This is a statement question.
This is somewhat a belief, but not firmed up yet.
_____________________________________
MS Word doc attached:
Chronology of satan
Using the Word as a road map
I am far from the scholars I have experienced reading on the WEB. I just try to do and study what I am lead to. Writing somehow directs me, as does prayer, and studying.
This study is specific to where satan physically and spiritually resided and resides now. This is open for discussion. I was not looking for this information. It was not even a question to me at that time. I expect to learn and be exposed too much by putting this in writing.
I believed what was commonly taught or preached. That satan, like in "Job", could ask for permission from God to test a person. If God wanted a person tested by satan, then it was approved. I currently believe this is the old Covenant.
If this was true in today's world, the new Covenant, satan would then have the same authority as he did in the case of "Job".
I believed satan could come after me like in "Job". With God permission. My only defense was the New Testament verses I had learned or heard that satan had no authority. Jesus Christ has conquered satan and that is that. But there was always the "Job" question?
Even though I never said it, even to myself, I thought, in that silent place in my spirit, "how could my Father allow this"?
Key point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.
Bible used: King James Version;
Reference: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, [SC], Red Letter Addition.
This is the introduction about satan. God had told Adam prior to this that he could eat of any tree in the garden except the tree of Good and Evil and that if he did he would die. It is accepted understanding that God meant Spiritual death, although this was not spelled out. Eve did not exist at this time, so it is left to deduction that Adam told Eve of this 1 Command that they were to keep.
This is the 1st command God gave to Adam. This has to be read carefully and understood. At this time Eve did not exist.
Ge 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;
the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,
and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Ge 2:15
And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Ge 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man,
saying,
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Ge 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
This is part 2. Eve had been created by this time.
Ge 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.
And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said,
Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Ge 3:2
And the woman said unto the serpent,
We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Ge 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
The information here is incomplete, she does not say the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, just the consequences. Is this important, I don't know?
Ge 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Ge 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be [as gods], [knowing good and evil.]
This is satan turning God's creation against him for the 1st time. Question is, what is the nature of this situation?
This is original sin, before this time there was no sin, no knowledge of what was good and what was evil. The original sin is disobedience to God's Word. The first sin and the sin that leads to all other sins.
The Book of Job is next. This is important because it shows satan having direct access to God.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered * my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job 2:4
And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
The next verses are from Ezekiel. Much of this Book is a prophecy about events in the New Testament. This is a profile of satan, or satan's spirit. The specific verse to note is 28:17.
Eze 28:1 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffic hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Eze 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:
therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
This is the main verse in the Old and New Testament, that satan will be cast down to the ground, earth, the world.
Eze 28:17
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
There is much more in this chapter, well worth reading, but I am going to move on.
New Testament:
I am including more passages than are required:
Lu 10:17
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
This is the main verse:
Lu 10:18
And he [Christ] said unto them,
I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
I believe this is just what it says; Christ saw satan cast down to earth, during his time on earth, before the time of this verse.
This came to me while studding Revelations.
Another point in time.
Jd 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate,
but left their own habitation,
he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
On to Revelations:
I am including more verses than are needed. I have been through all of Rev 12, using Strong's Concordance, and much study. There are many debates regarding Revelations that I will not get into. I am going to delete any verses that do not address this question of chronology. I recommend all of 12 be studied. SC is required due to technical translations questions.
Rev 12:4
And his tail drew the third [satan's crew – fallen angels] part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon [satan according to SC.] stood before the [Mary according to SC.] woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
This is the final verse in the Bible regarding this lesson. satan was excommunicated from Heaven, and has, as of this time, no place in Heaven, meaning access to God, because and only because of what Jesus Christ accomplished.
Rev 12:8
And Prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
More information:
Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
Now is come salvation, and strength,
and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,
which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, [ Mary ]
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Just one of my favor verses. I have to keep in mind, when I don't, I usually find myself in trouble I need not be in.
1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Nice theory. Let us see what more you are sharing. I have studied this too, I want to know what you think Satan is.
Simplistic answer; a spirit, opposite, completely of 1st Cor. 10, the Love of Abba, agape, a complete liar,
complete opposite of the Holy Spirit, Ruwachodesh.
I am keeping it simple, KISS, hoping for input on the original or base question,
Does satan have the same access to God, in the NT, as the Old?
Trying to keep the question on track.
Respectfully,
Kevin.
Kevin wrote ;
QuoteI believed what was commonly taught or preached. That satan, like in "Job", could ask for permission from God to test a person. If God wanted a person tested by satan, then it was approved. I currently believe this is the old Covenant.
If this was true in today's world, the new Covenant, satan would then have the same authority as he did in the case of "Job".
I believed satan could come after me like in "Job". With God permission. My only defense was the New Testament verses I had learned or heard that satan had no authority. Jesus Christ has conquered satan and that is that. But there was always the "Job" question?
Hi Kevin ,
I believe that satan still asks permission to sift /test
just as Jesus told Peter to his face satan desires to have you
Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
luke 22 NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
33But he said to Him, "Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!"
34And He said, "I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me."
sift is Greek for G1809 ἐξαιτέω Transliteration
exaiteō
Pronunciation
eks-ī-te'-ō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
middle voice from G1537 and G154
TDNT Reference
1:194,*
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to ask from, demand of
a) to ask or beg for one's self, to ask that one be given up to one from the power of another
b) in a good sense,
1) to beg one from another
2) ask for the pardon
3) the safety of some one
c) in a bad sense
1) for torture
2) for punishment
What I find interesting about JOB AND PETER is that both spoke with the Wisdom of God , they had assurance and integrity in what they spoke and thought , But the Lord knew better in both cases the Old and New Covenants
the thing is there was a turning from the rightous path Jesus explains in Peters case and a denial that is not present in Jobs case ?
I do agree that satan is a spirit of adversity that enters the hearts/ minds of men / women that cause destruction of the flesh and that the spirit might be saved and made better and stronger in the Lords will/ desire for us ... Judas a good example of entering the heart ...
Jhn 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him
sin is error, missing the mark , share in going astray
there is a narrow Path that seems easy to get off of to me that Path of Righteous God , it is called the WAY in Acts ...
I cannot answer that question directly.
Heaven is our hearts and that is where the Kingdom of God reigns. For those who give Satan a foothold, he still has access to the throne. There is still a war in heaven, as the serpent tries to keep his reign but is cast out through the victory of Jesus Christ in our lives. The angels are symbols of prophets, saints, the Ambassadors of Christ sharing by our words and deeds the good news of our salvation. When the 72 were sent out, they healed the sick and cast out demons as they trembled at the Name of Jesus. On this report Jesus replied, "I was watching Satan cast out of heaven like lightning.*"
Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
luke 22 NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.
weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;
SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.
I could be wrong, but I think you did answer it, in part, in you own words directly.
Quote from: SOtW on November 15, 2008, 07:40:20 PM
I cannot answer that question directly.
Heaven is our hearts and that is where the Kingdom of God reigns. For those who give Satan a foothold, he still has access to the throne. There is still a war in heaven, as the serpent tries to keep his reign but is cast out through the victory of Jesus Christ in our lives. The angels are symbols of prophets, saints, the Ambassadors of Christ sharing by our words and deeds the good news of our salvation. When the 72 were sent out, they healed the sick and cast out demons as they trembled at the Name of Jesus. On this report Jesus replied, "I was watching Satan cast out of heaven like lightning.*"
Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Quote from: Kevin on November 15, 2008, 08:24:15 PM
luke 22 NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.
weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;
SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.
So this sounds like satan is still 'in heaven' at this point because he is asking permission.
But, once he is thrown out of heaven--he no longer asks permission?
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion,
seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
--1Peter 5
"resist" [him]
G436
ἀνθίστημι
anthistēmianth-is'-tay-mee
From G473 and G2476;
to stand against, that is,
oppose: - resist, withstand.
Quote from: Kevin on November 15, 2008, 08:24:15 PM
luke 22 NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.
weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;
SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.
Sifting Grain is actually a positive thing. However, most do not relate the metaphor to physically aware feeling beings. Think about it. It may be a positive thing, but we probably will not feel or think it is so while it is happening.
This is the word that gets translated to "claims" "asks permission"
G1809 exaiteomai ex-ahee-teh'-om-ahee
middle voice from G1537 and G154;
to demand (for trial):--desire.
The two root modifiers
G1537 ek ek
or ex ex
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion
proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or
remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of),
exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), +
grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because,
by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth,
through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.\
G154 aiteo ahee-teh'-o
of uncertain derivation;
to ask (in genitive case):--ask, beg, call for, crave, desire, require. Compare
G4441.
I'm not a scholar, but usage and the biblical position Satan is in makes "demanding permission" more accurate.
Satans purpose is to do that, he goes around looking for who to devour. While asking permission is still not unscriptural, it places a soft perspective to what its saying. I think the demanding emphasis is more accurate.
[satan has] "desired" [to have you]
G1809
ἐξαιτέομαι
exaiteomai
ex-ahee-teh'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1537 and G154; to demand (for trial): - desire.
satan is a prosecutor, isn't he? an accuser.
Here he is demanding to bring Peter to trial and accuse him and convict him [of betrayal of Christ].
Doesn't this tie in with the enemies of God given opportunity to blaspheme the name of the LORD?
Peter flunks, he is convicted, and then, ...he repents.
Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Molly,
Hi.
I am trying to keep this on track. All input is welcome.
I am in agreement with the role of satan and his servants and follower.
The tread I am trying to track is stated again below. It is soo easy to get off track, de-railed.
Key point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2008, 10:24:27 PM
[satan has] "desired" [to have you]
G1809
ἐξαιτέομαι
exaiteomai
ex-ahee-teh'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1537 and G154; to demand (for trial): - desire.
satan is a prosecutor, isn't he? an accuser.
Here he is demanding to bring Peter to trial and accuse him and convict him [of betrayal of Christ].
Doesn't this tie in with the enemies of God given opportunity to blaspheme the name of the LORD?
Peter flunks, he is convicted, and then, ...he repents.
Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Your brother in Christ.
Kevin
Paul,
I am trying to keep this on track. All input is welcome.
I am in agreement with the role of satan and his servants and follower.
The tread I am trying to track is stated again below.
It is soo easy to get off track, de-railed.
Chronology:
Key point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.
From you reply:
Ask permission, or demand:
I don't agreed, I don't think satan is going to demand something from
Jesus or God.
Back to the tread.
From key point above; Who is satan asking this from.
The verse are from Jesus so,
Did satan ask Jesus or God for permission, "demand".
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 15, 2008, 10:03:36 PM
Quote from: Kevin on November 15, 2008, 08:24:15 PM
luke 22 NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.
weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;
SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.
Sifting Grain is actually a positive thing. However, most do not relate the metaphor to physically aware feeling beings. Think about it. It may be a positive thing, but we probably will not feel or think it is so while it is happening.
This is the word that gets translated to "claims" "asks permission"
G1809 exaiteomai ex-ahee-teh'-om-ahee
middle voice from G1537 and G154;
to demand (for trial):--desire.
The two root modifiers
G1537 ek ek
or ex ex
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion
proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or
remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of),
exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), +
grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because,
by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth,
through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.\
G154 aiteo ahee-teh'-o
of uncertain derivation;
to ask (in genitive case):--ask, beg, call for, crave, desire, require. Compare
G4441.
I'm not a scholar, but usage and the biblical position Satan is in makes "demanding permission" more accurate.
Satans purpose is to do that, he goes around looking for who to devour. While asking permission is still not unscriptural, it places a soft perspective to what its saying. I think the demanding emphasis is more accurate.
Molly,
Jesus is the one doing the talking, thanks for helping me find my point.
For me ' adventures in missing the point'.
One can read into that Jesus is quoting our Father, maybe, at this point I don't think so.
Jesus has had direct confrontation out in the desert with satan, after being with big John B.
Jesus has direct communications for sure with Abba. That is for sure,
But, even in this time period Jesus says, " only the Father Knows", and other similar quotes.
Now I am de-railing myself.
Kevin
Quote from: Molly on November 15, 2008, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: Kevin on November 15, 2008, 08:24:15 PM
luke 22 NASB 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
KJV: Luke 22:31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
This is not a rebuttal. Another translation.
weaker still, my option,
NIV: Luke 22:31 # 31. "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
Sooo. to me I will stick with KJV; desired, and demanded permission, and the brief NIV; does not change my option;
SCHOLARS: step up to the plate and please reply.
So this sounds like satan is still 'in heaven' at this point because he is asking permission.
But, once he is thrown out of heaven--he no longer asks permission?
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
--1Peter 5
"resist" [him]
G436
ἀνθίστημι
anthistēmi
anth-is'-tay-mee
From G473 and G2476; to stand against, that is, oppose: - resist, withstand.
Quote from: Kevin on November 16, 2008, 01:59:07 AM
From you reply:
Ask permission, or demand:
I don't agreed, I don't think satan is going to demand something from
Jesus or God.
Why?
Quote from: Kevin on November 16, 2008, 01:59:07 AM
From you reply:
Ask permission, or demand:
I don't agreed, I don't think satan is going to demand something from
Jesus or God.
I disagree Kevin. Satan does know the truth, so he wouldn't know not to.
What if we could erase all that the church has taught us on this subject and start over completely fresh. What if we were to study up on what the first church preached about this . . . from as near as I can tell, the derailment of who satan is, started with Augustine???
My question to you first is . . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman? This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.
Quote from: KevinKey point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.
Kevin, I tend to agree that satan has no authority over us because it is [the resurrected] Christ who has all authority in heaven and on earth.
17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,--Mat 28
And, if Jesus is with us always, then satan cannot harm us.
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."--Mat 28
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 03:38:58 AM
What if we could erase all that the church has taught us on this subject and start over completely fresh. What if we were to study up on what the first church preached about this . . . from as near as I can tell, the derailment of who satan is, started with Augustine???
My question to you first is . . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman? This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.
well they were in unity in the sense that he hypnotized her into believing a lie. She was deceived by him.
But, more important than the woman is the seed.
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. --Gen 3
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 03:38:58 AM
My question to you first is . . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman? This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.
I agree the misrepresentation of Satan started with some shady characters namely, Jerome and Augustin, putting...enmity between the serpent and the woman?
The enmity was needed because Woman did not know she had enemies, she trusted a cunning liar, who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. The enmity was the knowledge of her beguilement, not that they were ever in harmony but that she was unaware of any scheme against her.
There was never any harmony between mankind and Satan, he has always been at war and at odds against mankind trying to make himself their god.
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 03:38:58 AM
My question to you first is . . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman? This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.
Not necessarily. That's overly simplistic. If someone at your job was gunning for you and trying to mess up your raises, promotions, and even subtley working to get you fired, would turning you in the right direction as far as who is your enemy have been the creation of that enmity or a revelation that that enmity existed? What the serpent did that caused the fall of Adam and Eve wasn't out of his unity with them and the purposes of God. Remember: these were among the last really clear Words from God that Adam and Eve were going to perceive because fear and the curse were about to multiply in them and in their descendants.
Quote from: SOtW on November 16, 2008, 03:53:16 AM
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 03:38:58 AM
My question to you first is . . . if the serpent in the garden is the satan your mind sees it to be, then why did God have to place enmity between the serpent and the woman? This would imply that before the enmity was put there, the serpent and the woman were in unity.
I agree the misrepresentation of Satan started with some shady characters namely, Jerome and Augustin, putting...enmity between the serpent and the woman?
The enmity was needed because Woman did not know she had enemies, she trusted a cunning liar, who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. The enmity was the knowledge of her beguilement, not that they were ever in harmony but that she was unaware of any scheme against her.
There was never any harmony between mankind and Satan, he has always been at war and at odds against mankind trying to make himself their god.
There are some men who are in harmony with satan even to this day.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Aha! If God put emnity between man and the devil, then how can the devil be the father of men?
I ask these questions because I see this more of a spiritual nature than a literal one. When Jesus saw satan fall like lightning from the heavens (spiritual) to the earth (carnal).
How can Scripture claim that God is all in all if the devil is as tradition says?
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 04:37:26 AM
Aha! If God put emnity between man and the devil, then how can the devil be the father of men?
I ask these questions because I see this more of a spiritual nature than a literal one. When Jesus saw satan fall like lightning from the heavens (spiritual) to the earth (carnal).
How can Scripture claim that God is all in all if the devil is as tradition says?
It's enmity between the two 'seeds'--satan's seed and the woman's seed. Isn't that what the scripture says? Obviously there wouldn't be enmity between satan and his own seed.
I understand what you are saying about the spiritual component, but I'm not sure that is the whole picture yet.
I thought God will not be all in all until the Son hands everything over to the Father.
No, I was referring to the other Scripture you quoted where Jesus stated the Pharisees father was the devil. "If" the enmity is placed between us and the traditional devil, how then can he be our Father if he already established enmity between us?
I see it as a picture between spirit and soul . . .the carnal mind is always at emnity with God . . .I think Paul used that specific word for a reason . . .
Romans 8
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be
2 Corinthians 11
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
In the one, Paul connects the same language with that used in the garden and in the other, he connects Eve with the mind.
I still believe it is the serpent that is my ego, Eve is my mind where choices are made and reasoning is weighed . . and Adam is my spirit. It wasn't just disobedience . . . for Eve it was, but for Adam, he submitted to what he was to subdue. Eve fed him . . .my mind is not to feed my spirit. And when it does . . . my ability to walk in the spirit dies.
QuoteEve fed him . . .my mind is not to feed my spirit. And when it does . . . my ability to walk in the spirit dies.
That's really interesting. Can you give an example of that? Is that--why did you doubt? The double minded man? I am even wondering if natural man has a spirit, or, if he does, what its nature is. If we need to be born of Spirit--if Spirit gives birth to spirit--then what are we before we are born of Spirit? And, could we be born of the spirit of the evil one [the seed], making him our father?
The Pharisees were walking according to their minds . . natural reasoning, your ego. Your mind chooses whether to follow the ego (knowledge) or your spirit. We were originally created to live in a spiritual realm (garden) but when the mind elected to be led by it's own desires (looked good to eat, to make one wise . . . all about "self") then we are following after the footsteps of the devil (adversary = mind at enmity)
I think you're now on to something Molly!!
Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 04:48:44 AM
I thought God will not be all in all until the Son hands everything over to the Father.
Ephesians 1
22 And hath (past tense) put all things under his feet and gave him to be head over all things to the church 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Already done. You just have to walk in the realm that it is finished in . . . and proclaim it's completion in the realm where it isn't.
(thy kingdom come in this earth . . AS IT IS in heaven)
The mind can be easily tricked, yielding to the wrong spirit. Isn't that what 'brainwashed' is? Isn't that why propaganda is the biggest business on the planet?
But the Pharisees were the children of satan--your father the devil--that's a different story altogether I think. They had to kill off anyone who came against them, or their kingdom would fall. They are the brainwashers, doing the work of their father--nothing more than a criminal cartel.
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 05:32:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 04:48:44 AM
I thought God will not be all in all until the Son hands everything over to the Father.
Ephesians 1
22 And hath (past tense) put all things under his feet and gave him to be head over all things to the church 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Already done. You just have to walk in the realm that it is finished in . . . and proclaim it's completion in the realm where it isn't.
(thy kingdom come in this earth . . AS IT IS in heaven)
well if it's all done why is the world looking worse and worse?
Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 05:35:51 AM
well if it's all done why is the world looking worse and worse?
Because, as St. Augustine said, the Kingdom of God can't exist outside of the presence of an eternal Hell. :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 05:35:51 AM
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 05:32:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 04:48:44 AM
I thought God will not be all in all until the Son hands everything over to the Father.
Ephesians 1
22 And hath (past tense) put all things under his feet and gave him to be head over all things to the church 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Already done. You just have to walk in the realm that it is finished in . . . and proclaim it's completion in the realm where it isn't.
(thy kingdom come in this earth . . AS IT IS in heaven)
well if it's all done why is the world looking worse and worse?
Because you are looking at a natural world with natural eyes using natural reasoning. Walk in the spirit. . .it is there where our dominion is. Our freedom is . . our vision and our relationship . . .blind eyes can see, lame can walk . . .As Paul said, the mind that is at war with God does not have the capacity to see the kingdom (realm) of God.
It's what ever your mind chooses to believe. If it chooses to see things logically, then that's how it will interpret Scripture . .through it's own logic. And . .that's how it will see the verses, logically. But if we choose to walk in the spirit . .then, the truth "in" the verses will be "revealed" through the Spirit. It's all in how I "choose" to see.
That's how we got tangled up in the "right-vs-wrong" discussion. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. You become what you behold. If I behold the reasoning of my mind, my identity reflects that. If I behold His Spirit with my spirit, then my identity is in Christ and not self.
Quote from: Molly on November 16, 2008, 05:33:19 AM
The mind can be easily tricked, yielding to the wrong spirit. Isn't that what 'brainwashed' is? Isn't that why propaganda is the biggest business on the planet?
But the Pharisees were the children of satan--your father the devil--that's a different story altogether I think. They had to kill off anyone who came against them, or their kingdom would fall. They are the brainwashers, doing the work of their father--nothing more than a criminal cartel.
The nature of the Pharisees is a picture again of how the mind works. When Adam and Eve were able to discern it was wrong to be naked . . .their first reflex was to cover it up with leaves . . . fig leaves. In Revelation which is an unveiling in the Spirit . . these trees have healing in their leaves. But in the tree of knowledge . . .the leaves were man's way of hiding in shame. In Psalms it speaks of trees clapping their hands.
There was a blind man in the New Testament that Jesus healed in measures. The first time he asked the man what he could see and he stated he could see men as trees walking . . .that isn't just about this man "starting" to be healed . .it's dimensional. David says we are like a tree that is planted beside still waters . . . Everything seen naturally has a spiritual implication. Romans 1:20 . . God uses the natural to reveal spiritual truths.
The Pharisees inflicted death upon the giver of Life. The tree of knowledge is your ego, it's your selfish, carnal nature and it's first reflex to the light of truth is to kill it. The Pharisees enforced the law of religion, heavily. Law is the "knowledge" of sin. The manifestion of righteousness comes by way of living without the law. (Romans 3). Jesus lived outside of the law of the Pharisees . . .his ways are not our ways . . .he lives outside the logic of our minds.
In fact, when I read Scripture now, I was doing this Wednesday night during our Revelation study . . my first question anymore is . . .what would be the opposite of what we used to believe such and such a verse says? That which my reasoning thinks should be first, spiritually, is actually last. And that which I think comes last, is actually first. A book that we've been trained to believe is to happen in the future, has already happened in the past. And we've always looked at it with doom and gloom . .when in all truth . . .it's a book of praise. The original readers used it to sign hymns of praise. We've been duped.
QuoteWe've been duped.
I'm willing to believe that since that is satan's stock in trade and he is good at what he does.
I'd like to know who financed the left behind series, which shaped the way a generation perceived that book.
But the elect cannot be deceived, just like Adam, a son, could not be deceived.
He could be killed but not deceived.
Or, in other words, you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
QuoteThat's how we got tangled up in the "right-vs-wrong" discussion. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. You become what you behold. If I behold the reasoning of my mind, my identity reflects that. If I behold His Spirit with my spirit, then my identity is in Christ and not self.
I think I know what you are saying, but truth is absolute, not relative. I hope you are not saying truth is relative. If satan is mucking about in the world causing millions of innocents to be killed because no one is doing anything to stop it, that's an absolute truth. No amount of 'spiritual enlightenment' will make the truth go away. It is a fact, whether people perceive it that way or not. And, the blood of innocents cries out to God. Another fact. Truth is absolute.
Forum, at large:
I am not blowing smoke:
I love this site. In my original question, I said
"I expect to learn and be exposed too much, by putting this in writing".
What I didn't say is about expectations,
In the past, when I would bring anything similar to this topic or any supporting views of what I have now come to
see as UR, I would be under attack, spiritually, psychologically, by others and by the split in my own self.
continued thanks, on with it.
Kevin.
Quote from: Kevin on November 15, 2008, 01:57:24 AM
This study is specific to where satan physically and spiritually resided and resides now. This is open for discussion. I was not looking for this information. It was not even a question to me at that time. I expect to learn and be exposed too much by putting this in writing.
Key point: since the new Covenant I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God. This is completely different than what existed prior to Christ. satan has zero say about what happens in my life as a Christian, no authority in truth, just as he did not with Christ in the desert. This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth. If you don't know the truth, it all sounds the same.
1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Morning,
Second cup of coffee. fingers are starting to work,
Regarding quote, did you mean;
"Satan does know the truth, so he wouldn't know not to."
or
satan does
not know the truth, so he ....."
ok going for the 3rd cup.
Kevin
Quote from: SOtW on November 16, 2008, 02:51:05 AM
Quote from: Kevin on November 16, 2008, 01:59:07 AM
From you reply:
Ask permission, or demand:
I don't agreed, I don't think satan is going to demand something from
Jesus or God.
I disagree Kevin. Satan does know the truth, so he wouldn't know not to.
Paul,
1. Regarding God, N.T. N.Cov. I don't believe satan has direct contact with God,
as stated in the origin of this thread.
2. Regarding Jesus, I have not seen, read, or heard in the N.T. satan demanding
Jesus do or say anything, challenge Jesus in the desert, ya, demand, nay.
Kevin.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 16, 2008, 02:21:47 AM
Quote from: Kevin on November 16, 2008, 01:59:07 AM
From you reply:
Ask permission, or demand:
I don't agreed, I don't think satan is going to demand something from
Jesus or God.
Why?
willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 05:17:58 AM
The Pharisees were walking according to their minds . . natural reasoning, your ego.
RIGHT ON! :happyclap:
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 05:17:58 AMYour mind chooses whether to follow the ego (knowledge) or your spirit. We were originally created to live in a spiritual realm (garden) but when the mind elected to be led by it's own desires (looked good to eat, to make one wise . . . all about "self") then we are following after the footsteps of the devil (adversary = mind at enmity)
You are right on Nathan... "satan" is not an external being which convinces us of anything...
James 1:14 notes ...
EVERY MAN is tempted when he/she is drawn away
of his/her OWN lust [desire], and enticed... :dontknow:
It is the CARNAL
mind which accomplishes its own deception of itself...
peacE...
willieH :handshake:
But untill it is bound within you it is a constant presence/force spirit that with the Lords Spirit does cause division within us working that strong desire to be self centered and not Christ centered , in our members
inwardly and outwardly
Jesus using the similie cut off had or foot , pluck out the eye etc ..
when satan is cast out of heaven , I see that as no longer in your mind/heart where Jesus is throne is ruling the heart/ mind , that is how we are seated with Christ in heavely places ...
just a few thoughts on this ......
to be Christ centered or self centered
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This cen·ter (sěn'tər) Pronunciation Key
n.
A point or place that is equally distant from the sides or outer boundaries of something; the middle: the center of a stage.
A point equidistant from the vertices of a regular polygon.
A point equidistant from all points on the circumference of a circle or on the surface of a sphere.
A place where a particular activity or service is concentrated: a medical center.
A point of origin, as of influence, ideas, or actions: a center of power; a center of unrest. An area of dense population: a metropolitan center.
A small conical hole made in a piece of work with a center punch so that a drill can be accurately positioned within it.
A bar with a conical point used to support work, as during turning on a lathe.
A point around which something rotates or revolves: The sun is the center of our solar system.
A part of an object that is surrounded by the rest; a core: chocolates with soft centers.
A place where a particular activity or service is concentrated: a medical center.
A point of origin, as of influence, ideas, or actions: a center of power; a center of unrest.
An area of dense population: a metropolitan center.
A small conical hole made in a piece of work with a center punch so that a drill can be accurately positioned within it.
A bar with a conical point used to support work, as during turning on a lathe.
A person or thing that is the chief object of attention, interest, activity, or emotion.
A person, object, or group occupying a middle position.
often Center A political group or a set of policies representing a moderate view between those of the right and the left.
Physiology A group of neurons in the central nervous system that control a particular function: the vasomotor center.
Sports A player who holds a middle position on the field, court, or forward line in some team sports, such as football and basketball.
Baseball Center field.
A small conical hole made in a piece of work with a center punch so that a drill can be accurately positioned within it.
A bar with a conical point used to support work, as during turning on a lathe.
Architecture A centering.
v. cen·tered, cen·ter·ing, cen·ters
v. tr.
To place in or at the center: centered the vase on the table.
To direct toward a center or central point; concentrate or focus: tried to center the discussion on the main issues.
Sports
To pass (a ball or puck) toward the center of a playing area.
To play as a center on (a line), as in ice hockey.
Football To pass (the ball) back between the legs to begin a down.
v. intr.
To be concentrated; cluster: The epidemic centered in the urban areas.
To have a central theme or concern; be focused: Her novels center on the problems of adolescence.
Sports To play as a center.
[Middle English centre, from Old French, from Latin centrum, from Greek kentron, center of a circle, from kentein, to prick; see kent- in Indo-European roots.]
to be Christ centered or self centered
Hmmm . . . I never made the connection with when Satan fell from heaven to earth that it was from the throne in me to my earth . . .that's pretty good!! I've seen the dimension where Satan fell from the spirit realm to the within the prisons of man's mind where man was given power to rule over him via spirit over soul . . . But I can now also see what you're saying also.
Whether everyone sees satan as your mind, or not, the end result is the same as far as I'm concerned. If he's a spirit being that is in control of hoards of lower spirit beings that constantly wreak havoc on earth around us . . .or if he's actually the carnal mind of man . . .the truth remains that we have a greater authority within us that is at our disposal to the point where satan, be it mind or spirit, is rendered usless. "that" for me should be my emphasis . .the glory of the blood of the Lamb manifesting through the body on every level, on every dimension of truth.
Quote from: Nathan on November 17, 2008, 05:25:33 PM
Whether everyone sees satan as your mind, or not, the end result is the same as far as I'm concerned. If he's a spirit being that is in control of hoards of lower spirit beings that constantly wreak havoc on earth around us . . .or if he's actually the carnal mind of man . . .the truth remains that we have a greater authority within us that is at our disposal to the point where satan, be it mind or spirit, is rendered usless. "that" for me should be my emphasis . .the glory of the blood of the Lamb manifesting through the body on every level, on every dimension of truth.
Hi Nate ,
you see things a whole lot the way I do , in many of your posts I am blessed by them , I dont answer them all bro
but you are right , to me a spirit is a force / breath wind that does influence the carnal mind , though we are tempted by our own lusts/desires ,to me that is to entertain the "thought" creating division within than the act or works are judged byLord /God , when Jesus told Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
to me that is raising the Bar of the Law of death or Life
and also to me its not so literal as it is spiritual in nature
what would cause this "thought"' to arise for one to focus on its pleasures/ or power ? and to cause one to be captured /imprisioned by it ?
it would be the imaginations going wild to perform /do it !
I agree the end result would cause death spirit /soul separation or overcoming in the Lords power and our surrender of will/desire ...............when I am weak , I am strong , Pauls proclamation
Nathan,
Excellent.
"though we walk in the flesh we don't war in the flesh, ....
2nd Cor.10.
Quote from: Nathan on November 17, 2008, 05:25:33 PM
Hmmm . . . I never made the connection with when Satan fell from heaven to earth that it was from the throne in me to my earth . . .that's pretty good!! I've seen the dimension where Satan fell from the spirit realm to the within the prisons of man's mind where man was given power to rule over him via spirit over soul . . . But I can now also see what you're saying also.
Whether everyone sees satan as your mind, or not, the end result is the same as far as I'm concerned. If he's a spirit being that is in control of hoards of lower spirit beings that constantly wreak havoc on earth around us . . .or if he's actually the carnal mind of man . . .the truth remains that we have a greater authority within us that is at our disposal to the point where satan, be it mind or spirit, is rendered usless. "that" for me should be my emphasis . .the glory of the blood of the Lamb manifesting through the body on every level, on every dimension of truth.
Quote from: Kevin on November 18, 2008, 01:28:42 AM
Nathan,
Excellent.
"though we walk in the flesh we don't war in the flesh, ....
2nd Cor.10.
Quote from: Nathan on November 17, 2008, 05:25:33 PM
Hmmm . . . I never made the connection with when Satan fell from heaven to earth that it was from the throne in me to my earth . . .that's pretty good!! I've seen the dimension where Satan fell from the spirit realm to the within the prisons of man's mind where man was given power to rule over him via spirit over soul . . . But I can now also see what you're saying also.
Whether everyone sees satan as your mind, or not, the end result is the same as far as I'm concerned. If he's a spirit being that is in control of hoards of lower spirit beings that constantly wreak havoc on earth around us . . .or if he's actually the carnal mind of man . . .the truth remains that we have a greater authority within us that is at our disposal to the point where satan, be it mind or spirit, is rendered usless. "that" for me should be my emphasis . .the glory of the blood of the Lamb manifesting through the body on every level, on every dimension of truth.
Yes, isnt that Romans 7?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.But it gets better.
..for we walk by faith, not by sight...--2Cor 5
Molly, Nathan, willeH,
Hope your day is going your way.
Got my e-Sword out, really love it when i don't have my books with me.
Had to switch gears:
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2Co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 01:39:08 AM
Quote from: Kevin on November 18, 2008, 01:28:42 AM
Nathan,
Excellent.
"though we walk in the flesh we don't war in the flesh, ....
2nd Cor.10.
Quote from: Nathan on November 17, 2008, 05:25:33 PM
Hmmm . . . I never made the connection with when Satan fell from heaven to earth that it was from the throne in me to my earth . . .that's pretty good!! I've seen the dimension where Satan fell from the spirit realm to the within the prisons of man's mind where man was given power to rule over him via spirit over soul . . . But I can now also see what you're saying also.
Whether everyone sees satan as your mind, or not, the end result is the same as far as I'm concerned. If he's a spirit being that is in control of hoards of lower spirit beings that constantly wreak havoc on earth around us . . .or if he's actually the carnal mind of man . . .the truth remains that we have a greater authority within us that is at our disposal to the point where satan, be it mind or spirit, is rendered usless. "that" for me should be my emphasis . .the glory of the blood of the Lamb manifesting through the body on every level, on every dimension of truth.
Yes, isnt that Romans 7?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
for we walk by faith, not by sight...
But it gets better.
Forum,
S.C. rule = control; self control.
seemed to fit in this area of the thread.
Agreed, satan is not an external being.
Pr 25:28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is [as] a city broken down, without walls.
Quote from: willieH on November 17, 2008, 12:27:19 AM
willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 05:17:58 AM
The Pharisees were walking according to their minds . . natural reasoning, your ego.
RIGHT ON! :happyclap:
Quote from: Nathan on November 16, 2008, 05:17:58 AMYour mind chooses whether to follow the ego (knowledge) or your spirit. We were originally created to live in a spiritual realm (garden) but when the mind elected to be led by it's own desires (looked good to eat, to make one wise . . . all about "self") then we are following after the footsteps of the devil (adversary = mind at enmity)
You are right on Nathan... "satan" is not an external being which convinces us of anything...
James 1:14 notes ...EVERY MAN is tempted when he/she is drawn away of his/her OWN lust [desire], and enticed... :dontknow:
It is the CARNAL mind which accomplishes its own deception of itself...
peacE...
willieH :handshake:
I like the last several posts wrt Satan's fall...question, connected with reading this scripture the other day, how "we are carried away of our own lusts...becomes sin"...
Since God made all, yet we are accountable for own sin, and influencing that is Satan/the adversarial spirit (especially if the beast is still on the throne and satan is not under subjection) then exactly what do you think our own lusts are? Or since I have many so I ought to know what they are, maybe a better question is from where do you think they originate? Can you or I really create anything, or do you think there are other layers to this?
Hi Molly I love Romans 7 and 8 :HeartThrob: together 8 answers 7 !
when I got stuck in 7 and could not get past it , trying to figure it out .... Jesus Speaks of cut it off them members of the body of death in Romans 7 , the foot that is offensive or hand or eye ,and he dont mean literally does he ?!!
it has to be the metaphorical sense like lop of a branch of a tree , making the tree good or ''to cut off occasion'' to sin
like Pauls example here ................
2Cr 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
I find Paul always in harmony/union with Jesus Christ teachings !
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
Paul was also cleaning the inside of the cup so the outward would also be clean as Jesus spoke to the Pharisee's
the conscience he speaks of so often in his epistles ..
2Cr 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. greek 4893 syneidēsis
1) the consciousness of anything
2) the soul as distinguishing between what is morally good and bad, prompting to do the former and shun the latter, commending one, condemning the other
a) the conscience
being aware and awakened to this good and bad moral character
Origin: character
1275–1325; < L < Gk charaktr graving tool, its mark, equiv. to charak- (base of charáttein to engrave) + -tēr agent suffix; r. ME caractere < MF < L, as abovenoun 1. the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.
2. one such feature or trait; characteristic.
3. moral or ethical quality: a man of fine, honorable character.
4. qualities of honesty, courage, or the like; integrity: It takes character to face up to a bully.
5. reputation: a stain on one's character.
6. good repute.
7. an account of the qualities or peculiarities of a person or thing.
8. a person, esp. with reference to behavior or personality: a suspicious character.
9. Informal. an odd, eccentric, or unusual person.
10. a person represented in a drama, story, etc.
11. a part or role, as in a play or film.
12. a symbol as used in a writing system, as a letter of the alphabet.
13. the symbols of a writing system collectively.
14. a significant visual mark or symbol.
15. status or capacity: the character of a justice of the peace.
16. a written statement from an employer concerning the qualities of a former employee.
17. Literature. (esp. in 17th- and 18th-century England) a formal character sketch or descriptive analysis of a particular human virtue or vice as represented in a person or type. Compare character sketch.
18. Genetics. any trait, function, structure, or substance of an organism resulting from the effect of one or more genes as modified by the environment.
19. Computers. a. any symbol, as a number, letter, punctuation mark, etc., that represents data and that, when encoded, is usable by a machine.
b. one of a set of basic symbols that singly or in a series of two or more represents data and, when encoded, is usable in a computer.
20. a style of writing or printing.
21. Roman Catholic Theology. the ineffaceable imprint received on the soul through the sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and ordination.
22. (formerly) a cipher or cipher message.
–adjective 23. Theater. a. (of a part or role) representing a personality type, esp. by emphasizing distinctive traits, as language, mannerisms, physical makeup, etc.
b. (of an actor or actress) acting or specializing in such roles.
–verb (used with object) Archaic. 24. to portray; describe.
25. to engrave; inscribe.
—Idioms26. in character, a. in harmony with one's personal character or disposition: Such behavior is not in character for him.
b. in accordance with the role or personality assumed in a performance: an actor in character.
27. out of character, a. out of harmony with one's personal character or disposition: Her remarks were out of character.
b. away from the role or personality assumed in a performance: The actor stepped out of character
Quote from: jabcat on November 18, 2008, 02:07:48 AM
I like the last several posts wrt Satan's fall...question, connected with reading this scripture the other day, how "we are carried away of our own lusts...becomes sin"...
Since God made all, yet we are accountable for own sin, and influencing that is Satan/the adversarial spirit (especially if the beast is still on the throne and satan is not under subjection) then exactly what do you think our own lusts are? Or since I have many so I ought to know what they are, maybe a better question is from where do you think they originate? Can you or I really create anything, or do you think there are other layers to this?
AMEN! Jabcat ! you got it
it is the beastly nature that sits on the throne = in power/control that causes sin ! Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the
seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, Rev 16:17 And the
seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. it is an inward working to me bro!
Rom 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion/POWER/RULE over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
I always wondered where is this power to overcome if Christ is in me than why do i feel so weak to sin ??
Hi rose, yes--Romans 8 is the answer to Romans 7. People stop reading too soon.
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
We have been set free from the sin nature by Christ and can now live according to the Spirit.
So satan is totally vanquished.
How many times does this need to be addressed.
A tear in the flesh is called a cut, when the flesh is healed, the cut is no more.
A hole in the ground is called a pit, when the hole is filled in, the pit is no more.
Satan is not a being, he is a spirit. That spirit is called adversary. When there is harmony, Satan is no more.
Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 02:25:05 AM
How many times does this need to be addressed.
A tear in the flesh is called a cut, when the flesh is healed, the cut is no more.
A hole in the ground is called a pit, when the hole is filled in, the pit is no more.
Satan is not a being, he is a spirit. That spirit is called adversary. When there is harmony, Satan is no more.
what would cause this waring in Pauls members Craig ? though in Pauls mind he was serving the Law of Christ /Life? thanks , this is not so easy for me to understand , his mortal body was undergoing death he confesses this , but it that waring within himself that has me perplexed?
Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 02:22:46 AM
Hi rose, yes--Romans 8 is the answer to Romans 7. People stop reading too soon.
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
We have been set free from the sin nature by Christ and can now live according to the Spirit.
So satan is totally vanquished.
Quote from: rosered on November 18, 2008, 02:17:59 AM
AMEN! Jabcat ! you got it
it is the beastly nature that sits on the throne It is done. [/b]
it is an inward working to me bro!
:Peace2: Yes. So again, specifically what do you think is
our own lusts? My thought is that we can't actually create this, but it's more a
result of the satan-influenced beast on its throne, prior to our being able to walk in the spirit. We are still accountable for that, and it needs repented of...not saying otherwise, just more so trying to understand the workings of it, as are you, Rosered. Does that ring true to you? God's blessing, James.
Because you are dealing with human minds, not inanimate objects. We still battle daily against the principalities and wickedness in the high places of our minds. When we are in complete harmony with God, God is already reconciled us to him, and Paul said in tears, we must also be reconciled with God.
Quote from: rosered on November 18, 2008, 02:31:46 AM
Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 02:25:05 AM
How many times does this need to be addressed.
A tear in the flesh is called a cut, when the flesh is healed, the cut is no more.
A hole in the ground is called a pit, when the hole is filled in, the pit is no more.
Satan is not a being, he is a spirit. That spirit is called adversary. When there is harmony, Satan is no more.
what would cause this waring in Pauls members Craig ? though in Pauls mind he was serving the Law of Christ /Life? thanks , this is not so easy for me to understand , his mortal body was death he confesses this , but it that waring within himself that has me perplexed?
I think maybe Craig is saying that when we are healed, there is no more internal warring, and, if there is harmony within, there is no more satan. Jesus said, [Satan] "hath nothing in me." [Jon 14]
Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 02:40:52 AM
Because you are dealing with human minds, not inanimate objects. We still battle daily against the principalities and wickedness in the high places of our minds. When we are in complete harmony with God, God is already reconciled us to him, and Paul said in tears, we must also be reconciled with God.
So we are deceived by our own hearts/minds ? we are saved but do not accept Gods grace to be saved ? is that what you are saying Craig ? I dont understand this fully yet :mblush:
There are various types of salvation, not everyone experiences them. This is not a good place to talk about it, because we have extremist views which will confuse the issue by their misunderstandings.
Jabcat wrote ;
QuoteYes. So again, specifically what do you think is our own lusts? My thought is that we can't actually create this, but it's more a result of the satan-influenced beast on its throne, prior to our being able to walk in the spirit. We are still accountable for that, and it needs repented of...not saying otherwise, just more so trying to understand the workings of it, as are you, Rosered. Does that ring true to you? God's blessing, James.
Yes it does ring true , I am not convinced in my mind that I am free of sin in my life bro , and if its lusts/ desires to have my way in things i have no right to have ?
for instance having power over /overcoming anger , or food or anything that gets me in a place of defeat /loosing ground and pleasing God
to be perfect is complete in God can we have this in this life ? and in a mortal body ? when the Spirit wars so much against being mortal
there are times when in the Spirit of God there is peace but it does not stay continually , it is more of a in and out type thing to me anyways , but I know I am not perfect yet ! lol ... Paul knew he was not either but that some were ,,,,humm ? I dont know bro.......
Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 02:59:51 AM
There are various types of salvation, not everyone experiences them. This is not a good place to talk about it, because we have extremist views which will confuse the issue by their misunderstandings.
Ok , thanks bro , I know that the dividing of the soul and Spirit does cause unrest , and that may be very well what is happening to me
and why I cannot really feel complete all the time
I dont want to start a war in words hee hee :winkgrin:
Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 02:45:49 AM
Quote from: rosered on November 18, 2008, 02:31:46 AM
Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 02:25:05 AM
How many times does this need to be addressed.
A tear in the flesh is called a cut, when the flesh is healed, the cut is no more.
A hole in the ground is called a pit, when the hole is filled in, the pit is no more.
Satan is not a being, he is a spirit. That spirit is called adversary. When there is harmony, Satan is no more.
what would cause this waring in Pauls members Craig ? though in Pauls mind he was serving the Law of Christ /Life? thanks , this is not so easy for me to understand , his mortal body was death he confesses this , but it that waring within himself that has me perplexed?
I think maybe Craig is saying that when we are healed, there is no more internal warring, and, if there is harmony within, there is no more satan. Jesus said, [Satan] "hath nothing in me." [Jon 14]
Yes Molly , I believe it is to that effect Hon , but for me it is not a continual victory sis , I have times of refreshing and down right times of utter defeat in my life , I dont always understand Gods will in my life or anyones for that matter there seems to be alot suffering because of sin / error but how in the world do you stay clean
all the time?? my faith in God does not always work to my dismay :sigh:
quote author=rosered ---- Yes Molly , I believe it is to that effect Hon , but for me it is not a continual victory sis , I have times of refreshing and down right times of utter defeat in my life , I dont always understand Gods will in my life or anyones for that matter there seems to be alot suffering because of sin / error but how in the world do you stay clean all the time?? my faith in God does not always work to my dismay".
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I agree Rosered. I certainly see growth, but to be totally free of sin in this life? Now, it may be that it's no longer "held against us" as we might think due to the actual sin debt being "paid in full" by Jesus.. and Paul said "it's no longer I that sin, but the sin that dwells in me"...however, he also talked about PLENTY of internal struggles he had, that he constantly did what he didn't want, and vice versa. Was it John that said if we say we have no sin, we lie? And Paul that said "take heed when you think you stand lest you fall"? Don't you think God "finishing that work in us" doesn't finally, completely occur until after the actual physical death of this flesh? God's blessing, James.
Quote from: jabcat on November 18, 2008, 03:35:50 AM
quote author=rosered ---- Yes Molly , I believe it is to that effect Hon , but for me it is not a continual victory sis , I have times of refreshing and down right times of utter defeat in my life , I dont always understand Gods will in my life or anyones for that matter there seems to be alot suffering because of sin / error but how in the world do you stay clean all the time?? my faith in God does not always work to my dismay".
__________________________
I agree Rosered. I certainly see growth, but to be totally free of sin in this life? Now, it may be that it's no longer "held against us" as we might think due to the actual sin debt being "paid in full" by Jesus.. and Paul said "it's no longer I that sin, but the sin that dwells in me"...however, he also talked about PLENTY of internal struggles he had, that he constantly did what he didn't want, and vice versa. Was it John that said if we say we have no sin, we lie? And Paul that said "take heed when you think you stand lest you fall"? Don't you think God "finishing that work in us" doesn't finally, completely occur until after the actual physical death of this flesh? God's blessing, James.
You Know James that is what I am thinking bro , it may be a literal death that we are free from this body of death hum ? but the inward man is being delivered all the while ?
John also speaks of being perfect without sin and the seed remains in us
you might be right ! that we may not be having the sin imputed / held against us any longer '''''
we just GOT to believe this 1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. :HeartThrob: :thumbsup: :icon_flower: :cloud9:
you encourage me bro greatly ! God bless you
Great verses, and what a contrast to what I usually see in myself. But I guess that's the difference between what I see and what God sees and has done in us through His Son, the pure sacrifice. Righteousness imputed to us, not earned or performed by us. Then, He lives in and through us, progressively "killing" the flesh...don't you think part of that process is all those times you and I fall, when He picks us up, tells us He is strong, and that His grace is sufficient to cover all our weaknesses and failures...and will eventually fully deliver us :friendstu:. God's blessing, James.
Quote from: rosered on November 18, 2008, 03:10:39 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2008, 02:45:49 AM
Quote from: rosered on November 18, 2008, 02:31:46 AM
Quote from: SOtW on November 18, 2008, 02:25:05 AM
How many times does this need to be addressed.
A tear in the flesh is called a cut, when the flesh is healed, the cut is no more.
A hole in the ground is called a pit, when the hole is filled in, the pit is no more.
Satan is not a being, he is a spirit. That spirit is called adversary. When there is harmony, Satan is no more.
what would cause this waring in Pauls members Craig ? though in Pauls mind he was serving the Law of Christ /Life? thanks , this is not so easy for me to understand , his mortal body was death he confesses this , but it that waring within himself that has me perplexed?
I think maybe Craig is saying that when we are healed, there is no more internal warring, and, if there is harmony within, there is no more satan. Jesus said, [Satan] "hath nothing in me." [Jon 14]
Yes Molly , I believe it is to that effect Hon , but for me it is not a continual victory sis , I have times of refreshing and down right times of utter defeat in my life , I dont always understand Gods will in my life or anyones for that matter there seems to be alot suffering because of sin / error but how in the world do you stay clean all the time?? my faith in God does not always work to my dismay :sigh:
I don't think we are expected to stay clean all the time. I am just so greatful for what I have. If you could have seen what a mess I was before I had a relationship with Christ...So compared to that, well, there is no comparison. The first Bible verse I didn't understand was, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. I didn't understand that for years. It made no sense to me. Now I know you can't have righteousness without faith and you can't have faith without Christ. So the very fact that you can believe means you have Christ, and having Christ makes you righteous by definition.
And, just this year I have learned that perfection is relationship with Him. He's with you/me and he is faithful to complete what he started, no matter how it might look day to day. :cloud9:
wow Thanks James & Molly
sometimes I dont see the forrest for the trees , to nearsighted
i reckin'..
wonderful ,we forget about Gods grace and whwere we have been , thanks for the reminder Molly!! you are right about that ,,
the End is Christ and we cannot see the end sometimes less the Lord Gives us a glimpse .....
James I love the letters of the Johns 1,2, 3
here is one I forgot :bigGrin:
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not [his] brother abides in death. Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.
I do love my brothers and sisters in Christ :icon_flower:
Molly this is a verse that came to me last night while sleeping , I saw this again
Love is stronger than death in Jesus Christ !!! and thats the victory!!!
thinking much better now :happy3:
God love ya all ..
the bride /Church and Bridegroom /Jesus Christ
6"Put me like a seal over your heart,
Like a seal on your arm
For love is as strong as death,
Jealousy is as severe as Sheol;
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
The very flame of the LORD.
7"Many waters cannot quench love,
Nor will rivers overflow it;
If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love,
It would be utterly despised."
QuoteI do love my brothers and sisters in Christ
As We Love You!
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
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:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
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:HeartThrob:
What if sin isn't the issue? In this thread I feel the struggle between spirit and flesh. The spirit claims I'm sinless . . .I'm righteous . . .but my flesh continues to bring charges against me, challenging me to see my current state in the flesh. I still sin . .what do you mean you "can't" sin . . .there isn't a day that goes by that . . .fill in the blank . . .
But again, my mind is the master of distraction . . . it constantly derails me from advancing into the things proclaimed by the Word of God . . . If the Word says I can't sin because the seed of life is in my DNA . .then . .what if what has transpired is . my flesh is not broken from the sin . .but "the power" of sin? In other words . . . sin is what holds you back from being who you're proclaimed to be. Your mind convinces you that you're not good enough, you're not right enough, you don't know enough, you'll never measure up . .it puts doubt in you so you won't step out in faith . .because your ego knows that the minute to turn to faith, you've just turned away from your flesh and the control is then given over to the spirit.
So as long as your ego can convince you that sin is always present in you . .which . . . in the flesh it is . . .but in the spirit is where all things are complete. And as long as you focus on the failure of you . . .you will always be tethered by the carnal things in you instead of fully letting go and let God teach you how to fly. Leave the tares be. The message of Truth will be doing the separating at your harvest. You're only purpose right here and now is . . .focus on letting your wheat grow in your field.
Gotta go back to work.
Quote from: Nathan on November 18, 2008, 05:01:14 PM
What if sin isn't the issue? In this thread I feel the struggle between spirit and flesh. The spirit claims I'm sinless . . .I'm righteous . . .but my flesh continues to bring charges against me, challenging me to see my current state in the flesh. I still sin . .what do you mean you "can't" sin . . .there isn't a day that goes by that . . .fill in the blank . . .
But again, my mind is the master of distraction . . . it constantly derails me from advancing into the things proclaimed by the Word of God . . . If the Word says I can't sin because the seed of life is in my DNA . .then . .what if what has transpired is . my flesh is not broken from the sin . .but "the power" of sin? In other words . . . sin is what holds you back from being who you're proclaimed to be. Your mind convinces you that you're not good enough, you're not right enough, you don't know enough, you'll never measure up . .it puts doubt in you so you won't step out in faith . .because your ego knows that the minute to turn to faith, you've just turned away from your flesh and the control is then given over to the spirit.
So as long as your ego can convince you that sin is always present in you . .which . . . in the flesh it is . . .but in the spirit is where all things are complete. And as long as you focus on the failure of you . . .you will always be tethered by the carnal things in you instead of fully letting go and let God teach you how to fly. Leave the tares be. The message of Truth will be doing the separating at your harvest. You're only purpose right here and now is . . .focus on letting your wheat grow in your field.
Gotta go back to work.
Yes. What does the church focus on? (not my church but
the church) The sin of man, the death of Jesus.
If I were satan, that's what I would focus Christians on. It stops them in their tracks. You sin, Jesus dies, the End.
But, that's not the end. That is the beginning. So what is the end?
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. --Rev 21
Ok, I am going to go out on a limb.
Back to the beginning:
Key point:
Since the new Covenant
I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God.
This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth.
Great input from the forum:
The question and my options hinge loosely on:
Rev 12:8
And Prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Answer: now this is just my views.
The chronology seems to fit into the time slice between Jesus Baptism with big John B., after the Baptism, and before
Jesus encounter with satan shortly after.
This is a view only. And I can't back it up firmly; barely, loosely with Scripture.
This question or "loose answer" of mine does not affect my Spiritual beliefs of UR, Jesus Christ, God, or The Holy Spirit,
or the common supporting beliefs in the supporting information on "UR-no-Hell", expressed in this Forum, Site.
___________________________________________________________________
Well I could go on, but will go ahead and post this.
I don't get upset by others beliefs or criticism, well-intended or not.
Kevin wrote ;
QuoteKey point:
Since the new Covenant
I do not believe satan has any access or communication with God.
This will not stop him, or his crew, from lying to me, or anyone on the face of this earth.
Great input from the forum:
The question and my options hinge loosely on:
Rev 12:8
And Prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Answer: now this is just my views.
The chronology seems to fit into the time slice between Jesus Baptism with big John B., after the Baptism, and before
Jesus encounter with satan shortly after.
This is a view only. And I can't back it up firmly; barely, loosely with Scripture.
Well remember what Jesus said Kevin ?Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist
until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent/men take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.And if you will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
it seems satan was cast out of heaven eh ?
and in Matt 4 when the HOLY SPIRIT took Jesus to the wildereness
the only thing satan /violent men could offer Jesus was earthly things ?
Still working on editing skills.
Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 12:35:54 AM
Answer: now this is just my views.
The chronology seems to fit into the time slice between Jesus Baptism with big John B., after the Baptism, and before Jesus encounter with satan shortly after.
This is a view only. And I can't back it up firmly; barely, loosely with Scripture.
Well remember what Jesus said Kevin ?Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist
until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent/men take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.And if you will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
it seems satan was cast out of heaven eh ? and in Matt 4 when the HOLY SPIRIT took Jesus to the wildereness
the only thing satan /violent men could offer Jesus was earthly things ?
[/quote]
Quote from: Kevin on November 20, 2008, 01:00:47 AM
Still working on editing skills.
Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 12:35:54 AM
Answer: now this is just my views.
The chronology seems to fit into the time slice between Jesus Baptism with big John B., after the Baptism, and before Jesus encounter with satan shortly after.
This is a view only. And I can't back it up firmly; barely, loosely with Scripture.
Well remember what Jesus said Kevin ?Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent/men take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.And if you will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
it seems satan was cast out of heaven eh ?
and in Matt 4 when the HOLY SPIRIT took Jesus to the wildereness
the only thing satan /violent men could offer Jesus was earthly things ?
[/quote] me too still working on editing skills
What could satan offer Jesus the 3rd time after twice trying to break him down ?
8Again, the devil took Him to a
very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."
10Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written,
'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'" Dont you find it odd that Jesus told satan to worship God and serve him as it is written ?
this makes me think in a differnt way , than the typical main flow of religion
Quote from: rosered on November 20, 2008, 01:10:40 AM
What could satan offer Jesus the 3rd time after twice trying to break him down ?
10Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"
Dont you find it odd that Jesus told satan to worship God and serve him as it is written ?
this makes me think in a differnt way, than the typical main flow of religion
ok, here goes.
Regarding: what could satan offer Jesus?
Answer: satan was offering Jesus things of this world that satan believe
are in his control, so, I would say there is a chance he, meaning satan would offer Jesus:
Immortality. Partnership with him, satan.
Odd: no.
'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only'.
I look at it as a statement of fact, for satan, in the future.
Question: you, different flow, basically, what?
Respectfully,
Kevin
Quoteok, here goes.
Regarding: what could satan offer Jesus?
Answer: satan was offering Jesus things of this world that satan believe are in his control, so, I would say there is a chance he, meaning satan would offer Jesus:
Immortality. Partnership with him, satan.
Odd: no.
'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only'.
I look at it as a statement of fact, for satan, in the future.
Question: you, different flow, basically, what?
Respectfully,
Kevin
Hi Kevin ,
First why did you draw lines though your words Kevin ?
I believe that the only thing he/adversity /satan could offer Jesus was things of this world he is cast out of heaven
the the Words Jesus Spoke was the suffering of violence , was no more, Jesus is here on the scene Now , to judge in righteousness
thats all I meant
and main stream religion does not even consider these things
peace Bro , rose :cloud9:
Rose,
Lines through my post, don't know, it was not intentional. That being said,
I agree with your posting on this issue.
I just hope, that I get some feed back on whether or not the forum believes satan has
access to God after the OT? That was the point of the tread.
Respectfully,
Kevin.
And I'll reiterate from another direction. The posed question you ask can only be answered once you've addressed who satan is in the first place. If it is your mind, then you can see this tempting Jesus was experiencing was his own carnality within him which would explain your ponderings about Jesus telling satan to serve God and him alone. He was taking captive his thoughts.
Once the alignment in him was back in it's rightful place (spirit . . .soul . .then body) the adversary would leave "for a season". Because that's how our flesh works . . . it's much like the farmers I would watch growing up as a kid . . literally every day they would hop on their dirt-bikes . now quadrunners . .and they'd drive the fence lines of their pastures to check for any weakened areas where the cows may try to get out. Seasons come and seasons go . . .but if our fences, our spiritual walls are not daily and routinely kept intact, the adversary (it's the original definition for satan) will find the worn down places where he can push his way into our lives. Our minds must continually be kept in check and never left to their own means.
So, can satan approach God . . .can my mind approach my spirit? That's the wrestling that goes on within Paul. His flesh is always trying to regain the authority it lost over his nature once Christ came into the scene. So yeah, Paul wrestled within himself when it came to doing the right thing, but in the end, he left it in a state of praise . . .not "what a wretched man I am . . ." But "thanks be to God . . .
Romans 7 in the Message Translation of this passage puts it like this . . .
17-20But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can't keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! I realize that I don't have what it takes. I can will it, but I can't do it. I decide to do good, but I don't really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don't result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time.
21-23It happens so regularly that it's predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. I truly delight in God's commands, but it's pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge. 24I've tried everything and nothing helps. I'm at the end of my rope. Is there no one who can do anything for me? Isn't that the real question? 25The answer, thank God, is that Jesus Christ can and does. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.
And then . . .a beautiful thing . . .Romans 8:1 is the very next breath that comes from Paul's lips . . . it's a continuation of the thought Paul was sharing out.
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
"This is why I say that focusing on sin isn't the answer. Worrying about blaspheming the Holy Ghost, worrying about what sins lead to death and what ones don't. . . the whole truth is if I am desiring after Christ there is no condemnation for those times when I cave to the flesh. The fact that there is conviction there, that there is this internal struggle within me, is evidence that Christ truly is in me, otherwise there would be no conviction at all . . . and it doesn't require someone preaching at me that it's time to fly south . . it's an "in"-stinct that God plants in everyone of is and with that, comes redemption.
The direction of this thread is dealing with the literal thinking of an actual evil entity called the devil (traducer) or satan (adversary) when at the same time, we're directed to pursue the realm of the spirit . . . are we in denial by not pursuing the devil talking to God or not? I hardly think so. There is no indication in Scripture that I'm to alarm the saints about the "possibilities" that are out there where the enemy is waiting to leap on you and attack you and slaughter you . . ."Oh yes it does. . .satan is as a roaring lion . . "
Again, the lion and satan are still . . .my mind. When Scripture talks about the lion laying with the lamb . . .that is when there is order restored in me as it was in the beginning. Lions did not eat flesh when they were first created. The act of one beast eating another is evidence the curse is still entact in the natural realm of things. But originally, the lion was as cows are today, it was a grazing animal . .. .the change came when Adam, who was the one who gave the animals their names (natures) when he received the forbidden fruit OF KNOWLEDGE from his Eve, everything he was given dominion over came under the same curse.
My mind is my lion . .my spirit is my lamb. In Christ, the two can once again come together in harmony because . .therefore, now there is no condemnation for those who are IN Christ who walk after the spirit (lamb) and not the flesh (lion). The nature of man is like a fire in a sense . .the more you feed it . . the hungrier it gets . .it is never full, it's never satisfied. The only way to kill a fire is to choke it . . .smother it. . .remove the source of air from it . . .air is a picture of the Spirit. To kill the devouring nature of our flesh, death to our flesh must occur. And the ony way that can happen, is through the power of the finished works of the cross.
Can satan (evil spirit being) approach God . . . to me it's irrelevant.
Nathan and Forum,
Statement after quote:
Hope it is ok,
I numbered the replies in the quotes, in
bold. so that
is me not Nathan.
Quote from: Nathan on November 21, 2008, 09:45:02 PM
And I'll reiterate from another direction. The posed question you ask can only be answered once you've addressed who satan is in the first place. 01. If it is your mind, then you can see this tempting Jesus was experiencing was his own carnality within him which would explain your ponderings about Jesus telling satan to serve God and him alone. 02. He was taking captive his thoughts.
Once the alignment in him was back in it's rightful place (spirit . . .soul . .then body) the adversary would leave 03"for a season". Because that's how our flesh works . . . it's much like the farmers I would watch growing up as a kid . . literally every day they would hop on their dirt-bikes . now quadrunners . .and they'd drive the fence lines of their pastures to check for any weakened areas where the cows may try to get out. Seasons come and seasons go . . .but if our fences, our spiritual walls are not daily and routinely kept intact, the adversary (it's the original definition for satan) will find the worn down places where he can push his way into our lives. 04. Our minds must continually be kept in check and never left to their own means.
So, can satan approach God . . .can my mind approach my spirit? That's the wrestling that goes on within Paul. His flesh is always trying to regain the authority it lost over his nature once Christ came into the scene. So yeah, Paul wrestled within himself when it came to doing the right thing, but in the end, he left it in a state of praise . . .not "what a wretched man I am . . ." But "thanks be to God . . .
Romans 7 in the Message Translation of this passage puts it like this . . .
17-20But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can't keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! I realize that I don't have what it takes. I can will it, but I can't do it. I decide to do good, but I don't really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don't result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time.
21-23It happens so regularly that it's predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. I truly delight in God's commands, but it's pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge. 24I've tried everything and nothing helps. I'm at the end of my rope. Is there no one who can do anything for me? Isn't that the real question? 25The answer, thank God, is that Jesus Christ can and does. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.
And then . . .a beautiful thing . . .05 Romans 8:1 is the very next breath that comes from Paul's lips . . . it's a continuation of the thought Paul was sharing out.
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
"This is why I say that focusing on sin isn't the answer. Worrying about blaspheming the Holy Ghost, worrying about what sins lead to death and what ones don't. . . the whole truth is if I am desiring after Christ there is no condemnation for those times when I cave to the flesh. The fact that there is conviction there, that there is this internal struggle within me, is evidence that Christ truly is in me, otherwise there would be no conviction at all . . . and it doesn't require someone preaching at me that it's time to fly south . . it's an "in"-stinct that God plants in everyone of is and with that, comes redemption.
The direction of this thread is dealing with the literal thinking of an actual evil entity called the devil (traducer) or satan (adversary) when at the same time, we're directed to pursue the realm of the spirit . . . are we in denial by not pursuing the devil talking to God or not? I hardly think so. There is no indication in Scripture that I'm to alarm the saints about the "possibilities" that are out there where the enemy is waiting to leap on you and attack you and slaughter you . . .OK Kevin. "Oh yes it does. . .satan is as a roaring lion . . "
Again, the lion and satan are still . . .my mind. When Scripture talks about the lion laying with the lamb . . .that is when there is order restored in me as it was in the beginning. Lions did not eat flesh when they were first created. The act of one beast eating another is evidence the curse is still entact in the natural realm of things. But originally, the lion was as cows are today, it was a grazing animal . .. .the change came when Adam, who was the one who gave the animals their names (natures) when he received the forbidden fruit OF KNOWLEDGE from his Eve, everything he was given dominion over came under the same curse.
My mind is my lion . .my spirit is my lamb. In Christ, the two can once again come together in harmony because . .therefore, now there is no condemnation for those who are IN Christ who walk after the spirit (lamb) and not the flesh (lion). The nature of man is like a fire in a sense . .the more you feed it . . the hungrier it gets . .it is never full, it's never satisfied. The only way to kill a fire is to choke it . . .smother it. . .remove the source of air from it . . .air is a picture of the Spirit. To kill the devouring nature of our flesh, death to our flesh must occur. And the ony way that can happen, is through the power of the finished works of the cross.
06. Can satan (evil spirit being) approach God . . . to me it's irrelevant.
01.. I believe it is in the mind, 1st the spiritual mind, then the carnal mind.
02. My current spiritual season is reflected in 2nd Cor. 10: 3 - 7.
So I am in agreement.
03. ecl 01, paraphrased " nothing new under the sun.
04. many verses in the OT and NT. I am going to attach a MS Word doc. I wrote in 2004, "The BattleField." I will post this some place else after this reply.
05. R. 7 - 8. lived it, living it. Believe it.
06 A person can look at this as relevant or not.
As I have stated, multiple times in this thread, which is ok,
My believes In God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit, UR, no hell, are not affected by the
answer.
It is just a question, maybe and intellectual question, it is not important to me if I find
and answer, it has not become irrelevant to me because it has never been relevant to my spiritual believes. It is just a question.[?]
Respectfully,
The Wander, no longer lost.
Kevin
Quote from: Kevin on November 21, 2008, 08:21:53 PM
Rose,
Lines through my post, don't know, it was not intentional. That being said,
I agree with your posting on this issue.
I just hope, that I get some feed back on whether or not the forum believes satan has
access to God after the OT? That was the point of the tread.
Respectfully,
Kevin.
SATAN DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO GOD ...1. the ability, right, or permission to approach, enter, speak with, or use; admittance:
To God yes , to heaven no God is everywhere and satan is in the earth [our bodies /minds]
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Romans 8
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
It is as you said rosered, my carnal mind does not have the capacity to be subject to the law of God . . .my adversary can not approach God.
Quote from: Nathan on November 23, 2008, 12:56:32 AM
Romans 8
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
It is as you said rosered, my carnal mind does not have the capacity to be subject to the law of God . . .my adversary can not approach God.
I do believe this is why Jesus is our intercesser bro Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him
we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Amen to that. We can come boldly to the throne, but only through the blood of the Lamb. Not by might, not by power . . .