The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[willieH]

There is only one time when we see Jesus struggling with the will of God versus his will, and that is in the garden where he is facing the most brutal kind of death.  Even there, he is never at enmity with God, only struggling to fulfill a very difficult task.  He asks for the cup to be taken from him, but then resolves the issue himself.

It is just purposed ignorance or obstinance to think that a MAN in FLESH (which is what JESUS was) that had not eaten for 40 Days & Nights, would not be struggling with such a proposal as was made to CHRIST (turn the stones into loaves of bread - which end is to satisfy the desire of the FLESH to EAT)... believe what you will...

We never see Jesus at enmity with God the Father.   Never.

No one has suggested this except YOU... but His FLESH came against Him through temptation whether you are willing to see it or not... (James 1:14)

If CHRIST had no battle at all with the FLESH, then He is hardly IN our same circumstance, and He did NOT "overcome" it for IT (the FLESH) thereby presented NOTHING to OVERCOME, ...neither was He TEMPTED ...AS... are WE...

Again you are more that welcome to believe what you shall...  :dontknow:

Satan, on the other hand, is at constant enmity with God.

That is because satan (adversity) ...IS... the "enmity"... and that enmity has no mind of its own...

SIN in the end, is the successful manipulation of the CARNAL (Flesh) OVER the SPIRIT...   CHRIST came against AND WON, ...OVER... His own FLESH... or the whole proposal of Him OVERCOMING, is false.  :2c:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

The flesh, is not necessarily carnal.   Jesus in the flesh did not hate God, he has desires according to what the flesh prefers.   This is not inherantly carnal.   Jesus was limited in knowledge,  this is not inherantly carnal.

Satan tempted Jesus and Jesus without the Hatred towards God could discern through the desires of flesh as an example that Satan is not all powerful and that the Love of the Father is seen.

This is interesting.  Jesus overcame any limitations of the flesh, up to and including the resurrection from the dead.

The key seems to be love in accordance with God's will.....?

But on the other thread you seem to think that all men have a beast within, yet you say the flesh is not inherantly carnal.  So what then is this beast?  I do not necessarily agree with you on that--a lamb is not a 'beast' in the sense of being a monster.  Yet, beast is connotative with monster.   We are sheep.

Can you talk some more about the difference you see among satan, serpent, and flesh?

Molly, I do not mean this towards you to emotionalize the issue, but until you are perfect and without sin, you do not completely follow Jesus in full devotion.   Any one of us may indeed see and talk about this Love,  but until we excersize it in faith 100%, then that beast remains whether we want to admit it or not.

This is not to say that "I" know exactly what you have to do, what you should do, or that I can judge "you".  But unless you or anyone that says that they follow Jesus is perfect then my point seems to remain.


Being a sheep does not separate us from being beasts.  Shepherding has to do with how God works his people. A sheep in a herd does not necessarily love the shepherd while the sheep dog is nipping at them to go a certain direction.   

Wolves want to eat sheep, and literally to us if a wolf eats a sheep, that sheep is gone, but we are human and God has depeicted these scenarios for us to see the nature of things, rather than to view them as so literal that we must conclude that a wolf that eats a sheep has finalized the destiny of that sheep.


As far as the distinction between Satan, serpent and flesh.

Satan to me is a being and is used by God for his purposes. I see the arguments for Satan being in the mind, yet, the explanation of  Satan affecting things outside the mind go unanswered.  This use God has for Satan shows up in accounts where he is to sift simon as grain, where he tempts Jesus, where he is allowed to affect Job within the parameters God set.  God kept his promise, he does not allow what we cannot bear. 


When we think of Satan as a being, we picture him as a human.  We do not hardly see him as a being that can do his deeds almost instantaneously of one another.  Meaning he can affect the whole world very quickly since he is spiritual in nature.

The serpent,  When we look at the old testament we see the serpent in Genesis, then in Job, it is Satan.   Why is he Satan there and the Serpent in the Garden. If they are one in the same, why didn't  Satan use this trickery on Job?  No, he simply came against his physical life.  We could conclude that Satan is stupid and did not remember how well this worked in the garden, but we do not see Satan speaking to Job at all.    The Serpent is more conclusive to the beast within all man kind, constantly at its cunning work.  Doesn't matter how much you say you love Jesus, that cunning beast will talk you into things you know you shouldn't do, and you do it anyway.


The flesh, the flesh is simply your unique qualities  our manner of desire is not initially wrong, but our desires are not necessarily the best for us.  I will use a more controversial example.

Homosexuality is a good one.  and I will pick on myself.   I have male friends and I can feel such a strong love for them, sometimes I can feel physically attracted to them.  That emotion is not inherantly wrong.  It is the flesh being normal, but not necessarily the best for us.  The serpent, would take that love and attraction and turn it into sexual perversion.  We can apply this same thing to heterosexuality.   As a married man, I come across females that I get attracted to, I feel interested in them.  This inherantly is the flesh and inherantly there is nothing wrong with that.  The serpent, will say that I can indulge those feelings in my heart and not take into account my wife, what harm would that be? 


I believe Jesus in the flesh had these desires.   Think about this.  Jesus knew that something about his purpose was to reign  correct?  So, he would know this in the flesh, to reign over all mankind,  then Satan comes along and tempts his flesh to reign over them in this physical realm.  Jesus could have and he would have done so in love, but that is not what was best.


Not saying any of this in expectation of agreement,  and Lord knows I do not know it all,  I just see the distinction between the three that needs to be studied because there is something deeper to learn.

[Molly]

It is just purposed ignorance or obstinance to think that a MAN in FLESH (which is what JESUS was) that had not eaten for 40 Days & Nights, would not be struggling with such a proposal as was made to CHRIST (turn the stones into loaves of bread - which end is to satisfy the desire of the FLESH to EAT)... believe what you will...

Medically speaking, I would think the desire to eat would be greater after 1 day than after 40.  I've heard the desire goes away in people who are  fasting--but I would have to check that out more.

Let's use King David as an example.  His desire for Bathsheba took over his life and destroyed it.  We never see Jesus anywhere near this state.  Why not?  What is the difference between David and Jesus in this instance?  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul H... :hithere:

The flesh, is not necessarily carnal.   Jesus in the flesh did not hate God, he has desires according to what the flesh prefers.   This is not inherantly carnal.   Jesus was limited in knowledge,  this is not inherantly carnal.

Sorry to disagree brother P... but the writings of the Apostles (1 John 2:15-16 / Rom 7:23) note the FLESH as the OPPOSITION of the SPIRIT, and notes that ITS DESIRES are that which OPPOSE the Father... 

JESUS, in order to be TEMPTED as are WE, had to fight the SAME BATTLE with the SAME ENEMY - the FLESH (not some mythical "fallen angel" some call "satan")  The ADVERSITY (opposing the will of GOD) is of the FLESH...

The serpent is apart from Satan and apart from flesh.  The serpent corrupts the flesh.   Satan tempts the flesh and if given permission can control the flesh.   The flesh is not our decision making capabilities.  Satan cannot control it,  the serpent cannot control it, but it can corrupt that which it all filters through.

This is your view and you are welcome to it, though IMO it is astray. 

"satan" is not a being which OPPOSES us, ...it is our FLESH that OPPOSES us... as clearly noted by PAUL (Rom 7:23)... Paul does not mention a battle with any "serpent" nor does he indicate "satan", he just notes his FLESH in a WAR or BATTLE with his INNER MAN (Rom 7:22) --- (CHRIST)... concluding with the notation that with HIS MIND (heart) He shall serve GOD, but his FLESH, shall continue to SIN (Rom 7:25)

The Apostle John also concurred with this (1 John 1:8), noting that even though we are given over to GOD, ...SIN, would continue, and that DENIAL of this FACT, is DENIAL of the TRUTH (1 John 1:10)

We often associate "flesh" with sin.  But Jesus was in the flesh, so it cannot be inherantly sin.

The flesh prompts disobedience Paul... it is undefiled until the MIND complies with its proposals...  Without the FLESH, the MIND has no OPPOSITION to consider.   

WHAT (according to you) did CHRIST ...OVERCOME... Paul?   

PAUL notes that it is the FLESH (bodies) which is to be brought under subjection and PRESENTED to GOD, as a LIVING SACRIFICE... (Rom 12:1-2)

JAMES notes (James 4:4) that "friendship (companionship) with the WORLD" is "enmity" with GOD (makes you an ENEMY of GOD)...

JOHN notes (John 2:15-16) that the LUST of the FLESH, which is in the "WORLD" is that which is NOT of the FATHER... but in OPPOSITION to Him.  :dontknow:

Believe what you shall...  :dbook:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Believe what you shall... 

Hey Willie, you can believe what you like too,   thank you.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Sorry to disagree brother P... but the writings of the Apostles (1 John 2:15-16 / Rom 7:23) note the FLESH as the OPPOSITION of the SPIRIT, and notes that ITS DESIRES are that which OPPOSE the Father... 

The passage in 1 John, says  "lust OF the flesh"   That creates more depth than one word "flesh" does.

The Serpent nature causes the lust of the flesh.



Ro 7:22 For I am gratified with the law of  God accordingas to the humanman within,

Ro 7:23 yet I am observing a different law in my  members, warring with the law of my  mind, and leading me into captivity into the law of  sin thewhich is in my  members.




In Verse 22 there is a gratification of Gods law in accordance with the human man within.

But in verse 23, there is a different law and this different law is at war with the law of the mind.  You cannot have it both ways.  If Jesus was carnal, then he was not without sin.


So there is some separation between Jesus and mankind.    Jesus was an example of hope, not necessarily the example that it is possible for humans to be perfect.

Ro 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity intoto God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.




Notice is says the disposition of the flesh.   If your saying that the flesh is inherantly enmity to God, then your saying Jesus flesh hated God, which means Jesus had sin within him.

The disposition is the state of the flesh.  The state of Jesus flesh was not carnal.

[Moshood]

What about this scripture ...

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [ 1 Corinthians 5:5 ]

The Flesh cannot represent Satan here IMO.

[Moshood]

What about when God told Satan he could do His worst upon Job but, not kill Him.

Job had sores all over his body, lost his family, possessions etc.

Certainly Satan must be more than Flesh if he was able to do all that to Job IMO.

[rosered]

What you would have me believe is that Jesus was talking to himself when he was tempted of the devil, which would mean Jesus had a carnal mind.

Good point.

The carnal mind is at enmity with God.


Main Entry: en·mi·ty
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'en-m&-te
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English enmite, from Middle French enemité, from Old French enemisté, from enemi enemy
: positive, active, and typically mutual hatred or ill will
synonyms ENMITY , HOSTILITY , ANTIPATHY , ANTAGONISM , ANIMOSITY , RANCOR , ANIMUSmean deep-seated dislike or ill will. ENMITY suggests positive hatred which may be open or concealed<an unspoken enmity>. HOSTILITY suggests an enmity showing itself in attacks or aggression <hostility between the two nations>. ANTIPATHY and ANTAGONISM imply a natural or logical basis for one's hatred or dislike, ANTIPATHY suggesting repugnance, a desire to avoid or reject, and ANTAGONISM suggesting a clash of temperaments leading readily to hostility <a natural antipathy for self-seekers> <antagonism between the brothers>. ANIMOSITY suggests intense ill will and vindictiveness that threaten to kindle hostility <animosity that led to revenge>. RANCOR is especially applied to bitter brooding over a wrong <rancor filled every line of his letters>. ANIMUS adds to animosity the implication of strong prejudice <objections devoid of personal animus>.



Doesn't sound like Jesus to me.

Mat 4:11  Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.  
  HI  Molly ,  agreed !  but

     I believe that people  have  spririts / breath   that are unclean  / washed  Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon   that speak  good and evil
and that Jesus was confronted  with one of such people ,
Just like Jesus called    Satan out  but it was Peters body that  breath / spirit was in speaking    the things that be of men [ below ] earthly things  
  the    body / spirit in that body  that  tempted Jesus made offerings   to Jesus of worldly things  
Like we do  lets say ,  one of our  children
If you get all A's   in school this year I will gave you a nice car  in the spring  

 things that would make them  think about /lust desire   a car , and they would agree to it or not , but  if the didnt do as    the parent asked they  would not get a  car in the spring  an example  only ...

 after  reading Matt 4   it was    against  what Jesus   stood for   which is lowly , humble , meek and mild    in nature
  those things  that he was offered  were  self serving and prideful  to me anyways  
it was NOT Jesus mind , but the carnal mind of  the one/ a man  who spirit/unclean  was not right with God  who come to tempt Him to  me  

   I hope you dont mind me jumping in  here and there  on occasion  ?

 peace  ..rose

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

It is just purposed ignorance or obstinance to think that a MAN in FLESH (which is what JESUS was) that had not eaten for 40 Days & Nights, would not be struggling with such a proposal as was made to CHRIST (turn the stones into loaves of bread - which end is to satisfy the desire of the FLESH to EAT)... believe what you will...

Medically speaking, I would think the desire to eat would be greater after 1 day than after 40.  I've heard the desire goes away in people who are  fasting--but I would have to check that out more.

In my life, I have fasted for as much as a week...  :heat:

Don't just "think" Molly, ...try it...  :dontknow:

Instead of checking with the Medical opinions or friends or HEARSAY, EXPERIENCE for YOURSELF, ...dont eat anything for a week Molly, see if you are more hungry at the end of the week, then after the first day...  :dontknow:

I gurantee that people which have not eaten for 40 days (if they have not died), are not merely just "hungry", they are RAVAGED by HUNGER...

Why not REALLY put it to the test, and try it for 40 days Molly?  ... (just kidn')  :laughing7:

Let's use King David as an example.  His desire for Bathsheba took over his life and destroyed it.  We never see Jesus anywhere near this state.  Why not?  What is the difference between David and Jesus in this instance?

David was PROMPTED by HIS FLESHLY desire... CHRIST had to have been (though it is not noted) tempted in this way as well... Otherwise, He could not say that He was TEMPTED in ALL POINTS ...AS ARE WE...

Also, David gave into his FLESHLY desire... whereas CHRIST overcame, ...THAT is the DIFFERENCE in "this instance" sis...

Besides Molly, CHRIST was the ONLY BEGOTTEN and SINLESS, ...SON of GOD... David, though a King, was still just another SINFUL man...

ALL the details which CHRIST endured in His life concerning varying TEMPTATIONS are (obviously) NOT noted...

JESUS CHRIST had a childhood, and early adulthood, but the great MAJORITY of that life is NOT NOTED... yet we KNOW it took place... and that it took place gave CHRIST the opportunity to continuously serve the WILL of GOD in the FACE of TEMPTATION.

His life had to have been assaulted with TEMPTATION on a DAILY basis from childhood to adulthood... for that is the continuing experience of MEN...  We are not TEMPTED once as teenagers or young adults, and that's it... we are assaulted with varying TEMPTATIONS all LIFE LONG...

When we SUBMIT to CHRIST in any given area, we then are become strengthened against that particular area...

I smoked cigarettes for 12 years... In 1976 I met CHRIST, ...quit smoking by placing my faith IN HIM (after failing to do so many times), and have remained a non-smoker for almost 33 years...  

The TEMPTATION was not removed... but the presence of CHRIST in ME, easily casts away that particular TEMPTATION from me, these days...  :dontknow:

Life contains INNUMERABLE TEMPTATIONS of varying detrimental degrees... Our submission to our Savior, is the WAY we OVERCOME any of them as we walk with HIM.

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[rosered]

What about when God told Satan he could do His worst upon Job but, not kill Him.

Job had sores all over his body, lost his family, possessions etc.

Certainly Satan must be more than Flesh if he was able to do all that to Job IMO.

   YES  I TOO BELIEVE  SATAN IS MORE THAN JUST FLESH AND BLOOD  :thumbsup:

[Molly]

Mat 4:11  Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. 

Hi Rose,-- the devil left and angels came and ministered to him.  That says it all, doesn't it?

Those same angels minister to us, as well.


11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

--Psalm 91



Yes, those angels could be spirit beings; they could be people as well.  I've experienced them both ways.

They could even be me....and you! :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  Exactly sis !!  :thumbsup:
  I have too  entertained angels  awake and sleeping  :HeartThrob:
  God love ya .. rose   

  NIV  Heb ;13 1Keep on loving each other as brothers.


  2Do not forget to entertain strangers,[SHOW  hospitality] for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. 


  3Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.............

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Moshood... :hithere:

Thanks for your comments...  :cloud9:

Below, are mine!   :thumbsup:

What about this scripture ...

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [ 1 Corinthians 5:5 ]

The Flesh cannot represent Satan here IMO.

And you are more than welcome to that opinion Moshood, heres my  :2c: ...

ADVERSITY to the command of GOD is that which DESTROYS the flesh bro... SIN! SIN then takes the FLESH to its GRAVE in DEATH... destroying it.

Eve was ...in FLESH and was SINLESS until she submitted to the lusts/desires of her FLESH...

(1 John 2:16)  For ALL that is in the WORLD:  [1] the LUST of the FLESH and the, [2] LUST of the EYES, and the [3] PRIDE of LIFE is NOT of the Father but is OF the WORLD...

Gen 3:6:

(1) she saw that the fruit was good for food (lust of the flesh)
(2) she saw the fruit was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes) 
(3) she desired a knowledge she did not have, and disobeyed the warning of GOD that she would die, and ATE... (pride of life)

CHRIST was also, ...in FLESH, but did not submit to its LUSTS/DESIRES... as did EVE...

The ADVERSITY which emerges from DESIRES of the FLESH is satan (which means ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY - #H7853 & #H7854 -- STRONGS)... (James 1:14)

"satan" is NOT the FLESH, neither is IT a being, ...it is that which EMERGES from the FLESH as noted by Paul: (Rom 7:23) and James: (1:14)

No "being" OUTSIDE men, "TEMPTS" them... the TEMPTATION is BORN of the DESIRES of the FLESH as James notes in the above quote verse...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

CHRIST was also, ...in FLESH, but did not submit to its LUSTS/DESIRES... as did EVE...

So--if Jesus had not taken on the sins of the world, he would have lived forever in the flesh?

The ADVERSITY which emerges from DESIRES of the FLESH is satan (which means ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY - #H7853 & #H7854 -- STRONGS)... (James 1:14)

"satan" is NOT the FLESH, neither is IT a being, ...it is that which EMERGES from the FLESH as noted by Paul: (Rom 7:23) and James: (1:14)

so you are saying satan "is that which emerges from the flesh".....?

It's not the flesh, but it emerges from the flesh?  So what is it?  A spirit trapped in flesh?  I'm seriously confused by your position here.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Moshood...  :cloud9:

about your other view:

What about when God told Satan he could do His worst upon Job but, not kill Him.

Job had sores all over his body, lost his family, possessions etc.

Certainly Satan must be more than Flesh if he was able to do all that to Job IMO.

Again bro... you are welcome to that opinion!  Here is my  :2c:

As I said in my previous answer to you that FLESH is not "satan" (adversity), but "satan" (adversity) is IN the FLESH... The NATURAL state of MAN, which prompts and has the ability to disobey.

Bear with me Moshood...

As I see it, GOD is IN CONTROL of ALL that occurs, irregardless of our observance of the good or bad which at times, seems to happen at random...  Which also includes these things which occured to Job.  GOD was not only IN CONTROL of the sorrows which Job experienced, He ENGINEERED the entire scenario... more on that in a minute...  :cloud9:

No being was contending with YHVH God... The "HEDGE" that was built around Job, is the BLESSINGS of GOD... As GOD removes the LIGHT of Himself (and those BLESSINGS) from ANY scenario... DARKNESS begins to engulf that scenario... So it was with JOB...

No victory (over a mythical being most call "satan") was being sought here... just the example of holding on to FAITH through ADVERSITY, ...and the BLESSINGS which ones FAITH shall bring forth in conclusion, as FAITH --  OPPOSES that ADVERSITY... 

Unless the "HEDGE" was removed, then the scenario of JOB does not even  exist - eh?

Let's examine WHO it was that actually brought those curses on JOB, shall we?  :dbook:

Job 1:10 [satan/adversity:] Hath not Thou made an HEDGE about him and about his house, and about ALL that he hath on EVERY SIDE?  Thou hast BLESSED the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land...

Now "satan" supposedly proposes:

Job 1:11  But put forth THINE HAND now, and TOUCH all the he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face

It was GOD who TOUCHED in a NEGATIVE WAY, ...ALL... that Job had, including HIS HEALTH...

GOD does it all bro... whether we wish to see it or not... "satan" is the ADVERSITY/ADVERSARY which was created IN MAN... and is OF GOD... who is the CREATOR of ALL THINGS...

Eph 1:11 ...in Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according ot the PURPOSE of HIM who WORKETH ALL THINGS, after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL.

Rom 13:1 ...let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.  For there is NO POWER but OF GOD... the POWERS that ...BE.. are ORDAINED of GOD.

We are only existent in HEALTH by the POWER of GOD to maintain it according to HIS PURPOSES...  GOD hardens whom HE WILL, and whom HE WILL he has mercy (Rom 9:18)

Is 53:5 ...but He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of PEACE upon Him, and with His stripes we are HEALED.

HEALING is according to the WORKING and WILL of YHVH, not our desires for it to be realized.  And when GOD is working His PURPOSE in our LIVES, the removal of that BLESSING of HEALTH has reason attached within that PURPOSE.. 



**********   *********   **********   **********   **********

I just underwent MAJOR SURGERY for CANCER bro... and in the midst of the PAIN and LONELINESS in ICU, ...I... QUESTIONED my GOD!   :sigh:

What I said to Him as my wife left ICU shortly after midnight on Sept 9th:   "I feel like I'm ALL ALONE!  WHY am I being put through this?  I want to die... I just can't take any more!"   :sweat: :pitiful:

What HE SAID to ME: "You CAN, and YOU WILL...  YOU are not ALONE... I live in the PAIN with you, ...and together My son shall WE find GREAT JOY, upon its dismissal"   :Peck:


**********   *********   **********   **********   **********


Here below, is a little from His WORD, on that process bro...

Rom 9:21  Hath not the POTTER, ...POWER over the CLAY, of the SAME LUMP to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor? 

Part of making the clay of DISHONOR is SIN and the accompanying suffering which is brought upon us, and purposed to COMPLETE us (Heb 2:9)... to arrive at the BLESSING in the SPIRIT which is HONOR...

Jer 18:4  And the vessel that He made of the CLAY was MARRED ...in THE HAND of the POTTER: so He made it again another vessel as seemed GOOD to THE POTTER to make it...

GOD is the POTTER bro... we are just being molded... sometimes that "molding", ...brings suffering... but arrives in GLORY...

Sorry if this answer was a little long...  :mblush:  I felt I needed to emphasize and found with Scripture, my viewpoint.   :thumbsup:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...   :cloud9:

CHRIST was also, ...in FLESH, but did not submit to its LUSTS/DESIRES... as did EVE...

So--if Jesus had not taken on the sins of the world, he would have lived forever in the flesh?

Don't even see the relevance of this Molly... What He DIDN'T DO (remain in the flesh), is irrelevant!

The ADVERSITY which emerges from DESIRES of the FLESH is satan (which means ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY - #H7853 & #H7854 -- STRONGS)... (James 1:14)

"satan" is NOT the FLESH, neither is IT a being, ...it is that which EMERGES from the FLESH as noted by Paul: (Rom 7:23) and James: (1:14)

so you are saying satan "is that which emerges from the flesh".....?

ADVERSITY [satan] -- (which is NOT a "name", but a principality)... emerges FROM the FLESH (James 1:14 -- of his OWN LUST / Rom 7:23 -- IN my members)

It's not the flesh, but it emerges from the flesh?  So what is it?  A spirit trapped in flesh?  I'm seriously confused by your position here.

The FLESH has within it ADVERSITY... and proposes that ADVERSITY to us as the above quoted SCRIPTURES attest...  I have amply displayed this, you are welcome to believe as you do Molly...

ADVERSITY is not a "spirit" (in terms of an EXTERNAL being named "satan") any  more than a Heart is a Lung... :rolleye: ...IT is simply a present characteristic principality in the NATURAL MAN, that gravitates to disobeying the command of GOD...  :dontknow:

The NATURAL will of MAN which is found in BONDAGE to that ADVERSITY, ...shown  EXALTING ITSELF ...over the stated (FREE)  WILL of GOD.  :dontknow:

You know as well as I, that you and I have already danced around these issues... so please, for the sake of peace... don't provoke intentionally... just disagree, get over it... and move on.  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

]The FLESH has within it ADVERSITY... and proposes that ADVERSITY to us as the above quoted SCRIPTURES attest...  I have amply displayed this, you are welcome to believe as you do Molly...

ADVERSITY is not a "spirit" (in terms of an EXTERNAL being named "satan") any  more than a Heart is a Lung...  ...IT is simply a present characteristic principality in the NATURAL MAN, that gravitates to disobeying the command of GOD... 

I'm not trying to provoke, I'm simply trying to understand what you are saying.

A heart and lung are both flesh.  They have qualities in common.

What qualities do flesh and 'adversity--not a spirit, simply a principality' have in common?

We are told we are not fighting against flesh and blood.  Well, if it's not flesh and blood--then isn't it spirit?

What else is there?  Is there some other component of our human experience other than those two?



12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forcesof wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

--Eph 6



"spiritual" [wickedness]

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  :icon_king:

The FLESH has within it ADVERSITY... and proposes that ADVERSITY to us as the above quoted SCRIPTURES attest...  I have amply displayed this, you are welcome to believe as you do Molly...

ADVERSITY is not a "spirit" (in terms of an EXTERNAL being named "satan") any  more than a Heart is a Lung...  ...IT is simply a present characteristic principality in the NATURAL MAN, that gravitates to disobeying the command of GOD... 

I'm not trying to provoke, I'm simply trying to understand what you are saying.

A heart and lung are both flesh.  They have qualities in common.

Are you really?  :dontknow:   Or do you just wish to continue to argue what we have already argued several times before? :rolleye:

The point is, that a heart is not a lung... that they are flesh is not the point I was endeavoring to make.   :megashock:

I was OBVIOUSLY trying to say that ADVERSITY is NOT a SEPARATE "person" or "BEING" which prompts YOU to SIN or DISOBEY God...  You do that just fine without any assistance, because GOD created you to have that ABILITY within.  Now do you understand, Molli?  :dunno:

What qualities do flesh and 'adversity--not a spirit, simply a principality' have in common?

Ask the Apostle JAMES who said in James 1:14 that TEMPTATION is caused in EVERY man ...by being DRAWN AWAY by LUST that emerges from WITHIN Him/her...  :dontknow:  He DIDN'T SAY, that we are DRAWN AWAY by some misleading and persuasive "being" called "satan".

THAT is what the FLESH has to do with ADVERSITY... When one is IN the FLESH, one cannot please GOD... (Rom 8:8)  What does it mean to YOU, to be IN the FLESH Molli? 

To me it means that we are making decisions according to the dications of the FLESH and NOT according to the SPIRIT which prompts OTHERWISE... (the "INNER MAN" which is CHRIST Rom 7:22)

The CARNAL mind, is the mind which agrees only with the Physical SENSES, which are WHAT the FLESH ...IS... and which are ADVERSE to the commands and WORD of GOD... and THAT which EVE used to enact her  SIN...

We are told we are not fighting against flesh and blood.  Well, if it's not flesh and blood--then isn't it spirit?

The Physical ANATOMY (flesh & blood) of ourselves and others is NOT what we battle with Molli...  We battle with the CHOICES those bodies PRESENT to us which are ADVERSE to GOD's Command...

What else is there?  Is there some other component of our human experience other than those two?

12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forcesof wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

--Eph 6

"spiritual" [wickedness]

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.[/quote]

G5591
psuchikos
from 5590; sensitive, i.e. animate (in distinction on the one hand from 4152 which is the HIGHER or renovated NATURE; and on the other from 5446, which is the LOWER or BESTIAL NATURE):  NATURAL, ...SENSUAL...

Don't know what version you quoted from or if the bracketed comments are OF that version or YOUR OWN... but I offer another:

KVJ:   Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against FLESH and BLOOD, but against PRINCIPALITIES, against POWERS [adversity/satan], against the RULERS of the DARKNESS of THIS WORLD, against SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS in HIGH places.

The HIGH place in which SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS lies in IN the TEMPLE of GOD... There IS ...NO HIGHER PLACE, than the TEMPLE in which GOD dwells and which TEMPLE, WE ARE ...Molli...

It is from WITHIN MEN that these principalities come forth, shown in and by our  ACTIONS, ...not prompted by some red guy with a pitch fork that might be your favorite halloween costume, Molli...

Enough... Let us discuss the TOPIC... and discontinue disagreements which we have BOTH made known more than once on this forum...

"satan" as a particular "FALLEN ANGELIC being", as far as I am concerned is the biggest lie of all, from which emerges all other lies propegated by the Christian religion... and is utilized by that religion to keep its proponents in fear, and in the dark...

Believe in "satan" if you must Molli, ...have your [albeit -- mythical] wrestling matches with "him"... that is just fine with me...  :declare:

no problemo...  :dontknow:

:hijacked:  Let's endeavor to steer this back to the TOPIC's questions, rather than have a personal confrontation we have already had several times, and which ended in disagreement, and shall only end up there again!  Here they are in case you have forgotten:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 
(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"? 
(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?
(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[pneuma]

Hi Willie, just dropped by to let you know I have not forgotten about you bro. but instead of making an answer point by point like I usually do I am writting a small atricle of how I see things. I am doing it this way as to much confusion comes from long point by point address and I want to try to make myself as clear as possible.

About half way done, hopefully by tomorrow I'll be able to post.

God bless

[Molly]

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 
(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"? 
(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?
(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

1)Angels fell, yes.  I wouldn't call them holy.


2)They fell from heaven.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

--Rev 12

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


3) Only if you think every part of creation is going to be restored/saved--that's your argument for universal restoration.  In other words, there is the same 'salvation' for them as for anyone thrown into the lake of fire.

4)They are thrown into the lake of fire--originally prepared for them, the second death.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[rosered]

 
  the Thing is to me   the angels messengers fall from  what ?
  to me its grace /favor  of the Lord God   
the   messengers  can be   preachers that  go back into law to hold  /judge  many prisoners  , what types of spirits  are working in them ?
antichrist spirits   they are the generation of vipers / seeing dont see  , hearing  dont hear the SPIRIT OF CHRIST



Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

all of matt 23   but seeing they are in the Fire / the wrath and anger
  that consumes us ..  they uphold the Law but are  like Paul  was  a murderer   breaking it  , making him a  liar and hypocrite   , till Christ come  to him  personally and Changed him

Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? "Gehenna of fire".


If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!) they are spiritually Dead to God
  Paul was once  disobedient  thinking he was doing  service to God  , but was  alive to the Law  once and  dead to God , but He  become dead to the Law [ through it ] and Alive to God  [through Jesus Christ] 
   the Law is the ministration of death
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
  I may not have explained myself very well 
  but I tried 
God bless

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Thanks for returning to what was actually proposed as the discussion...  :ty:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 
(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"? 
(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?
(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

1)Angels fell, yes.  I wouldn't call them holy.

That is fine, ...you can call them whatever you desire, ...however, that you "name them other than HOLY", doesn't equate to that observation as accurate...  :dontknow:  If they are now in fact, "UNHOLY" because they FELL, they must have been something else before BECOMING "UNHOLY"...  :dontknow:

If they were NOT HOLY, then from what position or place did they fall FROM Molly?  :Whistle:

If SIN is UNHOLINESS, and THAT is what they DID and became UNHOLY, then it is only LOGICAL to note their previous experience was HOLY - eh?  :dontknow:

The WORD, when speaking of the ANGELS of GOD, which shall accompany CHRIST in His Return... note them to be HOLY... and also notes that ALL (not just SOME) of them shall be with Him! 

(Matt 25:31) When the son of man shall come IN HIS GLORY, and ...ALL the HOLY ANGELS [not some, or the "remainder" which did not "fall"] ...with HIM... then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.

If these you propose "FELL" from that company, then what "you call them" is IRRELEVANT and INACCURATE... and the "SOME" that "fell" of the ALL you propose in your belief, thereby compromises the above Scripture.

2)They fell from heaven.

Which IS a HOLY environment is it NOT Molly?  :dunno:

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

--Rev 12

Quotation from a book of SYMBOLS... in your deduction of them,

(1) You are ASSUMING that the "dragon" is "satan", when "satan" is NOT indicated.

(2)  You are ASSUMING that the "heaven" they no longer were a part of, is the HEAVENLY domain of GOD, which is also, NOT indicated.

Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven.

ADVERSITY ("satan") indeed falls from the "heaven" [mind/heart] of the believer which is CHRIST casting the ADVERSE will of Man, to reclaim HIS TEMPLE and HIS BODY... by REVEALING JESUS CHRIST in that TEMPLE and BODY, the WILL and PRESENCE of GOD...  :happygrin:

3) Only if you think every part of creation is going to be restored/saved--that's your argument for universal restoration.  In other words, there is the same 'salvation' for them as for anyone thrown into the lake of fire.

ALL are presently IN the Lake of Fire Molly... which is where the FIRE of ALL SUFFERING and ALL DEATH takes place...

4)They are thrown into the lake of fire--originally prepared for them, the second death.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

ALL traverse the Lake of Fire Molly, ...for the Lake of Fire  (this life)
takes place NOW as He noted:  (John 12:31 / 1 Cor 3:11-15)

The "2nd death" is the death of the FLESH for which CHRIST did NOT die to redeem... (1 Cor 15:50)

The "1st death" is the death died by each man as he/she SINS, in the SPIRIT...  (which DEATH is a STATE, CHRIST indicated of men which were still PHYSICALLY ALIVE - "Let the DEAD bury their DEAD").

The death CHRIST DID "taste" for, and to redeem ALL MEN, is the "1st [spiritual] death"... (Heb 2:9)

The PHYSICAL death of the FLESH which CANNOT INHERIT the Kingdom of GOD, is appointed to each man to die...  (Heb 9:27)

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[pneuma]

Hi all this is longer then I thought it would be, so it will be in two posts, please give me time to get them both out there before replying, thanks.

The earth that then was

Before you read this let me warn you that there are some strange things written therein that most will likely reject, so all I ask of the reader is that they take what I put forth here before the Lord and ask Him concerning it.

Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Thus the heavens and the earth were created in the BEGINNING

And the DEVIL sinneth from the beginning.

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The word WAS here is also translated BECAME so verse two can be read "And the earth BECAME without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters".

