The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Craig]

I agree Molly, how people get Jesus casting the imaginations of man into a herd of swine out of those scriptures is beyond me

Who said they were imaginations? Once again, both Molly and yourself always ASSUME what you do not know and debase it down to it's lowest denominator. Is the spirit of giving a vain imagination? Is an evil spirit a vain imagination? Nope. You both lose in your perception department because nobody here said that, even after I explained what spirits were in previous articles and threads and the little I put in this, there is NO WHERE that assumption can be made. You do a good job to try to confuse the issue with your vain imaginations of what others are talking about but never actually looking for understanding at all.

[Molly]

I agree Molly, how people get Jesus casting the imaginations of man into a herd of swine out of those scriptures is beyond me

Who said they were imaginations? Once again, both Molly and yourself always ASSUME what you do not know and debase it down to it's lowest denominator. Is the spirit of giving a vain imagination? Is an evil spirit a vain imagination? Nope. You both lose in your perception department because nobody here said that, even after I explained what spirits were in previous articles and threads and the little I put in this, there is NO WHERE that assumption can be made. You do a good job to try to confuse the issue with your vain imaginations of what others are talking about but never actually looking for understanding at all.

Is there such a thing as 'the spirit of giving'?

Is that in the Bible?

Why don't you just speak in a positive fashion instead of a negative fashion?

Is there a spirit of negativity?

I will know what you are talking about only if you tell me.

God is a Spirit.  Is God a being?  Or something else?

[Taffy]

1And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

2And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

4Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

5And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

12And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

14And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

15And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

16And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.

17And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.

18And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.

19Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.

20And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

--Mark 5

I agree Molly, how people get Jesus casting the imaginations of man into a herd of swine out of those scriptures is beyond me.

Hi Scott,
Ya know to well i Indeed respect your input Bro,... :icon_flower:    and not just that ,but also you .having got to know you some over the seasons. :icon_flower:

Like yourself. Im away very much from debate,..well I try....Its not always that easy as Ya Know :icon_flower:

I realy dont mean to take poetic licence Bro but I see SPIRIT meaning very MUCH """LIFE""", therefore, one , if you will, from My understanding at least, see this very much, as Moving FROM DEATH to LIFE, the confusion , Maybe, being the term Spirit bro,...,agaian , im sure i must bore other stupid, but,..the UNCLEAN spirits are likene to FROGS in Rev....ya may find them to be LIARS bro???...ya Know, murderes, Liars, the SONS of thier fathers?????

Each KINGDOM finds ITS own ,....as  LAW and Grace and TRUTH dont mix,..ya Know them SWINE,"" choked in the SEA"..DEAD THAT is, and we KNOW ALL FLESH needs to die before its LIVES..............esh,..awful strange that we KNOW that the FLESH of PIG is very much like that MAN,..did ya Know, yrs back, they used PIGS valves in Heart surgery,  

What Mark talks of is..Moving from Life to Death, from LAW to Grace..just like the parables....

Well that my take scott..and as a Bro, I too respect your understanding Liewise matey.... :icon_flower:..without the NEED for debate.
Blessings
G

[WhiteWings]

Phew, this is hard to explain/answer for me.
In short God did create sin.

Not according to scripture bro for sin is of the devil.

And the devil is a part of God creation.

Explanation:
God created everything.

Yes but man has corrupted everything God created.

That includes the corrupt human brain.

There is NOTHING wrong with the human brain, the mind only becomes corrupt upon listening to the voice of satan. But if you see satan as being nothing more then the imaginations of mans mind I guess there would be no difference to you.

So the ability to even think of the sad things like wars and torture mankind has done is a sign of a perfect brain.
Jesus had a perfect brain that could resist all tempations.
I admit I have no clear picture how I see Satan but certainly not imaginary.

God is very well knew, even before creation, that mankind would sin.

I agree, but having foreknowledge of an event and being responsible for the event are two different animals.

I disagree with that. Place a Jew in a cellblock with 100 skinheads. And then act suprised if the Jew gets an 'accident'.
The warden did knew the skinheads had the ability to hate and kill the Jew but just took the 0.000000001% change the Jew would become close friends with the skinheads.

God is also very capable creating sinless humans or other things.
Somehow He made the choice to made us as we are.
Doesn't that imply He created sin.

It would only imply God created sin if man did not have free will to make a choice.

The skinheads also had a free choice.... The outcome of that was very predictable.
My point is if the chance that someone lives up to your (=God) standards is very close to zero. The Bible even states all men are sinners. God knew that verse/fact before he started creation. He has given mankind a (limited) free will as you said. I agree with that. But God knew even before He started creation free will always choses the wrong path.
If we are talking about cars it would be called a design flaw.
But if we talk about Gods creation it suddenly is free will?
I want to add I do not believe our sinful nature is a design flaw. Gods design works 100% as He designed it to work.
For me it means He for some purpose, that we humans perhaps don't understand, created sin.

That's how I view it  :icon_flower:

[Craig]

Why don't you just speak in a positive fashion instead of a negative fashion?

Because it doesn't matter any more. Pneuma made it clear he doesn't care what others think only what he thinks and you keep going off on tangents that have no relevance to the discussion. Compare the Spirit of God to a demonic spirit again, and see how positive this conversation will go. You think they are the same thing?

[Taffy]

I agree Molly, how people get Jesus casting the imaginations of man into a herd of swine out of those scriptures is beyond me

Who said they were imaginations? Once again, both Molly and yourself always ASSUME what you do not know and debase it down to it's lowest denominator. Is the spirit of giving a vain imagination? Is an evil spirit a vain imagination? Nope. You both lose in your perception department because nobody here said that, even after I explained what spirits were in previous articles and threads and the little I put in this, there is NO WHERE that assumption can be made. You do a good job to try to confuse the issue with your vain imaginations of what others are talking about but never actually looking for understanding at all.

Is there such a thing as 'the spirit of giving'?

Is that in the Bible?

Why don't you just speak in a positive fashion instead of a negative fashion?

Is there a spirit of negativity?

I will know what you are talking about only if you tell me.

God is a Spirit.  Is God a being?  Or something else?

Hi Molly...

the SPIRIT of.............LIFE AND DEATH....

he he,..

Craig summed it upp for mine at least, some posts Back...what spirit relates to....go re read.

Im maybe a little more simplistic....., Maybe we could say..the SPIRIT is what we BEATHE life INTO...

As God IS LIFE ,HE is "ultimate SPIRIT :icon_flower:
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness



BUT we have those with the spirit of DARKNESS,UNCLEAN, OR MAYBE """ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh."Dare I say evil"

maybe we can state...FALSE life, or Lying Life....or even, the MINISTRY of DEATH....go figure

Taffy

[Craig]

Maybe we could say..the SPIRIT is what we BEATHE life INTO

Indeed Taffy, that is the jist of it. That which one makes their idol, becomes their God. That which one makes their law, because their Law. That doesn't mean that there is not God, and His Law of Life in Christ Jesus. We need to renew our minds, and repent and put on the Mind of God so that we have God and the Law of Life in us. He is working outside us to bring Himself to us and in us.

So that which we breathe life into... It get's even deeper, you imagine demons, they appear and their life appears beyond your influence and can affect others. Walk into a room not knowing something bad just happened, and the air is tense? Ever walk into a place of great joy, and just feel it? Those are spirits, spirits others created by their belief and action. When you walk into an evil spirit, you can cast it out and rebuke it and it will leave in Jesus Name. Therefore, changing the spirit that was there and bringing in the Spirit of Life into the situation.

[rosered]

  That was a great simile    Craig ,  thank you  :happy3:

[rosered]

  I would  go as far as to say its the power 
not the tongue  itself that gives life or death
  a spirit / as  breath   has power


Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

[martincisneros]

Maybe we could say..the SPIRIT is what we BREATHE life INTO

Indeed Taffy, that is the jist of it. That which one makes their idol, becomes their God. That which one makes their law, because their Law. That doesn't mean that there is not God, and His Law of Life in Christ Jesus. We need to renew our minds, and repent and put on the Mind of God so that we have God and the Law of Life in us. He is working outside us to bring Himself to us and in us.

So that which we breathe life into... It get's even deeper, you imagine demons, they appear and their life appears beyond your influence and can affect others. Walk into a room not knowing something bad just happened, and the air is tense? Ever walk into a place of great joy, and just feel it? Those are spirits, spirits others created by their belief and action. When you walk into an evil spirit, you can cast it out and rebuke it and it will leave in Jesus Name. Therefore, changing the spirit that was there and bringing in the Spirit of Life into the situation.

:goodpost:

[Taffy]

  I would  go as far as to say its the power 
not the tongue  itself that gives life or death
  a spirit / as  breath   has power


Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Indeed Rosey :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Maybe we could say..the SPIRIT is what we BREATHE life INTO

Indeed Taffy, that is the jist of it. That which one makes their idol, becomes their God. That which one makes their law, because their Law. That doesn't mean that there is not God, and His Law of Life in Christ Jesus. We need to renew our minds, and repent and put on the Mind of God so that we have God and the Law of Life in us. He is working outside us to bring Himself to us and in us.

So that which we breathe life into... It get's even deeper, you imagine demons, they appear and their life appears beyond your influence and can affect others. Walk into a room not knowing something bad just happened, and the air is tense? Ever walk into a place of great joy, and just feel it? Those are spirits, spirits others created by their belief and action. When you walk into an evil spirit, you can cast it out and rebuke it and it will leave in Jesus Name. Therefore, changing the spirit that was there and bringing in the Spirit of Life into the situation.

:goodpost:

Dat you Martin.. :icon_flower:..the EVER changing face?....avatar :laughing7:

Thanks for the re edit  R  ,,,...Now ,could you spend a Life time doing the same to thousands of old posts of mine,,,,, :laughing7: :laughing7:

T :icon_flower:




...

[Taffy]

I agree Molly, how people get Jesus casting the imaginations of man into a herd of swine out of those scriptures is beyond me

Who said they were imaginations? Once again, both Molly and yourself always ASSUME what you do not know and debase it down to it's lowest denominator. Is the spirit of giving a vain imagination? Is an evil spirit a vain imagination? Nope. You both lose in your perception department because nobody here said that, even after I explained what spirits were in previous articles and threads and the little I put in this, there is NO WHERE that assumption can be made. You do a good job to try to confuse the issue with your vain imaginations of what others are talking about but never actually looking for understanding at all.

Is there such a thing as 'the spirit of giving'?

Is that in the Bible?

Why don't you just speak in a positive fashion instead of a negative fashion?

Is there a spirit of negativity?

I will know what you are talking about only if you tell me.

God is a Spirit.  Is God a being?  Or something else?

Hi Molly...

the SPIRIT of.............LIFE AND DEATH....

he he,..

Craig summed it upp for mine at least, some posts Back...what spirit relates to....go re read.

Im maybe a little more simplistic....., Maybe we could say..the SPIRIT is what we BEATHE life INTO...

As God IS LIFE ,HE is "ultimate SPIRIT :icon_flower:
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness



BUT we have those with the spirit of DARKNESS,UNCLEAN, OR MAYBE """ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh."Dare I say evil"

maybe we can state...FALSE life, or Lying Life....or even, the MINISTRY of DEATH....go figure

Taffy

Shut it Taffy...you Welsh be all the SAME... :icon_flower:

jABBER ...jABBER..AND jabber

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

[Taffy]

  I would  go as far as to say its the power 
not the tongue  itself that gives life or death
  a spirit / as  breath   has power


Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Hi SiS..
ya KNOW that POWER... :icon_flower:...ME THINKS IT very Much over looked when I see this verse QUOTED so many times....for mine, takes a WHOLE, COMPLETE\ oneness OF meaning :icon_flower:

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

OH....tis hidden everywhere...

Blessings sis
T

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 

[Taffy]

Maybe we could say..the SPIRIT is what we BEATHE life INTO

Indeed Taffy, that is the jist of it. That which one makes their idol, becomes their God. That which one makes their law, because their Law. That doesn't mean that there is not God, and His Law of Life in Christ Jesus. We need to renew our minds, and repent and put on the Mind of God so that we have God and the Law of Life in us. He is working outside us to bring Himself to us and in us.

So that which we breathe life into... It get's even deeper, you imagine demons, they appear and their life appears beyond your influence and can affect others. Walk into a room not knowing something bad just happened, and the air is tense? Ever walk into a place of great joy, and just feel it? Those are spirits, spirits others created by their belief and action. When you walk into an evil spirit, you can cast it out and rebuke it and it will leave in Jesus Name. Therefore, changing the spirit that was there and bringing in the Spirit of Life into the situation.

:icon_flower:

Sorta makes it easy to understand aye Bro... :icon_flower:...

[Paul Hazelwood]

The garden of eden is where satan and his angels fell from heaven?

Satan and his messengers never fell from any higher plane.  They were created exactly as they were and they were not in the Garden of Eden. 

The war with the Dragon, was the greek language depicting the hebrew story of the Garden of Eden. 

This


Re 12:7 And a battle occurred~ in *heaven. *Michael and his *messengers *battle with the dragon, and the dragon battles, and its *messengers.

Re 12:8 And they are not strong enough towardfor him, neither was their place still found in *heaven.


relating this

Battle with the dragon (Serpent nature of man)

Genesis 3: 1-7


Gn 3:14 And saying is Yahweh Elohim to the serpent,  "As you do this, most cursed are you of every beast, and of all field life. On your torso shall you go, and soil shall you eat all the days of your lives.


Yahweh Elohim is plural......

Their place was no more in heaven........
Gn 3:23 And Yahweh Elohim is sending him away from the garden of Eden to serve the ground whence he is taken.

Gn 3:24 And He is driving out the human, and is causing him to tabernacle at the east of the garden of Eden. And He set the cherubim, and a flaming sword turning itself, to keep the way of the tree of the living.


I'm learning that the new testament has a fascinating multiple nature when it comes to words.   "fowls of the air"  The word air in some translations also use the word heaven, because it is the same word.  Usage and context is the only way to get to the proper relationship of the word.

Luke 10:18 in context is talking about the strong hold of pride falling due to the text talking about the seventy disciples he appointed having an awe that they had the power over the devils.  That realization was Satan falling in the realms of their spiritual power.  Satan is more than just this singular entity as representative in scripture.

So, who are his angels in the garden?

The messenger rightly called the  angels of God, who never have and never will fall.   There are no fallen angels of God, they do not exist.

And, who is michael and his angels in the garden?  Is that Adam?

Nope,  your still thinking adam is sinless and he is not.  I have no proof positive that the aspect of adam and eve and the picture of their corruption was michael and his angels driving them to the realm of the carnal flesh.   But I refuse to allow the contradiction of the story of a perfect paradise with God being corrupted into my thinking any longer.

I'm willing to be wrong about everything I have said concerning heaven realms and such,   I refuse to allow the christendom nonsense of failed perfection to pervert me.

Then that must happen after the account in Job?

You have to realize where I am coming from.   I do not believe Satan was in the picture in the garden of eden.

It is the picture of the creation of a being with the ability to sin and the serpent is the picture that EXPLAINS how sin works within us.   SIN is in us as Paul explains what it is that causes him to do the things he knows he should not do.


The translated word "Satan" does not appear in scripture till Job,  this story explains exactly what Satans purpose is.   Satan is always depicted differently that the Serpent.

Satan is not crawling around on his belly.  Man crawls around the earth, figuratively in corruption, all of us, every one of us.

Satan is going To and Fro walking up and down in it. 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi molly...  :Sparkletooth:

Have to "catch up" was out of town the last few days for medical reasons...  :sigh:

Please note the SCRIPTURE which says the YOU shall SEE GOD while IN FLESH...

I thought I did.

NO... you didn't! :mnah:

Mat 5
8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

This says NOTHING about "being in FLESH" when this takes place...

I myself make no such claim as to be "pure of heart", for GOD is yet working on my heart, and it admittedly, does fall short of PURITY,

As long as you continue your disrespect in this thread, ...you join me, coming short of being "pure of heart"... because of that disrespect, Molly  :sigh:

Until you and I begin to respect one another MUCH better, neither of us can make this claim...  :crywipe:

(this includes your purposed misspellings of my name -- you see that as emerging from a PURE HEART?)

So let me begin by apologizing  :flowerred: ...for my "get a clue" remarks to you, which were unnecessary and had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make to you...

If anything they helped to deter my intention, instead of help it.  They were just reactions to your ongoing insistance to discuss other than the TOPIC... but again, were just plain unnecessary.  :blush:  :Mcry:

Job does see God while he is still in the flesh.  He spends the last part of the book of Job talking to God.

Job speaking to God does not mean he SAW God...

CHRIST:  (John 6:46) not that ANY MAN hath SEEN the FATHER, ...he that hath SEEN ME, hath SEEN the Father... (Job did not SEE CHRIST, did he Molly?)

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

14And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

--Mat 17

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Anne & Scott... :hithere:

ANNE:

There is a part of "we" here that does not believe "satan" is a spirit... ME!

I agree with Taffy and Craig... Satan is a spirit...

Anne no one is questioning whether satan is a spirit or not, we all agree he is a spirit, the debate is whether a spirit is a being or just the carnal mind of man.

SCOTT:

This is incorrect bro! ...You know that I do NOT believe that "satan" is a "spirit" which is sentient, fallen, nor purposed as an individual...  :dontknow:

I believe "satan" is exactly what the word means in Hebrew:  ADVERSITY which is the ADVERSARY of GOD (which is TRUTH)... 

And that the NATURAL state of man is >>IN<<  this ADVERSARIAL position IN THE FLESH... with no help from a mythical "being" invented by men.

If it is just the carnal mind of man then God is also just man imagination for God is a spirit.

This is just a statement which "naturally" follows your belief that satan is a "he" and is an ENTITY, and not a principality governing the NATURAL state of man...

Satan greatest deception is that he has gotten man to beleive he does not exist.

This is the most ironic statement of the post...  :dontknow:

I believe that the "greatest deception" is that the "church" which calls itself Christianity has convinced itself (self decieved),  that "satan" is a BEING, ...and that this "being" is CONTINUOUSLY present with ALL MEN (making "him" omnipresent - an attribute of GOD alone)...

And armed with these astray deductions, ...is preaching this erroneous message to the world (man)...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Craig]

Though it seems like I go through this with people in this forum, I apologize for my short patience in some of the replies I see from some. It is tiring to continue seeing people attribute their assumptions of what someone believes as what a person believes, and after so many years of having this topic discussed the same objections, which were answered, keep being used despite them being refuted. It is difficult to have a discussion with people who cannot listen.

I agree with Taffy and Craig... Satan is a spirit...

What a spirit is, is what is being discussed now. Satan does exist, but he is not a being but a spirit, a lying spirit which was created outside the truth because the truth was never in him. This spirit resides in all mankind and outside mankind (because God created him that way). We call it a 'him' to identify that is part of mankind which is an 'adversary' to God and to itself, but not God or mankind itself.

There is a part of "we" here that does not believe "satan" is a spirit... ME!

This is semantics. What you describe later and previously in your post WillieH, is what I know to be called a spirit.

And that the NATURAL state of man is >>IN<<  this ADVERSARIAL position IN THE FLESH... with no help from a mythical "being" invented by men.

I agree, that adversarial position in the flesh, is also known as a spirit. That adversarial position in the flesh can manifest itself in many particular ways, especially since the battle ground has always been in the mind.

Romans 7:22-23
For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

James 7:7-8
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.g me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Ephesians 4:17-27
So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.

You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. "In your anger do not sin"[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Satan is a product of the adversarial mindset, a product of the spirit of the mind called and therefore also a spirit. The heavenly realms, is the head, as Paul stated in Romans 7, the war is waged in the mind.

Now read the following and find out where the serpent came from. I have numbered them, and want you to compare.

Genesis 3:1-5
(1)Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
(2)When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
(3)Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Isaiah 59:3-5
For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. (1) Your lips have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters wicked things.No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments and speak lies; (2)they conceive trouble and give birth to evil. They hatch the eggs of vipers and spin a spider's web. Whoever eats their eggs will die, and when one is broken, an adder is hatched. (3) Their cobwebs are useless for clothing; they cannot cover themselves with what they make. Their deeds are evil deeds, and acts of violence are in their hands. Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood.T  Their thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways.

1.
The first lie was, and reliance of empty arguments was introduced by the woman (woman:a part of man). It added to the command of God, going beyond what was commanded.
2.
This is the birth of evil, and the hatching of the serpent. The serpent came to be, because a part of man (woman) began to speculate a lie in order to justify an adversarial role to the command. The woman (part of man) gave birth to the serpent, the father of lies, one created outside the truth because the truth was never in him. A spirit of the mind.
3.
As a result of sin, man is found to be naked, unable to cover himself from what he has done in an adversarial role to God. His deeds are obvious, and he recognizes nothing he can do can hide himself from God. So they rush to evil and are quick to shed innocent blood, that is, they blame even God who created them, etc.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

This is Satan, the serpent, the evil spirit that resides in mankind and when we submit to God by renewing of the spirit of our minds and putting on the Mind of God (also known as the Spirit of God) we can resist this spirit, the devil, and it will flee from us.

What is a spirit? It is exactly what Taffy said so eloquently, it is the things we give 'breath' to. It is the things we give birth to by the spirit of our mind. It is what rosered affirmed by understanding it is the power of the tongue (also known as the mind).

This is why Paul says,

2 Corinthians 10:3-5
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds (of the mind). We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Evil spirits, are arguments, pretensions and thoughts that set itself up against (also known as ADVERSARY) to the knowledge of God. We are called as ambassadors in Christ, to take up the whole armour of God and demolish such spirits, taking every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ. In otherwords, submit to God, resist the devil and He will flee from you.

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

I don't know how much clearer this is. There are spirits that are created by, birthed by, conceived by false prophets. These are false knowledge, lies, errors, vain imaginations, that though given life, this life is not from the breath of God but the breath of mankind.

An objection? Experiencing demons, spirits, manifestations, possessions, etc.?

...because of the gift of discernment and the gift of knowledge, some people are able to comprehend a tactile (see, hear, smell, feel, taste) and an intuitive (mystical understanding) manifestation of arguments, pretensions, strongholds, thoughts, etc. This manifestation is commonly given form where there is no form so that one may recognize them for what they are, spirits whether good or evil. So that we can accurately test these spirits to see if they are from the Mind of God, or from the mind of man. Unfortunately, some people decide to believe what they see to be the truth rather than living by faith that what they see is not actually a tactile form but the gift of knowledge and discernment given to them so that they can cast the spirits which are evil, from them in the Name of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:13-16
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans 8:14-16
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God."

I could write on and on of this, but simply put: Satan (the serpent of old, the devil), is a spirit created by a part of man which justifies rebels against God's Law through lies, strongholds, arguments, pretensions, thoughts, principalities and powers of the mind which is not found in the truth and never part of the truth since they deny the knowledge of the Truth. These lies, arguments, strongholds, pretensions, thoughts, principalities and powers are an adversary to God, and our enemy which tempts us away from Him. This spirit is found in all mankind (not because He is omnipotent, but because it is part of mankind just as having mankind in all parts of the world does not make mankind omnipotent), and can be destroyed and resisted by submitting to God, putting on the mind of Christ, that is: repent, renew our mind by the washing of the Word of God, embracing the Spirit of God whom He has given us.

Once given life, a spirit is outside our sphere of influence and can appear to have a life of it's own, that is why we must cast it out. Spirits are real, they are not imaginary, even if they are can be products of our imagination. Spirits are not beings, even though they can have life of their own and behave independently to the will of mankind who consequently created them. Spirits are principalities and powers which operate in certain aspects, whether good or evil, created by God or mankind, but God is master over all things. Everything, including spirits, must submit to the Name of Jesus (to him who believes of course).

I am not making this stuff up, everything I say is accounted for in Scripture. I have seen angels, I have seen demons, I have seen spiritual forces at work which were created by people who have long gone from this earth continue to wreak havoc until they were cast out by the Name of Jesus.

They are not imaginary, they are real with substance.

All ministering spirits are angels sent by God to those to inherit salvation (that is all mankind as we understand). Teaches us all things pertaining to God. Created by God and mankind to ontologically fulfill a purpose.

All adversarial spirits are demons, devils, Satan who stands opposed to God by human traditions, vain imaginations, empty arguments, lies, hedges, laws, principalities, powers, wickedness, thoughts, pretensions which set itself up against the true knowledge of God. Created both by God and mankind to ontologically fulfill a purpose.

Fallen angels are men, who chosen by God to administer the Gospel fell into temptation and held by evil and began to work in human tradition, vain imagination, empty arguments, lies, hedges, laws, principalities, powers, wickedness, thoughts and pretension which set itself up against the true knowledge of God.

There is no documented proof of any good spirit, turning out to be evil or fallen.

[pneuma]

Hi Scott,
Ya know to well i Indeed respect your input Bro,... and not just that ,but also you .having got to know you some over the seasons.

Like yourself. Im away very much from debate,..well I try....Its not always that easy as Ya Know

I realy dont mean to take poetic licence Bro but I see SPIRIT meaning very MUCH """LIFE""", therefore, one , if you will, from My understanding at least, see this very much, as Moving FROM DEATH to LIFE, the confusion , Maybe, being the term Spirit bro,...,agaian , im sure i must bore other stupid, but,..the UNCLEAN spirits are likene to FROGS in Rev....ya may find them to be LIARS bro???...ya Know, murderes, Liars, the SONS of thier fathers?????

Each KINGDOM finds ITS own ,....as LAW and Grace and TRUTH dont mix,..ya Know them SWINE,"" choked in the SEA"..DEAD THAT is, and we KNOW ALL FLESH needs to die before its LIVES..............esh,..awful strange that we KNOW that the FLESH of PIG is very much like that MAN,..did ya Know, yrs back, they used PIGS valves in Heart surgery,

What Mark talks of is..Moving from Life to Death, from LAW to Grace..just like the parables....

Well that my take scott..and as a Bro, I too respect your understanding Liewise matey.... ..without the NEED for debate.
Blessings

Hi Graham, I to see satan, devils etc. as those things that apply to the flesh, but also believe some people take it to far and do away with the spirit being MOST refer to as satan.

I believe there are layers to scripture bro, and what it seems to me is that some have forsaking one layer for another, not realising the milk is still the word of God.
Graham the way I see it is the milk and the meat will work together, I'll use Roses thoughts as an example.


What Rose brought out on the man in the tomb was very good and I can agree with it, but that is one layer, but I would ask why he cut himself, was it because of the law which is ordained unto life, or because satan used the law to deceive and bring condemnation?

Thus you have the milk and the meat working together for a clearer imo understanding of what transpires in and around men.

Brother I have come into contact with these spirits and I know that they are more then just the imagination or conjuring of the carnal mind.

3 beings were in the garden.
Adam
Eve
Serpent.
Now if the serpent is a representation of those things in the carnal mind of man, why is it not until AFTER the serpent beguiled Eve and she ate along with Adam that God placed enmity between the two seeds?

And what is the enmity?

According to scripture it is the carnal mind.

God bless

[pneuma]

Pneuma made it clear he doesn't care what others think only what he thinks

Craig you know very well you are taking that out of context, low blow bro.

Who said they were imaginations? Once again, both Molly and yourself always ASSUME what you do not know and debase it down to it's lowest denominator.

It get's even deeper, you imagine demons, they appear and their life appears beyond your influence and can affect others

Both quotes are yours Craig so if I misread you it is because of the words you use.

Satan (the serpent of old, the devil), is a spirit created by a part of man

This would imply that man is the FATHER of DEVILS, yet Jesus reversed the order and said ye are of YOUR FATHER the DEVIL.

which justifies rebels against God's Law through lies, strongholds, arguments, pretensions, thoughts, principalities and powers of the mind which is not found in the truth and never part of the truth since they deny the knowledge of the Truth 

These lies, arguments, strongholds, pretensions, thoughts, principalities and powers are an adversary to God, and our enemy which tempts us away from Him

And yet these principalities and powers are said to be RECONCILED by the blood of JESUS.

Spirits are not beings,

You keep saying this, but God is a spirit, thus you are saying God is not a being.

Craig if spirits are man made or to use your words created by a part of man, and God is a spirit you are saying God is a creation of man.

That is simple logic bro, and for someone who I know is very logical not to see this logic is illogical.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Jb 1:12 Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand, but you must not put forth your hand upon himself. Then Satan went forth from Yahweh's presence.


Jb 1:19 when behold, a great wind came from across the wilderness, and it assaulted against the four corners of the house. It fell upon the lads, and they died, yet I escaped, but I myself alone, to tell it to you.




I want to be clear on peoples thoughts on Satan without trying to interject my own beliefs in argument to that.  

What has not been made clear from those who dwell mainly on the mind aspect of Satan,  is how that relates to the story of Job.   Jobs life was affected outside of his own mind concerning other people as a result of the permission God gave Satan over Jobs life.

Clearly Job did not sin during this trial , nor did he fall prey to unbelief, nor did he curse God.   These attributes seem to be what some are saying would manifest Satan, or the adversary,  yet, this story shows the attempt to make Job fail in his faith by Satan, without the aid of those things from Job.

How does this story tie in with satan in the view of the mind only.

[pneuma]

Phew, this is hard to explain/answer for me.
In short God did create sin.

Not according to scripture bro for sin is of the devil.

And the devil is a part of God creation.

Yes but was he always as he is now? If he is to be reconciled to me indicates that he is different then he once was.

Explanation:
God created everything.
That includes the corrupt human brain.

There is NOTHING wrong with the human brain, the mind only becomes corrupt upon listening to the voice of satan. But if you see satan as being nothing more then the imaginations of mans mind I guess there would be no difference to you.

So the ability to even think of the sad things like wars and torture mankind has done is a sign of a perfect brain.

The Hitler's of this world are not led by the mind of man, Jesus said ye are of your father the DEVIL and so do his works (paraphrased)

Jesus had a perfect brain that could resist all tempations.

Jesus brain was no different then ours and the reason He resisted all temptation was because He always did the will of the Father. We to are to have the mind of Jesus, that does not mean we have a different brain now and get Jesus brain later it just means that our brain is to be focused on the exact same things Jesus brain was focused on, which is the perfect will of the Father.

I admit I have no clear picture how I see Satan but certainly not imaginary.

:thumbsup:

God is very well knew, even before creation, that mankind would sin.

I agree, but having foreknowledge of an event and being responsible for the event are two different animals.

I disagree with that. Place a Jew in a cellblock with 100 skinheads. And then act suprised if the Jew gets an 'accident'.
The warden did knew the skinheads had the ability to hate and kill the Jew but just took the 0.000000001% change the Jew would become close friends with the skinheads.

The skinheads also had a free choice.... The outcome of that was very predictable.
My point is if the chance that someone lives up to your (=God) standards is very close to zero. The Bible even states all men are sinners. God knew that verse/fact before he started creation. He has given mankind a (limited) free will as you said. I agree with that. But God knew even before He started creation free will always choses the wrong path.
If we are talking about cars it would be called a design flaw.
But if we talk about Gods creation it suddenly is free will?
I want to add I do not believe our sinful nature is a design flaw. Gods design works 100% as He designed it to work.
For me it means He for some purpose, that we humans perhaps don't understand, created sin.

That's how I view it

Ya a lot of people see it from your view brother, but that to me implies that the skinheads cannot make a choice for themselves whether to kill the Jew or not.

Note on responsibility: I used a wrong word here WW I should have used cause and said having foreknowledge of an event and being the cause of the event are two different animals.

The reason I am making this distinction is because God does take responsibility for the actions of men, He does not cause man to sin, but take the responsibility upon Himself for man sinning. For if He never placed the tree before man and told him not to eat, man never would have transgressed the commandment.
Thus God is responsible for putting the tree in man path, but God did not make man eat from that tree, that was man choice then and still is today.

Hope that helps clear my thoughts up a little.

[rosered]

What Rose brought out on the man in the tomb was very good and I can agree with it, but that is one layer, but I would ask why he cut himself, was it because of the law which is ordained unto life, or because satan used the law to deceive and bring condemnation?

Thus you have the milk and the meat working together for a clearer imo understanding of what transpires in and around men.

  Hi Pneuma,
   Yes ! what influence  does satan / adversary have  on mortal man ?
and what would cause the  wild man to  cut himself on stones
 to me it was  ouside influence , namely  the  hell fire church i was attending at the time  , they desired to glory in the flesh  [lusts there of ]  and abusing a power /authority  over the vunerable  [unlearned and innocent ] a type of bondage

 I think of Ishmael  being that wild man  whos hand is against his bretheren ALL BY VIOLENCE   the kingdom come by violence till Jesus /Spirit of Gods love and mercy  towards us   appeared     , comparing the two  Gal 4

 I will use Judas  as an example also  when satan entered his heart  
 that influence  was to  steal and do injustice by stealing  , Judas  a thief   desired money more than doing what was right [betrayal ],  having to make a choice  greedy gain  was the reward  of iniquity , it was not his to have /take  and  Judas  was tormented by his choice

 there is  another  word i  want to use  it is covet  
Paul touches alot on coveting  , even within himself  and that lust or desire to have [power, riches ,authority, influence,  etc] usually BY VIOLENCE a prideful state of being   I did a huge study on coveting  and  what was in the scriptures  
and  there was a huge blessing in it


Book of  James also  speaks  of the lusts being the  weakness in man that

tempts  the flesh
putting the soul  in jeopardy and misery   thats what I saw in Judas  
and the man in the  tombs [dead inside] till Jesus comes to restore
 the  body , soul and spirit  of us , it is a 3 part work  
and the scripptures speaks of a  1/3  and  3 parts many times  , to many times for me to ignore  them
God bless you bro .. rose