The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Molly]

Yes, it's a deep subject.

What would you say of a priest of God who purposely leads the sheep astray?

A pastor who lies about Jesus?

A king who rules unjustly?

A prophet who lies?

[Paul Hazelwood]

He sinned, why did this happen if he was flawless and perfect as is often implied in the traditional explanations?

Because he was God's son, and he did what God would do himself if he saw his loved one dying--give himself to save her.

...the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

How are you using the word perfect here?

God is perfect?   God will sin then?

Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world.

--John 1:29

Therefor Adam was not created without the Serpent nature in the first place.   But created perfect for the very purpose of dying so that all could be made alive,  learning righteousness.  

Satan was created perfect for the very purpose that he is.  

I do not believe or agree that Adam had 'the serpent nature.'

Although I'm sure Satan would like to think so, so that he can accuse God by indicting his son.

Did Adam sin?   And if so how does that make him like God or Jesus?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yes, it's a deep subject.

What would you say of a priest of God who purposely leads the sheep astray?

A pastor who lies about Jesus?

A king who rules unjustly?

A prophet who lies?

Different issue,

God has the control, so are we ever truly led astray?    That sentiment in your quote can be said if there is the possibility that our choices can lead us to be eternally Damned?   Far as I can tell Molly, you do not believe that,  but there have been people post here where ultimatly that was revealed.

In Romans, you cannot deny what it says.   Subject to Vanity "not willingly".   Thats what God did.

But as long as a person emotionalizes it,  then it will appear evil.


But when the purpose is so that "the inhabitants of the earth LEARN righteousness" then everything changes.

[Molly]

Adam transgressed against a commandment of God--Don't eat from that tree.

He is like God in that he has God's nature--he is God's son--the image of the one who is to come.

God knows the motives of the heart.

Jesus is the unique Son of God, the second Adam, the last Adam.  He doesn't sin himself but takes on the sin of the world in order to redeem the world, just as Adam takes on Eve's sin in order to redeem her.

We see the first of the ritual sacrifice of the lamb happening outside the garden, as well, in the person of Able.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Adam transgressed against a commandment of God--Don't eat from that tree.

He is like God in that he has God's nature--he is God's son--the image of the one who is to come.

God knows the motives of the heart.

Jesus is the unique Son of God, the second Adam, the last Adam.  He doesn't sin himself but takes on the sin of the world in order to redeem the world, just as Adam takes on Eve's sin in order to redeem her.

We see the first of the ritual sacrifice of the lamb happening outside the garden, as well, in the person of Able.

I can see what your saying here, but it over looks a greater fundamental problem.
Adam shows his nature here opposite of what your trying to say.

Gn 3:12 And saying is the human,  "The woman whom You gave, withal, she gave to me from the tree and I am eating."


If Adam was making this sacrifice in righteousness, then  Adam would have no reason to try to blame God for giving him the woman in the first place,  therefor trying to get out of this predicament.


So Adam is showing the crafty nature of the serpent right here.   

[Molly]

You are quoting from something Adam says after he eats from the tree.

Now his eyes are opened and he is blind.

Now he hides from God.

But, even so, Jesus calls his son, Able, righteous.

[Paul Hazelwood]

You are quoting from something Adam says after he eats from the tree.

Now his eyes are opened and he is blind.

Now he hides from God.

First, it is plain that there is no solid scriptural support for angels falling from perfect communion with God to be at war with him.   The point in all of this is that Adam and Eve were created with the prupose of sinning and dying to manifest the process that God put in place.

The same goes for Satan and his messengers, created to do exactly what they do.

If we want to use the phrase "fell from heaven"   Which heaven?


Secondly, what your saying here further solidifies my point.    If Adam had done something out of a pure heart it would NOT have been a sin.

The fact that it was a sin, says otherwise.

But, even so, Jesus calls his son, Able, righteous.

And that does not mean without sin.   Did Able die?   What is the wages of Sin?

[laren]

this is a writing from a friend of mine,   Just another perspective. 


Rev 20:2
He laid hold of the dragon , that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan,

Here John ties several name as having the same meaning.


Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

We are taught that the serpent is smarter than the other beasts of the field. But that is not what is said it says that he has more knowledge and understanding that the beast of the field, not that he is one of them.


And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? {Yea...: Heb. Yea, because, etc.} 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, (?) lest ye die.


This was given to Adam not Eve so were did Eve and the serpent get this from?

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The serpent lied.

Here we can see Adam is right there with Eve and God had given him the command not to eat the fruit. Why didn't Adam step in and put a stop to this?

Why did Adam take the fruit from Eve?


7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. {aprons: or, things to gird about} 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Were is the serpent?


9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


Why would a supernatural spirit being eat?


15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, (why only two and not 3 ?) and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. {to thy...: or, subject to thy husband} 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; {bring...: Heb. cause to bud} 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.


Looks as though Adam and the seperent have dust in common.


20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. 21 Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" -- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


God put them out before they ate from the Tree of life therefore Adam's sin caused death to all of man.




Ezekiel 28:1 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying, 2 Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, So says the Lord Jehovah, Because your heart is lifted up, and you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, in the heart of the seas; yet you are a man, and not God, though you give your heart as the heart of gods. 3 Behold, you are wiser than Daniel. Every one of the secret things are not hidden to you. 4 With your wisdom and with your understanding you have made riches for yourself, and have worked gold and silver into your treasuries. 5 By your great wisdom, by your trade you have multiplied your riches, and your heart is lifted up because of your riches. 6 So the Lord Jehovah says this: Because you have given your heart as the heart of gods, 7 behold, so I will bring on you awesome strangers of the nations. And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and will defile your splendor. 8 They will cause you to go down to the Pit, and you shall die the deaths of the slain in the heart of the seas. 9 Saying, do you say, I am of the gods before him who strikes you? But you are a man, and not God, in the hands of him who pierces you. 10 You shall die the deaths of the uncircumcised, by the hand of strangers. For I have spoken, says the Lord Jehovah. 11 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying, 12 Son of man, lift up a lament over the king of Tyre, and say to him, So says the Lord Jehovah: You seal the measure, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were created, they were prepared. 14 You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.



Now this is interesting, The perfect anointed cherub that was in the garden of Eden with God that fell.

This can only be the serpent.

But don't it say that he is only a man?

Isn't the only man in Eden Adam?

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you. 16 By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire. 17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground.


Isn't that what happened to the serpent?

(Gen.3:14 upon thy belly shalt thou go)

I will put you before kings, that they may see you. 18 By the host of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trade, you have defiled your holy places. So I brought a fire from your midst and it shall devour you, and I will give you for ashes on the earth in the sight of all who see you. 19 All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at you. You shall be terrors, and you will not be forever. 20 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying, 21 Son of man, set your face against Sidon and prophesy against her, 22 and say, So says the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I am against you, O Sidon, and I will be glorified in your midst. And they shall know that I am Jehovah when I have done judgments in her and shall be sanctified by her. 23 And I will send a plague into her, and blood into her streets. And the slain will fall in her midst by the sword, on her from all around. And they shall know that I am Jehovah. 24 And there will not be a pricking brier or a painful thorn to the house of Israel any more from all who surround them, those who hate them. And they shall know that I am the Lord Jehovah. 25 So says the Lord Jehovah: When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are dispersed, and have been sanctified in them in the sight of the nations, then they shall dwell on their land which I have given to My servant Jacob. 26 And they shall dwell in it securely and shall build houses and plant vineyards. Yes, they shall dwell securely, when I have done judgments on all those who hate them round about them. And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God.



Isaiah 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob. 2 Then people will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them for servants and maids in the land of the LORD; they will take them captive whose captives they were, and rule over their oppressors. 3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: "How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased! 5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of the rulers; 6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, He who ruled the nations in anger, Is persecuted [and] no one hinders. 7 The whole earth is at rest [and] quiet; They break forth into singing. 8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, [And] the cedars of Lebanon, [Saying,] 'Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.' 9 "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet [you] at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. 10 They all shall speak and say to you: 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, [And] the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.' 12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. 16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, [And] consider you, [saying:] '[Is] this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,


Here again we are taught this is the fall of Satan. He was cut to the ground like the serpent but it also says that he is a man.

John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [does not] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources,] for he is a liar and the father of it.


Were did the devil kill anyone from the beginning?

It was Adam that brought death unto all from the beginning when he ate the fruit.

The serpent was the liar he told Eve that death wouldn't come if they ate the fruit.

Either Jesus is confused or Adam and the serpent are one and the same.


Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,

1 John 3:11-12For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain.


Cain was of Adam so John is saying Adam is the wicked one (devil).


Jer 9:11And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons

The Dragons here are wicked men.


Matt 3:4-7
Now John himself was clothed in camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,"Brood of vipers


Here John called men vipers.

Matt 23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers ! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Jesus calls men vipers here.

Satan is the "adversary" and Adam deliberately went against God.

1 Tim.2:14 And Adam was not deceived.

[laren]

and if interested, another perspective from another forum of a friend of mine.

"Hi guys, these are my thoughts in response to what Laren posed in the Mystery of Ages thread:

Laren said:


Quote:Here are two verses i've been pondering that i think might be related to this topic:

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

why wasnt' he deceived??

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

where does this "internal" knowledge come from??

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

notice the order here,

first knowledge and "knew God", then became vain in their imaginations

knew:

G1097
γινώσκω
ginōskō
ghin-oce'-ko
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know" (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.


casting out imaginations and every high thing.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God (where was this knowledge?? in their perceptions) into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


so it seems to me, the order is "know God", clearly see this, glorify him not, become vain in imaginations and then have FOOLISH heart darkened.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

again look at the order. know truth first, then turn it into a lie, then be turned over to their own lusts.

Adam was not decieved.



My friend writes:

These are great insights Laren! I wanted to add my "version" which I realize is limited at best, since the study of the mind is phenomenally huge.....but here's my lil ole attempt...

As you know my friend, I tend to see the scriptures more so as symbolic than anything else, and in fact my understanding is bordering on (dare I say) mystical....sooooo....just a disclaimer to all those who are easily offended or view scriptures more literally...

I will venture to say then, that on a parabolic level I see Eve as that part of our mind which contains the womb or birthing place of thought....an idea that begins to conceptualized...this takes place in the conscious mind (as I understand it scientifically)

I see Adam as that deeper part of our mind, the subconscious which is "the knowing"....

Now from what I understand, the subconscious does not rationalize...it takes what is given to it after it has been filtered through the conscious mind....it doesn't question what it is given...

".... she (the conscious mind) took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband (the subconscious mind) who was with her, and he ate. Gen 3:6

he doesn't question, Adam just takes what Eve gives her and eats...

Now, if then in a symbolic way we can see Eve as the conscious mind we can begin to see why it is that she was deceived, yet Adam was not...

the conscious mind takes in information according to the senses...it then formulates beliefs, ideas, thoughts according to those senses....the conscious mind is prone to allowing the physical world determine what is truth...

the subconscious mind, I believe, has a sense of being and knowing that is deeply connected to spirit...it (adam) is the witness to the conscious mind (eve)...it (adam) doesn't judge one way or the other, but experiences and co-operates along with the conscious mind (eve) according to what the conscious mind believes....

this is why I see that the serpent spoke specifically with Eve...she is the only one who is able to take in information according to the senses...she is the "filter" so to speak...

the serpent is said to be "subtle"....meaning shrewd, sensible, prudent

sensible means: Capable of being perceived by the senses

prudent means: Sagacious (of quick sense perceptions) in adapting means to ends; circumspect (to look about one's self) in action

this all has to do with the senses....by which we experience the outside world...

and isn't it the senses which beguile us?? isn't it the senses which tempt us? which trigger the lusts within our own flesh...

eg...you're on a diet but you smell that yummy pizza which tastes so good but which you don't need for nutrition because you just ate a healthy salad...your senses trick you into eating it...

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:14


what I am saying here is that the subconscious cannot be tempted or deceived because it simply takes in that which it is given...

there are many who believe that the subconscious has the faith of a child...it goes along with whatever you tell it....and therein lies the rub...tell it lies, it goes along with the lies and so man, who houses both the conscious and subconscious, experiences the consequences of whatever his conscious mind feeds to his subconscious....

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

(oh boy, if we could only get our conscious minds to shut up... )

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

(if we would stop allowing the physical sensual world to teach the conscious mind of truth we would not be feeding the subconscious mind with the forbidden fruit of duality....to be still and know that I God...to stop being a slave to our thoughts which have previously taken authority over us, we in Christ are to take authority over our thoughts...)

For Adam (the subconscious where the essence of being resides) was formed first,

then Eve (the conscious mind where thoughts are formed and through which ideas spring forth into the physical world);

and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy 2:11-15

this childbearing I believe to be the birth of thought in the womb of the conscious mind which manifests into expression...this is where we are to be "self-controlled" and thinking thoughts of faith, love and holiness...

the subconscious and conscious cannot be separated and one depends on the other just as in a true marraige...

so as any true husband should, adam (the subconscious) supports his wife (the conscious) in whatever she believes, and in fact does everything he can to fulfill her desires...whether they be productive or non-productive

so what I see is that, when the conscious mind begins to perceive the illusionary element to the physical world, and that what is going on in our minds is being projected outwards, we begin to take care of what we are birthing/thinking....if we can be saved through childbearing...we can be saved through changing our minds, (repenting) and through birthing Christed thoughts into the world rather than the thoughts seeded by the serpent (thoughts seeded by the sensual temptations of the physical world)....

interestingly "cherub" means imaginary thing and in fact there is some indication in the Hebrew traditions that it is connected to the serpent....could this then be connected to "vain imaginations"....if the cherubs are guarding eden, we could say our vain imaginations are guarding us from achieving that higher state of consciousness which is eden....

in my study of "image and likeness of God" months ago I saw that in one sense what we see when we look at ourselves is imaginary...a phantam, an illusion....only an "image" of Elohim...the essense of who we are lies not in what we can perceive with the senses, but is deeper....the essence of who we are lies in the subconscious...the witness, the knowing....and this cannot be deceived...it has known throughout the ages the truth, though hidden...and the experience of the conscious mind serves to lead man back to this deeper knowing that Laren pointed out...

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God (the subconscious part of our minds), they (the conscious part of our minds) glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

so as Laren showed the "knowing God" comes first...that's Adam, the subconscious....then the conscious mind is deceived by the senses, turns the truth of God into a lie...takes God who is within and perceives Him as without....and the subconscious supports this belief to the extent that man ACTS out in this way....

what if the conscious mind is personified as the "Lord"...and what if in conjunction to that, the subconscious contains the I AM essence...then wouldn't so many verses make more sense with regards to the Lord commanding deaths of woman and children, sending evil spirits, creating calamity....isn't it man, deceived of our essence, creating the chaos in the world through the thoughts we birth in our conscious mind???

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (in the conscious mind) do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7

but in the subconscious, there is no duality, no turning of shadow, no deception....everything is what it is....everything is witnessed and experienced...and somewhere along the way the woman (the conscious mind) gets tired of playing the harlot with the world, turns within to see her true husband who has been there all along unperceived by the veil between the subconscious and the conscious in the marriage chamber (man's head), merges and mates with him and begins to birth that which will save her....thoughts that have been taken captive to Christ....

hope that all made sense somehow....

just one of many levels of meaning I see in these scriptures,
peace and love,"

[Molly]

You are quoting from something Adam says after he eats from the tree.

Now his eyes are opened and he is blind.

Now he hides from God.

First, it is plain that there is no solid scriptural support for angels falling from perfect communion with God to be at war with him.   The point in all of this is that Adam and Eve were created with the prupose of sinning and dying to manifest the process that God put in place.

The same goes for Satan and his messengers, created to do exactly what they do.

If we want to use the phrase "fell from heaven"   Which heaven?


Secondly, what your saying here further solidifies my point.    If Adam had done something out of a pure heart it would NOT have been a sin.

The fact that it was a sin, says otherwise.

But, even so, Jesus calls his son, Able, righteous.

And that does not mean without sin.   Did Able die?   What is the wages of Sin?

First, it is plain that there is no solid scriptural support for angels falling from perfect communion with God to be at war with him.   The point in all of this is that Adam and Eve were created with the prupose of sinning and dying to manifest the process that God put in place.

well, we go back and forth on this free will thing, but now you are saying what the blinded Adam said, The woman you gave me handed me the fruit.  Does that mean none of them have any responsibility for their actions?  In that case, let's just throw out the ten commandments, because people are going to do what they were created to do anyways, good or bad--within God's purpose for them.  Is God just playing with a bunch of puppets on a string?

Yes there is an account of a war in heaven, and Jesus himself references seeing Satan fall from heaven.


7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

--Rev 12


Able dies, yet his blood still speaks to God.  But, Cain is banished from God's presence--because he unrepentedly won't do the right thing.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

How does a wonderful, perfect flawless being get deceived if it is perfect as we want to usually define it?

Adam wasn't deceived.

I will rephrase that if necessary.

Answer the question pertaining to EVE.

Eve did not have the Holy Spirit--the breath of God.

When GOD destroyed the world via the FLOOD, it says all that had the BREATH of LIFE... were destroyed... (Eve, btw had the breath of LIFE)

JESUS said:  I am the way, the truth and the, ...LIFE... 

Which means ALL that have LIFE, have JESUS within... whether He has been REVEALED to them, as IN them, or NOT...

JESUS is HOLY, therefore the BREATH which animates any creature to LIFE, ...is HIM... for HE is the LIFE within us... the portion which gives us LIFE is HIM...

John 1:9 ...the TRUE LIGHT which LIGHTETH ...EVERY MAN, that cometh INTO THE WORLD...

No mythical being named "satan" concluded [decided] us in SIN by supposedly tempting us...  for THAT decision is GOD'S:

Rom 11:32  For GOD CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF, that He might have mercy upon ALL...

Rom 14:23  ...whatsoever is NOT of FAITH [belief in the WORD] is SIN...

peacE...
willieH   :HeartThrob:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Adam said, The woman you gave me handed me the fruit.  Does that mean none of them have any responsibility for their actions? 

Yes we can go back and forth on free will  if you like, but it has nothing to do with this issue.  It has nothing to do with the purpose God intended.   

If God did not intend for us to sin, then why did he create us knowing full well the ramifications of all that he created?   

We are accountable for our actions,  and your again solidifying my point,  Adam's nature was sinful or he would not have sinned and he was held accountable for doing so.

You ignoring that your depiction makes Adam this saint that did what Jesus did to protect eve and then you say he did it for mankind.  Great, you believe that, but it contradicts scripture up down and sideways and it does that before we even start talking about free will.

In that case, let's just throw out the ten commandments, because people are going to do what they were created to do anyways, good or bad--within God's purpose for them.  Is God just playing with a bunch of puppets on a string?

Irrevalent to the topic at hand.

Yes there is an account of a war in heaven, and Jesus himself references seeing Satan fall from heaven.

Which heaven?  Theres more than one.  And is the heaven depicted the holiness of God or the carnal realm?    Thats the idea that willie often talks about when refering to tradition,  it is not that tradition is bad, it is the bias that it provides as we read.  I am not saying ALL, but I've been a member of 10 churches of various denominations and not a one of them ever, once talked about more than one heaven and how that can change the outlook of scripture.

So which one?

[Molly]

When GOD destroyed the world via the FLOOD, it says all that had the BREATH of LIFE... were destroyed... (Eve, btw had the breath of LIFE)

I am not disputing that Eve was breathing in and out as all living creatures breath.

I am saying that when God breathes into the nostrils of Adam, he gives him the breath of God (Holy Spirit).

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

--Gen 2


When Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead, he is talking about living breathing people who are walking around and, yet,  dead.

But, Adam, who is not deceived when he makes his decision to take the fruit from Eve's hand, is born from above.  That is what defines him as God's son.



5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

--John 3


[born] "again"

G509
ἄνωθεν
anōthen
an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

[willieH]

willieH:  :thumbdown:

More NON TOPICAL business from you:

When GOD destroyed the world via the FLOOD, it says all that had the BREATH of LIFE... were destroyed... (Eve, btw had the breath of LIFE)

I am not disputing that Eve was breathing in and out as all living creatures breath.

I am saying that when God breathes into the nostrils of Adam, he gives him the breath of God (Holy Spirit).

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

--Gen 2


When Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead, he is talking about living breathing people who are walking around and, yet,  dead.

But, Adam, who is not deceived when he makes his decision to take the fruit from Eve's hand, is born from above.  That is what defines him as God's son.



5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

--John 3


[born] "again"

G509
ἄνωθεν
anōthen
an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

In your own quotation above it is noted the BREATH of LIFE [CHRIST] was THAT which animated Adam...  :dontknow:  And it so animates to LIFE, ...ALL creatures which have it [the BREATH of LIFE]...

If you only could get past the SURFACE, you would find a world of understanding you have yet to encounter...  :sigh:

Get back to the TOPIC of this discussion Molly,  ...or are you in your stubborness, just UNABLE to do so?  :thumbdown:

When people ask you a question, do you ever answer it?  Or do you continue blabbing your own agenda in "response", as you have here, which is NOT an answer to the question?

Did HOLY ANGELS ever Fall... Molly?  :Whistle:

peacE...
willieH   :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Did HOLY ANGELS ever Fall... Molly? 

....and more!  lol


I'm the 'more.'

Men are ruled by spirits and angels are spirit beings.

Therefore, it's reasonable also to call men angels, which the Bible does, as well.

There are many spirits floating around, but only one that counts.

I don't think I'm off topic.  Yes, angels can fall, both the celestial type and the human type.



Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

[The0]

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

Please provide the rest of the "several proofs of this". If there are other proof texts, but "mainly because...", I think your other missing proof verses must be less convincing than the ones quoted below.

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

You are 'twisting the arms' of these verses to make them prove your belief. But even so, they do not prove it at all. It seems to me you are convinced that these verses, and the ones you have omitted, show beyond the shadow of a doubt that your position is correct.

It amazes me that you cannot see that these verses have nothing to do with what you are trying to show.

Also, have you ever witnessed the possession of an individual by an evil spirit? I think if you did, you might change your "opinion". What if you yourself were possessed by an evil spirit? what would you think then?

[WhiteWings]

Willieeeeeeeeeeeee! :hithere: :reachout:

Or do you continue blabbing your own agenda in "response"

I had to   :LH: :pointlaugh: :rolllol: :laughing7: a bit reading such a reply from you...

http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/angels.html

Preliminary considerations.
That there is an order of beings quite distinct from humanity and from the Godhead, who occupy an exalted state, is the teaching of much of Scripture.
They are referred to at least 108X in the Old Testament and 165X in the New Testament.
It is from this body of Scripture that we construct the Doctrine of Angels.
The designation "angel", whether %a'l.m; (mal-ak) of the Old Testament, or a;ggeloj (aggelos) of the New Testament, means "messenger".
The holy angels carry out the purpose of the One they serve.
The fallen angels are messengers of Satan whom they have chosen to serve.
Angels as created beings more closely resemble God in their make up than man. Angels combine the material with the immaterial.
Angels are thus designated "spirits".
These generally unseen creatures not only observe the activities of men, but the good angels minister to man (Heb.1:14).
The evil angels wage war against man (Eph.6:12).

The creation of angels.
The Son of God, the Father's agent in creation, created the angels (Col.1:16,17; Neh.9:6; Ps.148:2,5).
All angels were created simultaneously in eternity past.
None will be added to their number.
They do not procreate and are not subject to death (Mt.22:28-30).
The angels were created before the universe. They were worshipping spectators when the world was founded (Job.38:4-7).
As to the number of the angels, it is unstated, but it is a multitude (Heb.12:22; 1Kgs.22:19; Ps.68:17; Dan.7:10; Rev.5:11).

The nature of angels.
They are incorporeal beings (i.e., having no material body; Ps.104:4 "He makes the winds His messengers"; Eph.6:12).
However, they can reveal themselves in bodily form (Gen.18-219; Mt.1:20; Jn.20:12; Heb.13:2).
They are greater than man in knowledge, but are not omniscient (2Sam.14:20; Mt.24:36; 1Pet.1:12).
They are stronger than man, but are not omnipotent (Ps.103:20; 2Pet.2:11; 2Thess.1:7).
Angels possess volition, as seen in the fall of Satan.


The fall of angels.
The fact of their fall.
Angels were all created perfect and sinless, as the case with Satan makes apparent (Ezek.28:15).
Satan's fall is described in Ezek.28:15-17 (cp. Isa.14:12).
Satan took with him one-third of all angels (Rev.12:4).
Scripture represents some of the angels as evil (Mt.25:41).
The time of their fall was before man's creation and sometime after original creation. Gen.1:2 speaks of the pre-restoration chaos of planet earth, and Gen.3 speaks of man's temptation and fall under Satan.
The cause of their fall.
Angels, being created perfect but with volition, individually chose to follow Satan's lead and revolt against God (Ezek.28:15-17; Rev.12:4).
God is not the cause of their fall, as that would make Him the author of evil in the universe (Jam.1:13; 1Jn.1:5).
God created the angels with volition knowing some would fall and bring evil into the universe, but God is not responsible for their sin (note the five "I will's" of Satan in Isa.14:13,14).
The result of their fall.
They lost their original holiness and became corrupt in nature and conduct (Mt.10:1; Eph.6:11,12).
They were sentenced to hell but were not immediately sent there (Mt.25:41; cp. Rev.20:10).
They were left free to engage in opposition to:
God (Isa.14:12-14).
The work of the good angels (Dan.10:12,13,20,21; Jd.9).
The people of God (1Chr.21:1; 1Pet.5:8; Eph.6:11; 2Tim.2:26).
The nations (Isa.14:12).
The unbeliever (Lk.8:12; 2Cor.4:3,4).
Satan, through the serpent in Eden, caused Adam's fall and has the power over death to mankind (Gen.3; Heb.2:14; 1Jn.3:8).
Satan and his angels continue to have an audience in heaven, during which they malign believers (Zech.3:1; Lk.22:31; Rev.12:10). Satan insinuated that God hired men like Job to love Him by making them rich (Job.1:6-12).
In the Tribulation they will be cast to the earth (Rev.12:8,9). Following their judgment by believers (1Cor.6:3), they will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev.20:10).

Classification of the angels.
The good angels, called "elect" and "holy", are classified as (1Tim.5:21; Mk.8:38):
Angels, of which there are gradations, as indicated by Col.1:16.
Cherubim (meaning uncertain), which are angels chosen by God to guard and cover as seen in:
Lucifer's pre-fall ministry as the cherub that covers (Ezek.28:14).
The two cherubs sent to guard the entrance to Eden (Gen.3:24).
The two cherubs on the top of the Ark of the Covenant in the tabernacle and temple, symbolizing support for God's throne.
Seraphim, mentioned by name only in Isa.6:2,6 and stand above God and lead heaven in the worship of God.
The "living creatures" of Rev.4 and 5 share aspects of both the cherubim of Ezek.1,10 and the seraphim of Isa.6.
The evil angels are called "unclean" (Rev.16:13) and "evil" (Lk.8:2), and are classified as:
The angels who are kept in prison for their role in the Gen.6 infiltration, mentioned in 2Pet.2:4 and Jd.6, and are the same as those released to torment men in the Tribulation for five months (Rev.9:1-11).
The angels who remain free, usually mentioned in connection with Satan (Mt.25:41; Rev.12:7-9; cp. Rom.8:38).
The demons, a term used to describe all fallen angels (including Satan) and means a "lesser god" (Mt.12:24-28; 17:18; 1Cor.10:20,21; 1Tim.4:1; Jam.2:19; Rev.9:20; 18:2; Mk.1:32).
Having different ranks and functions under Satan (Eph.6:12).
Some individually named angels include:
Lucifer, son of the morning (pre-fall title), known as:
Satan (adversary; 1Chr.21:1; Job.1:6; 2:1; Ps.109:6; Zech.3:1,2; Mt.4:10, et al.).
The devil (slanderer or accuser; Mt.4:1).
Serpent (which implies his guile; Rev.12:9).
Dragon (which implies his power).
Apollyon (meaning "destroyer"; Rev.9:11).
The prince of this world.
The prince of the power of the air.
The god of this world.
Beelzebub (which implies that he is prince of the demons; Mt.12:24).
the evil one (Jn.17:15; 2.Thess.3:3; 1Jn.5:19).
the tempter (1Thess.3:5).
Michael (meaning "who is like God?") is given the title archangel (Jd.9), and is seen as Israel's protector (Dan.10:11,21). He disputed with Satan over Moses' body and, with his angels, engages Satan and his angels midway through the Tribulation in a great "star wars", forcing Satan out of the heavens (Rev.12:7-12).
Gabriel (meaning "the mighty one") is always seen in the Bible as a messenger or revealer of God's purposes, as to Daniel (Dan.8:15-27; cp. 9:20-27) and to Zacharias and to the virgin Mary (Lk.1:26-3).

Some other occurrences.
Angels of judgment (Gen.19:13; 2Sam.24:16; 2Kgs.19:35; Ps.78:49; Act.12:23).
Watchers (Dan.4:13,23).
Angel over fire (Rev.14:18).
Angel over waters (Rev.16:5).
Seven angels of the apocalypse (Rev.8:2).
Sons of the Most High (Ps.82:6); sons of God (in the OT only; Gen.6:24; Job.1:6; 38:7.
Gods (elohim; Ps.82:1 rulers; Ps.82:6 gods; Heb.2:7 elect angels).

The ministry of the elect angels.
They continually, night and day, offer praise and worship God in heaven (Isa.6:3; Ps.148:1,2; Rev.4:8; 5:11).
They protect and deliver God's people (Heb.1:14; Dan.6:22; Ps.91:11; Gen.19:11; Act.12:11; Mt.18:10).
They guide and encourage believers (Mt.28:5-7; Act.8:26; 27:23,24).
They interpret God's Word to men (no longer an issue with the closing of the canon; Dan.7:16; 10:5,11; Zech.1:9,19; 4:1,5; 5:5-11; 6:4,5; the teaching angel of Revelation, Rev.1:1; 17:7; 22:16).
Angels mediated the Law to Moses (Act.7:53; Gal.3:19).
Angels carry the saved home when they die (Lk.16:22).
They execute judgment on individuals and societies (Act.12:23; Gen.19:12,13; Ezek.9:1,5,7; note the active role they play in the judgments of the Tribulation, Rev.16).
Angels were active in the life and ministry of Jesus.
Angels informed Mary, Joseph, and the shepherds of Christ's birth (Lk.1:26-38; Mt.1:20: Lk.2:8-15).
Angels ministered to Christ after His temptation (Mt.4:11).
An angel strengthened Him in Gethsemane (Lk.22:43).
Angels were poised to deliver Him from His enemies (Mt.26:53).
An angel rolled the stone from the empty tomb (Mt.28:2-7).
Angels ascended with Him into heaven (Act.1:11).
Angels as spectators.
They rejoice when even one sinner is saved (Lk.15:10).
They actually learn Bible Doctrine from the local church, taking a keen interest in our assembly (Eph.3:10; 1Pet.1:12).
They observe all the affairs of men, and are pleased or offended, as the passage on hair suggests (1Cor.11:10).
They took great interest in the incarnation (1Tim.3:16).
Angels have future ministries.
They will make important announcements during the Tribulation (Rev.14:6-11; 18:2,21).
They will protect (seal) God's servants and carry out the prescribed judgments of that time (Rev.7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1,2,13; 12:7-9; 14:14-16; 15:1;16).
They will be associated with the Second Advent (Mt.13:37-39,49,50; 2Thess.1:7; Heb.1:6; Dan.7:9,10).
They will stand before the gates of the New Jerusalem as a kind of honorary body of sentinels, as if to guarantee that nothing that is unclean will ever enter that city (Rev.21:12).

The relationship of men and angels.
Angels were created superior to man in both position and inherent qualities (Ps.8:4,5; Heb.2:6,7).
Christ was made lower than angels for a little while by assuming a human form so as to redeem fallen man (Heb.2:5-13).
The very fact that He did not partake of the nature of angels (becoming a "God-Angel"), but did partake of human nature (becoming God-Man), has led the author of Hebrews to conclude that salvation was not provided for fallen angels, but only for man (Heb.2:15-18). Put another way, if He had to partake of humanity to be a high priest to man, would He not have had to partake of angelic nature to do likewise for angels?
Furthermore, we are not to worship angels (Col.2:18; Rev.22:8,9), but to view them as our servants (Heb.1:14).
Our final position will constitute us superior to angels in every way, for as He is so shall we be (Heb.1,2; Phil.3:21). At present, we are positionally superior to angels, being His Body and Bride.
Ps.103:20 "Bless the Lord, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word!"
Ps.104:4 "He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers."

Heb.1:6 "And when He again brings the first born into the world, He says, 'and let all the Angels of God worship Him.'"

Heb.1:14 "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?"

[laren]

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

Please provide the rest of the "several proofs of this". If there are other proof texts, but "mainly because...", I think your other missing proof verses must be less convincing than the ones quoted below.

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

You are 'twisting the arms' of these verses to make them prove your belief. But even so, they do not prove it at all. It seems to me you are convinced that these verses, and the ones you have omitted, show beyond the shadow of a doubt that your position is correct.

It amazes me that you cannot see that these verses have nothing to do with what you are trying to show.

Also, have you ever witnessed the possession of an individual by an evil spirit? I think if you did, you might change your "opinion". What if you yourself were possessed by an evil spirit? what would you think then?

restitution:  the return of something to it rightful owner


Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 

[pneuma]

Also, have you ever witnessed the possession of an individual by an evil spirit? I think if you did, you might change your "opinion". What if you yourself were possessed by an evil spirit? what would you think then?

Hi Theo, that one of my points also, Willie and others tell me that there is no devil, but I have come into close contact with him and know for a fact he is real, therefore all the points of scripture that they try to say means something else, falls flat for me.

[pneuma]

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

Please provide the rest of the "several proofs of this". If there are other proof texts, but "mainly because...", I think your other missing proof verses must be less convincing than the ones quoted below.

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

You are 'twisting the arms' of these verses to make them prove your belief. But even so, they do not prove it at all. It seems to me you are convinced that these verses, and the ones you have omitted, show beyond the shadow of a doubt that your position is correct.

It amazes me that you cannot see that these verses have nothing to do with what you are trying to show.

Also, have you ever witnessed the possession of an individual by an evil spirit? I think if you did, you might change your "opinion". What if you yourself were possessed by an evil spirit? what would you think then?

restitution:  the return of something to it rightful owner


Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 

Laren man fell from a state of grace and is to be restored back into that state.
Nothing in scripture leads me to beleive Man was first spiritual and then natural, espcially when Paul when speaking of MAN reverses that thought.

[laren]

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

Please provide the rest of the "several proofs of this". If there are other proof texts, but "mainly because...", I think your other missing proof verses must be less convincing than the ones quoted below.

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

You are 'twisting the arms' of these verses to make them prove your belief. But even so, they do not prove it at all. It seems to me you are convinced that these verses, and the ones you have omitted, show beyond the shadow of a doubt that your position is correct.

It amazes me that you cannot see that these verses have nothing to do with what you are trying to show.

Also, have you ever witnessed the possession of an individual by an evil spirit? I think if you did, you might change your "opinion". What if you yourself were possessed by an evil spirit? what would you think then?

restitution:  the return of something to it rightful owner


Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 

Laren man fell from a state of grace and is to be restored back into that state.
Nothing in scripture leads me to beleive Man was first spiritual and then natural, espcially when Paul when speaking of MAN reverses that thought.

Hi Scott,

"all things restored"

did "all things" fall from a state of grace??


also, what was it like for man, in "grace" before he fell?  Did he/she know they were in a state of "grace"?

[pneuma]

Hi Scott,

"all things restored"

did "all things" fall from a state of grace??

Yes all things fell from a state of grace, that is to say because man fell it brought ruin to all things, thus the promise of a  NEW heaven and earth.

also, what was it like for man, in "grace" before he fell? Did he/she know they were in a state of "grace"?


To see ones nakedness and not be ashamed

[laren]

To see ones nakedness and not be ashamed

is that not a spiritual state/mindset??



Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

[The0]

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

Please provide the rest of the "several proofs of this". If there are other proof texts, but "mainly because...", I think your other missing proof verses must be less convincing than the ones quoted below.

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

You are 'twisting the arms' of these verses to make them prove your belief. But even so, they do not prove it at all. It seems to me you are convinced that these verses, and the ones you have omitted, show beyond the shadow of a doubt that your position is correct.

It amazes me that you cannot see that these verses have nothing to do with what you are trying to show.

Also, have you ever witnessed the possession of an individual by an evil spirit? I think if you did, you might change your "opinion". What if you yourself were possessed by an evil spirit? what would you think then?

restitution:  the return of something to it rightful owner


Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 

Laren man fell from a state of grace and is to be restored back into that state.
Nothing in scripture leads me to beleive Man was first spiritual and then natural, espcially when Paul when speaking of MAN reverses that thought.

This is correct pneuma. Paul teaches that the natural body is first; the spiritual body is second.


The following passage is speaking about our resurrection.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body: it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:

1Co 15:45  The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:46  Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural: afterwards that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:47  The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly.

1Co 15:48  Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49  Therefore, as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly.

We learn from the above that:

The first Adam WAS MADE into a living soul.
The first man WAS OF the earth. The second man, FROM heaven.
The natural IS FIRST, the spiritual comes AFTER the natural.

As an aside, I think I read somewhere in this thread that after the first couple had sinned and God was telling the serpent that it would crawl on its belly and eat DUST. And what are we? WE ARE DUST. In other words, Satan the old serpent DINES ON US. And man, does he have a fabulous banquet?!

God's law teaches about restitution in the old testament. What did we lose that will be restituted? I think someone already cited the scripture.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he may have mercy on all.

God himself concluded ALL OF US in unbelief; therefore, He will restitute to us that which took away from us. He will pay us back. Don't lose sight of the fact that Adam represented all of us. In him, we all died, we all disobeyed the Creator.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi The0...  :cloud9:

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

Please provide the rest of the "several proofs of this". If there are other proof texts, but "mainly because...", I think your other missing proof verses must be less convincing than the ones quoted below.

Why should I do this The0?  :dontknow:  You are already unconvinced by what I have presented, and that is fine with me...

I notice that YOU have shown nothing to PROVE otherwise...  :rolleye:

If I posted a thousand verses, it shall not be any more convincing to you, for you are concluded against it... and you will object to them as well... so why waste my time?

As CHRIST noted in Parable,  ...and if they HEAR NOT Moses and the prophets, NEITHER will they be persuaded though one rose from the DEAD...

He is saying that if you have not ears to hear, it doesnt matter what is said to you... you WILL NOT hear it...

I have no problem with your disagreement... you are more than welcome to continue your belief as is (whatever it is?) ...but you WILL discover one day, that what I have posted concerning this is TRUE...  :cloud9:

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

You are 'twisting the arms' of these verses to make them prove your belief.

Says YOU... (in YOUR words only!)   :thumbdown:

I am doing no such thing... YHVH God and His CHRIST are noted as UNCHANGING... I have provided the verses that state this...  If in fact they do not change... then that which they INHABIT (body and temple) does not change... which is the SPIRIT of men... which is the LIFE which animates ALL MEN...  ALL MEN die for they are NATURAL not SPIRITUAL...

That portion of MEN which is a member of the BODY, and TEMPLE of GOD, returns to HIM...

That you have not received this revelation is that which prompts you to object to it... just as those who have not received the revelation of UR, and believe ET... will argue with you till the cow come home...

I have stated plainly, that I do not try to convince anyone of anything... You are welcome to believe anything you like...  :dontknow:

But even so, they do not prove it at all. It seems to me you are convinced that these verses, and the ones you have omitted, show beyond the shadow of a doubt that your position is correct.

It amazes me that you cannot see that these verses have nothing to do with what you are trying to show.

This is a hollow answer, containing NOTHING to disprove what I have stated... You failed to NAME the verses I have SUPPOSEDLY ...OMITTED... All we have here is an ongoing OPINION spouting from YOU in YOUR WORDS, not GOD'S...  :thumbdown:

You continue to him-haw... FAILING to present SCRIPTURAL notations or even POSTING what you are actually objecting to!  ...You are only found disagreeing with what I say... which is nothing more than YOUR self-constructed (but not even noted), ...INCONCLUSIVE OPINION...  :laughing7:

Also, have you ever witnessed the possession of an individual by an evil spirit? I think if you did, you might change your "opinion". What if you yourself were possessed by an evil spirit? what would you think then?

You have little knowledge as to my experience The0... I have witnessed many things in my 33 year walk with God... 

Possession of and by an "evil spirit" is nothing but a RELIGIOUS assumption...  I have witnessed several such cases... and in ALL of them, it was nothing but MENTAL deficient, sick minds which are disconnected from the INWARD MAN... which cause them to wreak havoc upon themselves...

Even modern science agrees that the MIND can and WILL produce SYMPTOMS of diseases and such which are CHEMICALLY NOT PRESENT... And that the MIND can and WILL present apparitions to itself...

When one farts, it isn't an "evil spirit" leaving the body... only a little gas...  :laughing7:

All your answer here amounts to, is YOUR OPINION, which is COMPLETELY ABSENT of God's WORDS, but FULL of, and EXCLUSIVELY words of YOUR OWN...  :sigh:

As I said before... you are welcome to believe anything your little heart desires... become an Muslim or Buddhist, Athiest or UFOLOGIST, if you like, ...it does not matter to me...  :Sparkletooth:

For ALL that occurs in His Creation, is under the CONTROL of YHVH God... even disagreement with TRUTH that YOU (or I or anyone else) might object to along the way...  :dontknow:

GOD concludes ALL in UNBELIEF The0... no one is exempt...  And only through Him can revelation be known...  Most of the time, those "revelations" will find OBJECTION from MOST... for they have not the eyes or ears to see it...

peacE...
willieH   :HeartThrob: