The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Tony N]

Dear Molly,
John hearing a voice "as a trumpet" is not hearing a trumpet but a voice. The voice was, figuratively speaking, AS a trumpet.

You are confusing the trumpet for the voice.

He said he heard a voice, i.e. words being spoken.  A trumpet is loud and piercing. The voice was like a trumpet in that it was loud and piercing.

[Tony N]

Dear Taffy,
if we have already put on immortality then why did Paul write that Christ only has immortality:

1Ti 6:16 "Who alone has immortality"

The immortality we will put on and the incorruption we will put on is when the resurrection comes.

Paul said:
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."

He did not say: This corruptible has already put on incorruption and this mortal has already put on immortality.

No, friend, John was only in the day of the Lord in spirit, in the far off future and it was a vision, not reality.

[Molly]

Dear Molly,
John hearing a voice "as a trumpet" is not hearing a trumpet but a voice. The voice was, figuratively speaking, AS a trumpet.

You are confusing the trumpet for the voice.

He said he heard a voice, i.e. words being spoken.  A trumpet is loud and piercing. The voice was like a trumpet in that it was loud and piercing.

Yes, if you've ever heard that voice, its sound is just like a trumpet--bold, authoritative, clear as a bell, and very beautiful.   That is the commanding voice of God.  One is not inclined to argue with it.

What trumpet do you think Paul is talking about?  Somebody in heaven playing a real trumpet?  No.  When we hear the voice of God, we shall be changed.

But the trumpet is a battle sound.  It is God calling his saints to battle.  This happens at the beginning of the book--is there a battle ahead?  Yes.


For as many of you have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

--Gal 3:27

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

--1 Cor 15:53



"put on"
enduo

(in the sense of sinking into a garment) --array, clothe

[CHB]

Dear Taffy,
if we have already put on immortality then why did Paul write that Christ only has immortality:

1Ti 6:16 "Who alone has immortality"

The immortality we will put on and the incorruption we will put on is when the resurrection comes.

Paul said:
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."

He did not say: This corruptible has already put on incorruption and this mortal has already put on immortality.

No, friend, John was only in the day of the Lord in spirit, in the far off future and it was a vision, not reality.

Tony, I use to have a problem with these same verses until I realized that Paul was still here when he wrote this. It is evident that no one had put on immortality at that time. We honestly don't know what happened after John, do we?

If you notice, John was in a tribulation when he wrote Revelation.

(Rev. 1:9) John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ.

CHB

[Nathan]

For me guys, this is kind of where these forums can work against us in the sense that they become a battle of the minds.  That in it's own sense seems to fit well in the forum setting because much of what gets said is fleshed out on these pages and conversations. 

But it comes to a point where there is a distinction between fleshing out, and warring against.  I really don't "want" to converse with your mind because it's just going to argue back.  it's got it's own explanation for how it has fitted everything together and it doesn't appreciate concepts that request a total reversal of thinking.  I have a mind myself and I know how it likes to get into debates through natural reasoning. 

Dear Nathan,
I didn't know any of us were warring with each other. I thought we were all being nice and civil.
Maybe the warring is what you wrongly perceive that which is just not there?

By the way, God gave us minds for a good reason . . . to use them.
Rom 12:2 and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."

And how do we test what God's will is unless we use the mind to test His will?

2Th 2:2 that you be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the day of the Lord is present."

Oh oh, some believe "the day of the Lord" is present and came in 70 A.D.  :happy3:  :laughing7:

Hey, lighten up.

We are all brothers and sisters here and are all learning.

Now, back to Revelation.

John was in spirit in the day of the Lord. If he wrote Revelation before 70 A.D. then how could he be in the day of the Lord if the day of the Lord came at 70 A.D.?
The only way he could be in that far off future day of the Lord was to be "in spirit in the day of the Lord."

I think much has to do with unity.  My idea of "warring" doesn't mean that there is aggressive bickering and name calling.  "My" opinion of warring is, neither party is interested in crossing over to the other person's persepctive.  Every response that one gives to another is not for the purpose of finding common ground, but it's to counter every other response that was there previously.  That's why I say, there's a difference between fleshing out, and warring against.

One is trying to grasp because they are interested in seeing the same way.  The other isn't interested in seeing that way and continues to reinforce their reasons.  That's where I feel this has gone and I'm not really here to defend, I'm just trying to share what I see.  I don't claim to understand it all.  But the divide is quite great when one clings to natural and literal understanding while the other is pursuing the spiritual.  We are at two separate ends of the spectrum . .and I for one, don't wish to go back to pursuing the natural and traditional belief simply because there's no value there "for me".  This is not to say there is not value there or that I'm super spiritual above everyone else.  

The difference between where you are and where I am is, I've been where you are, and you can't see where I am.  It'd be different if you were where I am and I was where you are . . . in that sense then we could perhaps come to the bridge where on crossed over and perhaps the other could do so as well. . .but this is not the case.

The case is, I've been where you are.  I've taught Revelation from a traditional perspective.  I have a clear understanding of where you are coming from.  And I'm just trying to say, there's a whole other dimension here that gets missed when we focus on the literal aspect.

Okay, lets do this . .let's say that everything you say is true . .that it's all definitely going to all happen in the future . .. how does this glorify God?  What is the reason then for all of the spiritual implications, if the overall plan was to emphasize the literal devastation?  It takes us back to the fear factor all over again.

A comment was made about taking "some" things as literal and other things as spiritual . . . I don't feel comfortable about that either because from a UR perspective, one argument was, do we really think that God would leave our eternal end up to us in our limited and carnalistic way of thinking?  But yet we turn around and say that God expects us to take his word, which originated in the spirit, and apply it as we see fit . .. some spiritual, some natural . . .?

As for the comment about the mind . . .I do get that response a lot and I can understand why.  I do spend a lot of time trying to get people to let go of their own mind, their own way of thinking, it's been ingrained in us as to how to study, what to study, what to read and even how to apply . . .but what if it's already done for us and all we have to do is step into what's already done . .without needing to understand it "first".  

In my platform on this, I've never said throw away the mind and never pick it up again, what I "have" said is . .lay the mind aside so the Spirit can plant the seed and once the seed is planted THE SEED will grow and give birth INTO my mind . .. of course our minds play a role, just not at the conception when the seed is planted.

[Molly]

if we have already put on immortality then why did Paul write that Christ only has immortality:

1Ti 6:16 "Who alone has immortality"

You're getting warm..   :Sparkletooth:



26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

--Col 1

[Taffy]

Dear Taffy,
if we have already put on immortality then why did Paul write that Christ only has immortality:

1Ti 6:16 "Who alone has immortality"

The immortality we will put on and the incorruption we will put on is when the resurrection comes.

Paul said:
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."

He did not say: This corruptible has already put on incorruption and this mortal has already put on immortality.

No, friend, John was only in the day of the Lord in spirit, in the far off future and it was a vision, not reality.

Hi Tony
For we are IN HIM ,and He is In us making US one Body , a Spiritual One, HE being the HEAD.

:icon_flower:

[Zeek]

No, friend, John was only in the day of the Lord in spirit, in the far off future and it was a vision, not reality.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:


Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.




Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.




Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.





Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.





Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


Mk 1:14-15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

Heb 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Act 3:24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

1Pet 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Act 2:16-17 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.

Dan 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.


Mt 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jn 16:16 "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."

Jn 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also."

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Heb 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry."

Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Jas 5:7-9 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

1Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Phil 4:5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

1Cor 1:4-8 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, That you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, So that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.




I appreciate this thread, time for me to "bow" out. 

blessings

[Molly]

Dear Taffy,
if we have already put on immortality then why did Paul write that Christ only has immortality:

1Ti 6:16 "Who alone has immortality"

The immortality we will put on and the incorruption we will put on is when the resurrection comes.

Paul said:
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."

He did not say: This corruptible has already put on incorruption and this mortal has already put on immortality.

No, friend, John was only in the day of the Lord in spirit, in the far off future and it was a vision, not reality.

Hi Tony
For we are IN HIM ,and He is In us making US one Body , a Spiritual One, HE being the HEAD.

:icon_flower:

A hologram!   :bgdance:


Hologram
A unique photographic printing that provides a three-dimensional effect on a flat surface. Holograms cannot be easily copied ....

Three dimensional picture created with a laser.



"Holograms have other surprising traits as well. If you cut one in half, each half contains whole views of the entire holographic image. The same is true if you cut out a small piece -­- even a tiny fragment will still contain the whole picture. On top of that, if you make a hologram of a magnifying glass, the holographic version will magnify the other objects in the hologram, just like a real one."

[Nathan]

No, friend, John was only in the day of the Lord in spirit, in the far off future and it was a vision, not reality.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:


Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.




Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.




Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.





Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.





Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


Mk 1:14-15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

Heb 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Act 3:24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

1Pet 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Act 2:16-17 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.

Dan 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.


Mt 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jn 16:16 "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."

Jn 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also."

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Heb 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry."

Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Jas 5:7-9 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

1Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Phil 4:5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

1Cor 1:4-8 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, That you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, So that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.




I appreciate this thread, time for me to "bow" out. 

blessings

Zeek . .wow, that was an impressive display of work.  I hope you don't mind, but I've put that over onto a word document for sharing out in a class format.  Thank you so much for the effort you put into posting this.

[Tony N]

if we have already put on immortality then why did Paul write that Christ only has immortality:

1Ti 6:16 "Who alone has immortality"

You're getting warm..   :Sparkletooth:



26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

--Col 1

O.K. Molly, we are getting somewhere now.
Since Paul wrote that Christ was in you ('you' is plural) and since Paul also said that Christ only has immortality, he was not saying we are immortal YET.

In Corinthians was not Christ in us? And yet Paul still said they were looking forward to putting on immortality.

Please look at the context:

1Co 15:51-53  Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed,  (52)  in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed."  (53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."

The putting on or incorruptibility and incorruption has to do with the resurrection when the dead come out of the tombs, rise and meet those who are living and have been changed at the same time. It is an all or nothing scenario.

Paul did not say they were already changed, already immortal, already incorruptible. So please, lets not invent things which are not there.

So, since most if not all preterists say the Lord's day came in 70 A.D., how was John in the Lord's day if he wrote Revelation around 60 some A.D.?

[pneuma]

Hi all, did any of you think that it just might be that both views are correct?

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.


Is that not why scripture say He IS, WAS and IS TO COME?

[pneuma]

If the day of the Lord came in 70 A.D. and most if not all preterists say John wrote Revelation prior to 70 A.D. then how did John get in "the day of the Lord" before the day of the Lord came?

Tony didn't Abraham see the Lords Day even though it was a far future literal event?

[Zeek]

Hi all, did any of you think that it just might be that both views are correct?

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.


Is that not why scripture say He IS, WAS and IS TO COME?

I've often thot the Is,was and is to come might have something to do with this scripture




Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth (present, is), and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore (will be), Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

just some thots

[pneuma]

Hi all, did any of you think that it just might be that both views are correct?

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.


Is that not why scripture say He IS, WAS and IS TO COME?

I've often thot the Is,was and is to come might have something to do with this scripture




Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth (present, is), and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore (will be), Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

just some thots

yep I agree, just another layer to the onion.

[Nathan]

"In" context

Message Translation
The sun comes up and the sun goes down,
      then does it again, and again—the same old round.
   The wind blows south, the wind blows north.
      Around and around and around it blows,
      blowing this way, then that—the whirling, erratic wind.
   All the rivers flow into the sea,
      but the sea never fills up.
   The rivers keep flowing to the same old place,
      and then start all over and do it again.
   Everything's boring, utterly boring—
      no one can find any meaning in it.
   Boring to the eye,
      boring to the ear.
   What was will be again,
      what happened will happen again.
   There's nothing new on this earth.
      Year after year it's the same old thing.
   Does someone call out, "Hey, this is new"?
      Don't get excited—it's the same old story.
   Nobody remembers what happened yesterday.
      And the things that will happen tomorrow?
   Nobody'll remember them either.
      Don't count on being remembered.

Nothing is new "under" the Son . . . it's what we've been saying all along about the carnal nature of man.  It's limited.  The closest it can come to in creating newness, is repeating what is old.  "under" the sun . . .we are not "under" Christ, we have been raised up "with" him.  We are a "new" creature "in" not under . ."in" him. 

[Molly]

Hi all, did any of you think that it just might be that both views are correct?

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.


Is that not why scripture say He IS, WAS and IS TO COME?

I've often thot the Is,was and is to come might have something to do with this scripture




Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth (present, is), and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore (will be), Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

just some thots

Are those the keys to the kingdom of heaven?

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[Molly]

if we have already put on immortality then why did Paul write that Christ only has immortality:

1Ti 6:16 "Who alone has immortality"

You're getting warm..   :Sparkletooth:



26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

--Col 1

O.K. Molly, we are getting somewhere now.
Since Paul wrote that Christ was in you ('you' is plural) and since Paul also said that Christ only has immortality, he was not saying we are immortal YET.

In Corinthians was not Christ in us? And yet Paul still said they were looking forward to putting on immortality.

Please look at the context:

1Co 15:51-53  Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed,  (52)  in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed."  (53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."

The putting on or incorruptibility and incorruption has to do with the resurrection when the dead come out of the tombs, rise and meet those who are living and have been changed at the same time. It is an all or nothing scenario.

Paul did not say they were already changed, already immortal, already incorruptible. So please, lets not invent things which are not there.

So, since most if not all preterists say the Lord's day came in 70 A.D., how was John in the Lord's day if he wrote Revelation around 60 some A.D.?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

"is passed"

G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.



John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"


Romans 6:8

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.



2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
--Col 3

[pneuma]

What was will be again,
what happened will happen again.
There's nothing new on this earth.
Year after year it's the same old thing.
Does someone call out, "Hey, this is new"?
Don't get excited—it's the same old story.

Hi Nathan, that look more like someone's translation of what they believe the scriptures to say and not what the scriptures actually say.

Sun/shemesh is NEVER translated EARTH
There is more then just the earth under the sun, every planet in our solar system is under the sun

Nothing is new "under" the Son . . . it's what we've been saying all along about the carnal nature of man. It's limited. The closest it can come to in creating newness, is repeating what is old. "under" the sun . . .we are not "under" Christ, we have been raised up "with" him. We are a "new" creature "in" not under . ."in" him.

I guess it depends on how one understands under, we are indeed in Christ and Christ in us but the body is still under the head.

But my only point really was that I see all those things happened in 70AD, but believe they will happen again in the future also, thus what was is what will be.
That why I said both views are correct imo.

Some make the argument that it happened in 70AD, Tony says it is yet to happen, and I am saying it happened in 70AD and will again happen in the future. For Jesus Himself taught us to pray thy kingdom come, thus if His kingdom is already here the prayer Jesus taught us to pray is redundant.

[Zeek]

What was will be again,
what happened will happen again.
There's nothing new on this earth.
Year after year it's the same old thing.
Does someone call out, "Hey, this is new"?
Don't get excited—it's the same old story.

Hi Nathan, that look more like someone's translation of what they believe the scriptures to say and not what the scriptures actually say.

Sun/shemesh is NEVER translated EARTH
There is more then just the earth under the sun, every planet in our solar system is under the sun

Nothing is new "under" the Son . . . it's what we've been saying all along about the carnal nature of man. It's limited. The closest it can come to in creating newness, is repeating what is old. "under" the sun . . .we are not "under" Christ, we have been raised up "with" him. We are a "new" creature "in" not under . ."in" him.

I guess it depends on how one understands under, we are indeed in Christ and Christ in us but the body is still under the head.

But my only point really was that I see all those things happened in 70AD, but believe they will happen again in the future also, thus what was is what will be.
That why I said both views are correct imo.

Some make the argument that it happened in 70AD, Tony says it is yet to happen, and I am saying it happened in 70AD and will again happen in the future. For Jesus Himself taught us to pray thy kingdom come, thus if His kingdom is already here the prayer Jesus taught us to pray is redundant.

if it is to again happen in the future, and again, and again, then that means the Old covenant never vanished away, and that it continually is given life.   

For me, the old has vanished and is fulfilled in HIM; even though we may try to put ourselves back under it.

[pneuma]

eek gad Zeek that is not what I am saying.

Let me ask this question, is Christ going to literally come again and set up His kingdom on earth?

[Nathan]

Hi all, did any of you think that it just might be that both views are correct?

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.


Is that not why scripture say He IS, WAS and IS TO COME?

I've often thot the Is,was and is to come might have something to do with this scripture




Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth (present, is), and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore (will be), Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

just some thots

Are those the keys to the kingdom of heaven?

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Molly, don't take it out of context.  The keys are not just given to anyone.  It's the same with Revelation. . .I believe that's why it's so confusing and misunderstood . .it's not written to just anyone.  Revelation is for "bondservants"  it's important to understand what one is before assuming who it's really written to.

As for the keys you quote . . .read the whole context.  Christ just stated that "upon this rock"  The keys are what unlock that which the foundation is built on.  They are authoritive by nature, but only to those who have what I'd call the "Peter experience".  They don't come by way of flesh and blood.

Matt 16
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[pneuma]

Also is this a future event or has it already happend?or is it both as I maintain?


He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world;  the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;  the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;  42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[Nathan]

What was will be again,
what happened will happen again.
There's nothing new on this earth.
Year after year it's the same old thing.
Does someone call out, "Hey, this is new"?
Don't get excited—it's the same old story.

Hi Nathan, that look more like someone's translation of what they believe the scriptures to say and not what the scriptures actually say.

Sun/shemesh is NEVER translated EARTH
There is more then just the earth under the sun, every planet in our solar system is under the sun

Nothing is new "under" the Son . . . it's what we've been saying all along about the carnal nature of man. It's limited. The closest it can come to in creating newness, is repeating what is old. "under" the sun . . .we are not "under" Christ, we have been raised up "with" him. We are a "new" creature "in" not under . ."in" him.

I guess it depends on how one understands under, we are indeed in Christ and Christ in us but the body is still under the head.

But my only point really was that I see all those things happened in 70AD, but believe they will happen again in the future also, thus what was is what will be.
That why I said both views are correct imo.

Some make the argument that it happened in 70AD, Tony says it is yet to happen, and I am saying it happened in 70AD and will again happen in the future. For Jesus Himself taught us to pray thy kingdom come, thus if His kingdom is already here the prayer Jesus taught us to pray is redundant.

We're still not connecting on this.  The prayer . .for me, the point of the prayer is to release that which is already finished in the spirit, upon this earth.  But for me to release that which is in the spirit. . it would mean I would actually have to be "in" the spirit.  It's the spirit that gives life, this is my argument from the beginning . . .why would I want to focus on the repeat of something in the natural when the source is not in the natural, but the spiritual?

To dwell on the current state of your life is not faith.  Faith is seeing things AS THOUGH they are. . .not "as" they are.  In the spirit . .they are complete, in the flesh, they are not.  So dwell where the completion is, and release it into where the completion isn't.  It's also connected to Molly's reference of releasing and binding . . .it comes through revelation by way of relationship with the Father toward the Son.

As far as things repeating . . . there are patterns, yes . .on the one hand, your telling me that it did happen in the past, and it's going to happen again in the future . .on the other side, I'm being told it "has" to be something happening in the future "because" there is no place where it's happened in the past . .so which is it???

[Molly]

Hi all, did any of you think that it just might be that both views are correct?

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.


Is that not why scripture say He IS, WAS and IS TO COME?

I've often thot the Is,was and is to come might have something to do with this scripture




Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth (present, is), and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore (will be), Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

just some thots

Are those the keys to the kingdom of heaven?

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Molly, don't take it out of context.  The keys are not just given to anyone.  It's the same with Revelation. . .I believe that's why it's so confusing and misunderstood . .it's not written to just anyone.  Revelation is for "bondservants"  it's important to understand what one is before assuming who it's really written to.

As for the keys you quote . . .read the whole context.  Christ just stated that "upon this rock"  The keys are what unlock that which the foundation is built on.  They are authoritive by nature, but only to those who have what I'd call the "Peter experience".  They don't come by way of flesh and blood.

Matt 16
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Yes I understand that.  You say the keys are given to his bondservants--whom I will call his [Melchizedek] priests.  Such was Peter.  

I'm just asking --what are these keys.  And, are the keys of hell and death the same as the keys to the kingdom of heaven?