The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[martincisneros]

Revelation 6:13-17 (NKJV) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Is this talking about the end of the world in our future? NO! John is dealing with Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70. 

dear Zeek,
It seems you and I are at polar ends these days.
If Revelation has already come to pass, if that which you quote above has already come to pass then you must conclude that this has already come to pass:

1Th 4:13-18  Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation."  (14)  For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."  (15)  For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,  (16)  for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first,  (17)  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."  (18)  So that, console one another with these words."

If the above has come to pass then you and I are living on the new earth at this very moment and God and Christ are reigning in Jerusalem along with the 12 apostles and no nation is presently deceived for Satan and the false prophet are imprisoned.

We have no future resurrection to look forward to for all my friends who died are in their graves. All who were to be saved of the nations were saved prior to 70 A.D.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob somehow resurrected a couple thousand years ago and sat down in the kingdom which Christ ruled over but all the earth never saw it. It was a dismal failure. Christ came and went. He must have lied about ruling over the whole earth with the twelve. What an abject failure!

Hi Tony,

Many of the people at these boards either come from no background in being taught the prophetic Scriptures, or they've come from a dispensational premillenialist perspective and are either still coming from that perspective or honestly believe that God has moved them on to a different perspective.  Whether people here happen to be premillenial dispensationalist, amillenialist, or postmillenialist those perspectives would be entirely independent of the issue of whether or not many prophesies in the Gospels and in St. Paul's writings, and perhaps even in Revelation have been fulfilled.  I'm just asking if you really have the patience for all of the different perspectives that you're going to have to be dealing with here.  I was personally dispensational premillenialist until a couple of years ago when I started studying the book of Revelation for myself.  Not what others before me had previously said, but what the book actually had to say.  And the Concordant Literal, in particular, along with some help from Scarlett's, brought me to radically different conclusions that I'd never considered previous to those studies.  I'm personally postmillenial now because of my own studies.  I have some notes and web links on the book of Revelation board on this forum regarding the Postmillenialist perspective.  Unfortunately, many Postmillenialists are far more preterist than I'm comfortable with 'cause while I do see many, many of the prophecies as having already happened, you've got an excellent point about some [or actually many] of the details of Revelation regarding the earthquake of all earthquakes, etc.  But a Postmillenial perspective seems far more consistent with the truth of the Scriptures, with the revelation of UR, and the growing momentum of the Holy Spirit over the last century and a half or so.

Can you demonstrate why the 1Thessalonians 4 passage that you've repeatedly cited must happen around Revelation 4:1, if that's where you're coming from, or why you believe it's in the 11th, 19th, or 20th chapters if you believe that it happens Premillenially?  And can you demonstrate why Christ Jesus must be here during the millenium from any passage that's not as easily a reference to His High Priestly ministry at work over the Body of Christ, like in Isaiah 40 and other similar passages?  Zechariah's prophecy said that Christ Jesus came as King when He rode the donkey into Jerusalem.  The Kingdom wasn't offered and then withdrawn.  He came as King, and the Scriptures say that with His resurrection He is now Lord and Anointed; King and Priest after the Order of Melchezedec.  Were He not yet reigning, then He could not yet be subduing His enemies under His feet.  Are you Scripturally able to answer all 95 points of this:

http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml

And yes, all 95 of them because they cut to the heart of the matter on a premillenial belief which is found nowhere in any of the early Church creeds.  Not in any of them.  If you're wishing to limit the scope of this thread to proving that not all of the prophecies of Revelation have happened yet, then that's fine.  That's understandable and that requires a whole lot less of your time.  But please be respectful of the beliefs of others unless you have the time and patience to Scripturally address each thing that's come up in this thread, including in this post.

[Molly]

What year was the Book of Revelation written?

[willieH]

willieH: Hey Bobf...  :happygrin:

Sorry I missed this post, so thought I would resurrect it to give it its deserved answer!  :cloud9:

No offense is intended in my reply below... just a (hopefully - sobering) look at the message you take to the "world"...

The proposal of VENGENCE beyond this life, be it...

Why "beyond this life"?  If suffering beyond this life violates God's grace then so would suffering in this life.

The problem with this Bob... is that "beyond this life", is the SPIRITUAL ,not more of the FLESHLY... It is our FLESH which brings us suffering... as IT prompts us to disobey (James 1:14)

What is to prevent GOD's "grace" ...from enacting continual "life" scenarios, with AGENDAS of SUFFERING? 

What "GOOD NEWS" is found in the preaching to the world... a "GOSPEL" that proposes MORE  SUFFERING continuing in the next for most, but also says within it, that GOD is IMPARTIAL one to another?  And He lets a FEW, ...slide...  :dontknow:  The rest get the FURNACE!  :sigh:

DID YOU suffer TORMENT for your SIN bob? :mnah:   Do you think, ...you WILL?  :JCThink:  Somehow, I doubt that is expected by you...  :dontknow:

:omg:  Yet you shall preach to others, that if they do not "DO" as "DO YOU"... they shall meet FIERY INDIGNATION... and the FIERCE CHASTISEMENTS of an ANGRY GOD...  :mshock:

My parents LOVED me... they NEVER, within their sweet and UNSELFISH LOVE, did what YOU PROPOSE that GOD shall DO! (whose LOVE is MUCH greater than was theirs --- *GOD* ...who claims that He IS LOVE itself)...  :mshock:

Don't you see the HYPOCRISY in this?  This is basically what makes Christianity a hypocritical, forked tongue, ...laughing stock to the other 2/3's of the world... and WHY MOST of the 1/3 that claim themselves as messengers of the "GOSPEL"... shall find themselves amongst THIS GROUP:  (Matt 7:22-23)  (note that this verse Bob, ...states: MANY will "SAY"!)

Here's what they "SAY" to the world in behalf of JESUS:

"Sinner, ...GOD LOVES you with a LOVE that cannot even be understood,

...BUT...
He's gonna GETCHA and BURNYA for being the SINFUL HUMAN being your ARE, if YOU don't listen to ...ME..."  (even though you are a SINNER, because HE placed YOU of HIS DECISION -- IN ADAM, and within a human DESCENDENCY which displays that - "ALL have SINNED" - even before any are even BORN!)...  :mshock:

:Yeahright: What a bunch of  UNHOLY crap!   :thumbdown:

You are welcome to your belief Bob... I see JOY and LOVE as the message of the GOSPEL,  ...preach whatever is in your heart...  :sigh:

is simply proposing that GOD in fact, resorts to the "EYE for EYE" brand of "justice" that is in the Natural... which CHRIST plainly taught as REMOVED by GRACE...

The purpose of "eye for an eye" is to get even and get rid of.  God's purpose for judgment is not like that.

The JUDGMENT of GOD brings forth the knowledge of RIGHTEOUSNESS... (Is 26:9), not SUFFERING...

DIVINE JUDGMENT is of LOVE Bob, ...there is NO FEAR in LOVE (1 John 4:18)... and its BY-PRODUCT is knowledge of RIGHTEOUSNESS, not TORMENT! (Is 26:9)

When CHRIST revealed Himself IN and TO you, it was not a SUFFERING experience was it?   Sure, it was a SORROWING experience when you got to SEE who YOU really ARE (which is the product of JUDGMENT),  ...followed by JOY... (not TORMENT)

ANY proposals of teaching that we offer along with the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel and Reconciliation of ALL, must ALIGN with that GOOD NEWS... If not, the HOUSE is found DIVIDED...  and the message if scrutinized, is seen to be TWO FACED, and HYPOCRITICAL...

Grace and judgment are not in opposition.  God's judgment (chastisement) yields holiness and righteousness (Hebews 12).  Grace involves chastening (Titus 2:11).

How does Titus 2:11 establish your point Bob?  What in this verse notes CHASTISEMENT?

What makes you think JUDGMENT is about CHASTISEMENT?  JUDGMENT is about REVELATION!

SUFFERING in THIS WORLD ...IS the WRATH of GOD which IS [not WILL] come against UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and UNGODLINESS of men...  (Rom 1:18)

Where do you see CHASTISEMENT of Heb 12:6... as in the "next life"?  Verse 11 says:

11 ...NOW, no CHASTENING for the PRESENT, seemeth to be joyous, but grievous, nevetheless afterward it yieldeth PEACEABLE fruit of RIGHTEOUSNESS unto them which ARE exercised thereby...

In verse 6... It says:

6  For WHOM the Lord ...LOVETH... He CHASTENETH, and SCOURGETH ...EVERY SON... He receiveth...

WHOM does the LORD LOVE, is it NOT, those in THIS WORLD? (John 3:16)  ...does He LOVE people in THIS LIFE Bob?  If indeed He does (which indeed He does)... then this CHASTENING is occuring NOW...

What do you see in the sorrows and pain of HURRICANES, TORNADOES, EARTHQUAKES, FLOODS, HEARTBREAK, ABUSIVENESS, ADULTERY, FAMINE, CANCER, AIDS, HEART DISEASE, MURDER, RAPE, WAR, to mention just a few of the major SORROWS of EVIL that Men and Women suffer IN THIS LIFE, ...not to mention COMPLETE  DISASSOCIATION with our CREATOR for many, if not MOST... 

And this list is NOT ENOUGH for you and your observation of CHASTENING? ...that you must preach even MORE?  As we EACH are confronted in life with at least SOME, and sometimes MANY of these?

What kind of (so-called) "GOSPEL" message tells the world:

"after you suffer, ONE by ONE, the losses of ALL your loved ones to DEATH, ...then you shall experience the PAINFUL torment of CANCER, ...and to TOP it OFF, the SORROW of the depletion of your HOME and FAMILY to a hurricane...

Then tell them that GOD (who "REALLY LOVES you") is going to welcome you to MORE of the SAME - in the LIFE to come!"   :mshock:

As I said... take this message of NEGATIVITY to the world if you must... (which I believe is quite EXTREMELY CONTRARY to the meaning of the Greek WORDS translated GOSPEL [euaggelizo, euaggelion], let alone its message)...

As for me, ...NOT at all INTERESTED! :mnah:

2 Cor 5:19   The TRESPASSES are yet HELD against those of the WORLD...

Sins held against would yield permanent death.  God's plan involving judgment leads to life.

I agree, which is LOVE... in which there is NO FEAR! (1 John 4:18)

The law as a schoolmaster:
1. man breaks the law
2. the law ministers death
3. man sees he is blind, naked, and dead.

Were sins held against, that would be end of story.

But
4. The law leads us to Christ and when we follow Him we are raised from death to life.

What did CHRIST do with "LAW" Bob?  (Col 2:14)

He made PEACE of it, by FULFILLING it! (Col 1:20)  NOT create more SUFFERING for us in the life to come...  :thumbdown:

Rom 5:18-20  The JUSTIFICATION is seen as CONDITIONAL and dependent upon OBEDIENCE, not upon GRACE...

Righteousness is defined in terms of DOING.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 

But DOING is ultimately dependent on grace (Eph 2:8-20)
1. Faith is a gift from God.
2. We are His workmanship created unto good works that God ordains us to walk in.

God takes away stony heart, gives a fleshy heart, causes us to walk in His commandments (Ezek 11:19-20)

Paul labored, yet not Paul labored, but the grace of God that was in him labored.

No offense Bob, but you are speaking here much like a wind-up toy going in circles...  :sigh:

GRACE enters the LIFE, and IT produces the obedience within, WE do not OBEY of ourselves! ...Of ITS doing and ITS decision, not of ours...

We CANNOT come to the WORD, except by the decision and DRAGGING of GOD (John 6:44) ...so any area in which we fail, even though we CANNOT do anything about it...

GOD is going to chastise us with His "next life" DIVINE --"FIRE WHIP" :flamebreath:  ...Is that your "message of LOVE", Bob?  =  :spank: :punish:  :talkangry: :ticked:

Did JESUS say:  Go WARN them that if they do not LISTEN (even though I didn't give them ears to hear) ...that I WILL BURN them intensely, and JUDGE them and then GET THEM BACK for ALL their SINS...  and, ...oh yeah,  ...tell'em I, ...I "LOVE'em"???   :rolleye:

Is THAT IT Bob?  Is THAT what YOU get out of the WORD and command CHRIST gave to us to preach the "GOSPEL"?  :sigh:

Sorry brother, that is NOT the GOSPEL of PEACE (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15)...  :sigh:

John 1:29  The SIN in fact was NOT "taken away" for it remains a PUNISHABLE obligation...

People still sin.  Sin has not yet been taken away from the world.

Your vision here, is confined to the PHYSICAL and TEMPORAL... (that men "still sin")

The SCRIPTURES in various places and ways, say:  JESUS CHRIST ...TOOK AWAY... the SIN of the WORLD... (John 1:29 / Col 2:14 / 2 Cor 5:19 / John 19:29 / Matt 18:21-22)

That is an ETERNAL and COMPLETE statement...  which is not made according to the progression of the lives of men, nor of the chronology of "time"... 

"ALL have SINNED" (Rom 3:23) is a PAST TENSE statement, which includes millions maybe BILLIONS that are not even here, Bob! ...YET to be BORN, Bro!  They haven't even set foot on earth, yet they ARE SINNERS!  It's PAST TENSE!

It amazes me that most cannot see this... but... Then again, it remains GOD's REVELATION, not mine...  However, when you DO see it... you too will be amazed that you didn't see it before!  :mshock:

That men complete [by the manifestation of time] what has been SAID of them (Rom 3:23), does not REMOVE the FINISHED and COMPLETED work of CHRIST...  (John 1:29 / John 19:30)

I see that your message to be steeped in the grim report of future, "next life" torment, and misses the elements of the FINISHED and COMPLETED work of CHRIST's, filled with LOVE and VICTORY ...which can only be seen by eyes of FAITH, and requires the FAITH of the GOD of LOVE, as the SUBSTANCE to see it...

I think I'll end here... not much sense in continuing an OVERALL disagreement that I have with you brother Bobf, as to WHAT the GOSPEL is...  believe  and preach what you will... seeya at the "end"...  :friendstu: 

                                                                (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)


PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[martincisneros]

What year was the Book of Revelation written?

Dogmatists about the Babylon that's burning in that book being Jerusalem, since it's one of quite a few cities on 7 hills (including Rome, Italy and Bath, England), insist upon a mid to late 60s AD composition, while others say it was written in the 90s.  Those that insist upon an early dating will boastfully say that there were more than 7 Churches in Asia after 70AD.  But there were more than 7 Churches in Asia prior to 70AD, so that proves nothing. 

The likelihood on why those 7 Churches were selected as recipients is because of the spiritual function that those Churches held in Asia and not because they were the only 7 Churches in Asia or the most important based upon anything external in terms of their numbers or whatever.  Every decision that Christ Jesus makes over His Church is based upon the furtherance of the Anointing, just as He expects all of our decisions to be based on the Anointing and it's flow in the earth.  They were likely the intercessor Churches in Asia and were probably receiving the book as an interpretation of other tongues that they'd spoken.  I've had stuff supernaturally sent to me that wound up being the exact same thing.  Something I'd prayed out and because for whatever reason in Christ's administration of the anointings it wound up coming that way.  That's how I got my first copy of Winchester's Dialogues, and irony or ironies, A.E. Knoch's "All in All" book came into my hands based on a vision that I'd had 10 years earlier of a red book, or what I would interpret as red.  Don't want to get into it with anybody over online HTML color codes and being asked to pick my copy up again and say if that's really red based on an online comparison. :icon_jokercolor:

Besides, the monitor that I'm using right now for this computer isn't the greatest.

The earliest copies that scholars have of Revelation are from the 90s A.D.  But if it was written earlier, then either earlier copies will be found, or their having copies from the 90s might someday prove out the earlier date because of how much time it would have taken for copies to be made and distributed of that book.  But I personally believe that both sides of the dating debate oversimplify the reasons for the dating and don't factor in the Anointing and who the real prayer warriors were and why that would have been valuable info for them, so that they'd know that their 7 Churches would be revived at the start of Revelation 20 with the forcefully advancing millenium dawning upon the world as a result of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Revelation 19 depicted by the heavenly man of war. 

There's too many Biblical problems with Christ's return being at Megiddo, plus He still has to fulfill the time outside of Israel before Moses can set foot into New Jerusalem on New Earth.  Abraham's not heir of an earthly city, according to Hebrews.  Revelation 19 is simply the open door promised to the Churches of Asia and Christ doing prophetic battle with the sword of His mouth through His Church on the earth as the Holy Spirit fills the Body of Christ to unprecidented levels.  The third day that we'd live in His sight in Hosea's prophecy is on the New Earth.  First day is the world before Noah's Flood, we've been in the Second Day, and the third day is the New Earth where it says in Revelation 21 that death by flood and fire will never happen again.  Isaiah's prophecy says that lifespans on the New Earth will be the same as that of trees.  I could, conservatively and minimally, double the number of points in the 95 thesis against dispensationalism that I gave in my previous post.

As with every other book of the New Testament, the date that it was written is completely irrelevant to when the events within it would come to pass and to what Biblical doctrines that we're supposed to derive from it and supplement with it.

[martincisneros]

For anyone interested, this is a list of cities on 7 hills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills

[Taffy]

For anyone interested, this is a list of cities on 7 hills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills

Yo Martin

Go ye therefore and preach UNTO.." ALL"" the WORLD.... :icon_flower:

[martincisneros]

Go ye therefore and preach UNTO.." ALL"" the WORLD.... :icon_flower:

It's all I do, everywhere God opens the doors and pays the bills for it so that I'm able to owe no man anything but to love 'em.

[Taffy]

Go ye therefore and preach UNTO.." ALL"" the WORLD.... :icon_flower:

It's all I do, everywhere God opens the doors and pays the bills for it so that I'm able to owe no man anything but to love 'em.

YO................Preach the " light "  of Truth Bro   :icon_flower:  .....tis Known as Foolishness,  ALONG   the wisdom of this world, but the Hidden wisdom( foolishness) is from above...Christ truly IS FOOLISHNESS...sorta gets ya thinking egh BRO,
got to watch that wording.... :icon_flower:

br

[alihaymeg]

If I might,

     I would like to present a perspective that has been weighing heavily on my heart lately.
It seems as though we may be missing a big part of the plan. Before the future judgments and dispensations become relevant, it is necessary to understand what the ultimate goal and purpose of our existence here is.

It is my contention that it is folly to assume, once grace has entered our hearts, that we are excluded from judgment. Romans 14:10,13
10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 13...therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another...

Paul implied that we are being trained to be worthy to judge the world and even angels. 1 Cor. 6:1-8

1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?

2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

Paul seemed to present the perspective that we are to become perfected in love starting right here and now. Not that we are to wait for rapture or death to achieve this perfection. It is not something that happens all at once because of a confession of faith. It is the process of becoming purified by fire. The reason the analogy was used is because it was widely understood that the way to purify metal in order to make a stronger finished product was to heat it in the fire and burn away the impurities.

I believe that we are here to prove our metal, and that the fire is purifying us continually. 1 Corinthians 3:15 (Young's Literal Translation)

15if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

Therefore, our purpose here is to be trained to be worthy of judging all of creation even angels; In other words to become priests and Kings.

[bobf]

And He lets a FEW, ...slide...  :dontknow:  The rest get the FURNACE!  :sigh:

He does not let any slide. "Therefore, every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire"

DID YOU suffer TORMENT for your SIN bob? :mnah:

Absolutely.

:omg:  Yet you shall preach to others, that if they do not "DO" as "DO YOU"... they shall meet FIERY INDIGNATION... and the FIERCE CHASTISEMENTS of an ANGRY GOD...  :mshock:

Do as Christ commanded.  "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

My parents LOVED me... they NEVER, within their sweet and UNSELFISH LOVE, did what YOU PROPOSE that GOD shall DO! (whose LOVE is MUCH greater than was theirs --- *GOD* ...who claims that He IS LOVE itself)...  :mshock:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Don't you see the HYPOCRISY in this?  This is basically what makes Christianity a hypocritical, forked tongue,

There is no hypocrisy.  It applies to all equally.

He's gonna GETCHA and BURNYA for being the SINFUL HUMAN being your ARE, if YOU don't listen to ...ME..."  (even though you are a SINNER, because HE placed YOU of HIS DECISION -- IN ADAM, and within a human DESCENDENCY which displays that - "ALL have SINNED" - even before any are even BORN!)...  :mshock:

:Yeahright: What a bunch of  UNHOLY crap!   :thumbdown:

You are welcome to your belief Bob...

Luke 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

The JUDGMENT of GOD brings forth the knowledge of RIGHTEOUSNESS... (Is 26:9), not SUFFERING...

Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

How does Titus 2:11 establish your point Bob?  What in this verse notes CHASTISEMENT?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

The highlighted words "teaching" and "chastening" are the same word in greek.

What makes you think JUDGMENT is about CHASTISEMENT?  JUDGMENT is about REVELATION!

1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Where do you see CHASTISEMENT of Heb 12:6... as in the "next life"?  Verse 11 says:

Because for example Sodom & Gommorah will be resurrected and judged.  Their judgment will be more tolerable than Jerusalem's.  Therefore both Sodom's and Jerusalem's judgment will not be a fun-party. But neither will it be pointlness torment either.  It will be correction.  "....for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."

Bob: Paul labored, yet not Paul labored, but the grace of God that was in him labored.
Willie: No offense Bob, but you are speaking here much like a wind-up toy going in circles...  :sigh:

Take it up with the apostle Paul: "I laboured....yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

etc.

[rosered]

Go ye therefore and preach UNTO.." ALL"" the WORLD.... :icon_flower:

It's all I do, everywhere God opens the doors and pays the bills for it so that I'm able to owe no man anything but to love 'em.

YO................Preach the " light "  of Truth Bro   :icon_flower:  .....tis Known as Foolishness,  ALONG   the wisdom of this world, but the Hidden wisdom( foolishness) is from above...Christ truly IS FOOLISHNESS...sorta gets ya thinking egh BRO,
got to watch that wording.... :icon_flower:

br

:thumbsup:   :icon_flower:

  yes our flesh is that darkness /ignorance bro , got cha!  :winkgrin:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


2Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2Cr 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

[Tony N]

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Dear Zeek, Hi.
If you are inferring from the above verse that the ages ended when Paul wrote that, then all the things of Revelation came and went just prior to Paul writing that.

But what did Paul mean by that verse?

1Co 10:11 Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained."

What is it the believers attained to which will come to all mankind when the eons end? Is it not peace with God? reconciliation? salvation? being made immortal, being justified? being made righteous? etc?

The verse which you quoted has nothing to do with Revelation.

[Tony N]

Revelation 6:13-17 (NKJV) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Is this talking about the end of the world in our future? NO! John is dealing with Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70. 

dear Zeek,
It seems you and I are at polar ends these days.
If Revelation has already come to pass, if that which you quote above has already come to pass then you must conclude that this has already come to pass:

1Th 4:13-18  Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation."  (14)  For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."  (15)  For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,  (16)  for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first,  (17)  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."  (18)  So that, console one another with these words."

If the above has come to pass then you and I are living on the new earth at this very moment and God and Christ are reigning in Jerusalem along with the 12 apostles and no nation is presently deceived for Satan and the false prophet are imprisoned.

We have no future resurrection to look forward to for all my friends who died are in their graves. All who were to be saved of the nations were saved prior to 70 A.D.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob somehow resurrected a couple thousand years ago and sat down in the kingdom which Christ ruled over but all the earth never saw it. It was a dismal failure. Christ came and went. He must have lied about ruling over the whole earth with the twelve. What an abject failure!

