Chronology of satan.

[Kevin]

This is a statement question.

This is somewhat a belief, but not firmed up yet.

_____________________________________
MS Word doc attached:

Chronology of satan
Using the Word as a road map

I am far from the scholars I have experienced reading on the WEB. I just try to do and study what I am lead to. Writing somehow directs me, as does prayer, and studying.

This study is specific to where satan physically and spiritually resided and resides now. This is open for discussion. I was not looking for this information. It was not even a question to me at that time. I expect to learn and be exposed too much by putting this in writing.

I believed what was commonly taught or preached. That satan, like in "Job", could ask for permission from God to test a person. If God wanted a person tested by satan, then it was approved. I currently believe this is the old Covenant.

If this was true in today's world, the new Covenant, satan would then have the same authority as he did in the case of "Job".

I believed satan could come after me like in "Job". With God permission. My only defense was the New Testament verses I had learned or heard that satan had no authority. Jesus Christ has conquered satan and that is that. But there was always the "Job" question?

Even though I never said it, even to myself, I thought, in that silent place in my spirit, "how could my Father allow this"?

Key point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.

Bible used: King James Version;
Reference: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, [SC], Red Letter Addition.

This is the introduction about satan. God had told Adam prior to this that he could eat of any tree in the garden except the tree of Good and Evil and that if he did he would die. It is accepted understanding that God meant Spiritual death, although this was not spelled out. Eve did not exist at this time, so it is left to deduction that Adam told Eve of this 1 Command that they were to keep.

This is the 1st command God gave to Adam. This has to be read carefully and understood. At this time Eve did not exist.

Ge 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;
the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,
and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Ge 2:15
And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Ge 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man,
saying,
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Ge 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This is part 2. Eve had been created by this time.

Ge 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.
And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said,
Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Ge 3:2
And the woman said unto the serpent,
We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Ge 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

The information here is incomplete, she does not say the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, just the consequences. Is this important, I don't know?

Ge 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Ge 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be [as gods], [knowing good and evil.]

This is satan turning God's creation against him for the 1st time. Question is, what is the nature of this situation?
This is original sin, before this time there was no sin, no knowledge of what was good and what was evil. The original sin is disobedience to God's Word. The first sin and the sin that leads to all other sins.

The Book of Job is next. This is important because it shows satan having direct access to God.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered * my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:4
And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

The next verses are from Ezekiel. Much of this Book is a prophecy about events in the New Testament. This is a profile of satan, or satan's spirit. The specific verse to note is 28:17.

Eze 28:1 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffic hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Eze 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:
therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

This is the main verse in the Old and New Testament, that satan will be cast down to the ground, earth, the world.

Eze 28:17
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
 
There is much more in this chapter, well worth reading, but I am going to move on.

New Testament:
I am including more passages than are required:

Lu 10:17
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

This is the main verse:
Lu 10:18
And he [Christ] said unto them,
I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

I believe this is just what it says; Christ saw satan cast down to earth, during his time on earth, before the time of this verse.

This came to me while studding Revelations.

Another point in time.

Jd 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

On to Revelations:

I am including more verses than are needed. I have been through all of Rev 12, using Strong's Concordance, and much study. There are many debates regarding Revelations that I will not get into. I am going to delete any verses that do not address this question of chronology. I recommend all of 12 be studied. SC is required due to technical translations questions.

Rev 12:4
And his tail drew the third [satan's crew – fallen angels] part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon [satan according to SC.] stood before the [Mary according to SC.] woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

This is the final verse in the Bible regarding this lesson. satan was excommunicated from Heaven, and has, as of this time, no place in Heaven, meaning access to God, because and only because of what Jesus Christ accomplished.

Rev 12:8
And Prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

More information:
Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
Now is come salvation, and strength,
and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,
which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, [ Mary ]
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Just one of my favor verses. I have to keep in mind, when I don't, I usually find myself in trouble I need not be in.

1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

[Craig]

Nice theory. Let us see what more you are sharing. I have studied this too, I want to know what you think Satan is.

[Kevin]

Simplistic answer; a spirit, opposite, completely of 1st Cor. 10, the Love of Abba, agape, a complete liar,
complete opposite of the Holy Spirit, Ruwachodesh.
I am keeping it simple, KISS, hoping for input on the original or base question,

Does satan have the same access to God, in the NT, as the Old?
Trying to keep the question on track.

Respectfully,

Kevin.

[rosered]

Kevin wrote ;

I believed what was commonly taught or preached. That satan, like in "Job", could ask for permission from God to test a person. If God wanted a person tested by satan, then it was approved. I currently believe this is the old Covenant.

If this was true in today's world, the new Covenant, satan would then have the same authority as he did in the case of "Job".

I believed satan could come after me like in "Job". With God permission. My only defense was the New Testament verses I had learned or heard that satan had no authority. Jesus Christ has conquered satan and that is that. But there was always the "Job" question?

Hi Kevin ,
  I believe that satan still asks permission  to sift /test
  just as Jesus told Peter  to his face satan desires to have you

Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



luke 22  NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

33But he said to Him, "Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!"

34And He said, "I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me."



  sift is Greek for G1809 ἐξαιτέω Transliteration
exaiteō
Pronunciation

eks-ī-te'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

middle voice from G1537 and G154

TDNT Reference
1:194,*


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to ask from, demand of

a) to ask or beg for one's self, to ask that one be given up to one from the power of another

b) in a good sense,

1) to beg one from another

2) ask for the pardon

3) the safety of some one

c) in a bad sense

1) for torture

2) for punishment

What I find interesting about JOB   AND PETER is that both spoke with the Wisdom of God , they had  assurance  and  integrity  in what they spoke  and thought , But the Lord knew better   in both cases the Old and New Covenants
   the thing is    there was a turning from the rightous path Jesus explains  in Peters case and a denial  that is not present in Jobs case ?

  I  do agree  that satan is a spirit  of adversity  that enters the hearts/ minds of men / women  that  cause  destruction  of the flesh and that the spirit might be saved and made better and stronger  in the  Lords will/ desire for us ...  Judas  a good example of  entering the heart ...
Jhn 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him

  sin is error,  missing the mark , share in   going astray

  there is a   narrow Path that seems easy to get off of  to me that Path of Righteous God   , it is called the  WAY  in  Acts ...

[Craig]

I cannot answer that question directly.

Heaven is our hearts and that is where the Kingdom of God reigns. For those who give Satan a foothold, he still has access to the throne. There is still a war in heaven, as the serpent tries to keep his reign but is cast out through the victory of Jesus Christ in our lives. The angels are symbols of prophets, saints, the Ambassadors of Christ sharing by our words and deeds the good news of our salvation. When the 72 were sent out, they healed the sick and cast out demons as they trembled at the Name of Jesus. On this report Jesus replied, "I was watching Satan cast out of heaven like lightning.*"

_{Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.}

[Kevin]

luke 22  NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.

weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.

Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;

SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.

[Kevin]

I could be wrong, but I think you did answer it, in part, in you own words directly.

I cannot answer that question directly.

Heaven is our hearts and that is where the Kingdom of God reigns. For those who give Satan a foothold, he still has access to the throne. There is still a war in heaven, as the serpent tries to keep his reign but is cast out through the victory of Jesus Christ in our lives. The angels are symbols of prophets, saints, the Ambassadors of Christ sharing by our words and deeds the good news of our salvation. When the 72 were sent out, they healed the sick and cast out demons as they trembled at the Name of Jesus. On this report Jesus replied, "I was watching Satan cast out of heaven like lightning.*"

_{Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.}

[Molly]

luke 22  NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.

weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.

Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;

SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.

So this sounds like satan is still 'in heaven' at this point because he is asking permission.

But, once he is thrown out of heaven--he no longer asks permission?


8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

--1Peter 5

"resist" [him]

G436
ἀνθίστημι
anthistēmi
anth-is'-tay-mee
From G473 and G2476; to stand against, that is, oppose: - resist, withstand.

[Paul Hazelwood]

luke 22  NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.

weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.

Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;

SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.

Sifting Grain is actually a positive thing.  However, most do not relate the metaphor to physically aware feeling beings.  Think about it.   It may be a positive thing, but we probably will not feel or think it is so while it is happening.



This is the word that gets translated to "claims" "asks permission" 

G1809  exaiteomai  ex-ahee-teh'-om-ahee

middle voice from G1537 and G154;

to demand (for trial):--desire.


The two root modifiers

G1537  ek  ek
or    ex  ex

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion
proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or
remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of),
exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), +
grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because,
by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth,
through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.\


G154  aiteo  ahee-teh'-o

of uncertain derivation;

to ask (in genitive case):--ask, beg, call for, crave, desire, require. Compare
G4441.



I'm not  a scholar, but usage and the biblical position Satan is in makes  "demanding permission"  more accurate.

Satans purpose is to do that, he goes around looking for who to devour.  While asking permission is still not unscriptural, it places a soft perspective to what its saying. I think the demanding emphasis is more accurate.

[Molly]

[satan has] "desired" [to have you]

G1809
ἐξαιτέομαι
exaiteomai
ex-ahee-teh'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1537 and G154; to demand (for trial): - desire.


satan is a prosecutor, isn't he?  an accuser.

Here he is demanding to bring Peter to trial and accuse him and convict him [of betrayal of Christ].


Doesn't this tie in with the enemies of God given opportunity to blaspheme the name of the LORD?

Peter flunks, he is convicted, and then, ...he repents.


Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

[Kevin]

Molly,
Hi.

I am trying to keep this on track. All input is welcome.
I am in agreement with the role of satan and his servants and follower.
The tread I am trying to track is stated again below. It is soo easy to get off track, de-railed.

Key point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.

[satan has] "desired" [to have you]
G1809
ἐξαιτέομαι
exaiteomai
ex-ahee-teh'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1537 and G154; to demand (for trial): - desire.
satan is a prosecutor, isn't he?  an accuser.
Here he is demanding to bring Peter to trial and accuse him and convict him [of betrayal of Christ].
Doesn't this tie in with the enemies of God given opportunity to blaspheme the name of the LORD?
Peter flunks, he is convicted, and then, ...he repents.
Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Your brother in Christ.
Kevin

[Kevin]

Paul,

I am trying to keep this on track. All input is welcome.
I am in agreement with the role of satan and his servants and follower.
The tread I am trying to track is stated again below.
It is soo easy to get off track, de-railed.

Chronology:
Key point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.

From you reply:
Ask permission, or demand:
I don't agreed, I don't think satan is going to demand something from
Jesus or God.

Back to the tread.
From key point above; Who is satan asking this from.
The verse are from Jesus so,
Did satan ask Jesus or God for permission, "demand".

luke 22  NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.

weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.

Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;

SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.

Sifting Grain is actually a positive thing.  However, most do not relate the metaphor to physically aware feeling beings.  Think about it.   It may be a positive thing, but we probably will not feel or think it is so while it is happening.



This is the word that gets translated to "claims" "asks permission" 

G1809  exaiteomai  ex-ahee-teh'-om-ahee

middle voice from G1537 and G154;

to demand (for trial):--desire.


The two root modifiers

G1537  ek  ek
or    ex  ex

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion
proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or
remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of),
exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), +
grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because,
by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth,
through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.\


G154  aiteo  ahee-teh'-o

of uncertain derivation;

to ask (in genitive case):--ask, beg, call for, crave, desire, require. Compare
G4441.



I'm not  a scholar, but usage and the biblical position Satan is in makes  "demanding permission"  more accurate.

Satans purpose is to do that, he goes around looking for who to devour.  While asking permission is still not unscriptural, it places a soft perspective to what its saying. I think the demanding emphasis is more accurate.

[Kevin]

Molly,

Jesus is the one doing the talking, thanks for helping me find my point.
For me ' adventures in missing the point'.
One can read into that Jesus is quoting our Father, maybe, at this point I don't think so.
Jesus has had direct confrontation out in the desert with satan, after being with big John B.
Jesus has direct communications for sure with Abba. That is for sure,
But, even in this time period Jesus says, " only the Father Knows", and other similar quotes.
Now I am de-railing myself.

Kevin

luke 22  NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.

weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.

Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;

SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.

So this sounds like satan is still 'in heaven' at this point because he is asking permission.

But, once he is thrown out of heaven--he no longer asks permission?


8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

--1Peter 5

"resist" [him]

G436
ἀνθίστημι
anthistēmi
anth-is'-tay-mee
From G473 and G2476; to stand against, that is, oppose: - resist, withstand.

[Paul Hazelwood]

From you reply:
Ask permission, or demand:
I don't agreed, I don't think satan is going to demand something from
Jesus or God.

Why?

[Craig]

From you reply:
Ask permission, or demand:
I don't agreed, I don't think satan is going to demand something from
Jesus or God.

I disagree Kevin. Satan does know the truth, so he wouldn't know not to.

[Nathan]

What if we could erase all that the church has taught us on this subject and start over completely fresh.  What if we were to study up on what the first church preached about this . . . from as near as I can tell, the derailment of who satan is, started with Augustine???

My question to you first is .  . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman?  This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.

[Molly]

Key point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.

Kevin, I tend to agree that satan has no authority over us because it is [the resurrected] Christ who has all authority in heaven and on earth.




17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

--Mat 28



And, if Jesus is with us always, then satan cannot harm us.

20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

--Mat 28

[Molly]

What if we could erase all that the church has taught us on this subject and start over completely fresh.  What if we were to study up on what the first church preached about this . . . from as near as I can tell, the derailment of who satan is, started with Augustine???

My question to you first is .  . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman?  This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.

well they were in unity in the sense that he hypnotized her into believing a lie.  She was deceived by him.

But, more important than the woman is the seed.

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

--Gen 3

[Craig]

My question to you first is .  . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman?  This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.

I agree the misrepresentation of Satan started with some shady characters namely, Jerome and Augustin, putting...enmity between the serpent and the woman?

The enmity was needed because Woman did not know she had enemies, she trusted a cunning liar, who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. The enmity was the knowledge of her beguilement, not that they were ever in harmony but that she was unaware of any scheme against her.

There was never any harmony between mankind and Satan, he has always been at war and at odds against mankind trying to make himself their god.

[martincisneros]

My question to you first is .  . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman?  This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.

Not necessarily.  That's overly simplistic.  If someone at your job was gunning for you and trying to mess up your raises, promotions, and even subtley working to get you fired, would turning you in the right direction as far as who is your enemy have been the creation of that enmity or a revelation that that enmity existed?  What the serpent did that caused the fall of Adam and Eve wasn't out of his unity with them and the purposes of God.  Remember: these were among the last really clear Words from God that Adam and Eve were going to perceive because fear and the curse were about to multiply in them and in their descendants.

[Molly]

My question to you first is .  . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman?  This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.

I agree the misrepresentation of Satan started with some shady characters namely, Jerome and Augustin, putting...enmity between the serpent and the woman?

The enmity was needed because Woman did not know she had enemies, she trusted a cunning liar, who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. The enmity was the knowledge of her beguilement, not that they were ever in harmony but that she was unaware of any scheme against her.

There was never any harmony between mankind and Satan, he has always been at war and at odds against mankind trying to make himself their god.

There are some men who are in harmony with satan even to this day.


John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[Nathan]

Aha!  If God put emnity between man and the devil, then how can the devil be the father of men?

I ask these questions because I see this more of a spiritual nature than a literal one.  When Jesus saw satan fall like lightning from the heavens (spiritual) to the earth (carnal). 

How can Scripture claim that God is all in all if the devil is as tradition says?

[Molly]

Aha!  If God put emnity between man and the devil, then how can the devil be the father of men?

I ask these questions because I see this more of a spiritual nature than a literal one.  When Jesus saw satan fall like lightning from the heavens (spiritual) to the earth (carnal). 

How can Scripture claim that God is all in all if the devil is as tradition says?

It's enmity between the two 'seeds'--satan's seed and the woman's seed.  Isn't that what the scripture says?  Obviously there wouldn't be enmity between satan and his own seed.

I understand what you are saying about the spiritual component, but I'm not sure that is the whole picture yet.

I thought God will not be all in all until the Son hands everything over to the Father.

[Nathan]

No, I was referring to the other Scripture you quoted where Jesus stated the Pharisees father was the devil.  "If" the enmity is placed between us and the traditional devil, how then can he be our Father if he already established enmity between us?

I see it as a picture between spirit and soul . . .the carnal mind is always at emnity with God . . .I think Paul used that specific word for a reason . . .

Romans 8
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

2 Corinthians 11
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

In the one, Paul connects the same language with that used in the garden and in the other, he connects Eve with the mind.

I still believe it is the serpent that is my ego, Eve is my mind where choices are made and reasoning is weighed . . and Adam is my spirit.  It wasn't just disobedience . . . for Eve it was, but for Adam, he submitted to what he was to subdue.  Eve fed him . . .my mind is not to feed my spirit.  And when it does . . . my ability to walk in the spirit dies.

[Molly]

Eve fed him . . .my mind is not to feed my spirit.  And when it does . . . my ability to walk in the spirit dies.

That's really interesting.  Can you give an example of that?  Is that--why did you doubt?  The double minded man?  I am even wondering if natural man has a spirit, or, if he does, what its nature is.   If we need to be born of Spirit--if Spirit gives birth to spirit--then what are we before we are born of Spirit?  And, could we be born of the spirit of the evil one [the seed], making him our father?