Free will and eternal hell

[pauljasonh]

Let me first say I don't believe in either. That said, I'm now searching for a church where I am not constantly hearing about either. Is there a church or denomination that generally speaking believes in God's control and reformative judgement of man?

I believe God causes everything in this world to happen, and He has given me great peace in this world through that faith. I also believe He is working all things for His plan, even the wicked. So I am trying to find a place that I can worship with my kids and wife without being sucked into a cult. Is there a mainstream denomination that I could attend and share my beliefs with?

[firstborn888]

That's kind of a tall order because those doctrines automatically exclude you from the mainstream.

I know that in the united methodist church the pastors are given a lot of lee-way for their interpretations. Find the right pastor and you've found the right church.

[Craig]

Hello Paul,

Welcome to Tentmaker.

When you say you don't believe in free-will are you saying, are you talking about self-determination concerning the end? Then I agree, there is no such thing as self-determination, God has pre-destined all men to Himself, and those who sinned against them shall be ashamed but reconciled.

Take this to heart and consider it... If that is not what you were saying and you don't believe in free-will, then who cares what you think, we have no choice in the matter anyways, who cares what you believe there is no surety of it's truth if that is how you were designed to believe it. Why are you even here? Did you choose to be here? How does being scripted to be here have any relevance to why you should be here, it matters not since you believe what ever you were scripted, do whatever you were scripted because you had no freedom of will to even choose to be here in the first place, let alone choose what you want to believe. You won't find much sympathy from myself if you think you were scripted in some cosmic play to do what you did, and so had no choice in the matter. That is selfishness, and denial; the need to avoid such feeling of responsibility and accountability that sometimes involve regret and guilt of wrong decisions. There is something that we can do concerning those feelings, and that is repentance and forgiveness even of our dumb wrong decisions. Free-will is a reality, self-determination is a fantasy.

Free-will and self-determination may seem synchronistic but they are completely two different things. Semantically, when it comes to the things outside our control, we have no free-will. However, with the things present in our life, the reason you are alive, is to make choices and decisions. We still reap what we sow, but there is no such thing as a perpetual hell which we must endure if we choose to pursue corruption.

If the latter is what you meant, there are a few churches who believe it. But they are sparce and you need to move to that city to attend their services.

If you took offense to my ramblings about free-will, get over it, especially if you don't believe in we have it since God scripted me to say it to you anyways. *wink*

[davidsulem]

God's Sovereign Will versus man's Freewill

There is a lot of confusion in universalist circles about whether or not man is created with freewill. Some Universalists strongly argue that men and angels are not created with freewill.

This problem is easily resolved once we accept the truth of the Bible that God created man in His own image, according to His likeness. (Genesis 1:26) We all know that God has a will, and since God created man in His own image, God created man with a will. A will by definition is free. It is a contradiction in terms to say that man has a will and at the same time deny that it is free.

The problem comes when some people think that in order for man's will to be truly free, it must have the same unlimited freedom as God's will. This is ridiculous and nonsensical. God's will is sovereign, and though our will is very limited compared to God's will, man's will is nonetheless free. A limited freedom is still freedom. The truth that God is all-knowing and that He knows in advance what choices we make, does not take away from the freedom of our will to make choices. Simply because a father knows in advance that his child will choose chocolate instead of fruit, does not take away from the child's freedom to choose chocolate, whether the father grants the child's wish to have chocolate or not. The understanding of how man's freewill operates under God's sovereign will is often a hard concept for people to grasp.

Let us re-emphasise that God has created us in His own image, and that He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot can be programmed to make choices, but it does not have a will and it cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, God cannot hold men accountable for their sins, and God's judgements would not have any meaning. Without freewill, repentance does not make sense, and salvation loses its meaning. All of the attributes that God wants us to have like love, forgiveness and mercy become meaningless, without freewill. The Bible says that we shall be partakers of the divine nature and that we shall become children of God in His likeness. This would be impossible if God had not created us with freewill.

Arminianism is wrong not because it believes in man's freewill, but because it exalts and empowers man's limited fallen freewill above God's sovereign will in salvation. You may wish to see Chapter 18 of our free online book, www.GodsPlanForAll.com for further information on Arminianism, Calvinism and Universalism.

[pneuma]

God's Sovereign Will versus man's Freewill

There is a lot of confusion in universalist circles about whether or not man is created with freewill. Some Universalists strongly argue that men and angels are not created with freewill.

This problem is easily resolved once we accept the truth of the Bible that God created man in His own image, according to His likeness. (Genesis 1:26) We all know that God has a will, and since God created man in His own image, God created man with a will. A will by definition is free. It is a contradiction in terms to say that man has a will and at the same time deny that it is free.

The problem comes when some people think that in order for man's will to be truly free, it must have the same unlimited freedom as God's will. This is ridiculous and nonsensical. God's will is sovereign, and though our will is very limited compared to God's will, man's will is nonetheless free. A limited freedom is still freedom. The truth that God is all-knowing and that He knows in advance what choices we make, does not take away from the freedom of our will to make choices. Simply because a father knows in advance that his child will choose chocolate instead of fruit, does not take away from the child's freedom to choose chocolate, whether the father grants the child's wish to have chocolate or not. The understanding of how man's freewill operates under God's sovereign will is often a hard concept for people to grasp.

Let us re-emphasise that God has created us in His own image, and that He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot can be programmed to make choices, but it does not have a will and it cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, God cannot hold men accountable for their sins, and God's judgements would not have any meaning. Without freewill, repentance does not make sense, and salvation loses its meaning. All of the attributes that God wants us to have like love, forgiveness and mercy become meaningless, without freewill. The Bible says that we shall be partakers of the divine nature and that we shall become children of God in His likeness. This would be impossible if God had not created us with freewill.

Arminianism is wrong not because it believes in man's freewill, but because it exalts and empowers man's limited fallen freewill above God's sovereign will in salvation. You may wish to see Chapter 18 of our free online book, www.GodsPlanForAll.com for further information on Arminianism, Calvinism and Universalism.

Hi David I agree on most of your post, except were you say we are made in the image of God.
The only man who was ever in the image of God was Jesus Christ and Paul in 1Co.15 makes a big distinction between the first man Adam and Jesus Christ, stating that we as of right now bare the image of the earth earthy, but that we SHALL bare the image of the heavenly.

Is it not obvious then that it is the image of the heavenly that is the image of god? And that man does not yet bare this image.

We are to be changed brother and if we right now bare the image of God what image are we then to bare?

Gen.1:26-27 is a prophesy of Christ and us in Christ and only deals with Adam as he is found in Christ.

God bless

[davidsulem]

Hi pneuma,

It is good to know that we agree on the matter that God has created us with Freewill.

With respect to Genesis 1:26-27, I prefer to take the Bible at its face value. The verses clearly says that God has created us in His own image. Nobody is saying that we are 100% like God. However, we are still made in the image of God as we can have relationship with God and understand the attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.

Yes, of course, we shall bear the image of the heavenly at the resurrection. But this does not take away from the truth of the Bible that we are now the children of God even in our earthly form. ( 1 John 3:2-3)

[Taffy]

oh Dear, the free will thread comes around once more....

David,..anything which IS limited is NOT FREE, tis an oxymoron brother, not that I care, but for sure some smart a--e is going to pick ya Up on it...

saying that..nothing more to say on the subject. :icon_flower:

welcome to Tent :icon_flower:

[davidsulem]

Hi Taffy,

Thank you for your welcome.

A will by definition is free even if it is limited.  It is an oxymoron to say that man has a will and at the same time deny its freedom.  Limited freedom is still freedom but within boundaries. The fact that I am limited and cannot fly freely like a bird does not take away form my God given freedom to walk, run and choose to do many other things within my capabilities.

:bigGrin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi David... :hithere:  and WELCOME!   :welcome:

Many others here will disagree (and have already done so) with what I am about to say (to include yourself)... but say it I will, regardless!  :dontknow:

And please... this answer is not an attempt to change your mind... I am simply giving you a different perspective than the one you presently have...

You are more than welcome to disagree with this answer... No prob!  :cloud9:

God's Sovereign Will versus man's Freewill

"Man's FREE WILL" is NOT named or discussed in the Bible David... this idea is the creation of MAN.  If man's "will" were free, why is it not SPECIFICALLY named so in the WORD?

The 1st red flag of false doctrine (as I see it), is its lack of presence as a teaching in the WORD of YHVH...

There is a lot of confusion in universalist circles about whether or not man is created with freewill. Some Universalists strongly argue that men and angels are not created with freewill.

This problem is easily resolved once we accept the truth of the Bible that God created man in His own image, according to His likeness. (Genesis 1:26) We all know that God has a will, and since God created man in His own image, God created man with a will. A will by definition is free. It is a contradiction in terms to say that man has a will and at the same time deny that it is free.

This is a topic which has been beaten to death here at TM bro... but to say that the WILL of man is FREE [IMO] is to disassociate yourself from the picture presented in the WORD and mission of CHRIST...

To say that GOD is SOVEREIGN (in COMPLETE control of all things), and then say MAN is acting a "WILL" which is OUTSIDE that SOVEREIGNTY, is to me the "CONTRADICTION in terms"...  :dontknow:

To address your words above:  "a will by definition is free"... to me is completely off-base...

If this were so, ...it would mean that the acts of a PSOCIOPATH are done by a WILL which is FREE...  I hardly see that to be a definition of FREEDOM...

On the contrary, the PSOCIOPATH is COMPLETELY IN BONDAGE to his need to KILL... Though he "FREELY" engages that MISBEHAVIORAL need... does not mean that HIS "WILL" is FREE... His actions are OUT of BEHAVIORAL control... and are found to be under the BONDAGE of His Mentally deranged, OBSESSION...

A DRUNK is not acting with a WILL which is FREE... he is acting upon the BONDAGE in which he is IMMERSED...

CHRIST taught (as did His Disciples) that we must DISASSOCIATE ourselves from our "will"... by His example He noted:  "nevertheless NOT "My WILL" but THINE be done... If the will of ANY MAN to include CHRIST is exercised, then the WILL of GOD is NOT... which is WHY CHRIST spoke as He did...

Even concerning the "manner of prayer" He included:  "Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name, ...THY WILL BE DONE... IN EARTH as it IS in Heaven"...

He was teaching that we are to ABANDON our WILL which actually is IN BONDAGE, giving way to the WILL of GOD which CREATES FREEDOM... (John 8:32)

The WILL of GOD is found within HIS WORD... and it is HIS WORD which transforms the hearer, from the BONDAGE of his will which gravitates NATURALLY to SIN, and FREE'S it from that natural state, by submitting and putting to DEATH ones own "WILL", and thereby submit by making place for the SPIRIT of GOD and His Direction, as the active WILL in your life and actions, which becomes by that submission... "your" WILL...

The BEGINNING of freedom is found in submitting what you percieve to be your "free will"... to the WILL of GOD in all areas of who and what you are... When this is done, FREEDOM is thereby incorporated...

This is not a "Once in a lifetime" enaction... it is something which, for Sinners... takes a LIFETIME... the POTTER is about "molding the clay" all LIFE LONG...

The problem comes when some people think that in order for man's will to be truly free, it must have the same unlimited freedom as God's will. This is ridiculous and nonsensical. God's will is sovereign, and though our will is very limited compared to God's will, man's will is nonetheless free. A limited freedom is still freedom.

This is to note those in a PRISON as actually, "FREE"...  :omg: 

That they have PHYSICAL freedom limited to the 4 walls of the prison, does not equate to them being FREE... GOD in His WORD equates us to be IN PRISON...  If we are IN PRISON... how can we name ourselves FREE?  I believe it is NONSENSICAL to name "limited [confined] freedom", as FREEDOM...

Thou shalt NOT KILL... where is FREEDOM here David?  Are you FREE to KILL?   Well, if you consider FREEDOM to disobey this command as FREEDOM... then yes you are FREE to KILL... But is it truly FREEDOM?  Of course it is NOT! 

The act of KILLING is hardly an act of a will which is "FREE", ...it is an act which is IN BONDAGE to SELFISH DISOBEDIENCE of the COMMAND that GOD gave TO NOT do so...  :nod:

The truth that God is all-knowing and that He knows in advance what choices we make, does not take away from the freedom of our will to make choices.

Again... I disagree... GOD cannot be IN CONTROL/SOVEREIGN over all things, and yet not be...  He DECLARED the END from the BEGINNING... we are following the DECLARATION of what HE said we would do...

What am I saying?  It SAYS in the WORD of GOD that CAIN slew ABEL...

The WORD of GOD is NOT finite... nor is it presented in the works of MEN...  MEN do according to the ETERNAL WORD of GOD which cannot EVER be CHANGED... 

That the WORD of God has been noted within the course of the HISTORY of man, does not CONFINE it to TIME nor MAN's experience... On the contrary... what IT SAYS... WILL HAPPEN... or DID HAPPEN...

The ENTIRE history of man was DECLARED by GOD before its BEGINNING... calling those things (the history of man in TIME), that were NOT, as if they WERE (Rom 4:17 / Is 46:10-11)

What most do not see, the BEGINNING and the END are WITHIN the same BEING (CHRIST - IS [not will be or was] the ALPHA and OMEGA, the BEGINNING, and the END - Rev 1:8)

Before CAIN and ABEL were even born, the ETERNAL WORD (yet to be noted in mans experience) stated that CAIN "slew" ABEL... and so, in the course of the (early) HISTORY of MAN, it occured...  Just AS IS STATED in the ETERNAL WORD of GOD...

If you cannot see this, you cannot...  But men do as GOD's WORD says they WILL... NOT as men's "WILL" (and actions) eventually via the History of MEN, ...dictate to the WORD of God... And subsequently GOD's WORD later reports these doings... Please!

Simply because a father knows in advance that his child will choose chocolate instead of fruit, does not take away from the child's freedom to choose chocolate, whether the father grants the child's wish to have chocolate or not. The understanding of how man's freewill operates under God's sovereign will is often a hard concept for people to grasp.

Sorry brother, I see these nice examples as finite observances being compared to the ETERNAL...  The reason it is "hard to grasp", is that it (mans "free will") simply does not exist... :mnah:

Let us re-emphasise that God has created us in His own image, and that He did not create us in the image of a robot or a machine. A robot can be programmed to make choices, but it does not have a will and it cannot have a relationship with God. We are created to have relationship with God. Without freewill, God cannot hold men accountable for their sins, and God's judgements would not have any meaning[/b].

Alas... The old "robot" arguement - eh?  :laughing7: 

God did not "create" men in His own image, He is ACTIVELY CREATING THEM in His own image... Until the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST in His FULLNESS is found in each, then NO MAN is found MADE (past tense) in His IMAGE... (Jer 10:23 / Jer 18:4)

It is a PROCESS David... Because you are a MAN does not mean the process is complete...  The process includes the JUDGMENT (Is 26:9)... for IN JUDGMENT, do men LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS...

GOD is not "holding men accountable for their sins" bro... (John 1:29 / 2 Cor 5:18-19)

MEN give account in the EXPOSURE of their lifetimes... but JUDGMENT relieves them of that EXPOSURE... 

CHRIST noted that He is the "clothing" which keeps men from that "exposure"... but in the end, those which must be exposed in JUDGMENT, only drives them to Him... which is WHY every knee shall bow and tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is Lord... (Phil 2:10-11)

Without freewill, repentance does not make sense, and salvation loses its meaning. All of the attributes that God wants us to have like love, forgiveness and mercy become meaningless, without freewill. The Bible says that we shall be partakers of the divine nature and that we shall become children of God in His likeness. This would be impossible if God had not created us with freewill.

Sorry brother David, but NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD... NOTHING!  Not even that which YOU PROPOSE and deduce, ...with this arguement... (Matt 19:26 / Mark 10:27 / Luke 1:37)

This is obviously your perspective David... Mine is that without GOD's COMPLETE SOVEREIGNTY, salvation loses all its meaning... For it attempts to put that Salvation in our hands to decide... It also attempts to USURP from HIM, a portion of HIS POWER (by the "power" of the supposed "free will"), which is noted as TOTALLY and EXCLUSIVELY HIS:  (Rom 13:1)... and all THAT proceeds from the enactions of HIS POWER is ORDAINED of HIM...

WE are on HIS (will) PROGRAM David...  HE is NOT on ours (will)...  He is orchestrating this whole thing, which is why ALL THINGS that occur in His Creation are ORDAINED, and are intended TO,  and WILL... Glorify Him FOREVER!

REPENTENCE did NOT come from within you David...  The WORD states that the GOODNESS OF GOD, leadeth THEE to REPENTENCE -- you do not do it of yourself. (Rom 2:4)  --- where's the "free will"?

Your FAITH is also not a product of yours... for CHRIST is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our FAITH... (Heb 12:2)  HE originates the FAITH which CAUSES you to BELIEVE! --- where's the "free will"?

The WORD also says that MAN ...CANNOT... come to CHRIST except YHVH ...DRAW him... (John 6:44 & 65) --- where's the "free will"?

Arminianism is wrong not because it believes in man's freewill, but because it exalts and empowers man's limited fallen freewill above God's sovereign will in salvation. You may wish to see Chapter 18 of our free online book, www.GodsPlanForAll.com for further information on Arminianism, Calvinism and Universalism.

Hmmm... limited FALLEN, ...free will?  :mshock:  Come on bro... thats like saying -- disgustingly awful - deliciously sweet candy...   How can something CONFINED be FREE?  How can something FALLEN (from OBEDIENCE to the Creator of FREEDOM), be FREE?  As I see it, these are contradictory terms put together to establish something (free will) that is not there...

About your book, ...thanks, but no thanks... (no offense)... There are many writings by men out there which claim truth... but the only book I need to find it, is the WORD of God... I'm sure you'll understand!   :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Howdee Taffster!  :cloud9:

oh Dear, the free will thread comes around once more....

David,..anything which IS limited is NOT FREE, tis an oxymoron brother, not that I care, but for sure some smart a--e is going to pick ya Up on it...

saying that..nothing more to say on the subject. :icon_flower:

welcome to Tent :icon_flower:

Hey Graham... David and his wife are "brits"! 

Maybe you guys are within contact distance!  Just thought I'd add that in...

Hope you are feelin better bratha!  :afFro:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Craig]

Hi Taffy,

Thank you for your welcome.

A will by definition is free even if it is limited.  It is an oxymoron to say that man has a will and at the same time deny its freedom.  Limited freedom is still freedom but within boundaries. The fact that I am limited and cannot fly freely like a bird does not take away form my God given freedom to walk, run and choose to do many other things within my capabilities.

:bigGrin:

Though we disagree on fallen angels, we agree on what free-will is. It is amazing how people cannot understand limited freedom, is still freedom only limited.

[Craig]

Once again the anti-free-will people demonstrate a lack of understanding and ineptitude to knowledge concerning what freedom is, and the fact that the will had freedom, even if that freedom is within limites. Even God's will is not free to sin, therefore God's does not sin. Now if God is free to sin, that mean He will sin. If God sins, then there is no hope in such God and our life, physical and spiritual is vanity of an arrogant selfish God.

If someone has no understanding the ontological nature of 'freedom', it becomes very obvious in their replies. I wish they just see the bigger picture instead of stick to their narrow and limited perception of what freedom is, and what the will is.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi David!   :cloud9:

With respect to Genesis 1:26-27, I prefer to take the Bible at its face value. The verses clearly says that God has created us in His own image. Nobody is saying that we are 100% like God. However, we are still made in the image of God as we can have relationship with God and understand the attributes of love, mercy, forgiveness etc.

ALL that GOD does is on an "IS" basis bro... the word "created" is a TIME confined, and defined, term...

GOD is not confined by TIME, He established it [time] as an entity which parades in its FULLNESS before GOD...

ALL TIME is present before GOD at "ALL TIMES"... so the word CREATED is something which may be applied to US, but NOT to Him... nor His doings...

HE is CREATING man, for CREATING is an "IS" thing... CREATED is a "WAS" thing... which is not applicable to HIM...

He is (during the course of time) IN PROCESS of molding the clay bro... part of which includes the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST in each one...

Scott is correct (Pneuma) in stating that only CHRIST is MAN in the COMPLETE image of GOD... for CHRIST is the WORD of YHVH, and the WORD is an ETERNAL entity and appears COMPLETE, which is apart from TIME (the state of INCOMPLETENESS)...

This is WHY and HOW CHRIST was slain from the foundation of the world... it was a done deal from the BEGINNING, because He is the BEGINNING and the END... SIMULTANEOUSLY...

That the event of His death was witnessed and manifest IN TIME, does not in any way, confine it to have been a TIME defined event... it was an ETERNAL defined event...

GOD's WORD ...ALWAYS IS... and changes not... (Heb 13:8) 

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH:  :laughing7:

And once again the "Limited Free will people" write words which are contrary to themselves...

LIMITED means confined... FREE means UNCONFINED...

That the WILL of man is UNCONFINED by OBEDIENCE within its DISOBEDIENCE... only verifies its confinement to that DISOBEDIENCE... which is NOT FREEDOM.

FREEDOM, ...is to be loosed from the bondage of DISOBEDIENT CONFINEMENT... (caused by man exercising HIS will, over and instead of GOD's)

FREEDOM,  ...is what the WORD of GOD actually manifests!

When His WORD is applied to the experience of those CONFINED by their DISOBEDIENCE... (heard) they are, MADE FREE... (John 8:32)

And thereby IN that FREEDOM become OBEDIENT... which is FREE indeed!

FREE of what?  FREE of DISOBEDIENCE, the NATURAL state of MAN...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[bobf]

If that is not what you were saying and you don't believe in free-will, then who cares what you think, we have no choice in the matter anyways...

Sorry Craig, gotta bring this up once again.

Free Will (two definitions from online dictionary)
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

My comments
1. equates free will with ability to choose.
2. equates free will with ability to choose in a certain way -- unconstrained by circumstances or God.

Some synonyms for "constrain"
verb 1. restrict, confine, curb, restrain, rein, constrict, hem in, straiten, check, chain
verb 2. force, pressure, urge, bind, compel, oblige, necessitate, coerce, impel, pressurize, drive

No one can discuss free will with someone without knowing which of the above two defintions (or other) are being employed.  Can we debate whether X exists while using different defintions for X?  No.

You assumed that Paul either meant
1. no free will = no self determination
2. no free will = no choice

You left out a third possibility that Paul might believe (what I believe)

3. no free will = no uncontrained choice, but still choice

I believe we choose (select from two or more altiernatives) using out mind, reason, thoughts, wills applied to some situation.  God can and does constrain (urge, pressurize, see above list) us to choose what He intends.  Yet we still choose using our wills.

Example: Jonah was contrained to choose to testify to Nineveh.
Typical Rebuttal: but Jonah could have still refused
My Rebuttal: yeah, he could have refused, if he weren't Jonah

Under defintion #1 I believe in free will
Under defintion #2 I do not believe in free will

[davidsulem]

Hi WiilieH, Thank you for your welcome.

I completely disagree with you. Your reasonings are unsound and unbiblical. I shall reply in detail in my next post.

[davidsulem]

Hi SOtW,

I am pleased we agree.

It is amazing how people cannot understand limited freedom, is still freedom only limited.

The Bible speaks about limited freedom from Genesis to Revelation. The idea that we have no freewill is totally an unbiblical concept.

[WhiteWings]

I think free will just can't be proved.
Simple example to get my point across. Use your free will to take it out of context....  :pointlaugh:
God created different kinds of fruit. We can eat what we find tastes best. We define that as free will.
In heaven there are for example 100 types of fruit that taste a 100 times better than what we have on earth.
If we had access to that fruit we would pick the heavenly fruit above the earthly fruit.
But God choose not to give access to that fruit.
So basically we have a free will to chose between the choices presented to us by God.
And perhaps we are even under mind-control when making that choice....

[Paul Hazelwood]

hI wILLIE,   

Maybe a shorter example to narrow the explanations down to help people understand where your coming from.  Excuse the reference to yourself as just an example.


Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

[WhiteWings]

Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

Not.

Otherwise Willie would use all smilies availble on Internet  :laughing7: :icon_king: :icon_joker: :bgdance: :dsunny: :laugh: :laugh2: :rolllol: :pointlaugh: :this: :LH: :laughhand: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance:

Sorry I forgot to add you fav icon Mr. WillieH
:hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere:

[bobf]

If we had access to that fruit we would pick the heavenly fruit above the earthly fruit. But God choose not to give access to that fruit. So basically we have a free will to chose between the choices presented to us by God.
And perhaps we are even under mind-control when making that choice....

Even among the options we do have access to, we can not really choose by force-of-will which option we will prefer.  Can you choose to prefer earthly fruit over heavenly fruit?  Or to take the extreme can you choose to prefer eating a rotten apple full of worms over eating a ripe juicy apple?  Our choices are contrained and under pressure.

[WhiteWings]

If we had access to that fruit we would pick the heavenly fruit above the earthly fruit. But God choose not to give access to that fruit. So basically we have a free will to chose between the choices presented to us by God.
And perhaps we are even under mind-control when making that choice....

Even among the options we do have access to, we can not really choose by force-of-will which option we will prefer.  Can you choose to prefer earthly fruit over heavenly fruit?  Or to take the extreme can you choose to prefer eating a rotten apple full of worms over eating a ripe juicy apple?  Our choices are contrained and under pressure.

Bob,
I agree with what you wrote.
But it can be argued that you choose the ripe apple by free will simply because you freely decided it tastes better.
But why do you think it tastes better? Perhaps that choice is steered by your brain telling you that you get sick of such food. Same goes for rotten meat. It will do you more bad than good. Even if you are starving. But a raven eats both fleshly killed and rotten meat. The body design of the raven has widened its free will of chosing food.
So the choices you have are restricted evn more by limitation of your body.
You may like to gamble but that's no choice for you because you have to feed your family.
So factors that limit the free will are everywhere. So when you make choice in such a situation is it really a choice?
Think not.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If we had access to that fruit we would pick the heavenly fruit above the earthly fruit. But God choose not to give access to that fruit. So basically we have a free will to chose between the choices presented to us by God.
And perhaps we are even under mind-control when making that choice....

Even among the options we do have access to, we can not really choose by force-of-will which option we will prefer.  Can you choose to prefer earthly fruit over heavenly fruit?  Or to take the extreme can you choose to prefer eating a rotten apple full of worms over eating a ripe juicy apple?  Our choices are contrained and under pressure.

Bob,
I agree with what you wrote.
But it can be argued that you choose the ripe apple by free will simply because you freely decided it tastes better.
But why do you think it tastes better? Perhaps that choice is steered by your brain telling you that you get sick of such food. Same goes for rotten meat. It will do you more bad than good. Even if you are starving. But a raven eats both fleshly killed and rotten meat. The body design of the raven has widened its free will of chosing food.
So the choices you have are restricted evn more by limitation of your body.
You may like to gamble but that's no choice for you because you have to feed your family.
So factors that limit the free will are everywhere. So when you make choice in such a situation is it really a choice?
Think not.

Given your example,  what about the ones that will gamble with a family to feed?

[Craig]

2. no free will = no choice

There is no choice without freedom of will. If you say we have choice, we have freedom. I use the PRIMARY definition of free-will and not the second definition. Free will is the ability for the will to make a choice.

[WhiteWings]

Given your example,  what about the ones that will gamble with a family to feed?

Hard to answer that Paul.
I think there are several gradations of free will.
Some choices are no longer choices because they are impossible. I want to fly like an hawk and run fast an cheeta and be stong as a elephant.
I want to fruit in heaven but I can't reach it. Even worse I don't know it exists because its hidden from me.
Then to your question....
Indeed there is some choice involved for the gambler. Assume both gamblers are equally poor/rich etc.
Both have the same love for their family.
There is a struggle in their head. A conflict of free will. The free will to gamble and the free way to support your family the best you can. That inner struggle often is largely controlled by social behavior.
So Paul, basicly the answer to your question is that it's a grey area.

Broken down in groups (of course there are many more)

a]
The heavenly fruit.
My free will is limted to the choices given/shown to me.
=> free will to choice from preselected things.

b]
Eating rotten meat. Flying. Speed. Strength
The way my body is designed greatly controls that choice.
=> free will limited by design limitations

c]
Eating worms.
Worms often are very nutricious. Many who live in rainforrests eat them.
Most westerners won't because of learned behavior.
=> free will is limited by culture

d]
Gambling example.
=> Free will is limited by inner struggle

e]
Simple choices. Willies smilie example.
Willie won't get into any trouble if he used the red cap smiley instead of the black hat smiley.
So trival things like using smilies are almost free will.
Yep I wrote almost.
For example I doubt Martin would allow swastika or satanic smilies.
In this case that is no limitation because I'm pretty sure Willie doesn't even want to use such smilies. That's why he's called WILLie  :laughing7:
My fruit bowl is generously filled with several types of fruit. I can afford it so that's no issue.
There is enough for all so I can pick whatever I want. So free will here
=> If free will exists it exists for trival choices.