Hi Tony,

Many of the people at these boards either come from no background in being taught the prophetic Scriptures, or they've come from a dispensational premillenialist perspective and are either still coming from that perspective or honestly believe that God has moved them on to a different perspective.  Whether people here happen to be premillenial dispensationalist, amillenialist, or postmillenialist those perspectives would be entirely independent of the issue of whether or not many prophesies in the Gospels and in St. Paul's writings, and perhaps even in Revelation have been fulfilled.  I'm just asking if you really have the patience for all of the different perspectives that you're going to have to be dealing with here.  I was personally dispensational premillenialist until a couple of years ago when I started studying the book of Revelation for myself.  Not what others before me had previously said, but what the book actually had to say.  And the Concordant Literal, in particular, along with some help from Scarlett's, brought me to radically different conclusions that I'd never considered previous to those studies.  I'm personally postmillenial now because of my own studies.  I have some notes and web links on the book of Revelation board on this forum regarding the Postmillenialist perspective.  Unfortunately, many Postmillenialists are far more preterist than I'm comfortable with 'cause while I do see many, many of the prophecies as having already happened, you've got an excellent point about some [or actually many] of the details of Revelation regarding the earthquake of all earthquakes, etc.  But a Postmillenial perspective seems far more consistent with the truth of the Scriptures, with the revelation of UR, and the growing momentum of the Holy Spirit over the last century and a half or so.

Can you demonstrate why the 1Thessalonians 4 passage that you've repeatedly cited must happen around Revelation 4:1, if that's where you're coming from, or why you believe it's in the 11th, 19th, or 20th chapters if you believe that it happens Premillenially?  And can you demonstrate why Christ Jesus must be here during the millenium from any passage that's not as easily a reference to His High Priestly ministry at work over the Body of Christ, like in Isaiah 40 and other similar passages?  Zechariah's prophecy said that Christ Jesus came as King when He rode the donkey into Jerusalem.  The Kingdom wasn't offered and then withdrawn.  He came as King, and the Scriptures say that with His resurrection He is now Lord and Anointed; King and Priest after the Order of Melchezedec.  Were He not yet reigning, then He could not yet be subduing His enemies under His feet.  Are you Scripturally able to answer all 95 points of this:

http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml

And yes, all 95 of them because they cut to the heart of the matter on a premillenial belief which is found nowhere in any of the early Church creeds.  Not in any of them.  If you're wishing to limit the scope of this thread to proving that not all of the prophecies of Revelation have happened yet, then that's fine.  That's understandable and that requires a whole lot less of your time.  But please be respectful of the beliefs of others unless you have the time and patience to Scripturally address each thing that's come up in this thread, including in this post.

Dear Martin, I will have a looky at the 95 theses and then get back with you.

Concerning your question, dear brother to me as to my bringing up 1 Thessalonians 4, let's have a look at it again:

1Th 4:13-17  Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation."  (14)  For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."  (15)  For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,  (16)  for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first,  (17)  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."

Please note that the next time the Lord was to come all the believers who had died (literally died) and were entombed would rise first and then at the same time, the living believers would be snatched together with them in couds to meet the Lord in the air.

I have heard some preterists state that the above verse is talking about when a person believes they meet the Lord (somehow in the air). But what is impossible with that scenario is that ALL the death who have died in the Lord and the living ones who are presently believers (not potential believers) meet the Lord in the air as a whole group all at the same time.

Now then, if the Lord truly came back in 70 A.D. as some claim (though to be sure no one has proof of this either spiritually or physically), then all those who died in the Lord as well as all the living have already risen from the graves and met the living believers and together met the Lord in the air and presently are with Him.

If that is the case, we are not under grace but under the law emenating from Jerusalem where Christ and the 12 have been ruling for almost 2000 years now (though to be sure, no one who has gone there has seen them since they've been in hiding all those years).

I'm not sure why you bring up Revelation 4:1 with the Thessalonian passage unless you mean by it that since John was asked to "come up" to the door opened in heaven that this means the fulfillment of the Thessalonian passage I just quoted. But it was just a vision and John did not literally go to heaven and did not literally meet the Lord in the air. Neither did John meet the Lord in the air with any of the dead who were supposed to rise from their graves for if Rev.4:1 is supposed to be the fulfillment of the Thessalonian passage then it fails miserably.

Does this help?
Now I will try to look at the 95 thesis and get back with you on that.
Thanks for being so kind too in your post!

Love,
Tony

[Tony N]

For anyone interested, this is a list of cities on 7 hills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills

I am a little curious why you give a list of cities on 7 hills when Revelation does not say the 7 mountains are cities but kings?

Rev 17:9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman is sitting on them,

Who is the woman? Babylon (Rev.17:5). In the vision Babylon is sitting on the seven mountains which are not really mountains but seven kings also called seven heads.

[Taffy]

 :thumbsup:

Yo Roseybud

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

That which is HID will be revealed, was promised

Mat 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Mat 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.

[rosered]

 WOW!!
  great connection bro!! :thumbsup:   

   His promises     cleansing the flesh and spirit  :winkgrin:
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let's cleanse ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit by becoming mature in our holy fear of God.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
................................................................................
  ................................................................................
Since we have these promises, dear friends, we need to cleanse ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit and live a holy life in the fear of God.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

[WhiteWings]

For anyone interested, this is a list of cities on 7 hills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills

I am a little curious why you give a list of cities on 7 hills when Revelation does not say the 7 mountains are cities but kings?

Rev 17:9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman is sitting on them,

Who is the woman? Babylon (Rev.17:5). In the vision Babylon is sitting on the seven mountains which are not really mountains but seven kings also called seven heads.

I think mountain simply means high place. Leaders are in high places.

Revelation 17:4  And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,

Purple and scarlet perhaps point to a religious leader?
The best article I found on this subject concludes de woman in the pope (likely the current one)
In that article the mountains are groups on names.

[CHB]

Now then, if the Lord truly came back in 70 A.D. as some claim (though to be sure no one has proof of this either spiritually or physically), then all those who died in the Lord as well as all the living have already risen from the graves and met the living believers and together met the Lord in the air and presently are with Him.

If that is the case, we are not under grace but under the law emenating from Jerusalem where Christ and the 12 have been ruling for almost 2000 years now (though to be sure, no one who has gone there has seen them since they've been in hiding all those years).

Hi Tony,

I have thought about what you say above and it does seem like Christ came back and there was a resurrection after John, or during John's life time. What if??? and I say IF, Jesus came back and there was a resurrection in John's day and these are the saints that it says that Christ will bring with him when he comes again (1 Thess.3:13) (Zech. 14:5). (Joel 3:11). There are so many verses that point to this.

What IF Christ came back and took all the saints back with him in John's day and will come back and THEN set up an earthly kingdom? What IF the saints have been with God for two thousand years and are being trained to do a job in the kingdom of God, still future?

Maybe there are a lot to be fulfilled yet but there are so many scriptures that speak of Christ coming back soon and they all point to the time of the apostles.  (Luke 8:27) says "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God". Christ said "if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee"? Could this have been John?

Look at this verse. (1Cor. 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ, {then}the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ at his coming.

I put a coma after Christ because how could Christ be a firstfruits, plural? Wouldn't he be a firstfruit? We would still have a resurrection and maybe an earthly kingdom that is future.

CHB

[Zeek]

The verse which you quoted has nothing to do with Revelation.

It has everything imo, to do with Revelation.  


Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.




Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

.  
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.  


Rom 5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;  


Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  


Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 

2Cr 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.  


2Cr 7:4 Great [is] my boldness of speech toward you, great [is] my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation. 

1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.  




Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.


Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Revelation is all about casting out the bondwoman.  IN WITH The NEW

For me, I don't see Revelation as some future time for God to deal with Israel.  I don't see the "parenthetical" church age in the same way you do.  

But praise God we both see the LOVE of the FATHER.

[Taffy]

Enjoyed that  post Zeek :icon_flower:

[rosered]

 
  and I as well
    Believe that Jesus comes many times to many folks   in the Spirit and Truth   all the time NOW ! TODAY this minute with His saints /holy ones
ministering to us  and judging us chasting us  etc .  the key that opens heaven , which is His peace and His joy and  His Holy Spriit  anlong with the Fathers of course  :thumbsup:
  CHB
  GOOD post too , Jesus IS  the RESSURECTION  and the life    could it be any plainer than that ? yeee haaa!

[Tony N]

Now then, if the Lord truly came back in 70 A.D. as some claim (though to be sure no one has proof of this either spiritually or physically), then all those who died in the Lord as well as all the living have already risen from the graves and met the living believers and together met the Lord in the air and presently are with Him.

If that is the case, we are not under grace but under the law emenating from Jerusalem where Christ and the 12 have been ruling for almost 2000 years now (though to be sure, no one who has gone there has seen them since they've been in hiding all those years).

Hi Tony,

I have thought about what you say above and it does seem like Christ came back and there was a resurrection after John, or during John's life time. What if??? and I say IF, Jesus came back and there was a resurrection in John's day and these are the saints that it says that Christ will bring with him when he comes again (1 Thess.3:13) (Zech. 14:5). (Joel 3:11). There are so many verses that point to this.

Hi CHB,
Where in the Bible does it say Christ came back and there was a resurrection during John's life time? If there was a resurrection, why is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc. still in their tombs?
Also, The Lord coming with His saints cannot be any saints in heaven because there are no saints in heaven even today. The saints He comes with are from the vantage point of the prophet being on the earth and seeing the Lord coming while He is on the earth and the saints coming out of their tombs or while alive and coming with Him.
Again, if the Lord came back after Paul wrote Thessalonians which was pre-70A.D. and Paul said that when the Lord returns they, the living would be changed and those dead would be brought to life, well, it never happened. But if it did, we are on the new earth by now and Christ and God are ruling with the 12 apostles in Jerusalem on the earth PHYSICALLY. And righteousness covers the whole earth (which I sincerely doubt is if we look at Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe, Pol Pot, etc). If this is the new earth then Christ fails at reigning over the nations and so does God as do the 12 and 144,000 etc.

CHB wrote: What IF Christ came back and took all the saints back with him in John's day and will come back and THEN set up an earthly kingdom? What IF the saints have been with God for two thousand years and are being trained to do a job in the kingdom of God, still future?

Friend, I don't deal with "what ifs." After John wrote Revelation he lived quite a while so we know he wasn't taken. If Christ came back in John's day then Paul's prophecy of the saints being changed etc. has already occurred and we are not under grace but under the thumb of the 12 apostles ruling over the nations with an iron club. The only time believers of the nations are taken out is when "the complement of the nations may be entering" (Romans 11:25). Since this has not come to pass yet, (the filling up of the body of Christ to completion) then we know Christ has not returned yet.

CHB wrote: Maybe there are a lot to be fulfilled yet but there are so many scriptures that speak of Christ coming back soon and they all point to the time of the apostles.  (Luke 8:27) says "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death till they see the kingdom of God". Christ said "if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee"? Could this have been John?

Tony's reply:
That's Matthew 16:28 not Luke 8:27.
But Jesus said he really didn't know the hour or the day of His return:

Mat 24:36  "Now, concerning that day and hour no one is aware, neither the messengers of the heavens, nor the Son; except the Father only."

And there was the secret administration given to Paul and the secret of Israel being set aside which was not revealed at all in the Scriptures except to Paul, so all bets were off as to the Kingdom coming.

Look at this verse. (1Cor. 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ, {then}the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ at his coming.

I put a coma after Christ because how could Christ be a firstfruits, plural? Wouldn't he be a firstfruit? We would still have a resurrection and maybe an earthly kingdom that is future.

CHB

Yes, in the Concordant Literal New Testament and the Greek Text "firstfruit" is singular and should be "Firstfruit."

[rosered]

    the  HEAD CHRIST is made of all first fruit  in the begining  the many that rule and reign   with Christ right now .. :icon_flower:
  Christ/ annointed .

[Tony N]

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,



  My Bible says John  was IN the SPIRIT ON THE LORDS DAY ..   In  and on  being the same words!

Sorry to have to say this rosered but your bible is just wrong.
Look at any Greek text from which we get the Bible. The Greek text says: I John was in (Grk. en) spirit in (Grk. en) the Lord's day."
The Greek word for "in" is "en."
The Greek word for "on" is "epi."
Epi is absent.

Better get a better bible.

ho ho ho !!  come on it means the same thing !!!  :mshock:
Literally "epi" means "upon" 1909
epi
epi
ep-ee'
a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).
1722
en
en
en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between eiV - eis 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:--about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (... sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.


 this is silly  Tony to prove a point   ?   John  was in the  Holy  Spirit seeing all these things

O.K. rosered have it your way. This is the Burger King of Scriptures where you can have it any way you desire. Here is a burger king crown for you too :icon_queen:
LOL

Now then, if you believe In means On by all means go through the Scriptures and everywhere "in" is just put "on" in its place. I won't look so silly then.

If God says Jesus was in a house, am I to suppose he was on the house?
If a demon was in a person was it on the person?
If the pigs jumped in the lake did they somehow jump on it and walk on water?
Did Peter jump out of the boat in the water or on the water naked?
Was Jesus born in Bethlehem or on it?

John was IN spirit IN the Lord's day. The Lord's day is yet future. It has not come yet. He was not in spirit on Sunday.

The two Greek words en and epi don't mean the same thing. en means "in" and "epi" means "on."

If God wanted John to use "epi" he would have been "on spirit on the Lord's day." LOL

[Taffy]

John was IN spirit IN the Lord's day. The Lord's day is yet future. It has not come yet. He was not in spirit on Sunday.

so what is the Lords Day Tony.I concur Not a Sunday, WHAT is it, where can we find it in the scripis,,just Revelation? It ? ...then maybe we can Discuss what Happens In\on IT?

What say you T?

I say the Lords DAY Is Christ, did ya ever Notice that the LORDS DAY Got LORD in IT?

Ever Notice we are IN the LORD and the LORD is IN us?..is that In suffice for you?

Im a Simple type of Guy T, so can we start with Basics before we Move to your Level?
:icon_flower: