The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[The0]

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

Hello willieH!

I do not think your argument PROVES that we 'HAVE ALWAYS BEEN', and were once, residents of HEAVEN. While it is true that God never changes, MAN does change. We are God's temple NOW, and God indwells us NOW. But what about before God's forgiveness of our sins? He didn't indwell us! What about when God did not indwell ANY man? Following your line of reasoning, God didn't have a temple IN WHICH to dwell then. He had no abode! Fact is God has no need of man-made temples nor of hearts or spirits of men to dwell in. If that were true, God would depend ON us. But you know that God does not depend on man for anything! He is self-sufficient.

Where did God dwell BEFORE He created mankind?


SONS are SPIRIT? and they have always been (you mean always existed?)?

The Scriptures declare that God IS spirit (John 4:24). Man IS NOT spirit. Man HAS a spirit. Because God is spirit, we cannot see Him. Jesus Christ IS the image of the INVISIBLE GOD. (Col. 1:15) He came to reveal the Father to us. He is purely spirit. Men are not purely spirit. Men are made of dust and GIVEN spirits. Because God GAVE us our spirits, at death they must GO BACK to him, the giver of our spirits. Man WAS NOT before. Man had a beginning when he was created.

We are the body of Christ NOW, but there was a time that no man was a member of the body of Christ. Christ's body never changes? Just because Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever does not mean that his symbolic body [the believers] do not change. We change everyday. Christ's symbolic body, the believers, is growing in numbers, for instance. Let's not even talk about 'maturity'. We change from being immature to mature. Our being the symbolic body of Christ does not make us UNCHANGEABLE.

[The0]

willieH: Greetinz! :hithere:

Subjects:   :swordfight:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 
(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"? 
(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?
(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

We read in Genesis, that GOD placed a tree in the midst of the Garden.  And notified of its location, and commanded it be avoided.  Had there been no such tree... would Adam & Eve still SINNED?

THIS is basically the proposal of FALLEN ANGELS...  That even though no "TREE" was placed in their proximity, and though no NOTIFICATION of LOCATION of that "tree" was made, and NO COMMAND made to AVOID it... Innumerable ANGELS (not just 2 as with humans) still, ...somehow found a way to "FALL" to SIN... anyway... :rolleye:


thoughts?   :JCThink:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

Hello willieH!

The simple truth is that God created Satan to be his adversary, and a worthy one at that.

Now we know from the gospel of John that it was through Christ that  this was all done:

  Joh_1:3 All things were made by him [Christ]; and  without him was not any thing made that was made. 
"Without Him was not  anything made [especially the Adversary that Old Serpent the Devil]  that was made... His hand formed the crooked serpent."

So there are two  verses which tell us that God through Christ, "made all things"  including "the crooked serpent." But that is not the only two verses.  Look at these verses:

  Isa_45:5 I am the LORD, and, there is no God beside me: I girded  thee, though thou hast not known me:
  Isa_45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from  the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and [there is]  none else.
  Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make  peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 


"I the Lord do all these things." So God tells us that it was He,  through Christ, whose hand "formed the crooked serpent." Are we to  believe that God is simply telling us that it was He who created snakes  and snails? Anyone who does not see that God is telling us that it was  "His hand that formed the [Adversary] is spiritually blind. "The  crooked serpent" is Satan. And God tells us plainly that it was His  hand which formed Satan. But just in case someone still thinks that  Satan was first formed as a good spirit who has gone bad, we have yet  another scriptural witness to the contrary for all who have been given  eyes to see:

  Isa_54:16 Behold, I have created  the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth  an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to  destroy.   

And who is it that has come to destroy? 

  John_10:10 The thief cometh  not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come  that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 
Who is it who Christ tells us is the original murderer, who was created  to "steal to kill and to destroy?" 

  John_8:44 Ye [You Jews which believe  on me] are of your father the devil, and the  lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the  beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he  speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 
  John_8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye  continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 

So let's just ask the question, 'how long has Satan been a murderer?  Did he start out as a good angel who went bad, or what did Christ just  tell us? What Christ has just told those with eyes to see, is:  He ["Your father, the devil"] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because  there is no truth in him.

Although God created his adversary this way, it does not mean that Satan does not sin. He kills, he steals, he destroys, he murders, he lies, etc., etc. Jesus call Satan "the father of" lies. He has lusts also.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil pertains to US, humans. The first couple was created with the potential to sin, NOT PERFECT HUMAN BEINGS. However, they knew not good nor evil. They had to partake of the fruit  in order to know BOTH, good and evil.

Satan did not need to eat of that fruit. Do not lose sight of the fact that he is a spirit, and therefore has no need of nourishment like we do.


Concerning Satan this is the Truth of God's Word as mentioned above:                 

  Job_26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the   heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked   serpent.

Just as with man, it was God who created Satan as he is -   a crooked serpent. As such it is God's responsibility to do just this:

   Eph_1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of  his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

   Eph_1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather   together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even   in him: All things...both which are in heaven and   which are on earth, certainly includes Satan and the entire spirit realm, both   the good and the evil.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi The0!   :cloud9:

Welcome to Tentmaker, and thanks for your comments below!  :happygrin:

willieH: Greetinz! :hithere:

Subjects:   :swordfight:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 
(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"? 
(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?
(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

We read in Genesis, that GOD placed a tree in the midst of the Garden.  And notified of its location, and commanded it be avoided.  Had there been no such tree... would Adam & Eve still SINNED?

THIS is basically the proposal of FALLEN ANGELS...  That even though no "TREE" was placed in their proximity, and though no NOTIFICATION of LOCATION of that "tree" was made, and NO COMMAND made to AVOID it... Innumerable ANGELS (not just 2 as with humans) still, ...somehow found a way to "FALL" to SIN... anyway... :rolleye:


thoughts?   :JCThink:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

Hello willieH!

The simple truth is that God created Satan to be his adversary, and a worthy one at that.

Now we know from the gospel of John that it was through Christ that  this was all done:

  Joh_1:3 All things were made by him [Christ]; and  without him was not any thing made that was made. 
"Without Him was not  anything made [especially the Adversary that Old Serpent the Devil]  that was made... His hand formed the crooked serpent."

Hmmm... "his hand formed the crooked serpent" does NOT appear in My BIBLE as part of John 1:3... but rather is part of Job 26:13... It would be helpful if you wouldnt run portions of verses together which are in DIFFERENT contexts, but note them separately... thanks!

It is an assumption that the "crooked serpent" is a BEING...

I do not argue that "satan" (adversity/adversary) was created by YHVH... on the contrary... my contention is that this "satan" is an actual sentient entity or being...  AND... that "satan" is OMNIPRESENT, as ALL MEN must deal with this entity, whatever form it might be understood (external "being" or internal characteristic/principality in man)

So there are two  verses which tell us that God through Christ, "made all things"  including "the crooked serpent." But that is not the only two verses.  Look at these verses:

It is absolutely agreed that there are many Scriptural evidences that YHVH GOD created EVERYTHING... again that is not in contention...  :dontknow:

Isa_45:5 I am the LORD, and, there is no God beside me: I girded  thee, though thou hast not known me:
  Isa_45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from  the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and [there is]  none else.
  Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make  peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 

"I the Lord do all these things."

So God tells us that it was He,  through Christ, whose hand "formed the crooked serpent." Are we to  believe that God is simply telling us that it was He who created snakes  and snails? Anyone who does not see that God is telling us that it was  "His hand that formed the [Adversary] is spiritually blind. "The  crooked serpent" is Satan. And God tells us plainly that it was His  hand which formed Satan. But just in case someone still thinks that  Satan was first formed as a good spirit who has gone bad, we have yet  another scriptural witness to the contrary for all who have been given  eyes to see:

  Isa_54:16 Behold, I have created  the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth  an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to  destroy.   

And who is it that has come to destroy? 

  John_10:10 The thief cometh  not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come  that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 
Who is it who Christ tells us is the original murderer, who was created  to "steal to kill and to destroy?" 

  John_8:44 Ye [You Jews which believe  on me] are of your father the devil, and the  lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the  beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he  speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 

  John_8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye  continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 

Let me interrupt your oration for a moment, bro...   :laughing7:

"satan" is a principality which exists within the NATURAL ADVERSITY of MAN's "will" and stands IN OPPOSITION to GOD's WILL...

I contend that this principality ("satan"/adversity) was created IN MAN, ...BY GOD...  The WILL of man in the NATURAL state of the flesh, IS contrary to the SPIRIT... and IS the father of lies,  IS come to steal, kill and destroy, ...for Scripture notes that it is APPOINTED to man ONCE to DIE... (Heb 9:27) and that "appointment" cannot be met unless an involvement with a DEATH causing scenario was inserted in our experience...  :dontknow:  That being the NATURAL, FLESHLY (earthy) image which is in OPPOSITION to the SPIRIT (1 Cor 15:46-50)

So let's just ask the question, 'how long has Satan been a murderer?  Did he start out as a good angel who went bad, or what did Christ just  tell us? What Christ has just told those with eyes to see, is:  He ["Your father, the devil"] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because  there is no truth in him.

Man from the BEGINNING, ...gravitated to the FLESH... it is from the DESIRES [lust] of the FLESH that temptation emerges, and the gravitation to its desires begins with the attention of MAN, then ends in SIN which brings for the APPOINTED, DEATH.  (James 1:14)

James makes no mention of any ANGELIC being as the perpetrator of this process, rather... he points to it as coming from the NATURAL desires of the FLESH of man, made of DUST ("earthy")...

Although God created his adversary this way, it does not mean that Satan does not sin. He kills, he steals, he destroys, he murders, he lies, etc., etc. Jesus call Satan "the father of" lies. He has lusts also.

God DID create His "adversary" [satan], but it is NOT a being, and NOT an omnipresent "fallen angel"... It is the FLESH of man which WARS against the SPIRIT of man as is noted by PAUL and which agrees with JAMES:

(Rom 7:23) ...but I SEE another "law" ...IN MY MEMBERS, ...WARRING AGAINST... the "law" [CHRIST] of my mind [see previous verse]. and BRINGING ME into the CAPTIVITY to the "law" of SIN, ...which ...IS, ...IN ...MY ...MEMBERS. 

NOT externally prompted by a MYTHICAL "red guy with a pitchfork", ...rather INTERNALLY prompted from WITHIN the members, ...by the FLESH...

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil pertains to US, humans. The first couple was created with the potential to sin, NOT PERFECT HUMAN BEINGS. However, they knew not good nor evil. They had to partake of the fruit  in order to know BOTH, good and evil.

By your own admission, the KNOWLEDGE (of G & E) was gained only from EATING the fruit...

Satan did not need to eat of that fruit. Do not lose sight of the fact that he is a spirit, and therefore has no need of nourishment like we do.

This is selective observation...  You maintain that "satan" is a SPIRIT, and therefore conclude as you do... that "satan" gains the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL via being "created" as such... there is no verse (in my knowledge - if there is please name it) which states "satan" was a created being... nor that "he" was created "evil"...

In order to gain the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, ..."satan" would have had to have done the same thing. gained ACCESS to the "tree" which provides such KNOWLEDGE... 

Previous to ADAM (& Eve), only GOD previously had this KNOWLEDGE as noted in Gen 3:22... No other "spirit" being had this knowledge...

If "satan" had the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL... "he" had to have the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD as well, as they are ROOTED in the SAME SOURCE (tree/GOD)... Both GOOD and EVIL are cooperative and coinciding INFORMATION... and GOD has BOTH these "KNOWLEDGES"...

"satan" is simply the WILL of man which is IN CAPTIVITY to ITSELF of the FLESH, as noted above by BOTH Paul and James...

And is WHY, CHRIST instructed that we seek the WILL of GOD (see the "Lord's prayer"), which is that which FREES us from the CAPTIVITY of our OWN WILL... which is NATURALLY ADVERSE ("satan") to GOD...

Concerning Satan this is the Truth of God's Word as mentioned above:                 

Job_26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the   heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked   serpent.

Just as with man, it was God who created Satan as he is -   a crooked serpent. As such it is God's responsibility to do just this:

   Eph_1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of  his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

   Eph_1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather   together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even   in him:

All things...both which are in heaven and   which are on earth, certainly includes Satan and the entire spirit realm, both   the good and the evil.

This is YOUR current conclusion bro... and you are more than WELCOME to it... As ...I SEE IT... this view clashes WITH, and COMPROMISES, ...TOO many verses in the WORD...

There is NO VERSE in the WORD in which it is stated that "satan" (adversity/adversary) is either (1) a created sentient and PURPOSED ANGELIC BEING, or (2) was a "fallen angel" which was once HOLY...

The WORD just notes ADVERSITY as the PROBLEM, and that ADVERSITY isn't some external being, but that which is WITHIN the NATURAL man... 

Which, in turn,  ...is WHY we must be RENEWED in MIND, and become a NEW CREATION... There would be no need for any such RENEWAL or RECREATION, if "satan" (adversity to GOD) were an EXTERNAL problem...  The problem (adversity/"satan") is INTERNAL...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi The0... :hithere:

Again, thanks for your thoughts, here are mine:

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

Hello willieH!

I do not think your argument PROVES that we 'HAVE ALWAYS BEEN', and were once, residents of HEAVEN. While it is true that God never changes, MAN does change. We are God's temple NOW, and God indwells us NOW. But what about before God's forgiveness of our sins? He didn't indwell us! What about when God did not indwell ANY man?

If you maintain the GOD never changes, but He DOES NOT do "something" (dwell in man), but later DOES that "something" (dwell in man)... it CERTAINLY DOES INDICATE that HE CHANGES!

Following your line of reasoning, God didn't have a temple IN WHICH to dwell then. He had no abode! Fact is God has no need of man-made temples nor of hearts or spirits of men to dwell in. If that were true, God would depend ON us. But you know that God does not depend on man for anything! He is self-sufficient.

That is NOT my "line of thinking" at ALL The0!  I maintain that GOD is IN every man, for Scripture notes this: 

(John 1:9) ...that was the TRUE LIGHT, which LIGHTETH ...EVERY MAN... that cometh INTO the WORLD...

Also, GOD is the FATHER of SPIRITS (which ALL MEN, in fact, ARE):

(Heb 12:9) Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence, shall we not rather be in subjection unto the FATHER of SPIRITS and live?

GOD does not "sire" NON-SPIRIT entities... In the SPIRIT is LIFE, The0... which is WHY AT death, ...the carcass of FLESH is left behind, inanimate and LIFE--LESS!

Where did God dwell BEFORE He created mankind?

SONS are SPIRIT? and they have always been (you mean always existed?)?

Yes, ...at CREATION ...ALL the SONS of GOD shouted for JOY... (Job 38:7)  If ALL the SONS of GOD shouted for JOY, then ALL the SONS were there The0...

The Scriptures declare that God IS spirit (John 4:24). Man IS NOT spirit. Man HAS a spirit. Because God is spirit, we cannot see Him. Jesus Christ IS the image of the INVISIBLE GOD. (Col. 1:15) He came to reveal the Father to us. He is purely spirit. Men are not purely spirit. Men are made of dust and GIVEN spirits. Because God GAVE us our spirits, at death they must GO BACK to him, the giver of our spirits. Man WAS NOT before. Man had a beginning when he was created.

MEN are not SONS of God The0... MEN are FLESHLY creations -- Houses of FLESH  if you will...

SONS of GOD are the TEMPLE and BODY of GOD (and ALWAYS have been)... which temporarily, DWELL in FLESH for the PURPOSE of gaining the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL (which only GOD had prior)... that YHVH might be ALL ...in ...ALL... to INCLUDE the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

We are the body of Christ NOW, but there was a time that no man was a member of the body of Christ. Christ's body never changes? Just because Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever does not mean that his symbolic body [the believers] do not change. We change everyday. Christ's symbolic body, the believers, is growing in numbers, for instance. Let's not even talk about 'maturity'. We change from being immature to mature. Our being the symbolic body of Christ does not make us UNCHANGEABLE.

You are observing FLESH with eyes of FLESH that note CHANGE in FLESH The0...

The SONS of GOD have ALWAYS BEEN the TEMPLE and BODY of CHRIST... if, as you presently believe... the BODY changes, or was NOT the BODY at one moment or another, than CHRIST and YHVH indeed CHANGE... and are NOT the SAME continually...

Previous to this existence... ONLY the HEAD, knew GOOD and EVIL, and there was a portion of YHVH (knowledge of good and evil) that did not permeate His BODY...

Let me ask you a question bro... Do your fingers do what THEY want, or what "your HEAD" wants?

GOD is in process of showing His Children... what it is for "HIS BODY" to do OTHER than what the "HEAD wants"  :winkgrin:  ...And IN that process, gain agreement from the BODY, that the HEAD "knows best" and further SHOW, that the desire of the HEAD is PURPOSED to bring JOY continually ...to the BODY...

AND in that display, He is giving HIS BODY, the ability to recognize the KNOWLEDGE of that GREAT JOY via the contrasts we have been shown through the EXPERIENCE of this life in which we have endured its OPPOSITE -- SORROWS...

Is that not what YOUR "HEAD" wants and does for YOUR BODY The0?  Do you like to HIT HOME RUNS in a ballgame?  Or EAT delicious FOOD?  Or have the BEST FRIENDS? Or write the greatest SONGS?  Or wear the nicest CLOTHES? 

Let's face it bro... we (as "HEADS"), are very cognizant of OUR BODY's needs and desires... And we are about furnishing that BODY with the BEST we are able!  And the BEST PARAMETERS we are able to furnish it with, ...are found within the TRUTH of the WORD of GOD...

You are welcome to believe as you do bro... and I certainly DO NOT condemn you for it... hold onto it, until such time as GOD changes that belief, ...I once believed as do you, ...and just see a veil upon your eyes in this matter... 

There is NO DOUBT, that we'll all find out in the end, who had this right, and who had it wrong -- eh?  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[rosered]

 

  WOW ! GOOD POSTING WILLIEH!! :icon_flower:

    you know I am  glad your here bro !
  I am encouraged  greatly  and want you to know that ..   
      openly  :HeartThrob:    :thumbsup:
seems the Body of Christ is scattered abroad    Head in Place  and IS being gathered back together again  [ no fragments remain ] left behind !

  thank you   :cloud9:
God love ya .....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sister R... :hithere:

  WOW ! GOOD POSTING WILLIEH!! :icon_flower:

    you know I am  glad your here bro !
  I am encouraged  greatly  and want you to know that ..   
      openly  :HeartThrob:    :thumbsup:
seems the Body of Christ is scattered abroad    Head in Place  and IS being gathered back together again  [ no fragments remain ] left behind !

  thank you   :cloud9:
God love ya .....

Consider ALL of the above MUTUAL sister Rose!  I always find an uplifting spirit in your words...  :cloud9:

CHRIST ...IS... the "Head" of His Body and ALWAYS has been it's Head! 

Father YHVH God has always LOVED His Body, ...just as do we, ours...  :bgdance:

So glad you are here as well!

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[rosered]

 
Awwwww  that sweet Willie , you know I am learning alot here  :) Thanking God too for that  :HeartThrob:  I appreciate   the Lords whole  being !
   and I do better being  a lurker/quiet  lol  perhaps   :girlheart:

     thanks !  Gods  love to ya..  rose

[Molly]

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
--Psalm 23



"restore" [my soul]

H7725
שׁוּב
shûb
shoob
A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again: -  ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back) X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), X repent, requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.


John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.



Acts 22
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.




Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


"compassed about"
G4029
περίκειμαι
perikeimai
per-ik'-i-mahee
From G4012 and G2749; to lie all around, that is, inclose, encircle, hamper (literally or figuratively): - be bound (compassed) with, hang about.

[Molly]

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

--Genesis 3



"coats"

H3801
כּתּנת    כּתנת
kethôneth kûttôneth
keth-o'-neth, koot-to'-neth
From an unused root meaning to cover (compare H3802); a shirt: - coat, garment, robe.



"skins"

H5785
עור
‛ôr
ore
From H5783; skin (as naked); by implication hide, leather: - hide, leather, skin.



H5783
עוּר
‛ûr
oor
A primitive root; to (be) bare: - be made naked.





Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

[let us] "lay aside"
G659
ἀποτίθημι
apotithēmi
ap-ot-eeth'-ay-mee
From G575 and G5087; to put away (literally or figuratively): - cast off, lay apart (aside, down), put away (off).




Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


"have put on"  Christ

G1746
ἐνδύω
enduō
en-doo'-o
From G1722 and G1416 (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively): - array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on.

[willieH]

willieH: How--D  Bratha's  :icon_king: & Sistiz  :icon_queen: !!!!  :cloud9:

CLOTHING is something that PROTECTS and keeps NAKEDNESS from being seen, and is also an ADORNMENT which flatters the wearer... and is that which is shown to be a COVERING... which spares the wearer of unnecessary EXPOSURE...

Concerning "CLOTHING" and SPIRITUAL things JESUS said:

Rev 3:18  I counsel [recommend] thee to buy of ME, ...GOLD ...TRIED... in FIRE [in this present life] that thou mayest be rich; and WHITE RAIMENT [clothing] that thou mayest be CLOTHED [covered] and that the SHAME of thy NAKEDNESS do not APPEAR; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

NOTE that the GOLD comes FIRST, ...then, ...the CLOTHING.  It is the Revelation of CHRIST ...WITHIN... that GENERATES the OUTWARD changes in sinful MEN...

CHRIST is symbolically stating above, that our OUTWARD actions which EMERGE of HIM, which is WITHIN, are demonstrated before the WORLD, as a testimony of HIMSELF, and DISPLAY  that "CLOTHING" that covers the NAKEDNESS of NATURAL FLESH which gravitates BY NATURE to SIN...   Showing the WORLD the NEW CREATION which is accomplished from the INSIDE -- OUT...

In doing so, we both bear a SOLID WITNESS of HIM, and in His INWARD power [GOLD] as we destroy the OUTWARD NATURE of OUR FLESHLY SHAME...

This BATTLE which is fought day by day, CLOTHES us IN CHRIST, is done from the INSIDE -- OUT, as PAUL has aptly noted for us:  (Rom 7:23-25 / 1 Cor 15:31)

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

--1 Cor 15


[must] "put on" [immortality]


G1746
ἐνδύω
enduō
en-doo'-o
From G1722 and G1416 (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively): - array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on.





22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

--Luke 15




54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

--1Cor 15



2 Chronicles 6:41
Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

[Molly]

10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

--Eph 6



"Put on" [the whole armour of God]

G1746
ἐνδύω
enduō
en-doo'-o
From G1722 and G1416 (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively): - array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on.






12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

--Eph 6

"take unto you" [the whole armour of God]

G353
ἀναλαμβάνω
analambanō
an-al-am-ban'-o
From G303 and G2983; to take up: - receive up, take (in, unto, up).


G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

--John 1

"received" [him]

G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
lam-ban'-o
A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [probably objective or active, to get hold of; whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove]): - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).


4And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:

--Ex 4


"caught" [it]

H2388
חזק
châzaq
khaw-zak'
A primitive root; to fasten upon; hence to seize, be strong(figuratively courageous, causatively strengthen, cure, help, repair, fortify), obstinate; to bind, restrain, conquer: - aid, amend, X calker, catch, cleave, confirm, be constant, constrain, continue, be of good (take) courage (-ous, -ly), encourage (self), be established, fasten, force, fortify, make hard, harden, help, (lay) hold (fast), lean, maintain, play the man, mend, become (wax) mighty, prevail, be recovered, repair, retain, seize, be (wax) sore, strengten (self), be stout, be (make, shew, wax) strong (-er), be sure, take (hold),be urgent, behave self valiantly, withstand.



33I have told you these things, so that in Me you may have [perfect] peace and confidence. In the world you have tribulation and trials and distress and frustration; but be of good cheer [take courage; be confident, certain, undaunted]!  For I have overcome the world. [I have deprived it of power to harm you and have conquered it for you.]

--John 16

[Molly]

Mark 14
28But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.


"Galilee"
G1056
Γαλιλαία
Galilaia
gal-il-ah-yah
Of hebrew origin [H1551]; Galilaea (that is, the heathen circle), a region of Palestine: - Galilee.


This is the first circumcision:


Exodus 13:21
And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:



This is the second circumcision:


Joshua 5

2At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.



5Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

6For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.



It is the second circumcision which is delivered from the burden of death and destruction, and which is led by the resurrected Christ into the promised land, the land of the living:



Joshua 5:9
And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day.


[this day]" have I rolled away"
H1556
גּלל
gâlal
gaw-lal'
A primitive root; to roll (literally or figuratively): - commit, remove, roll (away, down, together), run down, seek occasion, trust, wallow.


"Gilgal
H1536
גּלגּל
gilgâl
ghil-gawl'
A variation of H1534: - wheel.



Joshua 5

12And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.

13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.



Isaiah 52

10The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

11Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

12For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your reward.



..and all the ends of the earth shall see Y'shû‛âh...

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Your observance of the topic was certainly short-lived...  :sigh:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 
(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"? 
(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?
(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

Let this be that last of discussing a different topic than the one proposed, if you would be so kind...

Why not start a "CLOTHING" thread Molly?  :dontknow:  If you are unsure about how to begin a discussion, PM me, and I'll be happy to help you!  :cloud9:

This discussion is about WHETHER or NOT, HOLY ANGELS ever FELL, and any proofs which might found such a contention... not about conversion of the soul... which seems to be that which you wish to discuss:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

--1 Cor 15


[must] "put on" [immortality]


G1746
ἐνδύω
enduō
en-doo'-o
From G1722 and G1416 (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively): - array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on.





22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

--Luke 15




54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

--1Cor 15



2 Chronicles 6:41
Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

What has this to do with HOLY ANGELS "falling"?  It is just more traditional, "Outside--In" observance... of the conversion of the soul... which is certainly a worthy topic of discussion, but IS NOT this one...  :dontknow: 

The outside is found to be the establishment of the corruption of the WORLD and the FLESH which happens from the OUTSIDE--IN... and,

The inside is found to be the establishment of the incorruption of the KINGDOM of GOD and the SPIRIT... which happens from the INSIDE--OUT!  :declare:

Change in SPIRIT is done from the INSIDE--OUT...  We do not "PUT ON" the armor of God on our extremity... it is worn WITHIN...

The CLOTHING of CHRIST is not OUTER WEAR... it is INNER WEAR!  :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

Let this be that last of discussing a different topic than the one proposed, if you would be so kind...

Why not start a "CLOTHING" thread Molly?    If you are unsure about how to begin a discussion, PM me, and I'll be happy to help you! 

This discussion is about WHETHER or NOT, HOLY ANGELS ever FELL, and any proofs which might found such a contention... not about conversion of the soul... which seems to be that which you wish to discuss:

50Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

--John 1



Who are these angels of God?  They start on earth and ascend into heaven upon the Son of man.



"angels" [of God]

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.



These angels moving up and down Jacob's ladder, the Christ, are men.  Such a man was Jacob himself.  Such a man was John the Baptist.

And, yes clothing matters because it is our covering, which is Christ, which we see here is lost during the hour of darkness:




50And they all forsook him, and fled.

51And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:

52And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.

--Mark 14

[willieH]

willieH: Hello Molly... :rolleye:

Your observance of THIS topic was certainly short-lived...  :sigh: and continues to be:

Let this be that last of discussing a different topic than the one proposed, if you would be so kind...

Why not start a "CLOTHING" thread Molly?    If you are unsure about how to begin a discussion, PM me, and I'll be happy to help you! 

This discussion is about WHETHER or NOT, HOLY ANGELS ever FELL, and any proofs which might found such a contention... not about conversion of the soul... which seems to be that which you wish to discuss:

50Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

--John 1

Who are these angels of God?  They start on earth and ascend into heaven upon the Son of man.

"angels" [of God]

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

Where in the text does it say these "angels" ...START on EARTH Molly?   

And regardless, ...what does ANY of this have to do with "FALLEN ANGELS" Molly?

The text you quote, says AS HEAVEN OPENS, they ascend and descend upon the Son of man, who is CHRIST... it DOES NOT say they "start" on EARTH... 

Irregardless, ...the above mentioned ANGELS, in John 1:51 are SPECIFICALLY noted as ANGELS of GOD, which are ascending and descending upon the Son of man -- CHRIST... :rolleye:

And, yes clothing matters because it is our covering, which is Christ, which we see here is lost during the hour of darkness:

50And they all forsook him, and fled.

51And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:

52And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.

--Mark 14

No one has said that "CLOTHING" concerning CHRIST does not matter...  :dontknow:

The truth is, that You just wish to argue about something that is not herein contended... and continue to make IRRELEVANT and INADAQUATE comments  concerning the TOPIC of this discussion.

As I previously suggested, ...why dont you start a thread on "CLOTHING", since you find it such a matter which is in need of discussion?   :Whistle:

You have been asked nicely by me to either discuss the topic or originate a new one which would entertain your agenda... yet you do not... Why?   :dunno:

Face yourself... and your motives Molly...  :sigh:

You refrain from contributing useful commentary to THIS TOPIC, mainly because you are WILLINGLY obstinate (with me in particular), and are become a WILLINGLY disruptive force within THIS DISCUSSION...

To this point you have contributed ZERO value to THIS DISCUSSION, for you continue to FAIL to address the TOPIC...  :dontknow:

Please refrain from further distractions from it... and start a thread about that which you are able, and wish to discuss... thank you...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

Where in the text does it say these "angels" ...START on EARTH Molly? 

It's Jacob's ladder, Willie.  Jacob's ladder starts on earth.


11And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

12And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

--Genesis 28



Jesus identifies himself as Jacob's ladder



51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

--John 1



Jacob himself ascends this ladder and speaks with God who is at the top of it.



15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

16And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

17And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

18And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.

19And he called the name of that place Bethel: ["House of God"]

--Genesis 28

[willieH]

willieH: Molly...  :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

For CRYING OUT LOUD!  :mshock:  ext thing you know, you'll be talking about Britney Spears in this thread!   :sigh:

What will it take to get through :director: to YOU?

This TOPIC is not about the "earthly doings of ANGELS, or that they exist, or that they ministered to CHRIST, ...it is about the CONTENTION of the TRADITIONAL Church, that ANGELS FELL while in a PERFECT Place and Scenario -- HEAVEN... :rolleye:

I'm done indulging you... get off your "word defintion" :soap: soap box...

STICK to the discussion TOPIC discussion, and cease inventing your own discussion, within it...  :thumbdown:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

This TOPIC is not about the "earthly doings of ANGELS, or that they exist, or that they ministered to CHRIST, ...it is about the CONTENTION of the TRADITIONAL Church, that ANGELS FELL while in a PERFECT Place and Scenario -- HEAVEN...

well, what are they doing on earth in need of a staircase to heaven if they didn't ....fall?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Wasn't Britney an angel who fell?,  or maybe that was her pants, I forget.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Satan was a murderer from the beginning.


John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Beginning of what?   Scripture please.

[Molly]

Satan was a murderer from the beginning.


John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Beginning of what?   Scripture please.

From the beginning of the story of Adam.

Our first introduction to him in Genesis 3 shows him lying to Eve in order to commit murder of both Adam and Eve.

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


...Ye shall not surely die:


--Genesis 3

[Paul Hazelwood]

In Genesis it says Serpent,  it does not say Satan or even Devil.


H5175  nachash  naw-khawsh'

from H5172;

a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.



H5172  nachash  naw-khash'

a primitive root;

properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally, to prognosticate:--X
certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X
indeed, diligently observe.

[Molly]

In Genesis it says Serpent,  it does not say Satan or even Devil.


H5175  nachash  naw-khawsh'

from H5172;

a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.



H5172  nachash  naw-khash'

a primitive root;

properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally, to prognosticate:--X
certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X
indeed, diligently observe.

Same thing.


Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[Paul Hazelwood]

In Genesis it says Serpent,  it does not say Satan or even Devil.


H5175  nachash  naw-khawsh'

from H5172;

a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.



H5172  nachash  naw-khash'

a primitive root;

properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally, to prognosticate:--X
certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X
indeed, diligently observe.

Same thing.


Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Context can be see that Serpent  applies to the nature of man through the word and root word.

The original manuscripts do not contain the commas used to try to show that they are one and the same.

The definition for serpent in revelation is especially of Satan,  but that is not the primary meaning, especially when the root word is looked at.




and he holds the dragon the serpent the original who is thru-caster and the satan and he binds him thousand years

The greek for him in this passage

G846  autos  ow-tos'

from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a
baffling wind) (backward);

the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative G1438) of the
third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--
her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-,
thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in,
-into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very,
which. Compare G848.


In usage and context when you remove the commas  and in context with the Serpent being Mans nature and not Satan,   This should be translated THEM.


There is still nothing along these lines that says Satan was a perfect angel who fell through a choice to become imperfect.