Free will and eternal hell

[Molly]

Christ has free will.

Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

[CHB]

(John 5:30) I can of mine own self DO NOTHING. (Verse 19) The Son can DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

Jesus said he could do nothing of himself and neither can we.

CHB

[jabcat]

(John 5:30) I can of mine own self DO NOTHING. (Verse 19) The Son can DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

Jesus said he could do nothing of himself and neither can we.

CHB

Romans 11: 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

I believe God allows us/requires us to make choices within certain parameters as He sets them.  Sometimes I make the wrong choices within those parameters, at times grieveously so, and I am then accountable and responsible for my sin.  However, to use an "old-timey" term, "God is in the savin' biniz", and He even takes my failures and uses them for my (eventual) good and for His glory...."all things work together for good..."    I don't call that free will, it seems more of a responsibility to make certain choices, again, within certain parameters, and then with certain consequences.  But ultimately, God directs our steps.

Proverbs 20:24   Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? 
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart devises his way: but the LORD directs his steps.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will? 6 to the praise of his glorious grace....

Thank God for His mercy "to this clump of dirt".  God's blessing, James.

[martincisneros]

In order for man to have free will he would have to know the future. We can not know what the next second will bring, so how can we determine anything?

Perhaps this is where the argument/confusion has been.  The measure of free will that we have is a measure of self motivation rather than self determination.  It's not the same thing as sowing and reaping which is determining our external circumstances by the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God and doing what God says when God says to do it, often in the giving realm while expecting a harvest of righteousness in the areas that the Word of God has told us to call them forth for our spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life.  Again, the measure of free will that we have is a measure of self motivation, but this is entirely different from walking the Covenants of the Scriptures out by faith between the "Amen" and the "There it is."  Entirely different things and it's sounding like this is where all of the confusion has been around here on this subject.

[CHB]

Here is a short article about free will by Mike Vinson that I thought was really good.

CHB

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brothers,


I've been meditating on 'after the council of his own will' and I have a couple of questions about some of the extremly incidental things that happen in life. I was getting in my car, and I dropped my keys; bent over, picked them up, unlocked the door then got in the car. Did God will that to happen? Why? I understand it's because God made gravity, but I can't understand how or why he willed me to drop the soap in the shower. I agree with all your biblical enlightenment, but I'm stuck on this petty thought.


Thanks Guys,
M____
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Good morning M____,

Thank you for your question.


Just so you know, I too, had the very same question you have here when I first started considering the extent of God's sovereignty. I had been taught that God was sovereign over the outcome of all things but that we are all like a dog on a leash. God has us under His control but He doesn't bother with whether we decide to go to the left to visit another dog or go to the right to do some other business.



I remember a minister teaching on this subject once said "My sister-in-law was canning peaches yesterday, and she dropped a quart of peaches on her foot and broke her toe. I do not think that God had that all planned out from before the foundation of the world!" He was very emphatic about God not being sovereign over all the petty details of every day life.



When I heard that sermon, I agreed with that point. It seemed ridiculous to me that God would even bother to involve Himself with such menial details. He's God, so surely God would delegate the concerns for such details to someone else, someone like me. But then I would never choose to drop a quart of peaches on my foot and break my toe, or for that matter I wouldn't even choose to drop my keys.



To use your words, this is indeed all very "petty." So really all we need to know is what the Bible teaches us about God's concern with petty details. If you read that entire paper, After The Counsel of His Own Will, then you know that God does indeed delegate spirits to visit the prophet Daniel to let Daniel know that the kingdom of Babylon will one day be replaced by another kingdom. But it is also God who sent Satan to try Job and an evil spirit to trouble King Saul, and a lying spirit to put lies in the mouths of all of King Ahab's prophets. You and I might think that those are pretty significant things and therefore worthy of God's valuable attention, but surely He doesn't even care whether you drop your keys, the preacher's sister-in-law drops a quart of peaches on her foot or I bump my head on a pipe while doing my construction work.



What do the scriptures teach about such petty details. Would either of us dare to say that an omniscient God didn't know that any of those things was going to happen? I for one would not be willing to make such a presumptuous statement. I am convinced that God truly is all knowing down to the least detail and that working "all things" means all things.



But I was not always of such a mind set. Ten or twelve years ago my middle son, Dallas, who is now in his mid thirties, came to me and told me that he had been reading a book on the study of fractals. Fractals is just another word for 'chaos.' Dallas informed me that according to what he had learned from this science book on the study of fractals, that in reality, everything that appears to us to be chaotic, is in reality confined within the laws of nature and in particular the law that states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That is a law of nature and of science which cannot be broken. Dallas's conclusion from reading that totally secular book, was that God is therefore in complete and total control of even the smallest details of life. It is not something that taxes His mind or overloads God's hard drive. It is just simply true. It is a law of science and nature. It is God ordained.



But it took two whole years and many lively discussions around the table before I came to agree with my son on that subject. The beast within me wanted to at least be able to decide whether I went to the right to meet another person or went to the left to keep from meeting that person. Surely I was sovereign over the smallest details in my life! Surely God was not the cause of every single little detail!



What changed my mind? What changed my mind was what the word of God teaches about God's concerns for the smallest of matters. Of course what really changed my mind was Christ in me, but Christ in me is His word in me, and this is what that Word teaches about the smallest of details. These are the words of Christ himself:

Matt 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Now that is pretty "petty" information. But, lest we think that we have misunderstood His point our Lord continues:

Matt 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matt 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

There it is; "all of the hairs of your head" and all of the hairs of my head and all of the hairs of every single person who has ever lived are "all numbered." That is how aware of "petty details" is our God. Are we to believe that God concerns Himself with the number of the hairs on our heads, but not with the smallest thoughts in our minds? How utterly foolish. Every physical detail of scripture is telling us something about the thoughts of our minds. Every word of scripture is concerned with the spirit behind those words. The "hairs of your head" represent the thought that caused you to drop your keys in the first place, and then the thought that told you to pick the keys up. That is why "the hairs of your head" were used as an example, to let us know that there is no matter which is too small for our God's attention to detail.



The truth is that there are no "really important matters" without all the "petty details" which must be in place to sustain and support all of those 'really important matters.' It's like being a king. There would be no king without the king's subjects and all of the petty details of the lives of the king's subjects.


Here is an old saying which is based upon the very Biblical subject we have been discussing:


For want of a nail - That large consequences may follow from inattention to small details, usually something similar to the following: "For want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe the horse was lost, for want of a horse the general was lost, for want of a general the battle was lost, for want of a battle the war was lost, for want of a war the empire was lost — an empire lost for the want of a nail!"



"Large consequences may follow from inattention to small details." But our God has "every hair on our heads numbered" so we really do not need to worry about anything. When we are given the faith to accept His total sovereignty and not just the partial sovereignty of Babylon, along with the faith to believe that comes "the peace that passes all understanding."


I will let the apostle Paul close for me:

Php 4:6  Don't fret or worry. Instead of worrying, pray. Let petitions and praises shape your worries into prayers, letting God know your concerns.
Php 4:7  Before you know it, a sense of God's wholeness, everything coming together for good, will come and settle you down. It's wonderful what happens when Christ displaces worry at the center of your life . (ASV)

Or as the king James Version puts it:

Php 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I have given you the Biblical answer to your question. I hope and pray that the Lord will give you the faith to receive His Words on this subject.

Your brother in Christ.

Mike

[Molly]

You can't have obedience without free will.  Obedience is meaningless without free will.


Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[Paul Hazelwood]

You can't have obedience without free will.  Obedience is meaningless without free will.


Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not arguing here, posing the point behind what your saying.

We can argue over definitions and what that does is place the discussion in a theoretical light.  This definition, that definition, etc etc, not forced, free to etc etc.


How does God Save all mankind if mankind is free to say no to him and it appears that man does do that quite regularly?

If obedience is only meaningful through freewill, how does all mankind eventually become obedient?

[Molly]

You can't have obedience without free will.  Obedience is meaningless without free will.


Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not arguing here, posing the point behind what your saying.

We can argue over definitions and what that does is place the discussion in a theoretical light.  This definition, that definition, etc etc, not forced, free to etc etc.


How does God Save all mankind if mankind is free to say no to him and it appears that man does do that quite regularly?

If obedience is only meaningful through freewill, how does all mankind eventually become obedient?

well, now you have an agenda.  But if your agenda requires you to say that Christ has no free will, and therefore, was not really obedient--maybe it's time to rethink.

Romans 8
21 for that creature [for and that creature] shall be delivered from servage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.

[martincisneros]

How does God Save all mankind if mankind is free to say no to him and it appears that man does do that quite regularly?

If obedience is only meaningful through freewill, how does all mankind eventually become obedient?

Free will doesn't keep God from having a free will.  It's the Arminian theologians that often argue, and popularize the argument, that man's free will implies a demension of sovereignty that God won't touch -- which is found absolutely nowhere in Scripture.  The Bible is filled to overflowing with God getting His way no matter what, and no matter how artistic He has to become in His art of persuasion.  Thomas, Saul of Tarsus, the disciples on the road to Emmaus, and Elymas the sorcerer in the book of Acts were all condemned for not believing the Gospel, but Christ Jesus persuaded them to believe: one with visual evidence, two with blindness, and others by being called stupid fools by a Voice that sounds like the rushing of a mighty river that marred their unbelief forever and transformed them into evangelists, prophets, and teachers.  Man's free will throughout the Scriptures of both Old and New Testament has frequently run into the brick wall of God's judgment.  God's judgment is His nonnegotiable stand on His will. 

Besides, Biblically, the salvation or eternal rejection of Adam and Eve is the only thing to be proven to make a case for either ET or UR.  Many UR folks don't like the doctrine of "Original Sin," but I think it's a beautiful doctrine because when properly presented it CRAMS UR down the throat of those that believe in it because of the "MUCH MORE" of what Christ Jesus has accomplished.  It's simply a version of the Scriptural doctrine of the one and the many equalling the all, or the one standing for the many bringing this or that upon all.  It's in Isaiah, Romans, Hebrews and various other places -- whatever anyone chooses to call it.  The Scriptures teach that as one man was the damnation of us all, whether that entails oblivion or eternal torment, the obedient death of another man has brought righteousness to all, whether that means temporary torment or instantaneous glorification upon all at their moment of death or the resurrection. 

I think that people get confused between "Inherited Righteousness" and "Inheriting the Kingdom" because though the Bible implies both it's only through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and growing in His grace that we come to understand both.  Inheriting the Kingdom is over in the area of what 2Corinthians chapter 9 describes as the multiplied fruits of your righteousness [implicitly from God in Christ].  Romans calls righteousness a free gift and the measure of the abundance of His grace, but "inheriting the Kingdom" which is the distinguishing of the haves from the have nots in the Kingdom is something you strive to enter into because the gate is narrow to reigning in life through Christ Jesus. 

It's through the Bread and Cup which is too often, too easily set aside as foolishness by Christians.  The Bread envisions His broken body, broken for you with every artery burst and Blood covering you and the whole sacrifice.  While the Cup IS THE NEW COVENANT dipped in that holy Blood.  It becomes the realization that all of the Blood that I'm seeing in my struggles isn't mine.  It's my High Priest's that protects me, gives me the hidden manna of His flesh, and dines with me in the presence of my enemies causing me to fear no evil because He's with me protecting me with His rod and staff as we celebrate the anointing of oil that He's lavishing on me and causing me to dwell in the many mansions of His Father forever.  Life is no longer about doing, but about being at the feet of the Shepherd, like my cat is at my feet right now in total contentment purring away.  When every care is sufficiently cast upon Him through our free will, He gives us the nations for our inheritance. 

If there is no free will, then there are no cares of this life.  The cares of this life are what we disobey Him in taking upon ourselves.  And if there is no free will, then there is no casting the whole of our cares upon Him so that He can exalt us because of our humility before the Bread and the Cup and to follow Him wherever He goes.  If there is no free will, then there is no longer any being blessed with faithful Abraham, according to Galatians 3, and we're no longer heirs of the world together with him.  Because that is entered into by relating to Christ Jesus the way that Abraham related to Melchezedec.  Melchezedec didn't force the Bread and Cup down Abraham's throat.  The salvation of the world isn't based upon the belief of absolutely every individual in the world in Christ -- although they're all destined to, and every knee will bow as every tongue exuberantly, thunderously praises Him that Jesus Christ is Lord. 

The salvation of the world is based upon the keeping of the Bread and Cup between God and the believer because the promise of being heir of the world and of the heathen belongs to those who have the faith of Abraham.  But every individual on the planet isn't required to express the faith of Abraham before God will pour out His Holy Spirit IN FULLNESS upon ALL flesh and remove the veil that's covered all of the people, according to Isaiah, Joel, various Psalms, and various New Testament Apostles and Prophets.  If necessary, Christ will drag all of mankind to Himself solely on the belief of Abraham that He would.  But we're offered participation in the divine nature, according to 2Peter 1, Romans, Ephesians, and various other passages and books of the Bible.  We choose to repent, according to Acts 17, Acts 20, 1Peter 1, and Revelation 7, but He chooses the preordained paths for us to walk and the intensity of the riches of His grace that we'll experience according to Ephesians 2.

[WhiteWings]

I remember a minister teaching on this subject once said "My sister-in-law was canning peaches yesterday, and she dropped a quart of peaches on her foot and broke her toe. I do not think that God had that all planned out from before the foundation of the world!" He was very emphatic about God not being sovereign over all the petty details of every day life.

When I heard that sermon, I agreed with that point. It seemed ridiculous to me that God would even bother to involve Himself with such menial details.

That's when we look as a human that's limited in every aspect. But for God even the whole salvation process is a petty thing. His possibilities are so vast (unlimited) that compared to that everything is a petty thing.
We delegate petty things, or ignore then. Why? Often because we can't handle more than a handful of things at the same time. Father hasn't that limitation. Basicly I'm saying we just can't make the claim 'to petty for God'
The writer argues it's a petty thing. I can just as well argue it is a test. Do you swear when you drop your keys? Do you get irritated and get nasty at innocent bystanders that have nothing to do with you dropping your keys (shifting blame)

That is a law of nature and of science which cannot be broken. Dallas's conclusion from reading that totally secular book, was that God is therefore in complete and total control of even the smallest details of life.

An unproveble claim. God can indeed control every detail like dropping your keys. Those keys drop down not up due to the laws of nature. But that doesn't prove God controled the dropping of the keys. He created the laws of nature and stricktly speaking he can take a nap and the laws of nature keep working.
Just like the mechanics that made your car don't have to be present every inch you drive.

Surely God was not the cause of every single little detail!

A claim that is just that a claim until you can back it up with scripture or holy inspiration.

Matt 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Matt 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matt 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

That indeed point to God taking notice of detail.
The point is what does God do with all that information? To me it mostly is some warning/comforting words that nothing escapes the vast knowledge of God. But that in itself doesn't prove He uses that knowledge for contant control.



Although I don't fully agree still a very nice article :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

I dug up school pic of you Taffman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/TinFoilHat002.jpg/800px-TinFoilHat002.jpg

yas certifiable WW,,,,..I got hair, but , never the less, send me one of those hats, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...

That was before the radiation leak in yer hat I assume  :laughing7:

[pneuma]

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

No,

Taffy gave you an answer that lines up with what I am talking about sis.

[davidsulem]

Free will doesn't keep God from having a free will.

I agree with you  Martincisneros, and with your understanding of man's freewill.

God has a freewill, and since we are created  in the image of God means that we also have freewill. It is as simple as that.

[pneuma]

As long as nobody crosses the line in saying that anybody's talking trash because they're full of... beep! then I don't care if this thread turns into 750 pages.  It's when somebody gets all heated and needs to go sit on the (http://martincisneros.freeforums.org/files/martincisneros/smilies/toilet.gif) but doesn't and decides to take it out on someone on a thread on these boards that I have a problem with it.  Seems to me that the more free that our will is, then the higher degree of God's Sovereignty is at work to finally reclaim every life.  But if everyone is already on puppet strings, then it's less effort and less wisdom on God's part to finally bring everyone in.  All He'd have to do is yank all of the dog chains and get the dogs into the house on the New Earth or beyond.  To me, the more of a chess game it winds up being between God and the fallen versions of His image, then the greater glory and the greater contentment for Himself and for all when the last rascal has been checkmated.  To me, the more free will that's involved, then the more active God's plan would necessarily have to be -- though I'm not implying that God's reacting since all of the promises, judgments, prizes, and every drop of Blood for the successful transfusion was prepared ages ago.

Has anyone thought that through?  That the less free will, which would mean the less conscious that each of us were, then God's plan would seem to involve less than Him simply arranging the bodies and talking heads as He wishes.  The portraits of Him in Scripture as a warrior seem less dynamic and less meaningful and the wisdom He'd have to share out of all of this would seem less meaningful.  After all, how much suffering is there if free will is virtually nonexistent?  Did God personally dress any of you in physical clothing this morning?  Animals seem to have free will.  Walk out into a field and slap a bull with everything you've got and when he comes after you it's not going to be a matter of instinct alone.  It'll be because you really angered him and he's made up his mind and decided with his own free will that you're going to be mashed, stomped, kicked, and hit until you're nothing more than grease and minced meat!  Which brings me to another question or two:

Is all of the violence in the world being orchestrated by God?  What about the shootings, the thefts, the sexual deviancy, the false religions, the false politicians, the mental and bodily torture, the trafficing in millions of human slaves, the blasphemies, the scalding and slowly dismembering abortions, the twisting of God's Words, etc.??

God neither orchestrates it, nor uses it.  He uses His Word, His Faith, His Blood, and His Anointing to get everything done.  And in saying this, I'm not negating the evil spoken of in Isaiah that God created in judging Israel with the events leading up to the babylonian captivity, and neither am I attempting to take away from the Scriptures that talk about the redemptive events of Jesus' life, glorification, sufferings, and resurrection as having been 100% orchestrated by God.  But to me, it doesn't follow from that that all of the evils in the world are being orchestrated by God.  Since Jesus is the Saviour, it would just follow that the events that are ongoing in Jesus' life are continually being orchestrated by God in order to restore the whole Creation to Himself.  James chapter 1 says not to say that God tempts any man with temptations, testings, and trials, but each one that's lead astray and away are being messed with by their own unruly desires; undisciplined mind, emotions, and mouth; and by one's own pride which God resists but gives grace to the humble. 

St. Paul said that God absolutely always provides the way of escape in a way that you may be able to bare it and get away from what's about to tempt you out of your mind.  If the way of escape is always orchestrated by God, yet the way is not always taken by man, then how could there not be free will?  The Bible says that God provides the way of escape, and St. Paul's strong language would imply that it's always there and that there's no excuse for not taking it, yet people all of the time don't rightly discern the Bread and the Cup and by failing to judge themselves by rightly discerning His sufferings in their behalf, then they're not chastened by the Lord in those situations and wind up being judged with the world.

Martin again I have to say Amen, I to see man having a free will as enhancing Gods soverignty.

[pneuma]

They remind me that God is the potter and I am the clay.

Hi ya sis, tis true God is the potter and we are the clay, but did you know clay has a will of its own and always trys to return to it clay form?

[Taffy]

im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

I dug up school pic of you Taffman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/TinFoilHat002.jpg/800px-TinFoilHat002.jpg

yas certifiable WW,,,,..I got hair, but , never the less, send me one of those hats, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...

That was before the radiation leak in yer hat I assume  :laughing7:

OK! OK! Ya crazy Dutchman...heres a recent pic.....v














(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/perso3d/3d182.gif)

[Paul Hazelwood]

You can't have obedience without free will.  Obedience is meaningless without free will.


Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not arguing here, posing the point behind what your saying.

We can argue over definitions and what that does is place the discussion in a theoretical light.  This definition, that definition, etc etc, not forced, free to etc etc.


How does God Save all mankind if mankind is free to say no to him and it appears that man does do that quite regularly?

If obedience is only meaningful through freewill, how does all mankind eventually become obedient?

well, now you have an agenda.  But if your agenda requires you to say that Christ has no free will, and therefore, was not really obedient--maybe it's time to rethink.

Romans 8
21 for that creature [for and that creature] shall be delivered from servage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.

Yes, I have an agenda Molly, it's called asking people to answer questions.   :omg:


How is the creature delivered if it does not want to be?

[Molly]

Yes, I have an agenda Molly, it's called asking people to answer questions.   


How is the creature delivered if it does not want to be?

Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

[WhiteWings]

Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

I would like to verify if I understand that verse correctly.

The stone is Jesus and/or believing in Father/Son/HS
When you fall (turn to God) your sinful body will be broken. Meaning converted to something good.
If you don't turn to God in this life the conversion process will not only break your bones (figure of speech) but completly grind them to powder.
Meaning accepting salvation now is a far better choice than having it hammered in you thick skull in the afterlife.

Correct?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yes, I have an agenda Molly, it's called asking people to answer questions.   


How is the creature delivered if it does not want to be?

Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

This an explanation of free will in what way?

[Paul Hazelwood]

What free will concerning our life and spirituality to me is this.



God is a purifying spiritual fire that my misunderstanding fears, I am free to throw gasoline on that fire all I want,  I am free to call the fire department to put it out, I am free to go run and hide but none of that freedom will prevent me from being engulfed in the flames.


If I am in a burning building I am free to run out,  I am free to stay where I am at,  it may not appear to be freedom, but in reality I am free within the circumstances I am in.  Regaurdless of how few options there is, there is an amount of freedom that exists.

A fireman comes in and I am free to jump in his arms or I am free to run away,  but where will I run?  Confusion and doubt and fear are the circumstances,  but I am free to operate within those circumstances.   The fireman has a Job and thats to save people.

I am FREE to fight the fireman,  but I can only win the fight, if I am more powerful than the fireman, in human terms, that may be possible, in spiritual terms, God is the fireman and I am not more powerful yet I am still free to fight him.

When God drags me out of the burning building I am free to hate God for dragging me out.   (and you know what????  Sometime I do feel my hate at God for dragging me out of places)

However........   God is going to keep dragging me out of the building till one day my FREE WILL TIRES OF FIGHTING.

In other words,  God shapes and fires us till we retain the shape, then we will understand the thing of beauty we have become.

[pneuma]

In other words,  God shapes and fires us till we retain the shape, then we will understand the thing of beauty we have become.

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

Yes, I have an agenda Molly, it's called asking people to answer questions.   


How is the creature delivered if it does not want to be?

Matthew 21:44
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

This an explanation of free will in what way?

You have a choice, Life or Death.  Choose life.

[WhiteWings]

In other words,  God shapes and fires us till we retain the shape, then we will understand the thing of beauty we have become.

Beautiful quoute for your 666th post Paul  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Paul,

If you choose death it is just a detour to life! :HeartThrob: