Free will and eternal hell

[Pierac]

So, what about...

NASB Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48  This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

So does man really have free will...?

Romans 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Just what part of "not on human will" do we all not understand?

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."


Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, born anew that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Let's just look at how much in control God really is...

NET Bible Pro 20:24  The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own76 way?

NET Commentary:  73 tn Heb  "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel" ).

74 tn Heb  "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."

sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended (e.g., Gen_50:26; Pro_3:6). Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.

75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.

76 tn Heb  "his way." The referent of the third masculine singular pronoun is unclear, so the word "own" was supplied in the translation to clarify that the referent is the human individual, not the Lord.


NET Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

NET Commentary: 28 tn Grk  "in whom," as a continuation of the previous verse.

29 tn Grk  "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).


NET Jeremiah 10:23  LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny.50 It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.51

50 tn Heb  "Not to the man his way." For the nuance of "fate, destiny, or the way things turn out" for the Hebrew word "way"  see Hag_1:5; Isa_40:27  and probably Psa_49:13 (cf. KBL 218 s.v. דֶּרֶךְ 5). For the idea of "control" or "hold in one's power" for the preposition "to"  see Psa_3:8 (cf. BDB 513 s.v. לְ 5.b[a]).

51 tn Heb  "Not to a man the walking and the establishing his step."

God not you or I decides our out come, however none will burn in some kind of eternal torment!

NASB 1Ti 4:10  For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.  (the chosen)

Now add God's own desire or will...

NASB 1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If God wills or desires all men to be saved, then what do you think will happen? Most of us already know!

Peace,
Paul

[bobf]

Hi Bob,
Now we basicly agree there is not much more to answer. I don't fully understand the concept so I can't go into it any deeper as I did a few posts back.
I did quote a part of your post that I want to answer with some joke/lesson I once read:

A man came at heavens gate and Jesus sat at the door.
Jesus explained the man need to score a 100 points to enter Heaven. => scoring points is labor
So Jesus said tell me your good deeds and I write down the score.
Man: I went to church every week.
Jesus: Great. 3 points.
Man: I never cheated my wife.
Jesus: Nice! 1 point.
Man: I helped those in need.
Jesus: Sounds good. 2 points
The man started to sweat.
Jesus noticed it and asked why are you scared?
Well said the man I just told you all my good deeds in life and I still come 94 points short.
How can I ever enter Heaven? By the grace of God?
Jesus jumped up and shouted: 94 points !

Bit of topic but I had to share this lovely lesson  :HeartThrob:

Nice! Thanks!!!   :thumbsup:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

oh no! the dreaded... :hithere:   :pointlaugh:  Just kidn... from Mr. emoticon man!

GREAT POST BRO!    :goodpost: :clapping: :happyclap: :rocker :ok:  :Urock:

So, what about...

NASB Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48  This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

So does man really have free will...?

Romans 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Just what part of "not on human will" do we all not understand?

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."


Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, born anew that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Let's just look at how much in control God really is...

NET Bible Pro 20:24  The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own76 way?

NET Commentary:  73 tn Heb  "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel" ).

74 tn Heb  "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."

sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended (e.g., Gen_50:26; Pro_3:6). Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.

75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.

76 tn Heb  "his way." The referent of the third masculine singular pronoun is unclear, so the word "own" was supplied in the translation to clarify that the referent is the human individual, not the Lord.


NET Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

NET Commentary: 28 tn Grk  "in whom," as a continuation of the previous verse.

29 tn Grk  "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).


NET Jeremiah 10:23  LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny.50 It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.51

50 tn Heb  "Not to the man his way." For the nuance of "fate, destiny, or the way things turn out" for the Hebrew word "way"  see Hag_1:5; Isa_40:27  and probably Psa_49:13 (cf. KBL 218 s.v. דֶּרֶךְ 5). For the idea of "control" or "hold in one's power" for the preposition "to"  see Psa_3:8 (cf. BDB 513 s.v. לְ 5.b[a]).

51 tn Heb  "Not to a man the walking and the establishing his step."

God not you or I decides our out come, however none will burn in some kind of eternal torment!

NASB 1Ti 4:10  For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.  (the chosen)

Now add God's own desire or will...

NASB 1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If God wills or desires all men to be saved, then what do you think will happen? Most of us already know!

Peace,
Paul

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

willieH: How-Dee -- brother Paul!  :cloud9:

willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

So God ordained your disobedience, then subjects you to the shame of something that he caused?

YES... for it was HIS WILL... which was enacted... and was MY part of HIS PURPOSE in revealing to ALL His Children, the difference between G & E...  :dontknow:

Maybe you can answer more directly on behalf of my friend if that is a reasonable request.

My friend relates to what Paul talks about when he says he does what he don't want to do concerning his drug use.  He doesn't seem to try to stop because he says according to the teachings he has found he sees that it is not his fault.  God has ordained his Drug use so God will not allow him to have the desire when God wants him to stop.

In short,  he says it is not his fault and if God wants him to stop, then he won't do it anymore.

Is that True?  I believe that is a yes or no question from the NO free will point of view.   Yes or no?

[Paul Hazelwood]

So, what about...

I believe the aspect of our lives with God is larger than an either or point of view.  However many verses can be used to explain that indicates the control God has.  I personally understand the aspect of Proverbs 16:9 in my own life, however it does not clear up the supposed contradiction that the bible speaks of us making a  voluntary offering. 


What is voluntary about an offering made under the circumstances that man is not free within his circumstances?

[Pierac]

So, what about...

I believe the aspect of our lives with God is larger than an either or point of view.  However many verses can be used to explain that indicates the control God has.  I personally understand the aspect of Proverbs 16:9 in my own life, however it does not clear up the supposed contradiction that the bible speaks of us making a  voluntary offering. 


What is voluntary about an offering made under the circumstances that man is not free within his circumstances?

Hi Paul,  :hihat:

Don't really have an answer. Just like I don't have an answer as to why Jesus wasted his time in Mark 4 ?

NASB Mar 4:11  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12  so that indeed see
but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

CLV Mar 4:12 that, observing, they may be observing and may not be perceiving, and hearing, they may be hearing and not be understanding, lest at some time they should be
turning about, and they may be pardoned the penalties of their sins."

Why preach for hours to people who you know have been blinded by God, chosen not to believe? Verse 1 even states "a very large crowd gathered"

however it does not clear up the supposed contradiction that the bible speaks of us making a  voluntary offering.

Maybe the message is to go out to all like in Mark chapter 4, "the called", but only "the chosen" will respond?

O.T. NASB Deu 7:6  "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.


N.T. NASB Col 3:12  So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

NASB Act 2:39  "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

CEV Act 2:39  This promise is for you and your children. It is for everyone our Lord God will choose, no matter where they live."

CEV Rev 17:14  These kings will go to war against the Lamb. But he will defeat them, because he is Lord over all lords and King over all kings. His followers are chosen and special and faithful.

Again, maybe the message goes out to all but only the few are chosen from the many called?

Mat 22:14  "For many are called, but few are chosen."

I see no free will in being chosen.

Paul

[Molly]

8though he were Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered;

9and having been perfected, became to all them that obey him, author of eternal salvation;

--Hebrews 5

[WhiteWings]

oh no! the dreaded... :hithere:   :pointlaugh:  Just kidn... from Mr. emoticon man!

WILLie I got a vision last night. Perhaps I was just drunk  :beerburp:

The message I received was a bit like this:

"All pray to Free WILLie from his iconic possession"

:Pray: :bowing: :notworthy: :Book:

[Craig]

Still reading this dialog, people who are 'anti-free-will' still don't understand the difference between the journey (free-will) and destination (sovereignty). It does not matter the pre-destined as it does not defeat the freedom of will of anyone in their life. We can choose the wide path that leads to destruction, or the narrow path that leads to life. In the end, all these things, whether life or death begin and end with God. For those who keep saying we don't have free-will because we are 'pre-destined' etc., they need to open their eyes to the fact free-will has nothing to do with the final end. It is talking about the journey between the Beginning and the End. Some people will have to experience death, because of the choices they made, while others will never experience death with the choices they make. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that God has predestined all to Him and He will in the End, be all in all.

[rosered]

  That was a great post Craig ,
  I listened and HEARD YOU ...and AGREE  :thumbsup:

[willieH]

willieH:  Hi brother PH... :hithere:

willieH: How-Dee -- brother Paul!  :cloud9:

willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

So God ordained your disobedience, then subjects you to the shame of something that he caused?

YES... for it was HIS WILL... which was enacted... and was MY part of HIS PURPOSE in revealing to ALL His Children, the difference between G & E...  :dontknow:

Maybe you can answer more directly on behalf of my friend if that is a reasonable request.

My friend relates to what Paul talks about when he says he does what he don't want to do concerning his drug use.  He doesn't seem to try to stop because he says according to the teachings he has found he sees that it is not his fault.  God has ordained his Drug use so God will not allow him to have the desire when God wants him to stop.

In short,  he says it is not his fault and if God wants him to stop, then he won't do it anymore.

Is that True?  I believe that is a yes or no question from the NO free will point of view.   Yes or no?

You have hemmed me in to a YES / NO answer to this... which I shall oblige... but then note some detail afterwards...

YES...


Now that the OUTRAGEOUS (and probably expected) answer I have given shall find opposition and ridicule... let me detail this "YES" answer...

ALL POWER is of GOD (Rom 13:1), to INCLUDE the "power" that your friend might need (which he claims NOT to have) to overcome his drug problem...

The Apostle PAUL notes in Rom 9:17... that Pharaoh who actively -- ENSLAVED, TORMENTED and KILLED, the people of God, was RAISED by GOD to be WHO he was, to be doing WHAT he DID...  This makes it look like GOD is the perpetrator of the doings of Pharaoh (or your friend maybe  :dontknow:), doesn't it?

Well, sorry to those who object to this but HE IS!  Who do you think INVENTED and brought into EXISTENCE, the very concept of EVIL?  :dunno:  Try reading Is 45:7!   :declare:

So if GOD is the INVENTOR/Creator of EVIL [ra = Hebrew - EVIL #H7451]... then its TOTAL presence is found rooted in the WILL of YHVH... otherwise, it would simply ...NOT ...BE!

For HE KNOWINGLY brings forth beings which shall indulge themselves IN IT... before they have even the slightest insight as to what it is...

Why does He do this?  Well, the presence and evidences of EVIL which MEN experience and perform have a PURPOSE in GLORIFYING the ETERNAL DELIVERANCE from it... as is shown with the experience of the JEWS:

That Pharaoh represented EVIL was to eventually GLORIFY the DIVINE Deliverance of the JEWS, which Pharaoh in all his WORLDLY POWER, was found COMPLETELY HELPLESS and could do NOTHING, to STOP it...

JUST as ALL SIN -- DEATH -- GRAVE, ...are COMPLETELY HELPLESS against the power of CHRIST to give LIFE to ALL of the Children of YHVH...

The Apostle PAUL in Rom 9:19 notes that FAULT is yet found by GOD, despite the fact that HE brought the ability to be found AT FAULT in each of us, into existence...  and shall demand that each "FAULTEE" face his doings...

It is HIS PURPOSE which is being wrought... and WE as the CLAY in His hands, have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER, to object to the PROCESS of that PURPOSE... (Rom 9:21-23)

PART of that purpose is found in the plight of your friend, brother Paul... I do not pretend to understand where and what his plight has to do in the grand scheme of GOD's PURPOSE, but if it had no part... then it just WOULD NOT BE...

ALL that exists in the Creation of GOD is found under His CONTROL and has been ORDAINED to be so BY HIM...

That we would stand on the highest FINITE mountain we can find, does not afford us the ability to see the FARTHEST STAR, nor any of the doings surrounding it...  So also are DETAILS and EXPLANATIONS of the PURPOSE of YHVH God, hidden from ALL Finites...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

Still reading this dialog, people who are 'anti-free-will' still don't understand the difference between the journey (free-will) and destination (sovereignty). It does not matter the pre-destined as it does not defeat the freedom of will of anyone in their life. We can choose the wide path that leads to destruction, or the narrow path that leads to life.

GOD chooses THOSE who shall walk the Narrow pathway... HE is the one who draws, HE is the one who empowers, for CHRIST is the author and finisher of FAITH...  :HeartThrob:

Eph 2:10  ...for WE are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in CHRIST JESUS ...unto good works... which GOD hath BEFORE ORDAINED, that WE should walk IN THEM...

In the end, it is FAITH which produces the "walk" upon the narrow path... FAITH is a GIFT, and is enacted IN US, by the ALPHA and OMEGA...

GOD has mercy or hardens... and men recieve the processes of these, according to the ELECTION and PURPOSE of YHVH GOD...  :nod:

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

[willieH]

oh no! the dreaded... :hithere:   :pointlaugh:  Just kidn... from Mr. emoticon man!

WILLie I got a vision last night. Perhaps I was just drunk  :beerburp:

The message I received was a bit like this:

"All pray to Free WILLie from his iconic possession"

:Pray: :bowing: :notworthy: :Book:

Maybe it was YOU which is the one needing the prayer bro!  Displayed by the unbridled uses of said emot--"icons" above!  :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

[WhiteWings]

GOD chooses those THOSE shall walk the Narrow pathway... HE is the one who draws, HE is the one who empowers, for CHRIST[/i

Willie  :reachout:

I agree with the 'draw' part.
Just as a way to explain.
Assume the narrow road has 3 lanes.
Assume the wide road has 30 lanes.

