A parable explains a 'hidden' concept by using an everyday example.
Like the farmer sowing grain on 3 types of soil. Farmers, grain and soil all exits.
But what about the Lazarus and the rich man?
If it's not a parable then hell exists with real fire.
If it is a parable then it tells a story with the real flames of hell as a wel now example.
Can someone please tell me a little more about this type of parable?
This is the main 'proof' of a literal hell that some preachers love to use.
But the main problem with an understanding that Jesus is simply referring to what happens to 'lost' and 'saved' people in the afterlife in this parable is that NO MENTION is made about faith in God at all - only that the one man was rich and had a good life and the other was poor and had a terrible life.
The next big clue that it is a parable and not a literal story is the term used: 'Hades' which is the best Greek could do for the Hebrew 'Sheol' (AKA: the grave, the unseen, ie: the generic state of death)
Throughout scripture it is taught that there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in pagan mythology.
The idea of 'two compartments in Sheol' and 'instant reward/punishment' theory did not originally come from the Hebrews or their scriptures at all, but the Pharisees had such a doctrine - probably picked up while the Jews were in captivity to pagan nations. In the Pharisees version - the rich, who were (in their eyes) obviously blessed by God would be carried by angels (also un-scriptural) to their reward in the 'bosom of Abraham' (also a one time mention) while the poor beggars who were (in their eyes) obviously cursed by God were sent into instant fiery torments.
Jesus simply turned their OWN false doctrine upside down on them to show their hypocrisy.
Some have also pointed out that the the name "Lazarus" it is the equivalent of the Hebrew "Eliezer" whom Abraham wished to be the heir of all his riches but he (a gentile) was left out and only got the crumbs. The pharisees identified with the tribe of Judah's kingly stature (hence the purple robe) and riches and considered the gentiles cursed 'dogs' so they KNEW what the parable was about - THEM. In Christ the gentiles received the promises of Abraham and the 'children of the kingdom' were temporarily cast out till the fulness of the gentiles had come in.
I've been feeling very strongly for a while that there's only one Lazarus in the 4 Gospels, so that when you've got the raising of Lazarus from the dead in John chapter 11 that you've got the reason over here in this parable in Luke's Gospel. Although Abraham couldn't do anything about the rich man's cry while he was in torments, he still had a higher authority to consult since all of the families of the earth were to be blessed through him and his Seed. So, Jesus said what was going on to the particular crowd that would wind up seeing the death of the particular rich man in town and Lazarus.
Again, being a parable, Lazarus' begging at the rich man's gate didn't have to be literal. His sores could have been symbolic of life's stress. The dogs being the only ones having any sympathy could have been neighboring Gentiles, since that was the Jewish Fundamentalist view of Gentiles back then. Perhaps that was representative of some debt, or some favor that the rich man could give but wouldn't. And when the two men died, Jesus was mysteriously gone for 4 days for a number of reasons, including dramatic effect of letting His Words really get spread around the community about the situation. And voila! Lazarus is raised from the dead 4 days later, and it's a testimony to the elder brothers of where their lives were heading, perhaps literally but definitely figuratively.
One thing to keep in mind is 2Peter 3 that all things don't continue as they were from the foundation of the world. There's no reason to believe that if the parable of the rich man and Lazarus needed to be taken literally by the people that Jesus was speaking to, that that same "Hell" would necessarily still be around 'cause of all of the Scriptures that indicate that Jesus emptied out the underworld and has prepared a new heavens and a new earth. So, something horrific might have been on the horrizon for the rich man's brothers if they died before Jesus died. And as firstborn888 pointed out, it's also a parable that indicates the taking of the Kingdom of God from the Jews of that day that were unfaithful to the Word and it being given to the Gentiles.
Thanks for the answers. But I've either not understood the answers or my question was not answered.
I know Rich man and Lazarus (RAL) is supposed to be a parables. I'm not asking the meaning of the parable unless it's need for the answer.
I also gave the example of the farmer sowing seed in fertile, rocky and inbetween soil.
Because the parable itself never directly tells what it means it uses common day knowledge that can be grasped by everyone.
In this case (as I understand it) Jesus is the farmer, the seed is the gospel and the soil is how we receive His word.
Or the example of the 1 lost sheep out of a flock of 100. It's not about sheep. The numbers aren't correct either. But it is used to make a concept clear. Now I have 'explained' what all of you know for years lets go back to RAL.
RAL being a parable used common day words to explain a 'mystery'.
However the common day words here are a description of 'classic hell'
Just like that concept is as well understood as the existence of sheep and farmers.
Quote
Throughout scripture it is taught that there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in pagan mythology.
Learned something here. I noticed the contradictions but just assumed it was just my lack of understanding. So actually you are saying Jesus was using sarcasm? Jesus was using a well known lie? Part of the lie was conscious.
A little off-topic in my own topic... I've read my old and new topic of this board. If a board member or relative dies the replies often are that person is now enjoying the perfection of heaven. That does sound conscious to me...
I'm not asking an endless list of verses but is that pagan concept of consciousness in the Bible? If not may we use that to back up our claims? To be honest I find it a bit odd that to understand Christianity I first have to study pagan religion.
And the pagans personally listening to Jesus likely have thought: Another parable! Now He confirms consciousness a well know fact of hell. What is the hidden message?
So simply put I find it odd that Jesus tells lies* to explain a truth.
*= probably meant sarcastic. But the the listeners understand that or just got their pagan thoughts confirmed.
Hello wabbit!
Your question does not seem to be "what is the meaning of this parable?" but rather; "WHY did Jesus speak in parables to the crowds?"
Read it for yourself:
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'
Here are a few reasons why I believe that this story is a parable and not a literal historical account of anything at all....I'll leave its interpretation to others because my views may differ from some.
Abraham died--Gen. 25:8-9
Abraham still dead at the time of Jesus telling this parable--John 8:52
Abraham still dead/sleeping, awaiting the resurrection, died in FAITH but not having received YET the promises--Heb. 11
Abraham not in heaven-- John 3:13
Abraham waiting for the city having foundations, whose Artificer and Architect is God (The New Jerusalem) Heb. 11, Rev. 5:10
One of the foundational truths of UR/US is that:
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But that resurrection has not yet occured. Paul warned about those that claimed that the resurrection had already occured.
II Tim 2:15-18
15 Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.
16 But shun profane babblings: for they will proceed further in ungodliness,
17 and their word will eat as doth a gangrene: or whom is Hymenaeus an Philetus;
18 men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.
One last thought:
I agree with what some have said here in that God does answer us according to the idols of our heart. The religious leaders being addressed had pre-conceived notions about death, hades, and the resurrection, as mentioned above.
Ezekiel 14:4
Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry.
When those idols are destroyed in their hearts, and Jesus alone sits on the throne of their heart, the truth will be made clear to them....in everything.
Luke 11:9
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
sorry for the length! :icon_flower:
Joyce :)
Yes Joyce - a parable is an example, not a literal truth and there is precedent for using pagan stories to make a point - like when Isaiah spoke about a Babylonian king's fall:
"How art thou fallen from heaven
O day-star, son of the morning! (Helel ben Shahar)
How art thou cast down to the ground,
That didst cast lots over the nations!
The actual Hebrew text says הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar."
Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Helel was the god of the morning star and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning."
In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, referring the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing Babylon's own mythological accounts of the planet Venus' fall from grace from among the gods.
Obviously Isaiah did not believe in this pagan god but used the story as an example.
BTW Joyce - it would be nice to hear what you've seen in rich man and Lazarus parable.
Quote from: joyful1 on August 30, 2008, 12:20:26 PM
Hello wabbit!
Your question does not seem to be "what is the meaning of this parable?" but rather; "WHY did Jesus speak in parables to the crowds?"
Not even that.
The question is why Jesus used lies (the pagan concept is a lie) to explain something.
Oh good grief, wabbit! :laughing7:
Parables are not lies. Parables are stories. Parables are not meant to be taken literally! If they WERE meant to be taken that way....then you could say: Jesus lied.
They are not and He didn't.
Joyce :)
I'm not saying parables are lies!
But consciousness for the dead is lie. (pagan belief) Right.
In that sense Jesus used a lie to explain/tell His parable....
Just like when He had used pink flying elephants to explain something.
Got it? :laughing7:
Quote from: firstborn888 on August 29, 2008, 10:54:44 PM
This is the main 'proof' of a literal hell that some preachers love to use.
But the main problem with an understanding that Jesus is simply referring to what happens to 'lost' and 'saved' people in the afterlife in this parable is that NO MENTION is made about faith in God at all - only that the one man was rich and had a good life and the other was poor and had a terrible life.
The next big clue that it is a parable and not a literal story is the term used: 'Hades' which is the best Greek could do for the Hebrew 'Sheol' (AKA: the grave, the unseen, ie: the generic state of death)
Throughout scripture it is taught that there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in pagan mythology.
The idea of 'two compartments in Sheol' and 'instant reward/punishment' theory did not originally come from the Hebrews or their scriptures at all, but the Pharisees had such a doctrine - probably picked up while the Jews were in captivity to pagan nations. In the Pharisees version - the rich, who were (in their eyes) obviously blessed by God would be carried by angels (also un-scriptural) to their reward in the 'bosom of Abraham' (also a one time mention) while the poor beggars who were (in their eyes) obviously cursed by God were sent into instant fiery torments.
Jesus simply turned their OWN false doctrine upside down on them to show their hypocrisy.
Some have also pointed out that the the name "Lazarus" it is the equivalent of the Hebrew "Eliezer" whom Abraham wished to be the heir of all his riches but he (a gentile) was left out and only got the crumbs. The pharisees identified with the tribe of Judah's kingly stature (hence the purple robe) and riches and considered the gentiles cursed 'dogs' so they KNEW what the parable was about - THEM. In Christ the gentiles received the promises of Abraham and the 'children of the kingdom' were temporarily cast out till the fulness of the gentiles had come in.
QuoteSome have also pointed out that the the name "Lazarus" it is the equivalent of the Hebrew "Eliezer" whom Abraham wished to be the heir of all his riches but he (a gentile) was left out and only got the crumbs. The pharisees identified with the tribe of Judah's kingly stature (hence the purple robe) and riches and considered the gentiles cursed 'dogs' so they KNEW what the parable was about - THEM. In Christ the gentiles received the promises of Abraham and the 'children of the kingdom' were temporarily cast out till the fulness of the gentiles had come in.
Hi! firstborn888
Spot on, brother, and it is a very fascinating parable to book and one of the most difficult to interpret. I could post the full interpretation here but it would be too long for an email. If it were possible to send an attachment, then it could be done, but I don't know if that facility is available here. If it is show me how and I'll post it.
Yes Lazarus is Abraham's faithful gentile servant who would have inherited his master's possessions had Ishmael or Isaac not been born seeing that both Abraham and Sarah were well past reproductive age before they were born.
Peace!
(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
Roy UK
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 29, 2008, 10:09:59 PM
A parable explains a 'hidden' concept by using an everyday example.
Like the farmer sowing grain on 3 types of soil. Farmers, grain and soil all exits.
But what about the Lazarus and the rich man?
If it's not a parable then hell exists with real fire.
If it is a parable then it tells a story with the real flames of hell as a wel now example.
Can someone please tell me a little more about this type of parable?
Hi! WhiteWings
If it will help brother, I'll try and send you the full explanation of it in a PM. Hopefully it will arrive in one piece, but it is very long. Worth a try in any case as it is very interesting.
Peace!(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
Roy UK
Roy, you can upload files and then post the link here.
http://www.fast-files.com/
Altough all info is good to read my post is not about:
- If it's a parable or not
- The meaning of it.
Both Rays and Garys site (among others) have lengthy explanations on it.
You've brought up a good point, actually, wabbit. I've PM'd some thoughts on the whole heaven issue. But what I'd like to address is your post that seems to say: Jesus lied by answering the religious leaders at the time according to the idols of their hearts. I've often looked at the sarcasm displayed in some of Jesus' upbraidments of the Pharisees and Sadducees as just that: sarcasm. But He may have been using phrases like "you vipers, you snakes" as alluding to the fact that He knew they'd been spiritually fathered by the serpent! I only see Jesus getting close to being in a rage when religious people hurt His flock or blasphemed His Father. But answering them the way He chose to was His prerogative. They knew the law, but didn't keep it....and yet demanded that the flock keep it!
When I would get a "smarty pants" answer from one of my kids, I'd often just put it back in their court by simply saying something like; "okay, you know it all! You are right and I am wrong!"
But my kids KNEW that I was NOT LYING to them....I was being sarcastic to get my point across and they'd run for cover after that!
I can't prove to you that this is the way Jesus was dealing with these immature men, but it might be that way. I may be missing an important point here that others see clearly, I don't know. :dontknow:
QuoteBut what I'd like to address is your post that seems to say: Jesus lied by answering the religious leaders at the time according to the idols of their hearts. I've often looked at the sarcasm displayed in some of Jesus' upbraidments of the Pharisees and Sadducees as just that: sarcasm.
So Jesus also used sarcasm in His ministry? Something for me to take into account. That at least clears up things.
Actually I had to look up that word. I never heard of the concept of sarcasm.... :wink:
QuoteBut He may have been using phrases like "you vipers, you snakes" as alluding to the fact that He knew they'd been spiritually fathered by the serpent!
Yes. Snake is a 'official Biblical concept'. And it are real life animals that are feared and looked negative upon.
So a good base for a parable.
QuoteWhen I would get a "smarty pants" answer from one of my kids, I'd often just put it back in their court by simply saying something like; "okay, you know it all! You are right and I am wrong!"
Yer very right for once mummy! :thumbsup: :laughing7:
Yes, I too noticed today how many ET supporting websites use this specific scripture to dismiss all UR related scripture. It is a very fascinating subject. Are there any other links here on Tentmaker to this specific topic?
Not only to teach ET but more.
One part of that place was Paradise (=good but not as good a Heaven)
The other part is semi-hell (not as bad as the Lake of Fire)
When Jesus died he sorta instantly went to the 1 or both parts to preach.
Jesus emptied the Paradise side to taking all to Heaven.
Nowadays all good go directly to Heaven.
The others go to that hell.
I have a quite extensive .pdf about this subject.
Complete with drawings and verses to support it.
Ask if interested.
K I am interested. Pls send it to me. Thanks
Blessings
Dee
There are some good articles on this site too. Here's one....
http://tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm
Paul
Why did Jesus tell stories instead of just saying it Plain ,The Truth ?
is that what you ask bro ? Jesus told us that it is not for everyone to know the mysteries bro just certain ones , chosen by Him for a specific purpose in God ,
Lazurus means whom God helps , to me He alone has mercy on who ever He choses and hardens those hearts [ ground for seed sowing ]
as He sees fit , so many arguments over the sovereignty of Gods will
the thing is to me that makes me wonder the most about it , He knows our hearts and we dont know our hearts at all ! and it would be like entrusting a LITTLE child with a big sword [GODS WORD ] and they would do more harm than good to themselves and others around them , so many do , And do just that~~~~!!!!!!
MAKING THEM NOT ACCOUNTABLE [trUST IS A BIG DEAL WITH GOD you must prove yourself /be tested and grow in Truth and grace ]
To me very few are chosen , and many are called , but flub up big time , and they loose what they think they had ! , thats scripture as well
making Gods word true and every man a liar :sigh:in all the stories , we see.. but dont really see HIM
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
we are weak and powerless over most things that happen in life/death
and to me it is learning to Trust God in both life and death that it will work out for the best for all concerned , just as the scriptures states
loving God first than your neighbour as yourself
wanting them to have what you have too ...which is hope and His Spirit and Life within you breathing life to others as well
hope this helps you some how ?
Quote from: rosered on November 11, 2008, 07:45:02 PM
Why did Jesus tell stories instead of just saying it Plain ,The Truth ?
is that what you ask bro ?
Nope sis.
The parables of Jesus always contain things that really exist.
The 100 sheep and 1 sheep of them is lost.
Sheep exist.
But if the parable used 100 Gods then that would use a lie as an example. Just because there is only 1 God.
RaL uses a none existing hell as an example.
Hell is a lie.
So Jesus uses a lie to teach something.
In an earlier post it was mentioned that Jesus frequently used sarcasm. Or debunk them with their own pagan examples.
That I can accept. :thumbsup:
LOL ,, OK Bro ,
i know that God send strong delusion that they believe a lie as well .. because they did not love the Truth /which is none other than Jesus Christ hummmm ??and this chapter of Job 12 is awesome and always comforted me some how , now I know why here it is
Job spoke with integrity and said what is right
Job 12:16 With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his. He leadeth counsellors away spoiled, and maketh the judges fools.
in its entirety , it is to good to let pass by ............
Job 12
Job Chides His Accusers
1Then Job responded,
2"Truly then you are the people,
And with you wisdom will die!
3"But I have intelligence as well as you;
I am not inferior to you.
And who does not know such things as these?
4"I am a joke to my friends,
The one who called on God and He answered him;
The just and blameless man is a joke.
5"He who is at ease holds calamity in contempt,
As prepared for those whose feet slip.
6"The tents of the destroyers prosper,
And those who provoke God are secure,
Whom God brings into their power.
7"But now ask the beasts, and let them teach you;
And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you.
8"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you;
And let the fish of the sea declare to you.
9"Who among all these does not know
That the hand of the LORD has done this,
10In whose hand is the life of every living thing,
And the breath of all mankind?
11"Does not the ear test words,
As the palate tastes its food?
12"Wisdom is with aged men,
With long life is understanding.
Job Speaks of the Power of God
13"With Him are wisdom and might;
To Him belong counsel and understanding.
14"Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt;
He imprisons a man, and there can be no release.
15"Behold, He restrains the waters, and they dry up;
And He sends them out, and they inundate the earth.
16"With Him are strength and sound wisdom,
The misled and the misleader belong to Him.
17"He makes counselors walk barefoot
And makes fools of judges.
18"He loosens the bond of kings
And binds their loins with a girdle.
19"He makes priests walk barefoot
And overthrows the secure ones.
20"He deprives the trusted ones of speech
And takes away the discernment of the elders.
21"He pours contempt on nobles
And loosens the belt of the strong.
22"He reveals mysteries from the darkness
And brings the deep darkness into light.
23"He makes the nations great, then destroys them;
He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
24"He deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.
25"They grope in darkness with no light,
And He makes them stagger like a drunken man.
wow , its not the devil , its the Lord that makes these things BE !!!
Okay maybe I just read that pdf. wrong (that WhiteWings sent me) but to me it supports ET. In a very convincing way actually. :dontknow:
Quote from: DeeDee on November 12, 2008, 08:06:26 AM
Okay maybe I just read that pdf. wrong (that WhiteWings sent me) but to me it supports ET. In a very convincing way actually. :dontknow:
I think what he sent you is the traditional church doctrine (two compartments in sheol etc.) That was exactly my point - they have built an entire theological structure on one parable which contradicts all we know about Hades/Sheol.
Quote from: DeeDee on November 12, 2008, 08:06:26 AM
Okay maybe I just read that pdf. wrong (that WhiteWings sent me) but to me it supports ET. In a very convincing way actually. :dontknow:
Or takes it out of context....
But is that really true?
The document is about what happens when Jesus dies and then a few more days.
It's not mainly a ET proof.
Ok many here won't agree about the good people already being in heaven right now.
Plus a few more things like that.
The hell messages in that document are also discussed on TM
There they are lets call it debunked.
QuoteThere they are lets call it debunked
What do you mean?
Firstborn.
I wouldn't be suprised that you are able to debunk the whole 70 pages within an hour.
But for 'the litte ones' like me an DeeDee I think the document looks real solid.
Without TM and similar sites I probably NEVER have figured out that eternal actually means age.
Same for several things from this paper.
However one thing I noticed right away and asked indirectly to a pastor.
If people are in the 2 compartments they are already judged.
Then the white throne judgement comes to rejudge them.
Just like Jesus is gonna say "Whoops, sorry mister Adam I accidently kicked you into hell 6000 years ago. Should have been paradise"
I don't have the answer at hand right now but it was similar to the white throne judgement isn't really judgement but merely a chance for the doomed to kneel/bow before they go from hell to LoF
Anyway. It's certainly not a document Garry would put on his site.
But perhaps he should and then debunk every letter of it.
If I look in the mind of DeeDee I think I see she believes everything Gary and the majority of the members wrote.
But a 'looks good' document like the one mentioned brings doubt.
Therefore I would welcome a thread where it's ripped to shreds.
You know UR can also be supported by burning ET documents...
Yes, thats a very good idea WhiteWings :thumbsup:
Sorry Firstborn, I only saw your post now. My eyes just originally caught WhiteWings post about calling it debunked - I did not see your reply above his.
Blessings
Dee
You can find the document here
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Hell/toc.htm
I compiled it into word and pdf document.
Nothing added/removed.
Just better layout.
Pagenumbering and a TOC
Knock if needed
hv u read the article at "http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellArticles/RichManParable.htm"?
I just did....
I've read several (very) similar articles.
And they look/are well founded rebutals to the classic interpretation.
Here is another Bible Parable website:
http://www.biblemeanings.info/Parables/
Blessings
Dee
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 12, 2008, 10:25:58 AM
You can find the document here
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Hell/toc.htm
I compiled it into word and pdf document.
Nothing added/removed.
Just better layout.
Pagenumbering and a TOC
Knock if needed
Also UR related is the part about Gibrah on that site:
Quotehttp://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Hell/01.htm
This site claims Sheol doesn't mean grave.
Gibrah means grave.
QuoteSheol is not the grave. A mistranslation--"Sheol" is also translated as grave approximately 25 times in the Old Testament, which has caused much confusion concerning the Doctrine of Hell. Jehovah's Witnesses utilize this translational error to the fullest, claiming Hell is the grave and nothing more. When we look at the Hebrew we find that the word "gibrah" is properly used for "grave." "Gibrah" is translated throughout the Old testament as "grave, burying place, and sepulchre," and properly so. Sheol is never in any case in the Old testament ever referring to grave, burying place or sepulchre; but, rather a place located in the center of the earth. The grave, burying place and sepulchre houses our dead bodies, but Sheol is the compartment that contains the souls and spirits that will never die and which were in those earthly bodies.
Separate therad on this document here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3589.0
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 12, 2008, 10:25:58 AM
You can find the document here
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Hell/toc.htm
I thought that this might be the green cheese under consideration. I bumped into it last night online. If anyone wants to debunk that website then the "Arguments Against" board is pretty much the place to unroll this roll of toilet paper and (http://martincisneros.freeforums.org/files/martincisneros/smilies/toilet.gif) :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 29, 2008, 10:09:59 PM
But what about the Lazarus and the rich man?
If it's not a parable then hell exists with real fire.
It's a parable that those Jesus was addressing understood----made sinners rejoice and the Pharisee murderously mad.
Some video on youtube that I think have an excellent explanation:
Part 1...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMPHAD-HKGM
Part 2... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w9yv81NNas&feature=channel
Part 3... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1gwuqeEfYg&feature=channel
Part 4...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmZ0KpXxruc&feature=related
WhiteWings,
Yes Jesus used sheep, which are real to prove a point.
Jesus used a poor woman who lost a coin to prove a point.
He used a son who was a prodigal and a pig farm to prove a point.
He use Hades to prove a point.
Yes Hades does exist but Hades is the grave or tomb. If you were to open up any tomb in all of Israel would even one of them have fire in them tormenting the entombed? No.
Is there an inseperable gulf inside any of these Hades or tombs? No.
Is there water flowing in any of these Hades or tombs? Maybe.
Are there angels? Yes. Do angels carry the dead to Hades? No, pallbearers do that. Never have angels carried dead Jews to their Hades or tomb.
Did Abraham exist? Yes.
Do rich people exist? Yes.
Do poor people exist? Yes.
Do dogs exist? Yes.
Does this help?
Hi everyone, this is an interesting thread and one I have been wondering about , for the very reason White Wings is 'bothered': why use 'consciousness after death' to show a point? If Jesus had used all the ingredients but maybe, the Richman on his deathbed having a vision, or something like that (keeping it within more realistic terms) . I am still bothered by the imagery Jesus chose.
regards Catherine
Quote from: Cat on November 12, 2008, 08:45:57 PM
Hi everyone, this is an interesting thread and one I have been wondering about , for the very reason White Wings is 'bothered': why use 'consciousness after death' to show a point? regards Catherine
The same reason trees talk in the Old Testament parables. Trees don't really talk, but only in parables. Dead people aren't conscious after death except in parables.
Quote from: Cat on November 12, 2008, 08:45:57 PM
Hi everyone, this is an interesting thread and one I have been wondering about , for the very reason White Wings is 'bothered': why use 'consciousness after death' to show a point? If Jesus had used all the ingredients but maybe, the Richman on his deathbed having a vision, or something like that (keeping it within more realistic terms) . I am still bothered by the imagery Jesus chose.
regards Catherine
I understand that concern.
Knowing how the Hebrews believed concerning the afterlife also included all your generations; in the otherwords it wasn't talking about your personal life it was talking about the legacy you left for your children.
Read the parable again in this light and understand what happened to these 'rich men' and you would recognize it was far better to be the poor man.
I will give you an example, I am having huge financial problems. Though I own a car, own a computer, own a big screen TV, own a PS3, own a Xbox360, own my furniture, own my bed, own three tv's, own an entire kitchen, etc. I lost my job 2 months ago and haven't been able to find a new job that pays. However, I am okay because I owe no debt. All I pay is my rent and my car insurance and so I have no stress. I can take my time and find the job that fits me.
Then there is one who lived beyond their means, has a car, has a computer, has a big screen TV, has a PS3, has a Xbox360, has furniture, has a bed, etc. all on credit and make continuous payments to their debt. They lost their job 2 months ago unable to find a new job that pays. However they owe debt and so they need to make payments on their debt, as well as living expenses. They have to settle for any job and slave to what the choose.
Hopefully that helps understand that legacy is one of Israel's understanding of the afterlife. What if the legacy could speak and warn them of what was to come for them...etc.
Hi Tony, I've read nearly all the OT (I skipped the genealogies a bit) and I can't remember trees talking? It has been a while since I read it. Which verses show this? cheers.
Hi SOtW, yes this has helped actually. Thanks.
Quote from: Cat on November 12, 2008, 11:26:55 PM
Hi Tony, I've read nearly all the OT (I skipped the genealogies a bit) and I can't remember trees talking? It has been a while since I read it. Which verses show this? cheers.
Hi SOtW, yes this has helped actually. Thanks.
Ask and ye shall receive:
Jdg 9:8-15 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. (9) But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? (10) And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. (11) But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? (12) Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. (13) And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? (14) Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. (15) And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.
Just as a parable using trees and vines and brambles talking, so also a parable is used in the New Testament concerning dead people talking but, in reality, they really can't because:
Ecc 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die, But
the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Ecc 9:10 "All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For
there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the Hades where you are going."
Thanks Tony. This is more understable than the 'talking' ass or donkey somewhere else. I know I'm going off topic a bit, but 'talking' animals used in a real situation, not like the trees in Judges, do sound far fetched and like a 'fable'. I wonder why? Anyway, I think I'm ok with the Lazarus story now.
regards
Catherine
Quote from: Cat on November 13, 2008, 06:47:23 PM
Thanks Tony. This is more understable than the 'talking' ass or donkey somewhere else. I know I'm going off topic a bit, but 'talking' animals used in a real situation, not like the trees in Judges, do sound far fetched and like a 'fable'. I wonder why? Anyway, I think I'm ok with the Lazarus story now.
regards
Catherine
Actually, animals are quite easy to understand 'cause whatever they say, whenever they choose to say it, it's always from the heart. It's people that I'm still trying to figure out.
Quote from: Cat on November 13, 2008, 06:47:23 PM
Thanks Tony. This is more understable than the 'talking' ass or donkey somewhere else. I know I'm going off topic a bit, but 'talking' animals used in a real situation, not like the trees in Judges, do sound far fetched and like a 'fable'. I wonder why? Anyway, I think I'm ok with the Lazarus story now.
regards
Catherine
Catherine, did you never see Mr. Ed the talking horse? LOL!
My friend has some Parrots and if they squak too much he or his wife will spray them with the water bottle. It's funny because when one of them starts squacking the others will tell the bird "You're gonna get the water bottle!" And if they walk by them in the morning without letting them out they get sad and say: "You don't love me?" I wonder if the animals lost their communicability with humanity right after getting kicked out of the garden and the animals saw God killing an animal to clothe them?
Glad to have been helpful.
Tony
God didn't kill any animal to cloth them. :)
Quote from: Tony N on November 13, 2008, 09:01:45 PM
I wonder if the animals lost their communicability with humanity right after getting kicked out of the garden and the animals saw God killing an animal to clothe them?
I don't have the book titles and additional authors names handy, but Alexander Hislop isn't the only one that's written on Babylon and Nimrod. It was believed by the ancients that Nimrod introduced savagery to the animals and got them killing each other and people. After Noah's flood, the animals were just fearful/leery of us. But it's making increasingly more and more sense to me from the Scriptures, historical anecdotes and research that I bump into every once in a while, and personal experience with animals that the Tower of Babel shut down over 50% of our communication ability with animals. Circuses beat animals into subjection and use electrocution to get what they want out of animals. And you've got varying levels of communication ability that people diligently cultivate on their own all of the way from being Whisperers to something approximating the Dr. Doolittle phenomenon. (The history of Catholic saints is full of these instances.) But I'm convinced that things got jacked up at Babel.
Much of this is going to be corrected before the millenium, both because of Bible prophecy and the outpouring of God's Spirit, and because of the ingenuity of man. Have you seen the microchips that they've experimented with for dogs? They can put something tiny on top of their throat (i.e. external, unless they've gone more advanced with this since I last heard about it) and they're able to get the animals to have a very very basic human vocabulary 'cause the little computer chip makes up the difference on their ability to form words.
Limiting man's ability to communicate with animals was probably with the intent of keeping people from hogging all of the animals in one little spot of the world, and also to protect the animals from the occult and other abuses that people have gotten into with animals over the centuries. There's probably a thousand different reasons for man's ability to communicate with animals having needed to be interfered with. The way a passage or two are written in the Mosaic law, and you'll know what I'm talking about if you think about it for a sec., it was probably also to protect the animals from people with overly romantic ideas. :icon_jokercolor: Animals have the unique position of having had the breath of life breathed into them by Adam prior to the fall. God formed them of the dust of the earth and brought them to the man to see what he would call them and whatever the man called them, that's what they were. If Adam's pattern prior to the fall was the same as Jesus' pattern in John 8, then the only thing that Adam called the animals was what God told him to call them.
Craig, what were you referring to? Were you referring to God having clothed man with snake skin, since snakes shed and it would have represented man's nature at the time as well as it being a glimpse of the Cross? Some people try to insist that there was an animal offering at that time, but an animal offering in the modern expectation of the word didn't happen for centuries. Abel didn't even kill in simply presenting animals to the Lord. People read killing and/or burned sacrifice into the earlier chapters of Genesis, but it doesn't exist in the text. Children were presented to Jesus. Does that mean that their throats were cut and...? LOL! Cain got into it with God because #1 he was moved by visible signs of God's approval instead of simply believing that God was with them per the promise of God bruising the head of the serpent, and #2 he offered his veggies to God when he got around to it, very likely after things were spoiling, and #3 because he had an attitude with his brother and wasn't reconciled to his brother before coming and offering his offering as Jesus later said in the Sermon on the Mount. It wasn't for want of blood that Cain met with God's disapproval.
Since this story was about something happening in death, and we know everybody will be raised from the dead, it isn't about "hell" as the popular doctrine about it goes. If the rich man dies and goes to hell, and as some have argued with me, this is an example of what it's like, then it would mean everybody will get out of hell. Death will be abolished. Nobody will stay in death.
I don't consider us to not be conscious after we leave our physical body in death either. I should add, however, that as we sleep here, we may also sleep there. I've been out of my body and was aware of experiencing things in several circumstances. At least one time I didn't know if I was in the body or out of the body. Experience is not irrelevant. When Paul spoke of one possessed by God into the 3rd heaven he says several times, "in the body or out of the body, I know not." He couldn't have said this if he taught that apart from the body we are without consciousness. What I understand in the story about Elijah, what the words could mean, is that his spirit went out of his body and saw the wrong that his servant did in accepting money and clothes from Naamam the Syrian who had been healed of leprosy. Even suggesting these things are are experienced through God's Spirit rather than our own, (though it is by means of God either way) it still seems on certain occasions like the spirit goes out.
This Lazarus and Dives story can be used as a parable; but, it has no direct bearing on the right or wrong of eternal torment versus universal salvation debate, even if taken as a literal description of things experienced by human spirits after disembodiment in physical death, because all will be resurrected.
As an explanation borrowed from Sadhu Sundar Singh of the fire or flames, consider someone who is a drunkard leaving his body in death. As a spirit he has no means to quench his thirst for liquor. That lust will burn him. There probably will also be demons attached to him that torment him which he must overcome. That's why I tell people that suicide is not an answer. It may be more difficult without a body. We must undergo whatever it takes to be formed into what aspect of the image and likeness of God that He has determined is our lot. Go as far as you can now in this life. Who knows, you may even mature sufficiently to prevent death from removing you. Never the less, with or without this body you are in the hands of the potter and cannot escape. You must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary.
I agree. Rich man and Lazarus parable is completely irrelevant to whether or not punishments would be eternal. I would argue that being a Pre-Cross story that it's not even necessarily proof of afterlife punishment, although I'm leaning towards afterlife punishments again as likely happening in some instances, although I'm not dogmatic about it. It's useful evangelistically, though, to the wicked, to newer disciples of the Lord, and to the Church. I've not been able to get around the moral relativism issue that too easily tries to piggy back off of the no afterlife punishment whatsoever message. I tried to minimize it for a while, but it's just gotten glaring over the last few days. If nothing else, "Hell" is a useful metaphor for the hard headed so you can say to them that their nonsense ends or else, and God's loving arms will be waiting on you after you get out of the washer and dryer. I don't think that having a pattern of parabolic ministry similar to our Lord's is a bad thing. In some ways it'll demonstrate a greater level of maturity, grasp of the truth, and skillfullness in teaching.
Quote from: reFORMer on November 14, 2008, 01:32:50 AM
Who knows, you may even mature sufficiently to prevent death from removing you.
Do you suppose that that's possible for this life/age? If so, once one has gone through whatever "processing" do you think it comes down to "perspective" and "decision"? I've known of both Catholics and Pentecostals that have had the full spectrum of experiences from bilocation and levitation/flight to walking through walls virtually at will, but in their bodies and even with witnesses. Yet, whether I think of 20th century examples or people from previous centuries -- they're all ""dead"" ""Heaven"" is all that many, many have known of the Gospel and where their heart's yearning has been to where immortality and death being under foot GENUINELY hasn't appealed to most Christians in a Biblical sense to where you could give them all of the powers of Superman from any/all movies, comic books, and television programs you can imagine and if many of them had the alternative of being a deliverer here or of going on to heaven and they'd drop dead in a heart beat!! Certain levels of death involve selfishness when one is sufficiently in charge of their power to bless, have mastered their humility, and aren't allowing disobedience to flow from their mouths.
QuoteActually, animals are quite easy to understand 'cause whatever they say, whenever they choose to say it, it's always from the heart. It's people that I'm still trying to figure out.
I soooooooooooooooooooo agree with you :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: DeeDee on November 14, 2008, 08:12:14 AM
QuoteActually, animals are quite easy to understand 'cause whatever they say, whenever they choose to say it, it's always from the heart. It's people that I'm still trying to figure out.
I soooooooooooooooooooo agree with you :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Woooof Woof :laughing7:
If eternal torment (ET) is so real why was it never preached in the OT?
The only (??) hellisch verse in the OT shown below refers to a 'state' on earth. Not in eternity/afterlife.
But lets assume it refers to ET then God 'forgot' to mention ET for 3630 years (4166 BC(Adam) - Isaiah 535 BC)
Paul never mentioned ET in his letters or in Acts.
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
=> Parable that uses the valley of Hinnom as an example.
Quote from: SOtW on November 13, 2008, 09:04:14 PM
God didn't kill any animal to cloth them. :)
Well, Yahweh killed an animal, ripped the skin off of it, made tunics for A & E and showed them how to do it.
They were clothed in glory at first and able to approach Yahweh. After they sinned they lost that glory and were afraid to approach.
Gen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.
The next step was for Yahweh to cloth them and in so doing, via sacrifice of the animal that was used to clothe them, He was propitiated. This sacrifice was a picture of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God to cover the sins of the world (see 1 John 2:2).
Cain and Able were carrying on this sacrificial system given to them by their parents who received it of Yahweh after they sinned. But Cain, as we know, rebelled and would not bring an animal sacrifice and so was told to leave the area and hence be out of God's presence.
But this is far afield of the intent of this thread concerning the rich man and Lazarus.
Love,
Tony
QuoteGen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.
I've always thought God did this to protect them by hiding their glory. Our natural state in the garden--Adam in the garden--is glory. Adam is the seed carrier. But God hides this fact under skins of beasts so that they can move safely in a fallen world. Adam, the son of God, is not a beast, rather, he is like his Father. That is why satan seeks to humiliate and kill him, as he did with Jesus. So, for now, Adam is hidden under tunics of skin, until his true glory can be revealed.
Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 05:20:05 PM
QuoteGen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.
I've always thought God did this to protect them by hiding their glory. Our natural state in the garden--Adam in the garden--is glory. Adam is the seed carrier. But God hides this fact under skins of beasts so that they can move safely in a fallen world. Adam, the son of God, is not a beast, rather, he is like his Father. That is why satan seeks to humiliate and kill him, as he did with Jesus. So, for now, Adam is hidden under tunics of skin, until his true glory can be revealed.
Hi Molly,
I think that their glory, while in the garden, is what concealed their nakedness. It was after they sinned that their glory departed and they then could see they were naked. And so after that they needed skins to conceal their nakedness.
Quote from: Tony N on November 14, 2008, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 05:20:05 PM
QuoteGen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.
I've always thought God did this to protect them by hiding their glory. Our natural state in the garden--Adam in the garden--is glory. Adam is the seed carrier. But God hides this fact under skins of beasts so that they can move safely in a fallen world. Adam, the son of God, is not a beast, rather, he is like his Father. That is why satan seeks to humiliate and kill him, as he did with Jesus. So, for now, Adam is hidden under tunics of skin, until his true glory can be revealed.
Hi Molly,
I think that their glory, while in the garden, is what concealed their nakedness. It was after they sinned that their glory departed and they then could see they were naked. And so after that they needed skins to conceal their nakedness.
well, that's all about their perception, isn't it?
Who told you that you were naked?--Gen 3
about the rich man a lazurus , I just wanted to say the whole chapter is about the same thing and it is a picture to see the Truth [Christ work]
it is about the blinding of Israel [time they had and said they see to be made blind , ignorant of the things of GodBeing the NT /NC ] and it was now the time given to the gentiles to come in ..
the taking away stewardship and giving it to another
the poor beggars [Lazurus ] Meaning whom God helps
there are lots of scripture to back this up by Paul s epistles
the time of torment for the rich man had come , cut off
his tongue needs to be cooled [judged for the idle words] , the gentiles are those whom Jesus said you will not see me till you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord ...
Jam 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
they have the Law of Moses and do not obey it , so how will they believe one rased from the dead ? ..
James summarizes the desolation that will come on the "rich men"....those who trust in riches in the church...they have "nourished" their hearts in a day of slaughter:
James 5: 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Jesus stands at the door....the Judge stands before the door.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
We are not to "grudge" against each other...we are to remember the "brotherly covenant" and love one another.
White Wings, you've made an interesting observation- regarding OT teachings on hell etc. Does anyone know what the Jews understood the state of the dead to be and if they believed in eternal suffering or punishment? sorry this is going off thread a bit, but it ties in with the Jews and what they believed in say David's time and then in Jesus' time.
regards
Catherine :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: reFORMer on November 14, 2008, 01:32:50 AM
Since this story was about something happening in death, and we know everybody will be raised from the dead, it isn't about "hell" as the popular doctrine about it goes. If the rich man dies and goes to hell, and as some have argued with me, this is an example of what it's like, then it would mean everybody will get out of hell. Death will be abolished. Nobody will stay in death.
As an explanation borrowed from Sadhu Sundar Singh of the fire or flames, consider someone who is a drunkard leaving his body in death. As a spirit he has no means to quench his thirst for liquor. That lust will burn him. There probably will also be demons attached to him that torment him which he must overcome. That's why I tell people that suicide is not an answer. It may be more difficult without a body. We must undergo whatever it takes to be formed into what aspect of the image and likeness of God that He has determined is our lot. Go as far as you can now in this life. Who knows, you may even mature sufficiently to prevent death from removing you. Never the less, with or without this body you are in the hands of the potter and cannot escape. You must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary.
Hi ReFORMer ,
you made a good point being dead to what ? to God , thats is what Jesus hints to in He is the God of the living ,
and
Christ work is to bring / raise up the dead to the Living GOD
the middle ground
I know that death come to all in the fact of being our lives mean nothing and we are to be humbled by death of the will /soul / desire
in doing whatever we please
that suffering like King Neb's having it all and his way till the Lord come and humbled him to submission , what can you do , where can you go to escape that judgment of God ?
thanks for the post bro .........
Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 05:29:03 PM
Quote from: Tony N on November 14, 2008, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2008, 05:20:05 PM
QuoteGen 3:21 And making is Yahweh Elohim for Adam and for his wife tunics of skin, and is clothing them.
I've always thought God did this to protect them by hiding their glory. Our natural state in the garden--Adam in the garden--is glory. Adam is the seed carrier. But God hides this fact under skins of beasts so that they can move safely in a fallen world. Adam, the son of God, is not a beast, rather, he is like his Father. That is why satan seeks to humiliate and kill him, as he did with Jesus. So, for now, Adam is hidden under tunics of skin, until his true glory can be revealed.
Hi Molly,
I think that their glory, while in the garden, is what concealed their nakedness. It was after they sinned that their glory departed and they then could see they were naked. And so after that they needed skins to conceal their nakedness.
well, that's all about their perception, isn't it?
Who told you that you were naked?
--Gen 3
Do you think God would skin an animal to cover their perception?
By asking:
Who told you that you were naked? God was not saying: "You aren't naked. Someone must have lied to you cause you look perfectly clothed to Me." God was just trying to get them to fess up to their crime. They saw that they were naked. God saw they were naked else He would not skin an animal to cover their nakedness.
Interesting, eh?
Quote from: reFORMer on November 14, 2008, 01:32:50 AM
Never the less, with or without this body you are in the hands of the potter and cannot escape. You must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary.
Hi reFORMer, I am curious as to your above statement.
What if there is no resurrection of our bodies?
If Christ's body was not resurrected then our faith would be in vain. God could not do anything with His Son if He did not bring His body back to life.
Also, the Scriptures do not say that mankind "must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary." Rather, Romans 5:18,19 is very explicit that mankind must be brought to perfection by Christ's obedience.
Tony, I've always believed that the resurrected Jesus' body was 'changed' into a spirity body (Paul mentions our bodies changing somewhere). I think the spirit body much be similar or be comprised of some of the physical body - hence the marks of the nails and Jesus eating with them, but flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, so Jesus' body had altered to be spirit which is immortal (it could pass through walls and appear in the room). I may be wrong, but He was brought back to life which is the most important thing. :happygrin:
Quote from: Cat on November 14, 2008, 09:29:49 PM
Tony, I've always believed that the resurrected Jesus' body was 'changed' into a spirity body (Paul mentions our bodies changing somewhere). I think the spirit body much be similar or be comprised of some of the physical body - hence the marks of the nails and Jesus eating with them, but flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, so Jesus' body had altered to be spirit which is immortal (it could pass through walls and appear in the room). I may be wrong, but He was brought back to life which is the most important thing. :happygrin:
Hi Cat,
right now, the Bible says our bodies are soulish bodies. Does that mean we walking around as a vaporous soul? No. It just means that our bodies are regulated by soulish desires.
Paul then says that our bodies will be roused spiritual bodies. Does that mean we will be spirits? No. It just means that our bodies will be regulated by God's spirit rather than soul.
Jesus was not and is not a spirit being. When He was raised He told His disciples to feel him and see that he was not a spirit for, He said, a spirit hath not flesh and blood as you see Me have.
Ah, yes, I forgot He said that. Very interesting.
Quote from: Tony N on November 14, 2008, 08:16:03 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on November 14, 2008, 01:32:50 AM
Never the less, with or without this body you are in the hands of the potter and cannot escape. You must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary.
Hi reFORMer, I am curious as to your above statement.
What if there is no resurrection of our bodies?
If Christ's body was not resurrected then our faith would be in vain. God could not do anything with His Son if He did not bring His body back to life.
I'm not even remotely thinking of "no resurrection." What I was talking about was our conditions in this life with a body of humiliation or as disembodied spirit in death, "With or without this body." In Hebrews, what it is said we are coming to, in contradistinction to things under the Old Covenant, includes, "the spirits of just men made perfect." It seems clear to me, with the possible exception of only a couple of people out of all I've ever met, the justified believers have quite some way to go before they can be considered "perfect, mature or finished," even at the point of their deaths. It seems necessary for God to continue developing them after death. While I don't consider myself to be what has been called "a creedal Christian," creeds are acknowledged, even by their endeared proponents, to be our words to God and lesser than Scripture which is God's words to us. Yet, on this matter, it is consistent with Scripture and was inherently contained within what the early church considered indispensable for our faith as expressed in the words about Christ, that He, "Descended into hell." (cp., 1 Peter 3:18-20) There he preached the message the Father had given Him, God's command to eonian life. "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6) As Jesus said, "Who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall He live."
This is something that may be offered as a possible pivotal difference between ET & UR: God's saving work does not stop with our deaths. It continues until He has accomplished all His good will. Change that particular idea, that destiny is determined by death, that God only loves you 'til you die, and no difference in any other doctrine needs to be made for the believer to accept Jesus as the Savior of All.
Quote from: Tony N on November 14, 2008, 08:16:03 PM
Also, the Scriptures do not say that mankind "must be brought to perfection by whatever means necessary." Rather, Romans 5:18,19 is very explicit that mankind must be brought to perfection by Christ's obedience.
I used the illustration of our being clay in the hands of the Creator, our Father, for the context of saying we will be brought to what uniquely of the image and likeness of God he has determined for each one of us without exception. In the course of accomplishing this it may be assumed various workings will be brought to bear on the vessel. It is somewhat similar to what has been called one's own "personal testimony." The out working of God's salvation when it becomes manifest in any given vessel is a unique story that is hung on the gospel. It is not God's work in us that saves us. It is God's work in Christ which is our sure foundation. But there is a building to be erected upon this foundation, both personally and corporately. We are being constituted the dwelling place of God, and much experience is thereupon to testify of the grace of God in the course of being conformed to the image of His Son.
There's a song, I think it's called, "God leads His dear children along." The first line, if I remember correctly, is "In shady green pastures so rich and so sweet..." The chorus is:
Some though the waters,
some through the flood,
some throught the fire,
but, all through the blood.
Some through great sorrow,
but God gives a song,
in the night season
and all the day long.
I just posted something called: "Death Does Not Determine Destiny"
I'd put a link if I knew how. Maybe a Moderater will insert it for us. It's here:
Tentmaker Discussion Forum > Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Discussions on Universal Salvation > Death Does Not Determine Destiny
It's by no means what a more complete examination of death would be; but, it deals with the aforementioned topic. I could of put it in the same place in the thread started by FineLinen "Preaching to the dead" but it seemed a somewhat separate topic.
JMR
Quote from: Cat on November 14, 2008, 06:01:16 PM
White Wings, you've made an interesting observation- regarding OT teachings on hell etc. Does anyone know what the Jews understood the state of the dead to be and if they believed in eternal suffering or punishment? sorry this is going off thread a bit, but it ties in with the Jews and what they believed in say David's time and then in Jesus' time.
regards
Catherine :Sparkletooth:
I believe the Jews predominately believed Genesis 3 and the Ecclesiastes 12:6 account of dust returning to dust and breathe to breathe.
Plus the Jews had this:
Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Eccl 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Some have suggested (as I have) that while in captivity to pagan nations the pagan afterlife torment myths crept into Jewish theology.
Quote from: reFORMer on November 15, 2008, 04:23:22 AM
I'm not even remotely thinking of "no resurrection." What I was talking about was our conditions in this life with a body of humiliation or as disembodied spirit in death, "With or without this body." In Hebrews, what it is said we are coming to, in contradistinction to things under the Old Covenant, includes, "the spirits of just men made perfect." It seems clear to me, with the possible exception of only a couple of people out of all I've ever met, the justified believers have quite some way to go before they can be considered "perfect, mature or finished," even at the point of their deaths. It seems necessary for God to continue developing them after death.
Tony's reply:
I think you are basing your ideas on a poor translation when you quote the KJV as "the spirits of just men made perfect." The Hebrew believers "have come" (perfect tense) to these things:
Heb 12:22 But you have come to mount Zion, and the city of the living God, celestial Jerusalem, and to ten thousand messengers,
Heb 12:23 to a universal convocation, and to the ecclesia of the firstborn, registered in the heavens, and to God, the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of the just perfected,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a fresh covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling which is speaking better than Abel."
22 There is a studied contrast here between the scene presented to the physical eye at Mount Sinai and the prospect of faith in connection with the new covenant. Mount Sinai itself is suggestive of another mountain which is the ultimate home of Israel in the new earth. The Lord is present, as He was in the wilderness, but here He is the Light, rather than the Lightning. Instead of being warned away for fear of death, the saints dwell near Him and enjoy the fruits of the tree of life and the draught of the river of life (Un.21, 22).
The law was given by the mandate of messengers (Ac.7:53). Now they are ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are about to be enjoying the allotment of salvation (Heb.1:14).
The universal convocation here referred to is probably that which is convoked at the opening of the day of the Lord when the representatives of the whole creation are summoned together before the judgments which usher in the kingdom are visited on the earth (Un.4, 5).
Here is what A.E. Knoch said concerning the above verses in the Concordant Commentary:
23 The ecclesia of the firstborn recalls the passover, when the firstborn in Egypt were saved by the blood (Ex.12:15). As a consequence Jehovah claimed all the firstborn for Himself (Ex.13:2, 34:19). Later the Lord took the Levites in exchange for the firstborn (Nu.3:12-13). Thus those ransomed by blood were the "ecclesia of the firstborn" in the wilderness. These Jehovah claimed for His own and these He brought near to Him in the Levites. So that the "church of the firstborn" comprises those under the shelter of the blood before the kingdom is set up. In the wilderness they were numbered on earth (Nu.3:42), here they are registered in heaven.
God as Judge is especially appropriate to those who were waiting for Him to arise and judge His own people and the whole earth, as a preparation for the establishment of the kingdom. Not so do we know God.
24 Under the law the spirits of the just never reached perfection, for its rites brought nothing to a finality. Perfection comes only through the Antitype of the ritual of the law.
24 Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, but