Free will and eternal hell

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

I agree.

[Molly]

Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I agree with that verse.   The problem in these threads and this issue of free will is it is not as simple as saying we are free if we are not free to escape Gods plan for our eternal destiny.

The reason I ask the questions is if the above is true can you then say we have the free will to avoid being reconciled to God?

[CHB]

I remember a minister teaching on this subject once said "My sister-in-law was canning peaches yesterday, and she dropped a quart of peaches on her foot and broke her toe. I do not think that God had that all planned out from before the foundation of the world!" He was very emphatic about God not being sovereign over all the petty details of every day life.

When I heard that sermon, I agreed with that point. It seemed ridiculous to me that God would even bother to involve Himself with such menial details.

That's when we look as a human that's limited in every aspect. But for God even the whole salvation process is a petty thing. His possibilities are so vast (unlimited) that compared to that everything is a petty thing.
We delegate petty things, or ignore then. Why? Often because we can't handle more than a handful of things at the same time. Father hasn't that limitation. Basicly I'm saying we just can't make the claim 'to petty for God'
The writer argues it's a petty thing. I can just as well argue it is a test. Do you swear when you drop your keys? Do you get irritated and get nasty at innocent bystanders that have nothing to do with you dropping your keys (shifting blame)

That is a law of nature and of science which cannot be broken. Dallas's conclusion from reading that totally secular book, was that God is therefore in complete and total control of even the smallest details of life.

An unproveble claim. God can indeed control every detail like dropping your keys. Those keys drop down not up due to the laws of nature. But that doesn't prove God controled the dropping of the keys. He created the laws of nature and stricktly speaking he can take a nap and the laws of nature keep working.
Just like the mechanics that made your car don't have to be present every inch you drive.

Surely God was not the cause of every single little detail!

A claim that is just that a claim until you can back it up with scripture or holy inspiration.

Matt 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Matt 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matt 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

That indeed point to God taking notice of detail.
The point is what does God do with all that information? To me it mostly is some warning/comforting words that nothing escapes the vast knowledge of God. But that in itself doesn't prove He uses that knowledge for contant control.



Although I don't fully agree still a very nice article :thumbsup:

WhiteWings,

I think you completely misunderstood this article. Mike was telling how he was brought to the understanding that God was in control of the tiniest details.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

WhiteWings,

I think you completely misunderstood this article. Mike was telling how he was brought to the understanding that God was in control of the tiniest details.

CHB,

I think I understood the article quite well.
I just don't (fully) agree. His logic can be correct but he didn't show enough proof to backup his claims.
So I'm not say that he is right or wrong; I'm saying with the information presented I can only say 'possibly correct'

:teaching:

[bobf]

The red part can be base for an endless discussing.
I can easily learn you some thing. The question is you will accept it? If yes/no why?

I'll take an extreme case of learnin' to make my point.  A child might put his hand into a fire.  Why?  Becuase he is curious.  Did he choose to put his hand in the fire?  Sure.   Did he choose to be curious?  No, that was pre-wired.

Once he put's his hand in the fire, can he help but learn that it's hurts like crazy?  No way.  Can he still chose to do it again?  Sure, but after a few tries he will be convinced that the awful pain comes every time.  Every child will learn to quit doing it, unless there is something wrong with his noggin.

Whether I will accept your learnin' depends on how convincing your argument or demonstration is.  God's convincin' is probably pretty strong. ;)

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. 11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.

It doesn't say that when God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world might learn righteousness.... if only their free=wills are sufficiently not-too-unrighteous to begin with.  It does not depend on man's will.  There is none good, none seeking God!

[Nathan]

Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I agree with that verse.   The problem in these threads and this issue of free will is it is not as simple as saying we are free if we are not free to escape Gods plan for our eternal destiny.

The reason I ask the questions is if the above is true can you then say we have the free will to avoid being reconciled to God?

I've seen this response to UR a lot . .this idea that we have a free will and as such, we have the ability to choose heaven or hell.  How does Phillipians fit in with the free will theory?

Phillipians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV

13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. New Living Translation

Be energetic in your life of salvation, reverent and sensitive before God. That energy is God's energy, an energy deep within you, God himself willing and working at what will give him the most pleasure.  Message Translation

Where is the Scriptural reference supporting that man has a free will?  It must be under a term other than "free will" because I looked, there's no references matching that phrase.

If God is "in" me manifesting his will "through" me, how can I still claim that I have a "free" will of my own?

[bobf]

However........   God is going to keep dragging me out of the building till one day my FREE WILL TIRES OF FIGHTING.

Good stuff Paul!

Deuteronomy 32:36 The Lord will judge his people and have compassion on his servants when he sees their strength is gone and no one is left, slave or free. 37 He will say: "Now where are their gods, the rock they took refuge in"

[WhiteWings]

bobf,

I'm sure God has control of many things.
If he desires I can control every atom in the universe.
I'm sure He at times forces/guides our will to certain actions. We will just think it was our own choice.
Basicly I say/accept God can choose to have  0-100% control.
I think most agree His control is >0%
But is it 100%?
I simply do not know. I can't find any solid proof for it.
I could have chosen to ignore your post.
I could have chosen to make it a short "don't agree"
I could have....

To me it really 100% sure feels I wrote this message out of free will (ignoring teh fact that I find it polite to answer posts direct to me)
But how can I know God didn't put all the words I typed into my mind making?
I just can't proof such things.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I agree with that verse.   The problem in these threads and this issue of free will is it is not as simple as saying we are free if we are not free to escape Gods plan for our eternal destiny.

The reason I ask the questions is if the above is true can you then say we have the free will to avoid being reconciled to God?

I've seen this response to UR a lot . .this idea that we have a free will and as such, we have the ability to choose heaven or hell.  How does Phillipians fit in with the free will theory?

Phillipians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV

13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. New Living Translation

Be energetic in your life of salvation, reverent and sensitive before God. That energy is God's energy, an energy deep within you, God himself willing and working at what will give him the most pleasure.  Message Translation

Where is the Scriptural reference supporting that man has a free will?  It must be under a term other than "free will" because I looked, there's no references matching that phrase.

If God is "in" me manifesting his will "through" me, how can I still claim that I have a "free" will of my own?

Some translations contain the word freewill in reference to a voluntary offering.

If we are not free at all, even within the contraints of boundries, how can we be told to make a free will (voluntary) offering?

[Nathan]

Well, James says that every good gift is from above, so if I'm giving a voluntary gift, the origin from where that desire came would also come from above, thus, manifesting the Phillippians passage in me.  Yes?

[Molly]

Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

I agree with that verse.   The problem in these threads and this issue of free will is it is not as simple as saying we are free if we are not free to escape Gods plan for our eternal destiny.

The reason I ask the questions is if the above is true can you then say we have the free will to avoid being reconciled to God?

I've seen this response to UR a lot . .this idea that we have a free will and as such, we have the ability to choose heaven or hell.  How does Phillipians fit in with the free will theory?

Phillipians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. KJV

13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. New Living Translation

Be energetic in your life of salvation, reverent and sensitive before God. That energy is God's energy, an energy deep within you, God himself willing and working at what will give him the most pleasure.  Message Translation

Where is the Scriptural reference supporting that man has a free will?  It must be under a term other than "free will" because I looked, there's no references matching that phrase.

If God is "in" me manifesting his will "through" me, how can I still claim that I have a "free" will of my own?

Some translations contain the word freewill in reference to a voluntary offering.

If we are not free at all, even within the contraints of boundries, how can we be told to make a free will (voluntary) offering?

Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.

[Molly]

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

Molly , for sure, I no need to answer for Scott...

but you might find the answer to be!""""""""""""""""no""""""""""""""""""""""".

The flesh, which is the HEART and Mind , our soul,..DIES,...has Nothing to do with the Mortal BODY...its an error many make...
Alas Many, combine the Flesh to be that of the BODY..tis NOT.

To be Born again, is to first  die to self, MIND \ HEART our soul, so we be renewed with a Right mind, The Mind of Christ and BORN ANEW...


I dont know how many times I state this, I sound like a Broken Record....His Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

therefore we are No longer carnal Minded, which Is death , we are SPIRIT, LIFE born anew In HIM...

gee, sis, poor paul, his head must have hurt Kiddo...
:icon_flower:

His Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

That's a beautiful way to put it, his flesh never saw corruption--that was his own.  So it's a pure place to live in this world.

The seed which is sown in corruption is Christ.

The seed has to die--and we die with it--



Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.


1 Cor 15
A seed must die before it can sprout from the ground.


It is sown in the corruption [of our ground] and raised in the incorruption of his flesh.


1 Cor 15
37Wheat seeds and all other seeds look different from the sprouts that come up. 38This is because God gives everything the kind of body he wants it to have.


Like you said, He did not allow his holy one to see corruption.

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


His uncorrupted, incorruptible flesh becomes our body--

raised in honor, raised in glory--before the throne of God.


19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

--Hebrews 10

The carnal mind is enmity [hostility, opposition] against God.  But we have overcome the carnal mind of man.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

[martincisneros]

Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

I would like to verify if I understand that verse correctly.

The stone is Jesus and/or believing in Father/Son/HS
When you fall (turn to God) your sinful body will be broken. Meaning converted to something good.
If you don't turn to God in this life the conversion process will not only break your bones (figure of speech) but completly grind them to powder.
Meaning accepting salvation now is a far better choice than having it hammered in you thick skull in the afterlife.

Correct?

:goodpost:

[rosered]

 

 Hi  ya guys ,
  been reading all these posts ..........
one simple way I understand will and free will is will can mean want /desire /will   and  our desire changes as the Lords Spirit works within us  
we  want / desire will to please the Lord  and need more of Him  , and that was something I lacked big time  ,and saw in Jesus Christ / Spirit /SON OF GOD
 His desires become  the Fathers Will/desires..  we also  hunger and thirst    desire/  want after this righteousness  and wait and want for more of Him  to complete us , I know that I never  had desire /willed anything of him when   my flesh  was in the world and wanted  everything in it , I still remained empty and  it was never enough  
the Lord is all I need and finally realizing that  has  given me tremendous  rest /peace     and that is what we desire /want will for everyone  right ? is this not Gods will also  ?
  peace .. rose
that to me in a nutshell   is what it means  for me anyways

[bobf]

bobf,

I'm sure God has control of many things.
If he desires I can control every atom in the universe.
I'm sure He at times forces/guides our will to certain actions. We will just think it was our own choice.
Basicly I say/accept God can choose to have  0-100% control.
I think most agree His control is >0%
But is it 100%?
I simply do not know. I can't find any solid proof for it.
I could have chosen to ignore your post.
I could have chosen to make it a short "don't agree"
I could have....

To me it really 100% sure feels I wrote this message out of free will (ignoring teh fact that I find it polite to answer posts direct to me)
But how can I know God didn't put all the words I typed into my mind making?
I just can't proof such things.

I think you've expressed basically what I believe as well as doubts I have about God's 100% control over every detail.  One thing though, I don't think it has to be an either/or sitiation.  100% God does not imply 0% me.  90% God does not mean 10% me.  Events can have multiple causes and so can choices.

Some verses to ponder regarding this:

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Did Paul labor?  Yes, he said he "I labored".  So Paul labored >0%.  Yet in some sense Paul said he did not labor.  So he labored 0% in that sense and only the grace of God that was with him labored.  Making it 100% grace.  Does not seem to add up to 100%.

2 Corintians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Who sent Paul's thorn in the flesh?  [1] It was a messagener of Satan.  [2] God sent it too, since only God would have "given to me...lest I should be exalted above measure".  One event, two causes, two purposes.  Buffet & humble.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

What Joseph's brother's intended for evil, God intended for good.  One action, one choice (to harm and sell Joseph or not) had two (or more) wills in operation to bring it about.

Lastly, about as many times as it says that God hardened pharoah's heart it also says that pharoah hardened his own heart.  Were these "hardenings" discrete events with God and pharoah alternately hardening pharoah's heart??  I don't think so.  I think each time God hardened pharaoah's heart that pharoah was choosing to harden his own heart.

I mean, can I not harden your heart by being rude and nasty to you?  But if I do, you are still choosing to harden your own heart too.

[WhiteWings]

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Did Paul labor?  Yes, he said he "I labored".  So Paul labored >0%.  Yet in some sense Paul said he did not labor.  So he labored 0% in that sense and only the grace of God that was with him labored.  Making it 100% grace.  Does not seem to add up to 100%.

Hi Bob,
Now we basicly agree there is not much more to answer. I don't fully understand the concept so I can't go into it any deeper as I did a few posts back.
I did quote a part of your post that I want to answer with some joke/lesson I once read:

A man came at heavens gate and Jesus sat at the door.
Jesus explained the man need to score a 100 points to enter Heaven. => scoring points is labor
So Jesus said tell me your good deeds and I write down the score.
Man: I went to church every week.
Jesus: Great. 3 points.
Man: I never cheated my wife.
Jesus: Nice! 1 point.
Man: I helped those in need.
Jesus: Sounds good. 2 points
The man started to sweat.
Jesus noticed it and asked why are you scared?
Well said the man I just told you all my good deeds in life and I still come 94 points short.
How can I ever enter Heaven? By the grace of God?
Jesus jumped up and shouted: 94 points !

Bit of topic but I had to share this lovely lesson  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

accidental duplicate post  :mblush:  which means I only have 921 to my credit for those keeping score!  :laughing7:

[willieH]

willieH: How-Dee -- brother Paul!  :cloud9:

willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

So God ordained your disobedience, then subjects you to the shame of something that he caused?

YES... for it was HIS WILL... which was enacted... and was MY part of HIS PURPOSE in revealing to ALL His Children, the difference between G & E...  :dontknow:

JUDGMENT is NOT a bad thing... it is to be EMBRACED... for it is PART of the RECONCILIATION process of the PERFECT and ALMIGHTY YHVH GOD we worship, even though portions of that process might appear strange to us while we are yet in the FINITE viewpoint we observe from...  :Chinscratch:

Words in BLACK/brackets are obviously mine to make my point:

Rom 9:18-21  ...therefore HE hath mercy on whom ["usn's"] HE WILL and whom HE WILL, ...he HARDENTH... [The "whoms" subjected to that WILL being "usn's"]

Thou wilt say unto me:  [as you just did] Why does HE yet, FIND FAULT [hold willieH accountable for using emoticons]?  For WHO [willieH using emoticons] hath resisted HIS WILL? 

Nay but O man WHO art THOU [brother PaulH] that repliest against God?  Shall the thing formed [willieH] say unto Him that formed, "why hast THOU [YHVH] made me thus? [Making willieH either in a hardened emoticon using state, or merciful non-emoticon using state]

Hath NOT the POTTER [YHVH] power over the CLAY [willieH], of the same lump to make one unto HONOR [willieH NOT using emoticons] and another [willieH using emoticons] unto DISHONOR?

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

I did quote a part of your post that I want to answer with some joke/lesson I once read:

A man came at heavens gate and Jesus sat at the door.
Jesus explained the man need to score a 100 points to enter Heaven. => scoring points is labor
So Jesus said tell me your good deeds and I write down the score.
Man: I went to church every week.
Jesus: Great. 3 points.
Man: I never cheated my wife.
Jesus: Nice! 1 point.
Man: I helped those in need.
Jesus: Sounds good. 2 points
The man started to sweat.
Jesus noticed it and asked why are you scared?
Well said the man I just told you all my good deeds in life and I still come 94 points short.
How can I ever enter Heaven? By the grace of God?
Jesus jumped up and shouted: 94 points !

Bit of topic but I had to share this lovely lesson  :HeartThrob:

:laugh:   :goodpost:

My wife and I just had a great chuckle bro...  :ty: :Urock:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[rosered]

  That was a good lesson WW  :cloud9:   !  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

I'm glad you liked it Willie and (http://www.victorianrose.org/images/red_rose2.jpg)

It's weird I reopend and reread this trival post about 10 times since I posted it...
I don't want to minimize any of the work Father/Son/HS have done sofar, and will do in the future, but I think pretty well summarizes a lot of the UR message.
The man earned 6 points with his works and Jesus paid the remaining 94 points with His crucifixion....

[Taffy]

accidental duplicate post  :mblush:  which means I only have 921 to my credit for those keeping score!  :laughing7:

Hey  bro ,Be nice to Martin and he made  pump ya total  like his..in zillions.... :laughing7:.... :happy3: :happy3: :icon_flower:

[rosered]

   Yes !!it  IS SO  true ,  :grin: seesm the Law and grace have two  covenants  and promises  to it .. Taff you know this one well bro !

     a slave  owes his master   a debt for his life and good service 
But a Son   has    inherited all his Fathers goods ,
  because the are Kindred and Born into it !  :2c:

[Taffy]

   Yes !!it  IS SO  true ,  :grin: seesm the Law and grace have two  covenants  and promises  to it .. Taff you know this one well bro !

     a slave  owes his master   a debt for his life and good service 
But a Son   has    inherited all his Fathers goods ,
  because the are Kindred and Born into it !  :2c:

:icon_flower: