Tentmaker Forum

I have read many views on Fire and God, and with intrest. And so a little more on Gods Fire, a subject we seem to never tire of. Have you noticed Revelations 2:18;" And to the Angel of the church in Thyatira write; The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and feet like burnished bronze." Eyes like fire, feet like those which were burnished within a fire. Do you see this suggestion? Fire in him, and evidence that he has been in a fire. Bathed in Gods fire, and Gods Fire flowing all through him.

So the possibility is there that Gods Fire, is an integral part of eternal life and power. Even Jesus may have bathed in the Lake of Fire. And it keeps open the theory of the purpose of the Lake of fire, and how it does not have to be feared.

But let me get into some interesting ways that God uses his Fire, which can help us to understand it a little more.

In Gen. 3:24, God has driven Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden and he stationed a Cherub there to keep humans out, and this great Angel had a " Flaming Sword" which was able to guard all points of entrance to the garden, meaning it was mobile and although God stationed the Angel there, the Angel was not stationary. It covered the garden from all directions, with this flaming sword as both a weapon, and a " Covering." A sword that was given the Fire of God. So you see here that God can place his Fire " On things", and those things willNOT burn up or combust. But be empowered and given " Firearm purpose."

This Sword was enflamed with Gods Fire, but it didnot destroy the sword, but empowered it with super ability. Notice also that Gods fire can be given to an inanimate object, and I think after that is done, that object is changed forever, and is now alive.

Let me go into the burning bush and show you something.

Peace.

Hi Mickiel,

Many things in everyday life have positive and negative aspects.

Water. We can't live without it. But drink 12 liters and you die from water poisoning.

Fire. It can destroy and hurt. But also give a cozy warmth. Used for cooking. Etc.

Sun. We can't live without it. But when we get to close we die.

When your girlfriend rubs your arm it feels good. But when she does it with the force of a tank it hurts.


Perhaps God is very much like the above examples.
He's a cozy fire that feels great. He gently rubs your arm.
But when a lesson needs to be learned He turns up the heat and pressure.


:2c:

  Before I go into the burning bush, lets consider this flaming sword and what it can teach.

Gods Fire can be on something, burning, but not burning to destroy, but to empower. Now consider the lake of fire in this context. Here we have a human writer of the bible, seeing, or viewing humans inside of a lake of Gods Fire. I can understand the human, seeing themselves engulfed by this fire, and weeping and crying, as they know they are on fire. Yet consider this Angels Sword, its on Fire also. Its the purpose of the Fire, NOT the presence of the Fire, that is significant.

Gods Fire empowered the Sword, gave it abilitys beyond what the eyes can see. And I think so it is with the Lake of Fire, it certainly can empower or give a super purpose to what is engulfed by it. The Cherub had the sword in his hand, and it was said to be able to " Turn in every direction." It was multi dimensional, and obviously the Fire gave it this unusual ability. The Fire was, and is " Burning", on this sword, but not combusting and destroying, as we consider fire to do. This Fire then burns on a far different level than we know.

Two things then about Gods Fire, it is eternal, and it is very powerful. Now for Gods Fire to burn forever, can give readers of the bible their conception of an eternal burning hell. I think it is just a misconconception. The Fire in Jesus burns forever, and I think this Fire is in God, burning. I think Fire is a part of Gods " DNA", or an internal dynamic that is both eternal, and Powerful. As a human has blood flowing through them, I think Fire flows through God. Not physical Fire, no, but Spirit Fire, and more on that later.

But lets consider Moses and the Burning bush.

Peace.

In Exodus 3:2 An Angel appeared to Moses in a " Blazing Fire from the midst of a bush." The Bush WAS burning with the fire, yet the bush was not consumed. Understand that, burning, yes, but not decaying. Moses was astounded, because he physically saw this bush burning in vs. 3, but not burning up. The Fire on the bush, was Gods Fire, and it was not destroying the bush, or punishing it! The Fire made the bush Holy, as God requested that Moses remove his sandals from his feet, because even the ground the bush was on was now Holy.

Now listen, from this we can know that God considers his Fire as Holy. Now if the ground around this little bush was now considered by God to be Holy, because its burning with his Fire, how much more Holy then is the ground that the Lake of Fire is on? Here God has created a " Whole Lake " of his Fire! So the purpose of the Lake is far more BIGGER, much more significant than a sword or a bush.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2008, 07:12:22 PM
Hi Mickiel,

Many things in everyday life have positive and negative aspects.

Water. We can't live without it. But drink 12 liters and you die from water poisoning.

Fire. It can destroy and hurt. But also give a cozy warmth. Used for cooking. Etc.

Sun. We can't live without it. But when we get to close we die.

When your girlfriend rubs your arm it feels good. But when she does it with the force of a tank it hurts.


Perhaps God is very much like the above examples.
He's a cozy fire that feels great. He gently rubs your arm.
But when a lesson needs to be learned He turns up the heat and pressure.


:2c:

Greetings Whitewings,

Interesting that you mention positive and negative aspects. Is there really anything negative about God, well no. Only humanity. There then exist no negative aspect of Gods Fire. Nothing negative can come of it. Nothing negative can result from it, but negative things can be engulfed by it. I can observe things which I consider to be negative, such as a person weeping and crying. Thus, if I observe a whole race of humans being tossed into a Lake of fire, seeing them burning and crying, I can assume that to be negative, just as they will assume it themselves, seeing themselves aflame, burning, but not being consumed.

Oh its just natural to assume the negative aspects of such a sight.

It is such negative views that misinterpit the Fire of God.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

In Isaiah 33:14, " Who amoung us can live with the " Consuming Fire", who amoung us can live with continual burning?"

Listen, God is the consumming fire, and he also is continuing burning himself! Yes, that is true, God is burning continually. He is Fire, and is burning constantly. It is his will that we burn continually, eternally, like he himself!

In verse 11 God says his breath will consume you like fire. Let me say something that may shock you, but God breathes Fire, so in one sense, God is a Dragon. I know satan is called a dragon, but God is also a fire breathing being. And listen, I think God may well have wings himself, and is comfortable with fire being all around him, such as a dragon would be.

Now I know many of you may be repulsed by this, but nonetheless, I think it to be true. Now God is not a dragon where we humans know dragons to be, some weird looking creature, but a being that breathes fire and lives in the fire.

And let me get a little more into that.

Peace.

In Mark 14:62 again Jesus here gives a unique discription of his Father, he calls God " Power." Oh how significant this is. Instead of saying he will be sitting next to, and giving God a name, he calls his Father " Power." Again Jesus is being discriptive of what he thinks God is.

God is POWER! Great awesome unlimited Power!

And this is Gods Fire, great awesome Power!

Now let me ask you something. What do you think inspires God? This Great awesome being, of unlimited substances, what influences him? What moves him, and this is a key in understanding how God manages things, and reveals what his fire is.

Peace.

Again Jesus in Luke 12:49;" I have come to cast Fire on the Earth." 1John 4:14;" The Father has sent Jesus to be the Savior of the World." This Fire of God is sent to save the World, yet the world believes the fire to be damnation. Does it inspire God to plan the destruction of a world he created? God influences himself, inspires himself, leads himself on.

Jesus was sent to cast fire on the Earth. To burn it.

But what kind of burn inspires God?

Peace.

The aroma of my carnal flesh burning as a living sacrifice unto Him . .preach it bro . .I like what chya got!!

If a worm does not die and a Fire is not quenched, why does that have to be negative? It just means its eternal, it will continue on forever. If a fire cannot be put out, its just Gods fire. Everyone will be salted with fire. Which means this is preplanned unavoidable destiny! We are going to burn.

But what kind of burn?

And let me show you what God will ignite.

Peace.

Did you know that burn to God, is not the burn that you interpit. Herein is the real missed point of Gods Fire. We don't understand the ignition, and thus count it to be negative, or destructive. When a vehicle is started, ignition of the gas is being begun. The gas is being burnt, its burning, and it must burn in order for the vehicle to proceed.

Gods Fire MUST burn, it will burn, and life MUST proceed! There must be a Fire, and Gods investment in humanity is expressed, endorsed, by his creating a whole LAKE of  his Fire! This lake must burn in order for Life to proceed.

It burns within God, and must burn within him to proceed. It can't go out. Life is based on its continual proceedure. In this is the eternity of the Lake of Fire, the worm that does not die. Or the human flesh, the worm, that willnot die, but be born again. Be renewed by the fire.

This is Spiritual thermal power.

And let me get into that.

Peace.

 

Again Jesus, as he states," Where their worm does not Die", or their flesh will be transformed into eternity, and their beginning willNOT die! Our purpose willNOT die! Our destiny willnot decease. Oh yes, our flesh will burn, but we willnot be consumed. Our soul, our essense, will meet its eternal destiny. The fire willnot be put out, because its eternal, everlasting!  The vehicle will run forever, and the gas has been paied, its covered through Jesus, he has paied the cost of the endurance, the price of this will never go up.

Burn then to God, is continuance, eternity itself, everlasting existance, THAT is burn to God. Power that last forever, fire that burns forever! He is bueatiful, God, who exist and ever lives!

The fire in God, is Life itself.  Self generating Life, self existant power, self generating Power.

A flame that cannot be extinguished, THAT IS the Lake of Fire! The goal and will of God to forever exert his Power.

And let me share some scriptures that you have not attached to this.

Peace.

In Matt. 24: 22;" And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved." You know I look at this, and at how much nuclear power is being amased, and I am beginning to entertain the thought that when Jesus does come back to this earth, there may not be many people on it. I don't think its going to be as many humans alive on the earth as we would like to believe! The firepower of man is destructive. And there shall be great tribulation occuring on the earth, and I had once thought that it would be Gods Firepower doing the destroying, but humans may well destroy more humans than God during these events.

Jesus said that these times will be unlike any other, nor ever shall be like this again. Interesting statement from him, if you Consider Gods Fire as you examine his contexual meaning. The firepower of man is destructive, if God wanted to destroy humanity, he could simply let us destroy each other.  He willnot, which speaks much information.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

In Malachi 4:1" For behold the day is comming, burning " Like a furnance", and evildoers will be set ablaze, and be chaff, and nothing will be left of them." Now this is a different view of Fire, and in vs. 3, God says that HE is preparing this day, and we will walk on those ashes, or chaff.


God most certainly can, AND WILL use his fire to destroy. But that same power will be used to ressurect and renew the ashes of humanity. Romans 5:18 is the proof of that. Why would God destroy by fire, then ressurect by his Firepower, only to cause eternal suffering in his Fire?

Now what sense does that make? All of humanity are now justified to be placed into a Lake of destructive Fire? No it says Justification of LIFE to all men.

God is PREPARING this day! The Spiritual will walk on the ashes of THEIR OWN PHYSICAL BODIES!

And I want to go in on that.

Peace.

In Matt.3:11-12 John the Baptizer brings out some points of intrest. Again concerning Jesus, John said that Jesus will baptize people with the Holy Spirit AND Fire! Interesting, baptise you with Fire! A very interesting combination, Spirit and Fire, and I'll go into that later, but he seperates them as if they are two differing componants of Jesus Baptism, not  including water. In vs. 12, he says Jesus will " Throughly Clear his threshing floor" he will gather the wheat into the barn, and " Burn up the Chaff with Unquenchable Fire."

Now clearing the Threshing floor, means he is " Cleaning things up", and burning the " Chaff", means he is getting rid of waste. Useless lightweight matter, or things no longer needed. So again, the conotation of Gods Fire being related to cleaning or purification, I think is along valid perception.

The Fire of God then is used to Baptise, ( Again the comparrison to being " Immersed into" is apparent) and to cleanse.

Now, think on a new term for this next example. Just as a human can receive a blood transfusion, and have new life pumped into them, I begin to believe so it is with Gods Fire. I have said before that I believe God has Fire living and burning within him constantly. And I know that is hard to believe. So when he gives his Spirit, thats just like a transfusion, of his living substance, being transfered into you. In this manner, new life is being pumped into you.

And let me go into that.

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel
Now, think on a new term for this next example. Just as a human can receive a blood transfusion, and have new life pumped into them, I begin to believe so it is with Gods Fire. I have said before that I believe God has Fire living and burning within him constantly. And I know that is hard to believe. So when he gives his Spirit, thats just like a transfusion, of his living substance, being transfered into you. In this manner, new life is being pumped into you.

And let me go into that.

Peace.


I think I have been clear in my belief that God has not given his Fire, or his Spirit, to humans now on a perminent basics. In fact, I don't think God has ever wanted his Spirit to combine with flesh for very long anyway, because of the contridiction of terms that God knows this presents. Again Jesus in John 6:63, " The flesh profits nothing". It really doesn't, but the flesh is not geared to admit this and reconize it. People who crave Gods Spirit, do not understand that God is not giving it, " Based on them", or their desire for it, their claim of it, their lust for it. The Spirit is not given for these reasons. God gives his Spirit to burn a new creation, out of an old creation, and he does not want the two to mix that long at all.

People walking around claiming they have Gods Spirit, have set themselves up to be living examples of Gods transitionary mind, and they are really not examples of that, but they must claim that they are. Thus, must live the life they are claiming. And this IS the essence of false religion. We set ourselves up to be Gods first lady, his mate, his church, and we don't see the felony offense of such a claim, because we refuse to see that God has not set this up just yet.

Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, because God NEVER planned on humans having his Spirit for long.

And the interesting things is WHY God has not planned on that mix being exalted.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.
[/quote]

[quote author=Mickiel link=topic=

And the interesting things is WHY God has not planned on that mix being exalted.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.


In Gal. 5:17;" For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, for these are in oppisition to one another. Now why would God want a human to live in this kind of oppisition for a long extended period of time? The way of the flesh is evident, self evident. Yet we have believers in God, who walk in the flesh, and claim that they have now inherited the Kingdom of God. Displaying the same exact sins that unbelievers next door to them display, they think they are different because of their biblical knowledge.

You think God is going to exalt this common display of sin, just because one holds awareness over another? God is not going to exalt self righteousness, he is going to exalt HUMILITY! Those who submit their real selves to him, they will be exalted.

But you let a little bit of Leaven get into people, a little belief that they are converted and born again, they are Kings, and it leavens the whole way their heads perceive the Holy Scriptures of God, and their life is magnified by their own righteousness. And this is just one reason God does not want to mix his Spirit with flesh for an extended amount of time.

And let me show you other reasons why.

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel
But you let a little bit of Leaven get into people, a little belief that they are converted and born again, they are Kings, and it leavens the whole way their heads perceive the Holy Scriptures of God, and their life is magnified by their own righteousness. And this is just one reason God does not want to mix his Spirit with flesh for an extended amount of time.

And let me show you other reasons why.

Peace.
[/quote]


One would naturally think that you would put out fire with water, but that is a physical remedy, God puts out the fire of sin and evil, which are fire themselves, or spiritual things compacted within a physical world, with his Fire. Sin is a fire, evil is a fire, satan is a dragon, breathing fire of his own upon a physical world. The world is on fire, burning with sin, or satans breath, and God will put out the fire, with his fire, or his breath. So you see, we cannot figure this out with human reasonings, or human thinking. Because we cannot see and understand the true componants of this unusual mixture. We need to understand a little more on Gods fire.

And I want to turn your attention toward this kind of insight. There is an eternity to God, our God Fire, so their is eternity in Fire. We have made a serious error in thinking and believing that Gods fire manifest itself in eternal suffering, and we call it hell, not understanding that Gods Fire will burn forever, but only because God himself is Fire! There is no real difference in eternity and Fire, they are the same.

But flesh willnot, cannot , mix with this eternal reality that is God, and is Fire!

Gods fire is so hot, it will melt sin and evil. Or cleanse it, purify it. But the heat, or the Power, is not the focus of destruction, it is what it is. It gains control and transitions, or builds a change that God intends.

Listen, God is a professional, very experienced, far beyond us. Very wise and unique.

And I want to go further into his Fire, and show you how, AND why it burns. And it should ring a bell within you.

Peace.

I can see why people misinterpit Gods Fire and relate it to destruction. But remember the burning bush with Moses that was not consumed. And it was called " Holy." Here we have a burning power, that you can " See" burning, or working. Its actively burning, but not consuming. Oh but it is a consumming fire, but what is it consumming? Its consumming the physical desperation of human understanding, natural reasonings, or the legpress of sin and its effects on Gods eternity. Sin cannot mix with Gods eternity, or Gods Fire. But sin is a fire itself! Or, a combustion that was ignited by a Spirit power so great, that only that power can deal with it properly. And there is a bottomline message in that.

A demand for a rescue, a demand for a savior, a demand for a greater power than this hostile environment that we are exposed to.

Oh there is so much to learn from this.

Peace.

In John 3:12, again Jesus;"If I told you earthly things and you didnot believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" People look at Gods Fire, as if it is some form of earthly Fire. Jesus told the earth his mission, and the earth has not understood it. Again Jesus in Luke 12: 49;" I have come to cast Fire upon the earth, and how I wish it were ALREADY Kindled." Already Kindled, or already started. Jesus was excited and Spiritually Roused, he wanted the Burning to have already begun. But he himself had to be baptised with Gods Fire first. Read vs. 50.

Now listen, whatever Jesus had to go through, all of humanity must go through also, AND with the same RESULTS! Death, burial and Ressurection. AND, to be bathed with Gods Fire. Jesus DESIRES for the world to be cast with Gods Fire, because he understands what Gods Fire will do.

And I want to get into that.  Peace.

[quote author
Now listen, whatever Jesus had to go through, all of humanity must go through also, AND with the same RESULTS! Death, burial and Ressurection. AND, to be bathed with Gods Fire. Jesus DESIRES for the world to be cast with Gods Fire, because he understands what Gods Fire will do.

And I want to get into that.  Peace.
[/quote]


In Job 1:16;" While he was still speaking, another came to him and said," The Fire OF GOD fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, I alone survived." In verse 12 God gave satan the permission to breathe his Fire on Jobs animals and human servants. Yet satans reign of fire, is  related to Gods Fire here, in conjunction with it. Interesting, because satan is a Dragon, a fire breathing being, as God is.

Or they are Spirit, Spirit beings of Fire. And their Fire consumes. We need to understand the distingsion here. Fire that both consumes, or engulfs and does not consume. Dual pourpose, dual destiny, or more than just one purpose.

We have a whole world of things that Fire can do. It can " Meld", or bond things together under intense heat. Just that area alone is proof of Universal Salvation as it relates to the Lake of Fire, it can bond us together perminently with God. And this is the underlying reason why Jesus wants to cast Gods Fire on the earth, but we think of the destruction potential and start believing in the more damining aspect of Fire.

God has chosen to Breathe, or to melt our salvation within our destiny. Causing an unbreakable seal.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel linkIn Job 1:16;" While he was still speaking, another came to him and said," The Fire OF GOD fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, I alone survived." [/quote]

Now notice here, " I alone survived." I alone have escaped. Look at the specifics here, the accuracy, the pinpointing of Power. Everythingelse can be predestined to be consumed, but one thing can be allowed to survive. So Gods Fire is a controled and accurate Fire , it is NOT Wild! Not aimless. And this is significant in determining the nature of the Lake of Fire, which is described in terms  that I think defines it as eternally aimless and lacking purpose and specifics, I disagree with that.

I think a whole group of humans can be thrown within it, but God still get individual results from it in each seperate human. Gods Fire is focused, and unique, but traditional hell fire stories look to generalize it, a serious error in comprehension. Recall the burning bush, it combust, but not take away from the natural physical bush. The natural physical bush was NOT effected to deteriation, it didnot decay, but it burned. And this IS the nature of the Lake of Fire, the misunderstood nature.

And I want to get into that. Because the Lake of Fire, is Gods Fire. But satan is a dragon of Fire, so what will him being thrown into Fire, do to him? And I think this is of intrest.

Peace.

Now if you choose to think on this, Gods Fire, then you must burn away ALL natural instincts that look to determine your own preconcieved notions. Recall the influence of the old saying of " Making your bed in hell", and think in terms of God " Putting to rest", all the things of humanity in one lump sum. Or one final resting place, combined with one emense " Birthing Place", and there we have the true nature of the Lake of Fire. It BOTH consumes, and destroys, AND does not destroy, because of its INDIVIDUAL charactheristics, or pinpointed destiny.

Thus, BOTH  demons and humans can be engulfed by it, but there still be different destiny involved. And we shouldnot calculate the same destiny, or assume that it burns the same for both human and demonic, just because they share its location.  And let me steer you into something new concerning that.

Peace.

.  And let me steer you into something new concerning that.

Peace.
[/quote]

John 3:16, For God so Loved the World that whoever believes in him shall not perish. The demons do not believe in God, this reference is unto them, and them alone, the Fire of God is specific, focused, targeted and predestined. The perishing is referenced to demons alone, and only them.  Yet they are within the same Lake of Fire as humans.

Listen, its back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, or the Lake of Fire as concerning the true element of the mixture of Fire and Flesh! Its planted. Its amphlified! Its predestined, its going to be. Do you see this, this predestined swim with satan? Invitation only!

Meaning. Real meaning.

satan is a being of fire, to throw him within Gods fire, and state its his eternal destiny, means he will cease to exist eternally. Its not our problem , at this junture, its all about destiny. I am not making this up, satan cannot take on God, but because he is a dragon of fire, he must lay within a bed of Gods Fire.

There is no chance for satan and demons to survive, but their energy, their essence, is destined to be delivered to the same humans within the lake of Fire.

And let me show that.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on September 18, 2008, 05:08:40 AM

John 3:16, For God so Loved the World that whoever believes in him shall not perish. The demons do not believe in God, this reference is unto them, and them alone, the Fire of God is specific, focused, targeted and predestined. The perishing is referenced to demons alone, and only them.  Yet they are within the same Lake of Fire as humans.

You might explain in a bit more detail where you say the demons do not believe in God.  James 2:19 indicates belief.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood link=

You might explain in a bit more detail where you say the demons do not believe in God.  James 2:19 indicates belief.

/quote]

It indicates that they believe there is one God, or that God exist, but they do not believe what God believes. Vs 19; " You believe God is One, you do well, the demons also believe and shudder", or they believe in one God, but this in no manner indicates that they believe in Gods ways and means. They fear God for his strength, but their fear does not equate into dedication to his reforms. Or belief in his righteousness. They do not believe in him, or they do not submit to him.

They acknowledge him, but do not agree with him.

Peace.

And let me add to this. God  didNOT create demons to believe in him, they were created to oppose, not believe. Belief in one sense, yes, but moreso deregulation, a decomposing, or the end.

If you see yourself ending, or being wiped  out, what then does your belief really mean?

Peace

Quote from: Mickiel on September 18, 2008, 06:18:59 AM


And let me add to this. God  didNOT create demons to believe in him, they were created to oppose, not believe. Belief in one sense, yes, but moreso deregulation, a decomposing, or the end.

If you see yourself ending, or being wiped  out, what then does your belief really mean?

Peace

I'm not disagreeing on the purpose that God created the demons for.  But I also see a depiction in scripture that says they may know more about their purpose then we might think.   I also see a respect that Jesus has for them that isn't readily taught.


In Matthew we have the man being demonized and the demons state this.

Mt 8:29 And lo! they cry, saying,  "What is it to us and to Thee, Son of God! Didst Thou come here to torment us before the season?"

They know whats going to happen, and it isn't destruction.  The Greek literal says to ordealize and of course the defintion of that greek word includes torture and the CLV uses the word torment.  Concerning the context of Gods correction torment is a good word.  I do not believe it will be torture as we might think should be happening to a demon.

It is not taught, so it is rarely noticed that Jesus had mercy on the demons.  Now why have mercy on something your going to eventually torture or destroy?

What I see here is fascinating.

Mt 8:31 Now the demons entreated Him, saying,  "If You are casting us out, dispatch us into the herd of hogs."



Why is this fascinating?   Because Jesus honors the demons request.   It's just amazing to see that Jesus understands the purpose of these creatures and the Father created them too.

An interesting observation you make.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood link=topic=3254.msg34848#msg34848 date/quote]


I'm not disagreeing on the purpose that God created the demons for.  But I also see a depiction in scripture that says they may know more about their purpose then we might think.   I also see a respect that Jesus has for them that isn't readily taught.


In Matthew we have the man being demonized and the demons state this.

Mt 8:29 And lo! they cry, saying,  "What is it to us and to Thee, Son of God! Didst Thou come here to torment us before the season?"

They know whats going to happen, and it isn't destruction.  The Greek literal says to ordealize and of course the defintion of that greek word includes torture and the CLV uses the word torment.  Concerning the context of Gods correction torment is a good word.  I do not believe it will be torture as we might think should be happening to a demon.

It is not taught, so it is rarely noticed that Jesus had mercy on the demons.  Now why have mercy on something your going to eventually torture or destroy?

Well I would disagree that Jesus had respect for demons, but I would agree that he had mercy on them. Still, I am curious, just what about demons do you think is worth respecting? Or even still, if you suggest that Jesus respected them, then what about them did he respect? They were asking Jesus was he going to torment them, before their time of torment was to come. Jesus showed respect for his Father Gods timetable, not the demons.

The fact of the matter is why punish them, before their time of being punished has come. This is what Jesus agree to, and it was the demons bargaining chip, knowing that Jesus follows his Fathers will to perfection. To suggest that Jesus did to them what he did, was out of respect for them, is in error.

The demons are doomed. They know it, God knows it and Jesus knows it. There is nothing we can do about it. They willnot continue. Many of Gods creations willnot continue. Roaches, rats, leaches, slugs, the list is endless, they willnot continue, no matter how our hearts bleed for them.

And no matter how certain people hope for the salvation of demons, God looks at them, the same way he looks at all creatures destined to be eliminated, they just will have lived out their purpose, and simply willnot continue.

Peace.

Quote
Still, I am curious, just what about demons do you think is worth respecting?

If our  bleeding heart for something doesn't matter, then neither does our hard heart towards them.  Part of understand how Gods love works is understanding that no matter how evil we can call something,  God loves the creature that is evil. 

Why honor the demons request to be cast out to a certain place?   That would be a possible factor of respect.  Why not spite the demons and send them somewhere else rather than  complying with their request?

What is worth respecting is their being, that fact that they are a creation of God,  not what they do.   

What the demons do will be destroyed in the same way our works that are of the flesh will be, but all of Gods creation will be subject to hope, by God.


If any of Gods creation will be totally destroyed, then this verse cannot be true.   Freedom is not total destruction.



Romans 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood link

Romans 8:21color=red]that the creation itself, also[/color], shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.[/color]

Demons are not children of God. It is no strange thing to me that some believe in the salvation of demons, people believe the Kingdom is here now, and that they are born again now, these beliefs will give the new birth to themselves, as well as to demons. They take the scriptures by violence, and violently interpit it to fit their own dreams.

Matt. 8:29:" And they cried out, What do we have to do with you, Son of God? Nothing, absolutely nothing! Jesus was not sent to save demons, he never was instructed by God to save them, he never stated, nor has God stated, that Jesus died for demons. But certain humans have stated what God has not, and it is this gall that seeks to add too and take away from scripture.

" Have you come to torment us before the time?" A time of torment is destined for demons, no bleeding heart, scripture changing human can change demonic destiny. The times that God has set, were set and sealed by him, nothing, nothing can change that.

Anyhow, I hold no intrest in the salvation of demons, or roaches, or rats, or slugs, or maggots, or worms, or warthogs, or bats, or every insect God has created. I am not asking God to give eternal life to every bee and wasp he has created. I am not expecting God to give morality to beings he has not chosen too. It was he who molded and shaped the demons, being the potter that he is. He made them for destruction, and no human in their right mind would expect to tell God what to do with them.

But now, thats the real issue, who is in their right mind? Giving salvation to beings that God has not offered it to, is evidence of not being in accordance with the mind of Christ.

Peace.

Mickiel,

I gave my perspective of scripture, what you can point at me personally may or may not be true.

If I am wrong, so be it,  but my personal character does not change scripture and if you are more righteous than me, it does not make your words more true.

Your words are how you see things,  and that is fine,  I have no interest in implying what your character might be simply because I do not agree with you 100%.

Gods creation will be freed as the verse in romans states,  freedom is not total destruction.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on September 19, 2008, 10:34:51 PM

Mickiel,

I gave my perspective of scripture, what you can point at me personally may or may not be true.

If I am wrong, so be it,  but my personal character does not change scripture and if you are more righteous than me, it does not make your words more true.

Your words are how you see things,  and that is fine,  I have no interest in implying what your character might be simply because I do not agree with you 100%.

Gods creation will be freed as the verse in romans states,  freedom is not total destruction.

I have not pointed anything out about you personally, nor have I said anything about your characther, I am not interested in neither. I do not need or use others personalitys to make any points. God will destroy many things, this earth we stand on is amoung that fate.

People may not understand the destruction, but its not based on their understanding or agreement.

Peace.

I can understand the " Way of the Human", but when this way is contrasted with God, then Isaiah 44:25 comes into reality; The Omens of boasters will fail, wise men will draw back, their knowledge will be turned into the foolishness that it really is, and God will confirm the word of his servant. God will make fools out of many who seek to present themselves as being discerners of his word. But God confirms his own word.

Notice Isaiah 45:3;" I will give you the " Treasures of Darkness". Remember I told you that I will show where God will give to humans, the Power that the Darkness has hoarded to themselves. When you perform Gods will, the Power of God is given to you. The Power of Fire is given to you. All the treasures of " The Darkness", will be taken from the Darkness and given to you. And this is the New Knowledge I promised to share with you.

And I want to go into " The Treasures of the Darkness", what that is, and how it will be given to a human. And this is New Knowledge, eye opening and pivital, it could turn you.

Peace.

When Adam and Eve ate of the tree, what did that do to them, and why? Consider this; did the fruit itself contain knowledge, and thus impart the knowledge to the eater? Or did the fruit simply open the mind of the eater, to knowledge that was already availible? Knowledge that was not within the fruit itself, but the fruit was a " Pivot Point", or a " Door", an opening, or an inspiration of sorts.

There is no knowledge within a fruit, why would God put knowledge within a fruit on a tree? No, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is an " Opening of conscious Awareness", of knowledge that existed OUTSIDE of the Tree! Adam and Eve didnot ingest Knowledge by eating, their conscious awareness was " Changed", and ONLY Fire can cause Change! The tree was a tree of FIRE, two kinds of dragon fire, two kinds of burning.

Just as the burning bush was burning with Fire, so was , and IS, the Bigger bush of burning, the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil! Fire does not take a shortcut, it burns in all directions. Knowledge is the same, it goes both ways, the way of the human and the way of God, its all consuming. Destined to meet at all points. And then become one.

And not change its path, but burn the old path, and from the destruction, lay a new ground.

And I want to go into Gods Fire, and satans Fire, as they contrast the tree in the garden. AS they combine, combust, join in a destiny so great, that it is just hard to believe, and one will complettely wipe out the other. NOT change the other, but destroy it complettely.

Peace.

And this IS the Fire Jesus spoke of that he wished, or prayed, was already kindled, or started. NOt the Fire of change, but total destruction. Total baptism, total elimination of a " Power", a reality, a way of Life that is evil. And this is what demons represent, this way, this knowledge of evil. Not to be changed, but eliminated. And this is a part of God that is to be feared, his tendency  to total eliminate! Oh yes, he created it, but fear him who is able to KILL both body and soul, or the complette cycle of a Lifeforce! A Life he has created.

He can give life to religions, to doctrines, to history, to beliefs and to customs, and then totally destroy them.

He is truly God! Truly decisive, able to begin and to end. Begin and End, think on that. Create and eliminate, build and destroy. Some may seek to undermind his way of " Ending", or destroying. Such thinking will diminish in time.

In our human experience, we are being armed with evil, effected by its power, blending with it, arroused by it. This is no WASTE of time. It IS doing something to us!

It IS bearing a fruit, a benefit, a result, or it would never be. And we will benefit from evils destruction. Not evils change, but its elimination. And I want to touch on that.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on September 20, 2008, 02:28:59 AM
I have not pointed anything out about you personally, nor have I said anything about your characther, I am not interested in neither. I do not need or use others personalitys to make any points.

LOL,  of course not you sly devil.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood link
/quote]

LOL,  of course not you sly devil.

I am not sly, and hope I am not a devil. Yet what I am, is not defined by others, but by God himself. I don't know what God thinks about me, so no human can then know. The blaze is already burning, the Fire of God still " Looting Humanity", still planting seeds.

God gave up his own body, his own essence, his own self extension. PLacing us all in debt, God has calculated the end result. Its really Jesus man, he is that towering Isosolis tower.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on September 23, 2008, 09:00:23 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood link
/quote]

LOL,  of course not you sly devil.

I am not sly, and hope I am not a devil. Yet what I am, is not defined by others, but by God himself. I don't know what God thinks about me, so no human can then know. The blaze is already burning, the Fire of God still " Looting Humanity", still planting seeds.

God gave up his own body, his own essence, his own self extension. PLacing us all in debt, God has calculated the end result. Its really Jesus man, he is that towering Isosolis tower.

Peace.

Right, then thinking who has the mind of Christ or not is not up to you,  well said.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood l


Right, then thinking who has the mind of Christ or not is not up to you,  well said.

Exactly, and those who are now predicting what God thinks about them, to the degree of announcing they are born again and have the kingdom within them, are telling us what God thinks about them, as if they perfectly know. Assuming that their lives perfectly reflect the mind of Christ, the perfection is seriously watered down to earths deceptive emperors robe, as they wear it out with the reputation of their sinful lives. And Christ muist be killed a thousand times over to cover their deceptive modes of self liberation.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on September 20, 2008, 08:37:13 AM


When Adam and Eve ate of the tree, what did that do to them, and why? Consider this; did the fruit itself contain knowledge, and thus impart the knowledge to the eater? Or did the fruit simply open the mind of the eater, to knowledge that was already availible? Knowledge that was not within the fruit itself, but the fruit was a " Pivot Point", or a " Door", an opening, or an inspiration of sorts.

There is no knowledge within a fruit, why would God put knowledge within a fruit on a tree? No, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is an " Opening of conscious Awareness", of knowledge that existed OUTSIDE of the Tree! Adam and Eve didnot ingest Knowledge by eating, their conscious awareness was " Changed", and ONLY Fire can cause Change! The tree was a tree of FIRE, two kinds of dragon fire, two kinds of burning.

Just as the burning bush was burning with Fire, so was , and IS, the Bigger bush of burning, the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil! Fire does not take a shortcut, it burns in all directions. Knowledge is the same, it goes both ways, the way of the human and the way of God, its all consuming. Destined to meet at all points. And then become one.

And not change its path, but burn the old path, and from the destruction, lay a new ground.

And I want to go into Gods Fire, and satans Fire, as they contrast the tree in the garden. AS they combine, combust, join in a destiny so great, that it is just hard to believe, and one will complettely wipe out the other. NOT change the other, but destroy it complettely.

Peace.

If this tree of knowledge is a consuming fire that you claim it to be . . how is it this knowledge they obtained only illuminated their nakedness?  Why did it not illuminate the glory, the love, the presence and purpose of God to them?  I think there indeed is a tree of fire . . .but you're identifying the fire with the wrong tree.

Hi Everyone,

I always thought the tree of knowledge of good and evil was law and grace, or grace and law I should say. Good being grace and evil being law or works.

It doesn't say anything about fire associated with this tree.

CHB

Well perhaps I shouldnot have went into this, but you know, whats in you will have to come out sooner or later. In Rev. 4:5;" And from the throne proceed flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven Lamps of Fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." These fires were burning, are burning, but they only consume when God so pleases, they are not consuming his throne. But they are his Power, his landmark, so to speak, his atmosphere, his annointing, his imprint on reality. His both inward and outward reality, its Gods Fire.

So ALL things are actually based on Gods Fire, even the Knowledge of Good and Evil are based on Gods Fire. And they burn, or work out his will. They either consume, or they burn, or stay active in accordance with his will. Once he " Sets his Will", that means he has started his Fire, and the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, was God " Setting Aflame his Fire", and it will either work on man, or consume man. Adam and Eve were not designed to illuminate Gods glory, or his Love or his Purpose for humanity, only to breed humanity. Jesus was designed to illuminate Gods Love and purpose.

The earth was designed to one day be illuminated with Gods Fire, as was humanity.

And I want to get into that, but not to confuse any of you, but illuminate your thinking on this. And listen, much of my thinking didnot want to change, so God had to burn me, my mind, and the change came. I would rather change without the burn, but I simply do not know how to change myself, my understanding, so I am destined to burn, weather I like it or not. Dealing with God is an appointment with Fire. But it is " Holy Fire", unseen and not out to destroy us. But it will destroy the thinking we are accoustomed to in our comfort.

And each of us have an appointment with that. Hes just going to burn us, and gut out these things we believe to be true.

Peace.

Now consider this: In Gods Kingdom, there will be no need for the Sun  anymore. Rev. 22:5, " The Lord God shall " Illumine",  or Light up everything. This is actually dual in meaning, or triple. God will, or simply be, the Fire of the Universe. The Power that out sources all things. AND, he will Enlighten everyone, or make clear our understanding, which IS the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God will decorate the Universe with his Fire, baptise it with his blessings. And do this to our minds.

Illuminance is intellectual  or Spiritual enlightenment. And Jesus is his Illuminant, not Adam or Eve. We cannot elevate Adam or Eve, or illuminate them into areas they were not designed to be.

Peace.

You haven't addressed my question.  "If" the tree of knowledge is a consuming fire, then why could Adam and Eve only see their own nakedness?

You're saying all the right things, but about the wrong tree.  If this tree is what you say it is, then why was Adam instructed "not" to partake of it?  Jesus himself said we must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood, so that's telling me that we "are" to consume God as he consumes us.  But this tree of knowledge was to be off limits. 

For me, those who live in this tree are not really seeing godliness versus evil . .but they are walking in a world of judgment.  To know what is right versus what is wrong is walking according to your own understanding.  Romans states that law is "the knowledge" of sin.  It's focusing on what's right with some people and wrong with others.  We become judges.  We establish laws of our own.  All with good intentions of course.  For example, you've dug a hole in your back yard, and you don't want anyone to fall in it, so you make an announcement to your family "stay out of the back yard".  That is a law that you want your family to adhere to.  There's no ill intentions with it, you just want the best for your family so you made this rule to keep them safe.

Now, the problem comes when someone enters your back yard.  It's the same back yard.  Nothing has happened or changed, but now, because of the law you created to keep them safe, they've broken it by entering in the back yard and as a result, you're now motivated to confront them . . .

Religion has done the same thing.  We've made up rules and regulations, all with the best of intentions, and no one has really done anything wrong, other than break our laws of religion.  And because we've chosen these laws . .things like . . .don't swear, don't steal, don't do drugs . . .the list is endless . . but does doing any "one" of those things actually affect my righteousness?  Living in the tree of knowledge is a daunting life really.  We become law enforcement rather that freedom walkers. 

Like I said, for me, your thoughts on fire are great, but I just see this in the tree of life and it's the tree of knowledge that is what get's consumed.  I am crucified with Christ, as Paul says.  My mind must be laid aside so that I can let Christ find a place in me to lay his head.  (foxes have holes, birds have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head)

Quote from: Nathan on September 23, 2008, 11:38:07 PM
You haven't addressed my question.  "If" the tree of knowledge is a consuming fire, then why could Adam and Eve only see their own nakedness?

Because it burned their eyes inside out. Cooked their sight, and introduced them to evil. Bonked their brains and they had children after this occured. And the children have been asking questions ever since, so you tell me how to address their questions, there are no answers that these children can see, and none that you will see.

Your questions are not for me, I cannot open what is closed, and don't try all that much. But I am sure someone here can help you, such is not my calling, I am not for opening the minds of others, because my mind is closed itself, I don't even rightly understand your confusion or your questions. I have given the answers, but they are for me and not for you. I can see the answer, yet you cannot. So I am not for you, and you not for me.

Better to ask those who understand you. I simply cannot.

Peace.

Let me say something about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, it is a tree of " Cost." It bears consequences, it is not liberty. Adam and Eve didnot eat from it freely, it cost them something. Gen. 2:16" From any tree of the garden you may eat freely." But from this tree, there is no freedom in eating from it, there will be a price. That price cost us our purity, our pain, our understanding, our Lord curcified. It released the Fire consuming.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel


. It released the Fire consuming.

Peace.
/quote]

Notice Rev.20:9, " And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and Fire came down from heaven and devoured them." Again, this is the Fire Consuming, it came from God. It was released to destroy, no matter who does not understand that God will destroy his creations. This is God, this Fire that destroys, it is death, first or second, it does not matter. It is knowledge that has a cost, which leads to Gods Gift of Life that is without cost. It leads to the Fire that does not consume.

I kind of notice something about God, who has created a whole Lake of his Fire, then he contrast it with a whole River of the Water of Life. In Rev. 22:1, the Water is comming FROM the Throne of God. The Same throne that has 7 different types of Fire IN IT, now releases a Holy Water, clear as crystal, and will heal the nations , or groups of the races of men.

In my minds eye, this is an awesome sight to behold. Gods Fire, and Gods Water, both erupting from him, and consuming everything.

Oh what a being God is!

And I want to go into this unusual contrast. Very simular to the contrast of Good and Evil. Two oppisite  things, comming from God.

Peace.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on September 24, 2008, 03:38:09 AM

Quote from: Mickiel


. It released the Fire consuming.

Peace.
/quote]



I have mentioned before that I see aspects of God that most defintely infer that he has Dragon like tendecys himself. Notice Psalms 29:7;" The Voice of the Lord hews out Flames of Fire." I mean, good greif, can you see the obivous reference here? God has Fire all around his throne, and not only that, but Seven different kinds of Fire at that. Talk about a Dragon lair. God can open his mouth and Fire can come out, because it is already obviously within him. So although some are not ready to consume this knowledge, I think God is a certain type of Dragon himself. And may well look like one, having wings and other Dragon like qualitys, just NOT what humans picture as what a Dragon looks like.

One of the reasons that I think no human could look at God and Live, is that just the sight of him, without supernatural intervention on the human mind, would frighten the human into a death shock! They might expect God to look more human than he really does. I think God has certain human feratures, but may well have Dragon like features, because thats part of what he is, a unique mixture of many things.

And some of those things, may well be frightening. Look at Ezek. 10:1-10. Notice how the Cherubim had " Coals of Fire between them", and one could hear even the " Sound of the Cherubim's Wings", like a mighty wind, and this then is compared to Gods Voice when he chooses to Speak. A Loud powerful sound, not this still quiet voice that some think God has. I personally don't believe that God wisphers when he Speaks. I think hes just too Powerful to speak in a whisper, but I am sure he can silence his tone to lower degrees, but not a whispher. Hes just too much for that. And we underestimate him greatly in our deductions.

The court was FILLED with the Brightness of the Lord. God CANNOT enter into ANY area without TOTALLY encompassing everything in that area. And we need to understand this. When God decides to totally enter into a human, he will TOTALLY encompass that human! But he will first train that human to hear him. Just like we must be prepared to see him, changed in our vision and understanding to see him, to see Truth.

And I want to go into Change and Fire, because they are related.

You ever notice that you seem to have to suffer, in order for change to come? I CERTAINLY don't like that, but it is so.

Peace.

Now if you read Ezekiel the first chapter, it is a description of the Glory of the Lord, just look at the being this describes; Ezekiel was shown a most mysterious being. It came from the " North", which the bible often refers to as the direction that God comes from. A Great cloud in vs.4, with Fire flashing forth CONTINUALLY! Again the conotation of a dragon like being. A Bright Light around it. And in " Its Mist", something glowing. The being resembled a human form, or it had legs and arms and a torso, but  more than one head. But each head had four faces. It had legs and feet like a calfs hoof, that gleamed like bronze, which John saw Jesus feet as looking in Revelation.

It had four wings. Under their wings were human hands, not birdlike claws. The wings touched one another, so they can retrack. All four faces were human, were faces of a Lion,  all four had the face of a bull, and a face of an Egale. Multiple faces, which denotes multiple minds, and more than one consciousness. Many consciousness. Many minds.

Vs.13, in the mist of the LIVING beings there was something BURNING like coals of Fire, like torches darting back and forth. The Fire was bright, and Lightning was flashing from the Fire. Listen, this is so much like Gods throne, it should begin to become obvious to your comprehension. God could very well be like this being, look like this being. It is NOT out of the picture, and I personally believe God is either exactly like this, or very simular to it.

I won't go further into the chapter, but read it and see for yourself. I think Fire to God, is what blood is to us. Its just in him. And when God wants to burn something, its actually him breathing on it. And Jesus " Breathed the Holy Spirit" onto his disciples. So the connotation of being " Salted with Fire", or even the Lake of Fire, can truly take on new meaning.

A meaning of change, but change associated with pain, from the burn.

And I want to look into that.

Peace.

Can you even imagine what it would be like for any of us to actually look upon a being of this caliber? Talk about being scared to death, good greif man, this thing is very real. Multiple heads and faces, faces of Lions and bulls and egales. Wings and great flashing Fire! But ALWAYS this presence of Fire! Brillant bright Fire. BURNING Fire, not inactive Fire, continous burning Fire, OR, the Fire that never is Quenched!

Listen, the Fire that never is Quenched, means that God can never die! It just really means Eternity that is God! Fire that is God, and this knowledge IS the Tree of Good and Evil! Or a Fire that God set, or breathed, or planted. And Gods Fire can either consume, or just burn, and we have to begin to understand that difference.

Fire can be a trial, or an experience that burns you, but does not consume you. It could hurt you, but not destroy you. Conversely, it can destroy parts of you, but continually  burn other parts of you, and not consume those parts.

So if God baptises you with his Fire, or breathes on you, its just going to be an experience of change.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

And what better experience than personal. God burns within me a rage, I ask for righteousness, pure obedience, yet he gives me the weakness. This weakness is the God I know. My heart desires pureness, wholesome understanding, yet he gives me weakness. And insight to the weakness, the Fire. My lungs burn with this weakness. I am consumed. My death presented to me.

Yet I am compelled to speak on things I do not understand. I experenice it, but yet do not agree with my personal experience of it, I want purness of righteousness.

The Fire of God burns now! It gets real with you. Bares you. Pops open your mind and slays you.

Renders all knowledge meaningless.

And from this meaningless, will come the future of light.

Peace.

A little more then on Gods Fire.

Gods Fire is a reality, forming and shapeing anything. He himself is shaped of Fire. Look at 2 Kings 2:11;" Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of Fire and Horses of Fire which seperated the two of them, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."

You get to Heaven through Fire, but notice the Fire takes all kinds of shapes and forms, manipulating matter and reality itself, becomming Gods will on Fire. Forming a Chariot, a Horse, but still is Fire from God, yet the Fire becomes somethingelse, morphed into its own unique reality that God sees for its moment.

And this is how God gets into your mind, he burns a thought. That thought can become a reality, or just simmer into your life slowly.

But its Fire burning. Fire shut up within you, and you just can't contain it.

And I want to continue on this remarkable Fire.

Peace.

What is frightening about God, or Fire, is the tendency it has to hurt and destroy. Although much Good can come from it, so then can what we perceive as Evil. Jeremiah 21:12;" That my wrath may NOT go forth like Fire, and burn with none to extinguish it."

So you see, If God wants the Fire to burn forever, there is absolutely nothing anyone could do about it! Only he could put its tendency to punish out. But he uses it to create, to substain, to punish or to destroy. He does everything with it.

Because he is the Great unknown Dragon.


And we will bow before him in Great Awe!

This Majestic Being of Fire.

Peace.

The Great Dragon God, such terms many cannot even perceive as of now, they think God is human. Psalms 18:8;" Smoke went up out of his nostrils, and Fire from his Mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it."

You may think this is symbolism, but it is far more than that.

The Great Dragon is comming, and he will look nothing like you would imagine.

His Heart is Fire, and it continually Burns. People think they know God. They don't know God, they don't comprehend the Dragon of Fire. There vision of God is nothing like him.

God burns and swells in flame and takes awesome flight, soars in an awe inspiring movement, and fills the atmosphere with his Power. Erupting in Space, his Power to create and substain forever. Wings of Glory, Power unmatched. The ultimate beginning, the Power that is.

Peace.

Isaiah 66:15;" For behold, The Lord will come IN Fire!" In Fire, ON Fire, set ablaze himself!

Listen, God exist IN Fire. Its ALWAYS with him, because it IS him! The Spirit Torch. The Great Dragon of Old!

Now let me go into why satan is called a Great Dragon, and how this relates to the Spirit world, and contrast Gods creation of Fire and its ability to hurt or heal and help.

Peace.

In Rev.12:9, satan is called the Great Dragon, the serpent of Old. And this is an issue of, in human understanding, matter- anti matter, or contrast that are as they are. One exist, to contrast the other, but in direct oppisite. One Dragon exist, because another first existed. But one is " Anti", and this is the reality of the anti christ. Anti, means opposed, oppisition that relates directly to the position, although they are different in nature. But their is a relation. One exist in immunization which counteract the toxins of the other. One infects, the other counteracts the toxin. This is the true nature and reality of good and evil. As God designed it.

The Great God, or Great Dragon, created another Dragon to counteract him, or be in oppisition. Both Dragons of Old, both Great, but both in oppisition to each other. This is how Great the Darkness is, it had to be great enough to counteract God himself, so it had to be two things; Great, and a Dragon of Old, or it couldnot possibily counteract. The Bacteria had to be great enough to demand diloution, but not inhibit its own destruction. And this is why satan was destined to be a great dragon, to counteract another great dragon.

And I want to go into that.  Peace.

Look closer at Rev. 12:9, notice the listed componants of satan. He is Great. He is a Dragon. He is Old. He deceives the WHOLE World! Contrasting that, God is also Great. He is a Dragon. He is Old, and he will Save the WHOLE World!. Each exact contrast, or matter-anti-matter, both unique, both awesome, both dealing in Fire! AND, dealing OUT Fire! The strength of the Lake of Fire has been attributed to satans success, NOT Gods, which is an error in contrast. The Power of this eternal hell fire, has been attributed to the success of satan, and not God. Not God, or anti God, opposed to God, but related to God. The reason why the hell doctrine is so powerful of an unfluence, is because of the bilateral power afforded to satan, from Gods own demand. It just had to be.

Dealing with this level of power, this level of oppisition, both on the same tree, or both from the same orgin, both had to be ABLE to counteract, or hold up to each other, or there is no oppisition, it would be a wash out, if one outweighed the other at all times. So a " BALANCE" was  given. Notice Rev. 6:5, a black horse and the rider had scales in his hands. A pair of them, or more than one opition to weigh. More ability to measure, or deceive. Ability to confuse religions, or the first seal. Ability to start war, or the second seal. To unleash famine, or the third seal, and cause death, the fourth seal. And so on, study all the seals, or the realitys of power given to the dragon. And how the dragon has used this power, used it because it should use it.

The power is great, alluring and sedcuctive, mesmerising and blinding. Charged to the negative, and I think satan is Gods Power charged to the negative.

And let me go into that interesting aspect.

Peace.

God himself weaved the world into being, through Christ, his intermediate, or his active hand of deliverance. Jesus had to deliver, or create, what God demands. There was no choice here, it had to be! He was the FIRSTBORN, or the first being God looked to for deliverence, of both his Holy Will, and predestined actions! Christ IS the cornerstone, on him is invested the true Power of God! Which is WHY Jesus IS a being of MANY very sad realitys! Sad on one end, Joyful on another. Invested in him is many sorrows, much pain and heartbreak, because it had to be. On his shoulders was invested this reality of both worlds. Deadly consequence, Joyful results. He had to go into both worlds, death and Life as well. He the first, and why WE must travel through it as well. ALL must be tainted, or breathed on, with this Fire! All must enter into the Lake, and swim.

Looking on it in this Light, let me go into the Lake of Fire, just a little more.

Peace.

Psalms 50:3;"May our God come and not keep silent. Fire devours before him, and it is tempestuous around him." Tempestuous, or meaning that the Fire belongs to God, or even resembles him. Very stormy and passionate, very intense, but tuned and under perfect control. Tempered temperature.

I have read where someone here on this site stated that God is the Lake of Fire, oh how true that Is. I defintely agree with that. Although I disagree publically with the notion that there are people right now indubed with his Holy Spirit Fire, because they do not resemble God, only claim to, I believe he can turn up the tempterture with a human, take them to another level. There is NO such thing as another level, that does not show the indications of it. No such creature, it will reflect what is burning within. It will NOT be the same.

Once you belong to this baptism, you WILL resemble God! NO human resembles God! Its complettely out of the question in this physical world. It is impossible to hold physical resemblance with God, flesh cannot, willnot resemble God! And willnot inherit the Kingdom now within, you simply cannot be a human who has the Kingdom within. You do not know what you are believing about Gods fire. So your belief has been burnt by the other dragon, he who masquerades as god. The same dragon who has the most popular influence concerning the Lake of Fire.

And I want to touch on that.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 07, 2008, 05:18:42 PM

I have read where someone here on this site stated that God is the Lake of Fire, oh how true that Is. I defintely agree with that.

Hi Mickiel,
Do you believe that God is death? I'm not asking you if God brings death to the old humanity but, Is God death.

Also, if the lake of fire is for wrongs done, why would they be cast into God? And if God is the lake of fire, then it must be that all those in the New City Jerusalem, the apostles and and all the nations who are not in the lake of fire must find themselves outside of God.

Quote from: Tony N on October 07, 2008, 05:38:36 PM

Quote from: Mickiel on October 07, 2008, 05:18:42 PM

I have read where someone here on this site stated that God is the Lake of Fire, oh how true that Is. I defintely agree with that.

Hi Mickiel,
Do you believe that God is death? I'm not asking you if God brings death to the old humanity but, Is God death.

Also, if the lake of fire is for wrongs done, why would they be cast into God? And if God is the lake of fire, then it must be that all those in the New City Jerusalem, the apostles and and all the nations who are not in the lake of fire must find themselves outside of God.

That's something that I never felt like I got a very good, Biblical, answer on or to on that Lake of Fire thread that got a lot of attention a while back.  If the last enemy to be destroyed is death, and the Lake of Fire is the second death, then where's the room for the over-romanticization in saying that God is the Lake of Fire?  Is God the last enemy that shall be put under foot?  Is God what's been separating lost souls from God, from godliness, from goodness, from holiness, from righteousness, from peace, and from joy?  God is fire, and being a Pentecostal/Charismatic, I've experienced first hand His manifestation of Himself as fire, but there's a distinction in the Scriptures between God being a fire and God being our life and God's Written Word being our life, and the Lake of Fire and Brimstone which is the Second Death.  I can work with the Lake of Fire having some, much, most, or all application in this life because I'm no longer strictly a futurist in my understanding of prophecy with no wiggle room after having spent a few months totally binging on the book of Revelation, but to me there's a distinct difference between anything that's even remotely labeled "death" and God.

Excellent points Martin.

The question which needs to be asked is this:
What is literal and what is a figure of speech?

"God is spirit . . . ." (John 4:24)

It seems to me that God literally is spirit.
But what about God being a consuming fire?

"our God is also a consuming fire." (Heb 12:29)

I believe that is a metaphore. A metaphore is where X is compared to Y and where X is said to be Y.

God is not like spirit but is spirit. God can't literaly be a consuming fire for He already is said to be spirit. Spirit is not fire. Therefore God being a consuming fire is a metaphore.

I liked what you said about the second death being the enemy. God is not the enemy. And God will not be destroyed or abolished per 1 Cor.15:26.

Quote from: martincisneros on October 07, 2008, 07:00:28 PM
but to me there's a distinct difference between anything that's even remotely labeled "death" and God.

Destroying death is life...
Before God started creating there was no death. Now there is death. So I think it's fair to say there is a link.
God is death is the half truth. The LoF is about death of sin. God declares death to sin not to His creation.
He also uncreates/kills the process of death.
So IMO all those death aspects are positive aspects.

[quote author=Tony N
Hi Mickiel,
Do you believe that God is death? I'm not asking you if God brings death to the old humanity but, Is God death.

Also, if the lake of fire is for wrongs done, why would they be cast into God? And if God is the lake of fire, then it must be that all those in the New City Jerusalem, the apostles and and all the nations who are not in the lake of fire must find themselves outside of God.
[/quote]

God is not Death, but he is responsible for its existence. Or you can say, " He opened death up", or brought it into reality, and locked its hold on human life. In Rev.1:18 Jesus said that he has the " Keys of Death", meaning he now has the power to turn it off, or bring it to an end. God is the beginning of Death, and will be the end of it, meaning he is simply responsible for it.

Simular with the Lake of Fire, the Lake came from God. God breathed it into existence, it came from inside of him. God is responsible for the Lakes existence, and thus responsible for any and everything placed into it.

Anything that has eternity, came from God. Period. There are no exceptions to this, none that I undserstand. The Lake of Fire is Gods Blood, you have to ask yourself what will occur when a human is placed into Gods Living Blood? A transfusion will occur. An life ending and new life beginning will occur. A Holy Baptism, a New Birth, a whole new experience, which some of us are trying to claim now.

So the Lake of Fire is misunderstood, as is the New Birth, and the giving of the Spirit. Everyone will be salted with Fire, or is destined to burn with Gods Blood on them, in them, no matter who claims that they will be changed without fire. Spirit beings, are Fire beings. This fire is the energy of eternity, the Power of God. Being cast into God, is being cast into Power. It may hurt, but I think moreso because of the ultimate surprise of the experience, not some kind of tourturus pain inflicted.

Peace.

Psalms 29:7;" The voice of the Lord hews out Flames of Fire." This is how the lake of fire came to be, and came from. God exhaled it in one great breath. This is the kind of being God is. Notice 2Thess. 1:7, Jesus is returning from heaven with his Mighty angels " In Flaming Fire." This is not metaphor or symbolism, its exact description of Beings and a comming event. They are Beings of Fire, comming from a Great Place of Fire, Heaven, Gods Lair, the abode of the Great Dragon. And I will go into the Dragons Lair tommorrow, the Great place of Fire.

I read where someone stated that The Spirit is not Fire. You know, there is nothing I can do to reveal scripture to anyone, because the evidence of Spirit and Fire, is all throughout the bible.

Its everywhere in it, because the Fire is everywhere God is.

The Holy Spirit IS Fire. Spirit beings ARE beings of Fire. There is no seperation. That which is Spirit, is Fire. Its just a whole new existence. Thats why they can fly, because they are weightless and energy. Thats why they are beings of Light and Glow, because they are burning. But not being consumed.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 07, 2008, 09:18:53 PM
[quote author=Tony N
Hi Mickiel,
Do you believe that God is death? I'm not asking you if God brings death to the old humanity but, Is God death.

Also, if the lake of fire is for wrongs done, why would they be cast into God? And if God is the lake of fire, then it must be that all those in the New City Jerusalem, the apostles and and all the nations who are not in the lake of fire must find themselves outside of God.

QuoteMickiel replied: God is not Death, but he is responsible for its existence. Or you can say, " He opened death up", or brought it into reality, and locked its hold on human life. In Rev.1:18 Jesus said that he has the " Keys of Death", meaning he now has the power to turn it off, or bring it to an end. God is the beginning of Death, and will be the end of it, meaning he is simply responsible for it.

Tony, Dear Mickiel, not to start a fight or anything, just kind of trying to figure this whole thing out here.  First you wrote that God is the lake of fire. But now you seem to be back pedalling and stating God is not death. The Bible says that the lake of fire is death (the second death). If the Bible says that the lake of fire is death and you say God is the lake of fire, then it is most logical (from the brains God gave us) to formulate that God must be death. But now you say God is not death. Therefore, if, according to you, God is not death, then it logically follows that God is not the lake of fire.
I don't know why you made a proper noun out of "death" when you wrote that "Jesus has the keys of Death." Maybe you didn't mean to? He has not only the keys of death but the keys of death and of the unseen. I would imagine that the keys of death and of the unseen are vivification bringing immortality and incorruption.

To state that God is responsible for death is not remotely to be equated with "God is death." I believe you see that from what you wrote above. Please correct me if I am wrong.

QuoteMickiel wrote: Simular with the Lake of Fire, the Lake came from God. God breathed it into existence, it came from inside of him. God is responsible for the Lakes existence, and thus responsible for any and everything placed into it.

Tony: O.K. I can live with that, Mickiel. I agree that anyone interred within that death is solely due to God's grand plan for each person. But if an automobile comes about from out of my mind and onto the drafting table and then to the engineers and to the factory and the end product is the automobile, that does not mean the automobile and I are one and the same. The automobile is not my blood. Anyone that rides in my automobile does not ride in me even if the automobile came from my creative mind. The lake of fire originally came out of God yet came through Christ. God is the source and Christ the channel. Therefore if the lake of fire is God's blood it must also be Christ's blood as well (which it isn't).

QuoteMickiel wrote: Anything that has eternity, came from God. Period. There are no exceptions to this, none that I undserstand. The Lake of Fire is Gods Blood, you have to ask yourself what will occur when a human is placed into Gods Living Blood? A transfusion will occur. An life ending and new life beginning will occur. A Holy Baptism, a New Birth, a whole new experience, which some of us are trying to claim now.

Tony: Now we are entering into philosophical matters when speaking of things eternal. The Bible never states that anything is eternal. It never even states specifically that God is eternal or never had a beginning.
Now you state that the lake of fire is God's blood. So God's blood is death for the Bible says the lake of fire is death. Death is an enemy. It is not a means by which a person enjoys God's presence. Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." In other words all who are dead to God, let them bury the ones who are literally dead yet you follow me. The ones "alive" to God will follow Christ. The dead to God are at enmity to Him. So if God's blood does that to a person, what good is it? Likewise, the two widows of 1 Timothy 5 has one that is alive to God and one that, though living is dead (to God) 1 Tim.5:6. The one that is dead has no need of God and is oblivious to God. She, while alive, is dead to God. See how death is a bad thing?

QuoteMickiel wrote: So the Lake of Fire is misunderstood, as is the New Birth, and the giving of the Spirit. Everyone will be salted with Fire, or is destined to burn with Gods Blood on them, in them, no matter who claims that they will be changed without fire. Spirit beings, are Fire beings. This fire is the energy of eternity, the Power of God. Being cast into God, is being cast into Power. It may hurt, but I think moreso because of the ultimate surprise of the experience, not some kind of tourturus pain inflicted.

Peace.
[/quote]

Tony, dear Mickiel, I believe you are deeply steeped in philosophy (I say that kindly by the way. Please don't be offended).  :thumbsup:  I agree with you that the lake of fire is not "some kind of tortuous pain inflicted." It is death. But death is  unconsciousness and lacks life. The lake of fire is called "the second death" not "God's blood." Those in the lake of fire are outside the holy city wherein resides God and the Lamb (as a very special showing of God's presence). Of course God fills heaven and earth for "in Him we are moving and living and are." But those in the lake of fire, the death are not in God's presence. They are not enjoying God's presence. They are oblivious to God's presence since they are residing in unconscious death.

Quote from: martincisneros on October 07, 2008, 07:00:28 PM
That's something that I never felt like I got a very good, Biblical, answer on or to on that Lake of Fire thread that got a lot of attention a while back.  If the last enemy to be destroyed is death, and the Lake of Fire is the second death, then where's the room for the over-romanticization in saying that God is the Lake of Fire?

Is God the last enemy that shall be put under foot?  Is God what's been separating lost souls from God, from godliness, from goodness, from holiness, from righteousness, from peace, and from joy?  God is fire, and being a Pentecostal/Charismatic, I've experienced first hand His manifestation of Himself as fire, but there's a distinction in the Scriptures between God being a fire and God being our life and God's Written Word being our life, and the Lake of Fire and Brimstone which is the Second Death.  I can work with the Lake of Fire having some, much, most, or all application in this life because I'm no longer strictly a futurist in my understanding of prophecy with no wiggle room after having spent a few months totally binging on the book of Revelation, but to me there's a distinct difference between anything that's even remotely labeled "death" and God.

If the "lake of fire" is the "second death" and the "second death" is the "last enemy death" then Revelation 20:14 has the last enemy death being cast into itself.  Not very plausible.

My understanding is that the lake of fire is NOT the second death.  Rather death and hades being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The wicked having their part in the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I know of three kinds of death in scripture:
1. physical death
2. spriritual death (dead in trespasses and sins)
3. dying in Christ (which brings life)

The only path that leads to the destruction of death #1 and #2 is to die in Christ.  Since the lake of fire is pictured destroying death and hades, and this is called the second death, it seems reasonable to me that the second death is death #3.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Quote from: bobf
My understanding is that the lake of fire is NOT the second death.  Rather death and hades being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

while reading about the lake of fire being death I was thinking this very same thing.

It doesn't say the lake of fire is death it says because of being thrown into the lake of fire they experience the second death. Not that the lake of fire is the second death but one dies after experiencing the lake of fire.

I have wondered if the lake of fire wasn't the Holy Spirit? This can't be either because John said they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt. 3:11) he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall  baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

I can't find the verse right now but doesn't it say the lake of fire was prepared for satan and his angels? If this is true the lake of fire cannot be God.

CHB

Quote from: bobf on October 08, 2008, 12:34:01 AM
My understanding is that the lake of fire is NOT the second death.  Rather death and hades being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Tony's reply: Dear bobf, Thanks for writing your thoughts on this.
I am curious why you did not quote all of Revelation 20:14:

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire."
Does your version not have "-the lake of fire" at the end of it?

Or did you just purposly leave that part out to get your idea to fit? Without "-the lake of fire" being included, it seems you could be correct. However, including that last part does harm to your idea. In fact, I would say it is the death of your idea.

For you to state that "the lake of fire is NOT the second death" is rather bold, especially when the Bible does state that "This is the second death-the lake of fire." It is the same as saying: "This is the 43rd president - George Bush." It could be re-written: "George Bush is the 43rd president."
Likewise "This is the second death - the lake of fire"  can be re-written: The lake of fire is the second death."

Quotebobf wrote: The wicked having their part in the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I know of three kinds of death in scripture:
1. physical death
2. spriritual death (dead in trespasses and sins)
3. dying in Christ (which brings life)

The only path that leads to the destruction of death #1 and #2 is to die in Christ.  Since the lake of fire is pictured destroying death and hades, and this is called the second death, it seems reasonable to me that the second death is death #3.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Tony's reply: As far as those in the lake dying when Christ died, this is true. Yet it is not true that the lake of fire is death in Christ. When Christ died, all mankind died (2 Cor.5:14) yet this is not applied to those in the lake of fire until the consummation of the eons. If it were applied to them now, prior to the judgment at the Great White Throne, they would not be in the lake of fire when that judgment occurs. They would not even be standing before the GWT. They would be righteous and justified and would have not been condemned with the world. Had it been applied to them now they never would have to go into the second death. We who have Christ' death applied to us do not go to the second death.

I personally don't see the Lake of Fire as the second death, I agree with those who view the second death, as the death of the first death. The Lake of Fire is the vehicle that is used, but I think that Death and Hades , or the grave, are not beings, not humans, not Spirit creatures, but they are Symbols of concepts that will no longer exist. Very real concepts, yes, but not beings within themselves. They were things God used, God deployed, or that God opened up and brought into existance. The Lake of Fire is not death, it is going to be used partly as a place of Death, but it is a place of Life and great Power. And I will go into this in detail tommorrow.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 08, 2008, 04:45:37 AM


I personally don't see the Lake of Fire as the second death, I agree with those who view the second death, as the death of the first death. The Lake of Fire is the vehicle that is used, but I think that Death and Hades , or the grave, are not beings, not humans, not Spirit creatures, but they are Symbols of concepts that will no longer exist. Very real concepts, yes, but not beings within themselves. They were things God used, God deployed, or that God opened up and brought into existance. The Lake of Fire is not death, it is going to be used partly as a place of Death, but it is a place of Life and great Power. And I will go into this in detail tommorrow.

Peace.

Dear Mickiel,
You state that "the lake of fire is not death." The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. In other words, The lake of fire is death. Concerning death and Hades or more properly "death and the unseen" are cast into the lake of fire, the words "death and the unseen" should be viewed as a metonymy.
"death and the unseen are used in reference to those of mankind who are associated with death and the unseen, the unjust dead (vss.12,13). In other words, those who were held by death and the unseen are cast into the lake of fire.
It is the same as if I said "The city of Bonn, Germany died in a single night of fighting." Would we think that the buildings of the city along with the sewer system fought that night and the building and sewer system died or the people of that city faught and died. The latter is the case.

Not to be premature, because I am at work until 12am, and without my bible, but when we consider the Lake of Fire, and God throwing death into it, the things thrown into the Lake, are NOT the Lake itself. The Lake of Fire is not humans, not demons, not death, not the Grave. These are things thrown into it. The Lake of Fire was " Prepared for satan and his demons", meaning the purpose for throwing them into it is differing than other things thrown in. God has a special party for them. Something espically prepared for them.

However, when it states that death is thrown into the Lake, then states that to be the second death, it is not calling the Lake of Fire death. It says this is the second death, it is simply eulogizing death, not labeling the Lake as being death itself. It means that God will never allow anythingelse to die, which is actually proof that the humans thrown in afterwards, surely cannot die, because death is done away with. Which further makes this Lake a place of Life, because it destroys death, or it MARKS the end of God using death.

The Lake of Fire is not a death pool, not a grave, not a punishing pit, and far too many view it as such. It has multiple personalitys, because God is using it for diverse reasons.

Listen, I was not going to bring this up, but I keep refering to the Spirit world as a place of Fire. Much as we view water, I begin to believe that Spirit beings view Fire like this. Water is a part of us, we gain nourishment from it, its in us. We swim and bathe in it. I think so do Spirit beings with Fire. A Lake of Fire to them is a thing of bueaty, and I wouldnot doubt that there are other lakes and Rivers of Fire in Gods Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is also a place of Water. A Great wonderous place, but I get ahead of myself.

Peace.

Quote from: Tony N on October 08, 2008, 04:37:38 AMTony's reply: Dear bobf, Thanks for writing your thoughts on this.
I am curious why you did not quote all of Revelation 20:14:

I did quote the entire verse.  I was quoting from the KJV.  I wasn't aware that some versions add the phrase in question.

QuoteOr did you just purposly leave that part out to get your idea to fit?

That would be silly.

QuoteWithout "-the lake of fire" being included, it seems you could be correct. However, including that last part does harm to your idea. In fact, I would say it is the death of your idea.

The KJV, Webster, and YLT do not have that phrase, so it seems that I could be correct.

QuoteFor you to state that "the lake of fire is NOT the second death" is rather bold, especially when the Bible does state that "This is the second death-the lake of fire."

THE bible?

QuoteIt is the same as saying: "This is the 43rd president - George Bush." It could be re-written: "George Bush is the 43rd president."
Likewise "This is the second death - the lake of fire"  can be re-written: The lake of fire is the second death."

Yes, if that phrase is in the scriptures then the lake of fire is the second death.  In that case it's rather doubtful that the second death is like the "last enemry, death" which is being cast into it and apparently consumed by it.

QuoteTony's reply: As far as those in the lake dying when Christ died, this is true. Yet it is not true that the lake of fire is death in Christ. When Christ died, all mankind died (2 Cor.5:14) yet this is not applied to those in the lake of fire until the consummation of the eons. If it were applied to them now, prior to the judgment at the Great White Throne, they would not be in the lake of fire when that judgment occurs. They would not even be standing before the GWT. They would be righteous and justified and would have not been condemned with the world. Had it been applied to them now they never would have to go into the second death. We who have Christ' death applied to us do not go to the second death.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.  What I meant by the second death being death #3 was losing ones life for Christ's sake in order to find life.  Not everyone has done that.

Quote from: CHB on October 08, 2008, 01:56:53 AM
while reading about the lake of fire being death I was thinking this very same thing.

It doesn't say the lake of fire is death it says because of being thrown into the lake of fire they experience the second death. Not that the lake of fire is the second death but one dies after experiencing the lake of fire.

That's how I've always understood it.

QuoteI have wondered if the lake of fire wasn't the Holy Spirit? This can't be either because John said they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt. 3:11) he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall  baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

I can't find the verse right now but doesn't it say the lake of fire was prepared for satan and his angels? If this is true the lake of fire cannot be God.

CHB

I agree, it's not the Holy Spirit either.  IMO the LOF is simply divine judgment, the fulfillment of God's law, the reaping of what was sown to the flesh.  It is within that judgment that the second death takes place.

Deuteronomy 32:35  To me [belongeth] vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36  For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left. 37 And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted,

"There power is gone, there is none shut up, or left" sounds like the death of one's idolatry and that is when God's judgment comes to rest.

Hi bobf, that is strange. The Greek texts I have do have "-the lake of fire" in there. Here are some bibles with and without "the lake of fire" in them:
Rev 20:14

(ALT)  And death and the realm of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

(ASV)  And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

(CEV)  Afterwards, death and its kingdom were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(CLV) And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

(DRB)  And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.

(ESV)  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.  

(GNB)  Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.)

(GW)  Death and hell were thrown into the fiery lake. (The fiery lake is the second death.)

(HCSB)  Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.  

(ISV)  Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This is the second death-the lake of fire.)  

(KJV)  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


(LITV)  And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

(MKJV)  And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

(MSG)  Then Death and Hell were hurled into Lake Fire. This is the second death--Lake Fire.

(RV)  And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.  

(Webster)  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(WNT)  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire; this is the Second Death--the Lake of fire.

(YLT)  and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;

The 1611 KJV, the 1833 Webster and 1898 Young's Literal must follow a text without all that God originally said :)

QuoteIt is the same as saying: "This is the 43rd president - George Bush." It could be re-written: "George Bush is the 43rd president."
Likewise "This is the second death - the lake of fire"  can be re-written: The lake of fire is the second death."

Bobf replied: Yes, if that phrase is in the scriptures then the lake of fire is the second death.  In that case it's rather doubtful that the second death is like the "last enemry, death" which is being cast into it and apparently consumed by it.

Tony's reply: I don't follow your logic there. Death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire stands for the people held by death and the unseen. It does not mean that a concept called "death" and a concept called "the unseen" are put to death.

QuoteTony's reply: As far as those in the lake dying when Christ died, this is true. Yet it is not true that the lake of fire is death in Christ. When Christ died, all mankind died (2 Cor.5:14) yet this is not applied to those in the lake of fire until the consummation of the eons. If it were applied to them now, prior to the judgment at the Great White Throne, they would not be in the lake of fire when that judgment occurs. They would not even be standing before the GWT. They would be righteous and justified and would have not been condemned with the world. Had it been applied to them now they never would have to go into the second death. We who have Christ' death applied to us do not go to the second death.

bobf replied: I'm not sure what you're saying here.  What I meant by the second death being death #3 was losing ones life for Christ's sake in order to find life.  Not everyone has done that.

[/quote]

Tony's reply:
Are you saying that all unbelievers in 2008 who become believers in 2008 are cast into the lake of fire? I'm not following you.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 08, 2008, 05:19:58 AM

Not to be premature, because I am at work until 12am, and without my bible, but when we consider the Lake of Fire, and God throwing death into it, the things thrown into the Lake, are NOT the Lake itself. The Lake of Fire is not humans, not demons, not death, not the Grave. These are things thrown into it. The Lake of Fire was " Prepared for satan and his demons", meaning the purpose for throwing them into it is differing than other things thrown in. God has a special party for them. Something espically prepared for them.

However, when it states that death is thrown into the Lake, then states that to be the second death, it is not calling the Lake of Fire death. It says this is the second death, it is simply eulogizing death, not labeling the Lake as being death itself. It means that God will never allow anythingelse to die, which is actually proof that the humans thrown in afterwards, surely cannot die, because death is done away with. Which further makes this Lake a place of Life, because it destroys death, or it MARKS the end of God using death.

Dear Mickiel,
It is most likely you did not understand what I wrote before concerning this. I will post it again:
You state that "the lake of fire is not death." The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. In other words, The lake of fire is death. Concerning death and Hades or more properly "death and the unseen" are cast into the lake of fire, the words "death and the unseen" should be viewed as a metonymy.
"death and the unseen are used in reference to those of mankind who are associated with death and the unseen, the unjust dead (vss.12,13). In other words, those who were held by death and the unseen are cast into the lake of fire.
It is the same as if I said "The city of Bonn, Germany died in a single night of fighting." Would we think that the buildings of the city along with the sewer system fought that night and the building and sewer system died or the people of that city faught and died. The latter is the case.

QuoteMickiel wrote: The Lake of Fire is not a death pool, not a grave, not a punishing pit, and far too many view it as such. It has multiple personalitys, because God is using it for diverse reasons.

Listen, I was not going to bring this up, but I keep refering to the Spirit world as a place of Fire. Much as we view water, I begin to believe that Spirit beings view Fire like this. Water is a part of us, we gain nourishment from it, its in us. We swim and bathe in it. I think so do Spirit beings with Fire. A Lake of Fire to them is a thing of bueaty, and I wouldnot doubt that there are other lakes and Rivers of Fire in Gods Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is also a place of Water. A Great wonderous place, but I get ahead of myself.

Peace.

Hello again Mickiel, if the spirit beings think the lake of fire is to them a thing of beauty then why are they in torment while interred therein?

For humans the lake of fire is not a place of torment. It is unconscious death for them. So I would agree with you that it is not a punishing pit. However, I humbly disagree with you that the lake of fire "is not a death pool, not a grave." Well, the Bible does not call the lake of fire a "death pool" or "a grave." It does, however call it "the second death." Just as there is a first hour and a second hour, both hours are, well, you know . . . hours. Just as there is a first death and a second death, both deaths are death. They are not life.

Let me ask you this, friend: Do you believe that the fires of Gehenna are going to be a thing of beauty along with the stinking cadavers in Gehenna that are being eaten by worms during the millennial reign of Christ?

Isa 66:24 And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

QuoteMickiel wrote: The Lake of Fire was " Prepared for satan and his demons", meaning the purpose for throwing them into it is differing than other things thrown in. God has a special party for them. Something espically prepared for them.

I think you must be quoting this:
"Mat 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the adversary and his messengers."

That, friend, is during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. Those nations that mistreated Christ's brethren will enter into what could best be described as a "fire eonian" or linguistically: The fire pertaining to that specific 1000 year long eon. And what is that "fire" those nations experience? It is stated in Matt.25:46:
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian."

Just as Israel went through the iron furnace during their 400+ years in Egypt, now it is the nations turn to experience that fire. But this is not the lake of fire. The lake of fire comes at the end of the 1000 year reign.
The adversary and his messengers is not Satan and his demons but the adversarial nation and that nation's emmisaries which carried letters of harm concerning Christ's brethren. It can't be "the fire prepared for Satan and his demons" because that would mean that these nations go into the lake of fire and sulphur 1000 years before they are supposed to. Get it?

Hi Tony,

How many times has the KJV been revised since 1611? LOL.  Elhanan Winchester in the 1700s, in The Universal Restoration, understood this Lake of Fire passage in the way that you're talking about.  So, I'm personally wondering if any of the earlier editions of the KJV have that phrase in Revelation 20.  I was going to see if I could track down any older editions of the KJV at any local antiquarian shops for a quick peak at Revelation 20, but I accidentally caught someone's flu yesterday so I'm staying home today and drinking as much distilled water as possible.  I think I've successfully kicked it out about 90% of the way, but I've still got the aches over it.  I was going to skim my copy of Winchester's Dialogues to see if there was a quotation of this Revelation 20 passage, but it's not happening with this headache. LOL.

Hi Martin,
I'm so sorry you are down with the flu. If you take some Kelp tablets the iodine in them will go into your lymph nodes and when the flu virus circulates through them the lymphatic system will attack them little critters with a vengeance. (This is not meant to be taken as medical advice).

I don't know what version Elhanan used. He might have had access to other Grk. texts? or other versions?

Prayers for a speedy recovery, friend. May God also give you the grace to enable you to undergo this trial in the flesh.

Tony

Quote from: martincisneros on October 08, 2008, 05:28:30 PM
Hi Tony,

How many times has the KJV been revised since 1611? LOL.  Elhanan Winchester in the 1700s, in The Universal Restoration, understood this Lake of Fire passage in the way that you're talking about.  So, I'm personally wondering if any of the earlier editions of the KJV have that phrase in Revelation 20.  I was going to see if I could track down any older editions of the KJV at any local antiquarian shops for a quick peak at Revelation 20, but I accidentally caught someone's flu yesterday so I'm staying home today and drinking as much distilled water as possible.  I think I've successfully kicked it out about 90% of the way, but I've still got the aches over it.  I was going to skim my copy of Winchester's Dialogues to see if there was a quotation of this Revelation 20 passage, but it's not happening with this headache. LOL.

In Revelation 2:10-11, notice;"Be Faithful unto Death, and I will give you a Crown of Life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be Hurt by the Second Death." I want you to study the word " Hurt" here. Obviously we all must die, notwithstanding the few who are changed in the twinkling of an eye, and caught up with Christ. But even that split second change, is a type of death, but it is death with " No Pain." No Hurt. But the flesh will die. The human that sins will die, that death will be the first death. Its going to hurt. Now any human ressurected to be judged, must then die again, but that second death does not have to be painful.

The second Death can be a most delightful experience, when the pain is removed from it. Its like childbirth, you remove the pain, then the woman and man would better enjoy the birth of their child. So God can remove the hurt and Pain , even from death. And he can remove it from the Lake of Fire.

Look at this chronology from Rev.20:14-15, where the second death is mused into the Lake of Fire. In 21:1, the New heavens and the new earth are brought into reality. Remember, the Lake of Fire is still there, on scene. The Holy City is brought down to earth. Then a loud voice announces that God himself shall now tabernacle with men. God will wipe away sadness himself, and it states that there " Shall NO LONGER be any Death." No mourning, crying,or Pain( Hurt). The Jesus Speaks up and announces that he is " Making ALL THINGS NEW!"

This newness includes the Lake of Fire, it will be made New! Or its purpose will be changed. It will no longer serve as a place of sorrow and Pain, no longer. It will be changed! God is fund of changing the nature of things.

And I want to go further into the Lake of Fire.

Peace.

So the second death, will be mused or mixed into the Lake of fire, and for that moment, yes Tony, the Lake of Fire will be Death, but understand that it willnot remain death, and the second death willNOT be like the First! God is prepping to even change the very nature of Death, and remove its sting! The second death will be changed to Life! It already is a format for Life.

The second Death is a format for Life. Understand what God is mixing into this Great Lake. And WHY!

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

In 1 Corinth. 15:55-56;" O Death where is your victory? O Death, where is your sting? The Sting of Death is sin. If you remove sin, you remove hurt. The very nature then of the Lake of Fire, is to " Remove", or take away Sin! THAT IS A BAPTISM! Thats what Gods Fire does! It removes, it ends, all pain and suffering. All hurt, there will be no more pain or hurt. So although we are impressed by the Lakes ability to cause hurt and Pain, its designed to shift gears AWAY from hurt and Pain, even condemnation.

Thanks be to God, the Victory of the Lake of Fire, is an ultimate blessing, our victory will be in Christ ability to make ALL things New!

With this in mind, lets continue on the Lake.

Peace.

The transformation of the Lake of Fire, or Jesus promise AFTER he comes to earth to make ALL things new, must be considered while examining the nature or the meanings of the Lake of Fire. Again  1Corinth. 15:54;" But WHEN this perishable will have put on Imperishable, this mortal will have put on immortality, THEN will COME ABOUT the saying that is written, " Death is swallowed up IN VICTORY!" The second death is a true sign of Victory! The Lake of Fire is Victory! It is NOT sadness, doom, suffering or death. It is Victory!

Listen, Death will be swallowed up BY the Lake of Fire, THAT is the victory. Everything that humanity believes will perish in the Fire, all the biblical verses on Perishing, will have a TRANSFORMATION IN the Lake, and that perishing will PUT ON Imperishing, or change. Because God is the source of the Change, of the Fire. The true focus is not what the second death is, its God removing Death from reality, and transforming  Death to Life! Death is a format, or a foundation for change for mortal to immortal.

And I want to get into some scriptures on that.

Peace.

Listen closely and study in prayer. 1Corinth. 15:56;" The sting of Death is sin, and the Power of Sin is the Law!" Sin is a written letter by God, wrote with his own hand into a book, one of the Books that will be opened at the Great White throne Judgement.  God wrote it to be as it has been. The reason why any name is not found written in the Book, is because God didNOT desire to precondemn anyone, but to save them. So they are cast into the Lake, only to be written into the Book of Life, because they will now be renewed.

Because the Salvation of humanity is also a written letter from God, or another book that will be there at this JUdgement. Names not in one book, will be in the other book, because the other book is still currently being written by God, the Living book of LIfe!

The Power of Sin is the Law, but the Power of God, HAS NO LAW! Galations 5:23, all the Fruits of Gods Spirit, hold NOTHING that could be against humanitys Salvation! Against Gods Spirit, there IS NO LAW! The Law of Sin is cancelled and overuled, the Law of gravity is rendered meraningless, the Law of Death is useless, the Law of Justice and Judgement is obsolette. You need to understand this. ALL Laws in the Lake of Fire, are going to be changed IN humanitys Favor. That IS the Grace of God!

The Mercy in his Rule.

And I want to get into more scriptures to show another aspect of the Lake of Fire.

Peace.

Here is the New Law Christ was bringing into motion in Revelations when he promised to make ALL THINGS NEW! Galations 6:2;" Bear one anothers BURDENS, this FULFILLS the Law of Christ!" Christ will bear all of humanitys burdens, you already know the Scriptures on that, but they are to be applied AFTER Jesus has returned, AFTER the Lake has consumed, AFTER the Pain and Hurt. After humans are placed into the Lake!

Now Listen, if we are to examine our own work, Gal.  6:4, what do you think will be the result of Christ himself examining HIS own Work!

Now, come on, Christ examining his own Work. He defeated satan, and destroyed his work on humanity. THAT renders the second death as meaningless to law, useless to sin, ALL benefical to humanity. There is absolutely no possible way that humanity could loose out on Salvation.

And absolutely no OTHER meaning for the Lake of Fire, than retrobution. Redemption.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

I have already mentioned that people thrown into the Lake of Fire, will be frightened and weeping, not because of Pain and punishment, but because of Shock and misunderstanding. Hebrews 10:31, " It is a terrifying thing to FALL INTO( or be placed into the Lake) the hands of the Living God." This is WHY we read about the terror, the misery, the future shock, the dismay. All related to this Lake of Fire. It will be a time of terror, for sure. It scares me to think on it even now.

It scares me to be riding with someone who shifts their car into high speed gear, they are moving faster. And I am along for the ride. The Lake of Fire is God shifting gears on humanity, changing realitys, shifting into another very high gear. I understand its hard to have confidence to enter into this most Holy Place. Heb. 10:19. But it is a NEW Change that Jesus Promised, 10:20, a new and LIVING way inaugurated FOR us!

God IS LIght, IN him there is NO Darkness AT ALL! 1John 1:5. The Lake of Fire IS NOT Darkness, its NOT a dark moment in humanitys history. Its our BEST moment.

And allow me to continue on that.

Peace.

Consider this; If you are the director of anything, holding power over the conclusion, why would you wreck everything in a moment of doom? If you are sane, you wouldnot. What makes you think God would do this? Bring humanity to a climax of fire and doom. Burn us into some perverted submission. The Lake of Fire is NOT God gaining control of things, hes alrerady in control. Its not him causing results or getting rid of humanity. Its all according to his will. Its not him Judging. Its not. Its all predetermined, predestined movements, none of which are in doubt to him. And these events will GREATLY enlarge our Faith in him. The Love involved will grow Greater.

But let me sidetrack, and go into how I believe the Lake of Fire will Sanctify Entirely. 1Thess. 5:23. And All humans will be preserved COMPLETTELY!

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 09, 2008, 03:56:55 AM
Its all according to his will. Its not him Judging. Its not.

11 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them.
12 And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts.
13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts. (Revelation 20:11-13 CLNT)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that was sitting thereon, from whose face fled the earth and heaven, and, place, was not found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and, books, were opened, and, another book, was opened, which is, the book, of life; and the dead, were judged, out of the things written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and, death and hades, gave up the dead that were in them; and they were judged, each one, according to their works. (Revelation 20:11-13 Rotherham's Emphasized)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; 12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; 13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; (Revelation 20:11-13 Young's Literal)

11 And I saw a Great White Throne, and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled; and a place was not found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works. (Revelation 20:11-13 Green's Literal)

11Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
12I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
13And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works]. (Revelation 20:11-13 Amplified Bible)

Seems to me as though this passage is talking about judgment.  The only thing left to talk about along those lines is what/when/why is the Lake of Fire and how God's supposed to bring anything good out of that tragedy.  God brought misery into the lives of countless Gentiles in Old Testament times because of His Covenant people, and also to deal with their sins, yet those same people found mercy in a latter age.  If it weren't for a raising from the dead being associated with this judgment, I'd be tempted to think that it was some large scale tragedy that happens here on earth, or that it was a summarizing of all of the judgments of the book of Revelation into a couple of verses.  Yet there's something extra-demensional about this judgment because the earth and heavens disappear from His sight while this is going on.  It's a one-on-one dealing with each individual, either of all of humanity that's ever lived or of those that died during the millenium (I think it's ambiguous on that point), and He's not being watchful of the entire Creation while that's going on.  On the ambiguity side, what about the preflood people?  Are they having to go through this judgment, when the Scriptures say that they're both judged and brought into life through the preaching of Christ after His Crucifixion?  I personally think it's an oversimplification to say that it's a judgment of everyone that's ever lived.  That ignores too much of what's happened previously.  Some have interpreted Jesus' comments about that first century generation having already been judged at His crucifixion and in the cries of the blood of all of those that He said would rise in the judgment against them to have culminated in the 70AD destruction.  If there's any or much truth to that, then their generation might also be excused/excluded from the Lake of Fire judgment if it's yet future.

Judgement day is a misnomer, God has already Judged humanity.

The Great white throne is not about Judgement, its about the unfolding of Gods predetermined will.

And I will show this tommorrow night.

Peace.

Quote from: Tony N on October 08, 2008, 02:02:50 PM
Hi bobf, that is strange. The Greek texts I have do have "-the lake of fire" in there. Here are some bibles with and without "the lake of fire" in them:
Rev 20:14

The 1611 KJV, the 1833 Webster and 1898 Young's Literal must follow a text without all that God originally said :)

The Blue Letter Bible website says that phrase is in the M and NU texts.

QuoteTony's reply: I don't follow your logic there. Death and the unseen being cast into the lake of fire stands for the people held by death and the unseen. It does not mean that a concept called "death" and a concept called "the unseen" are put to death.

My logic is:
1. If the lake of fire = second death
2. Second death = a second rehash of 'death and hades'
Then death and hades are cast into a second version of themselves.  Which would be a rather odd exercise.

I do not agree that death and hades being cast into the LOF symbolizes only those held by death and hades and not death and hades themselves.  To say that would 'be rather bold' since all bibles say that death and hades are cast into the LOF, in addition to saying the those not found in the BOL will be cast there.  So there is no question that death and hades are cast into the LOF.  The only question is whether they are consumed by that fire.  It seems reasonable to me that a symbolic 'lake of fire' will in some sense consume all that is cast into it.

QuoteTony's reply:
Are you saying that all unbelievers in 2008 who become believers in 2008 are cast into the lake of fire? I'm not following you.

I was attempting to address an objection that I probably did not follow, so I'm not surprised you didn't follow me either.

No, I'm not saying that believers are cast into the lake of fire.  I'm saying that unbelievers (liars, idolators, etc.) are cast into the LOF.  I'm saying that the LOF symbolizes divine judgment, and that the only 'exit' for those within God's judgment, is to turn away from serving dead gods and to seek the living God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. In doing so they find life and thus death & hades which held them are consumed.

Example, the 'prodigal' son:
- The fuel for the fire was his trading his inheritance with God in order to pursue riotous living.
- This was idolatry in its purest form.
- All idolators have their part in the LOF.
- The 'fire' was his reaping of what he sowed.
- Being 'lost and dead' he was in the grips of 'death and hades'
- He found life when he saw that the gods he was serving were dead idols, leading to destruction, he cast off those idols, he saw that he deserved nothing with God, and that he needed mercy, and he returned to God with a pure and contrite heart.
- Thus 'death and hades' were consumed (for him) along with his old wicked self.  It is in this sense that I see 'death and hades and him' being cast into the LOF to be consumed.
- The second death in all this was, imo, the destruction of his 'old self' which preferred to serve idols instead of God.

Judgment is often likened to fire throughout scripture, and judgment is shown to be both destructive and yet beneficial.

Isaiah 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself. 11  Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you. 12 And the people shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup

Zepheniah 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination [is] to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, [even] all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. 9  For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. 10  From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.  10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. 

Deuteronomy 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left.

Quote from: Tony N on October 08, 2008, 02:15:21 PM
It is the same as if I said "The city of Bonn, Germany died in a single night of fighting." Would we think that the buildings of the city along with the sewer system fought that night and the building and sewer system died or the people of that city faught and died. The latter is the case.[/i]

That's possible.  But we also say things like this: "Our superior airforce will be their destruction" when we really mean it will be the agent that brings about their destruction.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 09, 2008, 12:11:18 AM


In Revelation 2:10-11, notice;"Be Faithful unto Death, and I will give you a Crown of Life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be Hurt by the Second Death." I want you to study the word " Hurt" here. Obviously we all must die, notwithstanding the few who are changed in the twinkling of an eye, and caught up with Christ. But even that split second change, is a type of death, but it is death with " No Pain." No Hurt. But the flesh will die. The human that sins will die, that death will be the first death. Its going to hurt. Now any human ressurected to be judged, must then die again, but that second death does not have to be painful.

Hi Mickiel,
Thanks for your thoughts. I am curious how you have come up with the idea that the change from mortality to immortality is a type of death? I would call it a change from a dying creature (for the ones changed while alive) to immortality and it is a change from actual death (for those in the graves) to instant immortality.

QuoteMickiel wrote: The second Death can be a most delightful experience, when the pain is removed from it. Its like childbirth, you remove the pain, then the woman and man would better enjoy the birth of their child. So God can remove the hurt and Pain , even from death. And he can remove it from the Lake of Fire.

Tony: Gen 3:16 And to the woman He says, "Multiplying, yea, multiplying am I your grief and the groaning of your pregnancy. In grief shall you bear sons. "Yet by your husband is your restoration, and he shall rule over you."

Childbirth is not meant to be pleasant in these mortal bodies. God said so.

I doubt there is pain in the second death, otherwise it would not be called "the second death." I don't know how you would think that being cast into the last enemy called "death" would be a wonderful experience.

QuoteMickiel wrote: Look at this chronology from Rev.20:14-15, where the second death is mused into the Lake of Fire. In 21:1, the New heavens and the new earth are brought into reality. Remember, the Lake of Fire is still there, on scene. The Holy City is brought down to earth. Then a loud voice announces that God himself shall now tabernacle with men. God will wipe away sadness himself, and it states that there " Shall NO LONGER be any Death." No mourning, crying,or Pain( Hurt). The Jesus Speaks up and announces that he is " Making ALL THINGS NEW!"

Tony's reply:
Dear Mickiel,
Death is not done away with for the whole planet at the time God says "there shall no longer be any death." How do I know this? Paul wrote that death is not abolished until

• 1) Christ quits reigning
  2) all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (see 1 Cor.15:22-28)

Please note that Christ never quits reigning in Revelation.
Also, please note that on the new earth there are still kings, sovereignties, authorities and powers. Therefore death for the whole planet has not yet been done away with. So, this begs the question: How are we to take God's declaration in Revelation that "there Shall NO LONGER be any Death" in 21:4? I believe it has to do with those allowed to live within the new city Jerusalem. Also we know immortality has not been given to the denizens of the earth because they are having to eat of the leaves of the tree of life for their infirmities.

QuoteMickiel wrote: This newness includes the Lake of Fire, it will be made New! Or its purpose will be changed. It will no longer serve as a place of sorrow and Pain, no longer. It will be changed! God is fund of changing the nature of things.

And I want to go further into the Lake of Fire.

Peace.

Tony's reply:
I believe the lake of fire continues on the new earth as the second death. There is nothing new made about the second death. It is still death no matter how new you wish to make it and grande. Those on the new earth are threatened with it:

Rev 21:8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

I don't believe all things being created anew has to do with the lake of fire.
Isa 65:17 For, behold Me creating new heavens and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor shall they come upon the heart."

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make, will stand before Me,averring is Yahweh, "So stand shall your seed and your name."

Rev 21:4 And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."
Rev 21:5 And He Who is sitting on the throne said, "Lo! New am I making all! And He is saying, "Write, for these sayings are faithful and true."

Quote from: bobf on October 09, 2008, 07:20:35 PMMy logic is:
1. If the lake of fire = second death
2. Second death = a second rehash of 'death and hades'
Then death and hades are cast into a second version of themselves.  Which would be a rather odd exercise.

Example, the 'prodigal' son:
- The fuel for the fire was his trading his inheritance with God in order to pursue riotous living.
- This was idolatry in its purest form.
- All idolators have their part in the LOF.
- The 'fire' was his reaping of what he sowed.
- Being 'lost and dead' he was in the grips of 'death and hades'
- He found life when he saw that the gods he was serving were dead idols, leading to destruction, he cast off those idols, he saw that he deserved nothing with God, and that he needed mercy, and he returned to God with a pure and contrite heart.
- Thus 'death and hades' were consumed (for him) along with his old wicked self.  It is in this sense that I see 'death and hades and him' being cast into the LOF to be consumed.
- The second death in all this was, imo, the destruction of his 'old self' which preferred to serve idols instead of God.

Judgment is often likened to fire throughout scripture, and judgment is shown to be both destructive and yet beneficial.

Hi Bob,
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you might be mixing up your stories. The prodigal son didn't go to hades or to any fire. He went to the pig farm. However, once he came to himself and went back to the father it was said of him: "This my son was dead yet now he lives."

Maybe you are trying to say he experienced a trial by fire (figuratively speaking)?

To keep the figure of the story correct with your understanding you might say:
- The slop for the pig farm was his trading his inheritance with God in order to pursue riotous living.
- This was idolatry in its purest form.
- All idolators have their part in the pig farm.
- The 'pig farm' was his reaping of what he sowed.
- Being 'lost and dead' he was in the grips of the pig farm
- He found life when he saw that the gods he was serving were dead idols, leading to the pig farm, he cast off those idols, he saw that he deserved nothing with God, and that he needed mercy, and he returned to God with a pure and contrite heart.
- Thus the pig farm was  consumed (for him) along with his old wicked self.  It is in this sense that I see the pig farm and him' being cast into the pig farm to be consumed.
- The pig farm in all this was, imo, the destruction of his 'old self' which preferred to serve idols instead of God.

Catch my drift?

Quote from: Tony N on October 09, 2008, 10:37:20 PM
Hi Bob,
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you might be mixing up your stories. The prodigal son didn't go to hades or to any fire. He went to the pig farm. However, once he came to himself and went back to the father it was said of him: "This my son was dead yet now he lives."

The 'pig farm' in this parable and 'fire' in many other scriptures are symbols and IMO symbols of the same thing: judgment.  So the story could be told using 'pig farm' or 'fire' or 'judgment'.  Using 'pig farm' would not have explained what I was thinking as to how 'death and hades' can be consumed in a 'lake of fire' when idolators are cast into it.

QuoteMaybe you are trying to say he experienced a trial by fire (figuratively speaking)?

'Trial by fire' usually refers to the trial of a believer's faith by fire.  The prodigal son was not having his faith tried while he was being judged since selling one's inheritance with God for idols is not faith.

I mentioned Judgement day, or what many perceive as God judging the world in the end time. I disagree with that teaching and understanding. Again Jesus in John 12:47;" And if anyone hears my sayings, and does not keep them, I do not Judge him; for I didNOT come to Judge the World, but to save the World." And you had better believe that he is reflecting his Father in this revelation, God holds no plans on Judging the World either, but on saving it.

And if anyone hears and does not obey, Jesus just outright states that he is not going to judge their disobedience. Hes not going to condemn them, or hold some kind of court on their sins in the Great white throne.  God is NOT bringing humanity to the Great white throne, or simply meaning his throne, in order to Judge them in some negative perceived manner. The Judgement has already been made, and Jesus reveals the judgement of God here, " But To Save them." Thats the Judgement God has already made.

In John 1:16;" For of his Fullness we have ALL received, and Grace upon Grace." What Judgement is going to be different than this? We ALL have already received this Judgement.

And I want to go into this.

Peace.

You see we TOTALLY misunderstand Gods Judgement. Both in the past, now, or at the Great White Throne in Revelations. It is simply amazeing how many think God will take each human individually, and bring up every single sin they have committed, and Judge each one, one by one. Its ridiculus. Its dumbfounding how we have been duped into any kind of belief.

You want to know and understand how God Judges, look at Jesus, which many refuse to do. Look at how Jesus Judges. John 8:7, " He who is without sin amoung you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Vs. 10;" Woman where are they? Did no one condemn you?

Neither do I condemn you. Just go on your way.

THIS is the way God Judges humans, just like his Son did, he will do. But judge thristy, judgemental people, who desire God to Judge like THEY Judge, don't believe in this. People judge according to the flesh. Jesus in John 8:15;" You people Judge according to the flesh, ( or according to sin), I am NOT judging anyone!"

And this is an exact representation of his Father God.

And I want to touch on that.

Peace.

I want to do something here, and actually change scripture. Allow this for a moment and think with me. John 3:16;" For God so Loved the World,that BECAUSE of this Love, he has already Judged that all will be saved!" Oh God Judges alright, but his Judgement, his final word on ALL things, is based on his Love for US! THAT IS our salvation, our advantage, our destiny. Oh how fortunate we all are.

Did you know that IF God choose to Judge us BASED on our sins, he could effectively pick each one of us apart, and justifiably keep us apart from him. And sadly many of us actually desire for him to be that kind of Judge. Believe him to be like this.

No, no; thats how YOU are! Thats how you would judge. Again Jesus in John 8:16;" BUT, even IF I do Judge, my judgement is true." Jesus  is saying that even if he Judges, his Judgement is true, a clear reference to he himself actually speculating on things that he will not do, but explaining how he would do it  IF he had to. Actual proof that he willnot Judge humanity, because he is dealing in an " If", leaving the opening that he would not even do it in the first place.

Jesus does all things in his Fathers Name and will, NOT judging IS his Fathers Will.

But many cannot help but to think God will judge humanity in some kind of negative punishing manner.

Mostly because thats what THEY would do.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 10, 2008, 03:13:08 AMAnd if anyone hears and does not obey, Jesus just outright states that he is not going to judge their disobedience.

Yet Jesus also outright states that His Word will judge our disobedience in the 'last day':

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Here are some of Christ's words:

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 18:33  Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

Dear Mickiel,
I am curious what your thoughts are concerning what I wrote to you. Could you be specific as to what I wrote you?

Peace,
Tony

Quote from: Tony N on October 10, 2008, 02:27:58 PM
Dear Mickiel,
I am curious what your thoughts are concerning what I wrote to you. Could you be specific as to what I wrote you?

Peace,
Tony

I have no thoughts on what you wrote. I did read it all.

Peace

If I may continue on Gods Fire.

Psalms 30:5;" For his anger is but for a moment, His Favor is for a Lifetime." Notice that, His Favor is for a lifetime. God actually does Favor people, he just likes how they are. And once he favors you, he just looks to you, sees to you, has a thing for you. And this is one way you can learn about Gods Fire, how he blesses you, and burns you. I mean just how he treats you, gives insight into his ways and means.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 11, 2008, 08:18:47 PM


If I may continue on Gods Fire.

Psalms 30:5;" For his anger is but for a moment, His Favor is for a Lifetime." Notice that, His Favor is for a lifetime. God actually does Favor people, he just likes how they are. And once he favors you, he just looks to you, sees to you, has a thing for you. And this is one way you can learn about Gods Fire, how he blesses you, and burns you. I mean just how he treats you, gives insight into his ways and means.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

I think King David is a good example of learning, and comming to know Gods Fire. Psalms 31:12;" I am forgotten as a dead man, out of my Mind, I am like a broken vessel." Read this chapter, look at Davids sorrow, as he is burnt. This man says he feels like he is " Out of his MInd." Just lost it. No need to pretend, hes just gone, burnt out and can't get a grip. Did you know that when God favors you, he will do this to you.

This is the Lake of Fire NOW! God is doing NOW, what he will do to humans in the Lake of Fire. Suffering with a purpose, pain with design. Humans in the Lake will be going out of their Minds, but God is doing that NOW, to certain humans.

Isaiah 1:31;" And the Strong man will become tender, his work also a spark. Thus they shall both burn together, and there will be none to quench them." A vision of the comming experience in the Lake, even strong hardcore humans, will be humbled by this. Again Jesus in Mark 8:35;" Whoever desires to save his life shall loose it." Here we will come to truly understand that our lives are not in our control. Self preservation is the main imputus within humanity, but placed into Gods Fire, there are no longer any choices, any will, any self preservation. Your just in a situation that only God controls. And this is how God really is.

Hes Loving, humble, gentle, BUT very controling. Very! Don't fool yourself, your life is NOT self determined, and neither is the Lake of Fire.

One thing I have come to know about God, he willnot talk to you, oh but he gets his points accross!  Another then, componant of Gods Fire, real heavy definte influence, often made through suffering. All who would live in Christ, MUST suffer persecution. Or, must be salted with Fire!

The Lake of Fire is situational, prefixed and ordained, just as the firstfruits must burn now, humanity will burn in its time. But we are already burning, humanity is already burning NOW! Already suffering. Thus we need to consider, why would God cause humanity to live in a type of hell now, then they die and  go to a worser hell?

Come on now, think with God. Learn to think like God. The suffering in the Lake of Fire, in your life now, has a purpose.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[The Lake of Fire is situational, prefixed and ordained, just as the firstfruits must burn now, humanity will burn in its time. [/quote]

The Lake of Fire is situational, prefixed and ordained. You may not desire to get in it, but the situation is not of your choice. And the outcome is not about choice. Let me show you another thing. John 13:32, again Jesus;" IF God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and do that instantly!" If God wanted to do things instantly, he could, he certainly holds the power to do that, in such a manner. But Gods will is situational, he is imposing situations on humanity. Blessing and curses, good and evil, or, another true componant of the Lake of Fire!

We just tend to see the evil of it, and not understand that the wheat is growing with the Tare. And the tare imposes on our understanding far more than it should. From this we come up with all kinds of mixed views about whats truly going on. Because we do not truly know God, John 9:55, we do not know what kind of Spirit we are of.

Its a Spirit of Fire, a Lord of the Dragons, a being of Good will, but a being who burns inside. And when you burn inside, when you suffer, its a view of your Fathers inner feelings. God is burning about something, even Jesus was a man of sorrows. We are beings of sorrow.

So something is bothering God, and I think it is the knowledge of evil. Oh God could have created a whole society of beings, and kept evil from them. Which actually he already did in ther angelic community. But God wanted to get this over with, and bring something out.

The creation of humanity is Gods way of dealing with this situation, a situation he still controls very tightly.

But let me continue on that.

Peace.

I think Evil, Bothers God, I do. His heart is purely Good, but this thing of Evil bothers him. And the whole earth moans, because God is bothered by evil.

Now consider this; God is the orgin, or beginning of this whole thing of Evil. Hes dealing with it, because he does not like it. But hes dealing with it. He could have kept it to himself and NEVER shared it with ANYONE he created!

Now look very closely at this point. Jesus in Matt. 12:35;"The Good man out of his Good treasure brings forth what is Good. The evil man brings forth what is evil." This is what men do, but look at what God has done. God has brought into reality death and evil, and done this out of the Goodness of his Heart, because he is NOT evil. So God is gathering the corpse. Jesus in Matt. 24:28;" Wherever the corpse is, the vultures will gather."

God bringing death and evil into a mighty gathering, only to extinguish them in a very powerful manner, which is why he breathed out this great Lake of Fire. Its his exclimation point, his discuss, and his predetermined solution of a thing which bothers him.

But why does Evil bother God? He, a being that shouldnot be bothered.

Lets look at that.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel
But why does Evil bother God? He, a being that shouldnot be bothered.

Lets look at that.

Peace.
/quote]

Again Jesus in Matt. 7:18;" A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." This is why God created a Tree with BOTH fruit. Its a production of his discuss, his  way of dealing with this thing. But conversely an expression of his heart, his wisdom. Gen. 3:5;" For God KNOWS that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you " Will be like God", Knowing Good and Evil."

God wanted to open up Evil, or share it with his creations. Because he knew about it. Its mystery, its oppisition to him. Its very nature.

A REASON for the Great Dragon to breathe the Fire of suffering.

Peace.

[A REASON for the Great Dragon to breathe the Fire of suffering.

Peace.
[/quote]


Now why cordinate this evolution of evil, with the creation of man. Why?  Why bring this into fruitation, combined with bringing many new born sons into glory? In this, is the thinking of God, who remember, is a being of Fire.

In this, is an awful, profound, revelation of what God is investing in humanity.

And this has NEVER been taught! Never revealed, never understood.

And I want to open that up.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 10, 2008, 07:23:28 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 10, 2008, 02:27:58 PM
Dear Mickiel,
I am curious what your thoughts are concerning what I wrote to you. Could you be specific as to what I wrote you?

Peace,
Tony

I have no thoughts on what you wrote. I did read it all.

Peace

O.K. friend, I was just curious if you wanted to dialogue or monologue. Now that I see it is the latter, I won't bother you. Well, I'll try not to bother you with your monologishness  :boyheart:

Quote from: Tony N l

O.K. friend, I was just curious if you wanted to dialogue or monologue. Now that I see it is the latter, I won't bother you. Well, I'll try not to bother you with your monologishness  :boyheart:

Well I appriciate being left in peace, I value that. I like to both dialog and monologue, I enjoy both. But only dialog that intrest me, and I am simply honest about what intrest me. Most places I go, most dialogs that are occuring do not intrest me. Most of whats on television does not intrest me. Most people I meet do not intrest me. Most places I eat do not intrest me. Most new technology does not intrest me.

I see no faults in not being interested in what either someone is saying, or doing. Most new clothes being created, do not intrest me. Most animals do not intrest me.

At this point in my Life, very little intrest me. This is one reason I hope for another Life that does.

Or another conversation  that does.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 17, 2008, 07:03:35 PM

At this point in my Life, very little intrest me. This is one reason I hope for another Life that does.

Or another conversation  that does.

Peace.

Hi Mickiel,


I hope for a better life than the one I have, but I still love the life I have lived and it has been no picnic by any stretch.

I do pray that the depressiveness your experiencing right now is cleared to find many joys in this life.   

The four beast described in Daniel 7, are no doubt in my mind, Dragons. They symbolized Dragons. Deadly, strong, having wings and ressembling Animals. Kind of like a fairy tale, this story is being told as if its relating a tale of Dragons and Fire, at least it is to me. A tale that humanity does not understand fully.

Read on into Daniel 7:9-11;" I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; His vesture was like white snow and his hair like pure wool. His throne " Was Ablaze with Flames", its wheels were a burning Fire."( Notice the imphisis on Fire here)

Vs.10;" A RIVER of Fire was flowing and comming out from before him." A River of Fire was comming out of him or the Throne, both a " Breathing of Fire", something that Dragons do. Thousands were attending him, but none eing consumed by all this obvious Fire. I am convinced that you cannot see God, without seeing Fire, because they are intertwined and one. As is Jesus. The books were opened and the beast was SLAIN, not reborn, not changed, it was destroyed and " Given to the Burning Fire." I think this is the fate of all demons and satan. To be consumed by the Fire of God, that " Comes FROM God."

Now in Revelations water is shown to come from Gods Throne, great rivers of it.

Here is the ontrast in heaven, a great mystical place of Water and Fire. And Beings of water and fire existing there.

Both Gods throne and Jesus throne are ablaze with fire, or constantly burning. Why would a being want to be " In Fire", or on Fire? Or have Fire around them constantly?

Well because they ARE beings of Fire.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[quote author=Paul Hazelwood



Hi Mickiel,


I hope for a better life than the one I have, but I still love the life I have lived and it has been no picnic by any stretch.

I do pray that the depressiveness your experiencing right now is cleared to find many joys in this life.   


[/quote]

Well I am different than you, I hold no Love for the Life I have Lived. And I look for no Joys in the latter half of my Life. I look only for God, and I have yet to find him.

Peace

A great vision given Ezekiel in chapter 10 is of intrest. Great " Coals of Fire" that were between the Great Cherubs is discussed. The Glory OF the Lord went up FROM the Cherub and the temple was FILLED with the Brightness of the Lord, again making perfect sense, Fire and Brightness, or great Light.

Notice verse 5, the wings of the Cherub was so great and Loud, they were heard as far as the " Outer Court", and this was compared to Gods Voice when he Speaks, VERY Loud and Great, not this silent voice that many claim God has spoken to them in.

God is NOT a dull looking being, he is BRIGHT and emits great Glory, just like a great Fire! How is the earth given its Light? By the Great Fire of the Sun. How is the Kingdom of God given its Light, by the great Fire of God. Its just as simple as that.

And I want to go further into that.

Peace.

In Rev. 22:5, Notice carefully latter part of verse. There will no longer be ANY darkness, no need for lamps or the Sun. Now God is Light, or illumination, but notice: the Lord God shall " Illumine THEM!"

Look, this highly suggest to me that God will " Throw his Light ON them, and cause THEM to be beings of Light", or beings of Fire. The children of God themselves will be LIghts, or beings of Glory, which I think means beings of Fire.

Just as Jesus is the " Bright and mourning Star", or a being with such great fire that even space cannot hide him, so shall his people be.

THIS is being Born Again! Not this psudeo born again people are now claiming. The illumination of God being given to you is the true new birth.

Peace.

[quote author=Mickiel

God is NOT a dull looking being, he is BRIGHT and emits great Glory, just like a great Fire! How is the earth given its Light? By the Great Fire of the Sun. How is the Kingdom of God given its Light, by the great Fire of God. Its just as simple as that.

And I want to go further into that.

Peace.
[/quote]

Just imagine looking into the Sun at close range, if, IF you survive the experience, you would be blind and burnt for life, or what would be left of life in you. This is one reason why I believe no human could look at God and Live. Just the rays of the Sun would do damage to you, NOT the Sun itself. So it is with Gods Glory, God himself wouldnot damage you, but you just couldnot handle his Glory comming at you in its brilliance.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 17, 2008, 07:55:54 PM

THIS is being Born Again! Not this psudeo born again people are now claiming. The illumination of God being given to you is the true new birth.

Peace.

Dear Mickiel,
Being "born again" has to do with Israel. When Jesus told Nicodemus "ye must be born again," he did not mean "you, Nicodemus, must be born again," but meant that "ye [plural] must be born again," and that Nicodemus, being a teacher in Israel should have known that meant that "Israel, as a nation, was to be born in a day." In other words, Israel was to come into being in one day (see Isaiah 66:8).

"If I tell you of terrestrial things and you are not believing, how shall you be believing if I should be telling you of the celestial? (Jesus Christ to Nicodemus, John 3:12).

Quote from: Tony N on October 20, 2008, 08:23:25 PM

Quote from: Mickiel on October 17, 2008, 07:55:54 PM

THIS is being Born Again! Not this psudeo born again people are now claiming. The illumination of God being given to you is the true new birth.

Peace.

Dear Mickiel,
Being "born again" has to do with Israel. When Jesus told Nicodemus "ye must be born again," he did not mean "you, Nicodemus, must be born again," but meant that "ye [plural] must be born again," and that Nicodemus, being a teacher in Israel should have known that meant that "Israel, as a nation, was to be born in a day." In other words, Israel was to come into being in one day (see Isaiah 66:8).

"If I tell you of terrestrial things and you are not believing, how shall you be believing if I should be telling you of the celestial? (Jesus Christ to Nicodemus, John 3:12).

Well my views on being born again have been written here quite plainly, and I think enough times for people to understand them. Being born again has nothing to do with  Israel, or anythingelse on earth, for that matter. Its not an earthly thing. Its not a human initiated thing.

Its a God thing.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 21, 2008, 12:22:31 AM

Quote from: Tony N on October 20, 2008, 08:23:25 PM

Quote from: Mickiel on October 17, 2008, 07:55:54 PM

THIS is being Born Again! Not this psudeo born again people are now claiming. The illumination of God being given to you is the true new birth.

Peace.

Dear Mickiel,
Being "born again" has to do with Israel. When Jesus told Nicodemus "ye must be born again," he did not mean "you, Nicodemus, must be born again," but meant that "ye [plural] must be born again," and that Nicodemus, being a teacher in Israel should have known that meant that "Israel, as a nation, was to be born in a day." In other words, Israel was to come into being in one day (see Isaiah 66:8).

"If I tell you of terrestrial things and you are not believing, how shall you be believing if I should be telling you of the celestial? (Jesus Christ to Nicodemus, John 3:12).

Well my views on being born again have been written here quite plainly, and I think enough times for people to understand them. Being born again has nothing to do with  Israel, or anythingelse on earth, for that matter. Its not an earthly thing. Its not a human initiated thing.

Its a God thing.

Peace.

Mickiel, I say this in a loving manner: Since you do not understand the earthly matters, you cannot understand the heavenly or celestial.

Being born again is an earthly matter dealing with Israel being begotten anew.

That is what Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about. Jesus then told Nic that if he didn't understand the earthly, it was useless to tell him about the heavenly matters. And you want us to believe you when you write on these gnostic "hyper spiritual" matters of yours when you don't even understand the earthly matters?

[quote author=Tony N link

. And you want us to believe you when you write on these gnostic "hyper spiritual" matters of yours when you don't even understand the earthly matters?
[/quote]

You are mistaken, I do not want you to believe anything I say, it matters not to me what you believe.

And I hold no intrest in the earthly matters. I do not write to gather the belief of others, nor their support. I write for one reason, and one alone; To express myself. Its just that simple, to get out, whats in me. Nothing more, nothingless.

Why would I be trying to get you to believe me, if I have already told you that what you have to say does not intrest me? If I was trying to get people to believe me, I would pacify them and take intrest in them.

I do neither.

I don't care what others think about my Spiritual Views.

Not one bit.

Peace.

QuoteI don't care what others think about my Spiritual Views.

Not one bit.

Peace.

Dear Mickiel,
I realize, friend, that you don't care what others think about your views. I would not go so far as to call them "spiritual views" though for that is only in the eye of the beholder. I say that lovingly, by the way.

Being "born again" is an earthly matter concerning Israel being begotten in a day.

The sad thing about all of this is you are influencing other members of the body of Christ with your gnostic views. You see, Mickiel, it is beside the point if you don't care what others think of your "spiritual views." The point you should be concerned about is if you are correct in your views which you are teaching to the body of Christ.

For you to say:

Quote"Just as Jesus is the " Bright and mourning Star", or a being with such great fire that even space cannot hide him, so shall his people be.

THIS is being Born Again! Not this psudeo born again people are now claiming. The illumination of God being given to you is the true new birth."

is not the truth. It is against what Jews was telling Nicodemus.

That is not what being "born again" means and is not what Jesus meant when He was speaking with Nicodemus.

Do you not care whether you are correct in your teaching to the body of Christ?

Tony

Quote from: Tony N
Do you not care whether you are correct in your teaching to the body of Christ?

Tony

/quote]

Again I say as simply as I can, I don't care what you think about how I think. I just don't. I don't care about your fears about what I am doing, because I have greater cares that overide that kind of stuff. I don't care about this worlds condition, because I hold a greater care about the future of this world, which superseeds what I see going on now.

This is why I don't care what you think about my views, reguradless of weather you see them as spiritual or not.

I don't care about your mind, because a greater care has gripped mine.

Peace.

I think part of being caught up in the cares of this world, is impressing your care about things in the wrong direction. In example Mark 4:19. If someone has planted a thought that God wants to grow, God himself will increase on that thought. So I don't care about what I read, because I am under the influence of a power that will not give what I read any growth, outside of what he so pleases, so I neither worry about what I read, or what others read. Because there is a Spirit that sees to that discernment. If I show worry about that, then I think that speaks for itself, I then don't trust in that Spirit.

People start worrying about who is teaching what, and how others receive it, just do not understand the power of God. God has this thing in complette order, it is we who are behind. Too much worry about deceit can choke the word and it becomes unfruitful. Some actually looking to help others, out of their misguided concern, choke themselves and others along with them, on their crusade for teaching their own truth. This principle is repeated in Luke 8:14. They are choked because they care too much about the discernment of people, not  counting on the power of God to do its Job.

Part of the assurance of God, is that HE MUST bring us along , IN the Truth, and he knows the obsticles iunvolved in this. He set those in place too. He created the obsticle course, he created the oppisition, and it is HE who beckons us onward anyhow. NOT to remove the course, or somehow keep us from all these different teachings, but to GUIDE us THROUGH IT! But unknowing believers, want to eliminate the course, and set up their own way.

So they accuse others of being false teachers, and use their own discernment, to pick apart the Truth.

The Truth that THEY cannot see and understand, which leads to belief.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 21, 2008, 06:31:52 PM

So they accuse others of being false teachers, and use their own discernment, to pick apart the Truth.

Peace.

Who is "they"?
Mickiel, please. You are incorrect, no matter how you cut it on your teaching of "born again." It is not just a matter of "If I (Mickiel) am wrong, God is big enough to make the truth grow." It is a matter of you being shown you are incorrect and you just poopooing that and going on with your spiel.

May I suggest something? Before you being a teacher of the body of Christ, do your homework first. Be "an unashamed worker correctly cutting the Word."

If I may continue with another look at Gods Fire.

I want to show you another mystery. Study Job 41. A most interesting chapter. Now I have expressed my belief in a Dragon tendency of God, and he reveals this ALL throughtout Scripture. Beings breathing Fire. Job 41 can be misleading, because it gives the Impression that the " Leviathan" in verse 1, is a great Fish. But listen, really it is a great DRAGON! He cannot be caught like any other fish with hooks, vs 5-8. Vs 9, our interpitation of this being is false!

In vs 12, it has Mighty strength and a well ordered frame. 13, its skin is like Armor. See the Dragon in this.

Vs 14-15, it has teeth and strong scales. 16-17, it can breathe underwater.

Look at verse 18, " His sneezes flash forth LIGHT, its eyelids like that of the mourning, (or Light, or Fire.)

Vs 19-20; Out of his mouth go burning torches; Sparks of Fire leap forth. Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes.

Look, this is a dragon, and a great one. I don't care who accusses me of false teaching, I show nothing that is not in Gods word. Its just not in peoples minds.

Vs 21; " His breath kindles coals, and A FLAME goes forth FROM HIS MOUTH!"

Vs 31" He makes the depths boil like a pot."

Vs 33;" NOTHING on earth is like him." A being made without fear. " He is KING over ALL THE SONS of PRIDE." Interesting being, believe it or not.

But this being is NOT something God " Made up in fantasy to Job", because this is GOD describing this being." God created this Dragon. Takes GREAT PRIDE in Dragons.

And I am going to get back to this later and show you why. But I need to go through some other points first.

Peace.

It's easy not to care Mickiel, it says nothing of spiritual growth other than it being stunted.


This does not mean we shift with the wind because someone says we are wrong.   I care that I say what is glorifying to God.  I do not fear placing my current thoughts out there,  but I care.  And have seen that I was wrong on many occassions and repented for that.  Can God use what I said wrong to others?  Of course, does that mean I then justify not caring what I say, whether I am wrong or right?  No.

It's easy to shut off others in the name of seeking God only, but it is a mask of the symptoms that can be deeper in the mind.

The warnings in the bible are not about rectifying physical things by pointing out that which is physically in our reality as we know it.

It is the bridge to correction that sees that the care for the physical is the lesser.


God says if we cannot care for the lesser (physical)  , then what use will we be to the greater (spiritual)?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 22, 2008, 05:15:47 PM

It's easy not to care Mickiel, it says nothing of spiritual growth other than it being stunted.

I have made no claims of Spiritual growth, I have consistantly claimed that I do not know God, because that is simply true. I have claimed that I do not have his Spirit, because that is simply true. And I don't have a need to mask my sinful symptoms, I hold plently of sins, if you need to know them, simply ask and I will share them, if that is what you need from me.

I am growing in Grace and Knowledge, nothingelse at this moment, I have not progressed beyond being a sinner in need of his God. I am growing in Grace, or the need for forgiveness of my sins. I am growing in Grace, or the consistant revelation of my sins, and the consistant need of God to help me out of my weakness, and forgive me during this long progress.

I am Growing in Grace, or the constant revelation of my sins to myself, but will share that if others need to hear it. I am Growing in Grace, or the constant awareness that God is not removing certain sins from me, but consistantly forgiving me for them. I am Growing in Grace, or the truth in my life that this Grace is sifficent for me, even though I would rather have perfection in my life and complette obedience. But I am only given the Grace, and the Grace grows symectrically according to my sins, not canceling them out of my characther, but eraseing them from my condemnation.

I am Growing in Knowledge, but not the Knowledge that this world is Growing in, my Growth is heading off in its own direction, not fueled by me. Goodness, I would rather join the crowd, but my knowledge is not growing toward the group, but away from them.

This is my life experience, my understanding, and I don't care what others think about it. I seperate myself from the foolishness and insanity, so that it willnot adhere to me. I am not called to preach to and teach this world, nor a church. I am not called at all. I would like to be called, and be a part of a group, but its just not happening according to my will.

If I had my way, I would be just like everyonelse. But I am not getting my way with God.  If I got my way with God, I would never sin again. Well I'm still sinning, and still not getting my way. I hunger and thirst for righteousness so bad, I sometimes would rather be dead, than be a sinner.

You don't know me or my heart, so I couldcareless what you say about me.

Peace.

  What I am saying is in the spirit of correction, claiming I do not know you or your heart is indeed true, but beside the point.   

Christians gather within the walls of their buildings and try to build this realm apart from the physical world and thats not what the scriptures are talking about.

Jesus went among those the christians tend to try to stay away from unless they are on some mission to squeeze the sin out of em.   What I am talking about is when someone doesn't care about anything but their own direction is is not what believers are called to do.    I do not have to know you to make a comment on what it appears to be that your saying.

You may find it more comfortable if no one talks to you, but I used to be that way, and knowing someones heart or not, we should encourage one another to seek breaking those chains.  It is not the path of believers to isolate themselves.

It is words for that purpose only,  I can't make anyone do anything, nor am I trying, but I will not sit by and say nothing, if I feel something needs to be said.

The path to righteousness is not isolation from the world.  It is learning how to live in it and not be captured by it.   Isolation, emotionally or physically is bondage and of the world, so sometimes trying to avoid it, you do not see the cage it becomes.

You don't know me, nor how I spend my life, you just assume because I choose not to talk to people about certain views they have, that I am an isolationist. I hold two full time jobs, one is a counselor for the Federal Board of Prisioners. I counsel these 5 nights a week, and teach classes twice a week. I would rather do that, than to pascify christian cinicisim about my personage. I choose not to deeply engage you and TonyN, and from that you assume the things that you do. I simply hold no intrest in you and he, and simply told you that.

I write at 9 different websites, commune with who I please and ignore who I please. Save your correction, or the need to correct, for those who are interested in the correction.

I am not interested in the gatherings of Christians, and I am very at ease with just talking to myself on websites. If what I am saying gathers no intrest, I stop the monolouge. If it gathers intrest, I continue. At times it gathers much intrest, and I stop it anyway. But I NEVER continue talking when there is no intrest. I never do that.

And I never let what others like yourself, who seek to correct me, deter what I am saying.

Peace.

You are correct and I was out of line.  Sorry.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 23, 2008, 12:46:35 AM

I have made no claims of Spiritual growth, I have consistantly claimed that I do not know God, because that is simply true. I have claimed that I do not have his Spirit, because that is simply true. And I don't have a need to mask my sinful symptoms, I hold plently of sins, if you need to know them, simply ask and I will share them, if that is what you need from me.

Dear Mickiel,
I appreciate your oppenness.
I am curious how one who does not know God nor have His spirit can teach those who do?

You keep saying you are growing in knowledge. That is good!

I do applaud you for searching the Scriptures. Do you want to know God and receive His spirit?

[quote author=Tony N
Dear Mickiel,
I appreciate your oppenness.
I am curious how one who does not know God nor have His spirit can teach those who do?

You keep saying you are growing in knowledge. That is good!

I do applaud you for searching the Scriptures. Do you want to know God and receive His spirit?
[/quote]



Who am I teaching? Search this website or anyother, and show me where I have claimed to be a teacher of God? Just show me. Produce anything I have said about teaching for God. I am curious as to where you have come up with this teaching stuff. I openly share my views, I am not a teacher of God. How can a person teach for God, and don't even know God themselves? I grow tired of these false accusations, which is just one reason I do not like speaking with you.

You have said that I am a teacher far more than I have claimed it. It is YOU who are mistaken, and you take your confusion as a means to question me about things I have NEVER claimed! Never even stated.

Again , show me where I have claimed to be a teacher of God. Now when you cannot find that, then will you be able to face the truth about your own imaginations? YOU imagine, that I believe myself to be a teacher of God, YOU assume because I post and write my views, that I fancy myself a teacher of God.

I teach carnal people about the reality of comming out of jail, and preparing themselves for society, I teach nothingelse. Now, God MAY call me to teach, but he has not now. And he may never. Others have tried to label me a teacher of God, but I pay no attention to THEIR claims, its not a claim of mine. Just as I pay no attention to those like yourself, who accuse me of portraying myself as a teacher of God. I am not going to even entertain the silly question of if I want to know God and receive his Spirit, because its a quesation based in foolishness.

And I want nothing to do with your foolishness.

Peace.

This is just another reason why I dislike speaking a lot to people about Spiritual matters, and perhaps why God will never call me to teach for him, because he knows how much I dislike conversations with certain people with " Things in their Spirit."

Later on in the year, I am going to share a post I am looking into entitled " Limit your exposure to Insanity." I am thinking on shareing it, and oh how I got a hankering to share it. Shareing is NOT teaching, people have just tried to make a ministry out of shareing, as they make a ministry out of everythingelse.

People will sidetrack you, mostly because of THEIR insecuritys. Distract you, and try to get you to focus on THEM, and get off of the message that THEY dislike!

And So I am going to get back on track, with a little more on Gods Fire, and close this thing out, because the distractions irritate me a little too much.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 24, 2008, 01:06:10 AM

People will sidetrack you, mostly because of THEIR insecuritys. Distract you, and try to get you to focus on THEM, and get off of the message that THEY dislike!

This is true and God is burning out of me the insecurity that when someone does not want to talk with me, that there is a problem with me.   But that is not true as I am learning.

Mickiel,
Take a chill pill dude.

I never said you were a teacher of God and don't believe you are. The point is that if you come to a Christian message board and post stuff like you've been posting you are teaching Christians whether you don't like the term or not.

You are blind and trying to teach the seeing.

Take my earlier writing to you as encouragement and take the burr out from under your saddle.

Tony

Quote from: Tony N link=topic=3254.
Take my earlier writing to you as encouragement and take the burr out from under your saddle.

Tony
/quote]


I don't need anything from you.

If I may continue with just a little more on Gods fire. I showed in Revelations where God will make his people to be " Lights themselves", which I interpited as meaning being like God, or a being of Fire. God himself said in Hebrews 1:7;" Who makes his Angels Winds, and his ministers a FLAME OF FIRE." The terminology here  literally suggest a transformation from one reality to another, enabling the human, or even an Angel, to " Be and Do" other things not before.

Making his Ministers a Flame of Fire. Interesting.

Rev. 1:14, 2:18 and 19:12, all describe even Jesus very eyes to be like Flames of Fire. Jesus is already a Minister of Flame. Eyes like Flames, voices that hew out Flames of Fire, Ps.29:7. Fire beings. David said, or this could be David, God makes " Flaming Fire his Ministers." Which I think conversely means God will make his Ministers Fire. In Gen.3:24, A magical " Flaming Sword", guards the way to the tree of Life. Nothing can get in from any direction.

Gods Fire is used for Change, for insight, for protection, and for transformation, as well as destruction, judgement and rebuke.

Again Isaiah 66:15-16;"For behold, the Lord will Come IN Fire and his chariots like the Whirlwind, to render his anger with Fury, and " Rebuke with Flames of Fire". For the Lord will execute Judgement by Fire, ( This is the Lake of Fire). Notice it says that those slain by the Lord will be many. Interesting statement, I am not sure what it entails or means.

Anyhow, just a little more on this and I will close it out.

Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on October 24, 2008, 02:03:30 AM

Quote from: Tony N link=topic=3254.
Take my earlier writing to you as encouragement and take the burr out from under your saddle.

Tony
/quote]


I don't need anything from you.

:winkgrin: :happy3: :laughing7: Okey  dokey!  :laughing7: :happy3: :winkgrin:

I wanted to close this post out, I have enjoyed this topic, reading it over myself, I have learned much.

Gods Consciousness is a Fire, a type of Fire that burns. Flows. And his Conscious is a unique part of him, always with him. Always going before him. And it will one day burn within us all.

Peace.