The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Molly]

Ever wonder if that battle takes place in our spirit as we ascend?   So is the sadness in heaven where the angels reside, or where we reside now?   

Is there heaven on earth?

Something to think about.   

The battle takes place as we ascend, yes.  That's a great way to put it.  I spend a lot of time in one of those heavens--but it takes constant renewing of my mind, and eyes on Jesus--because when I look at the wind and waves of the world, I start to sink like a rock.  As you pull away from the world, you are able to see things in a much more objective light--and the insanity and tragedy of it. 

As we are lifted up, we become a city on a hill.  Paul talks about being a 'spectacle.'

...for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

1 Cor 4


The world doesn't see what we see--so to some we are a light on a hill, but to others a spectacle, as it was in the days of Noah building his ark while others laughed at him.


But, yes, I believe the goal is heaven on earth, as we are to demonstrate the meaning of that to men and angels.  For that to happen, satan has to be eliminated altogether, which we do by the choices we make all day long--such choices not to be minimized because they take a lot of courage, being performed, as they are, in the light of day--not hidden in the darkness of behind closed doors.



Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[Molly]

10In conclusion, be strong in the Lord [be empowered through your union with Him]; draw your strength from Him [that strength which His boundless might provides].

    11Put on God's whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil.

    12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

    13Therefore put on God's complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place].

    14Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and of moral rectitude and right standing with God,

    15And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness produced by the good news] of the Gospel of peace.

    16Lift up over all the [covering] shield of saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one].

    17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit wields, which is the Word of God.

    18Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God's consecrated people).


--Ephesians 6




8For You have put everything in subjection under his feet. Now in putting everything in subjection to man, He left nothing outside [of man's] control. But at present we do not yet see all things subjected to him [man].

--Hebrews 2




7How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good tidings, who publishes peace, who brings good tidings of good, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, Your God reigns!

--Isa 52

[Molly]

Luke 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.


John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.



Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.



John 11
9Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.



Psalm 139:12
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.




Rev 21

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

[rosered]

Ever wonder if that battle takes place in our spirit as we ascend?   So is the sadness in heaven where the angels reside, or where we reside now?   

Is there heaven on earth?

Something to think about.   

The battle takes place as we ascend, yes.  That's a great way to put it.  I spend a lot of time in one of those heavens--but it takes constant renewing of my mind, and eyes on Jesus--because when I look at the wind and waves of the world, I start to sink like a rock.  As you pull away from the world, you are able to see things in a much more objective light--and the insanity and tragedy of it. 

  yous see the night/darkness/ lack of knowledge  as the shadow

  the Lawof moses   that John the baptist speaks of ?
  this is   passing over from death  to Life 
when the Day  /Jesus Christ comes it is  a decent/lower  place  of sorts to me 
  like John told Jesus    here He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Decrease (Verb)1  Strong's Number: 1642 Greek: elattoo
signifies "to make less or inferior, in quality, position or dignity;" "madest ... lower" and "hast made ... lower," in Hbr 2:7,9. In Jhn 3:30, it is used in the Middle Voice, in John the Baptist's "I must decrease," indicating the special interest he had in his own "decrease," i.e., in authority and popularity. See LOWER. 
  as the Light/knowledge of God  shines  brighter as the Day   remains  and the night is   darker
  without the moon [ law ] to shine in the night no stars[angels ] are seen in the Day  only at night /law of moses moon ,Easton's Bible DictionaryMoonheb. yareah, from its paleness ( Ezr 6:15), and lebanah, the "white" ( Sgs 6:10; Isa 24:23), was appointed by the Creator to be with the sun "for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years" ( Gen 1:14-16). A lunation was among the Jews the period of a month, and several of their festivals were held on the day of the new moon. It is frequently referred to along with the sun ( Jos 10:12; Psa 72:5,7,17; 89:36,37; Ecc 12:2; Isa 24:23, etc.), and also by itself ( Psa 8:3; 121:6).

The great brilliance of the moon in Eastern countries led to its being early an object of idolatrous worship ( Deu 4:19; 17:3; Job 31:26), a form of idolatry against which the Jews were warned ( Deu 4:19; 17:3). They, however, fell into this idolatry, and offered incense ( 2Ki 23:5; Jer 8:2), and also cakes of honey, to the moon ( Jer 7:18; 44:17-19,25).

  I read  that none can keep the whole Law of moses
  but the Law of  liberty   is by faith in Jesus Christ [ His works ]Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

[Taffy]

Ever wonder if that battle takes place in our spirit as we ascend?   So is the sadness in heaven where the angels reside, or where we reside now?   

Is there heaven on earth?

Something to think about.   

