The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Molly]

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Those "angels" refers to Israel and the fallen prophets of God who chosen by God were still just human.

And you know this...how?

[Molly]

What stops anything from rebelling against God again?

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

You don't understand, you have no hope. Jesus said a Kingdom divided against itself shall not stand. If the Kingdom of God was divided, then the God you worship is no God of mine.

If the kingdom is not divided, why does anything have to be reconciled?

1 a : to restore to friendship or harmony <reconciled the factions> b : SETTLE , RESOLVE <reconcile differences>

[Craig]

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Those "angels" refers to Israel and the fallen prophets of God who chosen by God were still just human.

And you know this...how?

By Scripture. Once you recognize the words of Jesus stating that no Celestial angel has ever sinned, nor given into marriage (that is have sexual relationships) and not rebelled from the Kingdom of God. The only answer is mankind is the only chosen of God who can rebel because they are rebelling against something they do not know and have been on the outside. There is only one who has ever descended from Heaven, and that is Jesus Christ so that He could bring us up with Him. Therefore, instead of speculation and listening to the bs of religion and vain imaginations of men fearful to look upon what is truth, read what Scripture says in it's entirety.

The whole 'angelic army' that we told to imagine does not exist. Neither does the 'fallen angelic army'. It is very simple and not convoluded.

[Craig]

1 a : to restore to friendship or harmony <reconciled the factions> b : SETTLE , RESOLVE <reconcile differences>

I know your line of reasoning and it is the slippery slope. First mankind was not created in the Garden, he was created outside and brought into it. Second, only mankind can rebel and be reconciled back to God.

[WhiteWings]

How does that prevent another rebellion in heaven?

The rod is what the shepherd used to beat off the evil predators of the sheep--the bear and the wolf.

So according to your view there is sin/evil in heaven?
If everything is in harmony no shepard is needed. And certainly no rod to beat enemies/sinners that don't exist.

[WhiteWings]

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Jesus reigns, that does not answer your assertion that "our ability to judge" is prevention of a future rebellion.

What says that once all the enemies are put under Jesus feet and he reigns no more, that another rebellion can't take place since Jesus is no longer reigning.

Paul,
I think this depends on what 'under his feet' exactly means.
If the enemies are submitted forcefully they will rebel as soon as the 'foot is taken away'
But perhaps the enemies submitted themselfs because they concluded for themselfs that they where wrong in the past and now follow the wishes of Father and Son.

[WhiteWings]

Now as the HEAVENS needed to be purified by His blood for me it goes without saying that somehow those in the heavens has corrupted themselves.

I'm not against that line of reasoning, but I think the fact that "heavens"  plural is being spoken of that is a missing factor in this discussion.

To just say. angels fell from heaven is not taking the plural nature of that depiction into account.

No but perhaps that's only so because we don't know what angel look like?
Nowadays a drawing of an angel is a human with feathered wings.
But much older drawings show an angel as flying dragon. During flight they are long stretched and look like a flying snake.
Then the mentioned heaven is simply 'our sky'
Their wings got clipped to 'eat dust'...

[WhiteWings]

   2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up to the third heaven.

3772 ouvrano,j ouranos {oo-ran-os'}
Meaning:  1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it 1a) the universe, the world 1b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced 1c) the sidereal or starry heavens 2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

Heaven #1: The planet we are standing on
Heaven #2: Just above us
Heaven #3: Place of the clouds
Heaven #4: Place of the starts
Heaven #5: Above/beyond the stars.

[pneuma]

It still doesn't prevent God from having Created us as the extensions of His very own nature, through Christ, to balance the Creation and keep everything conciliated.  Salvation involves judgment and revealing.  Aren't we the more free to grow into God in all things knowing that Christ is our net that keeps us from dying in this circus that we call life?  What if there is a direction of growth that God wants the angels to grow in that though not necessarily involving sonship is still something they can't fully participate in without knowing that He'll crush every rebellion and restore what's been crushed; a bruised reed He won't break and smoking flax He won't quench til He sends forth judgment to victory.  We're the bruised reeds without a doubt, but what's the smoking flax?

We were not created in the Kingdom of God, but the so-called "Fallen" Angels were. You need better wisdom than what you provided, to support your claim. Otherwise it is a justification of something that has no reasoning only speculation. Jesus was clear when he said a Kingdom divided shall not stand, therefore anything that was of God's Kingdom will not be divided.

Yes Jesus was clear when He said a kingdom divided shall not stand, but Craig Jesus cast satan out which clearly shows satan is NOT of Gods kingdom.

[Molly]

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Those "angels" refers to Israel and the fallen prophets of God who chosen by God were still just human.

And you know this...how?

By Scripture. Once you recognize the words of Jesus stating that no Celestial angel has ever sinned, nor given into marriage (that is have sexual relationships) and not rebelled from the Kingdom of God. The only answer is mankind is the only chosen of God who can rebel because they are rebelling against something they do not know and have been on the outside. There is only one who has ever descended from Heaven, and that is Jesus Christ so that He could bring us up with Him. Therefore, instead of speculation and listening to the bs of religion and vain imaginations of men fearful to look upon what is truth, read what Scripture says in it's entirety.

The whole 'angelic army' that we told to imagine does not exist. Neither does the 'fallen angelic army'. It is very simple and not convoluded.

I'm asking you, when we are told that we will judge "angels," how do you know that refers to "Israel and the fallen prophets of God who chosen by God were still just human."   Is there scripture that supports that?

If so, why would he call Old Testament Israel "angels"?  Why not just be clear if this statement is not referring to celestial angels?

Also, where does Jesus say "no celestial angel has ever sinned"? 

[Paul Hazelwood]

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Jesus reigns, that does not answer your assertion that "our ability to judge" is prevention of a future rebellion.

What says that once all the enemies are put under Jesus feet and he reigns no more, that another rebellion can't take place since Jesus is no longer reigning.

Paul,
I think this depends on what 'under his feet' exactly means.
If the enemies are submitted forcefully they will rebel as soon as the 'foot is taken away'
But perhaps the enemies submitted themselfs because they concluded for themselfs that they where wrong in the past and now follow the wishes of Father and Son.

Well, one of the factors of the story of fallen angels has to do with free will as your pointing out.  
If we have free will to rebell against God while being one with him in the first place, then what says we will not have free will to devise another scheme that we will think will work "this time"?    

[Paul Hazelwood]

Now as the HEAVENS needed to be purified by His blood for me it goes without saying that somehow those in the heavens has corrupted themselves.

I'm not against that line of reasoning, but I think the fact that "heavens"  plural is being spoken of that is a missing factor in this discussion.

To just say. angels fell from heaven is not taking the plural nature of that depiction into account.

No but perhaps that's only so because we don't know what angel look like?
Nowadays a drawing of an angel is a human with feathered wings.
But much older drawings show an angel as flying dragon. During flight they are long stretched and look like a flying snake.
Then the mentioned heaven is simply 'our sky'
Their wings got clipped to 'eat dust'...

What they look like I am not sure is at issue.  It is whether scripture provides the description of beings that were one with God, then rebelled against him. 


The point of creation is  "created the heavens and the earth"   So first off, if an angel "fell from heaven"  was that a choice to be removed from being one with God, or was it a creature in a created realm that sinned?   And  was it actually Gods "messengers" or was it the created beings that were created that way to begin with?

Satan was created the adversary,  there is little support to say he was created a messenger, one with God, then he rebelled and became a murderer.   Satan and his messengers were created that way to begin with for a purpose.

The serpent was created crafty and subtle to begin with.   Adam and Eve were created with that nature or they could not have disobeyed "before" knowing Good and Evil.

Creation started out corrupt as we see it.   In reality,  creation started out PERFECT for the reason God made it the way he did.

It did not start out "one" with God, then on its own became corrupt.

Romans says creation was subject to vanity unwillingly,  so there is nothing concerning choice there.

[WhiteWings]

Yes Jesus was clear when He said a kingdom divided shall not stand, but Craig Jesus cast satan out which clearly shows satan is NOT of Gods kingdom.

Or not anymore....
Perhaps was Gods kingdom divided and God fixed that by kicking out the opposition...

[Paul Hazelwood]

Because if there "was" angels who can bask directly into the face of God and they rebelled,  then this whole idea that God needed to do anything to prevent it from happening again creates a paradox.   

If God could not have prevented it in the first place, then there is no hope whatsoever that even Jesus trampling things under his feet will conclusively prevent it from happening again.

There is no assurance of such a thing, if angels fell while basking directly in the face of God.

Unless what Jesus did alters and completes the Creation THAT MUCH....Unless it was the one missing revelation that they were needing to stay at peace and obedience to Him.

Jesus does change creation that much, the issue is if creation was one with God, then chose not to be hence "fallen angels".

What does romans say?  "to vanity was the creation subject to unwillingly"

What does Genesis say?  "God created the heavens and the earth"    

Where is God?   God is not in a place,  he is.....   So being with God in heaven is not the same as being one with God,  "ALL in ALL"


We are with God now, but we are not one with him.

[WhiteWings]

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Jesus reigns, that does not answer your assertion that "our ability to judge" is prevention of a future rebellion.

What says that once all the enemies are put under Jesus feet and he reigns no more, that another rebellion can't take place since Jesus is no longer reigning.

Paul,
I think this depends on what 'under his feet' exactly means.
If the enemies are submitted forcefully they will rebel as soon as the 'foot is taken away'
But perhaps the enemies submitted themselfs because they concluded for themselfs that they where wrong in the past and now follow the wishes of Father and Son.

Well, one of the factors of the story of fallen angels has to do with free will as your pointing out.  
If we have free will to rebell against God while being one with him in the first place, then what says we will not have free will to devise another scheme that we will think will work "this time"?    

Nothing says that.
But nothing says the contrary either.
The fallen angels had free will. They abused it and got kicked out. They get thousands of years to enjoy their free will and living by their own standards. Maybe in the end they conclude God was right from the start and His methods are the best.
Just my personal opinion; I don't think people in heaven will be forcefully submitted. Perhaps for a short while but after that no force whatsoever is needed. Neither are people brainwashed to follow God.
If that was the way He wants things He just could have created 10 biljon people according to His standards, skip the whole Bible and place them directly in eternal life in Heaven.
So my believe is that thinking people live withoutsin and force in Heaven.

[Paul Hazelwood]

1 a : to restore to friendship or harmony <reconciled the factions> b : SETTLE , RESOLVE <reconcile differences>

The structure of word and root and context does not limit the word reconcile (God being all in all) to a restoration of what once was.


"to win over to friendliness; cause to become amicable" 

[WhiteWings]

Now as the HEAVENS needed to be purified by His blood for me it goes without saying that somehow those in the heavens has corrupted themselves.

I'm not against that line of reasoning, but I think the fact that "heavens"  plural is being spoken of that is a missing factor in this discussion.

To just say. angels fell from heaven is not taking the plural nature of that depiction into account.

No but perhaps that's only so because we don't know what angel look like?
Nowadays a drawing of an angel is a human with feathered wings.
But much older drawings show an angel as flying dragon. During flight they are long stretched and look like a flying snake.
Then the mentioned heaven is simply 'our sky'
Their wings got clipped to 'eat dust'...

What they look like I am not sure is at issue.  It is whether scripture provides the description of beings that were one with God, then rebelled against him. 

And I'm not sure it's not an issue :-)
Just as an example:
Suppose science can prove there where once flying dragons and they lost their ability to fly. Just like the snake in Genesis that got cursed.
Then fell from heaven means "Fell from the sky just like when you shoot a flying bird."
Meaning they where not in the Heaven with God but just in 'our' air.

[Paul Hazelwood]

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Jesus reigns, that does not answer your assertion that "our ability to judge" is prevention of a future rebellion.

What says that once all the enemies are put under Jesus feet and he reigns no more, that another rebellion can't take place since Jesus is no longer reigning.

Paul,
I think this depends on what 'under his feet' exactly means.
If the enemies are submitted forcefully they will rebel as soon as the 'foot is taken away'
But perhaps the enemies submitted themselfs because they concluded for themselfs that they where wrong in the past and now follow the wishes of Father and Son.

Well, one of the factors of the story of fallen angels has to do with free will as your pointing out.  
If we have free will to rebell against God while being one with him in the first place, then what says we will not have free will to devise another scheme that we will think will work "this time"?    

Nothing says that.
But nothing says the contrary either.
The fallen angels had free will. They abused it and got kicked out. They get thousands of years to enjoy their free will and living by their own standards. Maybe in the end they conclude God was right from the start and His methods are the best.
Just my personal opinion; I don't think people in heaven will be forcefully submitted. Perhaps for a short while but after that no force whatsoever is needed. Neither are people brainwashed to follow God.
If that was the way He wasnts things He just could have created 10 biljon people according to His standards, skip the whole Bible and place them directly in eternal life in Heaven.
So my believe is that thinking people live withoutsin and force in Heaven.

Thats my point,   the hope depicted in the bible lends to the fact that we do not have to be concerned with corruption when we are "ALL in ALL".   This story thats being discussed, if true, contradicts that hope.  

Because being in heaven (which one again?) with God is not equal to being  one with him in paradise.   It is this being one with him in paradise that the story says the angels fell from.

Free will is free will in the context of the story.  If there was free will to break being one with God,  then there is free will that it will happen again.

[pneuma]

What they look like I am not sure is at issue.  It is whether scripture provides the description of beings that were one with God, then rebelled against him.  

Paul were are you getting the idea that the angels that fell were ONE WITH GOD?

The point of creation is  "created the heavens and the earth"   So first off, if an angel "fell from heaven"  was that a choice to be removed from being one with God, or was it a creature in a created realm that sinned?   And  was it actually Gods "messengers" or was it the created beings that were created that way to begin with?

Satan was created the adversary,  there is little support to say he was created a messenger, one with God, then he rebelled and became a murderer.   Satan and his messengers were created that way to begin with for a purpose.

Yes satan was a liar and murderer from the BEGINING Paul, but what was he BEFORE the Begining when the sons of God shouted for joy at the formation of the world.

The serpent was created crafty and subtle to begin with.   Adam and Eve were created with that nature or they could not have disobeyed "before" knowing Good and Evil.

Agreed

Romans says creation was subject to vanity unwillingly,  so there is nothing concerning choice there.

You know Paul I always read that scripture the same way you are doing here, but I am not so sure that reading is correct.

Question: who is the word unwillingly in referance to? is it in reference to the creation or to God?

if the creation then it would be a correct reading but if God, then it changes the whole meaning of the scripture and it would then say God subjected the creation to vanity NOT WILLINGLY.

Which to me seem to be more in line with His nature, God does not willingly chastise His children but chastise them He will because of DISOBEDIENCE.

Also bro if it is in relation to creation do we then not have waring scriptures? for do not scriptures proclaim because of one MANS disobedience the world is now in a state of vainity.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Now as the HEAVENS needed to be purified by His blood for me it goes without saying that somehow those in the heavens has corrupted themselves.

I'm not against that line of reasoning, but I think the fact that "heavens"  plural is being spoken of that is a missing factor in this discussion.

To just say. angels fell from heaven is not taking the plural nature of that depiction into account.

No but perhaps that's only so because we don't know what angel look like?
Nowadays a drawing of an angel is a human with feathered wings.
But much older drawings show an angel as flying dragon. During flight they are long stretched and look like a flying snake.
Then the mentioned heaven is simply 'our sky'
Their wings got clipped to 'eat dust'...

What they look like I am not sure is at issue.  It is whether scripture provides the description of beings that were one with God, then rebelled against him. 

And I'm not sure it's not an issue :-)
Just as an example:
Suppose science can prove there where once flying dragons and they lost their ability to fly. Just like the snake in Genesis that got cursed.
Then fell from heaven means "Fell from the sky just like when you shoot a flying bird."
Meaning they where not in the Heaven with God but just in 'our' air.

Thats always a possibility I suppose,  I have no problems with the depiction of "falling"  as the bible says we do all fall short of his glory.  

The problem is that the story depicts this falling as a free will choice to become imperfect as we view perfection.  I do not believe there is a very solid scriptural picture of that.

Rather to me,  God created a realm of existance that is his spirit, but separated from his ultimate glory and placing us on this journey to be prepared to be one with him and aware of it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

What they look like I am not sure is at issue.  It is whether scripture provides the description of beings that were one with God, then rebelled against him.  

Paul were are you getting the idea that the angels that fell were ONE WITH GOD?

Thats what the story that is being depicted implies.   It is in reference to a singular heaven, the same heaven that is said we go to where there is no sadness, etc etc.  So if it is this "heaven" we are to be at when God is all in all, then the story implies this same place is where it all started.

Yes satan was a liar and murderer from the BEGINING Paul, but what was he BEFORE the Begining when the sons of God shouted for joy at the formation of the world.

Perhaps whatever Satan can be shown to be was not created yet.

You know Paul I always read that scripture the same way you are doing here, but I am not so sure that reading is correct.

Question: who is the word unwillingly in referance to? is it in reference to the creation or to God?

Well here is the structure of the greek.

"to the" "for" "Vanity" "the creation" "was under set" "not" "voluntarily" "but" "thru" "the" "one under setting" "on" "expectation"


I can't see it any other way.

[Molly]

The problem is that the story depicts this falling as a free will choice to become imperfect as we view perfection.  I do not believe there is a very solid scriptural picture of that.

It's more a rebellion against God which results in a fall.


.....ye shall be as gods,...



13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

--Isa 14




1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

--Rev 20

[Paul Hazelwood]

The problem is that the story depicts this falling as a free will choice to become imperfect as we view perfection.  I do not believe there is a very solid scriptural picture of that.

It's more a rebellion against God which results in a fall.

What is the root cause of the rebellion then?

[Molly]

The problem is that the story depicts this falling as a free will choice to become imperfect as we view perfection.  I do not believe there is a very solid scriptural picture of that.

It's more a rebellion against God which results in a fall.

What is the root cause of the rebellion then?

Perversion.  Pride.  Wickedness.  Desire for power.  Which spirits man can easily succumb to because it all sounds good at first.


12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

--Eph 6

[WhiteWings]

Thats my point

Sorry, then I misunderstood (and understand you)
:Peace: