A little more on Gods Fire.

[Mickiel]

Now if you read Ezekiel the first chapter, it is a description of the Glory of the Lord, just look at the being this describes; Ezekiel was shown a most mysterious being. It came from the " North", which the bible often refers to as the direction that God comes from. A Great cloud in vs.4, with Fire flashing forth CONTINUALLY! Again the conotation of a dragon like being. A Bright Light around it. And in " Its Mist", something glowing. The being resembled a human form, or it had legs and arms and a torso, but  more than one head. But each head had four faces. It had legs and feet like a calfs hoof, that gleamed like bronze, which John saw Jesus feet as looking in Revelation.

It had four wings. Under their wings were human hands, not birdlike claws. The wings touched one another, so they can retrack. All four faces were human, were faces of a Lion,  all four had the face of a bull, and a face of an Egale. Multiple faces, which denotes multiple minds, and more than one consciousness. Many consciousness. Many minds.

Vs.13, in the mist of the LIVING beings there was something BURNING like coals of Fire, like torches darting back and forth. The Fire was bright, and Lightning was flashing from the Fire. Listen, this is so much like Gods throne, it should begin to become obvious to your comprehension. God could very well be like this being, look like this being. It is NOT out of the picture, and I personally believe God is either exactly like this, or very simular to it.

I won't go further into the chapter, but read it and see for yourself. I think Fire to God, is what blood is to us. Its just in him. And when God wants to burn something, its actually him breathing on it. And Jesus " Breathed the Holy Spirit" onto his disciples. So the connotation of being " Salted with Fire", or even the Lake of Fire, can truly take on new meaning.

A meaning of change, but change associated with pain, from the burn.

And I want to look into that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Can you even imagine what it would be like for any of us to actually look upon a being of this caliber? Talk about being scared to death, good greif man, this thing is very real. Multiple heads and faces, faces of Lions and bulls and egales. Wings and great flashing Fire! But ALWAYS this presence of Fire! Brillant bright Fire. BURNING Fire, not inactive Fire, continous burning Fire, OR, the Fire that never is Quenched!

Listen, the Fire that never is Quenched, means that God can never die! It just really means Eternity that is God! Fire that is God, and this knowledge IS the Tree of Good and Evil! Or a Fire that God set, or breathed, or planted. And Gods Fire can either consume, or just burn, and we have to begin to understand that difference.

Fire can be a trial, or an experience that burns you, but does not consume you. It could hurt you, but not destroy you. Conversely, it can destroy parts of you, but continually  burn other parts of you, and not consume those parts.

So if God baptises you with his Fire, or breathes on you, its just going to be an experience of change.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

And what better experience than personal. God burns within me a rage, I ask for righteousness, pure obedience, yet he gives me the weakness. This weakness is the God I know. My heart desires pureness, wholesome understanding, yet he gives me weakness. And insight to the weakness, the Fire. My lungs burn with this weakness. I am consumed. My death presented to me.

Yet I am compelled to speak on things I do not understand. I experenice it, but yet do not agree with my personal experience of it, I want purness of righteousness.

The Fire of God burns now! It gets real with you. Bares you. Pops open your mind and slays you.

Renders all knowledge meaningless.

And from this meaningless, will come the future of light.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

A little more then on Gods Fire.

Gods Fire is a reality, forming and shapeing anything. He himself is shaped of Fire. Look at 2 Kings 2:11;" Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of Fire and Horses of Fire which seperated the two of them, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."

You get to Heaven through Fire, but notice the Fire takes all kinds of shapes and forms, manipulating matter and reality itself, becomming Gods will on Fire. Forming a Chariot, a Horse, but still is Fire from God, yet the Fire becomes somethingelse, morphed into its own unique reality that God sees for its moment.

And this is how God gets into your mind, he burns a thought. That thought can become a reality, or just simmer into your life slowly.

But its Fire burning. Fire shut up within you, and you just can't contain it.

And I want to continue on this remarkable Fire.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

What is frightening about God, or Fire, is the tendency it has to hurt and destroy. Although much Good can come from it, so then can what we perceive as Evil. Jeremiah 21:12;" That my wrath may NOT go forth like Fire, and burn with none to extinguish it."

So you see, If God wants the Fire to burn forever, there is absolutely nothing anyone could do about it! Only he could put its tendency to punish out. But he uses it to create, to substain, to punish or to destroy. He does everything with it.

Because he is the Great unknown Dragon.


And we will bow before him in Great Awe!

This Majestic Being of Fire.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

The Great Dragon God, such terms many cannot even perceive as of now, they think God is human. Psalms 18:8;" Smoke went up out of his nostrils, and Fire from his Mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it."

You may think this is symbolism, but it is far more than that.

The Great Dragon is comming, and he will look nothing like you would imagine.

His Heart is Fire, and it continually Burns. People think they know God. They don't know God, they don't comprehend the Dragon of Fire. There vision of God is nothing like him.

God burns and swells in flame and takes awesome flight, soars in an awe inspiring movement, and fills the atmosphere with his Power. Erupting in Space, his Power to create and substain forever. Wings of Glory, Power unmatched. The ultimate beginning, the Power that is.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Isaiah 66:15;" For behold, The Lord will come IN Fire!" In Fire, ON Fire, set ablaze himself!

Listen, God exist IN Fire. Its ALWAYS with him, because it IS him! The Spirit Torch. The Great Dragon of Old!

Now let me go into why satan is called a Great Dragon, and how this relates to the Spirit world, and contrast Gods creation of Fire and its ability to hurt or heal and help.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

In Rev.12:9, satan is called the Great Dragon, the serpent of Old. And this is an issue of, in human understanding, matter- anti matter, or contrast that are as they are. One exist, to contrast the other, but in direct oppisite. One Dragon exist, because another first existed. But one is " Anti", and this is the reality of the anti christ. Anti, means opposed, oppisition that relates directly to the position, although they are different in nature. But their is a relation. One exist in immunization which counteract the toxins of the other. One infects, the other counteracts the toxin. This is the true nature and reality of good and evil. As God designed it.

The Great God, or Great Dragon, created another Dragon to counteract him, or be in oppisition. Both Dragons of Old, both Great, but both in oppisition to each other. This is how Great the Darkness is, it had to be great enough to counteract God himself, so it had to be two things; Great, and a Dragon of Old, or it couldnot possibily counteract. The Bacteria had to be great enough to demand diloution, but not inhibit its own destruction. And this is why satan was destined to be a great dragon, to counteract another great dragon.

And I want to go into that.  Peace.

[Mickiel]

Look closer at Rev. 12:9, notice the listed componants of satan. He is Great. He is a Dragon. He is Old. He deceives the WHOLE World! Contrasting that, God is also Great. He is a Dragon. He is Old, and he will Save the WHOLE World!. Each exact contrast, or matter-anti-matter, both unique, both awesome, both dealing in Fire! AND, dealing OUT Fire! The strength of the Lake of Fire has been attributed to satans success, NOT Gods, which is an error in contrast. The Power of this eternal hell fire, has been attributed to the success of satan, and not God. Not God, or anti God, opposed to God, but related to God. The reason why the hell doctrine is so powerful of an unfluence, is because of the bilateral power afforded to satan, from Gods own demand. It just had to be.

Dealing with this level of power, this level of oppisition, both on the same tree, or both from the same orgin, both had to be ABLE to counteract, or hold up to each other, or there is no oppisition, it would be a wash out, if one outweighed the other at all times. So a " BALANCE" was  given. Notice Rev. 6:5, a black horse and the rider had scales in his hands. A pair of them, or more than one opition to weigh. More ability to measure, or deceive. Ability to confuse religions, or the first seal. Ability to start war, or the second seal. To unleash famine, or the third seal, and cause death, the fourth seal. And so on, study all the seals, or the realitys of power given to the dragon. And how the dragon has used this power, used it because it should use it.

The power is great, alluring and sedcuctive, mesmerising and blinding. Charged to the negative, and I think satan is Gods Power charged to the negative.

And let me go into that interesting aspect.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

God himself weaved the world into being, through Christ, his intermediate, or his active hand of deliverance. Jesus had to deliver, or create, what God demands. There was no choice here, it had to be! He was the FIRSTBORN, or the first being God looked to for deliverence, of both his Holy Will, and predestined actions! Christ IS the cornerstone, on him is invested the true Power of God! Which is WHY Jesus IS a being of MANY very sad realitys! Sad on one end, Joyful on another. Invested in him is many sorrows, much pain and heartbreak, because it had to be. On his shoulders was invested this reality of both worlds. Deadly consequence, Joyful results. He had to go into both worlds, death and Life as well. He the first, and why WE must travel through it as well. ALL must be tainted, or breathed on, with this Fire! All must enter into the Lake, and swim.

Looking on it in this Light, let me go into the Lake of Fire, just a little more.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Psalms 50:3;"May our God come and not keep silent. Fire devours before him, and it is tempestuous around him." Tempestuous, or meaning that the Fire belongs to God, or even resembles him. Very stormy and passionate, very intense, but tuned and under perfect control. Tempered temperature.

I have read where someone here on this site stated that God is the Lake of Fire, oh how true that Is. I defintely agree with that. Although I disagree publically with the notion that there are people right now indubed with his Holy Spirit Fire, because they do not resemble God, only claim to, I believe he can turn up the tempterture with a human, take them to another level. There is NO such thing as another level, that does not show the indications of it. No such creature, it will reflect what is burning within. It will NOT be the same.

Once you belong to this baptism, you WILL resemble God! NO human resembles God! Its complettely out of the question in this physical world. It is impossible to hold physical resemblance with God, flesh cannot, willnot resemble God! And willnot inherit the Kingdom now within, you simply cannot be a human who has the Kingdom within. You do not know what you are believing about Gods fire. So your belief has been burnt by the other dragon, he who masquerades as god. The same dragon who has the most popular influence concerning the Lake of Fire.

And I want to touch on that.

Peace.

[Tony N]

I have read where someone here on this site stated that God is the Lake of Fire, oh how true that Is. I defintely agree with that.

Hi Mickiel,
Do you believe that God is death? I'm not asking you if God brings death to the old humanity but, Is God death.

Also, if the lake of fire is for wrongs done, why would they be cast into God? And if God is the lake of fire, then it must be that all those in the New City Jerusalem, the apostles and and all the nations who are not in the lake of fire must find themselves outside of God.

[martincisneros]

I have read where someone here on this site stated that God is the Lake of Fire, oh how true that Is. I defintely agree with that.

Hi Mickiel,
Do you believe that God is death? I'm not asking you if God brings death to the old humanity but, Is God death.

Also, if the lake of fire is for wrongs done, why would they be cast into God? And if God is the lake of fire, then it must be that all those in the New City Jerusalem, the apostles and and all the nations who are not in the lake of fire must find themselves outside of God.

That's something that I never felt like I got a very good, Biblical, answer on or to on that Lake of Fire thread that got a lot of attention a while back.  If the last enemy to be destroyed is death, and the Lake of Fire is the second death, then where's the room for the over-romanticization in saying that God is the Lake of Fire?  Is God the last enemy that shall be put under foot?  Is God what's been separating lost souls from God, from godliness, from goodness, from holiness, from righteousness, from peace, and from joy?  God is fire, and being a Pentecostal/Charismatic, I've experienced first hand His manifestation of Himself as fire, but there's a distinction in the Scriptures between God being a fire and God being our life and God's Written Word being our life, and the Lake of Fire and Brimstone which is the Second Death.  I can work with the Lake of Fire having some, much, most, or all application in this life because I'm no longer strictly a futurist in my understanding of prophecy with no wiggle room after having spent a few months totally binging on the book of Revelation, but to me there's a distinct difference between anything that's even remotely labeled "death" and God.

[Tony N]

Excellent points Martin.

The question which needs to be asked is this:
What is literal and what is a figure of speech?

"God is spirit . . . ." (John 4:24)

It seems to me that God literally is spirit.
But what about God being a consuming fire?

"our God is also a consuming fire." (Heb 12:29)

I believe that is a metaphore. A metaphore is where X is compared to Y and where X is said to be Y.

God is not like spirit but is spirit. God can't literaly be a consuming fire for He already is said to be spirit. Spirit is not fire. Therefore God being a consuming fire is a metaphore.

I liked what you said about the second death being the enemy. God is not the enemy. And God will not be destroyed or abolished per 1 Cor.15:26.

[WhiteWings]

but to me there's a distinct difference between anything that's even remotely labeled "death" and God.

Destroying death is life...
Before God started creating there was no death. Now there is death. So I think it's fair to say there is a link.
God is death is the half truth. The LoF is about death of sin. God declares death to sin not to His creation.
He also uncreates/kills the process of death.
So IMO all those death aspects are positive aspects.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=Tony N
Hi Mickiel,
Do you believe that God is death? I'm not asking you if God brings death to the old humanity but, Is God death.

Also, if the lake of fire is for wrongs done, why would they be cast into God? And if God is the lake of fire, then it must be that all those in the New City Jerusalem, the apostles and and all the nations who are not in the lake of fire must find themselves outside of God.
[/quote]

God is not Death, but he is responsible for its existence. Or you can say, " He opened death up", or brought it into reality, and locked its hold on human life. In Rev.1:18 Jesus said that he has the " Keys of Death", meaning he now has the power to turn it off, or bring it to an end. God is the beginning of Death, and will be the end of it, meaning he is simply responsible for it.

Simular with the Lake of Fire, the Lake came from God. God breathed it into existence, it came from inside of him. God is responsible for the Lakes existence, and thus responsible for any and everything placed into it.

Anything that has eternity, came from God. Period. There are no exceptions to this, none that I undserstand. The Lake of Fire is Gods Blood, you have to ask yourself what will occur when a human is placed into Gods Living Blood? A transfusion will occur. An life ending and new life beginning will occur. A Holy Baptism, a New Birth, a whole new experience, which some of us are trying to claim now.

So the Lake of Fire is misunderstood, as is the New Birth, and the giving of the Spirit. Everyone will be salted with Fire, or is destined to burn with Gods Blood on them, in them, no matter who claims that they will be changed without fire. Spirit beings, are Fire beings. This fire is the energy of eternity, the Power of God. Being cast into God, is being cast into Power. It may hurt, but I think moreso because of the ultimate surprise of the experience, not some kind of tourturus pain inflicted.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Psalms 29:7;" The voice of the Lord hews out Flames of Fire." This is how the lake of fire came to be, and came from. God exhaled it in one great breath. This is the kind of being God is. Notice 2Thess. 1:7, Jesus is returning from heaven with his Mighty angels " In Flaming Fire." This is not metaphor or symbolism, its exact description of Beings and a comming event. They are Beings of Fire, comming from a Great Place of Fire, Heaven, Gods Lair, the abode of the Great Dragon. And I will go into the Dragons Lair tommorrow, the Great place of Fire.

I read where someone stated that The Spirit is not Fire. You know, there is nothing I can do to reveal scripture to anyone, because the evidence of Spirit and Fire, is all throughout the bible.

Its everywhere in it, because the Fire is everywhere God is.

The Holy Spirit IS Fire. Spirit beings ARE beings of Fire. There is no seperation. That which is Spirit, is Fire. Its just a whole new existence. Thats why they can fly, because they are weightless and energy. Thats why they are beings of Light and Glow, because they are burning. But not being consumed.

Peace.

[Tony N]

[quote author=Tony N
Hi Mickiel,
Do you believe that God is death? I'm not asking you if God brings death to the old humanity but, Is God death.

Also, if the lake of fire is for wrongs done, why would they be cast into God? And if God is the lake of fire, then it must be that all those in the New City Jerusalem, the apostles and and all the nations who are not in the lake of fire must find themselves outside of God.

Mickiel replied: God is not Death, but he is responsible for its existence. Or you can say, " He opened death up", or brought it into reality, and locked its hold on human life. In Rev.1:18 Jesus said that he has the " Keys of Death", meaning he now has the power to turn it off, or bring it to an end. God is the beginning of Death, and will be the end of it, meaning he is simply responsible for it.

