Free will and eternal hell

[WhiteWings]

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

He that is, also sets us in such perimeters, which means ,we can not choose OUTside what hes HAS set In motion...

again, anything which is LIMITED ( check your dictionary) is not FREE...., all choices ,come by cause and effect....we CHoose what we Eat Because we are Hungry, ...we choose our college to how it best suits our purpose,we choose to pick out NOSE because its full of Boggies....

We can no start a fight over defenitions of free and limited. That would be useless because I agree with your prison example.

your choice was either to respond to My post or not

As if I really have a choice not to respond to such a superb post  :laughing7:

[Taffy]

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

Based on that,  do you have the free will to live or not to live a life devoted to God within those boundaries?

not according to scripture....or else we claim the credit ,..He leads us to repentance, he draws us to him ,....

To Him the Glory.

what restricted many of Old was the Bondage ( conditioning)of LAW, which prevented them going through the veil and become established....the hardness of their HEART and Miinds....

They were Bound within the perimeters of Centuries of Tradition....if one is BOUND ,then how can one be FREE?

Pauls case epitomises it...

thing is,, we dont live in such days and have  the benefit of History to look back on..  not for second do I  believe I take the  Glory of choice by choosing HIM....I believe I was LED to such a Place through experience which Ultimately led to HIS PATH.....so many rds to choose which for me lead Only to One destination....

[Paul Hazelwood]

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

Based on that,  do you have the free will to live or not to live a life devoted to God within those boundaries?

not according to scripture....or else we claim the credit ,..He leads us to repentance, he draws us to him ,....

To Him the Glory.

what restricted many of Old was the Bondage ( conditioning)of LAW, which prevented them going through the veil and become established....the heartness of their HEART and Miinds....

They were Bound within the perimeters of Centuries of Tradition....if one is BOUND ,then how can one be FREE?

Pauls case epitomises it...

thing is,, we dont live in such days and have  the benefit of History to look back on..  not for second do I  believe I take the  Glory of choice by choosing HIM....I believe I was LED to such a Place through experience which Ultimately led to HIS PATH.....so many rds to choose which for me lead Only to One destination....

So then, my friend who continues to do drugs and cause pain to his wife is right when he says it is not his fault?

[willieH]

willHE-H:   :laughing7:

Hey brother M... If what you say below is so... then it is OUR WILL which empowers us to OBEY or DISOBEY...

Meaning that CHRIST is just a "by-stander"... for if OBEDIENCE is accomplished by our ability to CHOOSE it... then He is not the source of that OBEDIENCE, ...we are...

And HE is in fact, not "authoring and FINISHING" [completing our faith]... we are.

We have free will.  There's no question about that, as the child that was told to sit down who grumbled to himself that he might be sitting on the outside, but he's standing on the inside.  What people confuse for a lack of free will is the current level of futility to existance:

for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. (Romans 7:18)

Sorry to disagree dear brother, but I see a different thing taught in the Scriptures.

The "HOW to PERFORM" portion is the resulting CHOICES that Paul is making bro...

That which EMPOWERS one to CHOOSE to "DISOBEY" ones OWN WILL, ...by OBEYING GOD's WILL... is GOD...

If GOD is the source of the POWER to OBEY... then OUR WILL is enslaved to itself... for we cannot OBEY OF OURSELVES (as Paul notes in the quote you noted above)... it means we are ENSLAVED to the resultant DISOBEDIENCE within the "power" we utilize to "CHOOSE"...

And then talking about after Jesus was raised from the dead, the Bible says: "For the creation was subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20)

This only makes my point bro...  If the "creation" was SUBJECTED to futility... then the stated SUBJECTION is not of their doing... or origination...  which is WHY Divine JUSTIFICATION (Grace)... is JUST!

HERE is an example of what I am saying:

If I were to send you into a store while holding a gun to your wifes head, and instructed you to steal a piece of bubblegum in order to save her life... is the theft due to your will?  Or is it due to mine?  (Should you be due punishment for the theft?)

Of course, it is due to mine... for you did as you did, in order to save your wife. 

If later on, you discover that ...I... am the owner of the store... than I am JUSTIFIED to NOT bring charges against YOU for STEALING - eh?

For it was I, ...who sent YOU to STEAL... from MY STORE...  :dontknow:

When Jesus had shattered death, He left us with the announcement of His conquest over death and the promise of life for all, but He ascended into heaven without having actually set all of Creation free because of the choices, rewards, and punishments that are yet lacking to be made for the systematic redevelopment of all of Creation -- not only before God, but in relation to each molecule in relation to every other molecule.  The New Testament presupposes free will in all that it tells us to do:

"He who would love life
      And see good days,
       Let him refrain his tongue from evil,
      And his lips from speaking deceit.
       11 Let him turn away from evil and do good;
       Let him seek peace and pursue it.
       12 For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
       And His ears are open to their prayers;
      But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil." (1Peter 3:10-12)

This only notes that GOD is set against every WILL which is ENSLAVED to ITSELF, and NOT aligned with HIS WILL, which is FREE...

GOD is set against EVIL -- which is wrought by MEN who's choices, which are apart from the Him and ENSLAVED to their SELFISHNESS...  :dontknow:  (James 1:14)

These three verses give us something to exercise our free will on, until we've reclaimed our tongues from the fires of Gehenna, according to this passage being compared with James chapter 3.  The tongue can no man tame in the way that one would tame a horse or some other beast of the field.  It takes a progressive yeilding to the Holy Spirit, which, again, involves our free will as far as how quickly we become the most submitted to the Word of Christ.

This portion only makes my point bro... We can only become FREE, as it is CREATED in us by the WORD which thereby brings forth OBEDIENCE... and redeems it from the Natural WILL's ...ENSLAVEMENT to itself... which is DISOBEDIENT to the Holy Spirit.

There can be no just punishment without presupposing freedom of choice to cooperate in playing one's very tiny part in the conformity with the image of Christ process.

GOD is not in the punishment business... the sufferings we experience here are the active JUDGMENT which comes against SINFUL FLESHLY behaviors... which end in DEATH of the FLESH. (the "vessels" of DISHONOR -- FITTED for DESTRUCTION...  this "fitting" is preordained, or predestined)

GRACE is the JUSTIFICATION (which is essentially DIVINE JUSTICE)... that returns that which IT drove into the CAPTIVITY (disobedience), that it is found within (Jer 29:14) ...and which said CAPTIVITY was generated by GOD...

CHRIST suffered in this life, because HE took upon Himself our SPIRITUAL misbehaviors, and nailed them to His cross... redeeming us to LIFE in the SPIRIT

Paul mentions this process in Romans 9, and notes that GOD is just in creating TWO vessels, one CREATED [FITTED] for DESTRUCTION, the other for GLORY...

That which is "FITTED", ....is accomplished by the "FITTER", ...not the "FITTEE"...

This teaching is plainly found in several places in the NT...  (Rom 11:32 / Rom 9:21 / Rom 8:20) and displays that our DISOBEDIENCE is DIVINELY ordained... as is our REDEMPTION ...FROM it...

GOD "concluded" all in UNBELIEF (which is the state of SIN)...
GOD "subjected" the Creation to vanity without regard to "WILL"
GOD "fitted" us (our fleshly vessel) for DESTRUCTION of His WILL

The New Testament, through St. Paul, teaches repentance.  This is impossible without the free will to do so.

I have already posted the Scripture which PAUL notes that REPENTENCE does not originate FROM the WILL of MAN, rather it is the GOODNESS of GOD which LEADS one to REPENTENCE (Rom 2:4)

The "will of man" cannot and WILL NOT REPENT, without the POWER and GOODNESS of GOD to LEAD him to do so...

The Bible teaches not being conformed to this world but being transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Again bro... the "renewing of your mind" is not done by YOU... it is the POWER of CHRIST which draws you to Himself... and DOES the changing that is necessary IN YOU...

ELECTION is GOD's doing, not Man's via his "choices"...  GOD is working ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL (Eph 1:11)...  Part of HIS WILL is that we are IMMERSED for a "time" in EVIL that we might display by this awful DISOBEDIENT and SELFISH behavior, the GLORY of the GOODNESS and JOY of GOD via OBEDIENCE to Him...

ALL THINGS includes our moments of SELFISH and WILLFUL "choices" which drive us from Him, and into CAPTIVITY (will of man IN BONDAGE to itself)...  ALL THINGS also includes His GRACE which brings us OUT of that CAPTIVITY, into the GLORIOUS LIGHT of HIS WILL... which is BEST for ALL, ...FOREVER!

This requires free will to keep on and on and on with the New Testament because your mind stays as renewed as your hair stays combed.  There's always all kinds of wind and other intrusional things to challenge the level that you've attained to.  Discipleship to Jesus, which is what all of St. John's writings are about, presupposes following Him step by step which requires as much our free choice as it requires His sustaining/carrying Hand at work.

If this is so... then JESUS does not get the "credit" for our following Him... we do!

It also means that we are USURPING glory from Him... which is what was being done by those mentioned in Matt 7:22... they saying:  didnt WE do this and didnt WE do that!

I've said enough...  :msealed:  ...more than I intended...  I meant no offense to you brother, in any of my words... they are how I see it... And you are more than welcome to disagree with any or all that I have said here...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[davidsulem]

Hi WillieH and All,

I shall try to make this post as short as possible and come straight to the heart of this debate.

Firstly, let me be abundantly clear that I absolutely believe in the complete sovereignty of God. Even a sparrow does not fall to the ground apart from the will of God. (Matthew 10:29)

The main difference between your (WillieH's) understanding of Scripture and mine is that you see man's freewill can only work in opposition to God's sovereign will. This is why you strongly argue against man's freewill. You fail to see how man's freewill can work in harmony with God's sovereign will. This is why your reasoning on this subject becomes faulty and unbiblical. For me, the understanding that my freewill and everybody else's freewill works in harmony with God's sovereign will, exalts God's power, His love, and his purpose to the highest level for me and for the whole of mankind. Even the freewill of evil men is within God's will, including the will of the murders of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Let me give you one clear example from the Bible, which you have already referred to:

"Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." (Luke 22:42)

Jesus Christ uttered these words as a Man, from his lowly human perspective and not from his heavenly Godly perspective. He knew what it was to be a man with human feelings and to battle against the pains and temptations of the flesh. 

Did Jesus Christ have a will? YES, of course, the scripture says so.

Did Jesus Christ utter these words, willingly? YES, absolutely.

Did Jesus Christ willingly and freely bring His will in line with the Father's will.  YES, of course He did.

For anyone to suggest that Jesus Christ did not have freewill is false and unbiblical. If Jesus Christ did not have freewill, then he was compelled or programmed to utter these words. This would negate the work of the cross completely. 

Yes, our salvation is 100% the work of God's sovereign will from start to finish, and every aspect of our salvation is a gift from God including repentance, faith and the gift of freewill. Yes, compared to God's will, man's will is very limited, but FREE it is.

Let us be clear that Universalism does not mean forced salvation and God does not force His salvation on anyone. Ultimately, everybody will be saved in this life or the next life in God's time and order. God's Spirit will draw all people from being blind in darkness into having sight in His light, so that they can understand the full work of cross. God draws only a few, His Elect, in this life, but He will draw the rest in the next life. (John 12:32, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23) Ultimately, all people will make the right freewill choice for their salvation when they see to understand the work of the cross in God's light.

God has created us in His own image, and He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, there can be no relationship with God.

[Taffy]

paul

Im not taking away  the choice factor come within lifes circle....we can do what we wish...one  could  get a Gun and Blast anyone if I wanted...Its that I dont choose too, its through life choice and the perimeters which are set we expereince life.. thou through it we  reap what we sow..........but all paths will lead to HIM eventually, or else Not every Knee will BOW.

again everyone paths are different , we dwell in the Darkness UNTIL light IS SHOWN,...we dont turn the LIGHT on ,....He illuminates that darkness .....

Paul was brought to the Place of utter darkness, Literally Blinded till he saw How dark  the life he thought was Light WAS.....DID HE CHOOSE?..look to him for the example.....did he really choose or did he SEE for the FIRST TIME AND REALISE the darkness which went before was FUTILE.....some choice.

[pneuma]

Free will doesn't involve the satisfaction of emotions.  It involves the ability to do the things that God says that we can/should/will do -- no more and no less.

Amen Martin

[WhiteWings]

The main difference between your (WillieH's) understanding of Scripture and mine is that you see man's freewill can only work in opposition to God's sovereign will. This is why you strongly argue against man's freewill. You fail to see how man's freewill can work in harmony with God's sovereign will. This is why your reasoning on this subject becomes faulty and unbiblical. For me, the understanding that my freewill and everybody else's freewill works in harmony with God's sovereign will,

If free will is limited to free will in harmony of Gods will... is that free will?

[willieH]

willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

willieH: Hi brother P... :hithere:

hI wILLIE,   

Maybe a shorter example to narrow the explanations down to help people understand where your coming from.  Excuse the reference to yourself as just an example.


Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

I have the CHOICE to place that icon in greeting... and am only doing so because it was ordained by YHVH (yes even that trivial detail)... before any of you had eyes to see that little eyesore -- eh?  :laughing7:

CHOICE is not FREE WILL...  :dontknow:

Only GOD's WILL shall be done in ETERNITY bro... wherein is man's "FREE WILL" found there & then?

Let me answer my own question... To do the WILL of GOD (not your own) is a WILL found FREE...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

So, just entertaining some thought here.   Lets suppose you must be accountable for posting those eyesores based on it being a sinful act.  :happy3:   If it is ordained by God, what is the manner of your accountability?  

Then it can be said that JESUS died in part for these: :hithere:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

I shall not be PUNISHED for them... only experience the JUST SHAME they are due, because they brought such IMMENSE SORROW to my brothers and sisters, and my Father...  :Whistle:

But you can be GLAD bro... for

JESUS TOOK the "sin" portion of :hithere: away (John 1:29)... so that in ETERNITY, you guys wont be further encumbered by them!  :pointlaugh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

For anyone to suggest that Jesus Christ did not have freewill is false and unbiblical. If Jesus Christ did not have freewill, then he was compelled or programmed to utter these words. This would negate the work of the cross completely. 

What people will not accept is that there is no point of view that can diminish the work of the cross.   The work of your heart in your body is programmed through DNA to beat and perform a function.  It is irrevelent for the sake of why it beats to determine whether your heart is necessary or important.   Free will or no free will, neither perspective removes Jesus purpose.

the gift of freewill.

What verse specifies this gift?   

Let us be clear that Universalism does not mean forced salvation and God does not force His salvation on anyone.

The force of leverage to raise a car off of someones pinned legs is a gift.   God Draws all men unto himself,  if thats not force, what is it?


[/quote]

Ultimately, all people will make the right freewill choice for their salvation when they see to understand the work of the cross in God's light.

What causes that?

[Paul Hazelwood]

willieH: Hey brother P!  :cloud9:

(still "supposing" here) -- If I have not asked "forgiveness" for these "eyesores", then that portion of me shall be exposed in the nakedness of that disobedience...  :dontknow:

So God ordained your disobedience, then subjects you to the shame of something that he caused?

[pneuma]

Free will choice between life and death.

Deuteronomy 30:15-19
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There are three schools of thought concerning the choice given forth in the above scriptures.

1. That there is no choice really given because God is in total control of all choices.

If this be true then God chooses life for some and death for others.  V.15 & V.19

If this is true then God only want some to love the LORD and to walk in His ways and keep His commandments. V.16

If this is true then it is God that turns the heart away which ultimately brings about death. V.17

If this is true then it is Gods will that some perish. V18 and yet we know that it is not Gods will that any should perish. 2Pet.3:9  Herein lies the folly of this belief.

2. That there is a choice but we do not make it but our old nature or God makes it for us.

That simply is NO CHOICE at all for the choice is taken out of OUR hands by our old nature or by God. Which simply means we do not really have a choice at all, which then leads back to the folly of the first line of thought.

If this is true then old nature in us is stronger then God and causes us to turn our hearts away.

3. That man has a free will and that a real choice is given to man, and man makes the choice by his free will.

This is the only school of thought that lines up perfectly with the scriptures above.

We read: I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

God does not set before Himself life and death, and God does not set before our old nature life and death, for the old nature must die.

So who is it that God gives the choice of life and death?

The only answer that does not damage the scripture is US, by our own free will we make the choice of life or death.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Who's heart, who's soul, who's mind, who's strength?

OURS

We read: But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish,

Why does God say ye shall surely perish? When we know that it is not His will that any should perish? 2Pet.3:9

Because in thy heart you have turned away from Him which for this cause He denounces us.

It is not God will that any should perish so why do some perish? Because man has a free will, and by that free will choice he perishes.


Note on perish: This does not mean those who perish cannot be saved all it means is that God places man back under the tutelage of the law which is a ministration of death but also OUR schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

It is not the Fathers will to spank His children but if the child wilfully goes against Him he will correct His children, for if He corrects them not they are bastards and not sons.

Hebrews 12:4-11
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.  11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.  


Joshua 24:15
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.



Does God compel us to serve Him or does He reason together with us?


Isaiah 1:18-20
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


Psalm 32:8-9
8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.  9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

God instructs us and teaches us in the way that we should go by reasoning together with us, not by compulsion, for if one must be compelled to serve God then one is no better then a horse or mule who has no understanding.

Even a babe in Christ is not given a choice of life or death, this choice is only given to one who is mature.

Galatians 4:1-7

Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

A child differeth NOTHING from a servant, a servant does not have a free will but can only do what his master tells him to do. But we are to grow from a child/servant into a full blown son and no longer remain as a servant who has no will of their own.

Jesus said Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Jesus as a full blown son had a free will, He could have called 12 legions of angels and never died on the cross, but He made a choice not my will, but thine be done.

Everything that God gives us must freely be given back to Him, He gave us life and we are to freely give that life back to Him. He set our will free from the slavery of bondage to the old man nature and we are to freely give our will back to Him.

God bless

[pneuma]

Hi pneuma,

It is good to know that we agree on the matter that God has created us with Freewill.

With respect to Genesis 1:26-27, I prefer to take the Bible at its face value. The verses clearly says that God has created us in His own image. Nobody is saying that we are 100% like God. However, we are still made in the image of God as we can have relationship with God and understand the attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.

Yes, of course, we shall bear the image of the heavenly at the resurrection. But this does not take away from the truth of the Bible that we are now the children of God even in our earthly form. ( 1 John 3:2-3)

Hi again David, for your concideration on the image man bares.

1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.

The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.

1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.

Now in conclusion Paul says

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

God bless.

[Taffy]

Hi pneuma,

It is good to know that we agree on the matter that God has created us with Freewill.

With respect to Genesis 1:26-27, I prefer to take the Bible at its face value. The verses clearly says that God has created us in His own image. Nobody is saying that we are 100% like God. However, we are still made in the image of God as we can have relationship with God and understand the attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.

Yes, of course, we shall bear the image of the heavenly at the resurrection. But this does not take away from the truth of the Bible that we are now the children of God even in our earthly form. ( 1 John 3:2-3)

Hi again David, for your concideration on the image man bares.

1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.

The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.

1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.

Now in conclusion Paul says

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

God bless.

Fine Post Scott

[Molly]

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

[Taffy]

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

Molly , for sure, I no need to answer for Scott...

but you might find the answer to be!""""""""""""""""no""""""""""""""""""""""".

The flesh, which is the HEART and Mind , our soul,..DIES,...has Nothing to do with the Mortal BODY...its an error many make...
Alas Many, combine the Flesh to be that of the BODY..tis NOT.

To be Born again, is to first  die to self, MIND \ HEART our soul, so we be renewed with a Right mind, The Mind of Christ and BORN ANEW...


I dont know how many times I state this, I sound like a Broken Record....His Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

therefore we are No longer carnal Minded, which Is death , we are SPIRIT, LIFE born anew In HIM...

gee, sis, poor paul, his head must have hurt Kiddo...
:icon_flower:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi David!  :cloud9:

Hi WillieH and All,

I shall try to make this post as short as possible and come straight to the heart of this debate.

Good luck bro... this thread is probably destined for 15 or 16 pages... back  :blahgreen: ...& forth  :blah: ...& back  :blahgreen: ...& forth  :blah:...  

Firstly, let me be abundantly clear that I absolutely believe in the complete sovereignty of God. Even a sparrow does not fall to the ground apart from the will of God. (Matthew 10:29)

The main difference between your (WillieH's) understanding of Scripture and mine is that you see man's freewill can only work in opposition to God's sovereign will.

First... You present an UNBIBLICAL term, noting man's WILL as FREE...

Second...  This is a contradiction...  If we are doing GOD's "WILL", then we are NOT doing OUR ("free") WILL... :mnah:

Which is WHY JESUS said:  Nevertheless... NOT MY WILL be done, but THINE... for HIS "WILL" was that the CUP PASS... which was IN OPPOSITION to the WILL of GOD, which showed that it DID NOT PASS from Him...

This is why you strongly argue against man's freewill. You fail to see how man's freewill can work in harmony with God's sovereign will.

FAIL?  :laugh:  Please... the same can be said of you bro...  :dontknow:

GOD said to Adam in COMMAND (vs 16)... (Gen 2:17) ...but of the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, thou shalt NOT eat of it, for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.

What did the "will" of Eve then purpose?  Remember, James stated (Jms 1:14) that temptation emerges from within man of his own LUST...

She went to the tree, and LUSTED after it... SAW it was good for FOOD (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eye), ...and then desired (lusted) the knowledge it held, in spite of the command and warning of God, and ATE (pride of life)...

THIS is the WILL of man... in action... For ADAM had been given these same warnings and commands... and also, ATE, regardless...

Even though EVE was in the TEMPTATION and TRANSGRESSION... ADAM's "eating" is what OPENED their eyes to EVIL... For nothing occured when Eve ate... it was not until ADAM exercised HIS ("free") WILL (which overrode the COMMAND of GOD)... that the "fall" occured.

This whole event, which involved ADAM and EVE's use of their supposed "free will"... was NOT in harmony with GOD's command, nor His warning...  Nor has it fallen to ANY MAN differently ever since... for ALL have SINNED (transgressed the command of GOD) and come SHORT of the Glory of GOD... ever since!

This is why your reasoning on this subject becomes faulty and unbiblical. For me, the understanding that my freewill and everybody else's freewill works in harmony with God's sovereign will, exalts God's power, His love, and his purpose to the highest level for me and for the whole of mankind. Even the freewill of evil men is within God's will, including the will of the murders of Jesus Christ on the cross.

The will of man is hardly FREE... it is shown to be within the PRISON or BONDAGE of SIN... you can state it however you shall... but it remains under SIN... and in need of REDEMPTION from it...

GOD's SOVEREIGNTY is COMPLETE... and ALL the events good or evil are ordained to be, or they would not be...

The supposed "FREE WILL" of man, is that which is UNBIBLICAL...  Man has CHOICE, and those CHOICES are manifest, according to the WORD and DECLARATION of GOD... which IS BIBLICAL...

You and I are sinners David... because the WORD says we are... ALL are sinners, even those who are yet to be born... because the WORD says they are...  We ARE what the WORD ...SAYS we ARE...

WE do not dictate to the WORD what we ARE, by making reportable (bad choice) misbehaviors along the course of history... it dictates to US what we ARE... because that HISTORY has already been DECLARED by GOD... And we follow the course of that DECLARATION... believe what you will...

Let me give you one clear example from the Bible, which you have already referred to:

"Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." (Luke 22:42)

Jesus Christ uttered these words as a Man, from his lowly human perspective and not from his heavenly Godly perspective. He knew what it was to be a man with human feelings and to battle against the pains and temptations of the flesh.  

Did Jesus Christ have a will? YES, of course, the scripture says so.

Did Jesus Christ utter these words, willingly? YES, absolutely.

Did Jesus Christ willingly and freely bring His will in line with the Father's will.  YES, of course He did.

I do not argue this... but you must consider David... that JESUS Himself stated that he did NOTHING ...of Himself... rather... what the FATHER said... that DID He DO and SAY...  

What He in fact, DID (remember He DID NOTHING of Himself) ...in submission was DONE by the power of GOD within Him, not the "WILL" of the FLESH (in bondage to itself) which desired to DO, otherwise...

It was the FLESH which objected to the CUP... not the SPIRIT of GOD within Him... and the FLESH is where TEMPTATION emerges (which entailed his desire for the Cup to pass), and if submitted to, brings forth SIN... JESUS did NOT submit to the "WILL" of His flesh...

JESUS' "will of the flesh" was present with Him, for He was TEMPTED in all points as are we (Heb 4:15)... GOD cannot be TEMPTED...  :dontknow:  So the words which proceeded from Him in the garden concerning the cup passing were NOT of GOD, but of His fleshly or manly person...

It is the WILL of GOD which led Him and empowered Him to overcome (as it also does within us), that DENIED the choice of the FLESH to sidestep the coming torment, and CHRIST KILLED His "natural or fleshly WILL" which is in OPPOSITION of the WILL of YHVH... by the WORDS of His own tongue, ...which were EMPOWERED by GOD...

For anyone to suggest that Jesus Christ did not have freewill is false and unbiblical. If Jesus Christ did not have freewill, then he was compelled or programmed to utter these words. This would negate the work of the cross completely.

Says you... falsely, I might add...

Please...  :mshock:  CHRIST came not to do HIS WILL, but the WILL of Him that SENT HIM...

If He was therefore, not doing HIS WILL, then He was following the AGENDA of YHVH...  

If He was following the agenda of YHVH... then His human "will" was NOT being followed...

How do you overcome David?  Is it YOUR WILL which deters SIN in your life?  Or do you draw upon the WILL of GOD to gain this "power"?

And if it takes the "power and will" of GOD to overcome... then what part of "your -- free will" is found engaged?  

It is by submission to the WILL which is FREE (GOD's), and the defeating of your (imprisoned/captive) FLESHLY WILL, that SIN is detered...

Yes, our salvation is 100% the work of God's sovereign will from start to finish, and every aspect of our salvation is a gift from God including repentance, faith and the gift of freewill. Yes, compared to God's will, man's will is very limited, but FREE it is.

I've already noted the contradiction in such a claim that notes LIMITATION and FREEDOM together... LIMITATION is CONFINEMENT... not FREEDOM.

Let us be clear that Universalism does not mean forced salvation and God does not force His salvation on anyone. Ultimately, everybody will be saved in this life or the next life in God's time and order. God's Spirit will draw all people from being blind in darkness into having sight in His light, so that they can understand the full work of cross. God draws only a few, His Elect, in this life, but He will draw the rest in the next life. (John 12:32, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

I agree with most of this portion of your post... with everything but "next life"... but instead of voicing that difference, suffice it to say, I'd rather not deter the subject being discussed... with the entirely different subject that it proposes....

Ultimately, all people will make the right freewill choice for their salvation when they see to understand the work of the cross in God's light.

This is completely UNBIBLICAL... Where does it say in the WORD, that we are SAVED by OUR "FREEWILL CHOICE"?

We do not "choose" to be saved... GOD sent CHRIST to SAVE us... and HE does ALL ASPECTS of that process...

If what you say is so... then it is YOUR "CHOICE" which saved you... not CHRIST... You demote Him to only being the factor that YOU "CHOOSE"...

God has created us in His own image, and He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, there can be no relationship with God.

So say you...  That FREEWILL is not a subject of the Bible, negates its validity as a teaching...

Someone in this thread made an interesting note... Before "robots or machines" were even available as a consideration... what was the useable  alternative?  :laughing7:

GOD has exampled what is going on in HIS BODY in the SPIRIT... by the example He created within our own FLESHLY bodies...

The arms have no "free will"... they DO as the HEAD decides they shall... The legs GO where the HEAD decides they shall... The mouth does NOT decide what it shall eat, or speak, ...the HEAD does, ...and so on!

Which is WHY, in conclusion, ALL parts of the BODY of CHRIST... do as the HEAD decides... which is the WORD and HEART of YHVH GOD...

Might I conclude by saying that I meant no offense to you David in this or any  answer... you are welcome to see these things as you presently do... It is not my desire to change your thinking... only to give those reading our words, a different perspective, ...may GOD use or not use those words, ...as He sees fit...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Taffy]

Good luck bro... this thread is probably destined for 15 or 16 pages... back   ...& forth   ...& back   ...& forth  ... 

only 15 or 16 pgs Bro....wishful thinking  :Sparkletooth:

it must be the fall...

[WhiteWings]

Good luck bro... this thread is probably destined for 15 or 16 pages... back   ...& forth   ...& back   ...& forth  ... 

only 15 or 16 pgs Bro....wishful thinking  :Sparkletooth:

it must be the fall...

The thread about fall angels is locked Taffy  :gangel:

[Taffy]

Good luck bro... this thread is probably destined for 15 or 16 pages... back   ...& forth   ...& back   ...& forth  ... 

only 15 or 16 pgs Bro....wishful thinking  :Sparkletooth:

it must be the fall...

The thread about fall angels is locked Taffy  :gangel:

I thought I re opened it WW :happy3:

Stay around these parts WW and it can get like Ground hog day.....

:icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

Taffy,

Sorta died with no posts in a few days.
Perhaps I should make a post about fallen angels that  always existed with a free will?

Good idea or would you rather have I open another drink. :Party:

[Taffy]

Taffy,

Sorta died with no posts in a few days.
Perhaps I should make a post about fallen angels that  always existed with a free will?

Good idea or would you rather have I open another drink. :Party:

All thread come to a   Temp close matey, until of course they are renewed,,,

but for now

(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/nourriture/boisson/boiss001.gif)

[martincisneros]

As long as nobody crosses the line in saying that anybody's talking trash because they're full of... beep! then I don't care if this thread turns into 750 pages.  It's when somebody gets all heated and needs to go sit on the (http://martincisneros.freeforums.org/files/martincisneros/smilies/toilet.gif) but doesn't and decides to take it out on someone on a thread on these boards that I have a problem with it.  Seems to me that the more free that our will is, then the higher degree of God's Sovereignty is at work to finally reclaim every life.  But if everyone is already on puppet strings, then it's less effort and less wisdom on God's part to finally bring everyone in.  All He'd have to do is yank all of the dog chains and get the dogs into the house on the New Earth or beyond.  To me, the more of a chess game it winds up being between God and the fallen versions of His image, then the greater glory and the greater contentment for Himself and for all when the last rascal has been checkmated.  To me, the more free will that's involved, then the more active God's plan would necessarily have to be -- though I'm not implying that God's reacting since all of the promises, judgments, prizes, and every drop of Blood for the successful transfusion was prepared ages ago.

Has anyone thought that through?  That the less free will, which would mean the less conscious that each of us were, then God's plan would seem to involve less than Him simply arranging the bodies and talking heads as He wishes.  The portraits of Him in Scripture as a warrior seem less dynamic and less meaningful and the wisdom He'd have to share out of all of this would seem less meaningful.  After all, how much suffering is there if free will is virtually nonexistent?  Did God personally dress any of you in physical clothing this morning?  Animals seem to have free will.  Walk out into a field and slap a bull with everything you've got and when he comes after you it's not going to be a matter of instinct alone.  It'll be because you really angered him and he's made up his mind and decided with his own free will that you're going to be mashed, stomped, kicked, and hit until you're nothing more than grease and minced meat!  Which brings me to another question or two:

Is all of the violence in the world being orchestrated by God?  What about the shootings, the thefts, the sexual deviancy, the false religions, the false politicians, the mental and bodily torture, the trafficing in millions of human slaves, the blasphemies, the scalding and slowly dismembering abortions, the twisting of God's Words, etc.??

God neither orchestrates it, nor uses it.  He uses His Word, His Faith, His Blood, and His Anointing to get everything done.  And in saying this, I'm not negating the evil spoken of in Isaiah that God created in judging Israel with the events leading up to the babylonian captivity, and neither am I attempting to take away from the Scriptures that talk about the redemptive events of Jesus' life, glorification, sufferings, and resurrection as having been 100% orchestrated by God.  But to me, it doesn't follow from that that all of the evils in the world are being orchestrated by God.  Since Jesus is the Saviour, it would just follow that the events that are ongoing in Jesus' life are continually being orchestrated by God in order to restore the whole Creation to Himself.  James chapter 1 says not to say that God tempts any man with temptations, testings, and trials, but each one that's lead astray and away are being messed with by their own unruly desires; undisciplined mind, emotions, and mouth; and by one's own pride which God resists but gives grace to the humble. 

St. Paul said that God absolutely always provides the way of escape in a way that you may be able to bare it and get away from what's about to tempt you out of your mind.  If the way of escape is always orchestrated by God, yet the way is not always taken by man, then how could there not be free will?  The Bible says that God provides the way of escape, and St. Paul's strong language would imply that it's always there and that there's no excuse for not taking it, yet people all of the time don't rightly discern the Bread and the Cup and by failing to judge themselves by rightly discerning His sufferings in their behalf, then they're not chastened by the Lord in those situations and wind up being judged with the world.

[Molly]

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Are you literally saying that we have to physically die before we can inherit the kingdom?

Molly , for sure, I no need to answer for Scott...

but you might find the answer to be!""""""""""""""""no""""""""""""""""""""""".

The flesh, which is the HEART and Mind , our soul,..DIES,...has Nothing to do with the Mortal BODY...its an error many make...
Alas Many, combine the Flesh to be that of the BODY..tis NOT.

To be Born again, is to first  die to self, MIND \ HEART our soul, so we be renewed with a Right mind, The Mind of Christ and BORN ANEW...


I dont know how many times I state this, I sound like a Broken Record....His Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

therefore we are No longer carnal Minded, which Is death , we are SPIRIT, LIFE born anew In HIM...

gee, sis, poor paul, his head must have hurt Kiddo...
:icon_flower:

His Flesh, that is His Mind\ Heart never saw corruption, tis because of this, and the shedding of HIS blood ,the Enmity has been abolished...

That's a beautiful way to put it, his flesh never saw corruption--that was his own.  So it's a pure place to live in this world.

The seed which is sown in corruption is Christ.

The seed has to die--and we die with it--



Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.


1 Cor 15
A seed must die before it can sprout from the ground.


It is sown in the corruption [of our ground] and raised in the incorruption of his flesh.


1 Cor 15
37Wheat seeds and all other seeds look different from the sprouts that come up. 38This is because God gives everything the kind of body he wants it to have.


Like you said, He did not allow his holy one to see corruption.

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


His uncorrupted, incorruptible flesh becomes our body--

raised in honor, raised in glory--before the throne of God.


19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

--Hebrews 10

[CHB]

(Isaiah 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.

In order for man to have free will he would have to know the future. We can not know what the next second will bring, so how can we determine anything?

We forget what we are sometimes folks. We are dirt, which God took and put a brain and all of our components into. We had nothing to do with acquirng or maintaining any part of our bodies. We can try as hard as we can to keep our bodies working but eventually our bodies will shut down. God gave us a mouth to speak, ears to hear, eyes to see, but he can close any one of them at any time and there is not a thing our will can do to stop it. Where did the first word originate from? Why do we hear, see, feel, think? Can you say one of these is done by our free will? If you can, then we certainly do have free will, if not, folks, it is out the window.  

We claim to be able to choose this or that but where did you get the ability to choose anything and why? I had a man say to me one time that God didn't care if he chose to paint his house red. I ask him why he liked red. He didn't know. You see, with all things, it always has to go straight back to the original beginning, which is God.  

Willie, just wanted to say, I really enjoy your posts about "free will". They remind me that God is the potter and I am the clay.

CHB