The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Molly]

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Those gods were either a) Figments of man's imagination or b) men who assumed the place of power (as most ancient religions did).

We can choose to follow spirits (the thoughts, strongholds, imaginations, empty arguments, etc.) the things that are Death or follow the Spirit (Truth, Knowledge, Wisdom, Love) the Thing that is Life.

See, that's where we disagree (which is ok, just want to be clear about it).  When Moses has his 'shooting match' with the prophets of Baal, those prophets are performing miracles, etc.  Moses wins because they decide that his God is bigger than their god.

To me, these other gods that men serve (Satan and his demons) are real. There is a power which is not of God. Sorcery, witchcraft, etc taps into a real power that is of the unholy one.  I have seen it.  That is why God forbids these practices.  Certainly the men they kill on the alter of their gods are real.  Their death is real.  And, those that serve death will die.


Numbers 25:5
So Moses ordered Israel's judges, "Each of you must put to death the men under your authority who have joined in worshiping Baal of Peor."

[pneuma]

Quote from: pneuma
Craig you know very well you are taking that out of context, low blow bro.

No pneuma it isn't a low blow, those are you own words. You don't care what people say about it, zip, zero. Can't low blow something you admit freely to everyone in this forum.
As well as your continual attribution of your thoughts of what others think as what they think, also show me that you are not listening to what is being presented. You will think what you want to think, you don't much take into consideration other people's positions and only take up those positions when arguing against them rather than taking time to understand them....

Craig you and I and everyone who read where I said that know perfectly well it was in context of you trying to shove those with so called higher learning down my throat, and I said I don't care what they think, I won't be led about by the nose just because someone else says this is the only way one can understand the bible.

So yes bro you took me out of contexts.

Example of your errors...

Craig if spirits are man made or to use your words created by a part of man, and God is a spirit you are saying God is a creation of man.

That is simple logic bro, and for someone who I know is very logical not to see this logic is illogical.

No, that is a fallacy called error in composition. There is no logic to what you are saying since it is a fallacy. There is God, and then there are gods. We are not God, we are gods. There is Spirit, and then there is spirit. Spirit which is Life and then there is spirit which is life. If you cannot distinguish between Spirit and spirit, then you have a long way to go in your walk.

Nice try Craig but that does not answer what you proposed when you said a spirit is not a being.

Now your trying to say a spirit is a being as long as it applies to God, Pleeeeeease at least be consistent. 

Like God, we too can create and destroy. I said the battle ground is in the mind and spirits can be created by mankind as well as God ontologically for a purpose though we do not know it at the time since God created us that way. Your logic is flawed because you again assume a position that doesn't exist and has never been stated. It sees you cannot comprehend what a spirit is, as you need to, like most people, associate it as being anthropomorphic beings, rather than what they actually are which are spirits.

And like I said Craig if man creates devils then man is the devils father, yet Jesus reverse that order. Also you say God creates spirits seemingly to destroy them at a later date, yet scripture state God is the Father of spirits. Therefore your saying God will destroy His children.   

God created the first Serpent, where did it come from but from within woman.

Let me show once again, what evil spirits are and where they come from.

Mark 7:20-23
And Jesus was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart (mind) of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

And like I have said repeatedly Craig I don't have a problem with that scenario my problem is with those who hold to the belief that that is the only truth out there.
Milk and meat are both true and you are rejecting one of those in favour of the other and you are wrong to do so.

God is conversing with Satan which is a spirit. Technically a being, but not a being like mankind or God himself

First satan is a spirit but not a being and now satan is a spirit and a being but different then God or man, Craig you accuse me of not paying attention, but when you flop around like a fish out of water what conclusion can anyone understand of you.

First a spirit is not a being.
Then a spirit is a being when applied to God.

Second satan is not a being
Then satan is a being but different then man or God.

[pneuma]

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Those gods were either a) Figments of man's imagination or b) men who assumed the place of power (as most ancient religions did).

We can choose to follow spirits (the thoughts, strongholds, imaginations, empty arguments, etc.) the things that are Death or follow the Spirit (Truth, Knowledge, Wisdom, Love) the Thing that is Life.

See, that's where we disagree (which is ok, just want to be clear about it).  When Moses has his 'shooting match' with the prophets of Baal, those prophets are performing miracles, etc.  Moses wins because they decide that his God is bigger than their god.

To me, these other gods that men serve (Satan and his demons) are real. There is a power which is not of God. Sorcery, witchcraft, etc taps into a real power that is of the unholy one.  I have seen it.  That is why God forbids these practices.  Certainly the men they kill on the alter of their gods are real.  Their death is real.  And, those that serve death will die.


Numbers 25:5
So Moses ordered Israel's judges, "Each of you must put to death the men under your authority who have joined in worshiping Baal of Peor."

:thumbsup:

[Craig]

hen Moses has his 'shooting match' with the prophets of Baal, those prophets are performing miracles, etc.  Moses wins because they decide that his God is bigger than their god.

Because their god does not exist!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

I like your approach in this post!   :goodpost: :clapping:

And after reading it, find that you and I do not really have much disagreement concerning the issue presented in the TOPIC...

You admit below a bit of impatience concerning the listening capabilities of others... Well, we ALL are in that boat brother (we all have this trouble with one another)... We ALL have moments where we say to ourselves, "why can't he/she HEAR?  How can I word this, that he/she will, ...GET IT?

Though it seems like I go through this with people in this forum, I apologize for my short patience in some of the replies I see from some. It is tiring to continue seeing people attribute their assumptions of what someone believes as what a person believes, and after so many years of having this topic discussed the same objections, which were answered, keep being used despite them being refuted. It is difficult to have a discussion with people who cannot listen.

We are emerged in a discussion of words which is basically and simulataneously, BOTH our greatest friend and enemy...

There is a part of "we" here that does not believe "satan" is a spirit... ME!

This is semantics. What you describe later and previously in your post WillieH, is what I know to be called a spirit.

This is what "you know"... and you stand by that... that's cool with me... I "know" a different perspective, which, like yourself, I stand by... and YES it is a matter of semantics, for WORDS are either found flowing to one another as a river, or are held hostage from flowing to one another as is a dam to a river... 

GOD means this to be so... which is HIS DOING... as He concludes ALL in UNBELIEF... and it is HIS MERCY which frees us from that UNBELIEF by the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST... the INNER MAN...

Being able to understand the words of another -- is the BIGGEST conduit AND obstacle to communication.  GOD means this to be so...

He has put the Cherubim (another discussion) in place and only HE can remove them from performing their duties within our communications...

I think it is more how we view the process (which is finite), rather than what the process actually IS (which is eternal)...

If my observation of your words is correct, ...You see "satan" as a manifestation of a "SPIRIT" in man... an individual adversary IN us...

I see "satan" as an IT... a principle which is WITHIN the flesh (the OUTWARD man), NATURALLY warring against the SPIRIT (of CHRIST) which is also IN [each] man... (John 1:9)

I see it (not he) as the NATURAL (carnal/fleshly) state in which man was created... (that it was there, waiting to emerge in his actions)  As natural and part of Adam as his heart beating, or liver functioning, digestion of food, etc...

CHRIST noted that "satan" was a liar and murderer from the BEGINNING... well, CHRIST is the BEGINNING of all things... so "satan" was present in ADAM before he actually manifested his ADVERSARIAL actions...

Only difference, it was a principle of MIND conveyed in ACTIONS, which was either in Harmony with the INNER MAN (CHRIST), or ADVERSE to Him, who was ALWAYS there from each "beginning" for HE IS the BEGINNING (and the END)...  Very much like the digestive process was not enacted until ADAM ate something... or the liver did not process liquids until he drank something...

We cannot "begin" without CHRIST, for He ...IS... the BEGINNING.  :thumbsup:  And upon that "BEGINNING", was "satan" found present...

Concerning the INNER man - CHRIST - Paul explains this process admirably in Rom 7, explaining that there is a twofold man in each of us... one being the OUTWARD NATURAL or carnal, ...the other being the INWARD SPIRITUAL - CHRIST...

CHRIST said... I will NEVER leave you, nor forsake you... NEVER is a word which means that He was positioned from the BEGINNING, ...IN... man, in order to NEVER leave Him...

He did not state:  "once I am "IN YOU" I will NEVER leave you... He stated this in terms of His position from the BEGINNING, meaning He is with each of us FROM our "beginning", NEVER to leave us... NOTHING can SEPARATE us from Him - Rom 8:38-39

CHRIST is a REVEALED entity... a thing that is REVEALED is present, just not understood or seen as present, until it is REVEALED... 

For example... a painting by an artist which is covered at an gallery exhibit is OBSCURED by the COVER... yet is still EXISTENT in the exhibit gallery... Only upon the REMOVAL of the COVER is the painting SEEN or KNOWN by the eyes of the beholders...

GOD says that He is not a respecter of persons... CHRIST was a MAN, therefore a person...

Some of the biggest differences between CHRIST and ourselves, is that He was (1) in part, parented by the HOLY SPIRIT (2) Had the TRUTH of GOD as an UNRESTRICTED and UNOBSCURED commodity within [fullness of divinity] (3) was the "HEAD", sent to save the "BODY"...  :happygrin:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Quote from: pneuma
Craig you know very well you are taking that out of context, low blow bro.

Wow Scott!  You really "waxed poetic" bratha!  :thumbsup:  (just kidnya!  :grin:)

It's actually a "tongue -- twister!"  Try repeating it quickly!  :laughing7:


peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[pneuma]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Quote from: pneuma
Craig you know very well you are taking that out of context, low blow bro.

Wow Scott!  You really "waxed poetic" bratha!  :thumbsup:  (just kidnya!  :grin:)

It's actually a "tongue -- twister!"  Try repeating it quickly!  :laughing7:


peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

:laughing7: yep, now try


A big black bug bit a big black bear 5 times  :winkgrin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

As I pick my tongue out of my teeth,  :tease:

try this one... GOOD BLOOD -- BAD BLOOD!  :laughing7:


peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Craig]

ou admit below a bit of impatience concerning the listening capabilities of others... Well, we ALL are in that boat brother (we all have this trouble with one another)... We ALL have moments where we say to ourselves, "why can't he/she HEAR?  How can I word this, that he/she will, ...GET IT?

After 4 years of saying it, it isn't impatience. So, there is no admission of impatience, it is an understanding that there is no reason for patience any longer since there was ample enough time for someone to actually 'get' it, just as Jesus had no patience for the money changers in the temple and the pharisee who condemn Israel to desolation.

What I said is, it is difficult to discuss things with people who do not listen.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

Like you said in your answer, ...semantics...

Nothing slanderous was meant in my remark... on the contrary, I commended your post on the whole...

I was just noting SHORT PATIENCE to a BIT of Impatience... which it basically, IS...

"Short patience" would mean to most... patience that is very limited...  :bigGrin:

Just as PATIENT would mean to most... a patience that is not limited...  :dontknow:

you admit below a bit of impatience concerning the listening capabilities of others... Well, we ALL are in that boat brother (we all have this trouble with one another)... We ALL have moments where we say to ourselves, "why can't he/she HEAR?  How can I word this, that he/she will, ...GET IT?

After 4 years of saying it, it isn't impatience. So, there is no admission of impatience, it is an understanding that there is no reason for patience any longer since there was ample enough time for someone to actually 'get' it, just as Jesus had no patience for the money changers in the temple and the pharisee who condemn Israel to desolation.

What I said is, it is difficult to discuss things with people who do not listen.

The "get it" factor is either GOD closing the ears of the "listener" because the speaker is either speaking a TRUTH which GOD has decided that "listener" is yet to be authorized to know, OR...

That the speaker is speaking FALSELY, and GOD has decided that the "listener" not be corrupted by the speaker...

Here is what you said:

Though it seems like I go through this with people in this forum, I apologize for my short patience in some of the replies I see from some. It is tiring to continue seeing people attribute their assumptions of what someone believes as what a person believes, and after so many years of having this topic discussed the same objections, which were answered, keep being used despite them being refuted. It is difficult to have a discussion with people who cannot listen.

ALL people do not listen from time to time brother...

ALL...

So each of us must find a way to exercise the patience we are able, within our discussions, concerning that which, ALL do on occasion... that being:  NOT LISTENING...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Not disputing that possibility,  but the depiction of Satan in Job raises a larger question here than no one is answering concerning what Satan is and whether he will just disappear or a created being that will also be transformed. People give their explanations, but ignore the picture in Job where he is conversing with God as a being.  

God is conversing with Satan which is a spirit. Technically a being, but not a being like mankind or God himself.

I don't disagree with what you say to the extent I need to take issue with it.  What I will say it that there is what you say and more.

I agree that there is a difference in "What" satan is.  He is not flesh, so, of course he is not really the Red Devil with the pitchfork and tail,  He is not omni present as God is.

But, in our realm I believe he is a spirit entity outside the thinking of our mind. I think he can move too and fro and up and down in the earth very quickly. 

God sending a delusional spirit is also different from Satan.  There was never any conversation depicted in the bible with those types of spirits.

So I believe he is an entity that can move about outside of our thinking.   I believe that is one thing the story of Job is telling us about Satan.   Certainly there is the issue of Jobs mind as he has to deal with what is going on in his thinking.

But, Jobs family was killed and it was not only in his mind that this took place. 

So thats mainly all that I am saying,  I sure can be wrong on various points I make, I have no problem with that.   Satan as a being, technically or not,  there is the depiction that he is more than just our thoughts, or there would be no reason for the story leading that direction.

[Craig]

I understand. I believe Satan is also outside us, it is a spirit that God created.

[Craig]

It is not lack of patience, it is my patience is short with those who do not listen. This is not lack of patience. One is negative, the other is proactive.

[willieH]

So, there is no admission of impatience, it is an understanding that there is no reason for patience any longer since there was ample enough time for someone to actually 'get' it, just as Jesus had no patience for the money changers in the temple and the pharisee who condemn Israel to desolation.

What I said is, it is difficult to discuss things with people who do not listen.

FIRST... Sorry, but I do not agree that JESUS was IMPATIENT in the temple... He exerted RIGHTEOUS judgement upon what they were doing... It did not have anything to do with "patience"...

This thinking would lead to GOD being IMPATIENT when He calls an end to this realm... to say His "patience" with "sin" ran out... which to me is an observation which is amiss...

GOD has PURPOSE to EVERYTHING... and JESUS' actions were PURPOSED within the mission, and according to the moment YHVH God PURPOSED they occur...

SECOND... amounts of TIME have NOTHING to do with REVELATION from GOD... which is the "get it" factor that matters...

He REVEALS His WORD, THROUGH whom HE chooses, ...WHEN HE chooses, and ...TO whomever, HE chooses... it is not according to US... and anything we might percieve we know...

Our part is to remain submitted to Him... that should HE CHOOSE according to HIMSELF  and HIS PURPOSE, ...He might use us and our words, as a tool to REVEAL Himself (truth) to others...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Craig]

Whatever man. Whatever floats your boat.

[willieH]

Whatever man. Whatever floats your boat.

You know brother... your demeanor has not changed an iota, in four years...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Craig]

Whatever man. Whatever floats your boat.

You know brother... your demeanor has not changed an iota, in four years...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

Whatever you think, I have others who can testify otherwise. You are the one who wants to be an 'elder', so act like one. I am not going to argue this any more. So whatever you want to think, you think, that is your prerogative and when you tell people I am thinking something when I am not, you will be rebuked over and over.

[martincisneros]

Ease up on the character generalizations about each other based upon a disagreement on definitions.  We've been down this road before and it doesn't really go anywhere fruitful and usually winds up having someone calling me for someone's head or whatever. I put up my ax years ago when I left the ET scene. :icon_jokercolor:

[WhiteWings]

It is not lack of patience, it is my patience is short with those who do not listen. This is not lack of patience. One is negative, the other is proactive.
[/quote

I can't look it other peoples minds. Even my own mind sometimes is a mystery for me... :mblush:
Most likely there is a group of people that don't want to listen. But often people for some reason aren't able to listen.
That's also true in life outside Bible study.
The Bible are not just some isolated verses as you surely know. After years of study people finally taste victory because they figured out all those hidden links between the verses. That is even true for me that is at the bottom of the Biblical understanding ladder.
Right now I don't see the fuss about this part of the discussion. Satan is a red guy with a pitchfork? a spirit? a feeling? It doesn't matter for me right now. Whatever he/it is its negative. When people get higher on the ladder of understanding the 'shape' of Satan may become far more important. The real point is this: (IMO)
Take for example you (Craig) debating a ET fanatic. Both with know their Bible inside out. Now you start a discussion about aion.
Your opponent listens to your argument and thinks: Mmm, Craig as a point. He can backup his weird claims. He's far more smarter than I thought.
And then suddenly the brain of your opponent locks up. But... if Craig is right then.... what about the implication of <list of 1000 verses>
Then suddenly the brain has to reprocess 20 years of Bible study. It can't. Perhaps it tries but keeps verifying the new info with the old info.
And then.... well the change/understanding stops.
I'm now assuming the shape of Satan is affecting many verses (can't comment on that myself).
When you explain in your mind a simple concept of satan then the brain of your discussing partner starts referencing to all those other verses and implications.
Basically for the understanding of that one word the whole brain needs to retrained...
And ofcourse reverified and studied because beware of false theachers! (no pun intended here)
And that can take a (very) long time