Now as Is.45:18 say that God did NOT create the earth in VAIN which is the same Hebrew words as WITHOUT FORM something must have happened between verse 1 & 2 that caused the earth to be WITHOUT FORM.

What happened?


According to 2Pet.3:5-7 the first heaven and the earth was overflowed with water.


2 Peter 3:5-7
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:  6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Now some might argue that this is speaking of the flood in the days of Noah when the earth was flooded. And upon first glance it does look like that. But is that a proper understanding?

Did the flood in Noah's day overflow both heaven and earth (the WORLD)?

World here is kosmos and Kosmos is in reference to the whole universe, the HEAVENS and the EARTH.

So what Peter is saying is that the overflow of water covered both the HEAVEN and the EARTH.

Yet in the days of Noah only the EARTH was overflowed with water.

Therefore Peter must be talking about some other overflow of water, and the only other time it speaks of an overflow of water is in Gen.1

Now remember Peter says the HEAVEN and the EARTH ( kosmos ) was overflowed with water.

So lets go back to Gen.1:6-10 and see if the HEAVEN and the EARTH (kosmos ) was overflowed with water.

We read

Genesis 1:6-10
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.  7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

According to these scriptures the waters overflowed both the HEAVEN and the EARTH, this is the only time in scripture that God had to separate the water in HEAVEN, nothing like this occurred in the days of Noah, thus Peter was speaking about a flood far greater then that of the flood of Noah.

Another point that backs the flood spoken of in Peter is NOT in reference to the flood in Noah's day but is in reference to a flood that was hidden in secret from man is that Peter says the people were ignorant or unaware of this flood.

Everyone has heard about the flood in Noah's day no one is ignorant of it.

From Strong's

Ignorant

2990 lanthano { lan-than'-o}

a prolonged form of a primitive verb, which is used only as an alt. in certain tenses;; v

AV - be hid 3, be ignorant of 2, unawares 1; 6

GK - 3291 { lanqavnw }

1)   to be hidden, to be hidden from one, secretly, unawares, without knowing 



So why was the HEAVEN and the EARTH overflowed with water?

According to Peter the flood of Noah's day was a figure of the baptism that saves us. 1Peter 20-21

Now as the flood waters of Noah's day which only covered the earth is a figure of baptism unto salvation for man , what then can be said of the flood of the HEAVENS?

Does this not tell us that all those in the HEAVENS also have need of the baptism that saves?

According to Job the HEAVENS are not clean in His sight, does this then not imply that those in the HEAVENS have need of the baptism unto salvation? Sure it does, for the writer of Hebrews states that the HEAVENLY things are purified by a better sacrifice.

Job 15:15
15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.


Hebrews 9:23
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

So lets go back to Gen.1:2 and Is.45:18 and compare the two.

Genesis 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Isaiah 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Both the words WITHOUT FORM in Gen.1:2 and VAIN in Is.45:18 are the same words.
Thus it is clear that God did not make the earth WITHOUT FORM and as He did not make it WITHOUT FORM then something must have happened to the EARTH to make it that way.

Now some might argue that the WITHOUT FORM was before the earth was made, but it is clear from verse 2 that the earth was already in place for it specifically says the EARTH was WITHOUT FORM.

Now remember that in verse 2 of Gen. the word WAS is also translated BECAME which backs up Isaiah 45:18 that God did not create the earth WITHOUT FORM but the earth BECAME WITHOUT FORM.

Now if we only had Isaiah 45:18 to go on people might say that we need a second witness to the earth BECOMING WITHOUT FORM.

Well let's look at Gen.1:28

Genesis 1:28
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 

Did you get that? God said REPLENISH the EARTH.
This is the exact same command God gave Noah after the flood Gen.9:1

Now it should go without saying (but I am going to say it anyway) that if the earth is to be REPLENISHED then it must have had inhabitants before, just as the earth was inhabited before the flood in Noah's day.

Gen.1:28 supports the translation in Gen.1:2  that the earth BECAME WITHOUT FORM and Is.45:18 that God never created the earth WITHOUT FORM.

Now some might argue that how can there have been another heaven and earth before this one that God overflowed with water, would that not then mean death was in the world before Adam sinned?

I can answer this two ways.

First: Gen.2:17 says

Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 

The literal translation of thou shalt surely die is DYING THOU SHALT DIE

This literal reading clearly shows DEATH was in the world BEFORE Adam ate from the tree.

Now some might argue and say but if that is the case why does the bible say that Adam brought sin into the world and death by sin.

Lets look at the scripture

Romans 5:12-13
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:  13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

This set of scriptures clearly says that until the LAW sin was in the world but sin was not IMPUTED.

Thus if sin was not IMPUTED until Adam broke God's LAW(commandment) not to eat of the tree then neither was death IMPUTED. Once Adam broke God's LAW both sin and death was IMPUTED unto him and death by sin entered into the world.

Second: The world that then was spoken of in 2 Peter 3:5-7 was NOT the world Adam was created into, Adam brought sin into OUR WORLD not the world that then was.


As we have just seen that before the flood in Noah's day that covered the earth there was a flood long before that which overflowed the HEAVEN and EARTH THAT THEN WAS.

So why did God have need overflow the HEAVEN and EARTH that then was?


Because of the angels that sinned and kept not their first estate.

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;



Jude 6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 

According to the book of Revelation there was a war in HEAVEN and the OLD SERPENT called the DEVIL was cast out along with his ANGELS into the EARTH.

Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


What was the reason for this war?

According to Is. And Eze. It was because Satan wanted to exalt himself and be like the most High.

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!  13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 


Ezekiel 28:11-19
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. 

Now I know some see these scriptures as referring to Satan, some to man(Adam) and some to the antichrist.

For myself I believe it is referring to all 3, there are layers to scripture and each layer holds the truth. Just read what the scriptures state about the antichrist and then compare those scriptures to these ones and you will see how these scriptures have reference to him.
Then read what the scriptures state about man (Adam) and you will see how these scriptures have reference to him. And just as they have reference to both man (Adam) and the antichrist they also have if you read about Satan reference to him. It is layer upon layer upon layer.

The problem with most people is that they see one layer and believe that it is the only layer there is, but you don't often find gold lying upon the earth, you have to mine for it.

[pneuma]

Thus Satan and his angels were cast into the earth and then HEAVENS and EARTH THAT THEN WAS were overflowed with water.

Now some might ask if Satan and his angels were overflowed with water why are they here in OUR world?

Herein is one of those layers to scripture I spoke on earlier. Lucifer is in reference to Satan and man and the reason why is because in the earth that then was Satan was a MAN. That does not mean he was a MAN such as we are, but is different from us in the same way the angelic are MEN yet differ from us. Man was made a little lower then the angelic.

I already know many are shaking their heads at this and probably thinking I am nuts, but all through scripture angels are referred to as MEN.

Revelation 21:17
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

We all know of the story of Sodom and Gomorra and how 3 MEN met Abraham and how 2 of those MEN went into that city and the scriptures tell us those 2 MEN were ANGELS. Gen. chapters 18 and 19


Now some might say ok I have a point but that does not explain why Satan is here in OUR world.

The reason being is he is now a SPIRIT, just as the waters that overflowed in the days of Noah did not destroy  MANS SPIRIT just MANS body so to in the flood that overflowed the earth that then was.

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Thus the body was dead but the SPIRIT lives on.



For a clearer understanding of this look again of what it says in Isaiah and what happened to Lucifer. Scripture states that he would be cast down to HELL.

HELL here is SHEOL in the Hebrew and  HADES in the Greek and means the place of the DEAD or dwelling place of the DEAD.

Yet in Revelations it say Satan is cast into the EARTH thus making HELL (SHEOL/HADES) here on EARTH.

Think about what God said would happen to Adam if he ate from the tree, God said Adam would DIE in the DAY he ate from it.

So what happened to Adam on the DAY he ate?

He was cast out of the garden into HELL (SHEOL/HADES) and as ALL die in Adam ALL are in the place of the DEAD which is HELL (SHEOL/HADES).

Proverbs 15:24 says
24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Deuteronomy 32:22 says
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.   


These scripture are clear testimony that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the EARTH we live in, for how else can the fire that burns into the lowest HELL consume the EARTH.


Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Ever wonder why the everlasting fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels and nothing is said about it being prepared for mankind?

It because this EARTH (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) was not PREPARED for man, the GARDEN was /is to be our dwelling place.



Remember HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is the dwelling place of the DEAD.

Now read

Ephesians 2:1-6


And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is clear from these scriptures that those who walk according to the course of THIS WORLD are DEAD in trespasses and sin, and that Jesus came to give us LIFE that we may sit with Him in HEAVENLY PLACES. Thus Jesus came to save us OUT OF HELL.


So then now that we have seen that the HEAVEN and EARTH that then was, was overflowed with water, that HELL (SHEOL/HADES) is this EARTHLY REALM and that Satan dwells in this prison house as SPIRIT we can gain some insight to why Gen.1:2 says the EARTH BECAME WITHOUT FORM and the reason why God RECREATED the EARTH and placed MAN into it.

Satan is now a SPIRIT and is the god and prince of this world


2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


And is why scripture tells us that when we walked according to the course of this world
We walked according to the prince of the power of the air, that SPIRIT that worketh in the children of disobedience.

Ephesians 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

This world is not God world but Satan's and he is king in it and when Adam disobeyed God Adam entered into the Satan's world the dwelling place of the DEAD.

This is seen in that Jesus states

John 8:23
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus is NOT of this WORLD and is why the prince of this WORLD has nothing in Him.

Jesus also states

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus KINGDOM is NOT of this WORLD, and this can be seen in Jesus temptation of the DEVIL.

Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

It is obvious that for one to give something away one must be in possession of that which one gives away. Thus the KINGDOMS of THIS WORLD belong to Satan.

We all know of the Greek mythology of HADES and how he is the ruler of his domain, did you ever wonder were this mythology came from?

It is not just something the Greek made up, it comes from the truth and like all of Satan's tricks he corrupted the truth with mythology so man cannot discern fact from fiction.

There is truth in all mythology but it is covered up in mythology so that we cannot see the truth for the mythology, kind of like we can't see the forest for all the trees.

I watched a program on TV awhile back and etched in the stones of the days of the Pharaohs when Israel was held captive was a story written about a man god who came to earth and died and rose again, it basically followed the story of Jesus, but was of Egyptian origin and this man god was of the Egyptians. The program was used to say the Christian  of today believe in one of the myths of the Egyptians. That we took this myth that was written thousands of years before Christ and made up our own myths to support our religion.

So were did the Egyptians thousands of years before Christ came come up with this myth that so resembles the truth found in Christ?

The answer can be found in that  Israel was a captive of Egypt and the Egyptians more then likely after reading their scriptures much as did the Romans in the day of Christ understood in part a truth written in them, or more likely thought to themselves that these Israelites have a better sounding God then the ones we serves so let's make up our own version of their God and put it before the people. Thus taking the truth found in scripture and corrupting it.

So then we can see that Satan  the ruler of this world.

So why would God create man from the dust of this world, which is the dust of the dead.

This is the age old question: WHY did God make MAN.


The answer is not what you likely think it is.

God created MAN for the salvation of the ANGELIC.


Just as God sent Jesus into this world (HELL/SHEOL/HADES) to save man, Jesus sends forth His body (the church) to make known the fellowship of the mystery, which mystery is the salvation of the whole kosmos, which was God intent from the BEGININNG, to the principalities and powers in heavenly places.

Ephesians 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This is seen more fully when we see that kingdoms of THIS WORLD which belong to Satan become the kingdoms of our LORD.

Revelation 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.  19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 

What! know ye not that we shall judge angels? 1Co.6:3

Man simply does not realise his full potential in Christ, for Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1 Corinthians 2:9


God bless