The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[rosered]

  this is really good Pneuma , and Willie 
but long  :msealed:
  so I am going to copy it   for  some   slow and  sure  reading
  Thanks  to the both of you for such efforts 
GOD bless   you both  .. rose

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Whoa!  You are far more traditional (church aligned) in your beliefs than I first perceived!  :omg:

There is absolutely no sense in my answering your post... you are more than welcome to these thoughts...  :dontknow:

It does give me a much better perspective of your visions though...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[pneuma]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Whoa!  You are far more traditional (church aligned) in your beliefs than I first perceived!  :omg:

There is absolutely no sense in my answering your post... you are more than welcome to these thoughts...  :dontknow:

It does give me a much better perspective of your visions though...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

Willie the only thing of tradition (which you make tradition sound bad) in my post was when I spoke on Lucifer, the churches do not beleive the rest.

And as tradition goes lucifer being satan might be tradition to YOU, but NOT to me, I was raised to beleive Lucifer was in reference to MAN, so in fact I am bucking the tradition I grew up beleiveing.

Tradition also states Jesus Christ came to save mankind Willie so if all tradition is wrong which you seem to think it would mean Jesus never came to save mankind.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Whoa!  You are far more traditional (church aligned) in your beliefs than I first perceived!  :omg:

There is absolutely no sense in my answering your post... you are more than welcome to these thoughts...  :dontknow:

It does give me a much better perspective of your visions though...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

Willie the only thing of tradition (which you make tradition sound bad) in my post was when I spoke on Lucifer, the churches do not beleive the rest.

I was not going to answer your post, but rather then make full commentary, I will note all the TRADITION aligned with the "church" in your beliefs bro, as well as some things that I feel YOU have noted as Biblical determinations with which I disagree as unbiblical...

BTW bro... I never said ALL "TRADITION" is bad... I was pointing to the TRADITION within and OF, ...RELIGION - which is what the WORD refers to, ...not to such tradition that commonly occurs in life, like  remembering our "birthdays" or "watching the super bowl" every year, please! :rolleye:

And as tradition goes lucifer being satan might be tradition to YOU, but NOT to me, I was raised to beleive Lucifer was in reference to MAN, so in fact I am bucking the tradition I grew up beleiveing.

Well hoop-de-doo bro!   :happygrin:  It isn't about "bucking" anything... it is about seeking to find what is actually TRUE, that our search needs to be about!   If we are about finding the TRUTH, then RELIGION shall for the most part, ...be jettisoned in that process...  :dontknow:

ALL that RELIGION believes is not UNTRUE, and I never said it was... but there are many (most) beliefs proposed BY IT, which are quite FALSE and misleading... and many which have left the "churches", are yet carrying much of the baggage of that CHURCH  fallacy with them...

Tradition also states Jesus Christ came to save mankind Willie so if all tradition is wrong which you seem to think it would mean Jesus never came to save mankind.

Now you are bordering on being offensive (but I choose to think it was unintentional)...

You KNOW that I believe JESUS CHRIST came to save ALL mankind... that is NOT a "tradition" ...rather, it is a CLEAR (not supposed) FACT and STATEMENT of Scripture... (Luke 19:10)

NO "religious tradition" is needed to understand what this verse conveys, ALL MEN are LOST!  ALL MEN are SINNERS in need of SALVATION which only JESUS CHRIST can provide!

I'll be noting a few things about your posts...  :declare:

And as always... hold on to your beliefs Scott... I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything... I do not post for your benefit...

I post for consideration of GOD, in hopes that HE might consider my offerings useful and worthy to enlighten, those who read them, ...as I myself, ...continue to search for HIS LIGHT (as I converse with avid students such as yourself - while reading and praying in the WORD)...  :cloud9:

I am hardly in any competition with you or anyone else here... GOD is the only one who is CORRECT... all MEN are INCORRECT, until HE enlightens us by utilizing the writings of others to direct us into the LIGHT of HIS TRUTH.  (not mine -- not yours)

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

You KNOW that I believe JESUS CHRIST came to save ALL mankind... that is NOT a "tradition" ...rather, it is a CLEAR (not supposed) FACT and STATEMENT of Scripture... (Luke 19:10)

Come on Wille lets dance  :bgdance: to get you in a better mood  :icon_jokercolor:

I think you are twisting what Scott said (surely he can comment on me commenting on your comment...)

What you wrote is a fact to you. (and me)
But do you think it's a fact to the followers of ET and elect?
So at least one of the interpretations of ALL is tradition.

Tradition can be wrong but also right.
Christian tradition sees God as the supreme being. In that case all Christians agree that tradition is a fact.

Facts very often are the same as tradition.
Sometimes there is different interpretation of facts and several traditions spawn from it.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

I'm only going to address one of your posts... too much work... hope you dont mind!  :blush:

I will note *** CHURCH in RED, and ...***  YOU in BLUE...

*** CHURCH:

Thus Satan and his angels were cast into the earth and then HEAVENS and EARTH THAT THEN WAS were overflowed with water.

Now some might ask if Satan and his angels were overflowed with water why are they here in OUR world?

Herein is one of those layers to scripture I spoke on earlier. Lucifer is in reference to Satan and man and the reason why is because in the earth that then was Satan was a MAN. That does not mean he was a MAN such as we are, but is different from us in the same way the angelic are MEN yet differ from us. Man was made a little lower then the angelic.

I already know many are shaking their heads at this and probably thinking I am nuts, but all through scripture angels are referred to as MEN.

Revelation 21:17
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

We all know of the story of Sodom and Gomorra and how 3 MEN met Abraham and how 2 of those MEN went into that city and the scriptures tell us those 2 MEN were ANGELS. Gen. chapters 18 and 19

ANGELS are messengers bro... this is a title or reference word which applies to MORTAL MEN... Only when an ANGELIC is referred to SPECIFICALLY, such as SERAPHIM, CHERUBIM, ARCHANGEL... does a HEAVENLY being enter in...

CHRIST referred to PETER as "satan", does that therefore mean the Apostle Peter was an (albeit, "fallen") ANGELIC BEING in a man's body Scott?

In the "Sodom & Gomorrah" issue, the ACTUAL judgment delivered was done by YHVH Himself (Gen 19:24)... and GOD is shown throughout Scripture to EMPOWER MORTAL MEN with Supernatural abilities, ...which the MEN (which were mortal) that both met with Abraham, and went into Sodom & Gomorrah to meet with Lot, displayed...

*** YOU:

Now some might say ok I have a point but that does not explain why Satan is here in OUR world.

The reason being is he is now a SPIRIT, just as the waters that overflowed in the days of Noah did not destroy  MANS SPIRIT just MANS body so to in the flood that overflowed the earth that then was.

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Thus the body was dead but the SPIRIT lives on.

For a clearer understanding of this look again of what it says in Isaiah and what happened to Lucifer. Scripture states that he would be cast down to HELL.

HELL here is SHEOL in the Hebrew and  HADES in the Greek and means the place of the DEAD or dwelling place of the DEAD.

Yet in Revelations it say Satan is cast into the EARTH thus making HELL (SHEOL/HADES) here on EARTH.

Think about what God said would happen to Adam if he ate from the tree, God said Adam would DIE in the DAY he ate from it.

So what happened to Adam on the DAY he ate?

He was cast out of the garden into HELL (SHEOL/HADES) and as ALL die in Adam ALL are in the place of the DEAD which is HELL (SHEOL/HADES).

Proverbs 15:24 says
24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Deuteronomy 32:22 says
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.   

These scripture are clear testimony that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the EARTH we live in, for how else can the fire that burns into the lowest HELL consume the EARTH.

Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Ever wonder why the everlasting fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels and nothing is said about it being prepared for mankind?

It because this EARTH (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) was not PREPARED for man, the GARDEN was /is to be our dwelling place.

Remember HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the dwelling place of the DEAD.

Much LITERAL observation here bro... "SPIRITS in PRISON"... HELL as a "DWELLING PLACE" (when Scripture plainly notes the DEAD "know not anything" and are shown to be OPPOSITE of the LIVING  [Ecc 9:5] - to "DWELL" is to LIVE -- to live is to "know")...

PART  *** CHURCH and PART *** YOU:

Now read Ephesians 2:1-6

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

*** CHURCH:It is clear from these scriptures that those who walk according to the course of THIS WORLD are DEAD in trespasses and sin, and that Jesus came to give us LIFE that we may sit with Him in HEAVENLY PLACES. Thus  Jesus came to save us OUT OF HELL.

*** YOU:  So then now that we have seen that the HEAVEN and EARTH that then was, was overflowed with water, that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is this EARTHLY REALM and that Satan dwells in this prison house as SPIRIT we can gain some insight to why Gen.1:2 says the EARTH BECAME WITHOUT FORM and the reason why God RECREATED the EARTH and placed MAN into it.

More REACHING... Actually VOID is also mentioned in Gen 1:2 and you purposely A-VOID it!  This word means COMPLETELY EMPTY, VACUITY or without substance!  Until GOD enacted the Creation of the Earth... it remained an inert entity.

JESUS came to save us out of HELL Scott?   :omg:  That is common CHURCH teaching and horribly off the mark!

You use conjecture based upon UNSAID things to have occured, in order to establish your doctrine of "Fallen angels" and UNMENTIONED teaching in Scripture.

Some of what you believe is close... you just fail to see that "HELL" (actually, ...the grave, which is the "running partner" of DEATH) is of the things CAST into the Lake of FIRE... which is THIS LIFETIME...

CHURCH:

Satan is now a SPIRIT and is the god and prince of this world

Who was the Apostle Peter (in the flesh) - eh?  :laughing7: 

After all, JESUS definitely called Peter "satan", so, it must be that He chose a "fallen angel" as the rock upon which to build His church, is that your belief Scott?  :dunno:

Then later on, apparently "Peter" (satan) jumped into "Judas", to get the crucifixtion program going - eh?  Is this beginning to sound ridiculous?  :mshock:

CHURCH: 

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

The "prince of this world" is the WILL of MAN which continuously acts against the command of GOD by NATURE.

CHURCH:

And is why scripture tells us that when we walked according to the course of this world
We walked according to the prince of the power of the air, that SPIRIT that worketh in the children of disobedience.

Ephesians 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

This world is not God world but Satan's and he is king in it and when Adam disobeyed God Adam entered into the Satan's world the dwelling place of the DEAD.

This is seen in that Jesus states

John 8:23
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus is NOT of this WORLD and is why the prince of this WORLD has nothing in Him.

Jesus also states

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The LUSTS of MEN are the SPIRIT of disobedience found in the WILL of MAN which is in bondage to ITSELF...  That "will" of man has no part in the WILL of GOD... for it must be DESTROYED in man, that the WILL of GOD take precedence.

It is MEN that are the "god" of THIS WORLD, not some red guy with a pitchfork!  :laughing7:

*** CHURCH:

Jesus KINGDOM is NOT of this WORLD, and this can be seen in Jesus temptation of the DEVIL.

Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

It is obvious that for one to give something away one must be in possession of that which one gives away. Thus the KINGDOMS of THIS WORLD belong to Satan.

More of "CHURCH" Scott... how do you think that this is something YOU exclusively have believed?  This is taught in just about every denomination in the Christian religion.

"satan" is ADVERSITY, and this WORLD is STEEPING in it, from head to toe... due to MAN and his inherent selfishness, pride and greed, not some mythical "fallen angel"...


*** CHURCH:

We all know of the Greek mythology of HADES and how he is the ruler of his domain, did you ever wonder were this mythology came from?

It is not just something the Greek made up, it comes from the truth and like all of Satan's tricks he corrupted the truth with mythology so man cannot discern fact from fiction.

There is truth in all mythology but it is covered up in mythology so that we cannot see the truth for the mythology, kind of like we can't see the forest for all the trees.

I watched a program on TV awhile back and etched in the stones of the days of the Pharaohs when Israel was held captive was a story written about a man god who came to earth and died and rose again, it basically followed the story of Jesus, but was of Egyptian origin and this man god was of the Egyptians. The program was used to say the Christian  of today believe in one of the myths of the Egyptians. That we took this myth that was written thousands of years before Christ and made up our own myths to support our religion.

So were did the Egyptians thousands of years before Christ came come up with this myth that so resembles the truth found in Christ?

The answer can be found in that  Israel was a captive of Egypt and the Egyptians more then likely after reading their scriptures much as did the Romans in the day of Christ understood in part a truth written in them, or more likely thought to themselves that these Israelites have a better sounding God then the ones we serves so let's make up our own version of their God and put it before the people. Thus taking the truth found in scripture and corrupting it.

Wow!  You can concoct a thing or two, cantcha?  :laughing7:

Do you believe everything you watch on TV?   :laughing7:  I have a garage cleaning robot for only $19.99 + shipping & handling... (just kidn'!  :cloud9:)

Scott... that MEN have been preaching a GOD since time began, and of SALVATION from this awful mess we find ourselves in, doesnt mean that the Egyptians created that belief!  Please!

MEN which have no SPIRITUAL beliefs to speak of, ...are easily capable of creating such NEGATIVE mythology [hades - dantes inferno/divine comedy] Scott...

Just take a second and make a quick note of the mind of Steven King!  MEN are more than able to create HELL for themselves... and then speak of deliverance from it...

*** YOU:

So then we can see that Satan  the ruler of this world.

So why would God create man from the dust of this world, which is the dust of the dead.

This is the age old question: WHY did God make MAN.

The answer is not what you likely think it is.

God created MAN for the salvation of the ANGELIC.

This is UNBIBLICAL and you know it... Come on bro... GOD created MAN in an effort to save ANGELS?  Please!

GOD created MAN to give His CHILDREN/TEMPLE/BODY -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, that HE might be ALL ...IN... ALL!  :dontknow:

The result that JESUS hands to YHVH (1 Cor 15:28) is NOT "salvation for ANGELS"...

Scripture notes that CHRIST was manifested for: DESTROYING the WORKS of the devil which is ADVERSITY!

(1 John 3:8)  The NATURAL state of MAN is DISOBEDIENCE... and IS "satan"/ADVERSE to the WILL and COMMAND of YHVH God...

Kinda *** YOU but Kinda *** CHURCH: too!

Just as God sent Jesus into this world (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) to save man, Jesus sends forth His body (the church) to make known the fellowship of the mystery, which mystery is the salvation of the whole kosmos, which was God intent from the BEGININNG, to the principalities and powers in heavenly places.

Ephesians 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This is seen more fully when we see that kingdoms of THIS WORLD which belong to Satan become the kingdoms of our LORD.

Revelation 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.  19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

This stuff is also taught in some churches as well...

But you see the principalities and such as "fallen angels" which shall be SAVED, whereas most churches see it as them being DESTROYED in the LOF. 

*** CHURCH:

What! know ye not that we shall judge angels? 1Co.6:3

Man simply does not realise his full potential in Christ, for Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1 Corinthians 2:9

ALL this is believed by many "churches" Scott... not just you...

The JUDGMENT that is done of "angels" is the obedient messengers, ...as compared to the disobedient ones...

ALL JUDGMENT is commited to the SON, Scott... not to the SINNERS which have been chosen to KNOW CHRIST in the midst of this darkness...

Not SINFUL/FALLEN MEN (which are ALL in need of SALVATION), judging SINFUL/FALLEN ANGELS (which you propose are in need of salvation)... please... :mnah:

That is just a "pot calling the kettle black" scenario!  :laughhand:


peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

You KNOW that I believe JESUS CHRIST came to save ALL mankind... that is NOT a "tradition" ...rather, it is a CLEAR (not supposed) FACT and STATEMENT of Scripture... (Luke 19:10)

Come on Wille lets dance  :bgdance: to get you in a better mood  :icon_jokercolor:

I think you are twisting what Scott said (surely he can comment on me commenting on your comment...)

Before Scott comments on you commenting on my comment, let me comment on your comment of my comment...  :heat:  :pointlaugh:

Btw... I am always in a good mood brother... but thanks for hoping to help anyway!  :cloud9:

What you wrote is a fact to you. (and me)
But do you think it's a fact to the followers of ET and elect?
So at least one of the interpretations of ALL is tradition.

Tradition can be wrong but also right.
Christian tradition sees God as the supreme being. In that case all Christians agree that tradition is a fact.

Scripture is NOT tradition brother... and all CHRISTIANS agree that GOD is a supreme being because they BELIEVE that Scripture is telling the TRUTH...

The TRADITION that my comment was about,  is the TRADITION of RELIGION within Christianity, and some of the beliefs that Scott maintains... MUCH of which is based upon premises ASSUMED of, UNSTATED by, or OUTSIDE of Scripture...  :dontknow:

Such "CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS" include, "the RAPTURE" / Creation of ANGELIC beings / the "TRINITY" / "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" / "going to HEAVEN"/ man's "free will" / "satan" as a fallen angel / Salvation from "hell" / salvation of FEW / the Millennium / Sinner's prayer / Souls led to CHRIST by men / Eternal Separation / Eternal TORMENT... etc... (there are more, but you either get the idea - or you dont)

Facts very often are the same as tradition.
Sometimes there is different interpretation of facts and several traditions spawn from it.

RELIGIOUS Tradition according to the WORD, is NOT FACTUAL... and they are NOT one and the same...  That anyone can ERECT a tradition from a passage of Scripture which notes SPIRITUAL FACTS, does not equate that ensuing RELIGIOUS TRADITION, ...with... being the FACTS...

Only GOD is able to reveal to anyone, what those "FACTS" are...

An ATHIEST can read and then deduce meaning from the bible, proposing he knows what it is actually conveying... but the BIBLE is a SPIRITUAL book which is SPIRITUALLY understood, and the ATHIEST is unequipped to understand, so his "factual conclusions" are found to be SPIRITUALLY incorrect.

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[pneuma]

I'll be back,  no time to answer thins morning as I am just heading to work

[pneuma]

Tradition also states Jesus Christ came to save mankind Willie so if all tradition is wrong which you seem to think it would mean Jesus never came to save mankind.


Now you are bordering on being offensive (but I choose to think it was unintentional)...

Glad you seen it as unintentional bro, it was not meant the way you seemed to have taken it.

You KNOW that I believe JESUS CHRIST came to save ALL mankind... that is NOT a "tradition" ...rather, it is a CLEAR (not supposed) FACT and STATEMENT of Scripture...

Yes it is scripture Willie, but it is also tradition within the church, just read the articles of faith in the Nice creed, and that was the point I was trying to convey.

I post for consideration of GOD, in hopes that HE might consider my offerings useful and worthy to enlighten, those who read them, ...as I myself, ...continue to search for HIS LIGHT (as I converse with avid students such as yourself - while reading and praying in the WORD)...

I am hardly in any competition with you or anyone else here... GOD is the only one who is CORRECT... all MEN are INCORRECT, until HE enlightens us by utilizing the writings of others to direct us into the LIGHT of HIS TRUTH. (not mine -- not yours)

I agree 100% Willie, but I also believe when people get together and reason the scriptures that it can be of help to those listening as long as it does not turn into I am right and you are wrong statements or taking shots at each other.

ANGELS are messengers bro... this is a title or reference word which applies to MORTAL MEN... Only when an ANGELIC is referred to SPECIFICALLY, such as SERAPHIM, CHERUBIM, ARCHANGEL... does a HEAVENLY being enter in...

So according to your understanding the angel flying through the midst of heaven is a MAN? Rev.14:6

What about this one, are these angels men also?
Luke 12:8
8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men,  him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:


Seems to me these two  make a distinction between angels and men.

1 Corinthians 4:9
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.   


1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

CHRIST referred to PETER as "satan", does that therefore mean the Apostle Peter was an (albeit, "fallen") ANGELIC BEING in a man's body Scott?

No, Like I said satan can be applied to man and to Satan himself, just as Lucifer can be applied to man and Satan himself

In the "Sodom & Gomorrah" issue, the ACTUAL judgment delivered was done by YHVH Himself (Gen 19:24)... and GOD is shown throughout Scripture to EMPOWER MORTAL MEN with Supernatural abilities, ...which the MEN (which were mortal) that both met with Abraham, and went into Sodom & Gomorrah to meet with Lot, displayed...

Well you can interpret it that way if you like bro, but in light of 1co.4:9 and 13:1 angels also refer to the angelic.

Much LITERAL observation here bro... "SPIRITS in PRISON"... HELL as a "DWELLING PLACE" (when Scripture plainly notes the DEAD "know not anything" and are shown to be OPPOSITE of the LIVING [Ecc 9:5] - to "DWELL" is to LIVE -- to live is to "know")...

Yup the DEAD know nothing bro, and there are many a dead men walking around even today, Jesus came to us when we were DEAD in trespasses and sin.

More REACHING... Actually VOID is also mentioned in Gen 1:2 and you purposely A-VOID it! This word means COMPLETELY EMPTY, VACUITY or without substance! Until GOD enacted the Creation of the Earth... it remained an inert entity.

Well I was not talking about VOID I was talking about WITHOUT FORM/VAIN
And scripture say God did not make the earth WITHOUT FORM.

JESUS came to save us out of HELL Scott? That is common CHURCH teaching and horribly off the mark!

Hardly church teaching bro, the church teaches Jesus came to save us from going to hell, I said He came to save us OUT OF HELL, HUGE difference.

You use conjecture based upon UNSAID things to have occured, in order to establish your doctrine of "Fallen angels" and UNMENTIONED teaching in Scripture.

Don't know how you came to that conclusion when I used scripture for every point I made.

Some of what you believe is close... you just fail to see that "HELL" (actually, ...the grave, which is the "running partner" of DEATH) is of the things CAST into the Lake of FIRE... which is THIS LIFETIME...

If that is the case Willie then this LIFETIME was prepared for satan and His angels, which is what I had said.

The only difference is you see satan and his angels as referring to MAN, but death was not prepared for man bro the GARDEN WAS.

Who was the Apostle Peter (in the flesh) - eh?

After all, JESUS definitely called Peter "satan", so, it must be that He chose a "fallen angel" as the rock upon which to build His church, is that your belief Scott?

Then later on, apparently "Peter" (satan) jumped into "Judas", to get the crucifixtion program going - eh? Is this beginning to sound ridiculous?

Willie it like I have said brother there is more then ONE LAYER to scripture and because you refuse to hear this you come up with this lame defence. I have said many a time bro the satan can be applied to man, but that does not mean there is not a spiritual enemy called satan.

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

The "prince of this world" is the WILL of MAN which continuously acts against the command of GOD by NATURE.

Hmm I thought you said Jesus had a carnal mind (and yes that is were volition comes from)

So Jesus was made just like us but did not have the will of man, kind of dug yourself a hole here bro.

The LUSTS of MEN are the SPIRIT of disobedience found in the WILL of MAN which is in bondage to ITSELF... That "will" of man has no part in the WILL of GOD... for it must be DESTROYED in man, that the WILL of GOD take precedence.

It is MEN that are the "god" of THIS WORLD, not some red guy with a pitchfork!

You just made that hole bigger bro.

Jesus KINGDOM is NOT of this WORLD, and this can be seen in Jesus temptation of the DEVIL.

Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

It is obvious that for one to give something away one must be in possession of that which one gives away. Thus the KINGDOMS of THIS WORLD belong to Satan.

More of "CHURCH" Scott... how do you think that this is something YOU exclusively have believed? This is taught in just about every denomination in the Christian religion.

"satan" is ADVERSITY, and this WORLD is STEEPING in it, from head to toe... due to MAN and his inherent selfishness, pride and greed, not some mythical "fallen angel"...

Never said anything about I was the only one who seen this Willie, maybe you can explain how Jesus had inherent selfishness, pride and greed, do to Jesus being a MAN.

Do you yet see how big of a hole you are digging?

Wow! You can concoct a thing or two, cantcha?

Do you believe everything you watch on TV? I have a garage cleaning robot for only $19.99 + shipping & handling... (just kidn'! )

Scott... that MEN have been preaching a GOD since time began, and of SALVATION from this awful mess we find ourselves in, doesnt mean that the Egyptians created that belief! Please!

MEN which have no SPIRITUAL beliefs to speak of, ...are easily capable of creating such NEGATIVE mythology [hades - dantes inferno/divine comedy] Scott...

Just take a second and make a quick note of the mind of Steven King! MEN are more than able to create HELL for themselves... and then speak of deliverance from it...

Hmmm maybe you can explain how an Egyptian Myth told a story so close to that of Jesus thousands of years before He ever came. And as I said they used this Egyptian MYTH to say the Christian of today believe in a MYTH, basically saying Jesus is a MYTH.

Obviously I don't agree with their finding Willie but its pretty clear they took the TRUTH and created a MTYH out of the TRUTH.

This is UNBIBLICAL and you know it... Come on bro... GOD created MAN in an effort to save ANGELS? Please!

GOD created MAN to give His CHILDREN/TEMPLE/BODY -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, that HE might be ALL ...IN... ALL!

The result that JESUS hands to YHVH (1 Cor 15:28) is NOT "salvation for ANGELS"...

Scripture notes that CHRIST was manifested for: DESTROYING the WORKS of the devil which is ADVERSITY!

(1 John 3:8) The NATURAL state of MAN is DISOBEDIENCE... and IS "satan"/ADVERSE to the WILL and COMMAND of YHVH God...

Well that's standard church doctrine bro and I also agree with it, but as the scriptures point out the manifold wisdom of God by the church will be made known unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places.

I know you believe these principalities and powers deal with the carnal mind, so maybe you can explain how the carnal mind will understand the mysteries of God when the carnal mind cannot understand spiritual things.

ALL this is believed by many "churches" Scott... not just you...

The JUDGMENT that is done of "angels" is the obedient messengers, ...as compared to the disobedient ones...

ALL JUDGMENT is commited to the SON, Scott... not to the SINNERS which have been chosen to KNOW CHRIST in the midst of this darkness...

Not SINFUL/FALLEN MEN (which are ALL in need of SALVATION), judging SINFUL/FALLEN ANGELS (which you propose are in need of salvation)... please...

That is just a "pot calling the kettle black" scenario!

The body of Christ will be perfect Willie just as their HEAD is perfect and their judgment will be the same judgment as the HEADS.

Scripture is NOT tradition brother...

Seems to me I used scripture for everything I posted.

Your disagreement does not make it what you term TRADITION of RELIGION
Again read the Nice creed bro for that is where the TRADITION of RELIGION first started. And I bet you agree with MOST of it.

The TRADITION that my comment was about, is the TRADITION of RELIGION within Christianity, and some of the beliefs that Scott maintains... MUCH of which is based upon premises ASSUMED of, UNSTATED by, or OUTSIDE of Scripture...

Hmm I used scripture for EVERY POINT I MADE Willie, just because you do not agree with the way I translate scripture does not mean I am assuming anything. Even though I could have used the book of Enoch I did not even though I believe it is scripture.
Where you stand on the religious tradition of 66 books  MAN put together.
See we can both play that religious tradition crap bro but it profits NOTHING.
We will both believe as we will bro until God changes us.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

got to divide this answer in TWO parts...


PART ONE:

ANGELS are messengers bro... this is a title or reference word which applies to MORTAL MEN... Only when an ANGELIC is referred to SPECIFICALLY, such as SERAPHIM, CHERUBIM, ARCHANGEL... does a HEAVENLY being enter in...

So according to your understanding the angel flying through the midst of heaven is a MAN? Rev.14:6

The Revelation is a book of SYMBOLS bro... YES is my answer!  

What ANGEL have you seen PREACHING the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to the inhabitants ON EARTH?

MEN do this brother (preach the GOSPEL to MEN), not ANGELIC BEINGS from God's domain...  :dontknow:

What about this one, are these angels men also?
Luke 12:8
8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men,  him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Seems to me these two  make a distinction between angels and men.

You didnt read what I said, did you... Go up to the quote and re-read it...

The ANGELS of GOD are SPECIFICALLY NOTED here Scott... reference to ANGELIC beings...

1 Corinthians 4:9
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.  


1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Okay, I'll buy these, ...as a SPECIFIC DIFFERENTIATION is herein made between MEN and ANGELS...

Did you re-read the quote Scott?  SPECIFICS... "SUCH AS" (such as means FOR EXAMPLE):  SERAPHIM, CHERUBIM, ARCHANGEL...

When SPECIFIC separations between MEN and ANGELS are made, how can it be denied? These are another form of SPECIFICATION, are they not?

Sorry you did not see that was intended in my statement... Don't know everything, but I still stand by my statement that SPECIFICS are necessary in the text...  :thumbsup:

CHRIST referred to PETER as "satan", does that therefore mean the Apostle Peter was an (albeit, "fallen") ANGELIC BEING in a man's body Scott?

No, Like I said satan can be applied to man and to Satan himself, just as Lucifer can be applied to man and Satan himself

Is this a "cake & eat it too" statement or what Scott?  Get off the fence...

JESUS plainly NAMED Peter satan... and you failed to answer me... does that mean that CHRIST built His church upon satan (Peter), Scott?

After all, CHRIST noted that He had chosen the 12 and ONE of them was A DEVIL, did He not?  Is that your position?  Peter was actually "satan"?  :mshock:

In the "Sodom & Gomorrah" issue, the ACTUAL judgment delivered was done by YHVH Himself (Gen 19:24)... and GOD is shown throughout Scripture to EMPOWER MORTAL MEN with Supernatural abilities, ...which the MEN (which were mortal) that both met with Abraham, and went into Sodom & Gomorrah to meet with Lot, displayed...

Well you can interpret it that way if you like bro, but in light of 1co.4:9 and 13:1 angels also refer to the angelic.

I already concurred with this thought because of SPECIFICS in the text...

Much LITERAL observation here bro... "SPIRITS in PRISON"... HELL as a "DWELLING PLACE" (when Scripture plainly notes the DEAD "know not anything" and are shown to be OPPOSITE of the LIVING [Ecc 9:5] - to "DWELL" is to LIVE -- to live is to "know")...

Yup the DEAD know nothing bro, and there are many a dead men walking around even today, Jesus came to us when we were DEAD in trespasses and sin.

Did you actually SKIP when you made this "sidestep" Scott?  :laughing7:  Ecclesiates is not speaking of MEN dead in the Spirit and you know it... This is what I mean... you remain obstinate in the face of proof... and THAT is TRADITION in action...

More REACHING... Actually VOID is also mentioned in Gen 1:2 and you purposely A-VOID it! This word means COMPLETELY EMPTY, VACUITY or without substance! Until GOD enacted the Creation of the Earth... it remained an inert entity.

Well I was not talking about VOID I was talking about WITHOUT FORM/VAIN
And scripture say God did not make the earth WITHOUT FORM.

But the TEXT, Scott... continues to say the EARTH was VOID (empty/vacuous) as well!  More of that obstinacy...

JESUS came to save us out of HELL Scott? That is common CHURCH teaching and horribly off the mark!

Hardly church teaching bro, the church teaches Jesus came to save us from going to hell, I said He came to save us OUT OF HELL, HUGE difference.

Sorry me bratha... but I have had MANY a convo on Christian Message Board with Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Pentecostals... about this very thing... they ALL maintain the we are SAVED from HELL... you just use different words to say the same thing...

CHRIST is LIFE... and LIFE conquered DEATH (which is "hell"/grave)...

Like I said brother, you are close... almost there... it is the LAKE of FIRE in which CHRIST entered, and conquered DEATH and HELL (grave)... and it is out of DEATH that His Salvation conquered with LIFE... and will do so for all in RESURRECTION... not from some literal firepit... with a red-guy with a pitchfork in charge!  :laugh:

You use conjecture based upon UNSAID things to have occured, in order to establish your doctrine of "Fallen angels" and UNMENTIONED teaching in Scripture.

Don't know how you came to that conclusion when I used scripture for every point I made.

No brother, you maintain that UNSAID things occured between Gen 1:1 & 1:2... to establish the misleading Daily DOUBLE -- "Cake & eat it too"!  ...you endeavor to concoct a teaching that notes MAN as satan and some (mythical) FALLEN ANGEL as satan as well...

Some of what you believe is close... you just fail to see that "HELL" (actually, ...the grave, which is the "running partner" of DEATH) is of the things CAST into the Lake of FIRE... which is THIS LIFETIME...

If that is the case Willie then this LIFETIME was prepared for satan and His angels, which is what I had said.

The only difference is you see satan and his angels as referring to MAN, but death was not prepared for man bro the GARDEN WAS.

Like I said Scott... I don't think we are that far off in belief concerning the Lake of Fire... our separation comes with understanding what "HELL" actually is...

If death was not prepared for MAN bro, then why is MAN APPOINTED once to DIE Scott? :dunno:

Who was the Apostle Peter (in the flesh) - eh?

After all, JESUS definitely called Peter "satan", so, it must be that He chose a "fallen angel" as the rock upon which to build His church, is that your belief Scott?

Then later on, apparently "Peter" (satan) jumped into "Judas", to get the crucifixtion program going - eh? Is this beginning to sound ridiculous?

Willie it like I have said brother there is more then ONE LAYER to scripture and because you refuse to hear this you come up with this lame defence. I have said many a time bro the satan can be applied to man, but that does not mean there is not a spiritual enemy called satan.

I was purposely being facetious, because it IS RIDICULOUS... and you are unbending bro... one day you shall see...  :thumbsup:

You have proven my words not to be a "lame" defence brother, ...you only call it "lame" because you were unable to respond to it...  :laughing7:

"satan" is the ADVERSITY which is found in ALL MEN... it is not a being... and its ANGELS are the messengers which bring HELL to the WORLD as the "GOSPEL", instead of the GOOD NEWS of the SALVATION of ALL MEN... (not angels)

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

The "prince of this world" is the WILL of MAN which continuously acts against the command of GOD by NATURE.

Hmm I thought you said Jesus had a carnal mind (and yes that is were volition comes from)

JESUS had to BE TEMPTED just as are WE, in order for many verses to be so... He was part of "EVERY MAN", Scott...

The WILL and WAR factor in the FLESH is the CARNAL Scott... and the CARNAL is destroyed IN US, the same way CHRIST destroyed it... by the WORD

When the WORD is presented to TEMPTATION (in us as well as JESUS)... temptation flees from us and is not found.

So Jesus was made just like us but did not have the will of man, kind of dug yourself a hole here bro.

First, JESUS was NOT made just like us, HIS FATHER or SIRE was GOD... you and I had 2 EARTHLY parents...

Second, ...NO!  So sorry to disappoint your short victory dance bro, but CHRIST prayed that the "cup pass" which displayed the WILL of MAN, within Him, ...THEN, He noted... "nevertheless, NOT MY WILL, but THINE be done"...

The NATURAL portion of CHRIST's MANhood, asked for the cup to PASS, but met that portion with the WILL of GOD as His preference... no hole at all...

The LUSTS of MEN are the SPIRIT of disobedience found in the WILL of MAN which is in bondage to ITSELF... That "will" of man has no part in the WILL of GOD... for it must be DESTROYED in man, that the WILL of GOD take precedence.

It is MEN that are the "god" of THIS WORLD, not some red guy with a pitchfork!

end of PART ONE...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

PART TWO:

You just made that hole bigger bro.

Jesus KINGDOM is NOT of this WORLD, and this can be seen in Jesus temptation of the DEVIL.

Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

It is obvious that for one to give something away one must be in possession of that which one gives away. Thus the KINGDOMS of THIS WORLD belong to Satan.

No HOLE bro... CHRIST did not give way to the ADVERSITY presented to Him by His flesh... 

ALL the kingdoms of this world ARE ruled by FLESH Scott!  They are not subject to GOD, but to CORRUPT MEN... which is WHY we have the world we have!

He KNEW that the FULLNESS of the POWER of GOD was in His hand at any time, for DIVINITY in its FULLNESS, Dwelt in Him... Which is why He said that He could call LEGIONS of ANGELS to rescue Him, but that was NOT the WILL of YHVH...

More of "CHURCH" Scott... how do you think that this is something YOU exclusively have believed? This is taught in just about every denomination in the Christian religion.

"satan" is ADVERSITY, and this WORLD is STEEPING in it, from head to toe... due to MAN and his inherent selfishness, pride and greed, not some mythical "fallen angel"...

Never said anything about I was the only one who seen this Willie, maybe you can explain how Jesus had inherent selfishness, pride and greed, do to Jesus being a MAN.

Do you yet see how big of a hole you are digging?

Please Scott... I have said no such thing and you know it... In order to OVERCOME SIN in ALL POINTS... ALL POINTS were presented to Him... Selfishness, pride, and greed were ALL presented to Him, and He met those presentations with the WORD... No hole...

Wow! You can concoct a thing or two, cantcha?

Do you believe everything you watch on TV? I have a garage cleaning robot for only $19.99 + shipping & handling... (just kidn'! )

Scott... that MEN have been preaching a GOD since time began, and of SALVATION from this awful mess we find ourselves in, doesnt mean that the Egyptians created that belief! Please!

MEN which have no SPIRITUAL beliefs to speak of, ...are easily capable of creating such NEGATIVE mythology [hades - dantes inferno/divine comedy] Scott...

Just take a second and make a quick note of the mind of Steven King! MEN are more than able to create HELL for themselves... and then speak of deliverance from it...

Hmmm maybe you can explain how an Egyptian Myth told a story so close to that of Jesus thousands of years before He ever came. And as I said they used this Egyptian MYTH to say the Christian of today believe in a MYTH, basically saying Jesus is a MYTH.

Sorry Scott... but your TV program isn't sufficient grounds to found your MYTH, & by the way:

Send me a tape of your TV program (which founds your Egyptian Myth), then MAYBE, I will respond... the above are just YOUR WORDS... and I have found your words a bit on the edge, here & there...  :laughing7:

This is as weak as Science stating evolution as fact, when it has never ever been anything else but a theory...

Obviously I don't agree with their finding Willie but its pretty clear they took the TRUTH and created a MTYH out of the TRUTH.

Like many ancient writings are considered Scripture (some by you), which are NOT... I dont have time to dabble and argue with a bunch of hoo-ha presented on TV...

This is UNBIBLICAL and you know it... Come on bro... GOD created MAN in an effort to save ANGELS? Please!

GOD created MAN to give His CHILDREN/TEMPLE/BODY -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, that HE might be ALL ...IN... ALL!

The result that JESUS hands to YHVH (1 Cor 15:28) is NOT "salvation for ANGELS"...

Scripture notes that CHRIST was manifested for: DESTROYING the WORKS of the devil which is ADVERSITY!

(1 John 3:8) The NATURAL state of MAN is DISOBEDIENCE... and IS "satan"/ADVERSE to the WILL and COMMAND of YHVH God...

Well that's standard church doctrine bro and I also agree with it, but as the scriptures point out the manifold wisdom of God by the church will be made known unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places.

I know you believe these principalities and powers deal with the carnal mind, so maybe you can explain how the carnal mind will understand the mysteries of God when the carnal mind cannot understand spiritual things.

The NATURAL MIND is made NEW Scott... by the REVELATION of CHRIST within... When that REVELATION takes place... CARNAL is replaced by SPIRITUAL... SELF is replaced by CHRIST, our imprisoned WILL is replaced by the FREE WILL of GOD...

No "SALVATION of ANGELS" is accomplished by GOD creating man... :rolleye: UNBIBLICAL.

ALL this is believed by many "churches" Scott... not just you...

The JUDGMENT that is done of "angels" is the obedient messengers, ...as compared to the disobedient ones...

ALL JUDGMENT is commited to the SON, Scott... not to the SINNERS which have been chosen to KNOW CHRIST in the midst of this darkness...

Not SINFUL/FALLEN MEN (which are ALL in need of SALVATION), judging SINFUL/FALLEN ANGELS (which you propose are in need of salvation)... please...

That is just a "pot calling the kettle black" scenario!

The body of Christ will be perfect Willie just as their HEAD is perfect and their judgment will be the same judgment as the HEADS.

THAT is exactly IT Scott!  The JUDGMENT is done by the HEAD, not the toenails & intestines!

No ANGELIC being is in need to be judged... and the Bible does not support it, just as it does not support ET, the RAPTURE, the TRINITY, and -- oh yeah... satan as a BEING or FALLEN ANGEL...  :happygrin:

Scripture is NOT tradition brother...

Seems to me I used scripture for everything I posted.

ALL churches use SCRIPTURE to found their beliefs Scott... posting Bible verses does not equate to posting TRUTH...

Your disagreement does not make it what you term TRADITION of RELIGION
Again read the Nice creed bro for that is where the TRADITION of RELIGION first started. And I bet you agree with MOST of it.

TRADITION concerning RELIGION was present in the days of JESUS... I dont need to refer to ancient peripheral books to know that, brother... CHRIST noted (religious) TRADTION as a WORD of GOD, neutralizer... and to this day, it still IS...

The TRADITION that my comment was about, is the TRADITION of RELIGION within Christianity, and some of the beliefs that Scott maintains... MUCH of which is based upon premises ASSUMED of, UNSTATED by, or OUTSIDE of Scripture...

Hmm I used scripture for EVERY POINT I MADE Willie, just because you do not agree with the way I translate scripture does not mean I am assuming anything. Even though I could have used the book of Enoch I did not even though I believe it is scripture.
Where you stand on the religious tradition of 66 books  MAN put together.
See we can both play that religious tradition crap bro but it profits NOTHING.
We will both believe as we will bro until God changes us.

As they say in Sweden -- Youbetcha-sure...  :laughing7:

Enoch isnt even an issue in this conversation, get over it...  You can believe it all you like... or anything else you wish to believe... Make Josephus the "new Moses" if that is your fancy...

One thing you can count on Scott, ...It wont fly with me...

Using Scripture does not facilitate TRUTH Scott... only GOD can do that... To me, RELIGIOUS TRADITION is basing doctrinal teaching upon THAT which is NOT in Scripture...

IMO... You do that often...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

So according to your understanding the angel flying through the midst of heaven is a MAN? Rev.14:6

The Revelation is a book of SYMBOLS bro... YES is my answer!  

What ANGEL have you seen PREACHING the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to the inhabitants ON EARTH?

MEN do this brother (preach the GOSPEL to MEN), not ANGELIC BEINGS from God's domain...  :dontknow:

Hebrews 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death....
That verse states Jesus, at that point in time, was somewhere between man and angel.
So preaching is not only done by men.

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Okay, I'll buy these, ...as a SPECIFIC DIFFERENTIATION is herein made between MEN and ANGELS...

Did you re-read the quote Scott?  SPECIFICS... "SUCH AS" (such as means FOR EXAMPLE):  SERAPHIM, CHERUBIM, ARCHANGEL...

When SPECIFIC separations between MEN and ANGELS are made, how can it be denied? These are another form of SPECIFICATION, are they not?

So basicly Jesus was lower than the lowest angel, including mankind as a type of angel?
Hebrews 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death....
Seems to say that an important part of being less that an angele is that immortality is taken away.
Angel type 'man' has no immortality in this lifetime.

JESUS came to save us out of HELL Scott? That is common CHURCH teaching and horribly off the mark!

Hardly church teaching bro, the church teaches Jesus came to save us from going to hell, I said He came to save us OUT OF HELL, HUGE difference.

Sorry me bratha... but I have had MANY a convo on Christian Message Board with Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Pentecostals... about this very thing... they ALL maintain the we are SAVED from HELL... you just use different words to say the same thing...

For me that's huge difference!
This how I read it.
- Saved out of hell means you can even be saved if you are in hell. Meaning when cast in hell it's not by defenition eternal.
- Saved from hell means you never enter hell. Ok, it can also be extended to get saved once you are in hell. But:
a] That's less sure
b] That's not what those ET followers you mentioned are believing

Scott can you please give a verse that proves your point/claim?

[WhiteWings]

Hmmm maybe you can explain how an Egyptian Myth told a story so close to that of Jesus thousands of years before He ever came. And as I said they used this Egyptian MYTH to say the Christian of today believe in a MYTH, basically saying Jesus is a MYTH.

Sorry Scott... but your TV program isn't sufficient grounds to found your MYTH, & by the way:

Send me a tape of your TV program (which founds your Egyptian Myth), then MAYBE, I will respond... the above are just YOUR WORDS... and I have found your words a bit on the edge, here & there...  :laughing7:

I'm not sure what Scott is exactly reffering to; but I think part one of Zeitgeist comes close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmzailhVl-U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6UdQxt7b24&feature=related

This is as weak as Science stating evolution as fact, when it has never ever been anything else but a theory...

Obviously I don't agree with their finding Willie but its pretty clear they took the TRUTH and created a MTYH out of the TRUTH.

Like many ancient writings are considered Scripture (some by you), which are NOT... I dont have time to dabble and argue with a bunch of hoo-ha presented on TV...[/quote]
Looks you are misreading things now Willie.
Scott said that some are using myth, that is based on Bible facts, to prove the Bible facts are a myth.

[laren]

Hebrews 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death....
That verse states Jesus, at that point in time, was somewhere between man and angel.
So preaching is not only done by men.

Jas 4:10  Humble yourselves5013 in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

G5013
ταπεινόω
tapeinoō
tap-i-no'-o
From G5011; to depress; figuratively to humiliate (in condition or heart): - abase, bring low, humble (self).

[WhiteWings]

Laren,

So you are suggesting 'lower' is meaning 'humble'?
I can understand that someone can act/be humble but what about 'suffering from death'
I think that is the key part of this verse.
Jesus was lower as an angel because He was able to die.
Acting very humble or extremely arrogant wouldn't change that fact.

[laren]

Hebrews 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death....
That verse states Jesus, at that point in time, was somewhere between man and angel.
So preaching is not only done by men.

Jas 4:10  Humble yourselves5013 in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

G5013
ταπεινόω
tapeinoō
tap-i-no'-o
From G5011; to depress; figuratively to humiliate (in condition or heart): - abase, bring low, humble (self).

short on time, but here's something to think about

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 

[laren]

Laren,

So you are suggesting 'lower' is meaning 'humble'?
I can understand that someone can act/be humble but what about 'suffering from death'
I think that is the key part of this verse.
Jesus was lower as an angel because He was able to die.
Acting very humble or extremely arrogant wouldn't change that fact.

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW...  :cloud9:

Sorry for the long answer WW, but it is necessary...  :mblush:

So according to your understanding the angel flying through the midst of heaven is a MAN? Rev.14:6

The Revelation is a book of SYMBOLS bro... YES is my answer! 

What ANGEL have you seen PREACHING the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to the inhabitants ON EARTH?

MEN do this brother (preach the GOSPEL to MEN), not ANGELIC BEINGS from God's domain...  :dontknow:

Hebrews 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death....
That verse states Jesus, at that point in time, was somewhere between man and angel.
So preaching is not only done by men.

This is an off base conclusion brother WW... JESUS was a ...MAN... NOT somewhere "in between" men and angels:  (1 Tim 2:5) ...the MAN, CHRIST JESUS...  Because He was BOTH, the son of MAN, and the Son of GOD, gave Him the position of mediator between GOD and MAN... He was 'kin to GOD for GOD was His FATHER, ...and 'kin to MAN, because Mary [a human] was His MOTHER...

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Okay, I'll buy these, ...as a SPECIFIC DIFFERENTIATION is herein made between MEN and ANGELS...

Did you re-read the quote Scott?  SPECIFICS... "SUCH AS" (such as means FOR EXAMPLE):  SERAPHIM, CHERUBIM, ARCHANGEL...

When SPECIFIC separations between MEN and ANGELS are made, how can it be denied? These are another form of SPECIFICATION, are they not?

So basicly Jesus was lower than the lowest angel, including mankind as a type of angel?

Hebrews 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death....

Seems to say that an important part of being less that an angele is that immortality is taken away.

Angel type 'man' has no immortality in this lifetime.

The word AGGELOS in the Greek means MESSENGER... ANGELIC beings as well as HUMANS can be defined by this word...

There is a SPECIFIC noted here WW... that JESUS [a MAN] was made a little lower than the ANGELS [heavenly beings]... NOT human "messengers"...

JESUS obviously was NOT made LOWER than MEN... He was the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of the FATHER... and was SIRED by the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD... One of His "parents" was NOT HUMAN...

All other MEN aside from ADAM (which encompasses both Adam & Eve), are sons [daughters] of MEN...

JESUS, as He often noted Himself was BOTH, ...a son of MAN, and the SON of GOD...

JESUS came to save us out of HELL Scott? That is common CHURCH teaching and horribly off the mark!

Hardly church teaching bro, the church teaches Jesus came to save us from going to hell, I said He came to save us OUT OF HELL, HUGE difference.

Sorry me bratha... but I have had MANY a convo on Christian Message Board with Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Pentecostals... about this very thing... they ALL maintain the we are SAVED from HELL... you just use different words to say the same thing...

For me that's huge difference!
This how I read it.
- Saved out of hell means you can even be saved if you are in hell. Meaning when cast in hell it's not by defenition eternal.

It all comes down to what YOUR perception and definition of what "hell" [hades] actually ...IS...  WW, you either believe 1 or 2 below: 

ONE:  If you define it [hades] FIREPIT, then the doctrine becomes a disassociation for SOME MEN... which is false...

TWO:  If you define it [hades] GRAVE, then the doctrine becomes ASSOCIATION, which is TRUE and applicable to and for ALL MEN...

If "HELL" [hades] is defined and percieved, the GRAVE [which it IS], then we are SAVED OUT of IT... for we ALL [not SOME] go down INTO IT...

However, ...The church defines HADES as a FIREPIT from which it is saved from ever going INTO it... which is where the fork in the road appears between TRUTH and ERROR...

SIN takes us to DEATH (Rom 6:23) not to a FIREPIT... DEATH takes its PRISONERS to the HOUSE of the GRAVE [hades]...

CHRIST overcame and CONQUERED DEATH by RESURRECTION to LIFE... He did not DOUSE FLAMES for us...

SALVATION, ...which is SIN neutralized or "paid for" (John 1:29), ...removes those prison bars [sins], and RETURNS men to LIFE...

SALVATION is NOT a rescue from OR "OUT OF" a FIREPIT... no matter how one chooses to WORD it...

If we are saved FROM it... that means we never enter INTO it... which in part, is the 2 faced FALLACY the Church believes:  That we are (1) SAVED from going to HELL [firepit] by (2) "accepting" JESUS, and are saved FROM IT... 

When the truth is that ALL GO into the GRAVE [not firepit NOR this LIFE as Scott views this]... and we are SAVED ...OUT... of it... DEATH. :dontknow:

- Saved from hell means you never enter hell. Ok, it can also be extended to get saved once you are in hell. But:
a] That's less sure
b] That's not what those ET followers you mentioned are believing

I once believed in HELL as an ETERNAL FIRE/TORTURE chamber... so I am quite well aware of what ET believers percieve... (spent 20yrs in Salvation Army - HELL believers)

I am not perfect in my ability to convey words WW, and it appears you are not either, so please do not expect what you are unable to do, ...from me...

We are SAVED ...OUT... of DEATH/Grave [hades] which ALL go into... by the RESURRECTED and CONQUERING LIFE of JESUS CHRIST... is that clear enough?

The Church believes that it is saved FROM HELL [firepit]... which it supposes it never enters... and its misunderstanding of the Greek word HADES is the root of its belief...

Scott believes THIS LIFE is HELL [hades] and that we are saved OUT of IT, leaving OUT the NATURAL DEATH we are APPOINTED to, and each of us DO, DIE... which amounts to dismissing NATURAL DEATH as the enemy of SPIRITUAL LIFE... again, misunderstanding the Greek word HADES, which is SHEOL, which is the GRAVE of NATURAL DEATH...

Below is the quote where words of confusion between us began...

SCOTT looks at THIS LIFE as HELL [hades] and that we are LIVING in HELL [hades] in this life, further proposing that the GARDEN [not the earth] was prepared for MAN... and that we are saved from this life which he believes is HELL [hades]... 

I on the other hand believe THIS LIFE is the LAKE of FIRE, into WHICH "hell" [hades] was cast INTO, and IS a pivitol part of it... and WAS that which CHRIST came to conquer and DESTROY...

I furthermore believe that MAN was APPOINTED to DIE (Heb 9:27), which means that THIS LIFE which ends in DEATH, was APPOINTED for man ...BY GOD, and thereby also means the EARTHLY GRAVE [hades] was also APPOINTED for MAN...  and IN that APPOINTMENT, is found what Man was PREPARED for...  Scripture notes in Gen 3:19, that MAN was TAKEN from the DUST, and to the DUST [grave] he shall RETURN...  He wasnt "taken" from the Garden, rather... from the earth... and he doesnt "return" to the Garden, he "returns" to the earth.

Scott also contends that we were prepared for the "garden" which he appears to allude to the Heavenly... but Scripture notes ADAM as EARTHY... not HEAVENLY... (1 Cor 15:47 )

The "GARDEN" of Ayden [paradise] was only PARADISE because the presence of HOLINESS was AMIDST it, and permeated it... Had GOD "prepared" us for the Garden, then we would STILL be there...  But when UNHOLINESS prevailed, PARADISE was no longer the case... and thereby from the PRESENCE of PARADISE or HOLINESS, was man cast away... and APPOINTED to DIE...

We go amiss of each other because of WORDS, and definitions of those words...  It is a tough discussion... and much of the gaining of UNDERSTANDING, depends upon ALL THREE of us (including YOU, WW)... finding the SAME definitions for the SAME WORDS... particularly HADES... what it ...IS... and what part it PLAYS in THIS LIFE...  Unless this is accomplished, our discussion cannot end in any other state than, disagreement...

Ever wonder why the everlasting fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels and nothing is said about it being prepared for mankind?

It because this EARTH (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) was not PREPARED for man, the GARDEN was /is to be our dwelling place.

Remember HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the dwelling place of the DEAD.

Much LITERAL observation here bro... "SPIRITS in PRISON"... HELL as a "DWELLING PLACE" (when Scripture plainly notes the DEAD "know not anything" and are shown to be OPPOSITE of the LIVING  [Ecc 9:5] - to "DWELL" is to LIVE -- to live is to "know")...

PART  *** CHURCH and PART *** YOU:

Now read Ephesians 2:1-6

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

*** CHURCH:It is clear from these scriptures that those who walk according to the course of THIS WORLD are DEAD in trespasses and sin, and that Jesus came to give us LIFE that we may sit with Him in HEAVENLY PLACES. Thus  Jesus came to save us OUT OF HELL.

*** YOU:  So then now that we have seen that the HEAVEN and EARTH that then was, was overflowed with water, that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is this EARTHLY REALM and that Satan dwells in this prison house as SPIRIT we can gain some insight to why Gen.1:2 says the EARTH BECAME WITHOUT FORM and the reason why God RECREATED the EARTH and placed MAN into it.

More REACHING... Actually VOID is also mentioned in Gen 1:2 and you purposely A-VOID it!  This word means COMPLETELY EMPTY, VACUITY or without substance!  Until GOD enacted the Creation of the Earth... it remained an inert entity.

JESUS came to save us out of HELL Scott?   :omg:  That is common CHURCH teaching and horribly off the mark!

Some of what you believe is close... you just fail to see that "HELL" (actually, ...the grave, which is the "running partner" of DEATH) is of the things CAST into the Lake of FIRE... which is THIS LIFETIME...

JESUS came to SAVE us OUT of DEATH, not OUT of DIRT, and not OUT of a FIREPIT... He came to RESTORE LIFE... in those APPOINTED to DIE, and return to the EARTH...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi everyone...  :cloud9:

Again, I would like to remind those in discussion, of the OP...  I believe much sidetracking, although pertinent in part, is really not addressing the TOPIC... and has prompted LONG discussions which vere off the TOPIC... ( :mblush: -- I am guilty of participating in this, but really do wish to discuss the OP with everyone)

Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

Maybe the Mods, can separate the discussion into two topics... one which can deal with "HELL", ...what it is or is not, and how or why it is percieved by those various views...  :2c:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[pneuma]

Sorry Scott... but your TV program isn't sufficient grounds to found your MYTH, & by the way:

Send me a tape of your TV program (which founds your Egyptian Myth), then MAYBE, I will respond... the above are just YOUR WORDS... and I have found your words a bit on the edge, here & there...

Hi Willie I was going to respond to your post when I came across this, bro that very close to saying I am falsifying words, basically close to calling me a liar, you probably did not mean it that why, but it close enough that I will now end my participation on this thread, neither of us will change our views bro, only God can do that for us, so I'll leave you to yours.

Plus I would like to get back to my rebuttal to Matt as I have been remiss because I am posting on to many other threads.

God bless bro.

[pneuma]

For me that's huge difference!
This how I read it.
- Saved out of hell means you can even be saved if you are in hell. Meaning when cast in hell it's not by defenition eternal.
- Saved from hell means you never enter hell. Ok, it can also be extended to get saved once you are in hell. But:
a] That's less sure
b] That's not what those ET followers you mentioned are believing

Scott can you please give a verse that proves your point/claim?

Deuteronomy 32:19-25
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.  20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. 21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.   23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. 24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.  25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.   

Jonah 2:1-2


Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.   

These scriptures show people who are alive, on earth and said to be in hell.

Thus hell is this earth

And here we see LIFE OUT OF HELL
John 5:25
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you,  The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

[WhiteWings]

So basicly Jesus was lower than the lowest angel, including mankind as a type of angel?

Hebrews 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death....

Seems to say that an important part of being less that an angele is that immortality is taken away.

Angel type 'man' has no immortality in this lifetime.

The word AGGELOS in the Greek means MESSENGER... ANGELIC beings as well as HUMANS can be defined by this word...

There is a SPECIFIC noted here WW... that JESUS [a MAN] was made a little lower than the ANGELS [heavenly beings]... NOT human "messengers"...

So man is just a little lower than angel? (the heavenly type)
If Angles are more than a little higher than man it would again mean Jesus was somewhere in between.
Personal note: With all those special qualities like brains and the power of healing I just can't see Jesus are just a man...

JESUS obviously was NOT made LOWER than MEN... He was the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of the FATHER... and was SIRED by the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD... One of His "parents" was NOT HUMAN...

Let there be no misunderstanding about that Willie for me Jesus/Son is the second highest of everything. Just below the Father. But the verse also states He was during those 33 years of human life less that all angels.
Right now He's again second in command.

JESUS, as He often noted Himself was BOTH, ...a son of MAN, and the SON of GOD...

We all are.... Otherwise God wouldn't be Father. God is Father of Adam. Adam is father of.... and that traces all the way to you and me. That said I agree with the very special conditions of the birth off Jesus.

For me that's huge difference!
This how I read it.
- Saved out of hell means you can even be saved if you are in hell. Meaning when cast in hell it's not by defenition eternal.

I think we now have come to one of those fruitless word battles.
The remark I made wasn't even about scripture. It was how I read/understand everyday English. Being not a native English speaker I leave this to others...

But for your information:
a] I don't believe in real fire
b] I know the diffrence between hell/hades/firepit/etc and all its mistranslation/misusage
c] I wrote my comment because IMO 'out of hell' is a strong UR quote that refutes ET

[WhiteWings]

Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

Ok, Willie I'll try to post on topic this time.
I searched a bit for you and I just copy and past it here. It looks like sensible information.
If you consider this off-topic too just ask one of the crew to deleted the messages. No problem for me!
If the articles are of any use to you I can probably dig up some more.


Question: "How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?"

Answer: Satan's fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power that was behind those kings - Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7) Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14) Satan's fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan's fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

The book of Job tells us that, for a time at least, Satan still had access to heaven and to the throne of God. "One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, 'Where have you come from?' Satan answered the LORD, 'From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it'" (Job 1:6-7). Apparently at that time, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. At what point God discontinued this access is unknown.

Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially "kick God off His throne" and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from Heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say that God cast Satan out of Heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17).
Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html

[WhiteWings]

Question: "Does Satan still have access to Heaven? Why does God allow Satan to enter Heaven, as recorded in the Bible?"

Answer: Satan was originally one of God's holy angels, but he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18). That was only the first stage of his judgment. Satan's kingdom was vanquished at the cross (John 12:31-32). Later, he will be bound in the abyss for one thousand years (Revelation 20:1-3) and then will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity (Revelation 20:10).

Until his final judgment, Satan is "the prince of this world" (John 14:30), but it seems that he still has restricted access to the heavenly realms. In Job 1:6, Satan stands in the presence of God. (See 2 Chronicles 18:18-21 for a similar situation involving a "lying spirit.")

Since God is holy and absolutely without sin (Isaiah 6:3), and since He will not even look on evil (Habakkuk 1:13), how can Satan be in heaven? The answer involves God's sovereign restraint of sin. In Job 1, Satan stood before God to give an account of himself. God initiated the meeting, led the proceedings, and remained in absolute control (verse 7). The result was that Satan's power was limited (verse 12) and God was glorified.

Here are some other facts to note: 1) Satan does not have open access to God's presence. He is summoned by God. 2) The visits are temporary. His time before God's throne is limited. 3) In no way is the purity of heaven tainted by the brief, God-ordained presence of a sinful being, "quarantined," as it were, by God's regulatory power. And, 4) Satan's access is only granted prior to the final judgment. After the judgment, God creates a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1), wipes away all tears from our eyes (verse 4), reveals the New Jerusalem (verse 10), and promises the complete absence of sin (verse 27).

When we say, "God cannot allow sin into heaven," we simply mean that God cannot allow human beings who are still in their sin to live in His presence. But it is possible for God to command a sinful being to stand (temporarily) in His presence in order to commission him (Isaiah 6), to exact an account from him (Job 1-2), or to judge him (Revelation 20:11-15) without compromising His holiness.

God's holiness will eventually consume all sin. Until that day, His holiness regulates sin, and that means that Satan, on certain occasions, is briefly summoned before his Creator to give an account of his actions.

Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-access.html

[WhiteWings]

When Did Satan Fall?

by Terence Chambers

I believe Satan possibly fell from heaven AFTER the creation of the heaven and the earth! Does that sound different from what you have learned? The understanding of this view from scripture will help you answer many questions. Why do some churches believe in "election" to salvation? Why did God create us knowing that many would go to hell and suffer? What does predestination mean? Many more questions and false theories such as the "gap theory" can be answered by this Bible acknowledgment of Satan's fall. There is an assumption that Lucifer fell many ages ago. Are we putting Biblical ideas into an evolutionary framework like many sinners do the dinosaur? The Bible does not put an exact date on when Lucifer lost his position, but many scriptures give ideas to ponder.

When God created the heaven and the earth, everything was good! The heaven (air or atmosphere) around the earth, of which Satan became the "prince of the power of the air," was called good. "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Genesis 1:31). "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2). If Satan had already been cast down to rule the air, this verse could not have been stated. Everything God had made was good. I believe that the creation of man, who began to receive fellowship with God, made Lucifer jealous. This may have been the event that enticed Lucifer to rebel against God.

Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden. God called him beautiful when he was there. "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." (Ezekiel 28:13-14). Notice in the surrounding verses that he was the special covering cherub. Compare this to jeweled descriptions of God's presence and surroundings in other scriptures. A later verse says: "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezekiel 28:15). (The King of Tyrus could not have been in Eden. This is a dualistic prophecy against a king by comparing him to Lucifer or Satan is being called the King of Tyrus. Tyrus: a rock )

When the earth was founded, ALL of the sons of God (angels) shouted for joy! "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7). Lucifer was present to rejoice at creation!

In a passage that probably has a dual meaning and purpose, God tells Nebuchadnezzer that he is like Lucifer in his desires and designs and will suffer as he in the latter's fall. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north." (Isaiah 14:12-13). While some use these verses to show the pre-adamic race that Lucifer weakened, it instead shows Lucifer's (Satan's) desire to exalt his throne above the stars of God. If these stars are the lights in the sky, they were created on the 4th day. If the stars are God's people (Israel), that is a moot point since Nebuchadnezzer had already done this by conquering that nation and taking many as slaves. If the stars are angels, then Lucifer wanted to be as God above an angel status or role; and Nebuchadnezzer could never attain that since men were created lower than the angels. Lucifer was apparently above all the angels already, so why would he try to get above the other angels (stars of God) that he already controlled? This word "star" means: literal - a star (as round or as shining); figurative-a prince. (Satan is called a prince in John 12: 31, "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.") Of course, Nebuchadnezzer did not fall from heaven.

Satan was not a murderer BEFORE the beginning, but from the beginning. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning." (John 8:44). What beginning? Satan's beginning? Did he work with God for eons as a sinful angel? No! He was a murderer FROM the beginning of OUR existence. "In the beginning..." His change of heart and action took place at our beginning. Scripture uses the term "beginning" as the start of the earth.

Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. There was no death in the world until sin. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12). A pre-adamic race or a formerly "cast down to earth" devil would eliminate the use of this verse. This earth was created perfect with no sin on the earth or in the heaven (immediate atmosphere). There was no death! Yet Satan is called the prince of the power of the air and thereby affects us to the point of being the "god of this world."

If God planned this world and knew man would fall, then He would have planned a Savior BEFORE the foundation (beginning) of the world. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8). God planned a Savior FROM, not before, the foundation. At the beginning, it is possible that Satan's jealousy, and tempting of Eve, caused him to fall from his position and God then immediately planned a Savior. The prior verse is often misquoted with a "before" instead of the "from." This Savior was already planned to fellowship with us. (Predestination and election) "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." (Ephesians 1:4). Then sin caused man to have blame, but lambs, and then The Lamb, has given us back to Him.

If Lucifer fell earlier (in a prior humanity; "gap theory"), why did God not put him away forever as He does in the Book of Revelation? Is God so mean that He would create man knowing the devil was out and about and that millions would go to hell? Many sinners are disturbed by a God that planned so much horror. If Satan fell after creation, then sinners can know God planned only good for them and Satan is the problem, not God!

Hopefully, you can see that this answers many doctrinal questions and misconceptions about God. We were ALL predestined to serve God, but Satan ruined it for many since Eden. We were ALL elected to be God's children and serve His Son, but the fall of man diverted God's plan for a while. (though He made plans for those who had a heart for Him) "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." (Ephesians 1:5). To know we would sin would be to create us predestined to sin. Anything that He knows has to happen. If Lucifer fell AFTER creation, then the doctrines of predestination and election are even more understandable. Many hyper-Calvinists struggle with these doctrines because most feel that Lucifer fell in ages past BEFORE the earth and heaven were created. This possible understanding of Lucifer's fall allows "whosoever will..." to coincide with election very easily. Otherwise, much confusion results. I cannot conceive God making a plan knowing it would fail. He only knows what He wants to know. Just as He can forget my sin, He could create earth with all great intentions and plans. SATAN WAS THE MESS-MAKER. It seems odd that God would create us knowing sin would develop. But maybe God only knows what He wants to know. Does He remember your sin? Not if your sin is washed away by faith in His Son and the power of His blood to cleanse! So God could have possibly created the heaven and the earth with full intention of having us as His children (predestined) by the fellowship of His only begotten Son. Even now, all have been elected to be His, by virtue of His breath (spirit) in us. Many refuse and God uses them to accomplish His plans (such as Pharoah was raised up for Him). There is no need for a gap theory to prove time for dinosaurs (large reptiles) or to provide a space for Satan to fall. "In the beginning..." means just that. We don't even know that angels were created very long before the beginning. Why have we assumed millions of years for angels? Maybe angels have been around for most of eternity. Why did it take so long for Satan to reveal his true nature? The creation of man for God to love and receive love from must have been the catalyst to cause Lucifer to take self-willed action to mess up God's plan. If Satan fell before the beginning, then it is easy to see why sinners think God is playing some type of game with mankind. God did not plan death of any type, because He planned "the green herb" and fruits for man to eat. Meat was allowed after the flood. God's plan was good. He has won the victory over Satan and you can win with Christ! THINK ON THESE THINGS!

(http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/doc/images/images2/devil.gif)