The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Tony N]

No the stones weren't in the water they were floating in the air, in the oxygen and clouds and came crashing down to the earth with a thunderous sound.

[CHB]

Hey All,

This is a great topic, one that we won't agree on until it is all evidently in the 'past'.  

I certainly don't have any educated or spiritual 'revelation' on this.  First, tho, let's make it clear that the book of Revelation is in the singular, one revelation, not plural...revelations.  I'm not saying this to say anyone who has stated it as revelations has an inferior position, spelling and grammar is certainly not everyone's forte and does not make his/her opinions/insights any less valuable

I remember reading Hal Lindsay's take on Revelation back when I was in Babylon.  I was amazed at his insights, lol.  Enthralled even.  It seemed so intellectual and I felt he had unravelled the thread.  Now I'm sort of back at square one.

To me, Revelation is something that has happened, is happening and will happen.  Just as the story of Joseph and his brothers really happened in the past, it keeps happening over and over in each overcomer during his lifetime, and then, I believe there will be a literal antitype with Christ taking the throne under God as did Joseph under Pharoah and then his family receiving special blessings with Benjamin (whom I believe represents the overcomers) having extra special blessings.

I believe what happened to Jerusalem was in part a fulfillment of Revelation plus prophecies in the Old Testament.  I also think there is much symbolic in it of what happens to each believer as we advance in our journey.  There will continue to be revelation until God is all in all.  But personally, I think there will be many more ages than just one or two before that happens.  The Bible does not reveal everything about God's creation nor, in my opinion, does it reveal everything about what is to be beyond the next few ages.

It always bothered me when people said that time will be no more.  I don't know how we can exist without time.  Time will no longer be an enemy for we will never fear that we won't have enough 'time' to do whatever we desire to do. We won't become 'old' and get sick, etc.  But for things to keep on 'happening' it seems to me that there has to be time.  Perhaps what I view as time is different to others' views of time. Sometimes the way some Christians describe the culmination of creation sounds to me similar to those who talk about Nirvana where everyone will be just one big consciousness with no personal identity.  What was the use of any of this if that is true?  Just because we will be in complete harmony with God does not mean that we won't have personal feelings or activities we like more than others.  I guess that to me is what makes Christianity so unique.  We maintain a personal identity even in the midst of so much harmony.

We all have such diverse opinions.  And that is ok for now.  Some of us disagree on the scope of free will, the trinity doctrine, consciousness after death, etc.  It is good to discuss it.  It is normal to get frustrated when we can't make someone else see our point of view.  I'm sure many of you will feel I have too simplistic a view of all of this.  Well, my brain is simple and I can only digest so much at a time.  When God wants me to change my views or come into new knowledge it will happen and not one moment sooner.  I've learned that.  Doesn't mean I am always content with that, lol.

Anyway, just an insert here.  Let the controversy continue.  It is a good place to see just how different we can view the scriptures.  I respect each one of you and know you all love the things of God.  I know I certainly can learn a lot.  You all seem to study more than I do lately.

Hi Scarlet,

I guess I would have to say I see things pretty much the same as you do.

I do think there is still more to come because we are still human and time marches on. As long as there are humans on this earth I would assume God isn't finished with us yet. Don't know exactly what is in the future but do know that whatever it is God has ordained it.

CHB

[Nathan]

Okay, your in a river . . .Jordan . .it means "descending" it's a picture of death.  Jesus was baptized in death and once buried, he birthed resurrection life.  The plant looks nothing like the seed.

In your place where they piled stones . . . there is a connection between there and Revelation again.  In Revelation, the Euphrates (fruitfulness) river dries up and makes way for the kings of the east . . .again . .that's us.  for me, that's a picture of the source that brings life to the earth (flesh) dries up and creates the avenue, it opens a door for the kings of the east . . .traditional teaching will tell you it's China as they are actually the neighboring country next to Israel . . .makes me kinda chuckle now at the idea of how we can get so caught up with our natural reasoning when in reality . .. God's ways are not our ways . . .he is spirit and sees all things from above, we are flesh and see all things from below . .and we end up at opposite ends with our understanding . .broken record time . . .but "walk in the spirit" and that which my mind called last is now first, and that which I think is least important . . .is actually most important.

Okay .  .so the first time Israel actually crosses this river of death . . . it's connected to my old man.  Ever hear of this one???  I think this is so cool.  Molly, this is what I mean by being able to see things I never saw by my own natural reasoning.  These guys knew how to move in God . .they carried him on their shoulders . .yes?  That's a picture of having the mind of Christ.  David didn't know this when he tried to move the ark on a cart pulled by oxen.  He thought you could usher in God's presence from one place to another by labor (oxen=plowing) and all it did was kill the good intentions when someone tried to actually use their laboring hands to steady the ark as they navigated it over their earth.