I hope the above makes more sense to you than it does to me  :laughing7:

[Sarah]

But, in our realm I believe he is a spirit entity outside the thinking of our mind. I think he can move too and fro and up and down in the earth very quickly.

I believe this too somewhat. I just don't believe it is a central intelligence if you will. More like a parasite. Maybe I'm wrong but I felt that the Lord showed me it was like mosquitoes, or that parasite that destroys colonies of insects by infecting their brains, growing out of it, and releasing spores.

A few questions I had if someone has any insight regarding legion.

1. Did it want to go into the pigs to avoid torment?
2. What would this torment include?
3. Why would Jesus allow this?
4. And then why would it then kill the pigs?

For some reason in my thinking it seems that demons want a host, and it doesn't make sense it would kill the pigs.

[willieH]

Whatever man. Whatever floats your boat.

You know brother... your demeanor has not changed an iota, in four years...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

Whatever you think, I have others who can testify otherwise. You are the one who wants to be an 'elder', so act like one. I am not going to argue this any more. So whatever you want to think, you think, that is your prerogative and when you tell people I am thinking something when I am not, you will be rebuked over and over.

what a pity...  :pitiful:

As far as an "elder" is concerned, get over it!  Thank GOD it is not up to YOU whether I am such a thing or not... GOD chooses who IS and who is NOT, ...within HIS PURPOSE, according to His WILL not yours...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[jabcat]

A few questions I had if someone has any insight regarding legion.

1. Did it want to go into the pigs to avoid torment?
2. What would this torment include?
3. Why would Jesus allow this?
4. And then why would it then kill the pigs?

For some reason in my thinking it seems that demons want a host, and it doesn't make sense it would kill the pigs.

Interesting questions I'm not sure I have the answers to.  However, I believe it's in Thomas Kissinger's book "The Noble Berean", that he addresses this to some degree.  His thoughts address Satan as being God's tool, and that God and Satan, though in an "adversarial" position, are not on "I'm gon'na kill you" terms...that the demons, though certainly uncomfortable in Jesus' presence, were actually on "speaking terms" with Him, and made a request that Jesus fulfilled for them.  I know this isn't a total answer, but may give some things to think about and explore.  For instance, when Satan and God discussed Job....that was less of a violent argument than a conversation...sort of makes it easier for me to think in terms of Satan and all beings eventually being cleansed and reconciled...

Not having yet been reconciled, maybe they (the legion) would "burn" in His presence, so sort of wildly "ran amock" to get out of His presence ("let's get the heck out of Dodge") and plunged over the cliff out of a sort of desperation?  Just guessing here. :dontknow:.

God's blessing, James.

[Craig]

As far as an "elder" is concerned, get over it!  Thank GOD it is not up to YOU whether I am such a thing or not... GOD chooses who IS and who is NOT,
peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

You finally admit it, been waiting 4 years for you to realize that. Good.

[Molly]

Is this thread supposed to be some kind of street theatre of *satan at work* ?


22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

--Gal 5

[martincisneros]

For some reason in my thinking it seems that demons want a host, and it doesn't make sense it would kill the pigs.

Trying to limit my comments here because of the purpose of the thread and of the boards, but basically it was the pigs that were refusing demonic oppression and possession. Some would argue the fear of the demons in trying to get away from Jesus, but there's some types and shadows and some Bible prophecy numerology related to this passage that relate to other aspects of Bible prophecy where animals are specifically concerned that I won't hijack the thread with related passages and exposition of. You have both the aspect of the pigs refusing the demonic oppression and possession and the fact that these particular spirits were related to self harm, because that's what the demoniac that Jesus freed was doing to himself. He was constantly cutting himself. Self hatred is actually the presence of demons. When it lifts when someone binds, rebukes, and resists it in the Name of Jesus then that's one of your number 1 clues.