Rich man and Lazarus

[Molly]

Gen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.

I've always thought God did this to protect them by hiding their glory.  Our natural state in the garden--Adam in the garden--is glory.  Adam is the seed carrier.  But God hides this fact under skins of beasts so that they can move safely in a fallen world.  Adam, the son of God, is not a beast, rather, he is like his Father.  That is why satan seeks to humiliate and kill him, as he did with Jesus.  So, for now, Adam is hidden under tunics of skin, until his true glory can be revealed.


Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

[Tony N]

Gen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.

I've always thought God did this to protect them by hiding their glory.  Our natural state in the garden--Adam in the garden--is glory.  Adam is the seed carrier.  But God hides this fact under skins of beasts so that they can move safely in a fallen world.  Adam, the son of God, is not a beast, rather, he is like his Father.  That is why satan seeks to humiliate and kill him, as he did with Jesus.  So, for now, Adam is hidden under tunics of skin, until his true glory can be revealed.

Hi Molly,
I think that their glory, while in the garden, is what concealed their nakedness. It was after they sinned that their glory departed and they then could see they were naked. And so after that they needed skins to conceal their nakedness.

[Molly]

Gen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.

I've always thought God did this to protect them by hiding their glory.  Our natural state in the garden--Adam in the garden--is glory.  Adam is the seed carrier.  But God hides this fact under skins of beasts so that they can move safely in a fallen world.  Adam, the son of God, is not a beast, rather, he is like his Father.  That is why satan seeks to humiliate and kill him, as he did with Jesus.  So, for now, Adam is hidden under tunics of skin, until his true glory can be revealed.

Hi Molly,
I think that their glory, while in the garden, is what concealed their nakedness. It was after they sinned that their glory departed and they then could see they were naked. And so after that they needed skins to conceal their nakedness.

well, that's all about their perception, isn't it?

Who told you that you were naked?

--Gen 3

[rosered]

 
  about the rich man a lazurus , I just wanted to say the whole chapter is  about the same thing  and it is a picture  to see the  Truth [Christ work]
it is about the blinding of Israel [time they had and said they see  to be made blind , ignorant of the things of GodBeing the  NT /NC ]  and it was  now the time given to the gentiles  to come in ..
 
  the taking away  stewardship   and giving it to another
  the poor beggars [Lazurus ] Meaning whom God helps
there are lots of scripture to back this up by Paul s epistles 

the time of torment for the rich man had come  , cut off
  his tongue  needs to be cooled [judged for the idle words] , the gentiles are those whom  Jesus said you will not see me  till you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord ...

  Jam 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 
  they have the Law of Moses and do not obey it , so how will they believe one rased from the dead ? ..

James summarizes the desolation that will come on the "rich men"....those who trust in riches in the church...they have "nourished" their hearts in a day of slaughter:

James 5: 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Jesus stands at the door....the Judge stands before the door.

9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

We are not to "grudge" against each other...we are to remember the "brotherly covenant" and love one another.

[Cat]

White Wings, you've made an interesting observation- regarding OT teachings on hell etc.  Does anyone know what the Jews understood the state of the dead to be and if they believed in eternal suffering or punishment?  sorry this is going off thread a bit, but it ties in with the Jews and what they believed in say David's time and then in Jesus' time.

regards

Catherine   :Sparkletooth:

[rosered]

Since this story was about something happening in death, and we know everybody will be raised from the dead, it isn't about "hell" as the popular doctrine about it goes.  If the rich man dies and goes to hell, and as some have argued with me, this is an example of what it's like, then it would mean everybody will get out of hell.  Death will be abolished.  Nobody will stay in death.

As an explanation borrowed from Sadhu Sundar Singh of the fire or flames, consider someone who is a drunkard leaving his body in death.  As a spirit he has no means to quench his thirst for liquor.  That lust will burn him.  There probably will also be demons attached to him that torment him which he must overcome.  That's why I tell people that suicide is not an answer.  It may be more difficult without a body.  We must undergo whatever it takes to be formed into what aspect of the image and likeness of God that He has determined is our lot.  Go as far as you can now in this life.  Who knows, you may even mature sufficiently to prevent death from removing you.  Never the less, with or without this body you are in the hands of the potter and cannot escape.  You must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary.

Hi ReFORMer ,
you made a good point   being dead  to what ? to God , thats is what Jesus hints to in  He is the God of the living ,   
and Christ work is to bring / raise up the dead  to the Living  GOD

the middle ground

  I know that death come to all in the fact of being our lives mean nothing and we are to be humbled  by death of the will /soul / desire
  in doing whatever we please   
that suffering  like  King Neb's  having it all and his way till the Lord come and humbled him to submission , what can you do , where can you go to escape that judgment of God ?
  thanks for the post bro .........

[Tony N]

Gen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.