Can we choose the lane?

[WhiteWings]

Maybe it was YOU which is the one needing the prayer bro!  Displayed by the unbridled uses of said emot--"icons" above!  :laughing7:

Certainly Willie. But my salvation requires so much prayers the whole supply of prayers would be used up.
I'm not that selfish :Chinscratch:

[bobf]

I agree with the 'draw' part.
Just as a way to explain.
Assume the narrow road has 3 lanes.
Assume the wide road has 30 lanes.

Don't we all have a free choice to choose a lane?

I would say no, we do not have a 'free choice'.  The choice is made under duress.  Maybe you still call a choice made under durress a 'free choice'.  In that case maybe you or someone else could enlighten me as to the difference between a 'free choice' and a 'choice' because I really have no idea what the difference is.  I wonder what an unfree choice would look like.

Anyway, leading up to...

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

...is the promise of blessing and the threat of curse laid out in chapters 28 & 29.  So first, the choice is made under the duress of promised blessing and threatend curse.  But the choice can also be made under greater duress than this.  It can be made under the duress of now-experiencing the curse and now-recalling the blessing.

Deutonomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

[willieH]

GOD chooses those THOSE shall walk the Narrow pathway... HE is the one who draws, HE is the one who empowers, for CHRIST[/i

Willie  :reachout:

I agree with the 'draw' part.
Just as a way to explain.
Assume the narrow road has 3 lanes.
Assume the wide road has 30 lanes.

Don't we all have a free choice to choose a lane?

Don't you see bro, that IF it takes us to be DRAWN because Scripture states we CANNOT find that "lane" unless we are DRAWN, then our "will" has nothing to do with FINDING the lane?  :dontknow:

(John 6:44 & 65)  NO MAN CAN COME to ME, ["find the lane"] except the FATHER which hath sent Me, DRAW him, and I will raise him on the last day...

All that us "choosing", entails is that the DRAWING process is being enacted by GOD...  :nod:

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

[WhiteWings]

Bob, Willie,

I changed the last line in my question.

So the curse (=wide road) and the blessing (=narrow road) are forced upon us.
God even forces us into a certain lane?

Your (Bob) quoted verses speak of a curse. I assume the curse is sin. And sin is death.
But sin comes in many shapes. (=lanes)
But even that we can't choose?

[willieH]

Bob,

I changed the last line in my question.

So the curse (=wide road) and the blessing (=narrow road) are forced upon us.
God even forces us into a certain lane?

Your quoted verses speak of a curse. I assume the curse is sin. And sin is death.
But sin comes in many shapes. (=lanes)
But even that we can't choose?

GOD is not "forcing" anything... He is ALMIGHTY, which means that ALL MIGHT [power] is HIS...  He is just using that POWER wisely for the good of ALL...

That we cannot see the process as a whole, and how He is working it together, is where people in that finite mindset, object to the process because they figure they are being FORCED... one way or the other...

GOD is so much as arranging the tall people in the back and the short people in the front to take the family picture...  :laughing7:

And some of the short people are objecting because they dont like to be pointed out as SHORT, and the some of the tall people are complaining because they dont want to be in the BACK...  :dontknow:

But, in the end... this arranging process done by GOD, will afford the most effective and best picture of the family... irregardless of the complaining...

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

[rosered]

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

Still reading this dialog, people who are 'anti-free-will' still don't understand the difference between the journey (free-will) and destination (sovereignty). It does not matter the pre-destined as it does not defeat the freedom of will of anyone in their life. We can choose the wide path that leads to destruction, or the narrow path that leads to life.

GOD chooses THOSE who shall walk the Narrow pathway... HE is the one who draws, HE is the one who empowers, for CHRIST is the author and finisher of FAITH...  :HeartThrob:

Eph 2:10  ...for WE are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in CHRIST JESUS ...unto good works... which GOD hath BEFORE ORDAINED, that WE should walk IN THEM...

In the end, it is FAITH which produces the "walk" upon the narrow path... FAITH is a GIFT, and is enacted IN US, by the ALPHA and OMEGA...

GOD has mercy or hardens... and men recieve the processes of these, according to the ELECTION and PURPOSE of YHVH GOD...  :nod:

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor:

 Hi  Willie H !!     the little Red capper .,  

do you ever wonder why in all the examples in the OC /OT
   that those  chosen  , were chosen  by the Lord because  there  was something in them  that caused the Lord to draw them to Himself ? , like Daniel He prayed for  the people  as well as himself , and the Lord blessed his works and saved him from the lions den
 this is one example there are so many more , the  chosen  and worthy  to obtain , even Paul was still seeking to obtain  that higher calling  in his  preaching  

 Noah  preached to all those  people  it was the Christ in him doing that  , I am sure , but He found favor / grace in Gods eyes  and how did Noah do  that ?
     I have much more questions than answers bro , that is true  

[bobf]

Bob,

I changed the last line in my question.

So the curse (=wide road) and the blessing (=narrow road) are forced upon us.
God even forces us into a certain lane?

Wide road = not following Christ
Narrow road = following Christ

Curse = fruit of not following Christ = death
Blessing = life

No, they are not forced upon us.  Force = No choice.  We have a choice, but our choice is not free from duress or causation.

Can you now choose to put your hand into a fire or not?  Yes.  But it's not a choice that is free from causes.  When you choose not to, we can list the causes.

Your quoted verses speak of a curse. I assume the curse is sin. And sin is death.
But sin comes in many shapes. (=lanes)
But even that we can't choose?

sin = the lanes like you said.
curse = the consequence of choosing that lane

No, I'm not saying "we can't choose" a lane.  I'm saying just the opposite.  We do choose the lane.  All I'm saying is that the lane choice is not free from degrees of God-imposed duress and I'm saying that God can cause you to choose whatever lane He intends for you to choose.

[WhiteWings]

GOD is not "forcing" anything... He is ALMIGHTY, which means that ALL MIGHT [power] is HIS...  He is just using that POWER wisely for the good of ALL...

Please Willie don't start picking on a word. God puts us on a road (using His power/plan/...). Or whatever you call it.

That we cannot see the process as a whole, and how He is working it together, is where people in that finite mindset, object to the process because they figure they are being FORCED... one way or the other...

Doesn't that mean that we can't make any claim about having a choice of lane?
Say we switch from lane #8 to lane #15.
I wouldn't be suprised if it feels that we make the choice to switch lanes.
But as you wrote we can't see the process. So we can't verify God put that choice in our mind.
So if you claim we have no knowledge of the whole you automaticly are saying you also don't know if you can freely switch lanes.
That's the way I see it. :laughing7:

:hithere: :reachout: :hithere: :reachout: :hithere: :reachout: :hithere: :reachout: :hithere: :reachout:

[WhiteWings]

No, I'm not saying "we can't choose" a lane.  I'm saying just the opposite.  We do choose the lane.  All I'm saying is that the lane choice is not free from degrees of God-imposed duress and I'm saying that God can cause you to choose whatever lane He intends for you to choose.

For every action (from us) there is a reaction (=judgement from God)
Correct?

[bobf]

For every action (from us) there is a reaction (=judgement from God)
Correct?

Yes, mabye not right away, but at the appointed time.  And it would depend on the action -- could be a blessing  :icon_flower: instead.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister R! :hithere:

Hi  Willie H !!     the little Red capper .,  

do you ever wonder why in all the examples in the OC /OT
   that those  chosen  , were chosen  by the Lord because  there  was something in them  that caused the Lord to draw them to Himself ?

YES!  ...Actually nothing "causes" GOD to do anything... He PURPOSES His own doings in His Children...

The "something", is CHRIST IN THEM, that was being revealed sis... just as He shall be revealed in ALL...

It IS NOT and never WILL BE, about "our choices"... it is about GOD'S PURPOSE.

like Daniel He prayed for  the people  as well as himself , and the Lord blessed his works and saved him from the lions den

  this is one example there are so many more , the  chosen  and worthy  to obtain , even Paul was still seeking to obtain  that higher calling  in his  preaching

But you see sister Rose... it about HIM not us!  CHRIST is due ALL GLORY... we are due NONE...  We are the Sons of God, because HE is GOD... not because WE are SONS...  If ONE IOTA of glory goes to our "choices"... then a portion of HIS GLORY is confiscated by that notation... 

Noah  preached to all those  people  it was the Christ in him doing that  , I am sure , but He found favor / grace in Gods eyes  and how did Noah do  that ?
     I have much more questions than answers bro , that is true  

You answer your own question ...WITHIN your question sis...  :bgdance:

Noah found favor [GRACE] in God's eyes, because the SON in whom YHVH is WELL PLEASED was the CHRIST being revealed ...IN HIM...

That CHRIST is found in ANY MAN, is the GRACE of GOD appearing IN that man...  :boogie:

peacE...
willieH   :icon_jokercolor: