Free will and eternal hell

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Paul 
  Can I speak from experience here ? I was just as your Friend  mate ...
   your Friend  whom the time has not come yet , to be delivered from his own [sin, error] it takes time for  the fleshly lusts  to become  so bad and  he becomes so EMPTY   , filling them desires only leaves you wanting and needing more and more to the point of where  you want to be DEAD  , 
you see when death  becomes your desire over constant sinning and knowing your  lost and empty  ,  and you are just so sick of  what life has become to you  , you are like a dog chasing its tail , the  circle /cycle 
  becomes so meaningless  and literal death seems like an option   because you have been in a self destrucive  mode of thinking for such a long time , you do contemplate your options  ,  God sounds good to you  finally after digging a hole so deep you cannot get out of it , you are trapped and you know it ... the sting of death has hurt everything around you for so long a time   because you are in a state of mourning and loss of what to do , you have heard of God but DO NOT KNOW HIM ,, and doubt you can be saved  , we all have felt worthless  from time to time  , no matter what  we try to do to get relief /peace , rest even
our Hope is in God  and we dont even know that at the time .. 
wishing you friend wellness and peace and the seal of God in his mind and heart ..........


Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

Hi rosered,

I can speak from experience too,  from my experience I chose to stop what my friend keeps doing.  I give credit to God even though I did not call upon Gods name to quit at the time.

In fact I eventually saw that it was me that wanted to do that and God bringing me on this earth and my having circumstances beyond my control was not an excuse to continue.


My friend is actually glad that he can say that it is not his fault, because living that life is what he wants to do.   It causes his wife great grief and he tells her that God wants him to cause that grief upon her or he would not do the things he does. 



As I have said before, I do not believe this issue is an "either" "or"  I think it is a combination of God drawing, our consciousness to discern, and God at times allowing our will to take its course.   Are we reaping what we sow,  or are we reaping what God has sown?   If it is not our fault, then we are not reaping what WE sow.   We are reaping what God has made us sow.

We might believe it is all semantics if it is Gods will to reconcile and teach everyone that cannot be resisted.   But I will continue to try to get my friend to understand that God will not make someone give up and relinquish themselves to evil. 

He may allow it, and people may try to argue all the nonsense that the term semantics brings to the table, thats fine.


But my friend needs to understand that even if he gives in to those desires, it is not God standing there going.  """Come on buddy, do the drugs, you know you want them and I want you to do them, come on,  yeah, there ya go, stick that needle in your arm, you cannot resist because thats what I want you to do.  Yeah, now Go beat your wife cause I need you to beat her, there ya go.   Well done my good and faithful servant.""""


If God orchestrates everything through the direct manipulation of our being rather than allowing the freedom within his sovereignty and power to allow our freedom and PLAN for what we do so that we do learn and understand how powerless we are, then the bible contradicts itself when God says he will tempt no man.

[rosered]

 Paul Hazelwood

But my friend needs to understand that even if he gives in to those desires, it is not God standing there going.  """Come on buddy, do the drugs, you know you want them and I want you to do them, come on,  yeah, there ya go, stick that needle in your arm, you cannot resist because thats what I want you to do.  Yeah, now Go beat your wife cause I need you to beat her, there ya go.   Well done my good and faithful servant.""""


If God orchestrates everything through the direct manipulation of our being rather than allowing the freedom within his sovereignty and power to allow our freedom and PLAN for what we do so that we do learn and understand how powerless we are, then the bible contradicts itself when God says he will tempt no man.

Hi Paul ,   with that said ,  I see you have a righteous anger  towards sin , and I love to see that in anyone , who stands up and  speaks out against it !! more so doing something about it ...........
No ,It is not God saying'' its ok friend to do whatever you please''
and hurt everyone around you , by doing as YOU DO 
  If that is his excuse  , he has some major growing up to do !
  One thing I have learned  about  being  childish is blaming everyone  , but yourself  for the way your life is going !
    thanks for the  more direct   speech ,  I feel your pain bro , it is sad to stand by and watch someone you care about self destruct ... and destroying everything around it /him [act ]
God help ....

[pneuma]

But my friend needs to understand that even if he gives in to those desires, it is not God standing there going.  """Come on buddy, do the drugs, you know you want them and I want you to do them, come on,  yeah, there ya go, stick that needle in your arm, you cannot resist because thats what I want you to do.  Yeah, now Go beat your wife cause I need you to beat her, there ya go.   Well done my good and faithful servant.""""

A little hard core for some to hear bro, but right on the money.

[willieH]

Now you make the mistake you always accuse me of. You look at my actions not my spirit.
If I posted daily on a Mickey Mouse forum would you say I'm drawn there by the Disney god?

Whoa!  Calm down dude!  :mshock:  Where did I ...ACCUSE... you of anything?  I merely pointed out the frequency of your visits here, display INTEREST... take a chill pill!

Or if I frequently visit a WW2 forum I suddenly am a soldier?

Do you visit a WW2 forum WW?  :dontknow:  AT ALL?  :dunno:

Though I cannot be a visual witness, it is my guess that you DO NOT visit many (if any) other forums... you spend so much time here... you gotta eat & sleep, sometime!

I read debates between people discussing McCain vs Obama. I'm not even allowed to vote in the US.

Osama bin laden ...I'm sure is very interested in the upcoming US election, doesn't mean he wishes he could vote in it...  :dontknow:

I like to read science books about the moon. But I'm not howling at the full moon.

Hmmm... what's that noise in the background?  :Chinscratch:

So being here doesn't make me a Chistian.

WHO named you a Christian?  :dontknow:  ...As I recall, it was YOU that stated a wish to become "addicted" to JESUS -- eh?  :dontknow:

It like the verse that states that it's not about speaking the words of God but acting to them....

Whatever... get off your  :soap: ...and take your wrath elsewhere... It is not on my agenda to convince you to be a Christian...  Only GOD can do this... and he WILL do this... whether you see it or not...  :thumbdown:

Why don't we ignore each other from now on... then you won't have cause to raise your blood pressure through the roof again...  :thumbdown:

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PaulH... :hithere:

Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Let me give you an earthly example (realizing that this example is TIME and FINITE bound), then explain the SPIRITUAL (which is NOT TIME and FINITE bound) as I see it: 

The government of the city, posts (ordains) the driving speed limit on the street.  Because it has DECIDED the LAW to be, does not in any way TEMPT the driver to EXCEED it... the TEMPTATION of the driver, emerges from Himself... and either RECOGNIZES the LAW or DISOBEYS it... 

Though the City Govenment had nothing to do with the decisions made by individuals concerning observing or not observing the LAW, ...it cannot be entirely DISASSOCIATED with the LAW, ...this process however does not indicate the City Government as a "TEMPTING" entity.

Know that, like GOD... the City Government... DOES have PURPOSE in establishing the LAW -- that being, the safety of ALL...

But unlike GOD (who is IN CONTROL of all aspects of the keeping or breaking of His LAW)...  FINITELY becomes separate from the decision making processes of the individual...

GOD is the CREATOR of ALL things including EVIL (Is 45:7)

He also is the CREATOR of how all processes work within it, to include the NATURAL gravitations which man has TO IT...

Read one more verse down PAUL...

James 1:14 ...but EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he is drawn away of his own LUST, and enticed...

GOD does not tempt MAN... but is the Creator of MAN ...AND... the ENTIRE state of the NATURAL forces which DRAW him toward DISOBEDIENCE of His COMMANDS...

It is DECLARED in His WORD that man would (and will) do so... as it indicates over and over...  That GOD says something, means it shall happen... naming ALL as SINNERS... which is PRIOR or before that actually occurs... 

EVERY human being YET to be born, is ALREADY a SINNER, from the ETERNAL perspective.  :yes:

The WORD of GOD is not a "newspaper-like" report of the doings of man... It emerges from ETERNITY, ...as WORDS, of YHVH which cannot be ALTERED...

This is something which must be viewed in the SPIRIT, in order to grasp it.

That GOD's WORD notes Judas as the one who betrayed CHRIST, is NOT a report of "who did it" as some "after the fact", newsflash... It was ALREADY so... for the Lamb WAS slain from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... meaning that Judas' actions from ETERNAL perspective ARE... factual before they occured in TIME...

It is a DECLARATION which PRECEEDS TIME as an ETERNAL ENTITY, that contained this information BEFORE it ever occured in TIME...  :dontknow:

The WORD of GOD is not CONFINED to time... rather, it is an entity which DEFINES TIME and that which occurs WITHIN IT... from and IN, the position of the ETERNAL...

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

[rosered]

  well said Willie H! 
But I for one still think  a righteous anger moved by /in love   the new man in Christ  does not condone  wrong /evil brother or not concern for his well being means you should warn  them  in Ezek the watchman on the wall   was  given favor/grace seal of God  for blowing the trumpets ...


The New Life
17Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18They are darkened in their understanding alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19They have become callous and( have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

20But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22to  put off your old self,] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and   to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

25Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26(BK) Be angry and do not sin;/ MISS THE MARK , ERROR do not let the sun go down on your anger, 
27and give no opportunity to the devil.
28Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. 29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted,
forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you

  Some of the troubles UR  have is thinking God does it all and you have no need to do anything it will work out in the end  , that is a mistake  of thinking to me   
It is just how I feel about it sometimes ... :sigh:  Love is not some sweet ooowey  gooey  thing , It is brutal  Love can be  so honest it hurts like  mad and  it can be the very thing to make you see /change your mind  about  what you are doing  , kindness is being TRUTHFUL  WHEN  WRONGDOING IS BEING DONE   ! and these verses use the same concept of honesty to me  for all concerned

this is how I feel right or wrong ..
  love to all ..rose

[Molly]

Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Paul 
  Can I speak from experience here ? I was just as your Friend  mate ...
   your Friend  whom the time has not come yet , to be delivered from his own [sin, error] it takes time for  the fleshly lusts  to become  so bad and  he becomes so EMPTY   , filling them desires only leaves you wanting and needing more and more to the point of where  you want to be DEAD  , 
you see when death  becomes your desire over constant sinning and knowing your  lost and empty  ,  and you are just so sick of  what life has become to you  , you are like a dog chasing its tail , the  circle /cycle 
  becomes so meaningless  and literal death seems like an option   because you have been in a self destrucive  mode of thinking for such a long time , you do contemplate your options  ,  God sounds good to you  finally after digging a hole so deep you cannot get out of it , you are trapped and you know it ... the sting of death has hurt everything around you for so long a time   because you are in a state of mourning and loss of what to do , you have heard of God but DO NOT KNOW HIM ,, and doubt you can be saved  , we all have felt worthless  from time to time  , no matter what  we try to do to get relief /peace , rest even
our Hope is in God  and we dont even know that at the time .. 
wishing you friend wellness and peace and the seal of God in his mind and heart ..........


Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

God is a strange taskmaster. Yes, he directs our paths, Yes, he gives us orders and commands, Yes, he turns evil into good when we mess up or sends his angels to lift us up when we are surrounded by the enemy.  But, what does he want from us?  What does he expect?    That's at the bottom of the question of whether or not we have free will.  

For me, He wants relationship with us.  He wants to be able to put us where He needs us and have us do what He needs us to do.   We are to be his right arm, the right arm of God. But, we can't do any of that if we do not have relationship with Him.

To that end, He allows us to learn like any child learns, by trial and error, and by experience and real world evidence. So that we will love Him from the bottom of our hearts.  So that we will trust Him when he shows us something.  So that we will continue to trust Him, no matter how bad things look.

Does a kitten have free will?  The scientists (what spirit are they?) did an experiment where they put kittens in a gondola from birth.  They were carried everywhere they went, and not allowed to walk.  The kittens ended up functionally blind.  As adults, they would walk right off a cliff because they couldn't see it.  They needed to learn to see by the experience of trial and error.  So when you see kittens leaping and falling and rolling and twisting and doing all manner of silly looking things, know that they are learning to see.

I posted on a big stock board for a long time.   I was worshipped there because I was always right, and being right meant making money to those people.  My posts were getting 10,000 hits a year.  God was showing me things others couldn't see.  He wanted me there to warn them.  I was a god to them, people I will never meet, yet, I couldn't warn my own family and friends.  "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

Now God has me in this little backwater place of cyberspace where one would think I would be among my own, yet I am ridiculed, insulted, ignored, and rejected on a constant basis.  Mind you, the lovely thing about cyberspace, is you can just click it off and go somewhere else.  But, I don't.  God is teaching me so much here.  

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.  It was Christians who invented the Inquisition.  Yes, like the kittens, we make a lot of mistakes, but because we are human,  some of them are downright horrifying.

But, when that strong will is used in God's service, there is no greater force on the face of the earth for good.

He wants us to wrestle with the angel.  And, He made us that way for a reason.  Because most of all, He wants relationship with us and to be our light, the only light we desire, the only light we follow, and to want that with every fiber of our being, of our own free will.


24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

     But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
     "Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,  because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

---Gen 32




"Israel"

H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.

[Zeek]

Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Paul 
  Can I speak from experience here ? I was just as your Friend  mate ...
   your Friend  whom the time has not come yet , to be delivered from his own [sin, error] it takes time for  the fleshly lusts  to become  so bad and  he becomes so EMPTY   , filling them desires only leaves you wanting and needing more and more to the point of where  you want to be DEAD  , 
you see when death  becomes your desire over constant sinning and knowing your  lost and empty  ,  and you are just so sick of  what life has become to you  , you are like a dog chasing its tail , the  circle /cycle 
  becomes so meaningless  and literal death seems like an option   because you have been in a self destrucive  mode of thinking for such a long time , you do contemplate your options  ,  God sounds good to you  finally after digging a hole so deep you cannot get out of it , you are trapped and you know it ... the sting of death has hurt everything around you for so long a time   because you are in a state of mourning and loss of what to do , you have heard of God but DO NOT KNOW HIM ,, and doubt you can be saved  , we all have felt worthless  from time to time  , no matter what  we try to do to get relief /peace , rest even
our Hope is in God  and we dont even know that at the time .. 
wishing you friend wellness and peace and the seal of God in his mind and heart ..........


Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

God is a strange taskmaster. Yes, he directs our paths, Yes, he gives us orders and commands, Yes, he turns evil into good when we mess up or sends his angels to lift us up when we are surrounded by the enemy.  But, what does he want from us?  What does he expect?    That's at the bottom of the question of whether or not we have free will.  

For me, He wants relationship with us.  He wants to be able to put us where He needs us and have us do what He needs us to do.   We are to be his right arm, the right arm of God. But, we can't do any of that if we do not have relationship with Him.

To that end, He allows us to learn like any child learns, by trial and error, and by experience and real world evidence. So that we will love Him from the bottom of our hearts.  So that we will trust Him when he shows us something.  So that we will continue to trust Him, no matter how bad things look.

Does a kitten have free will?  The scientists (what spirit are they?) did an experiment where they put kittens in a gondola from birth.  They were carried everywhere they went, and not allowed to walk.  The kittens ended up functionally blind.  As adults, they would walk right off a cliff because they couldn't see it.  They needed to learn to see by the experience of trial and error.  So when you see kittens leaping and falling and rolling and twisting and doing all manner of silly looking things, know that they are learning to see.

I posted on a big stock board for a long time.   I was worshipped there because I was always right, and being right meant making money to those people.  My posts were getting 10,000 hits a year.  God was showing me things others couldn't see.  He wanted me there to warn them.  I was a god to them, people I will never meet, yet, I couldn't warn my own family and friends.  "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

Now God has me in this little backwater place of cyberspace where one would think I would be among my own, yet I am ridiculed, insulted, ignored, and rejected on a constant basis.  Mind you, the lovely thing about cyberspace, is you can just click it off and go somewhere else.  But, I don't.  God is teaching me so much here.  

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.  It was Christians who invented the Inquisition.  Yes, like the kittens, we make a lot of mistakes, but because we are human,  some of them are downright horrifying.

But, when that strong will is used in God's service, there is no greater force on the face of the earth for good.

He wants us to wrestle with the angel.  And, He made us that way for a reason.  Because most of all, He wants relationship with us and to be our light, the only light we desire, the only light we follow, and to want that with every fiber of our being, of our own free will.


24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

     But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
     "Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,  because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

---Gen 32




"Israel"

H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.

For God to want and to desire, and to expect,

is to me to project our limited views onto God who is everything, and to project human traits onto LOVE.   

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig...  :cloud9:

I mean no disrespects to you bro... but again firmly disagree with your viewpoint as follows... you are welcome to maintain your stand...  :happygrin:

As any rational and reasonable person will note, when you have two wills, the stronger of the two will always win. This does not destroy freedom of will.  So so far, nobody in the anti-free-will position has made their case as pointed out by many here.

This is just your opinion (viewpoint)... nothing more...  :dontknow:  Your opinion is that nobody here has made a case against "free will"... and you are welcome to it... :yes:

I believe that a case has been made, you just do not acknowledge that case...

So all I see is a bunch of people who pretend to know what they are talking about but have no actual facts or reason to support it, if a person has a will, there is freedom of will. Without freedom, there is no will.

No one is "pretending" here brother... we all must consider the possibility that our viewpoint is either flawed or incomplete... including you.

This again, is YOUR observation, and you are welcome to it... however, YOUR observation is just that... and FACTS have been presented to support it, ...you just refuse to acknowledge those FACTUAL presentations...  :dontknow:

This is going to defeat every anti-freewill reason in this thread.

:mnah:  I beg to differ with you, and believe that the below quoted Scriptures also disagree with this "freewill" view of your quoted verse:

2 Timothy 2:26
That they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Do the will of the devil? Hrm....? Well it appears that God's will is not always done in this journey and we, ambassadors of God on earth, are held responsible to bring people back to their senses and stop doing the will of the devil and to do the will of God. This conflict is impossible without the possibility of the freedom of will to pursue them

Just as you admit... "it appears... that GOD's WILL is not always done in this journey"...

I shall quote verses which shows that GOD's WILL is NEVER deleted by finite MEN... and that FINITE MEN are DRIVEN into CAPTIVITY... BY GOD (not a mythical "devil")... without any prior "consent", obtained by GOD, from them...

First let me quote the KJV's version of this verse:

2 Tim 2:26  ...and that they may RECOVER themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will...

To begin with, one is either...

(1)  observing "the devil" as a being or individual entity which "has a will"... and that that "devil" is the one bringing the individual INTO "his" captivity... (translators insert words such as "him" to emphasize and clarify), ...OR,

(2)  that the "devil" is the NATURAL ADVERSITY which is created within the FLESH of MEN, which brings forth TEMPTATION (James 1:14), which results in SIN, and eventually DEATH...  ALL processes which are DONE by and PURPOSED of GOD...

Scripture notes that "CAPTIVITY" is arranged by GOD...

Rom 8:20-21 ...because the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY, ...not WILLINGLY but by REASON of HIM [PURPOSE of GOD] who hath subjected in hope... because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the BONDAGE of corruption [Natural "will" of the flesh] into the GLORIOUS liberty [FREEDOM] of the Children of GOD.

This verse shows that the CREATION of GOD, was subjected to its CAPTIVITY, ...BY GOD, and WITHOUT their consent...

Jer 29:14 ...and I will be found of you, saith YHVH, and ...I WILL... turn YOU away from your CAPTIVITY, and I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places whither, ...I HAVE DRIVEN YOU, saith YHVH; and ...I WILL BRING YOU AGAIN ["recover" in your verse above] into the place whence ...I CAUSED YOU, ...to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE.

GOD is herein indicated as the orchestrator of this whole thing... and therefore gets ALL GLORY for the VICTORIOUS result of that orchestration...

Jer 18:4 ...And the VESSEL that He made of CLAY, was MARRED ...in the HAND... of the POTTER; ...so He made it again ANOTHER VESSEL, as it seemed GOOD to the POTTER to MAKE IT...  The POTTER is doing the MARRING of the first vessel (BAD), and then REMAKING it into SOMETHING GOOD... 

GOD is shown here, ...the "doer" of both the MARRING, and the REMAKING processes... :yes:

Rom 11:32  ...for GOD hath CONCLUDED [without their consent/"will"] them ALL in UNBELIEF, that He might have MERCY upon ALL

It is the decision of GOD that we DO NOT BELIEVE... WHATSOEVER is not of FAITH is SIN (Rom 14:23) ... so it is GOD which has decided us as SINNERS, by concluding ALL in our UNBELIEF to be SINNERS...

Rom 9:21 ...hath not the POTTER -- POWER OVER the CLAY, of the same lump, to MAKE one VESSEL unto honor [spirit/MADE in HONOR/OBEDIENT], and ANOTHER unto DISHONOR? [flesh/MADE in DISHONOR/DISOBEDIENT]

Here, ...GOD is MAKING ...BOTH... VESSELS as they ARE... either OBEDIENT unto HONOR, or DISOBEDIENT unto DISHONOR...

The WILL of the FLESH which is man's NATURAL or FLESHLY "will"... is IN BONDAGE to that FLESH (itself), and NOT SUBJECT to the LAW of GOD... (Rom 7:7-21)

The WILL of the SPIRIT which is man's SPIRITUAL WILL (as CHRIST displayed) is found in alignment with YHVH is FREE... and STANDS upon the foundation of the LAW of GOD... (Rom 7:22-25)

John 8:32 ...and ye shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall MAKE YOU FREE...

What does the TRUTH "make" us FREE from?   :Chinscratch:

The FLESHLY "will" of the NATURAL man, which the TRUTH removes from the individual as that individual submits to the TRUTH (by being DRAWN to it, ...BY GOD)...

John 6:44 ...NO man CAN come unto Me [JESUS--the way the TRUTH & the life]... except the FATHER which hath sent Me, ...DRAW him...

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

[rosered]

   Molly wrote;

God is a strange taskmaster. Yes, he directs our paths, Yes, he gives us orders and commands, Yes, he turns evil into good when we mess up or sends his angels to lift us up when we are surrounded by the enemy.  But, what does he want from us?  What does he expect?    That's at the bottom of the question of whether or not we have free will.   

For me, He wants relationship with us.  He wants to be able to put us where He needs us and have us do what He needs us to do.   We are to be his right arm, the right arm of God. But, we can't do any of that if we do not have relationship with Him.

To that end, He allows us to learn like any child learns, by trial and error, and by experience and real world evidence. So that we will love Him from the bottom of our hearts.  So that we will trust Him when he shows us something.  So that we will continue to trust Him, no matter how bad things look.

Does a kitten have free will?  The scientists (what spirit are they?) did an experiment where they put kittens in a gondola from birth.  They were carried everywhere they went, and not allowed to walk.  The kittens ended up functionally blind.  As adults, they would walk right off a cliff because they couldn't see it.  They needed to learn to see by the experience of trial and error.  So when you see kittens leaping and falling and rolling and twisting and doing all manner of silly looking things, know that they are learning to see.

I posted on a big stock board for a long time.   I was worshipped there because I was always right, and being right meant making money to those people.  My posts were getting 10,000 hits a year.  God was showing me things others couldn't see.  He wanted me there to warn them.  I was a god to them, people I will never meet, yet, I couldn't warn my own family and friends.  "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

Now God has me in this little backwater place of cyberspace where one would think I would be among my own, yet I am ridiculed, insulted, ignored, and rejected on a constant basis.  Mind you, the lovely thing about cyberspace, is you can just click it off and go somewhere else.  But, I don't.  God is teaching me so much here. 

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.  It was Christians who invented the Inquisition.  Yes, like the kittens, we make a lot of mistakes, but because we are human,  some of them are downright horrifying.

But, when that strong will is used in God's service, there is no greater force on the face of the earth for good.

He wants us to wrestle with the angel.  And, He made us that way for a reason.  Because most of all, He wants relationship with us and to be our light, the only light we desire, the only light we follow, and to want that with every fiber of our being, of our own free will.


24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

      But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
      "Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,  because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

---Gen 32




"Israel"

H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.

Molly  that was amazing about the kittens sis , I had no Idea  :mshock:

I do believe  some have to know the lowest possible place /depths of hell to appreciate  Gods help and love and develope the Trust it takes to have a relationship with Him   everything and everyone fails but Jesus Christ and His Spirit working within  you makes all the difference , to God be the Glory forever   God love ya sis ... rose

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  :happygrin:

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.

:mock: :laugh: :pointlaugh:

:Yeahright:  Or, ...they will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove there IS free will!   :pointlaugh:

peacE...
willieH    :angel5:

[martincisneros]

I believe the two sides here are simply arguing from two different levels of ontological abstraction.

There is no 'correct' answer because, depending on the layer of philosophical strata you happen to be peering into, they are both true.

Part of being human is the illusion that we are autonomous creatures, freely strolling down the road of life. The real answers cannot come from quoting verses of scripture but only from understanding that there is a reason (that is, a cause) for every decision made.

Exactly.  But at the same time, God does absolutely nothing without seed.  The problem has been with not knowing what the seed was that God was bringing to harvest or when it was sown.  Some of the predeterminist crowd would probably look at certain things and think "There wasn't any seed to that.  God just did it!"  But that's wrong.  God does nothing without His Word, His Faith, His Blood, and His Anointing.  There's all kinds of seeds that have been sown over the last couple thousand years that in God's Sovereignty haven't come fully up yet.  But I assure you, without the free willed sacrifices of many a saint along the way, God wouldn't be doing most of what He's been doing. One plants, one waters, and God sends the harvest.  And when it comes to the planting and watering, as some have observed, some were sent and some just went.  I know of many ministers that began their ministry with either a Vision of Jesus, a Vision of an Angel, a Supernatural Voice that spoke to them, or some other spectacular prophetic Word that made their calling and election sure.  I know of others that it was just a growing desire of their heart from the abundance of the revelations that they were getting of the Gospel and how the Word was transforming their lives, until they just went and did some things.  And because they weren't "sent" they had a few more bruises and war stories to share of how they believed their way through this or that.  In situations like that, you just never know!!  Are they a descendant of someone many of us look up to?  Did that certain Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher, and/or Mystic dedicate their family to the service of God forever so that 20 generations later, although the geneologies had long been lost connecting them to family members that far back, was it that act of dedication that virtually became a haunting experience in that person's life -- whether God was directly intervening or not?  Yeah, God could have been calling in the vow.  Or things might have just been taking their natural course because they were a family dedicated to God long ago.  God gives the harvest.  God also directs some of the planting and watering, but not all of it.  People have emotions, ambitions, and yearnings for God's glory even when their knowledge of His Kingdom plan for sowing and reap His way into all of mankind being drawn to Himself is obscured from their understanding with either religious tradition or no knowledge or tradition whatsoever.

To that end, He allows us to learn like any child learns, by trial and error, and by experience and real world evidence. So that we will love Him from the bottom of our hearts.  So that we will trust Him when he shows us something.  So that we will continue to trust Him, no matter how bad things look.

Does a kitten have free will?  The scientists (what spirit are they?) did an experiment where they put kittens in a gondola from birth.  They were carried everywhere they went, and not allowed to walk.  The kittens ended up functionally blind.  As adults, they would walk right off a cliff because they couldn't see it.  They needed to learn to see by the experience of trial and error.  So when you see kittens leaping and falling and rolling and twisting and doing all manner of silly looking things, know that they are learning to see...

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.  It was Christians who invented the Inquisition.  Yes, like the kittens, we make a lot of mistakes, but because we are human,  some of them are downright horrifying.

But, when that strong will is used in God's service, there is no greater force on the face of the earth for good.

:goodpost: , Molly.  Though some Christians will cut off their nose to spite their face, God didn't at all times direct such a mutilation to take place!  Your kitten analogy may have actually perfectly explained why there is any demension of free will whatsoever.  I know that I've done enough :BangHead: to last me the rest of eternity.  I've had more than my fair share of :spank: because of things that I've wandered into that my vision at the time told me was THE thing to do.  But hindsight is 20/10 about not ever doing anything approximating those things ever again.  Had I been sheltered from making those free will decisions, then I'd of never known to reject that evil and to cling wholeheartedly to the good.  My cat's nearly 5 years old, yet he still gets into enough nonsense to where I've wondered if he was an experiment in artificial stupidity sometimes.  Yet in too many ways he's been the perfect allegory for my life. :Sparkletooth:

[Molly]

For God to want and to desire, and to expect,

is to me to project our limited views onto God who is everything, and to project human traits onto LOVE.

And, why not?  We're made in his image, aren't we?   And, how do we feel about the object of our love?  Don't we want to be loved back?  Don't we want the best for them?  Don't we want to help them? Don't we want a close and satisfying relationship with them?





14Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

15And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

16And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi [My Husband]; and shalt call me no more Baali [My Master].

--Hosea 2



Exodus 33:11
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

[martincisneros]

Ya know, I've thought long and hard in the past, particularly in my preteens, about finding a trophy wife :first: with absolutely no free will of her own :Evilgrin:  And my opinion's the same as it was those eons ago.  That would actually be really fun for a few weeks :happytired:  But then it would become soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring :faint: :grave:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi willie,

What you say about God creating everything is not really at issue.  Sure , it is an aspect of the overall picture, but that in and of itself does not dictate that our will never has freedom  within the boundries God supplies for us.

There are verses in the bible that have no relevance to your point of view.

1C 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].



According to how you have explained your point of view, my friend has no use for this verse at all, it is completely meaningless if what you say is true.

My friend does not need a way of escape as he is accepting that his drug use and the corruption that it has brought his life is all designed and meant to be. 

The day that my friend either quits using drugs,  kills his wife, or dies because of it will be because there was no escape necessary because there was nothing to escape from.  If he was meant to not do it, he won't do it, if he feels like doing it, he's gonna do it because there is no reason not to, since when he goes and does it, God wanted him too, because after all,  he did go and do it.

[pneuma]

Question Willie.

When the son of sam said God told him to kill all those people, did you or do you beleive him?

You know bro, I have seen so many of Gods people blame God for everything and others who blame satan for everything and there is not enough of God people who will shoulder the load and take responsibility for their own sins.

Adam tried passing the buck first to God then to Eve and Eve to the serpent, but God would have none of that and judged EACH according to what THEY had done AGAINST HIS WILL.

If everything is according to His will bro then there is absulutly no such thing as disobedience.

[jabcat]

Not a 100% full understanding yet, but I see it more as a mixture of the "two sides".  I believe we have a limited will, geared more toward our growth/maturity.  I currently understand it as us having the ability and requirement to choose within parameters God allows, wherein we sometimes choose right, but sometimes choose wrong and fall, and need His help getting up...thereby learning to trust Him.  Sometimes He allows us to reach the end of ourselves, and that's where we find Him.  There's nothing beyond the scope of His control.  God's blessing, James.

[firstborn888]

Hi willie,

What you say about God creating everything is not really at issue.  Sure , it is an aspect of the overall picture,

(my emphasis)

These are the aspects mentioned in my previous post. We are not built to believe or see or sense that we are controlled and every move is destined but looking from another angle, all the causes are there and were not created by us. This is a philosophical viewpoint issue and not a scripture battle as, again - BOTH viewpoints are contained in scripture.

I believe the two sides here are simply arguing from two different levels of ontological abstraction.

There is no 'correct' answer because, depending on the layer of philosophical strata you happen to be peering into, they are both true.

Part of being human is the illusion that we are autonomous creatures, freely strolling down the road of life. The real answers cannot come from quoting verses of scripture but only from understanding that there is a reason (that is, a cause) for every decision made.

AISI

Since this debate has raged from the old tentmaker to the new tentmaker (by some of the same folks) and now beyond I would suggest we each consider the others viewpoints instead of just digging in dogmatically into our separate views.

Obviously Paul H's friend can't sit there thinking God is making him do terrible things to himself and his family. Those who are at a place where you can see and accept absolute sovereignty should not be trying to force this dogmatic literal view of it as it is a PHILOSOPHICAL viewpoint that all are not meant or able to see or even NEED to see. In fact, I believe a literal acceptance of A.S. doctrine can be harmful as Paul H. has laid out concerning his friend.

I would like to see this wind down into a few succinct points and then be locked for future reference for those seeking info on both views since it is a bit off topic for tentmaker's UR focus.  :boyheart:

- Byron

[martincisneros]

Since this debate has raged from the old tentmaker to the new tentmaker (by some of the same folks) and now beyond I would suggest we each consider the others viewpoints instead of just digging in dogmatically into our separate views.

I would like to see this wind down into a few succinct points and then be locked for future reference for those seeking info on both views since it is a bit off topic for tentmaker's UR focus.  :boyheart:

- Byron

I agree.  I've been praying about the cutting off point on this, particularly since the one that started this thread hasn't been back in the 8 days since this thread got started.  Or if he has been back, then this ongoing thread has been neither here nor there to his purposes in reading everything else.  I do applaud ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE who has participated in this hot topic for not having at any point gotten over heated since this is one of those issues that cuts to the core of the understanding of UR for everyone that's participated on this thread -- which ever perspective you've had.

[Molly]

We are not built to believe or see or sense that we are controlled and every move is destined but looking from another angle, all the causes are there and were not created by us.

And, yet, my mind is able technically to see those causes, and not be controlled by them. That is the mind of Christ.  Christ releases us from cause and effect.  That's the whole point.




43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

--Mat 5

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PaulH... :hithere:

Hi willie,

What you say about God creating everything is not really at issue.  Sure , it is an aspect of the overall picture, but that in and of itself does not dictate that our will never has freedom  within the boundries God supplies for us.

We DO choose... but those choices are according and in line with the Declaration of GOD, which noted the End from the Beginning...  Along with that, the Bible has many verses which attest to the WILL of GOD including things which appear as ADVERSITY...

Such as the Apostle Paul's notation of Pharaoh in Rom 9... noting that GOD raised Pharaoh up to GLORIFY Him in all the World...  :dontknow:

Pharaoh did NOTHING in the ways most would identify GLORIFYING of GOD... but his position which was HELPLESS before the DELIVERANCE of GOD, and was NECESSARY to note from that postion and DEGREE of ADVERSITY,  ...the GREATNESS and MIRACULOUSNESS of that DELIVERANCE of the people of GOD...

There are verses in the bible that have no relevance to your point of view.

1C 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

That is your viewpoint, and you are welcome to it... however, the RELEVANCE is there in that GOD shall deliver us from EVERYTHING in the end Paul...  NOTHING, to include  temptation is great enough to SEPARATE us from the LOVE of GOD which is in CHRIST JESUS...

The verse states that a way of escape will be made, that one might be able to ENDURE or BEAR the temptation...  This verse can mean that the temptation will temporarily be victorious in your circumstances, but that a way of escape will be made...

If EVERY temptation were completely avoided, there would be no SINNERS, brother  PaulH... but John notes that even the faithful shall be self decieving to esteem themselves not sinners: 

1 John 1:8 ...If we say we HAVE NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves, and the TRUTH is not in us...

Back to the case of Pharaoh... He was positioned BY GOD to be ADVERSE to the DELIVERANCE of the JEWS...  To the UNSPIRITUAL observer, they would see this as GOD fighting against Himself... which many an athiest can and DOES, claim... however, GOD's PURPOSE includes ADVERSITY, ...otherwise He would not have created EVIL in the first place...

That we cannot see every detail is that which separates the FINITE from the INFINITE...

I do not claim to know everything... but I do believe that GOD is WORKING ALL [not some] THINGS after the counsel of His OWN WILL [not ours], and choose NOT to argue against that statement (Eph 1:11)

According to how you have explained your point of view, my friend has no use for this verse at all, it is completely meaningless if what you say is true.

My friend does not need a way of escape as he is accepting that his drug use and the corruption that it has brought his life is all designed and meant to be.

You sit in a position of observation of me, which is quite unknowledgeable bro... I counseled "drug users"... and have had and still have some within my own FAMILY... So please dont assume that I am ALOOF to the plight in which your friend is immersed...

There are reasons for the situations each NEGATIVITY presents... one is that WITNESS and TESTIMONY are born of them... One who has been delivered from DRUGS has a very meaningful and helpful TESTIMONY to give others trapped in this scenario...

If one have never done drugs and been under their addiction, then one has no testimony to offer those trapped in such a scenario...

That your friend is UNDELIVERED at the moment, does not mean that his day is not STILL to come! 

And that he presently sees no need for a "way of escape"... does not mean that that "way" shall find its way into being NEEDFUL to him one day...

The day that my friend either quits using drugs,  kills his wife, or dies because of it will be because there was no escape necessary because there was nothing to escape from.  If he was meant to not do it, he won't do it, if he feels like doing it, he's gonna do it because there is no reason not to, since when he goes and does it, God wanted him too, because after all,  he did go and do it.

This is taking a human view of the PURPOSE of GOD, and deducing it accordingly.  GOD states that HE is ordering our steps... that HE is hardening and softening... that HE is working ALL things together...

Each DEATH is decided by GOD, and has its PURPOSE within the ETERNAL WISDOM of GOD... that You or I cannot see the reasons which note... WHY this or that person DIED as he did, ...or WHEN he did, ...or HOW he did, ...is NOT for us to KNOW...

Don't know if you remember Keith Green... a terrific SPIRITUALLY-ON FIRE -- songwriter/singer... with a completely UNSELFISH ministry, in the midst of his youth... yet -- boom, out of nowhere , he dies in a plane crash!  WHY? 

He was doing GOD's work better than ANYONE in his field!  Well... an incredible TESTIMONY was established by that man's death... even though at the time, ...from a finite, ...even SPIRITUAL observation point, ...it seemed to make no sense at all...  :omg:

Each of our deaths are predetermined bro... I cannot avoid the death I am to die... neither can you... CHRIST is our BEGINNING and our END...

Concerning ADDICTION:

The fact remains that GOD invented that which is ADDICTIVE to the human being... as well as the ability OF humans to become ADDICTED to those things... 

Your compassion is understandable, I have it myself... and testify that I have worked with folks in my personal AND work life which are immersed in drugs... but that you or I are compassionate and concerned for those bearing these tragic circumstances, does not remove GOD's involvement IN THEM...

Nor that HE decided that a given thing would be ADDICTIVE, and that some HUMANS would find themselves struggling under these ADDICTIVE elements...

GOD brought forth your friend, Paul... KNOWING that he would become an ADDICT, did He not?  LONG before he was born, let alone, become a victim of the drug...  yet GOD brought him forth nevertheless... How can you therefore, separate GOD from your friend's ADDICTION?

As I said... much wonderful TESTIMONY is often born of DELIVERANCE from drugs...

And even though TEMPORAL DEATH takes ALL by one method or another... in the final result, they ALL shall just MAGNIFY the RESURRECTION of CHRIST, and His ability to REDEEM from that death...

That MURDER or DRUGS or CANCER or HEART DISEASE or NUCLEAR WEAPONS, ...exist as potential candidates that might take our lives from us, does not remove GOD from their existence... Nor that He has no part or involvement in these and other methods of DEATH, variously finding us and separating us from LIFE...

GOD decided the different things which would take LIFE from a human being Paul... drugs is but one of many methodical entities which shall send this sinner or that, back to the dust of the earth...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH    :angel5:

[martincisneros]

Beautiful post, WillieH.  I think you finally said what you were trying to say on this thread.

[martincisneros]

Hi Martin,

No Freewill/Freewill

Here is my post which I was about to send before you decided to stopped the thread on this subject.

To understand properly FREEWILL or NO FREEWILL, we need to keep a clear distinction between how our human will operates in matters of everyday living, and in the matter of salvation. Failure to keep this distinction clear in our mind is the main reason for so much confusion and misunderstanding on this subject.

It will greatly help if we think of human will as human capability.

In the matters of everyday living, my human will (capability) is free to do many things within the limits of my capabilities. I am free to choose either tea or coffee etc, etc etc.   Therefore, in matters of everyday living, it is abundantly clear that I do have FREEWILL, even though my will is limited. For example, I am not free to fly like a bird, but I am free to walk or run. I am free to do good deeds or bad deeds, knowing full well that both my good deeds and my bad deeds have consequences.  I have limited freewill.

Remove the concept of freewill in connection with everyday living, and we create a HUGE problem in understanding many aspects of life including the understanding of God's love and His judgements. Without freewill, our relationship with God becomes meaningless and we are really reduced to mere automatons.

In the matter of salvation, my human will (capability) is not free to choose salvation. We are incapable of choosing our own salvation. Our salvation is 100% the work of God from start to finish. Every aspect of our salvation is a gift from God. We don't choose God, but God chooses us to save us in His own time and His order.  When God chooses us, He enables, and empowers us to bring our will freely in line with His will. "Not my will, but Yours, be done." We do not have FREEWILL (capability) to choose our salvation, until and unless God supernaturally opens our eyes from blindness to His light and gives us the capability to choose His salvation.  Universalism is not a forced salvation, and God never forces His salvation on us. All the glory goes to God when God empowers us to freely choose His salvation.

Jesus Christ had limited freewill in matters of everyday living and He had God empowered unlimited freewill in the matter of salvation, not for His salvation, but for the salvation of the whole world.  We have limited freewill in matters of everyday living, but we have no freewill in the matter of our salvation, until and unless God makes our will free to choose His salvation.

The whole of NO FREEWILL theology is an over reaction to disprove Arminianism. Arminianianism is wrong, not because it believes in freewill, but because it promotes and exalts man's will above God's sovereign will in salvation. 

Blessings