Tentmaker Forum

Let me first say I don't believe in either. That said, I'm now searching for a church where I am not constantly hearing about either. Is there a church or denomination that generally speaking believes in God's control and reformative judgement of man?

I believe God causes everything in this world to happen, and He has given me great peace in this world through that faith. I also believe He is working all things for His plan, even the wicked. So I am trying to find a place that I can worship with my kids and wife without being sucked into a cult. Is there a mainstream denomination that I could attend and share my beliefs with?

That's kind of a tall order because those doctrines automatically exclude you from the mainstream.

I know that in the united methodist church the pastors are given a lot of lee-way for their interpretations. Find the right pastor and you've found the right church.

Hello Paul,

Welcome to Tentmaker.

When you say you don't believe in free-will are you saying, are you talking about self-determination concerning the end? Then I agree, there is no such thing as self-determination, God has pre-destined all men to Himself, and those who sinned against them shall be ashamed but reconciled.

Take this to heart and consider it... If that is not what you were saying and you don't believe in free-will, then who cares what you think, we have no choice in the matter anyways, who cares what you believe there is no surety of it's truth if that is how you were designed to believe it. Why are you even here? Did you choose to be here? How does being scripted to be here have any relevance to why you should be here, it matters not since you believe what ever you were scripted, do whatever you were scripted because you had no freedom of will to even choose to be here in the first place, let alone choose what you want to believe. You won't find much sympathy from myself if you think you were scripted in some cosmic play to do what you did, and so had no choice in the matter. That is selfishness, and denial; the need to avoid such feeling of responsibility and accountability that sometimes involve regret and guilt of wrong decisions. There is something that we can do concerning those feelings, and that is repentance and forgiveness even of our dumb wrong decisions. Free-will is a reality, self-determination is a fantasy.

Free-will and self-determination may seem synchronistic but they are completely two different things. Semantically, when it comes to the things outside our control, we have no free-will. However, with the things present in our life, the reason you are alive, is to make choices and decisions. We still reap what we sow, but there is no such thing as a perpetual hell which we must endure if we choose to pursue corruption.

If the latter is what you meant, there are a few churches who believe it. But they are sparce and you need to move to that city to attend their services.

If you took offense to my ramblings about free-will, get over it, especially if you don't believe in we have it since God scripted me to say it to you anyways. *wink*

God's Sovereign Will versus man's Freewill

There is a lot of confusion in universalist circles about whether or not man is created with freewill. Some Universalists strongly argue that men and angels are not created with freewill.

This problem is easily resolved once we accept the truth of the Bible that God created man in His own image, according to His likeness. (Genesis 1:26) We all know that God has a will, and since God created man in His own image, God created man with a will. A will by definition is free. It is a contradiction in terms to say that man has a will and at the same time deny that it is free.

The problem comes when some people think that in order for man's will to be truly free, it must have the same unlimited freedom as God's will. This is ridiculous and nonsensical. God's will is sovereign, and though our will is very limited compared to God's will, man's will is nonetheless free. A limited freedom is still freedom. The truth that God is all-knowing and that He knows in advance what choices we make, does not take away from the freedom of our will to make choices. Simply because a father knows in advance that his child will choose chocolate instead of fruit, does not take away from the child's freedom to choose chocolate, whether the father grants the child's wish to have chocolate or not. The understanding of how man's freewill operates under God's sovereign will is often a hard concept for people to grasp.

Let us re-emphasise that God has created us in His own image, and that He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot can be programmed to make choices, but it does not have a will and it cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, God cannot hold men accountable for their sins, and God's judgements would not have any meaning. Without freewill, repentance does not make sense, and salvation loses its meaning. All of the attributes that God wants us to have like love, forgiveness and mercy become meaningless, without freewill. The Bible says that we shall be partakers of the divine nature and that we shall become children of God in His likeness. This would be impossible if God had not created us with freewill.

Arminianism is wrong not because it believes in man's freewill, but because it exalts and empowers man's limited fallen freewill above God's sovereign will in salvation. You may wish to see Chapter 18 of our free online book, www.GodsPlanForAll.com for further information on Arminianism, Calvinism and Universalism.

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PM
God's Sovereign Will versus man's Freewill

There is a lot of confusion in universalist circles about whether or not man is created with freewill. Some Universalists strongly argue that men and angels are not created with freewill.

This problem is easily resolved once we accept the truth of the Bible that God created man in His own image, according to His likeness. (Genesis 1:26) We all know that God has a will, and since God created man in His own image, God created man with a will. A will by definition is free. It is a contradiction in terms to say that man has a will and at the same time deny that it is free.

The problem comes when some people think that in order for man's will to be truly free, it must have the same unlimited freedom as God's will. This is ridiculous and nonsensical. God's will is sovereign, and though our will is very limited compared to God's will, man's will is nonetheless free. A limited freedom is still freedom. The truth that God is all-knowing and that He knows in advance what choices we make, does not take away from the freedom of our will to make choices. Simply because a father knows in advance that his child will choose chocolate instead of fruit, does not take away from the child's freedom to choose chocolate, whether the father grants the child's wish to have chocolate or not. The understanding of how man's freewill operates under God's sovereign will is often a hard concept for people to grasp.

Let us re-emphasise that God has created us in His own image, and that He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot can be programmed to make choices, but it does not have a will and it cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, God cannot hold men accountable for their sins, and God's judgements would not have any meaning. Without freewill, repentance does not make sense, and salvation loses its meaning. All of the attributes that God wants us to have like love, forgiveness and mercy become meaningless, without freewill. The Bible says that we shall be partakers of the divine nature and that we shall become children of God in His likeness. This would be impossible if God had not created us with freewill.

Arminianism is wrong not because it believes in man's freewill, but because it exalts and empowers man's limited fallen freewill above God's sovereign will in salvation. You may wish to see Chapter 18 of our free online book, www.GodsPlanForAll.com for further information on Arminianism, Calvinism and Universalism.

Hi David I agree on most of your post, except were you say we are made in the image of God.
The only man who was ever in the image of God was Jesus Christ and Paul in 1Co.15 makes a big distinction between the first man Adam and Jesus Christ, stating that we as of right now bare the image of the earth earthy, but that we SHALL bare the image of the heavenly.

Is it not obvious then that it is the image of the heavenly that is the image of god? And that man does not yet bare this image.

We are to be changed brother and if we right now bare the image of God what image are we then to bare?

Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ and only deals with Adam as he is found in Christ.

God bless

Hi pneuma,

It is good to know that we agree on the matter that God has created us with Freewill.

With respect to Genesis 1:26-27, I prefer to take the Bible at its face value. The verses clearly says that God has created us in His own image. Nobody is saying that we are 100% like God. However, we are still made in the image of God as we can have relationship with God and understand the attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.

Yes, of course, we shall bear the image of the heavenly at the resurrection. But this does not take away from the truth of the Bible that we are now the children of God even in our earthly form. ( 1 John 3:2-3)

oh Dear, the free will thread comes around once more....

David,..anything which IS limited is NOT FREE, tis an oxymoron brother, not that I care, but for sure some smart a--e is going to pick ya Up on it...

saying that..nothing more to say on the subject. :icon_flower:

welcome to Tent :icon_flower:

Hi Taffy,

Thank you for your welcome.

A will by definition is free even if it is limited.  It is an oxymoron to say that man has a will and at the same time deny its freedom.  Limited freedom is still freedom but within boundaries. The fact that I am limited and cannot fly freely like a bird does not take away form my God given freedom to walk, run and choose to do many other things within my capabilities.

:bigGrin:

willieH: Hi David... :hithere:  and WELCOME!   :welcome:

Many others here will disagree (and have already done so) with what I am about to say (to include yourself)... but say it I will, regardless!  :dontknow:

And please... this answer is not an attempt to change your mind... I am simply giving you a different perspective than the one you presently have...

You are more than welcome to disagree with this answer... No prob!  :cloud9:

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PM
God's Sovereign Will versus man's Freewill

"Man's FREE WILL" is NOT named or discussed in the Bible David... this idea is the creation of MAN.  If man's "will" were free, why is it not SPECIFICALLY named so in the WORD?

The 1st red flag of false doctrine (as I see it), is its lack of presence as a teaching in the WORD of YHVH...

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PMThere is a lot of confusion in universalist circles about whether or not man is created with freewill. Some Universalists strongly argue that men and angels are not created with freewill.

This problem is easily resolved once we accept the truth of the Bible that God created man in His own image, according to His likeness. (Genesis 1:26) We all know that God has a will, and since God created man in His own image, God created man with a will. A will by definition is free. It is a contradiction in terms  to say that man has a will and at the same time deny that it is free.

This is a topic which has been beaten to death here at TM bro... but to say that the WILL of man is FREE [IMO] is to disassociate yourself from the picture presented in the WORD and mission of CHRIST...

To say that GOD is SOVEREIGN (in COMPLETE control of all things), and then say MAN is acting a "WILL" which is OUTSIDE that SOVEREIGNTY, is to me the "CONTRADICTION in terms"...  :dontknow:

To address your words above:  "a will by definition is free"... to me is completely off-base...

If this were so, ...it would mean that the acts of a PSOCIOPATH are done by a WILL which is FREE...  I hardly see that to be a definition of FREEDOM...

On the contrary, the PSOCIOPATH is COMPLETELY IN BONDAGE to his need to KILL... Though he "FREELY" engages that MISBEHAVIORAL need... does not mean that HIS "WILL" is FREE... His actions are OUT of BEHAVIORAL control... and are found to be under the BONDAGE of His Mentally deranged, OBSESSION...

A DRUNK is not acting with a WILL which is FREE... he is acting upon the BONDAGE in which he is IMMERSED...

CHRIST taught (as did His Disciples) that we must DISASSOCIATE ourselves from our "will"... by His example He noted:  "nevertheless NOT "My WILL" but THINE be done... If the will of ANY MAN to include CHRIST is exercised, then the WILL of GOD is NOT... which is WHY CHRIST spoke as He did...

Even concerning the "manner of prayer" He included:  "Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name, ...THY WILL BE DONE... IN EARTH as it IS in Heaven"...

He was teaching that we are to ABANDON our WILL which actually is IN BONDAGE, giving way to the WILL of GOD which CREATES FREEDOM... (John 8:32)

The WILL of GOD is found within HIS WORD... and it is HIS WORD which transforms the hearer, from the BONDAGE of his will which gravitates NATURALLY to SIN, and FREE'S it from that natural state, by submitting and putting to DEATH ones own "WILL", and thereby submit by making place for the SPIRIT of GOD and His Direction, as the active WILL in your life and actions, which becomes by that submission... "your" WILL...

The BEGINNING of freedom is found in submitting what you percieve to be your "free will"... to the WILL of GOD in all areas of who and what you are... When this is done, FREEDOM is thereby incorporated...

This is not a "Once in a lifetime" enaction... it is something which, for Sinners... takes a LIFETIME... the POTTER is about "molding the clay" all LIFE LONG...

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PMThe problem comes when some people think that in order for man's will to be truly free, it must have the same unlimited freedom as God's will. This is ridiculous and nonsensical. God's will is sovereign, and though our will is very limited compared to God's will, man's will is nonetheless free. A limited freedom is still freedom.

This is to note those in a PRISON as actually, "FREE"...  :omg: 

That they have PHYSICAL freedom limited to the 4 walls of the prison, does not equate to them being FREE... GOD in His WORD equates us to be IN PRISON...  If we are IN PRISON... how can we name ourselves FREE?  I believe it is NONSENSICAL to name "limited [confined] freedom", as FREEDOM...

Thou shalt NOT KILL... where is FREEDOM here David?  Are you FREE to KILL?   Well, if you consider FREEDOM to disobey this command as FREEDOM... then yes you are FREE to KILL... But is it truly FREEDOM?  Of course it is NOT! 

The act of KILLING is hardly an act of a will which is "FREE", ...it is an act which is IN BONDAGE to SELFISH DISOBEDIENCE of the COMMAND that GOD gave TO NOT do so...  :nod:

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PMThe truth that God is all-knowing and that He knows in advance what choices we make, does not take away from the freedom of our will to make choices.

Again... I disagree... GOD cannot be IN CONTROL/SOVEREIGN over all things, and yet not be...  He DECLARED the END from the BEGINNING... we are following the DECLARATION of what HE said we would do...

What am I saying?  It SAYS in the WORD of GOD that CAIN slew ABEL...

The WORD of GOD is NOT finite... nor is it presented in the works of MEN...  MEN do according to the ETERNAL WORD of GOD which cannot EVER be CHANGED... 

That the WORD of God has been noted within the course of the HISTORY of man, does not CONFINE it to TIME nor MAN's experience... On the contrary... what IT SAYS... WILL HAPPEN... or DID HAPPEN...

The ENTIRE history of man was DECLARED by GOD before its BEGINNING... calling those things (the history of man in TIME), that were NOT, as if they WERE (Rom 4:17 / Is 46:10-11)

What most do not see, the BEGINNING and the END are WITHIN the same BEING (CHRIST - IS [not will be or was] the ALPHA and OMEGA, the BEGINNING, and the END - Rev 1:8)

Before CAIN and ABEL were even born, the ETERNAL WORD (yet to be noted in mans experience) stated that CAIN "slew" ABEL... and so, in the course of the (early) HISTORY of MAN, it occured...  Just AS IS STATED in the ETERNAL WORD of GOD...

If you cannot see this, you cannot...  But men do as GOD's WORD says they WILL... NOT as men's "WILL" (and actions) eventually via the History of MEN, ...dictate to the WORD of God... And subsequently GOD's WORD later reports these doings... Please!

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PMSimply because a father knows in advance that his child will choose chocolate instead of fruit, does not take away from the child's freedom to choose chocolate, whether the father grants the child's wish to have chocolate or not. The understanding of how man's freewill operates under God's sovereign will is often a hard concept for people to grasp.

Sorry brother, I see these nice examples as finite observances being compared to the ETERNAL...  The reason it is "hard to grasp", is that it (mans "free will") simply does not exist... :mnah:

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PMLet us re-emphasise that God has created us in His own image, and that He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot can be programmed to make choices, but it does not have a will and it cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, God cannot hold men accountable for their sins, and God's judgements would not have any meaning[/b].

Alas... The old "robot" arguement - eh?  :laughing7: 

God did not "create" men in His own image, He is ACTIVELY CREATING THEM in His own image... Until the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST in His FULLNESS is found in each, then NO MAN is found MADE (past tense) in His IMAGE... (Jer 10:23 / Jer 18:4)

It is a PROCESS David... Because you are a MAN does not mean the process is complete...  The process includes the JUDGMENT (Is 26:9)... for IN JUDGMENT, do men LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS...

GOD is not "holding men accountable for their sins" bro... (John 1:29 / 2 Cor 5:18-19)  

MEN give account in the EXPOSURE of their lifetimes... but JUDGMENT relieves them of that EXPOSURE... 

CHRIST noted that He is the "clothing" which keeps men from that "exposure"... but in the end, those which must be exposed in JUDGMENT, only drives them to Him... which is WHY every knee shall bow and tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is Lord... (Phil 2:10-11)

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PMWithout freewill, repentance does not make sense, and salvation loses its meaning. All of the attributes that God wants us to have like love, forgiveness and mercy become meaningless, without freewill. The Bible says that we shall be partakers of the divine nature and that we shall become children of God in His likeness. This would be impossible if God had not created us with freewill.

Sorry brother David, but NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD... NOTHING!  Not even that which YOU PROPOSE and deduce, ...with this arguement... (Matt 19:26 / Mark 10:27 / Luke 1:37)

This is obviously your perspective David... Mine is that without GOD's COMPLETE SOVEREIGNTY, salvation loses all its meaning... For it attempts to put that Salvation in our hands to decide... It also attempts to USURP from HIM, a portion of HIS POWER (by the "power" of the supposed "free will"), which is noted as TOTALLY and EXCLUSIVELY HIS:  (Rom 13:1)... and all THAT proceeds from the enactions of HIS POWER is ORDAINED of HIM...

WE are on HIS (will) PROGRAM David...  HE is NOT on ours (will)...  He is orchestrating this whole thing, which is why ALL THINGS that occur in His Creation are ORDAINED, and are intended TO,  and WILL... Glorify Him FOREVER!

REPENTENCE did NOT come from within you David...  The WORD states that the GOODNESS OF GOD, leadeth THEE to REPENTENCE -- you do not do it of yourself. (Rom 2:4)  --- where's the "free will"?

Your FAITH is also not a product of yours... for CHRIST is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our FAITH... (Heb 12:2)  HE originates the FAITH which CAUSES you to BELIEVE! --- where's the "free will"?

The WORD also says that MAN ...CANNOT... come to CHRIST except YHVH ...DRAW him... (John 6:44 & 65) --- where's the "free will"?

Quote from: davidsulem on October 30, 2008, 11:07:55 PMArminianism is wrong not because it believes in man's freewill, but because it exalts and empowers man's limited fallen freewill above God's sovereign will in salvation. You may wish to see Chapter 18 of our free online book, www.GodsPlanForAll.com for further information on Arminianism, Calvinism and Universalism.

Hmmm... limited FALLEN, ...free will?  :mshock:  Come on bro... thats like saying -- disgustingly awful - deliciously sweet candy...   How can something CONFINED be FREE?  How can something FALLEN (from OBEDIENCE to the Creator of FREEDOM), be FREE?  As I see it, these are contradictory terms put together to establish something (free will) that is not there...

About your book, ...thanks, but no thanks... (no offense)... There are many writings by men out there which claim truth... but the only book I need to find it, is the WORD of God... I'm sure you'll understand!   :laughing7:

willieH: Howdee Taffster!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 12:52:11 AM
oh Dear, the free will thread comes around once more....

David,..anything which IS limited is NOT FREE, tis an oxymoron brother, not that I care, but for sure some smart a--e is going to pick ya Up on it...

saying that..nothing more to say on the subject. :icon_flower:

welcome to Tent :icon_flower:

Hey Graham... David and his wife are "brits"! 

Maybe you guys are within contact distance!  Just thought I'd add that in...

Hope you are feelin better bratha!  :afFro:

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 01:39:55 AM
Hi Taffy,

Thank you for your welcome.

A will by definition is free even if it is limited.  It is an oxymoron to say that man has a will and at the same time deny its freedom.  Limited freedom is still freedom but within boundaries. The fact that I am limited and cannot fly freely like a bird does not take away form my God given freedom to walk, run and choose to do many other things within my capabilities.

:bigGrin:

Though we disagree on fallen angels, we agree on what free-will is. It is amazing how people cannot understand limited freedom, is still freedom only limited.

Once again the anti-free-will people demonstrate a lack of understanding and ineptitude to knowledge concerning what freedom is, and the fact that the will had freedom, even if that freedom is within limites. Even God's will is not free to sin, therefore God's does not sin. Now if God is free to sin, that mean He will sin. If God sins, then there is no hope in such God and our life, physical and spiritual is vanity of an arrogant selfish God.

If someone has no understanding the ontological nature of 'freedom', it becomes very obvious in their replies. I wish they just see the bigger picture instead of stick to their narrow and limited perception of what freedom is, and what the will is.

willieH: Hi David!   :cloud9:

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 12:46:31 AMWith respect to Genesis 1:26-27, I prefer to take the Bible at its face value. The verses clearly says that God has created us in His own image. Nobody is saying that we are 100% like God. However, we are still made in the image of God as we can have relationship with God and understand the attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.

ALL that GOD does is on an "IS" basis bro... the word "created" is a TIME confined, and defined, term...

GOD is not confined by TIME, He established it [time] as an entity which parades in its FULLNESS before GOD...

ALL TIME is present before GOD at "ALL TIMES"... so the word CREATED is something which may be applied to US, but NOT to Him... nor His doings...

HE is CREATING man, for CREATING is an "IS" thing... CREATED is a "WAS" thing... which is not applicable to HIM...

He is (during the course of time) IN PROCESS of molding the clay bro... part of which includes the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST in each one...

Scott is correct (Pneuma) in stating that only CHRIST is MAN in the COMPLETE image of GOD... for CHRIST is the WORD of YHVH, and the WORD is an ETERNAL entity and appears COMPLETE, which is apart from TIME (the state of INCOMPLETENESS)...

This is WHY and HOW CHRIST was slain from the foundation of the world... it was a done deal from the BEGINNING, because He is the BEGINNING and the END... SIMULTANEOUSLY...

That the event of His death was witnessed and manifest IN TIME, does not in any way, confine it to have been a TIME defined event... it was an ETERNAL defined event...

GOD's WORD ...ALWAYS IS... and changes not... (Heb 13:8) 

willieH:  :laughing7:

And once again the "Limited Free will people" write words which are contrary to themselves...

LIMITED means confined... FREE means UNCONFINED...

That the WILL of man is UNCONFINED by OBEDIENCE within its DISOBEDIENCE... only verifies its confinement to that DISOBEDIENCE... which is NOT FREEDOM.

FREEDOM, ...is to be loosed from the bondage of DISOBEDIENT CONFINEMENT... (caused by man exercising HIS will, over and instead of GOD's)

FREEDOM,  ...is what the WORD of GOD actually manifests!

When His WORD is applied to the experience of those CONFINED by their DISOBEDIENCE... (heard) they are, MADE FREE... (John 8:32)

And thereby IN that FREEDOM become OBEDIENT... which is FREE indeed!

FREE of what?  FREE of DISOBEDIENCE, the NATURAL state of MAN...

Quote from: SOtW on October 27, 2008, 06:38:43 AM
If that is not what you were saying and you don't believe in free-will, then who cares what you think, we have no choice in the matter anyways...

Sorry Craig, gotta bring this up once again.

Free Will (two definitions from online dictionary)
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

My comments
1. equates free will with ability to choose.
2. equates free will with ability to choose in a certain way -- unconstrained by circumstances or God.

Some synonyms for "constrain"
verb 1. restrict, confine, curb, restrain, rein, constrict, hem in, straiten, check, chain
verb 2. force, pressure, urge, bind, compel, oblige, necessitate, coerce, impel, pressurize, drive

No one can discuss free will with someone without knowing which of the above two defintions (or other) are being employed.  Can we debate whether X exists while using different defintions for X?  No.

You assumed that Paul either meant
1. no free will = no self determination
2. no free will = no choice

You left out a third possibility that Paul might believe (what I believe)

3. no free will = no uncontrained choice, but still choice

I believe we choose (select from two or more altiernatives) using out mind, reason, thoughts, wills applied to some situation.  God can and does constrain (urge, pressurize, see above list) us to choose what He intends.  Yet we still choose using our wills.

Example: Jonah was contrained to choose to testify to Nineveh.
Typical Rebuttal: but Jonah could have still refused
My Rebuttal: yeah, he could have refused, if he weren't Jonah

Under defintion #1 I believe in free will
Under defintion #2 I do not believe in free will

Hi WiilieH, Thank you for your welcome.

I completely disagree with you. Your reasonings are unsound and unbiblical. I shall reply in detail in my next post.

Hi SOtW,

I am pleased we agree.

QuoteIt is amazing how people cannot understand limited freedom, is still freedom only limited.

The Bible speaks about limited freedom from Genesis to Revelation. The idea that we have no freewill is totally an unbiblical concept.

I think free will just can't be proved.
Simple example to get my point across. Use your free will to take it out of context....  :pointlaugh:
God created different kinds of fruit. We can eat what we find tastes best. We define that as free will.
In heaven there are for example 100 types of fruit that taste a 100 times better than what we have on earth.
If we had access to that fruit we would pick the heavenly fruit above the earthly fruit.
But God choose not to give access to that fruit.
So basically we have a free will to chose between the choices presented to us by God.
And perhaps we are even under mind-control when making that choice....

hI wILLIE,   

Maybe a shorter example to narrow the explanations down to help people understand where your coming from.  Excuse the reference to yourself as just an example.


Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 03:02:53 PM

QuoteAre you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

Not.

Otherwise Willie would use all smilies availble on Internet  :laughing7: :icon_king: :icon_joker: :bgdance: :dsunny: :laugh: :laugh2: :rolllol: :pointlaugh: :this: :LH: :laughhand: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance:

Sorry I forgot to add you fav icon Mr. WillieH
:hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 11:19:05 AMIf we had access to that fruit we would pick the heavenly fruit above the earthly fruit. But God choose not to give access to that fruit. So basically we have a free will to chose between the choices presented to us by God.
And perhaps we are even under mind-control when making that choice....

Even among the options we do have access to, we can not really choose by force-of-will which option we will prefer.  Can you choose to prefer earthly fruit over heavenly fruit?  Or to take the extreme can you choose to prefer eating a rotten apple full of worms over eating a ripe juicy apple?  Our choices are contrained and under pressure.

Quote from: bobf on October 31, 2008, 05:58:55 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 11:19:05 AMIf we had access to that fruit we would pick the heavenly fruit above the earthly fruit. But God choose not to give access to that fruit. So basically we have a free will to chose between the choices presented to us by God.
And perhaps we are even under mind-control when making that choice....

Even among the options we do have access to, we can not really choose by force-of-will which option we will prefer.  Can you choose to prefer earthly fruit over heavenly fruit?  Or to take the extreme can you choose to prefer eating a rotten apple full of worms over eating a ripe juicy apple?  Our choices are contrained and under pressure.

Bob,
I agree with what you wrote.
But it can be argued that you choose the ripe apple by free will simply because you freely decided it tastes better.
But why do you think it tastes better? Perhaps that choice is steered by your brain telling you that you get sick of such food. Same goes for rotten meat. It will do you more bad than good. Even if you are starving. But a raven eats both fleshly killed and rotten meat. The body design of the raven has widened its free will of chosing food.
So the choices you have are restricted evn more by limitation of your body.
You may like to gamble but that's no choice for you because you have to feed your family.
So factors that limit the free will are everywhere. So when you make choice in such a situation is it really a choice?
Think not.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 06:26:20 PM

Quote from: bobf on October 31, 2008, 05:58:55 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 11:19:05 AMIf we had access to that fruit we would pick the heavenly fruit above the earthly fruit. But God choose not to give access to that fruit. So basically we have a free will to chose between the choices presented to us by God.
And perhaps we are even under mind-control when making that choice....

Even among the options we do have access to, we can not really choose by force-of-will which option we will prefer.  Can you choose to prefer earthly fruit over heavenly fruit?  Or to take the extreme can you choose to prefer eating a rotten apple full of worms over eating a ripe juicy apple?  Our choices are contrained and under pressure.

Bob,
I agree with what you wrote.
But it can be argued that you choose the ripe apple by free will simply because you freely decided it tastes better.
But why do you think it tastes better? Perhaps that choice is steered by your brain telling you that you get sick of such food. Same goes for rotten meat. It will do you more bad than good. Even if you are starving. But a raven eats both fleshly killed and rotten meat. The body design of the raven has widened its free will of chosing food.
So the choices you have are restricted evn more by limitation of your body.
You may like to gamble but that's no choice for you because you have to feed your family.
So factors that limit the free will are everywhere. So when you make choice in such a situation is it really a choice?
Think not.

Given your example,  what about the ones that will gamble with a family to feed?

Quote2. no free will = no choice

There is no choice without freedom of will. If you say we have choice, we have freedom. I use the PRIMARY definition of free-will and not the second definition. Free will is the ability for the will to make a choice.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 06:27:58 PM
Given your example,  what about the ones that will gamble with a family to feed?

Hard to answer that Paul.
I think there are several gradations of free will.
Some choices are no longer choices because they are impossible. I want to fly like an hawk and run fast an cheeta and be stong as a elephant.
I want to fruit in heaven but I can't reach it. Even worse I don't know it exists because its hidden from me.
Then to your question....
Indeed there is some choice involved for the gambler. Assume both gamblers are equally poor/rich etc.
Both have the same love for their family.
There is a struggle in their head. A conflict of free will. The free will to gamble and the free way to support your family the best you can. That inner struggle often is largely controlled by social behavior.
So Paul, basicly the answer to your question is that it's a grey area.

Broken down in groups (of course there are many more)

a]
The heavenly fruit.
My free will is limted to the choices given/shown to me.
=> free will to choice from preselected things.

b]
Eating rotten meat. Flying. Speed. Strength
The way my body is designed greatly controls that choice.
=> free will limited by design limitations

c]
Eating worms.
Worms often are very nutricious. Many who live in rainforrests eat them.
Most westerners won't because of learned behavior.
=> free will is limited by culture

d]
Gambling example.
=> Free will is limited by inner struggle

e]
Simple choices. Willies smilie example.
Willie won't get into any trouble if he used the red cap smiley instead of the black hat smiley.
So trival things like using smilies are almost free will.
Yep I wrote almost.
For example I doubt Martin would allow swastika or satanic smilies.
In this case that is no limitation because I'm pretty sure Willie doesn't even want to use such smilies. That's why he's called WILLie  :laughing7:
My fruit bowl is generously filled with several types of fruit. I can afford it so that's no issue.
There is enough for all so I can pick whatever I want. So free will here
=> If free will exists it exists for trival choices.

Quote from: SOtW on October 31, 2008, 06:37:46 PM

Quote2. no free will = no choice

There is no choice without freedom of will. If you say we have choice, we have freedom. I use the PRIMARY definition of free-will and not the second definition. Free will is the ability for the will to make a choice.

So would you say it is possible for God (or anyone or anything for that matter) to cause you make a certain choice, while at the same time you still made the choice?

Quote from: bobf on October 31, 2008, 07:13:06 PM

Quote from: SOtW on October 31, 2008, 06:37:46 PM

Quote2. no free will = no choice

There is no choice without freedom of will. If you say we have choice, we have freedom. I use the PRIMARY definition of free-will and not the second definition. Free will is the ability for the will to make a choice.

So would you say it is possible for God (or anyone or anything for that matter) to cause you make a certain choice, while at the same time you still made the choice?

A 100% certain yes.
The simple answer is yes nothing is impossible for God.
Another answer is best stated as a question to you.

Bob I give you 2 choices. No hard feeling whatever you choose.
a] I give you 2 cents.
b] I torture your whole town including your family to death.

As said no hard feelings from me whatever you choose. So don't be scared of me.
Would you choice really be of free will?

We have free will.  There's no question about that, as the child that was told to sit down who grumbled to himself that he might be sitting on the outside, but he's standing on the inside.  What people confuse for a lack of free will is the current level of futility to existance:

for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. (Romans 7:18)

And then talking about after Jesus was raised from the dead, the Bible says: "For the creation was subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20)

When Jesus had shattered death, He left us with the announcement of His conquest over death and the promise of life for all, but He ascended into heaven without having actually set all of Creation free because of the choices, rewards, and punishments that are yet lacking to be made for the systematic redevelopment of all of Creation -- not only before God, but in relation to each molecule in relation to every other molecule.  The New Testament presupposes free will in all that it tells us to do:

"He who would love life
      And see good days,
       Let him refrain his tongue from evil,
      And his lips from speaking deceit.
       11 Let him turn away from evil and do good;
       Let him seek peace and pursue it.
       12 For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
       And His ears are open to their prayers;
      But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil." (1Peter 3:10-12)

These three verses give us something to exercise our free will on, until we've reclaimed our tongues from the fires of Gehenna, according to this passage being compared with James chapter 3.  The tongue can no man tame in the way that one would tame a horse or some other beast of the field.  It takes a progressive yeilding to the Holy Spirit, which, again, involves our free will as far as how quickly we become the most submitted to the Word of Christ.  There can be no just punishment without presupposing freedom of choice to cooperate in playing one's very tiny part in the conformity with the image of Christ process.  The New Testament, through St. Paul, teaches repentance.  This is impossible without the free will to do so.  The Bible teaches not being conformed to this world but being transformed by the renewing of your mind.  This requires free will to keep on and on and on with the New Testament because your mind stays as renewed as your hair stays combed.  There's always all kinds of wind and other intrusional things to challenge the level that you've attained to.  Discipleship to Jesus, which is what all of St. John's writings are about, presupposes following Him step by step which requires as much our free choice as it requires His sustaining/carrying Hand at work.

The problem has been our definitions of free will.  Jesus wouldn't jump off of the pinnacle of the Temple because freedom of choice doesn't involve lunacy.  Jesus wouldn't come down off of the cross to satisfy the Pharisees because freedom of choice doesn't involve telling the will of God for one's life to go to Hell.  Jesus wouldn't show Himself to all of Jerusalem and to the Roman authorities after His resurrection because their free choice to become His disciples didn't involve having their flesh satisfied in all of the particulars of it's demands for sensory proof because the brain could be awed, but there wouldn't be an ounce of faith triggered in their spirits in relation to the Gospel because that would be considering their own bodies in terms of the data that their bodies could accumulate rather than considering only what God had promised.  Free will doesn't involve the satisfaction of emotions.  It involves the ability to do the things that God says that we can/should/will do -- no more and no less.

Quote from: bobf on October 31, 2008, 07:13:06 PM

Quote from: SOtW on October 31, 2008, 06:37:46 PM

Quote2. no free will = no choice

There is no choice without freedom of will. If you say we have choice, we have freedom. I use the PRIMARY definition of free-will and not the second definition. Free will is the ability for the will to make a choice.

So would you say it is possible for God (or anyone or anything for that matter) to cause you make a certain choice, while at the same time you still made the choice?

Irrelevant, it doesn't matter how difficult the choice, if you have a choice you have freedom of choice. If you have freedom of choice, that is synonymous of freedom of will. No person is caused to make a certain choice, if they were it was never a choice. If you had a choice between doing something or dying, you still have a choice do something or die. If you die, you still made a choice. You are still inconsistent with your explanation, using fallacy to defend your belief won't make it any more true than the fallacy that is used.

Yo Willie

Yo Brud, I believe maybe David and Zoe maybe from down the south east of Britian..maybe around the London area....

yeah, Im doing Ok thanks Bud, same old same,,,,but im home.....Likewise, hope you too are recovering as BEST as possible matey....

well that me done on this thread...its just goes around and around..I remember last yrs episode  Bro...about the same...youch!

Go Easy Willie H, as ya mum would say :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Quote from: SOtW on October 31, 2008, 07:33:57 PMIrrelevant,

I don't see how a question like that can be irrelavant.  Based on your response, I now have a clearer picture of what you believe.

Quoteit doesn't matter how difficult the choice, if you have a choice you have freedom. No person is caused to make a certain choice, if they were it was never a choice. If that is the case, then you are inconsistent with your explanation of what a 'choice' is.

Disagree.  My defintion of choice is selection from two are more alternatives using our faculty of thought, reason, will, etc.

Primary Definitions of 'cause' from Merriam Webster
(v) Cause - 1 : to serve as a cause or occasion of
(n) Cause - 1 a: a reason for an action or condition : motive b: something that brings about an effect or a result

Since we give reasons for our choices that are external to our wills those are causes.  Why did you bring an umbrella?  Because it's going to rain.  So what?  I don't like to get wet.  Why?  It doesn't feel good and I might catch a cold.  Why doesn't it feel good?  Dunno, it just doesn't.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 07:23:06 PM
A 100% certain yes.  The simple answer is yes nothing is impossible for God.

I agree.

QuoteAnother answer is best stated as a question to you.

Bob I give you 2 choices. No hard feeling whatever you choose.
a] I give you 2 cents.
b] I torture your whole town including your family to death.

As said no hard feelings from me whatever you choose. So don't be scared of me.
Would you choice really be of free will?

Of course I would choose (A).  What are the causes that are external to myself?

QuoteWhat are the causes that are external to myself?

I'm not 100% sure I understand that question.
That said:

a] laws
b] social pressure.
c] learned behavior. Often based on a and b
d] how you parents raised you. Likely stronly based on a and b
e] Likely some other things

I think I explained my view on the subject pretty wel a few posts back.
Basicly I believe God gave us free will. But there are limitations to that free will.
Remebering an earlier thread on free will I think I'm pretty much in line with Craig.
I'm now thinking about your free will drawing Craig. The drawing with the boxes.

Quote from: SOtW on October 31, 2008, 07:33:57 PMYou are still inconsistent with your explanation, using fallacy to defend your belief won't make it any more true than the fallacy that is used.

What explanation or fallacy?  I asked a question.  I did not assert anything!

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 03:07:57 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 03:02:53 PM

QuoteAre you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

Not.

Otherwise Willie would use all smilies availble on Internet  :laughing7: :icon_king: :icon_joker: :bgdance: :dsunny: :laugh: :laugh2: :rolllol: :pointlaugh: :this: :LH: :laughhand: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance:

Sorry I forgot to add you fav icon Mr. WillieH
:hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere:

:laughing7:

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 08:47:44 AM
Hi WiilieH, Thank you for your welcome.

I completely disagree with you. Your reasonings are unsound and unbiblical. I shall reply in detail in my next post.

So say YOU... I look forward to your post...

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 08:04:24 PM
That said:

a] laws
b] social pressure.
c] learned behavior. Often based on a and b
d] how you parents raised you. Likely stronly based on a and b
e] Likely some other things

Those are the kinds of things I was thinking of.  I was just trying clarify that it's not the giving of two wildly different alternatives that is the cause of me choosing (A) it is my sense of morality which was either inborn or learned.  I'm not in control of what was inborn.  And learning is at least in part due to things external to myself.

QuoteI think I explained my view on the subject pretty wel a few posts back.
Basicly I believe God gave us free will. But there are limitations to that free will.
Remebering an earlier thread on free will I think I'm pretty much in line with Craig.
I'm now thinking about your free will drawing Craig. The drawing with the boxes.

But you and Craig gave opposite responses to my question!?

willieH: Hi brother P... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 03:02:53 PM

hI wILLIE,   

Maybe a shorter example to narrow the explanations down to help people understand where your coming from.  Excuse the reference to yourself as just an example.


Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

I have the CHOICE to place that icon in greeting... and am only doing so because it was ordained by YHVH (yes even that trivial detail)... before any of you had eyes to see that little eyesore -- eh?  :laughing7:

CHOICE is not FREE WILL...  :dontknow:

Only GOD's WILL shall be done in ETERNITY bro... wherein is man's "FREE WILL" found there & then?

Let me answer my own question... To do the WILL of GOD (not your own) is a WILL found FREE...

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 07:44:57 PM
Yo Willie

Yo Brud, I believe maybe David and Zoe maybe from down the south east of Britian..maybe around the London area....

yeah, Im doing Ok thanks Bud, same old same,,,,but im home.....Likewise, hope you too are recovering as BEST as possible matey....

well that me done on this thread...its just goes around and around..I remember last yrs episode  Bro...about the same...youch!

Go Easy Willie H, as ya mum would say :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

ThankYe bro... and the "FREE WILL" merry-go-round makes yet another revolution here at TM!  :laughhand:

Quote from: bobf on October 31, 2008, 08:16:39 PM

QuoteI think I explained my view on the subject pretty wel a few posts back.
Basicly I believe God gave us free will. But there are limitations to that free will.
Remebering an earlier thread on free will I think I'm pretty much in line with Craig.
I'm now thinking about your free will drawing Craig. The drawing with the boxes.

But you and Craig gave opposite responses to my question!?

I pass this one on to Craig. I said my thing and Craig certainly doesn't need me to explain what he means  :laughhand:
I searched the forum for your freewill drawing Craig. Couldn't find it. Perhaps you can repost it? I think it will make things a bit more clear.

Quote from: willieH on October 31, 2008, 08:22:36 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 07:44:57 PM
Yo Willie

Yo Brud, I believe maybe David and Zoe maybe from down the south east of Britian..maybe around the London area....

yeah, Im doing Ok thanks Bud, same old same,,,,but im home.....Likewise, hope you too are recovering as BEST as possible matey....

well that me done on this thread...its just goes around and around..I remember last yrs episode  Bro...about the same...youch!

Go Easy Willie H, as ya mum would say :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

ThankYe bro... and the "FREE WILL" merry-go-round makes yet another revolution here at TM!  :laughhand:

peacE...

willieH  :icon_king:

Hey Brud

im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

Quote from: bobf on October 31, 2008, 08:16:39 PM
Those are the kinds of things I was thinking of.  I was just trying clarify that it's not the giving of two wildly different alternatives that is the cause of me choosing (A) it is my sense of morality which was either inborn or learned.  I'm not in control of what was inborn.  And learning is at least in part due to things external to myself.

The red part can be base for an endless discussing.
I can easily learn you some thing. The question is you will accept it? If yes/no why?
My idea that I can't back up in any way is that God/jesus created us with a prewired brain.
We are created in His image. Now I'm not claiming I'm God. Far from that.
But I think we inherited the morality of God.
Just to avoid being shot for that remark; again I'm not claiming to have the same superior morality als Father/Son/HS have.

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 08:35:39 PM
im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

I dug up school pic of your Taffman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/TinFoilHat002.jpg/800px-TinFoilHat002.jpg

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 08:43:44 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 08:35:39 PM
im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

I dug up school pic of your Taffman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/TinFoilHat002.jpg/800px-TinFoilHat002.jpg

yas certifiable WW,,,,..I got hair, but , never the less, send me one of those hats, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...
:icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 08:49:58 PM
, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...

So the thread leads. Normally. Meaning a choice.
So in fact you say God created threads with free will?

Which one is Taf?  They look like they could be brothers . . .

Quote from: willieH on October 31, 2008, 08:18:39 PM
willieH: Hi brother P... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 03:02:53 PM

hI wILLIE,   

Maybe a shorter example to narrow the explanations down to help people understand where your coming from.  Excuse the reference to yourself as just an example.


Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

I have the CHOICE to place that icon in greeting... and am only doing so because it was ordained by YHVH (yes even that trivial detail)... before any of you had eyes to see that little eyesore -- eh?  :laughing7:

CHOICE is not FREE WILL...  :dontknow:

Only GOD's WILL shall be done in ETERNITY bro... wherein is man's "FREE WILL" found there & then?

Let me answer my own question... To do the WILL of GOD (not your own) is a WILL found FREE...

peacE...

willieH  :icon_king:

So, just entertaining some thought here.   Lets suppose you must be accountable for posting those eyesores based on it being a sinful act.  :happy3:   If it is ordained by God, what is the manner of your accountability?  

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 08:59:51 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 08:49:58 PM
, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...

So the thread leads. Normally. Meaning a choice.
So in fact you say God created threads with free will?

heres my take.....

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

He that is, also sets us in such perimeters, which means ,we can not choose OUTside what hes HAS set In motion...

again, anything which is LIMITED ( check your dictionary) is not FREE...., all choices ,come by cause and effect....we CHoose what we Eat Because we are Hungry, ...we choose our college to how it best suits our purpose,we choose to pick out NOSE because its full of Boggies....

your choice was either to respond to My post or not, but it was mY post which gave you the Option, all of which comes within the Perimeters which HE set from the beginning....

:icon_flower:
...

Quote from: Nathan on October 31, 2008, 09:07:54 PM
Which one is Taf?  They look like they could be brothers . . .

Nat...
check me avatar....Tom selleck pinched me looks...

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 09:12:35 PM

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

Based on that,  do you have the free will to live or not to live a life devoted to God within those boundaries?

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 09:12:35 PM
your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

He that is, also sets us in such perimeters, which means ,we can not choose OUTside what hes HAS set In motion...

again, anything which is LIMITED ( check your dictionary) is not FREE...., all choices ,come by cause and effect....we CHoose what we Eat Because we are Hungry, ...we choose our college to how it best suits our purpose,we choose to pick out NOSE because its full of Boggies....

We can no start a fight over defenitions of free and limited. That would be useless because I agree with your prison example.

Quoteyour choice was either to respond to My post or not

As if I really have a choice not to respond to such a superb post  :laughing7:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 09:19:39 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 09:12:35 PM

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

Based on that,  do you have the free will to live or not to live a life devoted to God within those boundaries?

not according to scripture....or else we claim the credit ,..He leads us to repentance, he draws us to him ,....

To Him the Glory.

what restricted many of Old was the Bondage ( conditioning)of LAW, which prevented them going through the veil and become established....the hardness of their HEART and Miinds....

They were Bound within the perimeters of Centuries of Tradition....if one is BOUND ,then how can one be FREE?

Pauls case epitomises it...

thing is,, we dont live in such days and have  the benefit of History to look back on..  not for second do I  believe I take the  Glory of choice by choosing HIM....I believe I was LED to such a Place through experience which Ultimately led to HIS PATH.....so many rds to choose which for me lead Only to One destination....

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 09:32:15 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 09:19:39 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 09:12:35 PM

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

Based on that,  do you have the free will to live or not to live a life devoted to God within those boundaries?

not according to scripture....or else we claim the credit ,..He leads us to repentance, he draws us to him ,....

To Him the Glory.

what restricted many of Old was the Bondage ( conditioning)of LAW, which prevented them going through the veil and become established....the heartness of their HEART and Miinds....

They were Bound within the perimeters of Centuries of Tradition....if one is BOUND ,then how can one be FREE?

Pauls case epitomises it...

thing is,, we dont live in such days and have  the benefit of History to look back on..  not for second do I  believe I take the  Glory of choice by choosing HIM....I believe I was LED to such a Place through experience which Ultimately led to HIS PATH.....so many rds to choose which for me lead Only to One destination....

So then, my friend who continues to do drugs and cause pain to his wife is right when he says it is not his fault?

willHE-H:   :laughing7:

Hey brother M... If what you say below is so... then it is OUR WILL which empowers us to OBEY or DISOBEY...

Meaning that CHRIST is just a "by-stander"... for if OBEDIENCE is accomplished by our ability to CHOOSE it... then He is not the source of that OBEDIENCE, ...we are...

And HE is in fact, not "authoring and FINISHING" [completing our faith]... we are.

Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2008, 07:31:38 PM
We have free will.  There's no question about that, as the child that was told to sit down who grumbled to himself that he might be sitting on the outside, but he's standing on the inside.  What people confuse for a lack of free will is the current level of futility to existance:

for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. (Romans 7:18)

Sorry to disagree dear brother, but I see a different thing taught in the Scriptures.

The "HOW to PERFORM" portion is the resulting CHOICES that Paul is making bro...

That which EMPOWERS one to CHOOSE to "DISOBEY" ones OWN WILL, ...by OBEYING GOD's WILL... is GOD...

If GOD is the source of the POWER to OBEY... then OUR WILL is enslaved to itself... for we cannot OBEY OF OURSELVES (as Paul notes in the quote you noted above)... it means we are ENSLAVED to the resultant DISOBEDIENCE within the "power" we utilize to "CHOOSE"...

Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2008, 07:31:38 PMAnd then talking about after Jesus was raised from the dead, the Bible says: "For the creation was subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20)

This only makes my point bro...  If the "creation" was SUBJECTED to futility... then the stated SUBJECTION is not of their doing... or origination...  which is WHY Divine JUSTIFICATION (Grace)... is JUST!

HERE is an example of what I am saying:

If I were to send you into a store while holding a gun to your wifes head, and instructed you to steal a piece of bubblegum in order to save her life... is the theft due to your will?  Or is it due to mine?  (Should you be due punishment for the theft?)

Of course, it is due to mine... for you did as you did, in order to save your wife. 

If later on, you discover that ...I... am the owner of the store... than I am JUSTIFIED to NOT bring charges against YOU for STEALING - eh?

For it was I, ...who sent YOU to STEAL... from MY STORE...  :dontknow:

Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2008, 07:31:38 PMWhen Jesus had shattered death, He left us with the announcement of His conquest over death and the promise of life for all, but He ascended into heaven without having actually set all of Creation free because of the choices, rewards, and punishments that are yet lacking to be made for the systematic redevelopment of all of Creation -- not only before God, but in relation to each molecule in relation to every other molecule.  The New Testament presupposes free will in all that it tells us to do:

"He who would love life
      And see good days,
       Let him refrain his tongue from evil,
      And his lips from speaking deceit.
       11 Let him turn away from evil and do good;
       Let him seek peace and pursue it.
       12 For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
       And His ears are open to their prayers;
      But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil." (1Peter 3:10-12)

This only notes that GOD is set against every WILL which is ENSLAVED to ITSELF, and NOT aligned with HIS WILL, which is FREE...

GOD is set against EVIL -- which is wrought by MEN who's choices, which are apart from the Him and ENSLAVED to their SELFISHNESS...  :dontknow:  (James 1:14)

Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2008, 07:31:38 PMThese three verses give us something to exercise our free will on, until we've reclaimed our tongues from the fires of Gehenna, according to this passage being compared with James chapter 3.  The tongue can no man tame in the way that one would tame a horse or some other beast of the field.  It takes a progressive yeilding to the Holy Spirit, which, again, involves our free will as far as how quickly we become the most submitted to the Word of Christ.

This portion only makes my point bro... We can only become FREE, as it is CREATED in us by the WORD which thereby brings forth OBEDIENCE... and redeems it from the Natural WILL's ...ENSLAVEMENT to itself... which is DISOBEDIENT to the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2008, 07:31:38 PMThere can be no just punishment without presupposing freedom of choice to cooperate in playing one's very tiny part in the conformity with the image of Christ process.

GOD is not in the punishment business... the sufferings we experience here are the active JUDGMENT which comes against SINFUL FLESHLY behaviors... which end in DEATH of the FLESH. (the "vessels" of DISHONOR -- FITTED for DESTRUCTION...  this "fitting" is preordained, or predestined)

GRACE is the JUSTIFICATION (which is essentially DIVINE JUSTICE)... that returns that which IT drove into the CAPTIVITY (disobedience), that it is found within (Jer 29:14) ...and which said CAPTIVITY was generated by GOD...

CHRIST suffered in this life, because HE took upon Himself our SPIRITUAL misbehaviors, and nailed them to His cross... redeeming us to LIFE in the SPIRIT

Paul mentions this process in Romans 9, and notes that GOD is just in creating TWO vessels, one CREATED [FITTED] for DESTRUCTION, the other for GLORY...

That which is "FITTED", ....is accomplished by the "FITTER", ...not the "FITTEE"...

This teaching is plainly found in several places in the NT...  (Rom 11:32 / Rom 9:21 / Rom 8:20) and displays that our DISOBEDIENCE is DIVINELY ordained... as is our REDEMPTION ...FROM it...

GOD "concluded" all in UNBELIEF (which is the state of SIN)...
GOD "subjected" the Creation to vanity without regard to "WILL"
GOD "fitted" us (our fleshly vessel) for DESTRUCTION of His WILL

Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2008, 07:31:38 PMThe New Testament, through St. Paul, teaches repentance.  This is impossible without the free will to do so.

I have already posted the Scripture which PAUL notes that REPENTENCE does not originate FROM the WILL of MAN, rather it is the GOODNESS of GOD which LEADS one to REPENTENCE (Rom 2:4)

The "will of man" cannot and WILL NOT REPENT, without the POWER and GOODNESS of GOD to LEAD him to do so...

QuoteThe Bible teaches not being conformed to this world but being transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Again bro... the "renewing of your mind" is not done by YOU... it is the POWER of CHRIST which draws you to Himself... and DOES the changing that is necessary IN YOU...

ELECTION is GOD's doing, not Man's via his "choices"...  GOD is working ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL (Eph 1:11)...  Part of HIS WILL is that we are IMMERSED for a "time" in EVIL that we might display by this awful DISOBEDIENT and SELFISH behavior, the GLORY of the GOODNESS and JOY of GOD via OBEDIENCE to Him...

ALL THINGS includes our moments of SELFISH and WILLFUL "choices" which drive us from Him, and into CAPTIVITY (will of man IN BONDAGE to itself)...  ALL THINGS also includes His GRACE which brings us OUT of that CAPTIVITY, into the GLORIOUS LIGHT of HIS WILL... which is BEST for ALL, ...FOREVER!

Quote from: martincisneros on October 31, 2008, 07:31:38 PMThis requires free will to keep on and on and on with the New Testament because your mind stays as renewed as your hair stays combed.  There's always all kinds of wind and other intrusional things to challenge the level that you've attained to.  Discipleship to Jesus, which is what all of St. John's writings are about, presupposes following Him step by step which requires as much our free choice as it requires His sustaining/carrying Hand at work.

If this is so... then JESUS does not get the "credit" for our following Him... we do!

It also means that we are USURPING glory from Him... which is what was being done by those mentioned in Matt 7:22... they saying:  didnt WE do this and didnt WE do that!

I've said enough...  :msealed:  ...more than I intended...  I meant no offense to you brother, in any of my words... they are how I see it... And you are more than welcome to disagree with any or all that I have said here...

Hi WillieH and All,

I shall try to make this post as short as possible and come straight to the heart of this debate.

Firstly, let me be abundantly clear that I absolutely believe in the complete sovereignty of God. Even a sparrow does not fall to the ground apart from the will of God. (Matthew 10:29)

The main difference between your (WillieH's) understanding of Scripture and mine is that you see man's freewill can only work in opposition to God's sovereign will. This is why you strongly argue against man's freewill. You fail to see how man's freewill can work in harmony with God's sovereign will. This is why your reasoning on this subject becomes faulty and unbiblical. For me, the understanding that my freewill and everybody else's freewill works in harmony with God's sovereign will, exalts God's power, His love, and his purpose to the highest level for me and for the whole of mankind. Even the freewill of evil men is within God's will, including the will of the murders of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Let me give you one clear example from the Bible, which you have already referred to:

"Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." (Luke 22:42)

Jesus Christ uttered these words as a Man, from his lowly human perspective and not from his heavenly Godly perspective. He knew what it was to be a man with human feelings and to battle against the pains and temptations of the flesh. 

Did Jesus Christ have a will? YES, of course, the scripture says so.

Did Jesus Christ utter these words, willingly? YES, absolutely.

Did Jesus Christ willingly and freely bring His will in line with the Father's will.  YES, of course He did.

For anyone to suggest that Jesus Christ did not have freewill is false and unbiblical. If Jesus Christ did not have freewill, then he was compelled or programmed to utter these words. This would negate the work of the cross completely. 

Yes, our salvation is 100% the work of God's sovereign will from start to finish, and every aspect of our salvation is a gift from God including repentance, faith and the gift of freewill. Yes, compared to God's will, man's will is very limited, but FREE it is.

Let us be clear that Universalism does not mean forced salvation and God does not force His salvation on anyone. Ultimately, everybody will be saved in this life or the next life in God's time and order. God's Spirit will draw all people from being blind in darkness into having sight in His light, so that they can understand the full work of cross. God draws only a few, His Elect, in this life, but He will draw the rest in the next life. (John 12:32, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23) Ultimately, all people will make the right freewill choice for their salvation when they see to understand the work of the cross in God's light.

God has created us in His own image, and He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, there can be no relationship with God.

paul

Im not taking away  the choice factor come within lifes circle....we can do what we wish...one  could  get a Gun and Blast anyone if I wanted...Its that I dont choose too, its through life choice and the perimeters which are set we expereince life.. thou through it we  reap what we sow..........but all paths will lead to HIM eventually, or else Not every Knee will BOW.

again everyone paths are different , we dwell in the Darkness UNTIL light IS SHOWN,...we dont turn the LIGHT on ,....He illuminates that darkness .....

Paul was brought to the Place of utter darkness, Literally Blinded till he saw How dark  the life he thought was Light WAS.....DID HE CHOOSE?..look to him for the example.....did he really choose or did he SEE for the FIRST TIME AND REALISE the darkness which went before was FUTILE.....some choice.

QuoteFree will doesn't involve the satisfaction of emotions.  It involves the ability to do the things that God says that we can/should/will do -- no more and no less.

Amen Martin

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PM
The main difference between your (WillieH's) understanding of Scripture and mine is that you see man's freewill can only work in opposition to God's sovereign will. This is why you strongly argue against man's freewill. You fail to see how man's freewill can work in harmony with God's sovereign will. This is why your reasoning on this subject becomes faulty and unbiblical. For me, the understanding that my freewill and everybody else's freewill works in harmony with God's sovereign will,

If free will is limited to free will in harmony of Gods will... is that free will?

willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 09:08:54 PM

Quote from: willieH on October 31, 2008, 08:18:39 PM
willieH: Hi brother P... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 03:02:53 PM

hI wILLIE,   

Maybe a shorter example to narrow the explanations down to help people understand where your coming from.  Excuse the reference to yourself as just an example.


Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

I have the CHOICE to place that icon in greeting... and am only doing so because it was ordained by YHVH (yes even that trivial detail)... before any of you had eyes to see that little eyesore -- eh?  :laughing7:

CHOICE is not FREE WILL...  :dontknow:

Only GOD's WILL shall be done in ETERNITY bro... wherein is man's "FREE WILL" found there & then?

Let me answer my own question... To do the WILL of GOD (not your own) is a WILL found FREE...

peacE...

willieH  :icon_king:

So, just entertaining some thought here.   Lets suppose you must be accountable for posting those eyesores based on it being a sinful act.  :happy3:   If it is ordained by God, what is the manner of your accountability?  

Then it can be said that JESUS died in part for these: :hithere:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

I shall not be PUNISHED for them... only experience the JUST SHAME they are due, because they brought such IMMENSE SORROW to my brothers and sisters, and my Father...  :Whistle:

But you can be GLAD bro... for

JESUS TOOK the "sin" portion of :hithere: away (John 1:29)... so that in ETERNITY, you guys wont be further encumbered by them!  :pointlaugh:

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PM
For anyone to suggest that Jesus Christ did not have freewill is false and unbiblical. If Jesus Christ did not have freewill, then he was compelled or programmed to utter these words. This would negate the work of the cross completely. 

What people will not accept is that there is no point of view that can diminish the work of the cross.   The work of your heart in your body is programmed through DNA to beat and perform a function.  It is irrevelent for the sake of why it beats to determine whether your heart is necessary or important.   Free will or no free will, neither perspective removes Jesus purpose.

Quote
the gift of freewill.

What verse specifies this gift?   

Quote
Let us be clear that Universalism does not mean forced salvation and God does not force His salvation on anyone.

The force of leverage to raise a car off of someones pinned legs is a gift.   God Draws all men unto himself,  if thats not force, what is it?


[/quote]

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PM
Ultimately, all people will make the right freewill choice for their salvation when they see to understand the work of the cross in God's light.

What causes that?

Quote from: willieH on October 31, 2008, 09:50:47 PM
willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

So God ordained your disobedience, then subjects you to the shame of something that he caused?

Free will choice between life and death.

Deuteronomy 30:15-19
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There are three schools of thought concerning the choice given forth in the above scriptures.

1. That there is no choice really given because God is in total control of all choices.

If this be true then God chooses life for some and death for others.  V.15 & V.19

If this is true then God only want some to love the LORD and to walk in His ways and keep His commandments. V.16

If this is true then it is God that turns the heart away which ultimately brings about death. V.17

If this is true then it is Gods will that some perish. V18 and yet we know that it is not Gods will that any should perish. 2Pet.3:9  Herein lies the folly of this belief.

2. That there is a choice but we do not make it but our old nature or God makes it for us.

That simply is NO CHOICE at all for the choice is taken out of OUR hands by our old nature or by God. Which simply means we do not really have a choice at all, which then leads back to the folly of the first line of thought.

If this is true then old nature in us is stronger then God and causes us to turn our hearts away.

3. That man has a free will and that a real choice is given to man, and man makes the choice by his free will.

This is the only school of thought that lines up perfectly with the scriptures above.

We read: I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

God does not set before Himself life and death, and God does not set before our old nature life and death, for the old nature must die.

So who is it that God gives the choice of life and death?

The only answer that does not damage the scripture is US, by our own free will we make the choice of life or death.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Who's heart, who's soul, who's mind, who's strength?

OURS

We read: But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish,

Why does God say ye shall surely perish? When we know that it is not His will that any should perish? 2Pet.3:9

Because in thy heart you have turned away from Him which for this cause He denounces us.

It is not God will that any should perish so why do some perish? Because man has a free will, and by that free will choice he perishes.


Note on perish: This does not mean those who perish cannot be saved all it means is that God places man back under the tutelage of the law which is a ministration of death but also OUR schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

It is not the Fathers will to spank His children but if the child wilfully goes against Him he will correct His children, for if He corrects them not they are bastards and not sons.

Hebrews 12:4-11
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.  11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.  


Joshua 24:15
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.



Does God compel us to serve Him or does He reason together with us?


Isaiah 1:18-20
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


Psalm 32:8-9
8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.  9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

God instructs us and teaches us in the way that we should go by reasoning together with us, not by compulsion, for if one must be compelled to serve God then one is no better then a horse or mule who has no understanding.

Even a babe in Christ is not given a choice of life or death, this choice is only given to one who is mature.

Galatians 4:1-7

Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

A child differeth NOTHING from a servant, a servant does not have a free will but can only do what his master tells him to do. But we are to grow from a child/servant into a full blown son and no longer remain as a servant who has no will of their own.

Jesus said Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Jesus as a full blown son had a free will, He could have called 12 legions of angels and never died on the cross, but He made a choice not my will, but thine be done.

Everything that God gives us must freely be given back to Him, He gave us life and we are to freely give that life back to Him. He set our will free from the slavery of bondage to the old man nature and we are to freely give our will back to Him.

God bless

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 12:46:31 AM
Hi pneuma,

It is good to know that we agree on the matter that God has created us with Freewill.

With respect to Genesis 1:26-27, I prefer to take the Bible at its face value. The verses clearly says that God has created us in His own image. Nobody is saying that we are 100% like God. However, we are still made in the image of God as we can have relationship with God and understand the attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.

Yes, of course, we shall bear the image of the heavenly at the resurrection. But this does not take away from the truth of the Bible that we are now the children of God even in our earthly form. ( 1 John 3:2-3)

Hi again David, for your concideration on the image man bares.

1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.

The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.

1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.

Now in conclusion Paul says

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

God bless.

Quote from: pneuma on October 31, 2008, 10:03:29 PM

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 12:46:31 AM
Hi pneuma,

It is good to know that we agree on the matter that God has created us with Freewill.

With respect to Genesis 1:26-27, I prefer to take the Bible at its face value. The verses clearly says that God has created us in His own image. Nobody is saying that we are 100% like God. However, we are still made in the image of God as we can have relationship with God and understand the attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.

Yes, of course, we shall bear the image of the heavenly at the resurrection. But this does not take away from the truth of the Bible that we are now the children of God even in our earthly form. ( 1 John 3:2-3)

Hi again David, for your concideration on the image man bares.

1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.

The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.

1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.

Now in conclusion Paul says

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

God bless.

Fine Post Scott

Quote from: PneumaThat is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2008, 11:09:42 PM

Quote from: PneumaThat is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

Molly , for sure, I no need to answer for Scott...

but you might find the answer to be!""""""""""""""""no""""""""""""""""""""""".

The flesh, which is the HEART and Mind , our soul,..DIES,...has Nothing to do with the Mortal BODY...its an error many make...
Alas Many, combine the Flesh to be that of the BODY..tis NOT.

To be Born again, is to first  die to self, MIND \ HEART our soul, so we be renewed with a Right mind, The Mind of Christ and BORN ANEW...


I dont know how many times I state this, I sound like a Broken Record....His Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

therefore we are No longer carnal Minded, which Is death , we are SPIRIT, LIFE born anew In HIM...

gee, sis, poor paul, his head must have hurt Kiddo...
:icon_flower:

willieH: Hi David!  :cloud9:

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PM
Hi WillieH and All,

I shall try to make this post as short as possible and come straight to the heart of this debate.

Good luck bro... this thread is probably destined for 15 or 16 pages... back  :blahgreen: ...& forth  :blah: ...& back  :blahgreen: ...& forth  :blah:...  

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PMFirstly, let me be abundantly clear that I absolutely believe in the complete sovereignty of God. Even a sparrow does not fall to the ground apart from the will of God. (Matthew 10:29)

The main difference between your (WillieH's) understanding of Scripture and mine is that you see man's freewill can only work in opposition to God's sovereign will.

First... You present an UNBIBLICAL term, noting man's WILL as FREE...

Second...  This is a contradiction...  If we are doing GOD's "WILL", then we are NOT doing OUR ("free") WILL... :mnah:

Which is WHY JESUS said:  Nevertheless... NOT MY WILL be done, but THINE... for HIS "WILL" was that the CUP PASS... which was IN OPPOSITION to the WILL of GOD, which showed that it DID NOT PASS from Him...

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PMThis is why you strongly argue against man's freewill. You fail  to see how man's freewill can work in harmony with God's sovereign will.

FAIL?  :laugh:  Please... the same can be said of you bro...  :dontknow:

GOD said to Adam in COMMAND (vs 16)... (Gen 2:17) ...but of the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, thou shalt NOT eat of it, for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.

What did the "will" of Eve then purpose?  Remember, James stated (Jms 1:14) that temptation emerges from within man of his own LUST...

She went to the tree, and LUSTED after it... SAW it was good for FOOD (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eye), ...and then desired (lusted) the knowledge it held, in spite of the command and warning of God, and ATE (pride of life)...

THIS is the WILL of man... in action... For ADAM had been given these same warnings and commands... and also, ATE, regardless...

Even though EVE was in the TEMPTATION and TRANSGRESSION... ADAM's "eating" is what OPENED their eyes to EVIL... For nothing occured when Eve ate... it was not until ADAM exercised HIS ("free") WILL (which overrode the COMMAND of GOD)... that the "fall" occured.

This whole event, which involved ADAM and EVE's use of their supposed "free will"... was NOT in harmony with GOD's command, nor His warning...  Nor has it fallen to ANY MAN differently ever since... for ALL have SINNED (transgressed the command of GOD) and come SHORT of the Glory of GOD... ever since!

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PMThis is why your reasoning on this subject becomes faulty and unbiblical. For me, the understanding that my freewill and everybody else's freewill works in harmony with God's sovereign will, exalts God's power, His love, and his purpose to the highest level for me and for the whole of mankind. Even the freewill of evil men is within God's will, including the will of the murders of Jesus Christ on the cross.

The will of man is hardly FREE... it is shown to be within the PRISON or BONDAGE of SIN... you can state it however you shall... but it remains under SIN... and in need of REDEMPTION from it...

GOD's SOVEREIGNTY is COMPLETE... and ALL the events good or evil are ordained to be, or they would not be...

The supposed "FREE WILL" of man, is that which is UNBIBLICAL...  Man has CHOICE, and those CHOICES are manifest, according to the WORD and DECLARATION of GOD... which IS BIBLICAL...

You and I are sinners David... because the WORD says we are... ALL are sinners, even those who are yet to be born... because the WORD says they are...  We ARE what the WORD ...SAYS we ARE...

WE do not dictate to the WORD what we ARE, by making reportable (bad choice) misbehaviors along the course of history... it dictates to US what we ARE... because that HISTORY has already been DECLARED by GOD... And we follow the course of that DECLARATION... believe what you will...

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PMLet me give you one clear example from the Bible, which you have already referred to:

"Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." (Luke 22:42)

Jesus Christ uttered these words as a Man, from his lowly human perspective and not from his heavenly Godly perspective. He knew what it was to be a man with human feelings and to battle against the pains and temptations of the flesh.  

Did Jesus Christ have a will? YES, of course, the scripture says so.

Did Jesus Christ utter these words, willingly? YES, absolutely.

Did Jesus Christ willingly and freely bring His will in line with the Father's will.  YES, of course He did.

I do not argue this... but you must consider David... that JESUS Himself stated that he did NOTHING ...of Himself... rather... what the FATHER said... that DID He DO and SAY...  

What He in fact, DID (remember He DID NOTHING of Himself) ...in submission was DONE by the power of GOD within Him, not the "WILL" of the FLESH (in bondage to itself) which desired to DO, otherwise...

It was the FLESH which objected to the CUP... not the SPIRIT of GOD within Him... and the FLESH is where TEMPTATION emerges (which entailed his desire for the Cup to pass), and if submitted to, brings forth SIN... JESUS did NOT submit to the "WILL" of His flesh...

JESUS' "will of the flesh" was present with Him, for He was TEMPTED in all points as are we (Heb 4:15)... GOD cannot be TEMPTED...  :dontknow:  So the words which proceeded from Him in the garden concerning the cup passing were NOT of GOD, but of His fleshly or manly person...

It is the WILL of GOD which led Him and empowered Him to overcome (as it also does within us), that DENIED the choice of the FLESH to sidestep the coming torment, and CHRIST KILLED His "natural or fleshly WILL" which is in OPPOSITION of the WILL of YHVH... by the WORDS of His own tongue, ...which were EMPOWERED by GOD...

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PMFor anyone to suggest that Jesus Christ did not have freewill is false and unbiblical. If Jesus Christ did not have freewill, then he was compelled or programmed to utter these words. This would negate the work of the cross completely.

Says you... falsely, I might add...

Please...  :mshock:  CHRIST came not to do HIS WILL, but the WILL of Him that SENT HIM...

If He was therefore, not doing HIS WILL, then He was following the AGENDA of YHVH...  

If He was following the agenda of YHVH... then His human "will" was NOT being followed...

How do you overcome David?  Is it YOUR WILL which deters SIN in your life?  Or do you draw upon the WILL of GOD to gain this "power"?

And if it takes the "power and will" of GOD to overcome... then what part of "your -- free will" is found engaged?  

It is by submission to the WILL which is FREE (GOD's), and the defeating of your (imprisoned/captive) FLESHLY WILL, that SIN is detered...

QuoteYes, our salvation is 100% the work of God's sovereign will from start to finish, and every aspect of our salvation is a gift from God including repentance, faith and the gift of freewill. Yes, compared to God's will, man's will is very limited, but FREE it is.

I've already noted the contradiction in such a claim that notes LIMITATION and FREEDOM together... LIMITATION is CONFINEMENT... not FREEDOM.

QuoteLet us be clear that Universalism does not mean forced salvation and God does not force His salvation on anyone. Ultimately, everybody will be saved in this life or the next life in God's time and order. God's Spirit will draw all people from being blind in darkness into having sight in His light, so that they can understand the full work of cross. God draws only a few, His Elect, in this life, but He will draw the rest in the next life. (John 12:32, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

I agree with most of this portion of your post... with everything but "next life"... but instead of voicing that difference, suffice it to say, I'd rather not deter the subject being discussed... with the entirely different subject that it proposes....

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PMUltimately, all people will make the right freewill choice for their salvation when they see to understand the work of the cross in God's light.

This is completely UNBIBLICAL... Where does it say in the WORD, that we are SAVED by OUR "FREEWILL CHOICE"?

We do not "choose" to be saved... GOD sent CHRIST to SAVE us... and HE does ALL ASPECTS of that process...

If what you say is so... then it is YOUR "CHOICE" which saved you... not CHRIST... You demote Him to only being the factor that YOU "CHOOSE"...

Quote from: davidsulem on October 31, 2008, 09:41:32 PMGod has created us in His own image, and He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, there can be no relationship with God.

So say you...  That FREEWILL is not a subject of the Bible, negates its validity as a teaching...

Someone in this thread made an interesting note... Before "robots or machines" were even available as a consideration... what was the useable  alternative?  :laughing7:

GOD has exampled what is going on in HIS BODY in the SPIRIT... by the example He created within our own FLESHLY bodies...

The arms have no "free will"... they DO as the HEAD decides they shall... The legs GO where the HEAD decides they shall... The mouth does NOT decide what it shall eat, or speak, ...the HEAD does, ...and so on!

Which is WHY, in conclusion, ALL parts of the BODY of CHRIST... do as the HEAD decides... which is the WORD and HEART of YHVH GOD...

Might I conclude by saying that I meant no offense to you David in this or any  answer... you are welcome to see these things as you presently do... It is not my desire to change your thinking... only to give those reading our words, a different perspective, ...may GOD use or not use those words, ...as He sees fit...

Quote
Good luck bro... this thread is probably destined for 15 or 16 pages... back   ...& forth   ...& back   ...& forth  ... 

only 15 or 16 pgs Bro....wishful thinking  :Sparkletooth:

it must be the fall...

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 11:38:06 PM

Quote
Good luck bro... this thread is probably destined for 15 or 16 pages... back   ...& forth   ...& back   ...& forth  ... 

only 15 or 16 pgs Bro....wishful thinking  :Sparkletooth:

it must be the fall...

The thread about fall angels is locked Taffy  :gangel:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 11:42:22 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 11:38:06 PM

Quote
Good luck bro... this thread is probably destined for 15 or 16 pages... back   ...& forth   ...& back   ...& forth  ... 

only 15 or 16 pgs Bro....wishful thinking  :Sparkletooth:

it must be the fall...

The thread about fall angels is locked Taffy  :gangel:

I thought I re opened it WW :happy3:

Stay around these parts WW and it can get like Ground hog day.....

:icon_flower:

Taffy,

Sorta died with no posts in a few days.
Perhaps I should make a post about fallen angels that  always existed with a free will?

Good idea or would you rather have I open another drink. :Party:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 12:06:12 AM
Taffy,

Sorta died with no posts in a few days.
Perhaps I should make a post about fallen angels that  always existed with a free will?

Good idea or would you rather have I open another drink. :Party:

All thread come to a   Temp close matey, until of course they are renewed,,,

but for now

(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/nourriture/boisson/boiss001.gif)

As long as nobody crosses the line in saying that anybody's talking trash because they're full of... beep! then I don't care if this thread turns into 750 pages.  It's when somebody gets all heated and needs to go sit on the (http://martincisneros.freeforums.org/files/martincisneros/smilies/toilet.gif) but doesn't and decides to take it out on someone on a thread on these boards that I have a problem with it.  Seems to me that the more free that our will is, then the higher degree of God's Sovereignty is at work to finally reclaim every life.  But if everyone is already on puppet strings, then it's less effort and less wisdom on God's part to finally bring everyone in.  All He'd have to do is yank all of the dog chains and get the dogs into the house on the New Earth or beyond.  To me, the more of a chess game it winds up being between God and the fallen versions of His image, then the greater glory and the greater contentment for Himself and for all when the last rascal has been checkmated.  To me, the more free will that's involved, then the more active God's plan would necessarily have to be -- though I'm not implying that God's reacting since all of the promises, judgments, prizes, and every drop of Blood for the successful transfusion was prepared ages ago.

Has anyone thought that through?  That the less free will, which would mean the less conscious that each of us were, then God's plan would seem to involve less than Him simply arranging the bodies and talking heads as He wishes.  The portraits of Him in Scripture as a warrior seem less dynamic and less meaningful and the wisdom He'd have to share out of all of this would seem less meaningful.  After all, how much suffering is there if free will is virtually nonexistent?  Did God personally dress any of you in physical clothing this morning?  Animals seem to have free will.  Walk out into a field and slap a bull with everything you've got and when he comes after you it's not going to be a matter of instinct alone.  It'll be because you really angered him and he's made up his mind and decided with his own free will that you're going to be mashed, stomped, kicked, and hit until you're nothing more than grease and minced meat!  Which brings me to another question or two:

Is all of the violence in the world being orchestrated by God?  What about the shootings, the thefts, the sexual deviancy, the false religions, the false politicians, the mental and bodily torture, the trafficing in millions of human slaves, the blasphemies, the scalding and slowly dismembering abortions, the twisting of God's Words, etc.??

God neither orchestrates it, nor uses it.  He uses His Word, His Faith, His Blood, and His Anointing to get everything done.  And in saying this, I'm not negating the evil spoken of in Isaiah that God created in judging Israel with the events leading up to the babylonian captivity, and neither am I attempting to take away from the Scriptures that talk about the redemptive events of Jesus' life, glorification, sufferings, and resurrection as having been 100% orchestrated by God.  But to me, it doesn't follow from that that all of the evils in the world are being orchestrated by God.  Since Jesus is the Saviour, it would just follow that the events that are ongoing in Jesus' life are continually being orchestrated by God in order to restore the whole Creation to Himself.  James chapter 1 says not to say that God tempts any man with temptations, testings, and trials, but each one that's lead astray and away are being messed with by their own unruly desires; undisciplined mind, emotions, and mouth; and by one's own pride which God resists but gives grace to the humble. 

St. Paul said that God absolutely always provides the way of escape in a way that you may be able to bare it and get away from what's about to tempt you out of your mind.  If the way of escape is always orchestrated by God, yet the way is not always taken by man, then how could there not be free will?  The Bible says that God provides the way of escape, and St. Paul's strong language would imply that it's always there and that there's no excuse for not taking it, yet people all of the time don't rightly discern the Bread and the Cup and by failing to judge themselves by rightly discerning His sufferings in their behalf, then they're not chastened by the Lord in those situations and wind up being judged with the world.

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 11:18:37 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2008, 11:09:42 PM

Quote from: PneumaThat is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

Molly , for sure, I no need to answer for Scott...

but you might find the answer to be!""""""""""""""""no""""""""""""""""""""""".

The flesh, which is the HEART and Mind , our soul,..DIES,...has Nothing to do with the Mortal BODY...its an error many make...
Alas Many, combine the Flesh to be that of the BODY..tis NOT.

To be Born again, is to first  die to self, MIND \ HEART our soul, so we be renewed with a Right mind, The Mind of Christ and BORN ANEW...


I dont know how many times I state this, I sound like a Broken Record....His Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

therefore we are No longer carnal Minded, which Is death , we are SPIRIT, LIFE born anew In HIM...

gee, sis, poor paul, his head must have hurt Kiddo...
:icon_flower:

QuoteHis Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

That's a beautiful way to put it, his flesh never saw corruption--that was his own.  So it's a pure place to live in this world.

The seed which is sown in corruption is Christ.

The seed has to die--and we die with it--



Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.


1 Cor 15
A seed must die before it can sprout from the ground.


It is sown in the corruption [of our ground] and raised in the incorruption of his flesh.


1 Cor 15
37Wheat seeds and all other seeds look different from the sprouts that come up. 38This is because God gives everything the kind of body he wants it to have.


Like you said, He did not allow his holy one to see corruption.

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


His uncorrupted, incorruptible flesh becomes our body--

raised in honor, raised in glory--before the throne of God.


19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

--Hebrews 10

(Isaiah 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.

In order for man to have free will he would have to know the future. We can not know what the next second will bring, so how can we determine anything?

We forget what we are sometimes folks. We are dirt, which God took and put a brain and all of our components into. We had nothing to do with acquirng or maintaining any part of our bodies. We can try as hard as we can to keep our bodies working but eventually our bodies will shut down. God gave us a mouth to speak, ears to hear, eyes to see, but he can close any one of them at any time and there is not a thing our will can do to stop it. Where did the first word originate from? Why do we hear, see, feel, think? Can you say one of these is done by our free will? If you can, then we certainly do have free will, if not, folks, it is out the window.  

We claim to be able to choose this or that but where did you get the ability to choose anything and why? I had a man say to me one time that God didn't care if he chose to paint his house red. I ask him why he liked red. He didn't know. You see, with all things, it always has to go straight back to the original beginning, which is God.  

Willie, just wanted to say, I really enjoy your posts about "free will". They remind me that God is the potter and I am the clay.

CHB

Christ has free will.

Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

(John 5:30) I can of mine own self DO NOTHING. (Verse 19) The Son can DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

Jesus said he could do nothing of himself and neither can we.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2008, 06:22:14 AM

(John 5:30) I can of mine own self DO NOTHING. (Verse 19) The Son can DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

Jesus said he could do nothing of himself and neither can we.

CHB

Romans 11: 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

I believe God allows us/requires us to make choices within certain parameters as He sets them.  Sometimes I make the wrong choices within those parameters, at times grieveously so, and I am then accountable and responsible for my sin.  However, to use an "old-timey" term, "God is in the savin' biniz", and He even takes my failures and uses them for my (eventual) good and for His glory...."all things work together for good..."    I don't call that free will, it seems more of a responsibility to make certain choices, again, within certain parameters, and then with certain consequences.  But ultimately, God directs our steps.

Proverbs 20:24   Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? 
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart devises his way: but the LORD directs his steps.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will? 6 to the praise of his glorious grace....

Thank God for His mercy "to this clump of dirt".  God's blessing, James.

Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2008, 03:36:37 AM
In order for man to have free will he would have to know the future. We can not know what the next second will bring, so how can we determine anything?

Perhaps this is where the argument/confusion has been.  The measure of free will that we have is a measure of self motivation rather than self determination.  It's not the same thing as sowing and reaping which is determining our external circumstances by the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God and doing what God says when God says to do it, often in the giving realm while expecting a harvest of righteousness in the areas that the Word of God has told us to call them forth for our spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life.  Again, the measure of free will that we have is a measure of self motivation, but this is entirely different from walking the Covenants of the Scriptures out by faith between the "Amen" and the "There it is."  Entirely different things and it's sounding like this is where all of the confusion has been around here on this subject.

Here is a short article about free will by Mike Vinson that I thought was really good.

CHB

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brothers,


I've been meditating on 'after the council of his own will' and I have a couple of questions about some of the extremly incidental things that happen in life. I was getting in my car, and I dropped my keys; bent over, picked them up, unlocked the door then got in the car. Did God will that to happen? Why? I understand it's because God made gravity, but I can't understand how or why he willed me to drop the soap in the shower. I agree with all your biblical enlightenment, but I'm stuck on this petty thought.


Thanks Guys,
M____
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Good morning M____,

Thank you for your question.


Just so you know, I too, had the very same question you have here when I first started considering the extent of God's sovereignty. I had been taught that God was sovereign over the outcome of all things but that we are all like a dog on a leash. God has us under His control but He doesn't bother with whether we decide to go to the left to visit another dog or go to the right to do some other business.



I remember a minister teaching on this subject once said "My sister-in-law was canning peaches yesterday, and she dropped a quart of peaches on her foot and broke her toe. I do not think that God had that all planned out from before the foundation of the world!" He was very emphatic about God not being sovereign over all the petty details of every day life.



When I heard that sermon, I agreed with that point. It seemed ridiculous to me that God would even bother to involve Himself with such menial details. He's God, so surely God would delegate the concerns for such details to someone else, someone like me. But then I would never choose to drop a quart of peaches on my foot and break my toe, or for that matter I wouldn't even choose to drop my keys.



To use your words, this is indeed all very "petty." So really all we need to know is what the Bible teaches us about God's concern with petty details. If you read that entire paper, After The Counsel of His Own Will, then you know that God does indeed delegate spirits to visit the prophet Daniel to let Daniel know that the kingdom of Babylon will one day be replaced by another kingdom. But it is also God who sent Satan to try Job and an evil spirit to trouble King Saul, and a lying spirit to put lies in the mouths of all of King Ahab's prophets. You and I might think that those are pretty significant things and therefore worthy of God's valuable attention, but surely He doesn't even care whether you drop your keys, the preacher's sister-in-law drops a quart of peaches on her foot or I bump my head on a pipe while doing my construction work.



What do the scriptures teach about such petty details. Would either of us dare to say that an omniscient God didn't know that any of those things was going to happen? I for one would not be willing to make such a presumptuous statement. I am convinced that God truly is all knowing down to the least detail and that working "all things" means all things.



But I was not always of such a mind set. Ten or twelve years ago my middle son, Dallas, who is now in his mid thirties, came to me and told me that he had been reading a book on the study of fractals. Fractals is just another word for 'chaos.' Dallas informed me that according to what he had learned from this science book on the study of fractals, that in reality, everything that appears to us to be chaotic, is in reality confined within the laws of nature and in particular the law that states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That is a law of nature and of science which cannot be broken. Dallas's conclusion from reading that totally secular book, was that God is therefore in complete and total control of even the smallest details of life. It is not something that taxes His mind or overloads God's hard drive. It is just simply true. It is a law of science and nature. It is God ordained.



But it took two whole years and many lively discussions around the table before I came to agree with my son on that subject. The beast within me wanted to at least be able to decide whether I went to the right to meet another person or went to the left to keep from meeting that person. Surely I was sovereign over the smallest details in my life! Surely God was not the cause of every single little detail!



What changed my mind? What changed my mind was what the word of God teaches about God's concerns for the smallest of matters. Of course what really changed my mind was Christ in me, but Christ in me is His word in me, and this is what that Word teaches about the smallest of details. These are the words of Christ himself:

Matt 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Now that is pretty "petty" information. But, lest we think that we have misunderstood His point our Lord continues:

Matt 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matt 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

There it is; "all of the hairs of your head" and all of the hairs of my head and all of the hairs of every single person who has ever lived are "all numbered." That is how aware of "petty details" is our God. Are we to believe that God concerns Himself with the number of the hairs on our heads, but not with the smallest thoughts in our minds? How utterly foolish. Every physical detail of scripture is telling us something about the thoughts of our minds. Every word of scripture is concerned with the spirit behind those words. The "hairs of your head" represent the thought that caused you to drop your keys in the first place, and then the thought that told you to pick the keys up. That is why "the hairs of your head" were used as an example, to let us know that there is no matter which is too small for our God's attention to detail.



The truth is that there are no "really important matters" without all the "petty details" which must be in place to sustain and support all of those 'really important matters.' It's like being a king. There would be no king without the king's subjects and all of the petty details of the lives of the king's subjects.


Here is an old saying which is based upon the very Biblical subject we have been discussing:


For want of a nail - That large consequences may follow from inattention to small details, usually something similar to the following: "For want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe the horse was lost, for want of a horse the general was lost, for want of a general the battle was lost, for want of a battle the war was lost, for want of a war the empire was lost — an empire lost for the want of a nail!"



"Large consequences may follow from inattention to small details." But our God has "every hair on our heads numbered" so we really do not need to worry about anything. When we are given the faith to accept His total sovereignty and not just the partial sovereignty of Babylon, along with the faith to believe that comes "the peace that passes all understanding."


I will let the apostle Paul close for me:

Php 4:6  Don't fret or worry. Instead of worrying, pray. Let petitions and praises shape your worries into prayers, letting God know your concerns.
Php 4:7  Before you know it, a sense of God's wholeness, everything coming together for good, will come and settle you down. It's wonderful what happens when Christ displaces worry at the center of your life . (ASV)

Or as the king James Version puts it:

Php 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I have given you the Biblical answer to your question. I hope and pray that the Lord will give you the faith to receive His Words on this subject.

Your brother in Christ.

Mike

You can't have obedience without free will.  Obedience is meaningless without free will.


Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 07:54:26 AM
You can't have obedience without free will.  Obedience is meaningless without free will.


Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not arguing here, posing the point behind what your saying.

We can argue over definitions and what that does is place the discussion in a theoretical light.  This definition, that definition, etc etc, not forced, free to etc etc.


How does God Save all mankind if mankind is free to say no to him and it appears that man does do that quite regularly?

If obedience is only meaningful through freewill, how does all mankind eventually become obedient?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 08:05:19 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 07:54:26 AM
You can't have obedience without free will.  Obedience is meaningless without free will.


Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not arguing here, posing the point behind what your saying.

We can argue over definitions and what that does is place the discussion in a theoretical light.  This definition, that definition, etc etc, not forced, free to etc etc.


How does God Save all mankind if mankind is free to say no to him and it appears that man does do that quite regularly?

If obedience is only meaningful through freewill, how does all mankind eventually become obedient?

well, now you have an agenda.  But if your agenda requires you to say that Christ has no free will, and therefore, was not really obedient--maybe it's time to rethink.

Romans 8
21 for that creature [for and that creature] shall be delivered from servage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 08:05:19 AM
How does God Save all mankind if mankind is free to say no to him and it appears that man does do that quite regularly?

If obedience is only meaningful through freewill, how does all mankind eventually become obedient?

Free will doesn't keep God from having a free will.  It's the Arminian theologians that often argue, and popularize the argument, that man's free will implies a demension of sovereignty that God won't touch -- which is found absolutely nowhere in Scripture.  The Bible is filled to overflowing with God getting His way no matter what, and no matter how artistic He has to become in His art of persuasion.  Thomas, Saul of Tarsus, the disciples on the road to Emmaus, and Elymas the sorcerer in the book of Acts were all condemned for not believing the Gospel, but Christ Jesus persuaded them to believe: one with visual evidence, two with blindness, and others by being called stupid fools by a Voice that sounds like the rushing of a mighty river that marred their unbelief forever and transformed them into evangelists, prophets, and teachers.  Man's free will throughout the Scriptures of both Old and New Testament has frequently run into the brick wall of God's judgment.  God's judgment is His nonnegotiable stand on His will. 

Besides, Biblically, the salvation or eternal rejection of Adam and Eve is the only thing to be proven to make a case for either ET or UR.  Many UR folks don't like the doctrine of "Original Sin," but I think it's a beautiful doctrine because when properly presented it CRAMS UR down the throat of those that believe in it because of the "MUCH MORE" of what Christ Jesus has accomplished.  It's simply a version of the Scriptural doctrine of the one and the many equalling the all, or the one standing for the many bringing this or that upon all.  It's in Isaiah, Romans, Hebrews and various other places -- whatever anyone chooses to call it.  The Scriptures teach that as one man was the damnation of us all, whether that entails oblivion or eternal torment, the obedient death of another man has brought righteousness to all, whether that means temporary torment or instantaneous glorification upon all at their moment of death or the resurrection. 

I think that people get confused between "Inherited Righteousness" and "Inheriting the Kingdom" because though the Bible implies both it's only through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and growing in His grace that we come to understand both.  Inheriting the Kingdom is over in the area of what 2Corinthians chapter 9 describes as the multiplied fruits of your righteousness [implicitly from God in Christ].  Romans calls righteousness a free gift and the measure of the abundance of His grace, but "inheriting the Kingdom" which is the distinguishing of the haves from the have nots in the Kingdom is something you strive to enter into because the gate is narrow to reigning in life through Christ Jesus. 

It's through the Bread and Cup which is too often, too easily set aside as foolishness by Christians.  The Bread envisions His broken body, broken for you with every artery burst and Blood covering you and the whole sacrifice.  While the Cup IS THE NEW COVENANT dipped in that holy Blood.  It becomes the realization that all of the Blood that I'm seeing in my struggles isn't mine.  It's my High Priest's that protects me, gives me the hidden manna of His flesh, and dines with me in the presence of my enemies causing me to fear no evil because He's with me protecting me with His rod and staff as we celebrate the anointing of oil that He's lavishing on me and causing me to dwell in the many mansions of His Father forever.  Life is no longer about doing, but about being at the feet of the Shepherd, like my cat is at my feet right now in total contentment purring away.  When every care is sufficiently cast upon Him through our free will, He gives us the nations for our inheritance. 

If there is no free will, then there are no cares of this life.  The cares of this life are what we disobey Him in taking upon ourselves.  And if there is no free will, then there is no casting the whole of our cares upon Him so that He can exalt us because of our humility before the Bread and the Cup and to follow Him wherever He goes.  If there is no free will, then there is no longer any being blessed with faithful Abraham, according to Galatians 3, and we're no longer heirs of the world together with him.  Because that is entered into by relating to Christ Jesus the way that Abraham related to Melchezedec.  Melchezedec didn't force the Bread and Cup down Abraham's throat.  The salvation of the world isn't based upon the belief of absolutely every individual in the world in Christ -- although they're all destined to, and every knee will bow as every tongue exuberantly, thunderously praises Him that Jesus Christ is Lord. 

The salvation of the world is based upon the keeping of the Bread and Cup between God and the believer because the promise of being heir of the world and of the heathen belongs to those who have the faith of Abraham.  But every individual on the planet isn't required to express the faith of Abraham before God will pour out His Holy Spirit IN FULLNESS upon ALL flesh and remove the veil that's covered all of the people, according to Isaiah, Joel, various Psalms, and various New Testament Apostles and Prophets.  If necessary, Christ will drag all of mankind to Himself solely on the belief of Abraham that He would.  But we're offered participation in the divine nature, according to 2Peter 1, Romans, Ephesians, and various other passages and books of the Bible.  We choose to repent, according to Acts 17, Acts 20, 1Peter 1, and Revelation 7, but He chooses the preordained paths for us to walk and the intensity of the riches of His grace that we'll experience according to Ephesians 2.

Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2008, 07:47:45 AM
I remember a minister teaching on this subject once said "My sister-in-law was canning peaches yesterday, and she dropped a quart of peaches on her foot and broke her toe. I do not think that God had that all planned out from before the foundation of the world!" He was very emphatic about God not being sovereign over all the petty details of every day life.

---

When I heard that sermon, I agreed with that point. It seemed ridiculous to me that God would even bother to involve Himself with such menial details.

That's when we look as a human that's limited in every aspect. But for God even the whole salvation process is a petty thing. His possibilities are so vast (unlimited) that compared to that everything is a petty thing.
We delegate petty things, or ignore then. Why? Often because we can't handle more than a handful of things at the same time. Father hasn't that limitation. Basicly I'm saying we just can't make the claim 'to petty for God'
The writer argues it's a petty thing. I can just as well argue it is a test. Do you swear when you drop your keys? Do you get irritated and get nasty at innocent bystanders that have nothing to do with you dropping your keys (shifting blame)

QuoteThat is a law of nature and of science which cannot be broken. Dallas's conclusion from reading that totally secular book, was that God is therefore in complete and total control of even the smallest details of life.

An unproveble claim. God can indeed control every detail like dropping your keys. Those keys drop down not up due to the laws of nature. But that doesn't prove God controled the dropping of the keys. He created the laws of nature and stricktly speaking he can take a nap and the laws of nature keep working.
Just like the mechanics that made your car don't have to be present every inch you drive.

QuoteSurely God was not the cause of every single little detail!

A claim that is just that a claim until you can back it up with scripture or holy inspiration.

QuoteMatt 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Matt 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matt 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

That indeed point to God taking notice of detail.
The point is what does God do with all that information? To me it mostly is some warning/comforting words that nothing escapes the vast knowledge of God. But that in itself doesn't prove He uses that knowledge for contant control.



Although I don't fully agree still a very nice article :thumbsup:

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 08:49:58 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 08:43:44 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 08:35:39 PM
im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

I dug up school pic of you Taffman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/TinFoilHat002.jpg/800px-TinFoilHat002.jpg

yas certifiable WW,,,,..I got hair, but , never the less, send me one of those hats, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...

That was before the radiation leak in yer hat I assume  :laughing7:

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2008, 11:09:42 PM

Quote from: PneumaThat is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

No,

Taffy gave you an answer that lines up with what I am talking about sis.

QuoteFree will doesn't keep God from having a free will.

I agree with you  Martincisneros, and with your understanding of man's freewill.

God has a freewill, and since we are created  in the image of God means that we also have freewill. It is as simple as that.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 01, 2008, 12:19:44 AM
As long as nobody crosses the line in saying that anybody's talking trash because they're full of... beep! then I don't care if this thread turns into 750 pages.  It's when somebody gets all heated and needs to go sit on the (http://martincisneros.freeforums.org/files/martincisneros/smilies/toilet.gif) but doesn't and decides to take it out on someone on a thread on these boards that I have a problem with it.  Seems to me that the more free that our will is, then the higher degree of God's Sovereignty is at work to finally reclaim every life.  But if everyone is already on puppet strings, then it's less effort and less wisdom on God's part to finally bring everyone in.  All He'd have to do is yank all of the dog chains and get the dogs into the house on the New Earth or beyond.  To me, the more of a chess game it winds up being between God and the fallen versions of His image, then the greater glory and the greater contentment for Himself and for all when the last rascal has been checkmated.  To me, the more free will that's involved, then the more active God's plan would necessarily have to be -- though I'm not implying that God's reacting since all of the promises, judgments, prizes, and every drop of Blood for the successful transfusion was prepared ages ago.

Has anyone thought that through?  That the less free will, which would mean the less conscious that each of us were, then God's plan would seem to involve less than Him simply arranging the bodies and talking heads as He wishes.  The portraits of Him in Scripture as a warrior seem less dynamic and less meaningful and the wisdom He'd have to share out of all of this would seem less meaningful.  After all, how much suffering is there if free will is virtually nonexistent?  Did God personally dress any of you in physical clothing this morning?  Animals seem to have free will.  Walk out into a field and slap a bull with everything you've got and when he comes after you it's not going to be a matter of instinct alone.  It'll be because you really angered him and he's made up his mind and decided with his own free will that you're going to be mashed, stomped, kicked, and hit until you're nothing more than grease and minced meat!  Which brings me to another question or two:

Is all of the violence in the world being orchestrated by God?  What about the shootings, the thefts, the sexual deviancy, the false religions, the false politicians, the mental and bodily torture, the trafficing in millions of human slaves, the blasphemies, the scalding and slowly dismembering abortions, the twisting of God's Words, etc.??

God neither orchestrates it, nor uses it.  He uses His Word, His Faith, His Blood, and His Anointing to get everything done.  And in saying this, I'm not negating the evil spoken of in Isaiah that God created in judging Israel with the events leading up to the babylonian captivity, and neither am I attempting to take away from the Scriptures that talk about the redemptive events of Jesus' life, glorification, sufferings, and resurrection as having been 100% orchestrated by God.  But to me, it doesn't follow from that that all of the evils in the world are being orchestrated by God.  Since Jesus is the Saviour, it would just follow that the events that are ongoing in Jesus' life are continually being orchestrated by God in order to restore the whole Creation to Himself.  James chapter 1 says not to say that God tempts any man with temptations, testings, and trials, but each one that's lead astray and away are being messed with by their own unruly desires; undisciplined mind, emotions, and mouth; and by one's own pride which God resists but gives grace to the humble. 

St. Paul said that God absolutely always provides the way of escape in a way that you may be able to bare it and get away from what's about to tempt you out of your mind.  If the way of escape is always orchestrated by God, yet the way is not always taken by man, then how could there not be free will?  The Bible says that God provides the way of escape, and St. Paul's strong language would imply that it's always there and that there's no excuse for not taking it, yet people all of the time don't rightly discern the Bread and the Cup and by failing to judge themselves by rightly discerning His sufferings in their behalf, then they're not chastened by the Lord in those situations and wind up being judged with the world.

Martin again I have to say Amen, I to see man having a free will as enhancing Gods soverignty.

QuoteThey remind me that God is the potter and I am the clay.

Hi ya sis, tis true God is the potter and we are the clay, but did you know clay has a will of its own and always trys to return to it clay form?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 11:21:14 AM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 08:49:58 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 08:43:44 PM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 08:35:39 PM
im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

I dug up school pic of you Taffman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/TinFoilHat002.jpg/800px-TinFoilHat002.jpg

yas certifiable WW,,,,..I got hair, but , never the less, send me one of those hats, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...

That was before the radiation leak in yer hat I assume  :laughing7:

OK! OK! Ya crazy Dutchman...heres a recent pic.....v














(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/perso3d/3d182.gif)

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 08:29:48 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 08:05:19 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 07:54:26 AM
You can't have obedience without free will.  Obedience is meaningless without free will.


Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not arguing here, posing the point behind what your saying.

We can argue over definitions and what that does is place the discussion in a theoretical light.  This definition, that definition, etc etc, not forced, free to etc etc.


How does God Save all mankind if mankind is free to say no to him and it appears that man does do that quite regularly?

If obedience is only meaningful through freewill, how does all mankind eventually become obedient?

well, now you have an agenda.  But if your agenda requires you to say that Christ has no free will, and therefore, was not really obedient--maybe it's time to rethink.

Romans 8
21 for that creature [for and that creature] shall be delivered from servage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.

Yes, I have an agenda Molly, it's called asking people to answer questions.   :omg:


How is the creature delivered if it does not want to be?

Quote from: PaulYes, I have an agenda Molly, it's called asking people to answer questions.   


How is the creature delivered if it does not want to be?

Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 03:25:24 PM
Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

I would like to verify if I understand that verse correctly.

The stone is Jesus and/or believing in Father/Son/HS
When you fall (turn to God) your sinful body will be broken. Meaning converted to something good.
If you don't turn to God in this life the conversion process will not only break your bones (figure of speech) but completly grind them to powder.
Meaning accepting salvation now is a far better choice than having it hammered in you thick skull in the afterlife.

Correct?

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 03:25:24 PM

Quote from: PaulYes, I have an agenda Molly, it's called asking people to answer questions.   


How is the creature delivered if it does not want to be?

Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

This an explanation of free will in what way?

What free will concerning our life and spirituality to me is this.



God is a purifying spiritual fire that my misunderstanding fears, I am free to throw gasoline on that fire all I want,  I am free to call the fire department to put it out, I am free to go run and hide but none of that freedom will prevent me from being engulfed in the flames.


If I am in a burning building I am free to run out,  I am free to stay where I am at,  it may not appear to be freedom, but in reality I am free within the circumstances I am in.  Regaurdless of how few options there is, there is an amount of freedom that exists.

A fireman comes in and I am free to jump in his arms or I am free to run away,  but where will I run?  Confusion and doubt and fear are the circumstances,  but I am free to operate within those circumstances.   The fireman has a Job and thats to save people.

I am FREE to fight the fireman,  but I can only win the fight, if I am more powerful than the fireman, in human terms, that may be possible, in spiritual terms, God is the fireman and I am not more powerful yet I am still free to fight him.

When God drags me out of the burning building I am free to hate God for dragging me out.   (and you know what????  Sometime I do feel my hate at God for dragging me out of places)

However........   God is going to keep dragging me out of the building till one day my FREE WILL TIRES OF FIGHTING.

In other words,  God shapes and fires us till we retain the shape, then we will understand the thing of beauty we have become.

QuoteIn other words,  God shapes and fires us till we retain the shape, then we will understand the thing of beauty we have become.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 03:42:48 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 03:25:24 PM

Quote from: PaulYes, I have an agenda Molly, it's called asking people to answer questions.   


How is the creature delivered if it does not want to be?

Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

This an explanation of free will in what way?

You have a choice, Life or Death.  Choose life.

QuoteIn other words,  God shapes and fires us till we retain the shape, then we will understand the thing of beauty we have become.

Beautiful quoute for your 666th post Paul  :thumbsup:

Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 04:35:50 PM
Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

I agree.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 04:35:50 PM
Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 04:50:16 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 04:35:50 PM
Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I agree with that verse.   The problem in these threads and this issue of free will is it is not as simple as saying we are free if we are not free to escape Gods plan for our eternal destiny.

The reason I ask the questions is if the above is true can you then say we have the free will to avoid being reconciled to God?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 09:47:12 AM

Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2008, 07:47:45 AM
I remember a minister teaching on this subject once said "My sister-in-law was canning peaches yesterday, and she dropped a quart of peaches on her foot and broke her toe. I do not think that God had that all planned out from before the foundation of the world!" He was very emphatic about God not being sovereign over all the petty details of every day life.

---

When I heard that sermon, I agreed with that point. It seemed ridiculous to me that God would even bother to involve Himself with such menial details.

That's when we look as a human that's limited in every aspect. But for God even the whole salvation process is a petty thing. His possibilities are so vast (unlimited) that compared to that everything is a petty thing.
We delegate petty things, or ignore then. Why? Often because we can't handle more than a handful of things at the same time. Father hasn't that limitation. Basicly I'm saying we just can't make the claim 'to petty for God'
The writer argues it's a petty thing. I can just as well argue it is a test. Do you swear when you drop your keys? Do you get irritated and get nasty at innocent bystanders that have nothing to do with you dropping your keys (shifting blame)

QuoteThat is a law of nature and of science which cannot be broken. Dallas's conclusion from reading that totally secular book, was that God is therefore in complete and total control of even the smallest details of life.

An unproveble claim. God can indeed control every detail like dropping your keys. Those keys drop down not up due to the laws of nature. But that doesn't prove God controled the dropping of the keys. He created the laws of nature and stricktly speaking he can take a nap and the laws of nature keep working.
Just like the mechanics that made your car don't have to be present every inch you drive.

QuoteSurely God was not the cause of every single little detail!

A claim that is just that a claim until you can back it up with scripture or holy inspiration.

QuoteMatt 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Matt 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matt 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

That indeed point to God taking notice of detail.
The point is what does God do with all that information? To me it mostly is some warning/comforting words that nothing escapes the vast knowledge of God. But that in itself doesn't prove He uses that knowledge for contant control.



Although I don't fully agree still a very nice article :thumbsup:

WhiteWings,

I think you completely misunderstood this article. Mike was telling how he was brought to the understanding that God was in control of the tiniest details.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on November 01, 2008, 05:05:30 PM
WhiteWings,

I think you completely misunderstood this article. Mike was telling how he was brought to the understanding that God was in control of the tiniest details.

CHB,

I think I understood the article quite well.
I just don't (fully) agree. His logic can be correct but he didn't show enough proof to backup his claims.
So I'm not say that he is right or wrong; I'm saying with the information presented I can only say 'possibly correct'

:teaching:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 08:38:24 PM
The red part can be base for an endless discussing.
I can easily learn you some thing. The question is you will accept it? If yes/no why?

I'll take an extreme case of learnin' to make my point.  A child might put his hand into a fire.  Why?  Becuase he is curious.  Did he choose to put his hand in the fire?  Sure.   Did he choose to be curious?  No, that was pre-wired.

Once he put's his hand in the fire, can he help but learn that it's hurts like crazy?  No way.  Can he still chose to do it again?  Sure, but after a few tries he will be convinced that the awful pain comes every time.  Every child will learn to quit doing it, unless there is something wrong with his noggin.

Whether I will accept your learnin' depends on how convincing your argument or demonstration is.  God's convincin' is probably pretty strong. ;)

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. 11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.

It doesn't say that when God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world might learn righteousness.... if only their free=wills are sufficiently not-too-unrighteous to begin with.  It does not depend on man's will.  There is none good, none seeking God!

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 04:54:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 04:50:16 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 04:35:50 PM
Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I agree with that verse.   The problem in these threads and this issue of free will is it is not as simple as saying we are free if we are not free to escape Gods plan for our eternal destiny.

The reason I ask the questions is if the above is true can you then say we have the free will to avoid being reconciled to God?

I've seen this response to UR a lot . .this idea that we have a free will and as such, we have the ability to choose heaven or hell.  How does Phillipians fit in with the free will theory?

Phillipians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV

13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. New Living Translation

Be energetic in your life of salvation, reverent and sensitive before God. That energy is God's energy, an energy deep within you, God himself willing and working at what will give him the most pleasure.  Message Translation

Where is the Scriptural reference supporting that man has a free will?  It must be under a term other than "free will" because I looked, there's no references matching that phrase.

If God is "in" me manifesting his will "through" me, how can I still claim that I have a "free" will of my own?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 04:09:04 PMHowever........   God is going to keep dragging me out of the building till one day my FREE WILL TIRES OF FIGHTING.

Good stuff Paul!

Deuteronomy 32:36 The Lord will judge his people and have compassion on his servants when he sees their strength is gone and no one is left, slave or free. 37 He will say: "Now where are their gods, the rock they took refuge in"

bobf,

I'm sure God has control of many things.
If he desires I can control every atom in the universe.
I'm sure He at times forces/guides our will to certain actions. We will just think it was our own choice.
Basicly I say/accept God can choose to have  0-100% control.
I think most agree His control is >0%
But is it 100%?
I simply do not know. I can't find any solid proof for it.
I could have chosen to ignore your post.
I could have chosen to make it a short "don't agree"
I could have....

To me it really 100% sure feels I wrote this message out of free will (ignoring teh fact that I find it polite to answer posts direct to me)
But how can I know God didn't put all the words I typed into my mind making?
I just can't proof such things.

Quote from: Nathan on November 01, 2008, 06:02:14 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 04:54:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 04:50:16 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 04:35:50 PM
Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I agree with that verse.   The problem in these threads and this issue of free will is it is not as simple as saying we are free if we are not free to escape Gods plan for our eternal destiny.

The reason I ask the questions is if the above is true can you then say we have the free will to avoid being reconciled to God?

I've seen this response to UR a lot . .this idea that we have a free will and as such, we have the ability to choose heaven or hell.  How does Phillipians fit in with the free will theory?

Phillipians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV

13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. New Living Translation

Be energetic in your life of salvation, reverent and sensitive before God. That energy is God's energy, an energy deep within you, God himself willing and working at what will give him the most pleasure.  Message Translation

Where is the Scriptural reference supporting that man has a free will?  It must be under a term other than "free will" because I looked, there's no references matching that phrase.

If God is "in" me manifesting his will "through" me, how can I still claim that I have a "free" will of my own?

Some translations contain the word freewill in reference to a voluntary offering.

If we are not free at all, even within the contraints of boundries, how can we be told to make a free will (voluntary) offering?

Well, James says that every good gift is from above, so if I'm giving a voluntary gift, the origin from where that desire came would also come from above, thus, manifesting the Phillippians passage in me.  Yes?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 06:26:17 PM

Quote from: Nathan on November 01, 2008, 06:02:14 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 01, 2008, 04:54:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 04:50:16 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 04:35:50 PM
Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I agree with that verse.   The problem in these threads and this issue of free will is it is not as simple as saying we are free if we are not free to escape Gods plan for our eternal destiny.

The reason I ask the questions is if the above is true can you then say we have the free will to avoid being reconciled to God?

I've seen this response to UR a lot . .this idea that we have a free will and as such, we have the ability to choose heaven or hell.  How does Phillipians fit in with the free will theory?

Phillipians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV

13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. New Living Translation

Be energetic in your life of salvation, reverent and sensitive before God. That energy is God's energy, an energy deep within you, God himself willing and working at what will give him the most pleasure.  Message Translation

Where is the Scriptural reference supporting that man has a free will?  It must be under a term other than "free will" because I looked, there's no references matching that phrase.

If God is "in" me manifesting his will "through" me, how can I still claim that I have a "free" will of my own?

Some translations contain the word freewill in reference to a voluntary offering.

If we are not free at all, even within the contraints of boundries, how can we be told to make a free will (voluntary) offering?

Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 03:08:56 AM

Quote from: Taffy on October 31, 2008, 11:18:37 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2008, 11:09:42 PM

Quote from: PneumaThat is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

Molly , for sure, I no need to answer for Scott...

but you might find the answer to be!""""""""""""""""no""""""""""""""""""""""".

The flesh, which is the HEART and Mind , our soul,..DIES,...has Nothing to do with the Mortal BODY...its an error many make...
Alas Many, combine the Flesh to be that of the BODY..tis NOT.

To be Born again, is to first  die to self, MIND \ HEART our soul, so we be renewed with a Right mind, The Mind of Christ and BORN ANEW...


I dont know how many times I state this, I sound like a Broken Record....His Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

therefore we are No longer carnal Minded, which Is death , we are SPIRIT, LIFE born anew In HIM...

gee, sis, poor paul, his head must have hurt Kiddo...
:icon_flower:

QuoteHis Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

That's a beautiful way to put it, his flesh never saw corruption--that was his own.  So it's a pure place to live in this world.

The seed which is sown in corruption is Christ.

The seed has to die--and we die with it--



Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.


1 Cor 15
A seed must die before it can sprout from the ground.


It is sown in the corruption [of our ground] and raised in the incorruption of his flesh.


1 Cor 15
37Wheat seeds and all other seeds look different from the sprouts that come up. 38This is because God gives everything the kind of body he wants it to have.


Like you said, He did not allow his holy one to see corruption.

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


His uncorrupted, incorruptible flesh becomes our body--

raised in honor, raised in glory--before the throne of God.


19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

--Hebrews 10

The carnal mind is enmity [hostility, opposition] against God.  But we have overcome the carnal mind of man.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 03:35:43 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2008, 03:25:24 PM
Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

I would like to verify if I understand that verse correctly.

The stone is Jesus and/or believing in Father/Son/HS
When you fall (turn to God) your sinful body will be broken. Meaning converted to something good.
If you don't turn to God in this life the conversion process will not only break your bones (figure of speech) but completly grind them to powder.
Meaning accepting salvation now is a far better choice than having it hammered in you thick skull in the afterlife.

Correct?

:goodpost:

 

 Hi  ya guys ,
  been reading all these posts ..........
one simple way I understand will and free will is will can mean want /desire /will   and  our desire changes as the Lords Spirit works within us  
we  want / desire will to please the Lord  and need more of Him  , and that was something I lacked big time  ,and saw in Jesus Christ / Spirit /SON OF GOD
 His desires become  the Fathers Will/desires..  we also  hunger and thirst    desire/  want after this righteousness  and wait and want for more of Him  to complete us , I know that I never  had desire /willed anything of him when   my flesh  was in the world and wanted  everything in it , I still remained empty and  it was never enough  
the Lord is all I need and finally realizing that  has  given me tremendous  rest /peace     and that is what we desire /want will for everyone  right ? is this not Gods will also  ?
  peace .. rose
that to me in a nutshell   is what it means  for me anyways

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 06:17:32 PM
bobf,

I'm sure God has control of many things.
If he desires I can control every atom in the universe.
I'm sure He at times forces/guides our will to certain actions. We will just think it was our own choice.
Basicly I say/accept God can choose to have  0-100% control.
I think most agree His control is >0%
But is it 100%?
I simply do not know. I can't find any solid proof for it.
I could have chosen to ignore your post.
I could have chosen to make it a short "don't agree"
I could have....

To me it really 100% sure feels I wrote this message out of free will (ignoring teh fact that I find it polite to answer posts direct to me)
But how can I know God didn't put all the words I typed into my mind making?
I just can't proof such things.

I think you've expressed basically what I believe as well as doubts I have about God's 100% control over every detail.  One thing though, I don't think it has to be an either/or sitiation.  100% God does not imply 0% me.  90% God does not mean 10% me.  Events can have multiple causes and so can choices.

Some verses to ponder regarding this:

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Did Paul labor?  Yes, he said he "I labored".  So Paul labored >0%.  Yet in some sense Paul said he did not labor.  So he labored 0% in that sense and only the grace of God that was with him labored.  Making it 100% grace.  Does not seem to add up to 100%.

2 Corintians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Who sent Paul's thorn in the flesh?  [1] It was a messagener of Satan.  [2] God sent it too, since only God would have "given to me...lest I should be exalted above measure".  One event, two causes, two purposes.  Buffet & humble.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

What Joseph's brother's intended for evil, God intended for good.  One action, one choice (to harm and sell Joseph or not) had two (or more) wills in operation to bring it about.

Lastly, about as many times as it says that God hardened pharoah's heart it also says that pharoah hardened his own heart.  Were these "hardenings" discrete events with God and pharoah alternately hardening pharoah's heart??  I don't think so.  I think each time God hardened pharaoah's heart that pharoah was choosing to harden his own heart.

I mean, can I not harden your heart by being rude and nasty to you?  But if I do, you are still choosing to harden your own heart too.

Quote from: bobf on November 01, 2008, 09:06:55 PM
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Did Paul labor?  Yes, he said he "I labored".  So Paul labored >0%.  Yet in some sense Paul said he did not labor.  So he labored 0% in that sense and only the grace of God that was with him labored.  Making it 100% grace.  Does not seem to add up to 100%.

Hi Bob,
Now we basicly agree there is not much more to answer. I don't fully understand the concept so I can't go into it any deeper as I did a few posts back.
I did quote a part of your post that I want to answer with some joke/lesson I once read:

A man came at heavens gate and Jesus sat at the door.
Jesus explained the man need to score a 100 points to enter Heaven. => scoring points is labor
So Jesus said tell me your good deeds and I write down the score.
Man: I went to church every week.
Jesus: Great. 3 points.
Man: I never cheated my wife.
Jesus: Nice! 1 point.
Man: I helped those in need.
Jesus: Sounds good. 2 points
The man started to sweat.
Jesus noticed it and asked why are you scared?
Well said the man I just told you all my good deeds in life and I still come 94 points short.
How can I ever enter Heaven? By the grace of God?
Jesus jumped up and shouted: 94 points !

Bit of topic but I had to share this lovely lesson  :HeartThrob:

accidental duplicate post  :mblush:  which means I only have 921 to my credit for those keeping score!  :laughing7:

willieH: How-Dee -- brother Paul!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 09:55:16 PM

Quote from: willieH on October 31, 2008, 09:50:47 PM
willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

So God ordained your disobedience, then subjects you to the shame of something that he caused?

YES... for it was HIS WILL... which was enacted... and was MY part of HIS PURPOSE in revealing to ALL His Children, the difference between G & E...  :dontknow:

JUDGMENT is NOT a bad thing... it is to be EMBRACED... for it is PART of the RECONCILIATION process of the PERFECT and ALMIGHTY YHVH GOD we worship, even though portions of that process might appear strange to us while we are yet in the FINITE viewpoint we observe from...  :Chinscratch:

Words in BLACK/brackets are obviously mine to make my point:

Rom 9:18-21  ...therefore HE hath mercy on whom ["usn's"] HE WILL and whom HE WILL, ...he HARDENTH... [The "whoms" subjected to that WILL being "usn's"]

Thou wilt say unto me:  [as you just did] Why does HE yet, FIND FAULT [hold willieH accountable for using emoticons]?  For WHO [willieH using emoticons] hath resisted HIS WILL? 

Nay but O man WHO art THOU [brother PaulH] that repliest against God?  Shall the thing formed [willieH] say unto Him that formed, "why hast THOU [YHVH] made me thus? [Making willieH either in a hardened emoticon using state, or merciful non-emoticon using state]

Hath NOT the POTTER [YHVH] power over the CLAY [willieH], of the same lump to make one unto HONOR [willieH NOT using emoticons] and another [willieH using emoticons] unto DISHONOR?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 09:42:30 PM
I did quote a part of your post that I want to answer with some joke/lesson I once read:

A man came at heavens gate and Jesus sat at the door.
Jesus explained the man need to score a 100 points to enter Heaven. => scoring points is labor
So Jesus said tell me your good deeds and I write down the score.
Man: I went to church every week.
Jesus: Great. 3 points.
Man: I never cheated my wife.
Jesus: Nice! 1 point.
Man: I helped those in need.
Jesus: Sounds good. 2 points
The man started to sweat.
Jesus noticed it and asked why are you scared?
Well said the man I just told you all my good deeds in life and I still come 94 points short.
How can I ever enter Heaven? By the grace of God?
Jesus jumped up and shouted: 94 points !

Bit of topic but I had to share this lovely lesson  :HeartThrob:

:laugh:   :goodpost:

My wife and I just had a great chuckle bro...  :ty: :Urock:

  That was a good lesson WW  :cloud9:   !  :thumbsup:

I'm glad you liked it Willie and (http://www.victorianrose.org/images/red_rose2.jpg)

It's weird I reopend and reread this trival post about 10 times since I posted it...
I don't want to minimize any of the work Father/Son/HS have done sofar, and will do in the future, but I think pretty well summarizes a lot of the UR message.
The man earned 6 points with his works and Jesus paid the remaining 94 points with His crucifixion....

Quote from: willieH on November 01, 2008, 10:24:24 PM
accidental duplicate post  :mblush:  which means I only have 921 to my credit for those keeping score!  :laughing7:

Hey  bro ,Be nice to Martin and he made  pump ya total  like his..in zillions.... :laughing7:.... :happy3: :happy3: :icon_flower:

   Yes !!it  IS SO  true ,  :grin: seesm the Law and grace have two  covenants  and promises  to it .. Taff you know this one well bro !

     a slave  owes his master   a debt for his life and good service 
But a Son   has    inherited all his Fathers goods ,
  because the are Kindred and Born into it !  :2c:

Quote from: rosered on November 01, 2008, 11:58:22 PM


   Yes !!it  IS SO  true ,  :grin: seesm the Law and grace have two  covenants  and promises  to it .. Taff you know this one well bro !

     a slave  owes his master   a debt for his life and good service 
But a Son   has    inherited all his Fathers goods ,
  because the are Kindred and Born into it !  :2c:

:icon_flower:

So, what about...

NASB Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48  This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

So does man really have free will...?

Romans 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Just what part of "not on human will" do we all not understand?

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."


Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, born anew that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Let's just look at how much in control God really is...

NET Bible Pro 20:24  The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own76 way?

NET Commentary:  73 tn Heb  "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel" ).

74 tn Heb  "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."

sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended (e.g., Gen_50:26; Pro_3:6). Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.

75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.

76 tn Heb  "his way." The referent of the third masculine singular pronoun is unclear, so the word "own" was supplied in the translation to clarify that the referent is the human individual, not the Lord.


NET Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

NET Commentary:  28 tn Grk  "in whom," as a continuation of the previous verse.

29 tn Grk  "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).


NET Jeremiah 10:23  LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny.50 It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.51

50 tn Heb  "Not to the man his way." For the nuance of "fate, destiny, or the way things turn out" for the Hebrew word "way"  see Hag_1:5; Isa_40:27  and probably Psa_49:13 (cf. KBL 218 s.v. דֶּרֶךְ 5). For the idea of "control" or "hold in one's power" for the preposition "to"  see Psa_3:8 (cf. BDB 513 s.v. לְ 5.b[a]).

51 tn Heb  "Not to a man the walking and the establishing his step."

God not you or I decides our out come, however none will burn in some kind of eternal torment!

NASB 1Ti 4:10  For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.  (the chosen)

Now add God's own desire or will...

NASB 1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If God wills or desires all men to be saved, then what do you think will happen? Most of us already know!

Peace,
Paul

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 09:42:30 PMHi Bob,
Now we basicly agree there is not much more to answer. I don't fully understand the concept so I can't go into it any deeper as I did a few posts back.
I did quote a part of your post that I want to answer with some joke/lesson I once read:

A man came at heavens gate and Jesus sat at the door.
Jesus explained the man need to score a 100 points to enter Heaven. => scoring points is labor
So Jesus said tell me your good deeds and I write down the score.
Man: I went to church every week.
Jesus: Great. 3 points.
Man: I never cheated my wife.
Jesus: Nice! 1 point.
Man: I helped those in need.
Jesus: Sounds good. 2 points
The man started to sweat.
Jesus noticed it and asked why are you scared?
Well said the man I just told you all my good deeds in life and I still come 94 points short.
How can I ever enter Heaven? By the grace of God?
Jesus jumped up and shouted: 94 points !

Bit of topic but I had to share this lovely lesson  :HeartThrob:

Nice! Thanks!!!   :thumbsup:

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

oh no! the dreaded... :hithere:   :pointlaugh:  Just kidn... from Mr. emoticon man!

GREAT POST BRO!    :goodpost: :clapping: :happyclap: :rocker :ok:  :Urock:

Quote from: Pierac on November 02, 2008, 12:41:48 AM
So, what about...

NASB Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48  This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

So does man really have free will...?

Romans 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Just what part of "not on human will" do we all not understand?

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."


Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, born anew that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Let's just look at how much in control God really is...

NET Bible Pro 20:24  The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own76 way?

NET Commentary:  73 tn Heb  "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel" ).

74 tn Heb  "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."

sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended (e.g., Gen_50:26; Pro_3:6). Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.

75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.

76 tn Heb  "his way." The referent of the third masculine singular pronoun is unclear, so the word "own" was supplied in the translation to clarify that the referent is the human individual, not the Lord.


NET Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

NET Commentary:  28 tn Grk  "in whom," as a continuation of the previous verse.

29 tn Grk  "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).


NET Jeremiah 10:23  LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny.50 It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.51

50 tn Heb  "Not to the man his way." For the nuance of "fate, destiny, or the way things turn out" for the Hebrew word "way"  see Hag_1:5; Isa_40:27  and probably Psa_49:13 (cf. KBL 218 s.v. דֶּרֶךְ 5). For the idea of "control" or "hold in one's power" for the preposition "to"  see Psa_3:8 (cf. BDB 513 s.v. לְ 5.b[a]).

51 tn Heb  "Not to a man the walking and the establishing his step."

God not you or I decides our out come, however none will burn in some kind of eternal torment!

NASB 1Ti 4:10  For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.  (the chosen)

Now add God's own desire or will...

NASB 1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If God wills or desires all men to be saved, then what do you think will happen? Most of us already know!

Peace,
Paul

Quote from: willieH on November 01, 2008, 10:34:09 PM
willieH: How-Dee -- brother Paul!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 09:55:16 PM

Quote from: willieH on October 31, 2008, 09:50:47 PM
willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

So God ordained your disobedience, then subjects you to the shame of something that he caused?

YES... for it was HIS WILL... which was enacted... and was MY part of HIS PURPOSE in revealing to ALL His Children, the difference between G & E...  :dontknow:

Maybe you can answer more directly on behalf of my friend if that is a reasonable request.

My friend relates to what Paul talks about when he says he does what he don't want to do concerning his drug use.  He doesn't seem to try to stop because he says according to the teachings he has found he sees that it is not his fault.  God has ordained his Drug use so God will not allow him to have the desire when God wants him to stop.

In short,  he says it is not his fault and if God wants him to stop, then he won't do it anymore.

Is that True?  I believe that is a yes or no question from the NO free will point of view.   Yes or no?

Quote from: Pierac on November 02, 2008, 12:41:48 AM
So, what about...

I believe the aspect of our lives with God is larger than an either or point of view.  However many verses can be used to explain that indicates the control God has.  I personally understand the aspect of Proverbs 16:9 in my own life, however it does not clear up the supposed contradiction that the bible speaks of us making a  voluntary offering. 


What is voluntary about an offering made under the circumstances that man is not free within his circumstances?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 02, 2008, 01:46:41 AM

Quote from: Pierac on November 02, 2008, 12:41:48 AM
So, what about...

I believe the aspect of our lives with God is larger than an either or point of view.  However many verses can be used to explain that indicates the control God has.  I personally understand the aspect of Proverbs 16:9 in my own life, however it does not clear up the supposed contradiction that the bible speaks of us making a  voluntary offering. 


What is voluntary about an offering made under the circumstances that man is not free within his circumstances?

Hi Paul,  :hihat:

Don't really have an answer. Just like I don't have an answer as to why Jesus wasted his time in Mark 4 ?

NASB Mar 4:11  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12  so that indeed see
but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."  

CLV Mar 4:12 that, observing, they may be observing and may not be perceiving, and hearing, they may be hearing and not be understanding, lest at some time they should be
turning about, and they may be pardoned the penalties of their sins."

Why preach for hours to people who you know have been blinded by God, chosen not to believe? Verse 1 even states "a very large crowd gathered"  

Quotehowever it does not clear up the supposed contradiction that the bible speaks of us making a  voluntary offering.

Maybe the message is to go out to all like in Mark chapter 4, "the called", but only "the chosen" will respond?  

O.T. NASB Deu 7:6  "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.


N.T. NASB Col 3:12  So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

NASB Act 2:39  "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

CEV Act 2:39  This promise is for you and your children. It is for everyone our Lord God will choose, no matter where they live."

CEV Rev 17:14  These kings will go to war against the Lamb. But he will defeat them, because he is Lord over all lords and King over all kings. His followers are chosen and special and faithful.

Again, maybe the message goes out to all but only the few are chosen from the many called?  

Mat 22:14  "For many are called, but few are chosen."  

I see no free will in being chosen.

Paul

8though he were Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered;

9and having been perfected, became to all them that obey him, author of eternal salvation;

--Hebrews 5

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 01:19:02 AM
oh no! the dreaded... :hithere:   :pointlaugh:  Just kidn... from Mr. emoticon man!

WILLie I got a vision last night. Perhaps I was just drunk  :beerburp:

The message I received was a bit like this:

"All pray to Free WILLie from his iconic possession"

:Pray: :bowing: :notworthy: :Book:

Still reading this dialog, people who are 'anti-free-will' still don't understand the difference between the journey (free-will) and destination (sovereignty). It does not matter the pre-destined as it does not defeat the freedom of will of anyone in their life. We can choose the wide path that leads to destruction, or the narrow path that leads to life. In the end, all these things, whether life or death begin and end with God. For those who keep saying we don't have free-will because we are 'pre-destined' etc., they need to open their eyes to the fact free-will has nothing to do with the final end. It is talking about the journey between the Beginning and the End. Some people will have to experience death, because of the choices they made, while others will never experience death with the choices they make. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that God has predestined all to Him and He will in the End, be all in all.

  That was a great post Craig ,
  I listened and HEARD YOU ...and AGREE  :thumbsup:

willieH:  Hi brother PH... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH on November 01, 2008, 10:34:09 PM
willieH: How-Dee -- brother Paul!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 09:55:16 PM

Quote from: willieH on October 31, 2008, 09:50:47 PM
willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

So God ordained your disobedience, then subjects you to the shame of something that he caused?

YES... for it was HIS WILL... which was enacted... and was MY part of HIS PURPOSE in revealing to ALL His Children, the difference between G & E...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 02, 2008, 01:40:29 AMMaybe you can answer more directly on behalf of my friend if that is a reasonable request.

My friend relates to what Paul talks about when he says he does what he don't want to do concerning his drug use.  He doesn't seem to try to stop because he says according to the teachings he has found he sees that it is not his fault.  God has ordained his Drug use so God will not allow him to have the desire when God wants him to stop.

In short,  he says it is not his fault and if God wants him to stop, then he won't do it anymore.

Is that True?  I believe that is a yes or no question from the NO free will point of view.   Yes or no?

You have hemmed me in to a YES / NO answer to this... which I shall oblige... but then note some detail afterwards...




Now that the OUTRAGEOUS (and probably expected) answer I have given shall find opposition and ridicule... let me detail this "YES" answer...

ALL POWER is of GOD (Rom 13:1), to INCLUDE the "power" that your friend might need (which he claims NOT to have) to overcome his drug problem...

The Apostle PAUL notes in Rom 9:17... that Pharaoh who actively -- ENSLAVED, TORMENTED and KILLED, the people of God, was RAISED by GOD to be WHO he was, to be doing WHAT he DID...  This makes it look like GOD is the perpetrator of the doings of Pharaoh (or your friend maybe  :dontknow:), doesn't it?

Well, sorry to those who object to this but HE IS!  Who do you think INVENTED and brought into EXISTENCE, the very concept of EVIL?  :dunno:  Try reading Is 45:7!   :declare:

So if GOD is the INVENTOR/Creator of EVIL [ra = Hebrew - EVIL #H7451]... then its TOTAL presence is found rooted in the WILL of YHVH... otherwise, it would simply ...NOT ...BE!

For HE KNOWINGLY brings forth beings which shall indulge themselves IN IT... before they have even the slightest insight as to what it is...

Why does He do this?  Well, the presence and evidences of EVIL which MEN experience and perform have a PURPOSE in GLORIFYING the ETERNAL DELIVERANCE from it... as is shown with the experience of the JEWS:

That Pharaoh represented EVIL was to eventually GLORIFY the DIVINE Deliverance of the JEWS, which Pharaoh in all his WORLDLY POWER, was found COMPLETELY HELPLESS and could do NOTHING, to STOP it...

JUST as ALL SIN -- DEATH -- GRAVE, ...are COMPLETELY HELPLESS against the power of CHRIST to give LIFE to ALL of the Children of YHVH...

The Apostle PAUL in Rom 9:19 notes that FAULT is yet found by GOD, despite the fact that HE brought the ability to be found AT FAULT in each of us, into existence...  and shall demand that each "FAULTEE" face his doings...

It is HIS PURPOSE which is being wrought... and WE as the CLAY in His hands, have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER, to object to the PROCESS of that PURPOSE... (Rom 9:21-23)

PART of that purpose is found in the plight of your friend, brother Paul... I do not pretend to understand where and what his plight has to do in the grand scheme of GOD's PURPOSE, but if it had no part... then it just WOULD NOT BE...

ALL that exists in the Creation of GOD is found under His CONTROL and has been ORDAINED to be so BY HIM...

That we would stand on the highest FINITE mountain we can find, does not afford us the ability to see the FARTHEST STAR, nor any of the doings surrounding it...  So also are DETAILS and EXPLANATIONS of the PURPOSE of YHVH God, hidden from ALL Finites...

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

Quote from: SOtW on November 02, 2008, 07:49:13 PM
Still reading this dialog, people who are 'anti-free-will' still don't understand the difference between the journey (free-will) and destination (sovereignty). It does not matter the pre-destined as it does not defeat the freedom of will of anyone in their life. We can choose the wide path that leads to destruction, or the narrow path that leads to life.

GOD chooses THOSE who shall walk the Narrow pathway... HE is the one who draws, HE is the one who empowers, for CHRIST is the author and finisher of FAITH...  :HeartThrob:

Eph 2:10  ...for WE are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in CHRIST JESUS ...unto good works... which GOD hath BEFORE ORDAINED, that WE should walk IN THEM...

In the end, it is FAITH which produces the "walk" upon the narrow path... FAITH is a GIFT, and is enacted IN US, by the ALPHA and OMEGA...

GOD has mercy or hardens... and men recieve the processes of these, according to the ELECTION and PURPOSE of YHVH GOD...  :nod:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2008, 05:50:55 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 01:19:02 AM
oh no! the dreaded... :hithere:   :pointlaugh:  Just kidn... from Mr. emoticon man!

WILLie I got a vision last night. Perhaps I was just drunk  :beerburp:

The message I received was a bit like this:

"All pray to Free WILLie from his iconic possession"

:Pray: :bowing: :notworthy: :Book:

Maybe it was YOU which is the one needing the prayer bro!  Displayed by the unbridled uses of said emot--"icons" above!  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 09:39:01 PM
GOD chooses those THOSE shall walk the Narrow pathway... HE is the one who draws, HE is the one who empowers, for CHRIST[/i

Willie  :reachout:

I agree with the 'draw' part.
Just as a way to explain.
Assume the narrow road has 3 lanes.
Assume the wide road has 30 lanes.

Can we choose the lane?

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 09:42:01 PM
Maybe it was YOU which is the one needing the prayer bro!  Displayed by the unbridled uses of said emot--"icons" above!  :laughing7:

Certainly Willie. But my salvation requires so much prayers the whole supply of prayers would be used up.
I'm not that selfish :Chinscratch:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2008, 09:44:38 PM
I agree with the 'draw' part.
Just as a way to explain.
Assume the narrow road has 3 lanes.
Assume the wide road has 30 lanes.

Don't we all have a free choice to choose a lane?

I would say no, we do not have a 'free choice'.  The choice is made under duress.  Maybe you still call a choice made under durress a 'free choice'.  In that case maybe you or someone else could enlighten me as to the difference between a 'free choice' and a 'choice' because I really have no idea what the difference is.  I wonder what an unfree choice would look like.

Anyway, leading up to...

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

...is the promise of blessing and the threat of curse laid out in chapters 28 & 29.  So first, the choice is made under the duress of promised blessing and threatend curse.  But the choice can also be made under greater duress than this.  It can be made under the duress of now-experiencing the curse and now-recalling the blessing.

Deutonomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2008, 09:44:38 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 09:39:01 PM
GOD chooses those THOSE shall walk the Narrow pathway... HE is the one who draws, HE is the one who empowers, for CHRIST[/i

Willie  :reachout:

I agree with the 'draw' part.
Just as a way to explain.
Assume the narrow road has 3 lanes.
Assume the wide road has 30 lanes.

Don't we all have a free choice to choose a lane?

Don't you see bro, that IF it takes us to be DRAWN because Scripture states we CANNOT find that "lane" unless we are DRAWN, then our "will" has nothing to do with FINDING the lane?  :dontknow:

(John 6:44 & 65)  NO MAN CAN COME to ME, ["find the lane"] except the FATHER which hath sent Me, DRAW him, and I will raise him on the last day...

All that us "choosing", entails is that the DRAWING process is being enacted by GOD...  :nod:

Bob, Willie,

I changed the last line in my question.

So the curse (=wide road) and the blessing (=narrow road) are forced upon us.
God even forces us into a certain lane?

Your (Bob) quoted verses speak of a curse. I assume the curse is sin. And sin is death.
But sin comes in many shapes. (=lanes)
But even that we can't choose?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2008, 10:57:59 PM
Bob,

I changed the last line in my question.

So the curse (=wide road) and the blessing (=narrow road) are forced upon us.
God even forces us into a certain lane?

Your quoted verses speak of a curse. I assume the curse is sin. And sin is death.
But sin comes in many shapes. (=lanes)
But even that we can't choose?

GOD is not "forcing" anything... He is ALMIGHTY, which means that ALL MIGHT [power] is HIS...  He is just using that POWER wisely for the good of ALL...

That we cannot see the process as a whole, and how He is working it together, is where people in that finite mindset, object to the process because they figure they are being FORCED... one way or the other...

GOD is so much as arranging the tall people in the back and the short people in the front to take the family picture...  :laughing7:

And some of the short people are objecting because they dont like to be pointed out as SHORT, and the some of the tall people are complaining because they dont want to be in the BACK...  :dontknow:

But, in the end... this arranging process done by GOD, will afford the most effective and best picture of the family... irregardless of the complaining...

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 09:39:01 PM
willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

Quote from: SOtW on November 02, 2008, 07:49:13 PM
Still reading this dialog, people who are 'anti-free-will' still don't understand the difference between the journey (free-will) and destination (sovereignty). It does not matter the pre-destined as it does not defeat the freedom of will of anyone in their life. We can choose the wide path that leads to destruction, or the narrow path that leads to life.

GOD chooses THOSE who shall walk the Narrow pathway... HE is the one who draws, HE is the one who empowers, for CHRIST is the author and finisher of FAITH...  :HeartThrob:

Eph 2:10  ...for WE are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in CHRIST JESUS ...unto good works... which GOD hath BEFORE ORDAINED, that WE should walk IN THEM...

In the end, it is FAITH which produces the "walk" upon the narrow path... FAITH is a GIFT, and is enacted IN US, by the ALPHA and OMEGA...

GOD has mercy or hardens... and men recieve the processes of these, according to the ELECTION and PURPOSE of YHVH GOD...  :nod:

peacE...

willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

 Hi  Willie H !!     the little Red capper .,  

do you ever wonder why in all the examples in the OC /OT
   that those  chosen  , were chosen  by the Lord because  there  was something in them  that caused the Lord to draw them to Himself ? , like Daniel He prayed for  the people  as well as himself , and the Lord blessed his works and saved him from the lions den
 this is one example there are so many more , the  chosen  and worthy  to obtain , even Paul was still seeking to obtain  that higher calling  in his  preaching  

 Noah  preached to all those  people  it was the Christ in him doing that  , I am sure , but He found favor / grace in Gods eyes  and how did Noah do  that ?
     I have much more questions than answers bro , that is true  

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2008, 10:57:59 PM
Bob,

I changed the last line in my question.

So the curse (=wide road) and the blessing (=narrow road) are forced upon us.
God even forces us into a certain lane?

Wide road = not following Christ
Narrow road = following Christ

Curse = fruit of not following Christ = death
Blessing = life

No, they are not forced upon us.  Force = No choice.  We have a choice, but our choice is not free from duress or causation.

Can you now choose to put your hand into a fire or not?  Yes.  But it's not a choice that is free from causes.  When you choose not to, we can list the causes.

QuoteYour quoted verses speak of a curse. I assume the curse is sin. And sin is death.
But sin comes in many shapes. (=lanes)
But even that we can't choose?

sin = the lanes like you said.
curse = the consequence of choosing that lane

No, I'm not saying "we can't choose" a lane.  I'm saying just the opposite.  We do choose the lane.  All I'm saying is that the lane choice is not free from degrees of God-imposed duress and I'm saying that God can cause you to choose whatever lane He intends for you to choose.

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 11:04:03 PM
GOD is not "forcing" anything... He is ALMIGHTY, which means that ALL MIGHT [power] is HIS...  He is just using that POWER wisely for the good of ALL...

Please Willie don't start picking on a word. God puts us on a road (using His power/plan/...). Or whatever you call it.

QuoteThat we cannot see the process as a whole, and how He is working it together, is where people in that finite mindset, object to the process because they figure they are being FORCED... one way or the other...

Doesn't that mean that we can't make any claim about having a choice of lane?
Say we switch from lane #8 to lane #15.
I wouldn't be suprised if it feels that we make the choice to switch lanes.
But as you wrote we can't see the process. So we can't verify God put that choice in our mind.
So if you claim we have no knowledge of the whole you automaticly are saying you also don't know if you can freely switch lanes.
That's the way I see it. :laughing7:

Quote from: bobf on November 02, 2008, 11:16:44 PM
No, I'm not saying "we can't choose" a lane.  I'm saying just the opposite.  We do choose the lane.  All I'm saying is that the lane choice is not free from degrees of God-imposed duress and I'm saying that God can cause you to choose whatever lane He intends for you to choose.

For every action (from us) there is a reaction (=judgement from God)
Correct?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2008, 11:29:43 PM
For every action (from us) there is a reaction (=judgement from God)
Correct?

Yes, mabye not right away, but at the appointed time.  And it would depend on the action -- could be a blessing  :icon_flower: instead.

willieH: Hi sister R! :hithere:

Quote from: rosered on November 02, 2008, 11:07:00 PM
Hi  Willie H !!     the little Red capper .,  

do you ever wonder why in all the examples in the OC /OT
   that those  chosen  , were chosen  by the Lord because  there  was something in them  that caused the Lord to draw them to Himself ?

YES!  ...Actually nothing "causes" GOD to do anything... He PURPOSES His own doings in His Children...

The "something", is CHRIST IN THEM, that was being revealed sis... just as He shall be revealed in ALL...

It IS NOT and never WILL BE, about "our choices"... it is about GOD'S PURPOSE.

Quote from: rosered on November 02, 2008, 11:07:00 PMlike Daniel He prayed for  the people  as well as himself , and the Lord blessed his works and saved him from the lions den

  this is one example there are so many more , the  chosen  and worthy  to obtain , even Paul was still seeking to obtain  that higher calling  in his  preaching

But you see sister Rose... it about HIM not us!  CHRIST is due ALL GLORY... we are due NONE...  We are the Sons of God, because HE is GOD... not because WE are SONS...  If ONE IOTA of glory goes to our "choices"... then a portion of HIS GLORY is confiscated by that notation... 

Quote from: rosered on November 02, 2008, 11:07:00 PMNoah  preached to all those  people  it was the Christ in him doing that  , I am sure , but He found favor / grace in Gods eyes  and how did Noah do  that ?
     I have much more questions than answers bro , that is true  

You answer your own question ...WITHIN your question sis...  :bgdance:

Noah found favor [GRACE] in God's eyes, because the SON in whom YHVH is WELL PLEASED was the CHRIST being revealed ...IN HIM...

That CHRIST is found in ANY MAN, is the GRACE of GOD appearing IN that man...  :boogie:

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

boy bro... your "emoticon" addiction is growing below eh?  :laughing7:

Maybe we can go to "emoticon" REHAB meetings together eh?  :pointlaugh:

Quote from: willieHThat we cannot see the process as a whole, and how He is working it together, is where people in that finite mindset, object to the process because they figure they are being FORCED... one way or the other...

Quote from: WhiteWings link=topic=3485.msg37240#msg37240Doesn't that mean that we can't make any claim about having a choice of lane?
Say we switch from lane #8 to lane #15.
I wouldn't be suprised if it feels that we make the choice to switch lanes.
But as you wrote we can't see the process. So we can't verify God put that choice in our mind.
So if you claim we have no knowledge of the whole you automaticly are saying you also don't know if you can freely switch lanes.
That's the way I see it. :laughing7:

:hithere: :reachout: :hithere: :reachout: :hithere: :reachout: :hithere: :reachout: :hithere: :reachout:

The Scriptures speak SPIRITUALLY bro... they must be understood in the Spirit... that GOD notes in His WORD, over and over, that MAN does not know how to order his own steps or that man proposes a way which seems right but is in vain, is evidence enough for me that GOD is in CONTROL, ...which makes sense because HE IS GOD!

We only "switch lanes" because He has DECLARED that we shall do so... and we are just following that WISE and ETERNAL pathway to the next lane, amongst the other "lane changers"... as GOD WORKS ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL (Eph 1:11)

No amount of back & forth will give you sight of this brother... only the SPIRITUAL revelation shall do this...

It is ULTIMATELY HUMBLE to REALize that WE, have control of NOTHING... And gain the observation, that MAN in his natural state, fights and claws through life to gain control of this or that, all life long... to end in his own glory...

Mans philosophy:  "he who ends up with the most toys, and prettiest wife, WINS" --  :Yeahright:

When the SPIRIT of GOD, via His WORD, reveals that YOU are only YOU because the SPIRIT of GOD, makes you, ...YOU... then YOU find that the only SIGNIFICANCE you have, is that GOD LOVES YOU... and has given YOU to KNOW that LOVE...  :HeartThrob:

There is no greater THING in LIFE, then to realize truly that GOD LOVES YOU, and that HIS LOVE, is the sole reason and significance for LIFE...

Melting in, and being absorbed in that LOVE, is what LIFE is all about... and ALL shall be absorbed by His LOVE, in due time... which is WHY He asks us to FORGIVE, and LOVE one another, for it is our collective DESTINY, ...For ...EVER!

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 11:52:09 PM
willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

boy bro... your addiction is growing below eh?  :laughing7:

Yeah. Like with any addiction you want more more more. But you red-cap-man made me an addict.
Now I'm gonna try to get addicted to Jesus. Not much luck sofar...

QuoteNo amount of back & forth will give you sight of this brother... only the SPIRITUAL revelation shall do this...

I better stop reading then because i'm deaf and blind. I read and remember verses and posts. But feel nothing more or less that reading any other book.

God ordered me to only use 1 icon in this post.

:hithere: :reachout: :boydance:
(now just hope He has a sense of humor..)

QuoteNoah  preached to all those  people  it was the Christ in him doing that  , I am sure , but He found favor / grace in Gods eyes  and how did Noah do  that ?
      I have much more questions than answers bro , that is true 

You answer your own question ...WITHIN your question sis... 

Noah found favor [GRACE] in God's eyes, because the SON in whom YHVH is WELL PLEASED was the CHRIST being revealed ...IN HIM...

That CHRIST is found in ANY MAN, is the GRACE of GOD appearing IN that man... 

  OH Willie Willie Willie H  , thanks bro for the clarity ,  :HeartThrob:
ya know yer right  ALL GLORY IS GODS and I thank  Him for that  whew!
  and you what Bro ?  when the Christ Is revealed in  any chosen man /flesh 
it is a wonder to behiold ! I get it now , I am a little slow ya know !!  :sigh:, 

makes me realize this verse more fully now  [a quicked  excitment  light bulb on sota thing  .. hee hee
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

  THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST does come in our flesh and the Son does please the Father   :thumbsup:

  God love ya  :HeartThrob:

willieH: Hi WW...  :laughing7:

Stand up and confess...  :blush: "I, White Wings, ...am an "emoti-holic"...   :Evilgrin: :pointlaugh:

Quote from: willieH on November 02, 2008, 11:52:09 PM
willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

boy bro... your addiction is growing below eh?  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2008, 12:01:17 AMYeah. Like with any addiction you want more more more. But you red-cap-man made me an addict.

Just like Adam blaming Eve, for his own shortcomings - eh?   :laugh:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2008, 12:01:17 AMNow I'm gonna try to get addicted to Jesus. Not much luck sofar...

I'm not so sure bud...  :JCThink:

You wouldn't be here if you were not in the process bro...  :friendstu:

Quote from: willieHNo amount of back & forth will give you sight of this brother... only the SPIRITUAL revelation shall do this...

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2008, 12:01:17 AMI better stop reading then because i'm deaf and blind. I read and remember verses and posts. But feel nothing more or less that reading any other book.

"Feeling" is not part of the process... KNOWING is found in REVELATION...

The biggest difference, is that you most likely do not seek out and participate in FORUMS which are discussing other books you read...  :dontknow:

You are of the most DAILY participants here... which means you spend at least part of each day with us... (believers)... This is not coincidental it is PURPOSED by you, because YOU ARE INTERESTED... which is the beginning of the process...

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2008, 12:01:17 AMGod ordered me to only use 1 icon in this post.

:hithere: :reachout: :boydance:
(now just hope He has a sense of humor..)

No matter how you might joke about it... you are destined to be of His Children brother... and that is NOT of your choice...  :cloud9:

It is because HE LOVES you... which is HIS CHOICE!

willieH: Hi sis... :hithere:

Quote from: willieHNoah  preached to all those  people  it was the Christ in him doing that  , I am sure , but He found favor / grace in Gods eyes  and how did Noah do  that ?
      I have much more questions than answers bro , that is true 

You answer your own question ...WITHIN your question sis... 

Noah found favor [GRACE] in God's eyes, because the SON in whom YHVH is WELL PLEASED was the CHRIST being revealed ...IN HIM...

That CHRIST is found in ANY MAN, is the GRACE of GOD appearing IN that man... 

Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2008, 12:27:38 AMOH Willie Willie Willie H  , thanks bro for the clarity ,  :HeartThrob:
ya know yer right  ALL GLORY IS GODS and I thank  Him for that  whew!
  and you what Bro ?  when the Christ Is revealed in  any chosen man /flesh 
it is a wonder to behiold ! I get it now , I am a little slow ya know !!  :sigh:,

You aren't "slow" at all!  You are right on the pace which GOD intends you to be on!  :bgdance:

Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2008, 12:27:38 AMmakes me realize this verse more fully now  [a quicked  excitment  light bulb on sota thing  .. hee hee
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

  THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST does come in our flesh and the Son does please the Father   :thumbsup:

  God love ya  :HeartThrob:

God love you too sis!   :giveheart:

Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2008, 12:27:38 AM

QuoteNoah  preached to all those  people  it was the Christ in him doing that  , I am sure , but He found favor / grace in Gods eyes  and how did Noah do  that ?
      I have much more questions than answers bro , that is true 

You answer your own question ...WITHIN your question sis... 

Noah found favor [GRACE] in God's eyes, because the SON in whom YHVH is WELL PLEASED was the CHRIST being revealed ...IN HIM...

That CHRIST is found in ANY MAN, is the GRACE of GOD appearing IN that man... 

  OH Willie Willie Willie H  , thanks bro for the clarity ,  :HeartThrob:
ya know yer right  ALL GLORY IS GODS and I thank  Him for that  whew!
  and you what Bro ?  when the Christ Is revealed in  any chosen man /flesh 
it is a wonder to behiold ! I get it now , I am a little slow ya know !!  :sigh:, 

makes me realize this verse more fully now  [a quicked  excitment  light bulb on sota thing  .. hee hee
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

  THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST does come in our flesh and the Son does please the Father   :thumbsup:

  God love ya  :HeartThrob:

1 Every high priest is chosen from among men. He is appointed to act for them in everything that has to do with God. He offers gifts and sacrifices for their sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who have gone down the wrong path without knowing it. He can do that because he himself is weak. 3 That's why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins. He must also do it for the sins of the people.

4 No one can take that honor for himself. He must be appointed by God, just as Aaron was.

5 Even Christ did not take the glory of becoming a high priest for himself. God said to him,
   "You are my Son.
      Today I have become your Father." —(Psalm 2:7)
6 In another place he said,
   "You are a priest forever,
      just like Melchizedek." —(Psalm 110:4)

--Hebrews 5

Again, the son has free will--

Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2008, 02:25:25 AM
Again, the son has free will--

Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

This does not prove "free will" at ALL!  ...It was NOT the will of the FATHER for 12 legions of angels to be given, so the fact that they were available, does not mean that availability was even a CHOICE... it was just a stated availability... which was NOT in the plan.

CHRIST did not exercise this prayer, did He?  WHY?  Because it was NOT the WILL of GOD that He exercise it.

ALL that He ...DID... (doing displays choosing)... was according to the WILL of YHVH, which WILL did NOT include that 12 legions of angels come to His rescue...

The WILL of YHVH was that CHRIST go to the cross to redeem MAN... not to have CHRIST "choose" to DO otherwise, by exercising "His WILL"...

Quote from: WillieHThe WILL of YHVH was that CHRIST go to the cross to redeem MAN... not to have CHRIST "choose" to DO otherwise, by exercising "His WILL"...

I disagree.  Jesus did what he did in complete knowledge and awareness of his choices and outcomes.

To say otherwise is to detract from the wonderful gift he freely gave us.

Quote from: willieH
It is ULTIMATELY HUMBLE to REALize that WE, have control of NOTHING... And gain the observation, that MAN in his natural state, fights and claws through life to gain control of this or that, all life long... to end in his own glory...

Amen!!!!!

Willie, you sure do have a way with words. God has really blessed you with this gift. Reading your posts on "free will" humbles me. I agree with everything you say on this, I wish everyone could see this but I have to keep reminding myself that this is also in God's hands. Oh!! if everyone could see just how big God is and how small and powerless we are.

Quote from: Molly
I disagree.  Jesus did what he did in complete knowledge and awareness of his choices and outcomes.

Jesus always said that he came to do the will of the Father, not his own will. Everything Jesus did was from the Father. Jesus said of himself he could do NOTHING. Jesus knew the outcomes and I guess he was aware of his choices but this was from God his Father, not Himself. In (John 10:17-18) Jesus said "I lay down my life. (Verse 18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down OF MYSELF'.  But then he said "THIS COMMANDMENT HAVE I RECEIVED OF MY FATHER".

CHB

QuoteJesus always said that he came to do the will of the Father, not his own will.

Meaning he had free will to do so.

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2008, 05:56:48 AM

QuoteJesus always said that he came to do the will of the Father, not his own will.

Meaning he had free will to do so.

You have amply displayed that you don't get it...  which is God's will for you...  :cloud9:

The WILL of GOD, is that YOU DISMISS your flesh, as it presents its desires to you... as did CHRIST when His flesh presented temptations in which to indulge...  The WILL which CHRIST dismissed was the NATURAL state and desires of the FLESH in which He found Himself...  Those desires ALWAYS were OPPOSITE the WILL of the FATHER...  In the wilderness, in the Garden, etc...

That JESUS was SENT to SAVE the WORLD, was His GIVEN mission, from which He strayed NOT!  ...His mission did NOT involve Him indulging any WILL but the Father's... and so He did NOT DO SO... 

If He did NOTHING but the WILL of YHVH... 

"His will", WAS the WILL of YHVH, for He is the IMAGE of GOD, expressed in visible and audible, human form.

What He did, and you find yourself confused, is ...on occasion He DISMISSED His flesh... which was tempted... by NOTING the WILL of YHVH to DEFEAT it... and its ADVERSARIAL proposals...

Which means that He had NO "free will" of His own... His WILL was to do the WILL of  GOD... which btw, was His instruction to us...  :dontknow:

You only prove by your own words, what I just said previously about "scratching and clawing" to maintain any (even microscopic) degree of control, by claiming your will to be FREE...

You would in your vision, have YOUR WILL, dictate to GOD... rather than His to you... and thereby YOU would "force Him" to deal with YOU... and the choices you (supposedly) FREELY make apart from Him... :rolleye:

Not knowing that YOU only do, as He has already noted you would DO, before you were born (as He did of Jacob and Esau - Rom 9:11)... (He has no partiality one human to another, so the same IMPARTIALITY is shown to each one... and the same predestination concerning those lives being equally impartial as well - Acts 10:34 / Rom 2:11 / 2 Sam 14:14 / Job 34:19)

I have given the example of our bodies, ...maybe you missed it:

Your arms do not DO as THEY "will"... they DO as your HEAD "wills"... Your eyes do not LOOK at things THEY "will"... they DO as your HEAD "wills"... and so on...

The BODY of CHRIST, is no different... It DOES as the HEAD decides it shall do or not do...

In your observance, you would observe CHRIST having NO CONTROL over His BODY!   Rather, you would have HIS BODY, dictating to the HEAD...  :thumbdown:

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

--Heb 12


He endured the cross for the joy that was set before him--us!--meaning he had a choice.

QuoteBut then he said "THIS COMMANDMENT HAVE I RECEIVED OF MY FATHER".

A soldier takes commands from his commanding officer. Would you then detract from his bravery, courage, faithfulness, and service to his country when he loses his life following those orders because he was faithful in following orders?  Would you say he had no choice?


John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

As any rational and reasonable person will note, when you have two wills, the stronger of the two will always win. This does not destroy freedom of will. So so far, nobody in the anti-free-will position has made their case as pointed out by many here. So all I see is a bunch of people who pretend to know what they are talking about but have no actual facts or reason to support it, if a person has a will, there is freedom of will. Without freedom, there is no will.

This is going to defeat every anti-freewill reason in this thread.

2 Timothy 2:26
That they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Do the will of the devil? Hrm....? Well it appears that God's will is not always done in this journey and we, ambassadors of God on earth, are held responsible to bring people back to their senses and stop doing the will of the devil and to do the will of God. This conflict is impossible without the possibility of the freedom of will to pursue them.

As I said, those who are against free-will, are committing to a fallacy and deception that is so obvious to those who truly free. I made the choice to follow Christ, despite He saving me. We love him (our choice) because He first loved us. We choose Him because He first chose us. The moment there is more than one choice present for our will to choose, regardless how absurd, crazy, simple, difficult, etc. the choice, we still have freedom to make it.

There is no debate, no matter how much rhetoric is said. Free-will is not self-determination. Free-will has nothing to do with God's determined salvation. Come back to your senses and escape the trap of the devil who by your inability to see you have a freedom of choice, have never made a choice and therefore follow the will of the devil. You, those who continue to deny it, do a disservice to Christ and the truth of Universal Salvation in Him; You who are unable to distinguish the journey from the destination, denying the law of reaping and sowing, repentance and forgiveness, denying the truth which truly sets someone free is that when the Son has set you free, you are free indeed. FREE, regardless if you accept Him or believe in Him. I have no good words for those who plant seeds of deception into the minds and hearts of those who have just come from an evil system of belief only to jump into another evil system of belief. That evil system that 'whatever will be will be', that we do what we do because that is what was meant to do, promoting sin because there is no freedom from it. We all must make a choice, and we have the freedom of will to make that choice.WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO COME BACK TO YOUR  SENSES? That is what I am telling each and everyone of you, who deny that we have no freedom of will, come back to your senses, you cause little ones to sin. Jesus had harsh words for those people who caused the little ones to sin.

I'll try to explain my position in this by supporting it with verses. (within my limitations)
God's masterplan will be completed to the very last letter.
God has the has the power to control everything He wishes. The big question is: Does He use that power.
My short answer on a limited scale:

Joh_6:44 - No one can come to Him unless He draws them.
Here we see some power displayed. But as the verse states not to everyone.

Matthew 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
This sounds like your own choice.
Isaiah 29:13 .... and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men => a choice of what you want to believe
Matthew 15:6   you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition => Ignore God for your tradition
Luke 12:57 So why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?
1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold on to what is good.
Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.
Matthew 17:25 Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take tax? From their sons or from others?"

Matthew 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
=> finding is an activity of the (wanabe) believer

Matthew 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
=> following false prophets sounds like a choice.

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
=> So some igonore the will of Father.

Proverbs 1:15-16  My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:  16 For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.
=> Sounds like be able to choose a path

Many more such verses.

Basicly I see it this way.
We can resist God in this life. We can resist Him for a while in the next life. But He will bring so much evidence of to court that shows we where/are wrong and He was always right that eventually we break down and finally see and walk the only right path.
And then Gods masterplan is complete.

Quote from: willieH on November 03, 2008, 12:43:56 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2008, 12:01:17 AMNow I'm gonna try to get addicted to Jesus. Not much luck sofar...

I'm not so sure bud...  :JCThink:

You wouldn't be here if you were not in the process bro...  :friendstu:

Quote from: willieHNo amount of back & forth will give you sight of this brother... only the SPIRITUAL revelation shall do this...

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2008, 12:01:17 AMI better stop reading then because i'm deaf and blind. I read and remember verses and posts. But feel nothing more or less that reading any other book.

"Feeling" is not part of the process... KNOWING is found in REVELATION...

The biggest difference, is that you most likely do not seek out and participate in FORUMS which are discussing other books you read...  :dontknow:

You are of the most DAILY participants here... which means you spend at least part of each day with us... (believers)... This is not coincidental it is PURPOSED by you, because YOU ARE INTERESTED... which is the beginning of the process...

Now you make the mistake you always accuse me of. You look at my actions not my spirit.
If I posted daily on a Mickey Mouse forum would you say I'm drawn there by the Disney god?
Or if I frequently visit a WW2 forum I suddenly am a soldier?
I read debates between people discussing McCain vs Obama. I'm not even allowed to vote in the US.
I like to read science books about the moon. But I'm not howling at the full moon.

So being here doesn't make me a Chistian.
It like the verse that states that it's not about speaking the words of God but acting to them....

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.



IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America




Eph 1
6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

QuotePhillipians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV

13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. New Living Translation

Yes, but it does not say God is willing for us, which would be what it should say if man does not have a free will.

What do you do with the scripture that says if we WILFULLY sin after comming into the knowledge of the truth, are we to assume God made us WILFULLY sin? I suriously doubt that.

Quotepeople who are 'anti-free-will' still don't understand the difference between the journey (free-will) and destination (sovereignty).

Amen craig that the same impression I got :thumbsup:, mixing the journey up with the destination and we get the conflict within the scriptures, seperate the destination from the journey and the conflict disapears.

Bottom line--Men are terrified of freedom.

Freedom takes tremendous courage and a belief in the goodness of God.



Job 10:12
You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit.

I believe the two sides here are simply arguing from two different levels of ontological abstraction.

There is no 'correct' answer because, depending on the layer of philosophical strata you happen to be peering into, they are both true.

Part of being human is the illusion that we are autonomous creatures, freely strolling down the road of life. The real answers cannot come from quoting verses of scripture but only from understanding that there is a reason (that is, a cause) for every decision made.

AISI

:Sparkletooth:

 

  Hi all , well I have for one been informed  greatly by this thread ,thanks be to God  and all  contributing  :cloud9:

to be honest here , I was uncertian , what to believe
  I know that man will go to kicking and screaming all the way as the flesh& soul do buck up against the Will of God till the surrender  comes , I for one have  done such things utterly wasting time and precious energy , wanting my way  and it was NOT meant to be 
until I gave up , quit  trying and said God you do it ,  I cannot and do not know what is good or best for anyone  and I know you DO  now ! 
  that coming to  knowledge saved me
half the struggle was not trusting in God like I said I did , but did not do it at all

  Peter was  prime  example of this when he resisted with arguments  and force against Jesus going to the Cross !  Peters will was not Gods will or Jesus for that matter and become a stumbling Block [a Roadblock in the way] of Jesus course  , narrow path  , and  Peter was minful of the things of men and Not God , Jesus was mindful of the Things of God , heavenly things , that to me is the whole differnce , in the free will verse Gods will , one is  earthly sensual and devilish the Other is Wisdom from Above sent to us and MUST BE in Us to work 
I know 1st  Adam was  given earthly dominion [rule ]will  and that was  exercised  , utilized and  manifested  , but the 2ND ADAM was given ALL RULE  and Is being made Known  as well  and to me that is the difference  of the earthly and  heavenly wisdom being  willed/desired   , for lack of a better  comparison  here ...

Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 03, 2008, 05:18:26 PM
Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Paul 
  Can I speak from experience here ? I was just as your Friend  mate ...
   your Friend  whom the time has not come yet , to be delivered from his own [sin, error] it takes time for  the fleshly lusts  to become  so bad and  he becomes so EMPTY   , filling them desires only leaves you wanting and needing more and more to the point of where  you want to be DEAD  , 
you see when death  becomes your desire over constant sinning and knowing your  lost and empty  ,  and you are just so sick of  what life has become to you  , you are like a dog chasing its tail , the  circle /cycle 
  becomes so meaningless  and literal death seems like an option   because you have been in a self destrucive  mode of thinking for such a long time , you do contemplate your options  ,  God sounds good to you  finally after digging a hole so deep you cannot get out of it , you are trapped and you know it ... the sting of death has hurt everything around you for so long a time   because you are in a state of mourning and loss of what to do , you have heard of God but DO NOT KNOW HIM ,, and doubt you can be saved  , we all have felt worthless  from time to time  , no matter what  we try to do to get relief /peace , rest even
our Hope is in God  and we dont even know that at the time .. 
wishing you friend wellness and peace and the seal of God in his mind and heart ..........


Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2008, 05:50:32 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 03, 2008, 05:18:26 PM
Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Paul 
  Can I speak from experience here ? I was just as your Friend  mate ...
   your Friend  whom the time has not come yet , to be delivered from his own [sin, error] it takes time for  the fleshly lusts  to become  so bad and  he becomes so EMPTY   , filling them desires only leaves you wanting and needing more and more to the point of where  you want to be DEAD  , 
you see when death  becomes your desire over constant sinning and knowing your  lost and empty  ,  and you are just so sick of  what life has become to you  , you are like a dog chasing its tail , the  circle /cycle 
  becomes so meaningless  and literal death seems like an option   because you have been in a self destrucive  mode of thinking for such a long time , you do contemplate your options  ,  God sounds good to you  finally after digging a hole so deep you cannot get out of it , you are trapped and you know it ... the sting of death has hurt everything around you for so long a time   because you are in a state of mourning and loss of what to do , you have heard of God but DO NOT KNOW HIM ,, and doubt you can be saved  , we all have felt worthless  from time to time  , no matter what  we try to do to get relief /peace , rest even
our Hope is in God  and we dont even know that at the time .. 
wishing you friend wellness and peace and the seal of God in his mind and heart ..........


Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

Hi rosered,

I can speak from experience too,  from my experience I chose to stop what my friend keeps doing.  I give credit to God even though I did not call upon Gods name to quit at the time.

In fact I eventually saw that it was me that wanted to do that and God bringing me on this earth and my having circumstances beyond my control was not an excuse to continue.


My friend is actually glad that he can say that it is not his fault, because living that life is what he wants to do.   It causes his wife great grief and he tells her that God wants him to cause that grief upon her or he would not do the things he does. 



As I have said before, I do not believe this issue is an "either" "or"  I think it is a combination of God drawing, our consciousness to discern, and God at times allowing our will to take its course.   Are we reaping what we sow,  or are we reaping what God has sown?   If it is not our fault, then we are not reaping what WE sow.   We are reaping what God has made us sow.

We might believe it is all semantics if it is Gods will to reconcile and teach everyone that cannot be resisted.   But I will continue to try to get my friend to understand that God will not make someone give up and relinquish themselves to evil. 

He may allow it, and people may try to argue all the nonsense that the term semantics brings to the table, thats fine.


But my friend needs to understand that even if he gives in to those desires, it is not God standing there going.  """Come on buddy, do the drugs, you know you want them and I want you to do them, come on,  yeah, there ya go, stick that needle in your arm, you cannot resist because thats what I want you to do.  Yeah, now Go beat your wife cause I need you to beat her, there ya go.   Well done my good and faithful servant.""""


If God orchestrates everything through the direct manipulation of our being rather than allowing the freedom within his sovereignty and power to allow our freedom and PLAN for what we do so that we do learn and understand how powerless we are, then the bible contradicts itself when God says he will tempt no man.

 Paul Hazelwood

QuoteBut my friend needs to understand that even if he gives in to those desires, it is not God standing there going.  """Come on buddy, do the drugs, you know you want them and I want you to do them, come on,  yeah, there ya go, stick that needle in your arm, you cannot resist because thats what I want you to do.  Yeah, now Go beat your wife cause I need you to beat her, there ya go.   Well done my good and faithful servant.""""


If God orchestrates everything through the direct manipulation of our being rather than allowing the freedom within his sovereignty and power to allow our freedom and PLAN for what we do so that we do learn and understand how powerless we are, then the bible contradicts itself when God says he will tempt no man.

Hi Paul ,   with that said ,  I see you have a righteous anger  towards sin , and I love to see that in anyone , who stands up and  speaks out against it !! more so doing something about it ...........
No ,It is not God saying'' its ok friend to do whatever you please''
and hurt everyone around you , by doing as YOU DO 
  If that is his excuse  , he has some major growing up to do !
  One thing I have learned  about  being  childish is blaming everyone  , but yourself  for the way your life is going !
    thanks for the  more direct   speech ,  I feel your pain bro , it is sad to stand by and watch someone you care about self destruct ... and destroying everything around it /him [act ]
God help ....

QuoteBut my friend needs to understand that even if he gives in to those desires, it is not God standing there going.  """Come on buddy, do the drugs, you know you want them and I want you to do them, come on,  yeah, there ya go, stick that needle in your arm, you cannot resist because thats what I want you to do.  Yeah, now Go beat your wife cause I need you to beat her, there ya go.   Well done my good and faithful servant.""""

A little hard core for some to hear bro, but right on the money.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2008, 12:31:35 PM
Now you make the mistake you always accuse me of. You look at my actions not my spirit.
If I posted daily on a Mickey Mouse forum would you say I'm drawn there by the Disney god?

Whoa!  Calm down dude!  :mshock:  Where did I ...ACCUSE... you of anything?  I merely pointed out the frequency of your visits here, display INTEREST... take a chill pill!

QuoteOr if I frequently visit a WW2 forum I suddenly am a soldier?

Do you visit a WW2 forum WW?  :dontknow:  AT ALL?  :dunno:

Though I cannot be a visual witness, it is my guess that you DO NOT visit many (if any) other forums... you spend so much time here... you gotta eat & sleep, sometime!

QuoteI read debates between people discussing McCain vs Obama. I'm not even allowed to vote in the US.

Osama bin laden ...I'm sure is very interested in the upcoming US election, doesn't mean he wishes he could vote in it...  :dontknow:

QuoteI like to read science books about the moon. But I'm not howling at the full moon.

Hmmm... what's that noise in the background?  :Chinscratch:

QuoteSo being here doesn't make me a Chistian.

WHO named you a Christian?  :dontknow:  ...As I recall, it was YOU that stated a wish to become "addicted" to JESUS -- eh?  :dontknow:

QuoteIt like the verse that states that it's not about speaking the words of God but acting to them....

Whatever... get off your  :soap: ...and take your wrath elsewhere... It is not on my agenda to convince you to be a Christian...  Only GOD can do this... and he WILL do this... whether you see it or not...  :thumbdown:

Why don't we ignore each other from now on... then you won't have cause to raise your blood pressure through the roof again...  :thumbdown:

willieH: Hi PaulH... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 03, 2008, 05:18:26 PM
Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Let me give you an earthly example (realizing that this example is TIME and FINITE bound), then explain the SPIRITUAL (which is NOT TIME and FINITE bound) as I see it: 

The government of the city, posts (ordains) the driving speed limit on the street.  Because it has DECIDED the LAW to be, does not in any way TEMPT the driver to EXCEED it... the TEMPTATION of the driver, emerges from Himself... and either RECOGNIZES the LAW or DISOBEYS it... 

Though the City Govenment had nothing to do with the decisions made by individuals concerning observing or not observing the LAW, ...it cannot be entirely DISASSOCIATED with the LAW, ...this process however does not indicate the City Government as a "TEMPTING" entity.

Know that, like GOD... the City Government... DOES have PURPOSE in establishing the LAW -- that being, the safety of ALL...

But unlike GOD (who is IN CONTROL of all aspects of the keeping or breaking of His LAW)...  FINITELY becomes separate from the decision making processes of the individual...

GOD is the CREATOR of ALL things including EVIL (Is 45:7)

He also is the CREATOR of how all processes work within it, to include the NATURAL gravitations which man has TO IT...

Read one more verse down PAUL...

James 1:14 ...but EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he is drawn away of his own LUST, and enticed...

GOD does not tempt MAN... but is the Creator of MAN ...AND... the ENTIRE state of the NATURAL forces which DRAW him toward DISOBEDIENCE of His COMMANDS...

It is DECLARED in His WORD that man would (and will) do so... as it indicates over and over...  That GOD says something, means it shall happen... naming ALL as SINNERS... which is PRIOR or before that actually occurs... 

EVERY human being YET to be born, is ALREADY a SINNER, from the ETERNAL perspective.  :yes:

The WORD of GOD is not a "newspaper-like" report of the doings of man... It emerges from ETERNITY, ...as WORDS, of YHVH which cannot be ALTERED...

This is something which must be viewed in the SPIRIT, in order to grasp it.

That GOD's WORD notes Judas as the one who betrayed CHRIST, is NOT a report of "who did it" as some "after the fact", newsflash... It was ALREADY so... for the Lamb WAS slain from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... meaning that Judas' actions from ETERNAL perspective ARE... factual before they occured in TIME...

It is a DECLARATION which PRECEEDS TIME as an ETERNAL ENTITY, that contained this information BEFORE it ever occured in TIME...  :dontknow:

The WORD of GOD is not CONFINED to time... rather, it is an entity which DEFINES TIME and that which occurs WITHIN IT... from and IN, the position of the ETERNAL...

  well said Willie H! 
But I for one still think  a righteous anger moved by /in love   the new man in Christ  does not condone  wrong /evil brother or not concern for his well being means you should warn  them  in Ezek the watchman on the wall   was  given favor/grace seal of God  for blowing the trumpets ...


The New Life
17Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18They are darkened in their understanding alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19They have become callous and( have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

20But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22to  put off your old self,] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and   to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

25Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26(BK) Be angry and do not sin;/ MISS THE MARK , ERROR do not let the sun go down on your anger, 
27and give no opportunity to the devil.
28Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. 29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted,
forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you

  Some of the troubles UR  have is thinking God does it all and you have no need to do anything it will work out in the end  , that is a mistake  of thinking to me   
It is just how I feel about it sometimes ... :sigh:  Love is not some sweet ooowey  gooey  thing , It is brutal  Love can be  so honest it hurts like  mad and  it can be the very thing to make you see /change your mind  about  what you are doing  , kindness is being TRUTHFUL  WHEN  WRONGDOING IS BEING DONE   ! and these verses use the same concept of honesty to me  for all concerned

this is how I feel right or wrong ..
  love to all ..rose

Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2008, 05:50:32 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 03, 2008, 05:18:26 PM
Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Paul 
  Can I speak from experience here ? I was just as your Friend  mate ...
   your Friend  whom the time has not come yet , to be delivered from his own [sin, error] it takes time for  the fleshly lusts  to become  so bad and  he becomes so EMPTY   , filling them desires only leaves you wanting and needing more and more to the point of where  you want to be DEAD  , 
you see when death  becomes your desire over constant sinning and knowing your  lost and empty  ,  and you are just so sick of  what life has become to you  , you are like a dog chasing its tail , the  circle /cycle 
  becomes so meaningless  and literal death seems like an option   because you have been in a self destrucive  mode of thinking for such a long time , you do contemplate your options  ,  God sounds good to you  finally after digging a hole so deep you cannot get out of it , you are trapped and you know it ... the sting of death has hurt everything around you for so long a time   because you are in a state of mourning and loss of what to do , you have heard of God but DO NOT KNOW HIM ,, and doubt you can be saved  , we all have felt worthless  from time to time  , no matter what  we try to do to get relief /peace , rest even
our Hope is in God  and we dont even know that at the time .. 
wishing you friend wellness and peace and the seal of God in his mind and heart ..........


Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

God is a strange taskmaster. Yes, he directs our paths, Yes, he gives us orders and commands, Yes, he turns evil into good when we mess up or sends his angels to lift us up when we are surrounded by the enemy.  But, what does he want from us?  What does he expect?    That's at the bottom of the question of whether or not we have free will.  

For me, He wants relationship with us.  He wants to be able to put us where He needs us and have us do what He needs us to do.   We are to be his right arm, the right arm of God. But, we can't do any of that if we do not have relationship with Him.

To that end, He allows us to learn like any child learns, by trial and error, and by experience and real world evidence. So that we will love Him from the bottom of our hearts.  So that we will trust Him when he shows us something.  So that we will continue to trust Him, no matter how bad things look.

Does a kitten have free will?  The scientists (what spirit are they?) did an experiment where they put kittens in a gondola from birth.  They were carried everywhere they went, and not allowed to walk.  The kittens ended up functionally blind.  As adults, they would walk right off a cliff because they couldn't see it.  They needed to learn to see by the experience of trial and error.  So when you see kittens leaping and falling and rolling and twisting and doing all manner of silly looking things, know that they are learning to see.

I posted on a big stock board for a long time.   I was worshipped there because I was always right, and being right meant making money to those people.  My posts were getting 10,000 hits a year.  God was showing me things others couldn't see.  He wanted me there to warn them.  I was a god to them, people I will never meet, yet, I couldn't warn my own family and friends.  "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

Now God has me in this little backwater place of cyberspace where one would think I would be among my own, yet I am ridiculed, insulted, ignored, and rejected on a constant basis.  Mind you, the lovely thing about cyberspace, is you can just click it off and go somewhere else.  But, I don't.  God is teaching me so much here.  

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.  It was Christians who invented the Inquisition.  Yes, like the kittens, we make a lot of mistakes, but because we are human,  some of them are downright horrifying.

But, when that strong will is used in God's service, there is no greater force on the face of the earth for good.

He wants us to wrestle with the angel.  And, He made us that way for a reason.  Because most of all, He wants relationship with us and to be our light, the only light we desire, the only light we follow, and to want that with every fiber of our being, of our own free will.


24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

     But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
     "Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,  because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

---Gen 32




"Israel"

H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2008, 10:35:49 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2008, 05:50:32 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 03, 2008, 05:18:26 PM
Hi Willie

How does God ordain the desire for my friend to do drugs and not be the one who has tempted my friend to do those things?

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Paul 
  Can I speak from experience here ? I was just as your Friend  mate ...
   your Friend  whom the time has not come yet , to be delivered from his own [sin, error] it takes time for  the fleshly lusts  to become  so bad and  he becomes so EMPTY   , filling them desires only leaves you wanting and needing more and more to the point of where  you want to be DEAD  , 
you see when death  becomes your desire over constant sinning and knowing your  lost and empty  ,  and you are just so sick of  what life has become to you  , you are like a dog chasing its tail , the  circle /cycle 
  becomes so meaningless  and literal death seems like an option   because you have been in a self destrucive  mode of thinking for such a long time , you do contemplate your options  ,  God sounds good to you  finally after digging a hole so deep you cannot get out of it , you are trapped and you know it ... the sting of death has hurt everything around you for so long a time   because you are in a state of mourning and loss of what to do , you have heard of God but DO NOT KNOW HIM ,, and doubt you can be saved  , we all have felt worthless  from time to time  , no matter what  we try to do to get relief /peace , rest even
our Hope is in God  and we dont even know that at the time .. 
wishing you friend wellness and peace and the seal of God in his mind and heart ..........


Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 

God is a strange taskmaster. Yes, he directs our paths, Yes, he gives us orders and commands, Yes, he turns evil into good when we mess up or sends his angels to lift us up when we are surrounded by the enemy.  But, what does he want from us?  What does he expect?    That's at the bottom of the question of whether or not we have free will.  

For me, He wants relationship with us.  He wants to be able to put us where He needs us and have us do what He needs us to do.   We are to be his right arm, the right arm of God. But, we can't do any of that if we do not have relationship with Him.

To that end, He allows us to learn like any child learns, by trial and error, and by experience and real world evidence. So that we will love Him from the bottom of our hearts.  So that we will trust Him when he shows us something.  So that we will continue to trust Him, no matter how bad things look.

Does a kitten have free will?  The scientists (what spirit are they?) did an experiment where they put kittens in a gondola from birth.  They were carried everywhere they went, and not allowed to walk.  The kittens ended up functionally blind.  As adults, they would walk right off a cliff because they couldn't see it.  They needed to learn to see by the experience of trial and error.  So when you see kittens leaping and falling and rolling and twisting and doing all manner of silly looking things, know that they are learning to see.

I posted on a big stock board for a long time.   I was worshipped there because I was always right, and being right meant making money to those people.  My posts were getting 10,000 hits a year.  God was showing me things others couldn't see.  He wanted me there to warn them.  I was a god to them, people I will never meet, yet, I couldn't warn my own family and friends.  "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

Now God has me in this little backwater place of cyberspace where one would think I would be among my own, yet I am ridiculed, insulted, ignored, and rejected on a constant basis.  Mind you, the lovely thing about cyberspace, is you can just click it off and go somewhere else.  But, I don't.  God is teaching me so much here.  

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.  It was Christians who invented the Inquisition.  Yes, like the kittens, we make a lot of mistakes, but because we are human,  some of them are downright horrifying.

But, when that strong will is used in God's service, there is no greater force on the face of the earth for good.

He wants us to wrestle with the angel.  And, He made us that way for a reason.  Because most of all, He wants relationship with us and to be our light, the only light we desire, the only light we follow, and to want that with every fiber of our being, of our own free will.


24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

     But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
     "Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,  because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

---Gen 32




"Israel"

H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.

For God to want and to desire, and to expect,

is to me to project our limited views onto God who is everything, and to project human traits onto LOVE.   

willieH: Hi Craig...  :cloud9:

I mean no disrespects to you bro... but again firmly disagree with your viewpoint as follows... you are welcome to maintain your stand...  :happygrin:

Quote from: SOtW on November 03, 2008, 10:20:34 AM
As any rational and reasonable person will note, when you have two wills, the stronger of the two will always win. This does not destroy freedom of will.  So so far, nobody in the anti-free-will position has made their case as pointed out by many here.

This is just your opinion (viewpoint)... nothing more...  :dontknow:  Your opinion is that nobody here has made a case against "free will"... and you are welcome to it... :yes:

I believe that a case has been made, you just do not acknowledge that case...

QuoteSo all I see is a bunch of people who pretend to know what they are talking about but have no actual facts or reason to support it, if a person has a will, there is freedom of will. Without freedom, there is no will.

No one is "pretending" here brother... we all must consider the possibility that our viewpoint is either flawed or incomplete... including you.

This again, is YOUR observation, and you are welcome to it... however, YOUR observation is just that... and FACTS have been presented to support it, ...you just refuse to acknowledge those FACTUAL presentations...  :dontknow:

QuoteThis is going to defeat every anti-freewill reason in this thread.

:mnah:  I beg to differ with you, and believe that the below quoted Scriptures also disagree with this "freewill" view of your quoted verse:

Quote2 Timothy 2:26
That they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Do the will of the devil? Hrm....? Well it appears that God's will is not always done in this journey and we, ambassadors of God on earth, are held responsible to bring people back to their senses and stop doing the will of the devil and to do the will of God. This conflict is impossible without the possibility of the freedom of will to pursue them

Just as you admit... "it appears... that GOD's WILL is not always done in this journey"...

I shall quote verses which shows that GOD's WILL is NEVER deleted by finite MEN... and that FINITE MEN are DRIVEN into CAPTIVITY... BY GOD (not a mythical "devil")... without any prior "consent", obtained by GOD, from them...

First let me quote the KJV's version of this verse:

2 Tim 2:26  ...and that they may RECOVER themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will...

To begin with, one is either...

(1)  observing "the devil" as a being or individual entity which "has a will"... and that that "devil" is the one bringing the individual INTO "his" captivity... (translators insert words such as "him" to emphasize and clarify), ...OR,

(2)  that the "devil" is the NATURAL ADVERSITY which is created within the FLESH of MEN, which brings forth TEMPTATION (James 1:14), which results in SIN, and eventually DEATH...  ALL processes which are DONE by and PURPOSED of GOD...

Scripture notes that "CAPTIVITY" is arranged by GOD...

Rom 8:20-21 ...because the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY, ...not WILLINGLY but by REASON of HIM [PURPOSE of GOD] who hath subjected in hope... because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the BONDAGE of corruption [Natural "will" of the flesh] into the GLORIOUS liberty [FREEDOM] of the Children of GOD.

This verse shows that the CREATION of GOD, was subjected to its CAPTIVITY, ...BY GOD, and WITHOUT their consent...

Jer 29:14 ...and I will be found of you, saith YHVH, and ...I WILL... turn YOU away from your CAPTIVITY, and I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places whither, ...I HAVE DRIVEN YOU, saith YHVH; and ...I WILL BRING YOU AGAIN ["recover" in your verse above] into the place whence ...I CAUSED YOU, ...to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE.

GOD is herein indicated as the orchestrator of this whole thing... and therefore gets ALL GLORY for the VICTORIOUS result of that orchestration...

Jer 18:4 ...And the VESSEL that He made of CLAY, was MARRED ...in the HAND... of the POTTER; ...so He made it again ANOTHER VESSEL, as it seemed GOOD to the POTTER to MAKE IT...  The POTTER is doing the MARRING of the first vessel (BAD), and then REMAKING it into SOMETHING GOOD... 

GOD is shown here, ...the "doer" of both the MARRING, and the REMAKING processes... :yes:

Rom 11:32  ...for GOD hath CONCLUDED [without their consent/"will"] them ALL in UNBELIEF, that He might have MERCY upon ALL

It is the decision of GOD that we DO NOT BELIEVE... WHATSOEVER is not of FAITH is SIN (Rom 14:23) ... so it is GOD which has decided us as SINNERS, by concluding ALL in our UNBELIEF to be SINNERS...

Rom 9:21 ...hath not the POTTER -- POWER OVER the CLAY, of the same lump, to MAKE one VESSEL unto honor [spirit/MADE in HONOR/OBEDIENT], and ANOTHER unto DISHONOR? [flesh/MADE in DISHONOR/DISOBEDIENT]

Here, ...GOD is MAKING ...BOTH... VESSELS as they ARE... either OBEDIENT unto HONOR, or DISOBEDIENT unto DISHONOR...

The WILL of the FLESH which is man's NATURAL or FLESHLY "will"... is IN BONDAGE to that FLESH (itself), and NOT SUBJECT to the LAW of GOD... (Rom 7:7-21)

The WILL of the SPIRIT which is man's SPIRITUAL WILL (as CHRIST displayed) is found in alignment with YHVH is FREE... and STANDS upon the foundation of the LAW of GOD... (Rom 7:22-25)

John 8:32 ...and ye shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall MAKE YOU FREE...

What does the TRUTH "make" us FREE from?   :Chinscratch:

The FLESHLY "will" of the NATURAL man, which the TRUTH removes from the individual as that individual submits to the TRUTH (by being DRAWN to it, ...BY GOD)...

John 6:44 ...NO man CAN come unto Me [JESUS--the way the TRUTH & the life]... except the FATHER which hath sent Me, ...DRAW him...

   Molly wrote;

QuoteGod is a strange taskmaster. Yes, he directs our paths, Yes, he gives us orders and commands, Yes, he turns evil into good when we mess up or sends his angels to lift us up when we are surrounded by the enemy.  But, what does he want from us?  What does he expect?    That's at the bottom of the question of whether or not we have free will.   

For me, He wants relationship with us.  He wants to be able to put us where He needs us and have us do what He needs us to do.   We are to be his right arm, the right arm of God. But, we can't do any of that if we do not have relationship with Him.

To that end, He allows us to learn like any child learns, by trial and error, and by experience and real world evidence. So that we will love Him from the bottom of our hearts.  So that we will trust Him when he shows us something.  So that we will continue to trust Him, no matter how bad things look.

Does a kitten have free will?  The scientists (what spirit are they?) did an experiment where they put kittens in a gondola from birth.  They were carried everywhere they went, and not allowed to walk.  The kittens ended up functionally blind.  As adults, they would walk right off a cliff because they couldn't see it.  They needed to learn to see by the experience of trial and error.  So when you see kittens leaping and falling and rolling and twisting and doing all manner of silly looking things, know that they are learning to see.

I posted on a big stock board for a long time.   I was worshipped there because I was always right, and being right meant making money to those people.  My posts were getting 10,000 hits a year.  God was showing me things others couldn't see.  He wanted me there to warn them.  I was a god to them, people I will never meet, yet, I couldn't warn my own family and friends.  "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

Now God has me in this little backwater place of cyberspace where one would think I would be among my own, yet I am ridiculed, insulted, ignored, and rejected on a constant basis.  Mind you, the lovely thing about cyberspace, is you can just click it off and go somewhere else.  But, I don't.  God is teaching me so much here. 

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.  It was Christians who invented the Inquisition.  Yes, like the kittens, we make a lot of mistakes, but because we are human,  some of them are downright horrifying.

But, when that strong will is used in God's service, there is no greater force on the face of the earth for good.

He wants us to wrestle with the angel.  And, He made us that way for a reason.  Because most of all, He wants relationship with us and to be our light, the only light we desire, the only light we follow, and to want that with every fiber of our being, of our own free will.


24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

      But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
      "Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,  because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

---Gen 32




"Israel"

H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.

Molly  that was amazing about the kittens sis , I had no Idea  :mshock:

I do believe  some have to know the lowest possible place /depths of hell to appreciate  Gods help and love and develope the Trust it takes to have a relationship with Him   everything and everyone fails but Jesus Christ and His Spirit working within  you makes all the difference , to God be the Glory forever   God love ya sis ... rose

willieH: Hi Molly...  :happygrin:

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2008, 10:35:49 PM
Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.

:mock: :laugh: :pointlaugh:

:Yeahright:  Or, ...they will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove there IS free will!   :pointlaugh:

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 03, 2008, 03:13:59 PM
I believe the two sides here are simply arguing from two different levels of ontological abstraction.

There is no 'correct' answer because, depending on the layer of philosophical strata you happen to be peering into, they are both true.

Part of being human is the illusion that we are autonomous creatures, freely strolling down the road of life. The real answers cannot come from quoting verses of scripture but only from understanding that there is a reason (that is, a cause) for every decision made.

Exactly.  But at the same time, God does absolutely nothing without seed.  The problem has been with not knowing what the seed was that God was bringing to harvest or when it was sown.  Some of the predeterminist crowd would probably look at certain things and think "There wasn't any seed to that.  God just did it!"  But that's wrong.  God does nothing without His Word, His Faith, His Blood, and His Anointing.  There's all kinds of seeds that have been sown over the last couple thousand years that in God's Sovereignty haven't come fully up yet.  But I assure you, without the free willed sacrifices of many a saint along the way, God wouldn't be doing most of what He's been doing. One plants, one waters, and God sends the harvest.  And when it comes to the planting and watering, as some have observed, some were sent and some just went.  I know of many ministers that began their ministry with either a Vision of Jesus, a Vision of an Angel, a Supernatural Voice that spoke to them, or some other spectacular prophetic Word that made their calling and election sure.  I know of others that it was just a growing desire of their heart from the abundance of the revelations that they were getting of the Gospel and how the Word was transforming their lives, until they just went and did some things.  And because they weren't "sent" they had a few more bruises and war stories to share of how they believed their way through this or that.  In situations like that, you just never know!!  Are they a descendant of someone many of us look up to?  Did that certain Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher, and/or Mystic dedicate their family to the service of God forever so that 20 generations later, although the geneologies had long been lost connecting them to family members that far back, was it that act of dedication that virtually became a haunting experience in that person's life -- whether God was directly intervening or not?  Yeah, God could have been calling in the vow.  Or things might have just been taking their natural course because they were a family dedicated to God long ago.  God gives the harvest.  God also directs some of the planting and watering, but not all of it.  People have emotions, ambitions, and yearnings for God's glory even when their knowledge of His Kingdom plan for sowing and reap His way into all of mankind being drawn to Himself is obscured from their understanding with either religious tradition or no knowledge or tradition whatsoever.

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2008, 10:35:49 PM
To that end, He allows us to learn like any child learns, by trial and error, and by experience and real world evidence. So that we will love Him from the bottom of our hearts.  So that we will trust Him when he shows us something.  So that we will continue to trust Him, no matter how bad things look.

Does a kitten have free will?  The scientists (what spirit are they?) did an experiment where they put kittens in a gondola from birth.  They were carried everywhere they went, and not allowed to walk.  The kittens ended up functionally blind.  As adults, they would walk right off a cliff because they couldn't see it.  They needed to learn to see by the experience of trial and error.  So when you see kittens leaping and falling and rolling and twisting and doing all manner of silly looking things, know that they are learning to see...

Christians are the most strong willed people on the face of the earth.  They will beat you to death to prove to you that God loves you.  They will tie you up and gag you and hang you by your feet to prove to you that there is no free will.  It was Christians who invented the Inquisition.  Yes, like the kittens, we make a lot of mistakes, but because we are human,  some of them are downright horrifying.

But, when that strong will is used in God's service, there is no greater force on the face of the earth for good.

:goodpost: , Molly.  Though some Christians will cut off their nose to spite their face, God didn't at all times direct such a mutilation to take place!  Your kitten analogy may have actually perfectly explained why there is any demension of free will whatsoever.  I know that I've done enough :BangHead: to last me the rest of eternity.  I've had more than my fair share of :spank: because of things that I've wandered into that my vision at the time told me was THE thing to do.  But hindsight is 20/10 about not ever doing anything approximating those things ever again.  Had I been sheltered from making those free will decisions, then I'd of never known to reject that evil and to cling wholeheartedly to the good.  My cat's nearly 5 years old, yet he still gets into enough nonsense to where I've wondered if he was an experiment in artificial stupidity sometimes.  Yet in too many ways he's been the perfect allegory for my life. :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: ZeekFor God to want and to desire, and to expect,

is to me to project our limited views onto God who is everything, and to project human traits onto LOVE.

And, why not?  We're made in his image, aren't we?   And, how do we feel about the object of our love?  Don't we want to be loved back?  Don't we want the best for them?  Don't we want to help them? Don't we want a close and satisfying relationship with them?





14Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

15And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.

16And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi [My Husband]; and shalt call me no more Baali [My Master].

--Hosea 2



Exodus 33:11
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

Ya know, I've thought long and hard in the past, particularly in my preteens, about finding a trophy wife :first: with absolutely no free will of her own :Evilgrin:  And my opinion's the same as it was those eons ago.  That would actually be really fun for a few weeks :happytired:  But then it would become soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring :faint: :grave:

Hi willie,

What you say about God creating everything is not really at issue.  Sure , it is an aspect of the overall picture, but that in and of itself does not dictate that our will never has freedom  within the boundries God supplies for us.

There are verses in the bible that have no relevance to your point of view.

1C 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].



According to how you have explained your point of view, my friend has no use for this verse at all, it is completely meaningless if what you say is true.

My friend does not need a way of escape as he is accepting that his drug use and the corruption that it has brought his life is all designed and meant to be. 

The day that my friend either quits using drugs,  kills his wife, or dies because of it will be because there was no escape necessary because there was nothing to escape from.  If he was meant to not do it, he won't do it, if he feels like doing it, he's gonna do it because there is no reason not to, since when he goes and does it, God wanted him too, because after all,  he did go and do it.

Question Willie.

When the son of sam said God told him to kill all those people, did you or do you beleive him?

You know bro, I have seen so many of Gods people blame God for everything and others who blame satan for everything and there is not enough of God people who will shoulder the load and take responsibility for their own sins.

Adam tried passing the buck first to God then to Eve and Eve to the serpent, but God would have none of that and judged EACH according to what THEY had done AGAINST HIS WILL.

If everything is according to His will bro then there is absulutly no such thing as disobedience.

Not a 100% full understanding yet, but I see it more as a mixture of the "two sides".  I believe we have a limited will, geared more toward our growth/maturity.  I currently understand it as us having the ability and requirement to choose within parameters God allows, wherein we sometimes choose right, but sometimes choose wrong and fall, and need His help getting up...thereby learning to trust Him.  Sometimes He allows us to reach the end of ourselves, and that's where we find Him.  There's nothing beyond the scope of His control.  God's blessing, James.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 04, 2008, 01:46:56 AM
Hi willie,

What you say about God creating everything is not really at issue.  Sure , it is an aspect of the overall picture,

(my emphasis)

These are the aspects mentioned in my previous post. We are not built to believe or see or sense that we are controlled and every move is destined but looking from another angle, all the causes are there and were not created by us. This is a philosophical viewpoint issue and not a scripture battle as, again - BOTH viewpoints are contained in scripture.

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 03, 2008, 03:13:59 PM
I believe the two sides here are simply arguing from two different levels of ontological abstraction.

There is no 'correct' answer because, depending on the layer of philosophical strata you happen to be peering into, they are both true.

Part of being human is the illusion that we are autonomous creatures, freely strolling down the road of life. The real answers cannot come from quoting verses of scripture but only from understanding that there is a reason (that is, a cause) for every decision made.

AISI

Since this debate has raged from the old tentmaker to the new tentmaker (by some of the same folks) and now beyond I would suggest we each consider the others viewpoints instead of just digging in dogmatically into our separate views.

Obviously Paul H's friend can't sit there thinking God is making him do terrible things to himself and his family. Those who are at a place where you can see and accept absolute sovereignty should not be trying to force this dogmatic literal view of it as it is a PHILOSOPHICAL viewpoint that all are not meant or able to see or even NEED to see. In fact, I believe a literal acceptance of A.S. doctrine can be harmful as Paul H. has laid out concerning his friend.

I would like to see this wind down into a few succinct points and then be locked for future reference for those seeking info on both views since it is a bit off topic for tentmaker's UR focus.  :boyheart:

- Byron

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 04, 2008, 03:58:54 AM
Since this debate has raged from the old tentmaker to the new tentmaker (by some of the same folks) and now beyond I would suggest we each consider the others viewpoints instead of just digging in dogmatically into our separate views.

I would like to see this wind down into a few succinct points and then be locked for future reference for those seeking info on both views since it is a bit off topic for tentmaker's UR focus.  :boyheart:

- Byron

I agree.  I've been praying about the cutting off point on this, particularly since the one that started this thread hasn't been back in the 8 days since this thread got started.  Or if he has been back, then this ongoing thread has been neither here nor there to his purposes in reading everything else.  I do applaud ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE who has participated in this hot topic for not having at any point gotten over heated since this is one of those issues that cuts to the core of the understanding of UR for everyone that's participated on this thread -- which ever perspective you've had.

Quote from: FirstbornWe are not built to believe or see or sense that we are controlled and every move is destined but looking from another angle, all the causes are there and were not created by us.

And, yet, my mind is able technically to see those causes, and not be controlled by them. That is the mind of Christ.  Christ releases us from cause and effect.  That's the whole point.




43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

--Mat 5

willieH: Hi PaulH... :hithere:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 04, 2008, 01:46:56 AM
Hi willie,

What you say about God creating everything is not really at issue.  Sure , it is an aspect of the overall picture, but that in and of itself does not dictate that our will never has freedom  within the boundries God supplies for us.

We DO choose... but those choices are according and in line with the Declaration of GOD, which noted the End from the Beginning...  Along with that, the Bible has many verses which attest to the WILL of GOD including things which appear as ADVERSITY...

Such as the Apostle Paul's notation of Pharaoh in Rom 9... noting that GOD raised Pharaoh up to GLORIFY Him in all the World...  :dontknow:

Pharaoh did NOTHING in the ways most would identify GLORIFYING of GOD... but his position which was HELPLESS before the DELIVERANCE of GOD, and was NECESSARY to note from that postion and DEGREE of ADVERSITY,  ...the GREATNESS and MIRACULOUSNESS of that DELIVERANCE of the people of GOD...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 04, 2008, 01:46:56 AMThere are verses in the bible that have no relevance to your point of view.

1C 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

That is your viewpoint, and you are welcome to it... however, the RELEVANCE is there in that GOD shall deliver us from EVERYTHING in the end Paul...  NOTHING, to include  temptation is great enough to SEPARATE us from the LOVE of GOD which is in CHRIST JESUS...

The verse states that a way of escape will be made, that one might be able to ENDURE or BEAR the temptation...  This verse can mean that the temptation will temporarily be victorious in your circumstances, but that a way of escape will be made...

If EVERY temptation were completely avoided, there would be no SINNERS, brother  PaulH... but John notes that even the faithful shall be self decieving to esteem themselves not sinners: 

1 John 1:8 ...If we say we HAVE NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves, and the TRUTH is not in us...

Back to the case of Pharaoh... He was positioned BY GOD to be ADVERSE to the DELIVERANCE of the JEWS...  To the UNSPIRITUAL observer, they would see this as GOD fighting against Himself... which many an athiest can and DOES, claim... however, GOD's PURPOSE includes ADVERSITY, ...otherwise He would not have created EVIL in the first place...

That we cannot see every detail is that which separates the FINITE from the INFINITE...

I do not claim to know everything... but I do believe that GOD is WORKING ALL [not some] THINGS after the counsel of His OWN WILL [not ours], and choose NOT to argue against that statement (Eph 1:11)

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 04, 2008, 01:46:56 AMAccording to how you have explained your point of view, my friend has no use for this verse at all, it is completely meaningless if what you say is true.

My friend does not need a way of escape as he is accepting that his drug use and the corruption that it has brought his life is all designed and meant to be.

You sit in a position of observation of me, which is quite unknowledgeable bro... I counseled "drug users"... and have had and still have some within my own FAMILY... So please dont assume that I am ALOOF to the plight in which your friend is immersed...

There are reasons for the situations each NEGATIVITY presents... one is that WITNESS and TESTIMONY are born of them... One who has been delivered from DRUGS has a very meaningful and helpful TESTIMONY to give others trapped in this scenario...

If one have never done drugs and been under their addiction, then one has no testimony to offer those trapped in such a scenario...

That your friend is UNDELIVERED at the moment, does not mean that his day is not STILL to come! 

And that he presently sees no need for a "way of escape"... does not mean that that "way" shall find its way into being NEEDFUL to him one day...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on November 04, 2008, 01:46:56 AMThe day that my friend either quits using drugs,  kills his wife, or dies because of it will be because there was no escape necessary because there was nothing to escape from.  If he was meant to not do it, he won't do it, if he feels like doing it, he's gonna do it because there is no reason not to, since when he goes and does it, God wanted him too, because after all,  he did go and do it.

This is taking a human view of the PURPOSE of GOD, and deducing it accordingly.  GOD states that HE is ordering our steps... that HE is hardening and softening... that HE is working ALL things together...

Each DEATH is decided by GOD, and has its PURPOSE within the ETERNAL WISDOM of GOD... that You or I cannot see the reasons which note... WHY this or that person DIED as he did, ...or WHEN he did, ...or HOW he did, ...is NOT for us to KNOW...

Don't know if you remember Keith Green... a terrific SPIRITUALLY-ON FIRE -- songwriter/singer... with a completely UNSELFISH ministry, in the midst of his youth... yet -- boom, out of nowhere , he dies in a plane crash!  WHY? 

He was doing GOD's work better than ANYONE in his field!  Well... an incredible TESTIMONY was established by that man's death... even though at the time, ...from a finite, ...even SPIRITUAL observation point, ...it seemed to make no sense at all...  :omg:

Each of our deaths are predetermined bro... I cannot avoid the death I am to die... neither can you... CHRIST is our BEGINNING and our END...

Concerning ADDICTION:

The fact remains that GOD invented that which is ADDICTIVE to the human being... as well as the ability OF humans to become ADDICTED to those things... 

Your compassion is understandable, I have it myself... and testify that I have worked with folks in my personal AND work life which are immersed in drugs... but that you or I are compassionate and concerned for those bearing these tragic circumstances, does not remove GOD's involvement IN THEM...

Nor that HE decided that a given thing would be ADDICTIVE, and that some HUMANS would find themselves struggling under these ADDICTIVE elements...

GOD brought forth your friend, Paul... KNOWING that he would become an ADDICT, did He not?  LONG before he was born, let alone, become a victim of the drug...  yet GOD brought him forth nevertheless... How can you therefore, separate GOD from your friend's ADDICTION?

As I said... much wonderful TESTIMONY is often born of DELIVERANCE from drugs...

And even though TEMPORAL DEATH takes ALL by one method or another... in the final result, they ALL shall just MAGNIFY the RESURRECTION of CHRIST, and His ability to REDEEM from that death...

That MURDER or DRUGS or CANCER or HEART DISEASE or NUCLEAR WEAPONS, ...exist as potential candidates that might take our lives from us, does not remove GOD from their existence... Nor that He has no part or involvement in these and other methods of DEATH, variously finding us and separating us from LIFE...

GOD decided the different things which would take LIFE from a human being Paul... drugs is but one of many methodical entities which shall send this sinner or that, back to the dust of the earth...  :sigh:

Beautiful post, WillieH.  I think you finally said what you were trying to say on this thread.

Quote from: davidsulem on November 04, 2008, 04:55:33 PM
Hi Martin,

No Freewill/Freewill

Here is my post which I was about to send before you decided to stopped the thread on this subject.

To understand properly FREEWILL or NO FREEWILL, we need to keep a clear distinction between how our human will operates in matters of everyday living, and in the matter of salvation. Failure to keep this distinction clear in our mind is the main reason for so much confusion and misunderstanding on this subject.

It will greatly help if we think of human will as human capability.

In the matters of everyday living, my human will (capability) is free to do many things within the limits of my capabilities. I am free to choose either tea or coffee etc, etc etc.   Therefore, in matters of everyday living, it is abundantly clear that I do have FREEWILL, even though my will is limited. For example, I am not free to fly like a bird, but I am free to walk or run. I am free to do good deeds or bad deeds, knowing full well that both my good deeds and my bad deeds have consequences.  I have limited freewill.

Remove the concept of freewill in connection with everyday living, and we create a HUGE problem in understanding many aspects of life including the understanding of God's love and His judgements. Without freewill, our relationship with God becomes meaningless and we are really reduced to mere automatons.

In the matter of salvation, my human will (capability) is not free to choose salvation. We are incapable of choosing our own salvation. Our salvation is 100% the work of God from start to finish. Every aspect of our salvation is a gift from God. We don't choose God, but God chooses us to save us in His own time and His order.  When God chooses us, He enables, and empowers us to bring our will freely in line with His will. "Not my will, but Yours, be done." We do not have FREEWILL (capability) to choose our salvation, until and unless God supernaturally opens our eyes from blindness to His light and gives us the capability to choose His salvation.  Universalism is not a forced salvation, and God never forces His salvation on us. All the glory goes to God when God empowers us to freely choose His salvation.

Jesus Christ had limited freewill in matters of everyday living and He had God empowered unlimited freewill in the matter of salvation, not for His salvation, but for the salvation of the whole world.  We have limited freewill in matters of everyday living, but we have no freewill in the matter of our salvation, until and unless God makes our will free to choose His salvation.

The whole of NO FREEWILL theology is an over reaction to disprove Arminianism. Arminianianism is wrong, not because it believes in freewill, but because it promotes and exalts man's will above God's sovereign will in salvation. 

Blessings