A little more on Gods Fire.

[bobf]

while reading about the lake of fire being death I was thinking this very same thing.

It doesn't say the lake of fire is death it says because of being thrown into the lake of fire they experience the second death. Not that the lake of fire is the second death but one dies after experiencing the lake of fire.

That's how I've always understood it.

I have wondered if the lake of fire wasn't the Holy Spirit? This can't be either because John said they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt. 3:11) he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall  baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

I can't find the verse right now but doesn't it say the lake of fire was prepared for satan and his angels? If this is true the lake of fire cannot be God.

CHB

I agree, it's not the Holy Spirit either.  IMO the LOF is simply divine judgment, the fulfillment of God's law, the reaping of what was sown to the flesh.  It is within that judgment that the second death takes place.

Deuteronomy 32:35  To me [belongeth] vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36  For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left. 37 And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted,

"There power is gone, there is none shut up, or left" sounds like the death of one's idolatry and that is when God's judgment comes to rest.

[Tony N]

Hi bobf, that is strange. The Greek texts I have do have "-the lake of fire" in there. Here are some bibles with and without "the lake of fire" in them:
Rev 20:14

(ALT)  And death and the realm of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

(ASV)  And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

(CEV)  Afterwards, death and its kingdom were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(CLV) And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

(DRB)  And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.

(ESV)  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

(GNB)  Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.)

(GW)  Death and hell were thrown into the fiery lake. (The fiery lake is the second death.)

(HCSB)  Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

(ISV)  Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This is the second death-the lake of fire.)

(KJV)  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


(LITV)  And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

(MKJV)  And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

(MSG)  Then Death and Hell were hurled into Lake Fire. This is the second death--Lake Fire.

(RV)  And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

(Webster)  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(WNT)  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire; this is the Second Death--the Lake of fire.

(YLT)  and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;

The 1611 KJV, the 1833 Webster and 1898 Young's Literal must follow a text without all that God originally said :)

It is the same as saying: "This is the 43rd president - George Bush." It could be re-written: "George Bush is the 43rd president."
Likewise "This is the second death - the lake of fire"  can be re-written: The lake of fire is the second death."

Bobf replied: Yes, if that phrase is in the scriptures then the lake of fire is the second death.  In that case it's rather doubtful that the second death is like the "last enemry, death" which is being cast into it and apparently consumed by it.

Tony's reply: I don't follow your logic there. Death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire stands for the people held by death and the unseen. It does not mean that a concept called "death" and a concept called "the unseen" are put to death.

Tony's reply: As far as those in the lake dying when Christ died, this is true. Yet it is not true that the lake of fire is death in Christ. When Christ died, all mankind died (2 Cor.5:14) yet this is not applied to those in the lake of fire until the consummation of the eons. If it were applied to them now, prior to the judgment at the Great White Throne, they would not be in the lake of fire when that judgment occurs. They would not even be standing before the GWT. They would be righteous and justified and would have not been condemned with the world. Had it been applied to them now they never would have to go into the second death. We who have Christ' death applied to us do not go to the second death.

bobf replied: I'm not sure what you're saying here.  What I meant by the second death being death #3 was losing ones life for Christ's sake in order to find life.  Not everyone has done that.

[/quote]

Tony's reply:
Are you saying that all unbelievers in 2008 who become believers in 2008 are cast into the lake of fire? I'm not following you.

[Tony N]

Not to be premature, because I am at work until 12am, and without my bible, but when we consider the Lake of Fire, and God throwing death into it, the things thrown into the Lake, are NOT the Lake itself. The Lake of Fire is not humans, not demons, not death, not the Grave. These are things thrown into it. The Lake of Fire was " Prepared for satan and his demons", meaning the purpose for throwing them into it is differing than other things thrown in. God has a special party for them. Something espically prepared for them.

However, when it states that death is thrown into the Lake, then states that to be the second death, it is not calling the Lake of Fire death. It says this is the second death, it is simply eulogizing death, not labeling the Lake as being death itself. It means that God will never allow anythingelse to die, which is actually proof that the humans thrown in afterwards, surely cannot die, because death is done away with. Which further makes this Lake a place of Life, because it destroys death, or it MARKS the end of God using death.

Dear Mickiel,
It is most likely you did not understand what I wrote before concerning this. I will post it again:
You state that "the lake of fire is not death." The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. In other words, The lake of fire is death. Concerning death and Hades or more properly "death and the unseen" are cast into the lake of fire, the words "death and the unseen" should be viewed as a metonymy.
"death and the unseen are used in reference to those of mankind who are associated with death and the unseen, the unjust dead (vss.12,13). In other words, those who were held by death and the unseen are cast into the lake of fire.
It is the same as if I said "The city of Bonn, Germany died in a single night of fighting." Would we think that the buildings of the city along with the sewer system fought that night and the building and sewer system died or the people of that city faught and died. The latter is the case.

Mickiel wrote: The Lake of Fire is not a death pool, not a grave, not a punishing pit, and far too many view it as such. It has multiple personalitys, because God is using it for diverse reasons.

Listen, I was not going to bring this up, but I keep refering to the Spirit world as a place of Fire. Much as we view water, I begin to believe that Spirit beings view Fire like this. Water is a part of us, we gain nourishment from it, its in us. We swim and bathe in it. I think so do Spirit beings with Fire. A Lake of Fire to them is a thing of bueaty, and I wouldnot doubt that there are other lakes and Rivers of Fire in Gods Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is also a place of Water. A Great wonderous place, but I get ahead of myself.

Peace.

Hello again Mickiel, if the spirit beings think the lake of fire is to them a thing of beauty then why are they in torment while interred therein?

For humans the lake of fire is not a place of torment. It is unconscious death for them. So I would agree with you that it is not a punishing pit. However, I humbly disagree with you that the lake of fire "is not a death pool, not a grave." Well, the Bible does not call the lake of fire a "death pool" or "a grave." It does, however call it "the second death." Just as there is a first hour and a second hour, both hours are, well, you know . . . hours. Just as there is a first death and a second death, both deaths are death. They are not life.

Let me ask you this, friend: Do you believe that the fires of Gehenna are going to be a thing of beauty along with the stinking cadavers in Gehenna that are being eaten by worms during the millennial reign of Christ?

Isa 66:24 And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

Mickiel wrote: The Lake of Fire was " Prepared for satan and his demons", meaning the purpose for throwing them into it is differing than other things thrown in. God has a special party for them. Something espically prepared for them.

I think you must be quoting this:
"Mat 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the adversary and his messengers."

That, friend, is during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. Those nations that mistreated Christ's brethren will enter into what could best be described as a "fire eonian" or linguistically: The fire pertaining to that specific 1000 year long eon. And what is that "fire" those nations experience? It is stated in Matt.25:46:
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian."

Just as Israel went through the iron furnace during their 400+ years in Egypt, now it is the nations turn to experience that fire. But this is not the lake of fire. The lake of fire comes at the end of the 1000 year reign.
The adversary and his messengers is not Satan and his demons but the adversarial nation and that nation's emmisaries which carried letters of harm concerning Christ's brethren. It can't be "the fire prepared for Satan and his demons" because that would mean that these nations go into the lake of fire and sulphur 1000 years before they are supposed to. Get it?

[martincisneros]

Hi Tony,

How many times has the KJV been revised since 1611? LOL.  Elhanan Winchester in the 1700s, in The Universal Restoration, understood this Lake of Fire passage in the way that you're talking about.  So, I'm personally wondering if any of the earlier editions of the KJV have that phrase in Revelation 20.  I was going to see if I could track down any older editions of the KJV at any local antiquarian shops for a quick peak at Revelation 20, but I accidentally caught someone's flu yesterday so I'm staying home today and drinking as much distilled water as possible.  I think I've successfully kicked it out about 90% of the way, but I've still got the aches over it.  I was going to skim my copy of Winchester's Dialogues to see if there was a quotation of this Revelation 20 passage, but it's not happening with this headache. LOL.

[Tony N]

Hi Martin,
I'm so sorry you are down with the flu. If you take some Kelp tablets the iodine in them will go into your lymph nodes and when the flu virus circulates through them the lymphatic system will attack them little critters with a vengeance. (This is not meant to be taken as medical advice).

I don't know what version Elhanan used. He might have had access to other Grk. texts? or other versions?

Prayers for a speedy recovery, friend. May God also give you the grace to enable you to undergo this trial in the flesh.

Tony

Hi Tony,

How many times has the KJV been revised since 1611? LOL.  Elhanan Winchester in the 1700s, in The Universal Restoration, understood this Lake of Fire passage in the way that you're talking about.  So, I'm personally wondering if any of the earlier editions of the KJV have that phrase in Revelation 20.  I was going to see if I could track down any older editions of the KJV at any local antiquarian shops for a quick peak at Revelation 20, but I accidentally caught someone's flu yesterday so I'm staying home today and drinking as much distilled water as possible.  I think I've successfully kicked it out about 90% of the way, but I've still got the aches over it.  I was going to skim my copy of Winchester's Dialogues to see if there was a quotation of this Revelation 20 passage, but it's not happening with this headache. LOL.

[Mickiel]

In Revelation 2:10-11, notice;"Be Faithful unto Death, and I will give you a Crown of Life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be Hurt by the Second Death." I want you to study the word " Hurt" here. Obviously we all must die, notwithstanding the few who are changed in the twinkling of an eye, and caught up with Christ. But even that split second change, is a type of death, but it is death with " No Pain." No Hurt. But the flesh will die. The human that sins will die, that death will be the first death. Its going to hurt. Now any human ressurected to be judged, must then die again, but that second death does not have to be painful.

The second Death can be a most delightful experience, when the pain is removed from it. Its like childbirth, you remove the pain, then the woman and man would better enjoy the birth of their child. So God can remove the hurt and Pain , even from death. And he can remove it from the Lake of Fire.

Look at this chronology from Rev.20:14-15, where the second death is mused into the Lake of Fire. In 21:1, the New heavens and the new earth are brought into reality. Remember, the Lake of Fire is still there, on scene. The Holy City is brought down to earth. Then a loud voice announces that God himself shall now tabernacle with men. God will wipe away sadness himself, and it states that there " Shall NO LONGER be any Death." No mourning, crying,or Pain( Hurt). The Jesus Speaks up and announces that he is " Making ALL THINGS NEW!"

This newness includes the Lake of Fire, it will be made New! Or its purpose will be changed. It will no longer serve as a place of sorrow and Pain, no longer. It will be changed! God is fund of changing the nature of things.

And I want to go further into the Lake of Fire.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

So the second death, will be mused or mixed into the Lake of fire, and for that moment, yes Tony, the Lake of Fire will be Death, but understand that it willnot remain death, and the second death willNOT be like the First! God is prepping to even change the very nature of Death, and remove its sting! The second death will be changed to Life! It already is a format for Life.

The second Death is a format for Life. Understand what God is mixing into this Great Lake. And WHY!

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

In 1 Corinth. 15:55-56;" O Death where is your victory? O Death, where is your sting? The Sting of Death is sin. If you remove sin, you remove hurt. The very nature then of the Lake of Fire, is to " Remove", or take away Sin! THAT IS A BAPTISM! Thats what Gods Fire does! It removes, it ends, all pain and suffering. All hurt, there will be no more pain or hurt. So although we are impressed by the Lakes ability to cause hurt and Pain, its designed to shift gears AWAY from hurt and Pain, even condemnation.

Thanks be to God, the Victory of the Lake of Fire, is an ultimate blessing, our victory will be in Christ ability to make ALL things New!

With this in mind, lets continue on the Lake.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

The transformation of the Lake of Fire, or Jesus promise AFTER he comes to earth to make ALL things new, must be considered while examining the nature or the meanings of the Lake of Fire. Again  1Corinth. 15:54;" But WHEN this perishable will have put on Imperishable, this mortal will have put on immortality, THEN will COME ABOUT the saying that is written, " Death is swallowed up IN VICTORY!" The second death is a true sign of Victory! The Lake of Fire is Victory! It is NOT sadness, doom, suffering or death. It is Victory!

Listen, Death will be swallowed up BY the Lake of Fire, THAT is the victory. Everything that humanity believes will perish in the Fire, all the biblical verses on Perishing, will have a TRANSFORMATION IN the Lake, and that perishing will PUT ON Imperishing, or change. Because God is the source of the Change, of the Fire. The true focus is not what the second death is, its God removing Death from reality, and transforming  Death to Life! Death is a format, or a foundation for change for mortal to immortal.

And I want to get into some scriptures on that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Listen closely and study in prayer. 1Corinth. 15:56;" The sting of Death is sin, and the Power of Sin is the Law!" Sin is a written letter by God, wrote with his own hand into a book, one of the Books that will be opened at the Great White throne Judgement.  God wrote it to be as it has been. The reason why any name is not found written in the Book, is because God didNOT desire to precondemn anyone, but to save them. So they are cast into the Lake, only to be written into the Book of Life, because they will now be renewed.

Because the Salvation of humanity is also a written letter from God, or another book that will be there at this JUdgement. Names not in one book, will be in the other book, because the other book is still currently being written by God, the Living book of LIfe!

The Power of Sin is the Law, but the Power of God, HAS NO LAW! Galations 5:23, all the Fruits of Gods Spirit, hold NOTHING that could be against humanitys Salvation! Against Gods Spirit, there IS NO LAW! The Law of Sin is cancelled and overuled, the Law of gravity is rendered meraningless, the Law of Death is useless, the Law of Justice and Judgement is obsolette. You need to understand this. ALL Laws in the Lake of Fire, are going to be changed IN humanitys Favor. That IS the Grace of God!

The Mercy in his Rule.

And I want to get into more scriptures to show another aspect of the Lake of Fire.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Here is the New Law Christ was bringing into motion in Revelations when he promised to make ALL THINGS NEW! Galations 6:2;" Bear one anothers BURDENS, this FULFILLS the Law of Christ!" Christ will bear all of humanitys burdens, you already know the Scriptures on that, but they are to be applied AFTER Jesus has returned, AFTER the Lake has consumed, AFTER the Pain and Hurt. After humans are placed into the Lake!

Now Listen, if we are to examine our own work, Gal.  6:4, what do you think will be the result of Christ himself examining HIS own Work!

Now, come on, Christ examining his own Work. He defeated satan, and destroyed his work on humanity. THAT renders the second death as meaningless to law, useless to sin, ALL benefical to humanity. There is absolutely no possible way that humanity could loose out on Salvation.

And absolutely no OTHER meaning for the Lake of Fire, than retrobution. Redemption.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

I have already mentioned that people thrown into the Lake of Fire, will be frightened and weeping, not because of Pain and punishment, but because of Shock and misunderstanding. Hebrews 10:31, " It is a terrifying thing to FALL INTO( or be placed into the Lake) the hands of the Living God." This is WHY we read about the terror, the misery, the future shock, the dismay. All related to this Lake of Fire. It will be a time of terror, for sure. It scares me to think on it even now.

It scares me to be riding with someone who shifts their car into high speed gear, they are moving faster. And I am along for the ride. The Lake of Fire is God shifting gears on humanity, changing realitys, shifting into another very high gear. I understand its hard to have confidence to enter into this most Holy Place. Heb. 10:19. But it is a NEW Change that Jesus Promised, 10:20, a new and LIVING way inaugurated FOR us!

God IS LIght, IN him there is NO Darkness AT ALL! 1John 1:5. The Lake of Fire IS NOT Darkness, its NOT a dark moment in humanitys history. Its our BEST moment.

And allow me to continue on that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Consider this; If you are the director of anything, holding power over the conclusion, why would you wreck everything in a moment of doom? If you are sane, you wouldnot. What makes you think God would do this? Bring humanity to a climax of fire and doom. Burn us into some perverted submission. The Lake of Fire is NOT God gaining control of things, hes alrerady in control. Its not him causing results or getting rid of humanity. Its all according to his will. Its not him Judging. Its not. Its all predetermined, predestined movements, none of which are in doubt to him. And these events will GREATLY enlarge our Faith in him. The Love involved will grow Greater.

But let me sidetrack, and go into how I believe the Lake of Fire will Sanctify Entirely. 1Thess. 5:23. And All humans will be preserved COMPLETTELY!

Peace.

[martincisneros]

Its all according to his will. Its not him Judging. Its not.

11 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them.
12 And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts.
13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts. (Revelation 20:11-13 CLNT)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that was sitting thereon, from whose face fled the earth and heaven, and, place, was not found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and, books, were opened, and, another book, was opened, which is, the book, of life; and the dead, were judged, out of the things written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and, death and hades, gave up the dead that were in them; and they were judged, each one, according to their works. (Revelation 20:11-13 Rotherham's Emphasized)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; 12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; 13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; (Revelation 20:11-13 Young's Literal)

11 And I saw a Great White Throne, and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled; and a place was not found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works. (Revelation 20:11-13 Green's Literal)

11Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
12I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
13And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works]. (Revelation 20:11-13 Amplified Bible)

Seems to me as though this passage is talking about judgment.  The only thing left to talk about along those lines is what/when/why is the Lake of Fire and how God's supposed to bring anything good out of that tragedy.  God brought misery into the lives of countless Gentiles in Old Testament times because of His Covenant people, and also to deal with their sins, yet those same people found mercy in a latter age.  If it weren't for a raising from the dead being associated with this judgment, I'd be tempted to think that it was some large scale tragedy that happens here on earth, or that it was a summarizing of all of the judgments of the book of Revelation into a couple of verses.  Yet there's something extra-demensional about this judgment because the earth and heavens disappear from His sight while this is going on.  It's a one-on-one dealing with each individual, either of all of humanity that's ever lived or of those that died during the millenium (I think it's ambiguous on that point), and He's not being watchful of the entire Creation while that's going on.  On the ambiguity side, what about the preflood people?  Are they having to go through this judgment, when the Scriptures say that they're both judged and brought into life through the preaching of Christ after His Crucifixion?  I personally think it's an oversimplification to say that it's a judgment of everyone that's ever lived.  That ignores too much of what's happened previously.  Some have interpreted Jesus' comments about that first century generation having already been judged at His crucifixion and in the cries of the blood of all of those that He said would rise in the judgment against them to have culminated in the 70AD destruction.  If there's any or much truth to that, then their generation might also be excused/excluded from the Lake of Fire judgment if it's yet future.

[Mickiel]

Judgement day is a misnomer, God has already Judged humanity.

The Great white throne is not about Judgement, its about the unfolding of Gods predetermined will.

And I will show this tommorrow night.

Peace.

[bobf]

Hi bobf, that is strange. The Greek texts I have do have "-the lake of fire" in there. Here are some bibles with and without "the lake of fire" in them:
Rev 20:14

The 1611 KJV, the 1833 Webster and 1898 Young's Literal must follow a text without all that God originally said :)

The Blue Letter Bible website says that phrase is in the M and NU texts.

Tony's reply: I don't follow your logic there. Death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire stands for the people held by death and the unseen. It does not mean that a concept called "death" and a concept called "the unseen" are put to death.

My logic is:
1. If the lake of fire = second death
2. Second death = a second rehash of 'death and hades'
Then death and hades are cast into a second version of themselves.  Which would be a rather odd exercise.

I do not agree that death and hades being cast into the LOF symbolizes only those held by death and hades and not death and hades themselves.  To say that would 'be rather bold' since all bibles say that death and hades are cast into the LOF, in addition to saying the those not found in the BOL will be cast there.  So there is no question that death and hades are cast into the LOF.  The only question is whether they are consumed by that fire.  It seems reasonable to me that a symbolic 'lake of fire' will in some sense consume all that is cast into it.

Tony's reply:
Are you saying that all unbelievers in 2008 who become believers in 2008 are cast into the lake of fire? I'm not following you.

I was attempting to address an objection that I probably did not follow, so I'm not surprised you didn't follow me either.

No, I'm not saying that believers are cast into the lake of fire.  I'm saying that unbelievers (liars, idolators, etc.) are cast into the LOF.  I'm saying that the LOF symbolizes divine judgment, and that the only 'exit' for those within God's judgment, is to turn away from serving dead gods and to seek the living God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. In doing so they find life and thus death & hades which held them are consumed.

Example, the 'prodigal' son:
- The fuel for the fire was his trading his inheritance with God in order to pursue riotous living.
- This was idolatry in its purest form.
- All idolators have their part in the LOF.
- The 'fire' was his reaping of what he sowed.
- Being 'lost and dead' he was in the grips of 'death and hades'
- He found life when he saw that the gods he was serving were dead idols, leading to destruction, he cast off those idols, he saw that he deserved nothing with God, and that he needed mercy, and he returned to God with a pure and contrite heart.
- Thus 'death and hades' were consumed (for him) along with his old wicked self.  It is in this sense that I see 'death and hades and him' being cast into the LOF to be consumed.
- The second death in all this was, imo, the destruction of his 'old self' which preferred to serve idols instead of God.

Judgment is often likened to fire throughout scripture, and judgment is shown to be both destructive and yet beneficial.

Isaiah 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself. 11  Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you. 12 And the people shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup

Zepheniah 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination [is] to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, [even] all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. 9  For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. 10  From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.  10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. 

Deuteronomy 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left.

[bobf]

It is the same as if I said "The city of Bonn, Germany died in a single night of fighting." Would we think that the buildings of the city along with the sewer system fought that night and the building and sewer system died or the people of that city faught and died. The latter is the case.[/i]

That's possible.  But we also say things like this: "Our superior airforce will be their destruction" when we really mean it will be the agent that brings about their destruction.

[Tony N]

In Revelation 2:10-11, notice;"Be Faithful unto Death, and I will give you a Crown of Life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be Hurt by the Second Death." I want you to study the word " Hurt" here. Obviously we all must die, notwithstanding the few who are changed in the twinkling of an eye, and caught up with Christ. But even that split second change, is a type of death, but it is death with " No Pain." No Hurt. But the flesh will die. The human that sins will die, that death will be the first death. Its going to hurt. Now any human ressurected to be judged, must then die again, but that second death does not have to be painful.

Hi Mickiel,
Thanks for your thoughts. I am curious how you have come up with the idea that the change from mortality to immortality is a type of death? I would call it a change from a dying creature (for the ones changed while alive) to immortality and it is a change from actual death (for those in the graves) to instant immortality.

Mickiel wrote: The second Death can be a most delightful experience, when the pain is removed from it. Its like childbirth, you remove the pain, then the woman and man would better enjoy the birth of their child. So God can remove the hurt and Pain , even from death. And he can remove it from the Lake of Fire.

Tony: Gen 3:16 And to the woman He says, "Multiplying, yea, multiplying am I your grief and the groaning of your pregnancy. In grief shall you bear sons. "Yet by your husband is your restoration, and he shall rule over you."

Childbirth is not meant to be pleasant in these mortal bodies. God said so.

I doubt there is pain in the second death, otherwise it would not be called "the second death." I don't know how you would think that being cast into the last enemy called "death" would be a wonderful experience.

Mickiel wrote: Look at this chronology from Rev.20:14-15, where the second death is mused into the Lake of Fire. In 21:1, the New heavens and the new earth are brought into reality. Remember, the Lake of Fire is still there, on scene. The Holy City is brought down to earth. Then a loud voice announces that God himself shall now tabernacle with men. God will wipe away sadness himself, and it states that there " Shall NO LONGER be any Death." No mourning, crying,or Pain( Hurt). The Jesus Speaks up and announces that he is " Making ALL THINGS NEW!"

Tony's reply:
Dear Mickiel,
Death is not done away with for the whole planet at the time God says "there shall no longer be any death." How do I know this? Paul wrote that death is not abolished until

• 1) Christ quits reigning
  2) all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28)

Please note that Christ never quits reigning in Revelation.
Also, please note that on the new earth there are still kings, sovereignties, authorities and powers. Therefore death for the whole planet has not yet been done away with. So, this begs the question: How are we to take God's declaration in Revelation that "there Shall NO LONGER be any Death" in 21:4? I believe it has to do with those allowed to live within the new city Jerusalem. Also we know immortality has not been given to the denizens of the earth because they are having to eat of the leaves of the tree of life for their infirmities.

Mickiel wrote: This newness includes the Lake of Fire, it will be made New! Or its purpose will be changed. It will no longer serve as a place of sorrow and Pain, no longer. It will be changed! God is fund of changing the nature of things.

And I want to go further into the Lake of Fire.

Peace.

Tony's reply:
I believe the lake of fire continues on the new earth as the second death. There is nothing new made about the second death. It is still death no matter how new you wish to make it and grande. Those on the new earth are threatened with it:

Rev 21:8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

I don't believe all things being created anew has to do with the lake of fire.
Isa 65:17 For, behold Me creating new heavens and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor shall they come upon the heart."

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make, will stand before Me,averring is Yahweh, "So stand shall your seed and your name."

Rev 21:4 And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."
Rev 21:5 And He Who is sitting on the throne said, "Lo! New am I making all! And He is saying, "Write, for these sayings are faithful and true."

[Tony N]

My logic is:
1. If the lake of fire = second death
2. Second death = a second rehash of 'death and hades'
Then death and hades are cast into a second version of themselves.  Which would be a rather odd exercise.

Example, the 'prodigal' son:
- The fuel for the fire was his trading his inheritance with God in order to pursue riotous living.
- This was idolatry in its purest form.
- All idolators have their part in the LOF.
- The 'fire' was his reaping of what he sowed.
- Being 'lost and dead' he was in the grips of 'death and hades'
- He found life when he saw that the gods he was serving were dead idols, leading to destruction, he cast off those idols, he saw that he deserved nothing with God, and that he needed mercy, and he returned to God with a pure and contrite heart.
- Thus 'death and hades' were consumed (for him) along with his old wicked self.  It is in this sense that I see 'death and hades and him' being cast into the LOF to be consumed.
- The second death in all this was, imo, the destruction of his 'old self' which preferred to serve idols instead of God.

Judgment is often likened to fire throughout scripture, and judgment is shown to be both destructive and yet beneficial.

Hi Bob,
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you might be mixing up your stories. The prodigal son didn't go to hades or to any fire. He went to the pig farm. However, once he came to himself and went back to the father it was said of him: "This my son was dead yet now he lives."

Maybe you are trying to say he experienced a trial by fire (figuratively speaking)?

To keep the figure of the story correct with your understanding you might say:
- The slop for the pig farm was his trading his inheritance with God in order to pursue riotous living.
- This was idolatry in its purest form.
- All idolators have their part in the pig farm.
- The 'pig farm' was his reaping of what he sowed.
- Being 'lost and dead' he was in the grips of the pig farm
- He found life when he saw that the gods he was serving were dead idols, leading to the pig farm, he cast off those idols, he saw that he deserved nothing with God, and that he needed mercy, and he returned to God with a pure and contrite heart.
- Thus the pig farm was  consumed (for him) along with his old wicked self.  It is in this sense that I see the pig farm and him' being cast into the pig farm to be consumed.
- The pig farm in all this was, imo, the destruction of his 'old self' which preferred to serve idols instead of God.

Catch my drift?

[bobf]

Hi Bob,
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you might be mixing up your stories. The prodigal son didn't go to hades or to any fire. He went to the pig farm. However, once he came to himself and went back to the father it was said of him: "This my son was dead yet now he lives."

The 'pig farm' in this parable and 'fire' in many other scriptures are symbols and IMO symbols of the same thing: judgment.  So the story could be told using 'pig farm' or 'fire' or 'judgment'.  Using 'pig farm' would not have explained what I was thinking as to how 'death and hades' can be consumed in a 'lake of fire' when idolators are cast into it.

Maybe you are trying to say he experienced a trial by fire (figuratively speaking)?

'Trial by fire' usually refers to the trial of a believer's faith by fire.  The prodigal son was not having his faith tried while he was being judged since selling one's inheritance with God for idols is not faith.

[Mickiel]

I mentioned Judgement day, or what many perceive as God judging the world in the end time. I disagree with that teaching and understanding. Again Jesus in John 12:47;" And if anyone hears my sayings, and does not keep them, I do not Judge him; for I didNOT come to Judge the World, but to save the World." And you had better believe that he is reflecting his Father in this revelation, God holds no plans on Judging the World either, but on saving it.

And if anyone hears and does not obey, Jesus just outright states that he is not going to judge their disobedience. Hes not going to condemn them, or hold some kind of court on their sins in the Great white throne.  God is NOT bringing humanity to the Great white throne, or simply meaning his throne, in order to Judge them in some negative perceived manner. The Judgement has already been made, and Jesus reveals the judgement of God here, " But To Save them." Thats the Judgement God has already made.

In John 1:16;" For of his Fullness we have ALL received, and Grace upon Grace." What Judgement is going to be different than this? We ALL have already received this Judgement.

And I want to go into this.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

You see we TOTALLY misunderstand Gods Judgement. Both in the past, now, or at the Great White Throne in Revelations. It is simply amazeing how many think God will take each human individually, and bring up every single sin they have committed, and Judge each one, one by one. Its ridiculus. Its dumbfounding how we have been duped into any kind of belief.

You want to know and understand how God Judges, look at Jesus, which many refuse to do. Look at how Jesus Judges. John 8:7, " He who is without sin amoung you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Vs. 10;" Woman where are they? Did no one condemn you?

Neither do I condemn you. Just go on your way.

THIS is the way God Judges humans, just like his Son did, he will do. But judge thristy, judgemental people, who desire God to Judge like THEY Judge, don't believe in this. People judge according to the flesh. Jesus in John 8:15;" You people Judge according to the flesh, ( or according to sin), I am NOT judging anyone!"

And this is an exact representation of his Father God.

And I want to touch on that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

I want to do something here, and actually change scripture. Allow this for a moment and think with me. John 3:16;" For God so Loved the World,that BECAUSE of this Love, he has already Judged that all will be saved!" Oh God Judges alright, but his Judgement, his final word on ALL things, is based on his Love for US! THAT IS our salvation, our advantage, our destiny. Oh how fortunate we all are.

Did you know that IF God choose to Judge us BASED on our sins, he could effectively pick each one of us apart, and justifiably keep us apart from him. And sadly many of us actually desire for him to be that kind of Judge. Believe him to be like this.

No, no; thats how YOU are! Thats how you would judge. Again Jesus in John 8:16;" BUT, even IF I do Judge, my judgement is true." Jesus  is saying that even if he Judges, his Judgement is true, a clear reference to he himself actually speculating on things that he will not do, but explaining how he would do it  IF he had to. Actual proof that he willnot Judge humanity, because he is dealing in an " If", leaving the opening that he would not even do it in the first place.

Jesus does all things in his Fathers Name and will, NOT judging IS his Fathers Will.

But many cannot help but to think God will judge humanity in some kind of negative punishing manner.

Mostly because thats what THEY would do.

Peace.

[bobf]

And if anyone hears and does not obey, Jesus just outright states that he is not going to judge their disobedience.

Yet Jesus also outright states that His Word will judge our disobedience in the 'last day':

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Here are some of Christ's words:

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 18:33  Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

[Tony N]

Dear Mickiel,
I am curious what your thoughts are concerning what I wrote to you. Could you be specific as to what I wrote you?

Peace,
Tony