I've always thought God did this to protect them by hiding their glory.  Our natural state in the garden--Adam in the garden--is glory.  Adam is the seed carrier.  But God hides this fact under skins of beasts so that they can move safely in a fallen world.  Adam, the son of God, is not a beast, rather, he is like his Father.  That is why satan seeks to humiliate and kill him, as he did with Jesus.  So, for now, Adam is hidden under tunics of skin, until his true glory can be revealed.

Hi Molly,
I think that their glory, while in the garden, is what concealed their nakedness. It was after they sinned that their glory departed and they then could see they were naked. And so after that they needed skins to conceal their nakedness.

well, that's all about their perception, isn't it?

Who told you that you were naked?

--Gen 3

Do you think God would skin an animal to cover their perception?

By asking: Who told you that you were naked? God was not saying: "You aren't naked. Someone must have lied to you cause you look perfectly clothed to Me." God was just trying to get them to fess up to their crime. They saw that they were naked. God saw they were naked else He would not skin an animal to cover their nakedness.

Interesting, eh?

[Tony N]

Never the less, with or without this body you are in the hands of the potter and cannot escape.  You must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary.

Hi reFORMer, I am curious as to your above statement.
What if there is no resurrection of our bodies?

If Christ's body was not resurrected then our faith would be in vain. God could not do anything with His Son if He did not bring His body back to life.

Also, the Scriptures do not say that mankind "must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary." Rather, Romans 5:18,19 is very explicit that mankind must be brought to perfection by Christ's obedience.

[Cat]

Tony,  I've always believed that the resurrected Jesus' body was 'changed' into a spirity body (Paul mentions our bodies changing somewhere).  I think the spirit body much be similar or be comprised of some of the physical body - hence the marks of the nails and Jesus eating with them, but flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, so Jesus' body had altered to be spirit which is immortal (it could pass through walls and appear in the room).  I may be wrong, but He was brought back to life which is the most important thing.   :happygrin:

[Tony N]

Tony,  I've always believed that the resurrected Jesus' body was 'changed' into a spirity body (Paul mentions our bodies changing somewhere).  I think the spirit body much be similar or be comprised of some of the physical body - hence the marks of the nails and Jesus eating with them, but flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, so Jesus' body had altered to be spirit which is immortal (it could pass through walls and appear in the room).  I may be wrong, but He was brought back to life which is the most important thing.   :happygrin:

Hi Cat,
right now, the Bible says our bodies are soulish bodies. Does that mean we walking around as a vaporous soul? No. It just means that our bodies are regulated by soulish desires.

Paul then says that our bodies will be roused spiritual bodies. Does that mean we will be spirits? No. It just means that our bodies will be regulated by God's spirit rather than soul.

Jesus was not and is not a spirit being. When He was raised He told His disciples to feel him and see that he was not a spirit for, He said, a spirit hath not flesh and blood as you see Me have.

[Cat]

Ah, yes, I forgot He said that.  Very interesting.

[reFORMer]

Never the less, with or without this body you are in the hands of the potter and cannot escape.  You must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary.

Hi reFORMer, I am curious as to your above statement.
What if there is no resurrection of our bodies?

If Christ's body was not resurrected then our faith would be in vain. God could not do anything with His Son if He did not bring His body back to life.

I'm not even remotely thinking of "no resurrection."  What I was talking about was our conditions in this life with a body of humiliation or as disembodied spirit in death, "With or without this body."  In Hebrews, what it is said we are coming to, in contradistinction to things under the Old Covenant, includes, "the spirits of just men made perfect."  It seems clear to me, with the possible exception of only a couple of people out of all I've ever met, the justified believers have quite some way to go before they can be considered "perfect, mature or finished," even at the point of their deaths.  It seems necessary for God to continue developing them after death.  While I don't consider myself to be what has been called "a creedal Christian," creeds are acknowledged, even by their endeared proponents, to be our words to God and lesser than Scripture which is God's words to us. Yet, on this matter, it is consistent with Scripture and was inherently contained within what the early church considered indispensable for our faith as expressed in the words about Christ, that He, "Descended into hell." (cp., 1 Peter 3:18-20)  There he preached the message the Father had given Him, God's command to eonian life.  "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)    As Jesus said, "Who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall He live."

This is something that may be offered as a possible pivotal difference between ET & UR:  God's saving work does not stop with our deaths.  It continues until He has accomplished all His good will.  Change that particular idea, that destiny is determined by death, that God only loves you 'til you die, and no difference in any other doctrine needs to be made for the believer to accept Jesus as the Savior of All.

Also, the Scriptures do not say that mankind "must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary." Rather, Romans 5:18,19 is very explicit that mankind must be brought to perfection by Christ's obedience.

I used the illustration of our being clay in the hands of the Creator, our Father, for the context of saying we will be brought to what uniquely of the image and likeness of God he has determined for each one of us without exception.  In the course of accomplishing this it may be assumed various workings will be brought to bear on the vessel.  It is somewhat similar to what has been called one's own "personal testimony."  The out working of God's salvation when it becomes manifest in any given vessel is a unique story that is hung on the gospel.  It is not God's work in us that saves us.  It is God's work in Christ which is our sure foundation.  But there is a building to be erected upon this foundation, both personally and corporately.  We are being constituted the dwelling place of God, and much experience is thereupon to testify of the grace of God in the course of being conformed to the image of His Son.

There's a song, I think it's called, "God leads His dear children along."  The first line, if I remember correctly, is "In shady green pastures so rich and so sweet..."  The chorus is:

Some though the waters,
some through the flood,
some throught the fire,
but, all through the blood.
Some through great sorrow,
but God gives a song,
in the night season
and all the day long.

[reFORMer]

I just posted something called:  "Death Does Not Determine Destiny"
I'd put a link if I knew how.  Maybe a Moderater will insert it for us.  It's here:

Tentmaker Discussion Forum > Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Discussions on Universal Salvation > Death Does Not Determine Destiny

It's by no means what a more complete examination of death would be; but, it deals with the aforementioned topic.  I could of put it in the same place in the thread started by FineLinen "Preaching to the dead" but it seemed a somewhat separate topic.

JMR

[firstborn888]

White Wings, you've made an interesting observation- regarding OT teachings on hell etc.  Does anyone know what the Jews understood the state of the dead to be and if they believed in eternal suffering or punishment?  sorry this is going off thread a bit, but it ties in with the Jews and what they believed in say David's time and then in Jesus' time.

regards

Catherine   :Sparkletooth:

I believe the Jews predominately believed Genesis 3 and the Ecclesiastes 12:6 account of dust returning to dust and breathe to breathe.

Plus the Jews had this:

    Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Eccl 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

    Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Some have suggested (as I have) that while in captivity to pagan nations the pagan afterlife torment myths crept into Jewish theology.

[Tony N]

I'm not even remotely thinking of "no resurrection."  What I was talking about was our conditions in this life with a body of humiliation or as disembodied spirit in death, "With or without this body."  In Hebrews, what it is said we are coming to, in contradistinction to things under the Old Covenant, includes, "the spirits of just men made perfect."  It seems clear to me, with the possible exception of only a couple of people out of all I've ever met, the justified believers have quite some way to go before they can be considered "perfect, mature or finished," even at the point of their deaths.  It seems necessary for God to continue developing them after death. 

Tony's reply:
I think you are basing your ideas on a poor translation when you quote the KJV as "the spirits of just men made perfect." The Hebrew believers "have come" (perfect tense) to these things:
Heb 12:22 But you have come to mount Zion, and the city of the living God, celestial Jerusalem, and to ten thousand messengers,
Heb 12:23 to a universal convocation, and to the ecclesia of the firstborn, registered in the heavens, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the just perfected,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a fresh covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling which is speaking better than Abel."

22 There is a studied contrast here between the scene presented to the physical eye at Mount Sinai and the prospect of faith in connection with the new covenant. Mount Sinai itself is suggestive of another mountain which is the ultimate home of Israel in the new earth. The Lord is present, as He was in the wilderness, but here He is the Light, rather than the Lightning. Instead of being warned away for fear of death, the saints dwell near Him and enjoy the fruits of the tree of life and the draught of the river of life (Un.21, 22).
     The law was given by the mandate of messengers (Ac.7:53). Now they are ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are about to be enjoying the allotment of salvation (Heb.1:14).
     The universal convocation here referred to is probably that which is convoked at the opening of the day of the Lord when the representatives of the whole creation are summoned together before the judgments which usher in the kingdom are visited on the earth (Un.4, 5).

Here is what A.E. Knoch said concerning the above verses in the Concordant Commentary:

23 The ecclesia of the firstborn recalls the passover, when the firstborn in Egypt were saved by the blood (Ex.12:15). As a consequence Jehovah claimed all the firstborn for Himself (Ex.13:2, 34:19). Later the Lord took the Levites in exchange for the firstborn (Nu.3:12-13). Thus those ransomed by blood were the "ecclesia of the firstborn" in the wilderness. These Jehovah claimed for His own and these He brought near to Him in the Levites. So that the "church of the firstborn" comprises those under the shelter of the blood before the kingdom is set up. In the wilderness they were numbered on earth (Nu.3:42), here they are registered in heaven.
     God as Judge is especially appropriate to those who were waiting for Him to arise and judge His own people and the whole earth, as a preparation for the establishment of the kingdom. Not so do we know God.

24 Under the law the spirits of the just never reached perfection, for its rites brought nothing to a finality. Perfection comes only through the Antitype of the ritual of the law.

24 Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, but