Tony, Dear Mickiel, not to start a fight or anything, just kind of trying to figure this whole thing out here.  First you wrote that God is the lake of fire. But now you seem to be back pedalling and stating God is not death. The Bible says that the lake of fire is death (the second death). If the Bible says that the lake of fire is death and you say God is the lake of fire, then it is most logical (from the brains God gave us) to formulate that God must be death. But now you say God is not death. Therefore, if, according to you, God is not death, then it logically follows that God is not the lake of fire.
I don't know why you made a proper noun out of "death" when you wrote that "Jesus has the keys of Death." Maybe you didn't mean to? He has not only the keys of death but the keys of death and of the unseen. I would imagine that the keys of death and of the unseen are vivification bringing immortality and incorruption.

To state that God is responsible for death is not remotely to be equated with "God is death." I believe you see that from what you wrote above. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Mickiel wrote: Simular with the Lake of Fire, the Lake came from God. God breathed it into existence, it came from inside of him. God is responsible for the Lakes existence, and thus responsible for any and everything placed into it.

Tony: O.K. I can live with that, Mickiel. I agree that anyone interred within that death is solely due to God's grand plan for each person. But if an automobile comes about from out of my mind and onto the drafting table and then to the engineers and to the factory and the end product is the automobile, that does not mean the automobile and I are one and the same. The automobile is not my blood. Anyone that rides in my automobile does not ride in me even if the automobile came from my creative mind. The lake of fire originally came out of God yet came through Christ. God is the source and Christ the channel. Therefore if the lake of fire is God's blood it must also be Christ's blood as well (which it isn't).

Mickiel wrote: Anything that has eternity, came from God. Period. There are no exceptions to this, none that I undserstand. The Lake of Fire is Gods Blood, you have to ask yourself what will occur when a human is placed into Gods Living Blood? A transfusion will occur. An life ending and new life beginning will occur. A Holy Baptism, a New Birth, a whole new experience, which some of us are trying to claim now.

Tony: Now we are entering into philosophical matters when speaking of things eternal. The Bible never states that anything is eternal. It never even states specifically that God is eternal or never had a beginning.
Now you state that the lake of fire is God's blood. So God's blood is death for the Bible says the lake of fire is death. Death is an enemy. It is not a means by which a person enjoys God's presence. Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." In other words all who are dead to God, let them bury the ones who are literally dead yet you follow me. The ones "alive" to God will follow Christ. The dead to God are at enmity to Him. So if God's blood does that to a person, what good is it? Likewise, the two widows of 1 Timothy 5 has one that is alive to God and one that, though living is dead (to God) 1 Tim.5:6. The one that is dead has no need of God and is oblivious to God. She, while alive, is dead to God. See how death is a bad thing?

Mickiel wrote: So the Lake of Fire is misunderstood, as is the New Birth, and the giving of the Spirit. Everyone will be salted with Fire, or is destined to burn with Gods Blood on them, in them, no matter who claims that they will be changed without fire. Spirit beings, are Fire beings. This fire is the energy of eternity, the Power of God. Being cast into God, is being cast into Power. It may hurt, but I think moreso because of the ultimate surprise of the experience, not some kind of tourturus pain inflicted.

Peace.
[/quote]

Tony, dear Mickiel, I believe you are deeply steeped in philosophy (I say that kindly by the way. Please don't be offended).  :thumbsup:  I agree with you that the lake of fire is not "some kind of tortuous pain inflicted." It is death. But death is  unconsciousness and lacks life. The lake of fire is called "the second death" not "God's blood." Those in the lake of fire are outside the holy city wherein resides God and the Lamb (as a very special showing of God's presence). Of course God fills heaven and earth for "in Him we are moving and living and are." But those in the lake of fire, the death are not in God's presence. They are not enjoying God's presence. They are oblivious to God's presence since they are residing in unconscious death.

[bobf]

That's something that I never felt like I got a very good, Biblical, answer on or to on that Lake of Fire thread that got a lot of attention a while back.  If the last enemy to be destroyed is death, and the Lake of Fire is the second death, then where's the room for the over-romanticization in saying that God is the Lake of Fire?

Is God the last enemy that shall be put under foot?  Is God what's been separating lost souls from God, from godliness, from goodness, from holiness, from righteousness, from peace, and from joy?  God is fire, and being a Pentecostal/Charismatic, I've experienced first hand His manifestation of Himself as fire, but there's a distinction in the Scriptures between God being a fire and God being our life and God's Written Word being our life, and the Lake of Fire and Brimstone which is the Second Death.  I can work with the Lake of Fire having some, much, most, or all application in this life because I'm no longer strictly a futurist in my understanding of prophecy with no wiggle room after having spent a few months totally binging on the book of Revelation, but to me there's a distinct difference between anything that's even remotely labeled "death" and God.

If the "lake of fire" is the "second death" and the "second death" is the "last enemy death" then Revelation 20:14 has the last enemy death being cast into itself.  Not very plausible.

My understanding is that the lake of fire is NOT the second death.  Rather death and hades being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The wicked having their part in the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I know of three kinds of death in scripture:
1. physical death
2. spriritual death (dead in trespasses and sins)
3. dying in Christ (which brings life)

The only path that leads to the destruction of death #1 and #2 is to die in Christ.  Since the lake of fire is pictured destroying death and hades, and this is called the second death, it seems reasonable to me that the second death is death #3.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

[CHB]

My understanding is that the lake of fire is NOT the second death.  Rather death and hades being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

while reading about the lake of fire being death I was thinking this very same thing.

It doesn't say the lake of fire is death it says because of being thrown into the lake of fire they experience the second death. Not that the lake of fire is the second death but one dies after experiencing the lake of fire.

I have wondered if the lake of fire wasn't the Holy Spirit? This can't be either because John said they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt. 3:11) he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall  baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

I can't find the verse right now but doesn't it say the lake of fire was prepared for satan and his angels? If this is true the lake of fire cannot be God.

CHB

[Tony N]

My understanding is that the lake of fire is NOT the second death.  Rather death and hades being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Tony's reply: Dear bobf, Thanks for writing your thoughts on this.
I am curious why you did not quote all of Revelation 20:14:

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire."
Does your version not have "-the lake of fire" at the end of it?

Or did you just purposly leave that part out to get your idea to fit? Without "-the lake of fire" being included, it seems you could be correct. However, including that last part does harm to your idea. In fact, I would say it is the death of your idea.

For you to state that "the lake of fire is NOT the second death" is rather bold, especially when the Bible does state that "This is the second death-the lake of fire." It is the same as saying: "This is the 43rd president - George Bush." It could be re-written: "George Bush is the 43rd president."
Likewise "This is the second death - the lake of fire"  can be re-written: The lake of fire is the second death."

bobf wrote: The wicked having their part in the lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I know of three kinds of death in scripture:
1. physical death
2. spriritual death (dead in trespasses and sins)
3. dying in Christ (which brings life)

The only path that leads to the destruction of death #1 and #2 is to die in Christ.  Since the lake of fire is pictured destroying death and hades, and this is called the second death, it seems reasonable to me that the second death is death #3.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Tony's reply: As far as those in the lake dying when Christ died, this is true. Yet it is not true that the lake of fire is death in Christ. When Christ died, all mankind died (2 Cor.5:14) yet this is not applied to those in the lake of fire until the consummation of the eons. If it were applied to them now, prior to the judgment at the Great White Throne, they would not be in the lake of fire when that judgment occurs. They would not even be standing before the GWT. They would be righteous and justified and would have not been condemned with the world. Had it been applied to them now they never would have to go into the second death. We who have Christ' death applied to us do not go to the second death.

[Mickiel]

I personally don't see the Lake of Fire as the second death, I agree with those who view the second death, as the death of the first death. The Lake of Fire is the vehicle that is used, but I think that Death and Hades , or the grave, are not beings, not humans, not Spirit creatures, but they are Symbols of concepts that will no longer exist. Very real concepts, yes, but not beings within themselves. They were things God used, God deployed, or that God opened up and brought into existance. The Lake of Fire is not death, it is going to be used partly as a place of Death, but it is a place of Life and great Power. And I will go into this in detail tommorrow.

Peace.

[Tony N]

I personally don't see the Lake of Fire as the second death, I agree with those who view the second death, as the death of the first death. The Lake of Fire is the vehicle that is used, but I think that Death and Hades , or the grave, are not beings, not humans, not Spirit creatures, but they are Symbols of concepts that will no longer exist. Very real concepts, yes, but not beings within themselves. They were things God used, God deployed, or that God opened up and brought into existance. The Lake of Fire is not death, it is going to be used partly as a place of Death, but it is a place of Life and great Power. And I will go into this in detail tommorrow.

Peace.

Dear Mickiel,
You state that "the lake of fire is not death." The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. In other words, The lake of fire is death. Concerning death and Hades or more properly "death and the unseen" are cast into the lake of fire, the words "death and the unseen" should be viewed as a metonymy.
"death and the unseen are used in reference to those of mankind who are associated with death and the unseen, the unjust dead (vss.12,13). In other words, those who were held by death and the unseen are cast into the lake of fire.
It is the same as if I said "The city of Bonn, Germany died in a single night of fighting." Would we think that the buildings of the city along with the sewer system fought that night and the building and sewer system died or the people of that city faught and died. The latter is the case.

[Mickiel]

Not to be premature, because I am at work until 12am, and without my bible, but when we consider the Lake of Fire, and God throwing death into it, the things thrown into the Lake, are NOT the Lake itself. The Lake of Fire is not humans, not demons, not death, not the Grave. These are things thrown into it. The Lake of Fire was " Prepared for satan and his demons", meaning the purpose for throwing them into it is differing than other things thrown in. God has a special party for them. Something espically prepared for them.

However, when it states that death is thrown into the Lake, then states that to be the second death, it is not calling the Lake of Fire death. It says this is the second death, it is simply eulogizing death, not labeling the Lake as being death itself. It means that God will never allow anythingelse to die, which is actually proof that the humans thrown in afterwards, surely cannot die, because death is done away with. Which further makes this Lake a place of Life, because it destroys death, or it MARKS the end of God using death.

The Lake of Fire is not a death pool, not a grave, not a punishing pit, and far too many view it as such. It has multiple personalitys, because God is using it for diverse reasons.

Listen, I was not going to bring this up, but I keep refering to the Spirit world as a place of Fire. Much as we view water, I begin to believe that Spirit beings view Fire like this. Water is a part of us, we gain nourishment from it, its in us. We swim and bathe in it. I think so do Spirit beings with Fire. A Lake of Fire to them is a thing of bueaty, and I wouldnot doubt that there are other lakes and Rivers of Fire in Gods Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is also a place of Water. A Great wonderous place, but I get ahead of myself.

Peace.

[bobf]

Tony's reply: Dear bobf, Thanks for writing your thoughts on this.
I am curious why you did not quote all of Revelation 20:14:

I did quote the entire verse.  I was quoting from the KJV.  I wasn't aware that some versions add the phrase in question.

Or did you just purposly leave that part out to get your idea to fit?

That would be silly.

Without "-the lake of fire" being included, it seems you could be correct. However, including that last part does harm to your idea. In fact, I would say it is the death of your idea.

The KJV, Webster, and YLT do not have that phrase, so it seems that I could be correct.

For you to state that "the lake of fire is NOT the second death" is rather bold, especially when the Bible does state that "This is the second death-the lake of fire."

THE bible?

It is the same as saying: "This is the 43rd president - George Bush." It could be re-written: "George Bush is the 43rd president."
Likewise "This is the second death - the lake of fire"  can be re-written: The lake of fire is the second death."

Yes, if that phrase is in the scriptures then the lake of fire is the second death.  In that case it's rather doubtful that the second death is like the "last enemry, death" which is being cast into it and apparently consumed by it.

Tony's reply: As far as those in the lake dying when Christ died, this is true. Yet it is not true that the lake of fire is death in Christ. When Christ died, all mankind died (2 Cor.5:14) yet this is not applied to those in the lake of fire until the consummation of the eons. If it were applied to them now, prior to the judgment at the Great White Throne, they would not be in the lake of fire when that judgment occurs. They would not even be standing before the GWT. They would be righteous and justified and would have not been condemned with the world. Had it been applied to them now they never would have to go into the second death. We who have Christ' death applied to us do not go to the second death.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.  What I meant by the second death being death #3 was losing ones life for Christ's sake in order to find life.  Not everyone has done that.