Oops . .back to the river . . . the priests feet had to "touch" the flooded river of death.  Ever stand at the banks edge of a river out of control?  That flood that hit here in June  . .they're calling it the flood of the century.  Neighborhoods right now, 6 months later, are vacant even now.  I can't imagine setting foot into that kind of force.  And that's what death is, it's a force "within our mind".  And as great as that force is, life is greater . . .BY FAR.  

But something special happens here beyond a nation being baptized in the river of death.  This river . . .as soon as the "walk" of the priests who had the mind of Christ now, as soon as their feet touched this intimidating, stinky river . . .the water stopped and began to pile up . . .and the river backed up and backed up . . .all the way to a specific city . . . a city called . . . Adam.  Doesn't that just blow your mind?  God pushed back the river of death that decended all the way from our origin.  How powerful is that?

Joshua 3:14-16 (message translation)
14-16 And that's what happened. The people left their tents to cross the Jordan, led by the priests carrying the Chest of the Covenant. When the priests got to the Jordan and their feet touched the water at the edge (the Jordan overflows its banks throughout the harvest), the flow of water stopped. It piled up in a heap—a long way off—at Adam, which is near Zarethan. The river went dry all the way down to the Arabah Sea (the Salt Sea). And the people crossed, facing Jericho.


On a side note, in reading Joshua 5, I find it very revealing that it says that they wandered in the wilderness of Egypt for 40 years until the 'men of war' were consumed.  The promised land is not heaven, it's a realm of rest.  There are battles to be fought and won, but not by us.  It was never God's intention that we take up the sword and go on the attack/defense.  If we are warring men, we will wander in the wilderness of our Egypt until our warring minds are consumed . . .can't be a warring mind if you enter into the realm of rest.  The first city they take is a double-walled city. Heavily fortified . . .that was me.  I had philosophies that I had cherished and built monumental walls around so that no one could penetrait my belief system unless they had a sizeable understanding to come against me with . . .or . . .unless there was a shout in the 7th day army proclaiming the city I defend belongs to the Lord . . .and my earth consumed my walls as the 7th day blast came flooding into my mind . . .what a great day to be alive in this generation to see God's mighty hand bringing down the walls.

[Molly]

That's beautiful, Nathan.  There are two sets of 12 stones here:  one, that was presumably not under water, but Joshua sets them up in the middle of the Jordan, the other, which is underwater, and Joshua carries them out and sets them up at Gilgal.  What about that?

Of course, Jesus begins his ministry being baptized in the Jordan by the last Levite priest, John the Baptist.



10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

--Mark 1



7I will declare the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, You are My Son; this day [I declare] I have begotten You.

--Psa 2

[Taffy]

But something special happens here beyond a nation being baptized in the river of death.  This river . . .as soon as the "walk" of the priests who had the mind of Christ now, as soon as their feet touched this intimidating, stinky river . . .the water stopped and began to pile up . . .and the river backed up and backed up . . .all the way to a specific city . . . a city called . . . Adam.  Doesn't that just blow your mind?  God pushed back the river of death that decended all the way from our origin.  How powerful is that?

Thats Cool Bro....as was the rest of ya Post Matey :icon_flower:

[pneuma]

But something special happens here beyond a nation being baptized in the river of death.  This river . . .as soon as the "walk" of the priests who had the mind of Christ now, as soon as their feet touched this intimidating, stinky river . . .the water stopped and began to pile up . . .and the river backed up and backed up . . .all the way to a specific city . . . a city called . . . Adam.  Doesn't that just blow your mind?  God pushed back the river of death that decended all the way from our origin.  How powerful is that?

Joshua 3:14-16 (message translation)
14-16 And that's what happened. The people left their tents to cross the Jordan, led by the priests carrying the Chest of the Covenant. When the priests got to the Jordan and their feet touched the water at the edge (the Jordan overflows its banks throughout the harvest), the flow of water stopped. It piled up in a heap—a long way off—at Adam, which is near Zarethan. The river went dry all the way down to the Arabah Sea (the Salt Sea). And the people crossed, facing Jericho.

Good stuff, not seen that conection before :thumbsup:

[Molly]

But something special happens here beyond a nation being baptized in the river of death.  This river . . .as soon as the "walk" of the priests who had the mind of Christ now, as soon as their feet touched this intimidating, stinky river . . .the water stopped and began to pile up . . .and the river backed up and backed up . . .all the way to a specific city . . . a city called . . . Adam.  Doesn't that just blow your mind?  God pushed back the river of death that decended all the way from our origin.  How powerful is that?

Joshua 3:14-16 (message translation)
14-16 And that's what happened. The people left their tents to cross the Jordan, led by the priests carrying the Chest of the Covenant. When the priests got to the Jordan and their feet touched the water at the edge (the Jordan overflows its banks throughout the harvest), the flow of water stopped. It piled up in a heap—a long way off—at Adam, which is near Zarethan. The river went dry all the way down to the Arabah Sea (the Salt Sea). And the people crossed, facing Jericho.

Good stuff, not seen that conection before :thumbsup:

The crossing of the Red Sea was the dry baptism of Moses.



21And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

22And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

--Ex 14





Here, at the Jordan, only the priests get their feet wet.  But they are not yet totally submerged.  (The ark is still carried on the outside. )  It won't be until the baptism of John that happens.

[Nathan]

I thought that might grab some of ya . . .it's what we call "revelating".  Molly you're doing it now as well.  Spell check hates that word.  But that's why I truly do love this realm, there is such a quickening in it as things begin to surface in my understanding and the connections from one nugget stream through the Scriptures and tie into another.  I used to get off track on what I considered to be rabbit trails until one day I realized . .it's all connected.  It's not a rabbit trail as much as it is a net.  And "in" the net, fish are caught and brought to the surface of the surging waters.  We are fishers of "men".  I used to think that only applied to  . ..  well . .. men.  But I can also see how the message in the net of the conversation also captures my carnal thinking and I can organize my thoughts . . .the good fish remain, the bad ones I can return to the muddy waters.

Even though this thread originally began in revelation . . .it's common that it ends up in Genesis.  In the garden there is one river with no name and no beginning . .it just "is".  And this river divides into four at the gardens edge.  On the other end of the book, there is another river . .but it's actually one and the same.  The garden and the throne are also one and the same.  And there are trees in both settings as well.  All this time, I've always seen myself forging out into the river so the current can take me where it chooses.  But the source of the water is where God is bringing us back to . .the place of our origin . .no longer are we in divided waters that split off one from another, but we are being drawn, like a trout in a stream, like a salmon in a river, we are being drawn to swim in the spiritual currents "up-stream" to the place where God began us, before sin manifested in our earth . .before our minds filled up with the curse of thorns and thistles . .God is calling the bride back to  the chamber room where reproductive life can flow from the wombs of our minds once again.  No more enmity, no more warring . . .it's all spiritual.

Blessings.

[ScarletWren]

Hello, CHB

It's nice to meet a likeminded soul.  I have read some of  your posts on other threads and noticed we do seem to have many of the same thoughts.   :bgdance:

Great post Nathan.  I am enthralled with those kinds of explanations of scripture.   :thumbsup:

Molly, if you are led to help people in the natural, then by all means do so.  There certainly is a great need in that area.  No one thinks or cares much for scriptural doctrine when their physical needs are not being met.  We each have different callings and should pursue that which God is leading us to.  There definitely is a place for that type of ministry.

I'm really glad to be here.

Peace.

[Tony N]

You keep saying things that are presumptuous rather than factual.  If you go back to that era I can promise you EVERYONE knew what happened to Israel.  They ALL were aware of the slaughtering that took place.  So to say that no one knew is just inaccurate.  It was the coming of the Lord's Judgment upon a nation that chose to "let his blood be upon us and our children".  It wasn't the coming of the Lord as redeemer or comforter, but judge.  The end DID come . . .otherwise they would still be making animal sacrifices today.

Nathan, I'll cut to the main point.
Jesus said:
Luk 17:23-24  "And they shall be declaring to you, 'Lo! there!' or 'Lo! here!' You may not come away, nor yet should you be pursuing."  (24)  For even as the lightning, flashing out from here under heaven to there under heaven, is shining, thus will be the Son of Mankind in His day."

You say it came when Jerusalem was destroyed. The Bible does not say Christ would come when Jerusalem was destroyed.

The Bible does not say the kingdom would come when Jerusalem was destroyed.

The Bible does say however that there are to be many different things occur BEFORE the kingdom and BEFORE Christ comes again. And Jesus said when it comes it will not come with scrutiny. In other words you won't have to squint your eyes to try to find it. It will be like lightning flashing brilliantly from east to west. It will be apparent to all who see it. Christ's kingdom which is supposed to bring down every kingdom is never said to be a spiritual, invisible kingdom.

So let's stick with the Bible.

That's half the problem . . .I thought I "was" but it doesn't seem to be working with you.

Check this out and see what happens this time.

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.  2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.  3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

First question . . .what stones are Jesus referring to?

And "if" you say the temple buildings, my next question would then be, if "they" saw the collapse of the temple to be connected with the end of the world, why are you having so much trouble with it?

Hi Nathan!  :hithere:
Let's step through what Jesus said must take place before these things would happen such as the casting down of the stones, His coming and the conclusion of the eon. After all, that is what the disciples asked Him.

Mat 24:1 And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary."
Mat 24:2 Yet He, answering, said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished."
Mat 24:3 Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
Mat 24:4 And, answering, Jesus said to them, "Beware that no one should be deceiving you."
Mat 24:5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many."
Mat 24:6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation."
Mat 24:7 For roused shall be a nation against a nation, and a kingdom against a kingdom, and there shall be famines and quakes in places."
Mat 24:8 Yet all these are the beginning of pangs.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they be giving you up to affliction, and they shall be killing you, and you shall be hated by all of the nations because of My name."
Mat 24:10 And then many shall be snared, and they shall be giving one another up and hating one another."
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall be roused, and shall be deceiving many."
Mat 24:12 And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling."
Mat 24:13 Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved."
Mat 24:14 And heralded shall be this evangel of the kingdom in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the consummation shall be arriving."
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"
Mat 24:16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house.
Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak.
Mat 24:19 Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!"
Mat 24:20 Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath,
Mat 24:21 for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."
Mat 24:22 And, except those days were discounted, no flesh at all would be saved. Yet, because of the chosen, those days shall be discounted."
Mat 24:23 Then, if anyone should be saying to you, 'Lo! here is the Christ! or 'Here!' you should not be believing it."
Mat 24:24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen."
Mat 24:25 Lo! I have declared it to you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 If, then, they should say to you, 'Lo! in the wilderness is he!' you may not be coming out' 'Lo! in the storerooms!' you should not be believing it."
Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 24:28 Wheresoever the corpse may be, there will the vultures be gathered."
Mat 24:29 Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory."
Mat 24:31 And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four winds, from the extremities of the heavens to their extremities."
Mat 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn a parable: Whenever its bough may already be becoming tender, and the leaves sprouting out, you know that summer is near."
Mat 24:33 Thus you, also, whenever you may be perceiving all these things, know that He is near-at the doors."
Mat 24:34 Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by."
Mat 24:36 Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."
Mat 24:37 For even as the days of Noah, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 24:38 For as they were in those days before the deluge, masticating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all away, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 24:40 Then two shall be in the field; one is taken along and one left:
Mat 24:41 two grinding at the millstone; one is taken along and one left.
Mat 24:42 Be watching, then, for you are not aware on what day your Lord is coming."
Mat 24:43 Now that be knowing, for if the householder were aware in what watch the thief is coming, he would watch, and would not let his house be tunneled into."
Mat 24:44 Therefore you also become ready, for in an hour which you are not supposing, the Son of Mankind is coming."
Mat 24:45 Who, consequently, is the faithful and prudent slave whom the lord places over his household to give them nourishment in season?
Mat 24:46 Happy is that slave whom his lord, coming, will be finding doing thus."
Mat 24:47 Verily, I am saying to you that over all his possessions will he be placing him."
Mat 24:48 Now if that evil slave should be saying in his heart, 'Delaying is my lord,'"
Mat 24:49 and should begin to beat his fellow slaves, yet may be eating and drinking with the drunken,
Mat 24:50 the lord of that slave will be arriving on a day for which he is not hoping, and in an hour which he knows not,
Mat 24:51 and shall be cutting him asunder, and will be appointing his part with the hypocrites. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth."

But Jesus doesn't stop there. He goes on into Matthew 25 and talks about being ready and about when He comes He is going to physically judge the nations as to how they treated His brothers during their great tribulation. This judging has not yet occurred. Christ has not come back yet, the consummation of the eon has not occurred yet.

So we see friend that all the above has not yet occurred.

I hope this helps clear up some things.

Tony

[Zeek]

This judging has not yet occurred. Christ has not come back yet, the consummation of the eon has not occurred yet.

So we see friend that all the above has not yet occurred.

I hope this helps clear up some things.

Tony

Nice scriptures, but as pointed out with many of the articles i presented earlier, one then could easily form the opposite opinion as you; because that is all it is; an opinion.


these listed articles again are basically Matthew 24 as seen from a fulfilled view. 

http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/intro_olivet_discourse.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/their_questions.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/gosp_preach_world.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/abom_des.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/great_trib.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/lights_went_out.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/sign_his_coming.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/this_generation.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/global_holo.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/3rd_coming.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/watch_be_ready.htm
http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/foolish_virgins.htm


to each to form their own opinion.  For me, by seeing the fulfilled in the "natural" world; has opened up for me the ability to look inward and the work of the LORD in me.  I was never able to see that before; having kept more of a view of "us versus them". 

blessings 

[Tony N]

Dear Zeek,
I went to the first link and the guy stated this:

John 18:36 (NKJV) Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

Luke 17:20-21 (NKJV) Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Could words be plainer? Jesus taught that His Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. Yet, so many still look for a future physical kingdom.

When Jesus said "My kingdom is not OF this world" He was saying it did not have its origins in this world.

Here is a quote from a venerable writer:

"Although usually there is no especial social or political order in mind when this term is used, there are times when it is confined to the present arrangement, which was inaugurated after the flood and will continue until the kingdom of the world becomes our Lord's and His Christ's (Rev.11:15). When the word is limited by the pronoun this we must not include the ancient world (2 Peter 2:5) before the deluge, or the worlds in the coming eons. To these many passages will not apply. Christ is not of this world (John 8:23), yet He is the very essence of the next. His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36) yet it dominates the next, for the kingdoms of this world will give place to His reign.

     "Our Lord's statement, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36), is usually taken to mean that His kingdom is not a worldly kingdom, but a spiritual one. But He did not say the world, in general, but this world, in particular. The fact that, at His unveiling, the world kingdom becomes our Lord's and His Christ's (Rev.11:15) clearly shows that His kingdom is a world kingdom. In fact the use of the word this should settle this point. It is a world kingdom, not of this world, but of that future eon, when He takes His great power and reigns."

"Such was the kingdom which the Jews were led to expect, and such was the sovereignty which our Lord heralded to them. That the displaced realms were real kingdoms on this earth is beyond dispute. The figure used is such as to leave no doubt that the coming kingdom will be the same. What we have today does not displace these kingdoms. It did not commence by crushing them as a falling stone. It is not a mountain in the earth. It is not the kingdom of the heavens. Quite the contrary! There are many governments on earth today, and their power is all based on the work of human hands. It was quite impossible for our Lord to mean any other kingdom than that spoken of by Daniel, for it would have cruelly deceived the people and misused the word of God. The kingdom of the heavens can only be that so called by Daniel the prophet."

"This world is a very different world from that which is to come. If His kingdom were like those of this world, then His slaves would have contended for Him, He would have rallied His followers to defend Him, and would have mobilized all His earthly forces in order to establish His throne. But in the next world it will be different. Then He does, indeed, establish His throne by power, but not with arms of flesh or human might. It is a heavenly kingdom and the powers of the heavens wage war with His enemies and will subdue them. Terrific inflictions from above, and a celestial army on white horses, clear the earth of His foes, while the few, frightened friends He still has on earth make no effort to seat Him on His throne."

  "We all, as citizens of the countries in which we live (unless we are without citizenship or sovereignty) are in the same position. We do not advocate the overthrow of the government by force, hence are not guilty of sedition, for we recognize the officers of the law as ministers of God (Rom.13:1-7), even though we teach that, in a future "world," which many of us now think has "drawn nigh," or, in the phraseology of the Authorized Version is "at hand," the world kingdom will become our Lord's and His Christ's (Rev.11:15). This does not involve the overthrow of all of the governments so that they will not exist in the millennium. The passage just quoted makes all one world kingdom. But such a world kingdom will exist before our Lord comes, under the wild beast, but it will include, not destroy the national governments. The nations will continue in the thousand years under the sovereignty of Messiah. " (A.E. Knoch Unsearchable Riches, vol.29).     

"Heaven is not called a world. THIS world began when this eon began, and will end at its consummation. When the next eon begins, there will be another world (system), and the kingdom will be of that world. And in order that it shall be so, Christ will fight and will kill many thousands of people. He will fight against the very kingdoms that are like Caesar's. The kingdom cannot come during this eon, for it is not of this world." (W. B. SCREWS, Unsearchable Riches, vol.29).

[Taffy]

Just thought to save Zeek the bother Bro..
Indeed the Battles In Not of the World, We fight in HIS kingdom as Promised.Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.


Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].


Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;


Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;


Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.


Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

:icon_flower:

[Zeek]

Dear Zeek,
I went to the first link and the guy stated this:

John 18:36 (NKJV) Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

Luke 17:20-21 (NKJV) Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Could words be plainer? Jesus taught that His Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. Yet, so many still look for a future physical kingdom.

When Jesus said "My kingdom is not OF this world" He was saying it did not have its origins in this world.

Here is a quote from a venerable writer:

"Although usually there is no especial social or political order in mind when this term is used, there are times when it is confined to the present arrangement, which was inaugurated after the flood and will continue until the kingdom of the world becomes our Lord's and His Christ's (Rev.11:15). When the word is limited by the pronoun this we must not include the ancient world (2 Peter 2:5) before the deluge, or the worlds in the coming eons. To these many passages will not apply. Christ is not of this world (John 8:23), yet He is the very essence of the next. His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36) yet it dominates the next, for the kingdoms of this world will give place to His reign.

     "Our Lord's statement, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36), is usually taken to mean that His kingdom is not a worldly kingdom, but a spiritual one. But He did not say the world, in general, but this world, in particular. The fact that, at His unveiling, the world kingdom becomes our Lord's and His Christ's (Rev.11:15) clearly shows that His kingdom is a world kingdom. In fact the use of the word this should settle this point. It is a world kingdom, not of this world, but of that future eon, when He takes His great power and reigns."

"Such was the kingdom which the Jews were led to expect, and such was the sovereignty which our Lord heralded to them. That the displaced realms were real kingdoms on this earth is beyond dispute. The figure used is such as to leave no doubt that the coming kingdom will be the same. What we have today does not displace these kingdoms. It did not commence by crushing them as a falling stone. It is not a mountain in the earth. It is not the kingdom of the heavens. Quite the contrary! There are many governments on earth today, and their power is all based on the work of human hands. It was quite impossible for our Lord to mean any other kingdom than that spoken of by Daniel, for it would have cruelly deceived the people and misused the word of God. The kingdom of the heavens can only be that so called by Daniel the prophet."

"This world is a very different world from that which is to come. If His kingdom were like those of this world, then His slaves would have contended for Him, He would have rallied His followers to defend Him, and would have mobilized all His earthly forces in order to establish His throne. But in the next world it will be different. Then He does, indeed, establish His throne by power, but not with arms of flesh or human might. It is a heavenly kingdom and the powers of the heavens wage war with His enemies and will subdue them. Terrific inflictions from above, and a celestial army on white horses, clear the earth of His foes, while the few, frightened friends He still has on earth make no effort to seat Him on His throne."

  "We all, as citizens of the countries in which we live (unless we are without citizenship or sovereignty) are in the same position. We do not advocate the overthrow of the government by force, hence are not guilty of sedition, for we recognize the officers of the law as ministers of God (Rom.13:1-7), even though we teach that, in a future "world," which many of us now think has "drawn nigh," or, in the phraseology of the Authorized Version is "at hand," the world kingdom will become our Lord's and His Christ's (Rev.11:15). This does not involve the overthrow of all of the governments so that they will not exist in the millennium. The passage just quoted makes all one world kingdom. But such a world kingdom will exist before our Lord comes, under the wild beast, but it will include, not destroy the national governments. The nations will continue in the thousand years under the sovereignty of Messiah. " (A.E. Knoch Unsearchable Riches, vol.29).     

"Heaven is not called a world. THIS world began when this eon began, and will end at its consummation. When the next eon begins, there will be another world (system), and the kingdom will be of that world. And in order that it shall be so, Christ will fight and will kill many thousands of people. He will fight against the very kingdoms that are like Caesar's. The kingdom cannot come during this eon, for it is not of this world." (W. B. SCREWS, Unsearchable Riches, vol.29).

:bigGrin:

[CHB]

Give a listen to this man, Mike Bloom. To the left of the page you will see many more sermons on this subject you can listen to.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4q4DFwcc_E&feature=related

CHB

[Nathan]

For me guys, this is kind of where these forums can work against us in the sense that they become a battle of the minds.  That in it's own sense seems to fit well in the forum setting because much of what gets said is fleshed out on these pages and conversations. 

But it comes to a point where there is a distinction between fleshing out, and warring against.  I really don't "want" to converse with your mind because it's just going to argue back.  it's got it's own explanation for how it has fitted everything together and it doesn't appreciate concepts that request a total reversal of thinking.  I have a mind myself and I know how it likes to get into debates through natural reasoning. 

There is a difference for me, between sharing what I can see and defending what I shared.  I think it's profitable for all when all share what they see, but not so much when we begin defending what we share.  What I see is, it's all spiritual.  To emphasize that much of Scripture is still going to happen naturally, for me is just not profitable.  It invokes the wrong motivation in people. 

I can't remember who posted it yesterday . .it was something out of Genesis where a guy's name was literally "earthquake" because it was in his day that God divided the earth.  This for me, is a HUGE deal . . .God divided the earth???  How?  When?  How much???  I want to know all the details of how "earth" was changed around.  But there is no explanation . . .what little explanation that was given is in the middle of the "begats" and they move on.  It's as if to say, the natural things REALLY have no bearing on spiritual truth.  Natural things do happen.  We are greatly affected by natural things.  Perhaps that was what Jesus was referring to when he stated it's better for a man to enter into the kingdom with one eye, than into hell with two. . . God isn't nearly as concerned with our natural state as we are.

So when it comes to these kinds of explanations . . .I much rather would like to see the spiritual truth because I know flesh profits nothing, but the Spirit quickens us unto life.

So bottom line, yeah, there was a literal manifestation . . .and I believe it ALL happened to THAT generation . .and I also believe that ALL those things mentioned in the quoted passage of Matthew 24 were also referenced here and there through the book of Acts.  Believe it or not I just preached on the six signs that must take place before the end will come . .which is out of this same passage.  And every one of them did happen.  But regardless whether they happened or they didn't . . .I still choose to apply the spiritual implication rather than dwell on the natural.

[Tony N]

For me guys, this is kind of where these forums can work against us in the sense that they become a battle of the minds.  That in it's own sense seems to fit well in the forum setting because much of what gets said is fleshed out on these pages and conversations. 

But it comes to a point where there is a distinction between fleshing out, and warring against.  I really don't "want" to converse with your mind because it's just going to argue back.  it's got it's own explanation for how it has fitted everything together and it doesn't appreciate concepts that request a total reversal of thinking.  I have a mind myself and I know how it likes to get into debates through natural reasoning. 

Dear Nathan,
I didn't know any of us were warring with each other. I thought we were all being nice and civil.
Maybe the warring is what you wrongly perceive that which is just not there?

By the way, God gave us minds for a good reason . . . to use them.
Rom 12:2 and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect."

And how do we test what God's will is unless we use the mind to test His will?

2Th 2:2 that you be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be alarmed, either through spirit, or through word, or through an epistle as through us, as that the day of the Lord is present."

Oh oh, some believe "the day of the Lord" is present and came in 70 A.D.  :happy3:  :laughing7:

Hey, lighten up.

We are all brothers and sisters here and are all learning.

Now, back to Revelation.

John was in spirit in the day of the Lord. If he wrote Revelation before 70 A.D. then how could he be in the day of the Lord if the day of the Lord came at 70 A.D.?
The only way he could be in that far off future day of the Lord was to be "in spirit in the day of the Lord."

[Taffy]

For me guys, this is kind of where these forums can work against us in the sense that they become a battle of the minds.  That in it's own sense seems to fit well in the forum setting because much of what gets said is fleshed out on these pages and conversations.  

But it comes to a point where there is a distinction between fleshing out, and warring against.  I really don't "want" to converse with your mind because it's just going to argue back.  it's got it's own explanation for how it has fitted everything together and it doesn't appreciate concepts that request a total reversal of thinking.  I have a mind myself and I know how it likes to get into debates through natural reasoning.  

Hi Nat

Flesh and spirit dont mix indeed , not when one sees the literal Only and those may see differently by means of spirtualizing.

One can not force anything on anyone bro, but  if  that which is  shared  by both ,or many parties can be respected , in how and what they understand, even in friendly banter, personally I see no Problem.

:icon_flower:

[Molly]

John was in spirit in the day of the Lord. If he wrote Revelation before 70 A.D. then how could he be in the day of the Lord if the day of the Lord came at 70 A.D.?
The only way he could be in that far off future day of the Lord was to be "in spirit in the day of the Lord."

We know he was in the day of the Lord because he heard the sound of the trumpet.


10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:...

--Rev 1



1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


This is the war trumpet, calling [the saints] to battle.

For John the Revelator, this was happening in the present.

But, I am with you in that I believe the natural is first and has to be completely accounted for before one can move on to the spiritual.


Malachi 3:2
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

[Tony N]

John was in spirit in the day of the Lord. If he wrote Revelation before 70 A.D. then how could he be in the day of the Lord if the day of the Lord came at 70 A.D.?
The only way he could be in that far off future day of the Lord was to be "in spirit in the day of the Lord."

We know he was in the day of the Lord because he heard the sound of the trumpet.


10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Dear Molly,
Thanks for bringing this up.
The voice was "as of a trumpet". John did not say he heard a trumpet. "As of a trumpet" does not mean "I heard a trumpet." It is like this: "When a baby cries it sounds like a siren." Does the mother hear a real siren?
When John heard the voice it was LOUD and distinct as a trumpet is.

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:...[/i]

--Rev 1



1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead were not raised incorruptible when John heard the voice AS a trumpet. If they were then we have no hope.

This is the war trumpet, calling [the saints] to battle.

For John the Revelator, this was happening in the present.

But, I am with you in that I believe the natural is first and has to be completely accounted for before one can move on to the spiritual.


Malachi 3:2
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

That's good, Molly.
What is sad to see is that if I take what Christ and John wrote to be taken literal then I am unspiritual. But I believe the Bible is filled with literal and figurative language. It just takes someone who is capable to be able to distinguish between the two.

So if John wrote Revelation in 60 A.D. how was he in "the day of the Lord" before the day of the Lord came if it came in 70 A.D.? if preterists are correct (which I don't believe they are) that the day of the Lord began in 70 A.D.?

[Taffy]

What is sad to see is that if I take what Christ and John wrote to be taken literal then I am unspiritual. But I believe the Bible is filled with literal and figurative language. It just takes someone who is capable to be able to distinguish between the two

Hi Tony
Hope your not quoting me  Bro.
for indeed ,thats Not what I said. :icon_flower:

[Tony N]

What is sad to see is that if I take what Christ and John wrote to be taken literal then I am unspiritual. But I believe the Bible is filled with literal and figurative language. It just takes someone who is capable to be able to distinguish between the two

Hi Tony
Hope your not quoting me  Bro.
for indeed ,thats Not what I said. :icon_flower:

Count yerself lucky there bro cause ifn ya did say what I thought you said I'd have to get a canoe and go over to your country and open a can of whoop arse on ya!  :laughing7:

Now then, back to the topic:

If the day of the Lord came in 70 A.D. and most if not all preterists say John wrote Revelation prior to 70 A.D. then how did John get in "the day of the Lord" before the day of the Lord came?

[Taffy]

What is sad to see is that if I take what Christ and John wrote to be taken literal then I am unspiritual. But I believe the Bible is filled with literal and figurative language. It just takes someone who is capable to be able to distinguish between the two

Hi Tony
Hope your not quoting me  Bro.
for indeed ,thats Not what I said. :icon_flower:

Count yerself lucky there bro cause ifn ya did say what I thought you said I'd have to get a canoe and go over to your country and open a can of whoop arse on ya!  :laughing7:

Now then, back to the topic:

If the day of the Lord came in 70 A.D. and most if not all preterists say John wrote Revelation prior to 70 A.D. then how did John get in "the day of the Lord" before the day of the Lord came?

The DAY of the LORD Tony, Is Christ Jesus,..ive listed the scrips early doors be it only a few ...

your looking for it...John was In It, Im in It it came without observation..who cares when he wrote it :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Dear Molly,
Thanks for bringing this up.
The voice was "as of a trumpet". John did not say he heard a trumpet. "As of a trumpet" does not mean "I heard a trumpet." It is like this: "When a baby cries it sounds like a siren." Does the mother hear a real siren?
When John heard the voice it was LOUD and distinct as a trumpet is.

The dead were not raised incorruptible when John heard the voice AS a trumpet. If they were then we have no hope.

I start with the literal.  And, to me this is extremely literal--John heard the sound of the trumpet.



10 I was in Spirit in the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ...


This is the same trumpet that Paul is talking about.


for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


What is that trumpet?  It is the voice of God!


53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

---1 Cor 15


As one of God's saints--Am I to put on immortality now or after I die?  Am I to put on incorruption now or after I die?

But we see that John, who is living on earth, saw the heavens open and was taken to the throne of God.


1 After these things I saw, and lo! a door was opened in heaven. And the first voice that I heard, was as of a trumpet speaking with me, and said, Ascend thou up hither [And the first voice that I heard, was as of a trump speaking with me, saying, Ascend up hither], and I shall show to thee which things it behooveth to be done soon after these things.

   2 And at once [And anon] I was in Spirit, and lo! a seat was set in heaven, and upon the seat one sitting [and on the seat one sitting].

   3 And he that sat, was like [to] the sight of a stone jasper, and to sardine; and a rainbow was in [the] compass of the seat, like [to] the sight of emerald [like to the sight of smaragdus].

--Rev 4



I take this all literally.  Did John die and was he raised from the dead?  Can corruption come before the throne of God?  Can a mortal man?


But we have the mind of Christ.

[Taffy]

Molly

I do word studies..verse studies..not just definition or context but how each term interacts elsewhere in the scripts..takes Along time...But you benefit the Bigger Picture

To Put, To clothe

we have PUT immortality ,and so say the scrips

have you Put on the Armour of GOD"which is Christ Jesus"..NOW? Did Paul or John et all?

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof]. 


Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Has DEATH been swallowed up In Victory..or are we still waiting for that TOO?

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 

Col 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


T