The battle takes place as we ascend, yes.  That's a great way to put it.  I spend a lot of time in one of those heavens--but it takes constant renewing of my mind, and eyes on Jesus--because when I look at the wind and waves of the world, I start to sink like a rock.  As you pull away from the world, you are able to see things in a much more objective light--and the insanity and tragedy of it. 

  yous see the night/darkness/ lack of knowledge  as the shadow

  the Lawof moses   that John the baptist speaks of ?
  this is   passing over from death  to Life 
when the Day  /Jesus Christ comes it is  a decent/lower  place  of sorts to me 
  like John told Jesus    here He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I [must] decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Decrease (Verb)1  Strong's Number: 1642 Greek: elattoo
signifies "to make less or inferior, in quality, position or dignity;" "madest ... lower" and "hast made ... lower," in Hbr 2:7,9. In Jhn 3:30, it is used in the Middle Voice, in John the Baptist's "I must decrease," indicating the special interest he had in his own "decrease," i.e., in authority and popularity. See LOWER. 
  as the Light/knowledge of God  shines  brighter as the Day   remains  and the night is   darker
  without the moon [ law ] to shine in the night no stars[angels ] are seen in the Day  only at night /law of moses moon ,Easton's Bible DictionaryMoonheb. yareah, from its paleness ( Ezr 6:15), and lebanah, the "white" ( Sgs 6:10; Isa 24:23), was appointed by the Creator to be with the sun "for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years" ( Gen 1:14-16). A lunation was among the Jews the period of a month, and several of their festivals were held on the day of the new moon. It is frequently referred to along with the sun ( Jos 10:12; Psa 72:5,7,17; 89:36,37; Ecc 12:2; Isa 24:23, etc.), and also by itself ( Psa 8:3; 121:6).

The great brilliance of the moon in Eastern countries led to its being early an object of idolatrous worship ( Deu 4:19; 17:3; Job 31:26), a form of idolatry against which the Jews were warned ( Deu 4:19; 17:3). They, however, fell into this idolatry, and offered incense ( 2Ki 23:5; Jer 8:2), and also cakes of honey, to the moon ( Jer 7:18; 44:17-19,25).

  I read  that none can keep the whole Law of moses
  but the Law of  liberty   is by faith in Jesus Christ [ His works ]Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

:thumbsup:
Amen sis,..ive not read fully the thread being away as such , just caught this last post, so not wishing to take the thread out of context...

yous see the night/darkness/ lack of knowledge  as the shadow

  the Lawof moses   that John the baptist speaks of ?

Tis like seeing throu the GLASS """"""""""""""""DARKLY"""""""""""""""""""""", JB being symbolic of The LAW which came BEFORE as a Witness, Noted in John....The law shows US for what we are (Romans 7)...but its the SHADOW of the Reality to follow, Moving from DEATH to LIFE,...THE  Lack which you mention, I see In Rom 2, called the FORM(semblence), But NOT the Truth,Tis a FORM of TRUTH., The SHADOW,...As Pual Notes when a Child( nepios) I talked as a Child, meaning as ONE UNDER LAW, But Now FULL GROWN(MAN) I speak as a SON of Faith...

Love ya Post Kiddo.

Gramster

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:

  great to see you about  mate ! missed ya , love  ya sis ... rose
 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother Scott... :hithere:

I must continue to disagree with you bro... but, please know that I do have deep respect for your knowledge and your deep dedication to GOD and the truth...

I just think there is something new for you to learn here...  :cloud9:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

The angels that kept not thier first estate scripture comes to mind and of course the book of Enoch speaks of them falling but will not use it as reference because you already said it won't count to you.

You are correct in this assumption... I do NOT hold the book of Enoch as Scripture, and therefore its writings have no bearing on what IS Scripture...

This is a traditional viewpoint... and you do not stand alone... on the contrary... It is I which find few that might see this differently Scott...

the "angels" which kept not their "first estate" are MEN... not ANGELIC beings which once were part of the PERFECT and UNDEFILED Domain of YHVH...

If you read in the context in which JUDE mentions these "angels" ...did AS did those in Sodom & Gomorrah, gave themselves over to STRANGE FLESH (not spirit), doing likewise (Jude 7 & 8)

Jude 6-8  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hat reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day... even AS Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them IN LIKE MANNER, ...giving themselves OVER to FORNICATION, and GOING AFTER STRANGE FLESH, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengence of eternal fire... Likewise also these dreamers DEFILE THE FLESH, despise dominion and speak evil of dignities...  (the bearers of truth)

ANGELS do not give themselves over to FLESH, nor FORNICATION, strange or otherwise... :mnah:

(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"?

They either fell before the recreation of the world or after, not sure myself, but God did not make the earth void, yet in Gen.1:1 it says the earth was(which is also translated BECAME) void.

The word Hebrew word (#H922 strongs) BOHUW which is translated into the english word,VOID in Gen 1:1 simply means EMPTINESS or VACUITY (as OUTER SPACE is yet found for the MOST PART - material is RARE in the UNIVERSE... VOID is COMMON)... in other words, until EARTH was SPOKEN of by GOD... it was in a state of EMPTINESS, just as does remain ...MOST of the UNIVERSE...

The reason that nothing is said in the Bible about Salvation for ANGELS, is because they never FELL into "sin" and are therefore, not in need of salvation...

(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?

In that Christ died for the WORLD which is kosmos and incases everything He created, not just the earth.

ANGELS of GOD are NOT created beings... they have ALWAYS BEEN... Please name any reference in Scripture which speaks of their CREATION,

Therefore, CHRIST did not DIE for ANGELS, He died for CREATION... All living entities which have found DEATH, have done so because of the SIN which was brought upon CREATION by MAN...  Not ANGELS...

This is why there is an ABSENCE of notation in Scripture about the "CREATION" of ANGELS, and an equal ABSENCE of notation of SALVATION concerning ANGELIC beings.  :dontknow:

(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

But Willie the angelic do die, for the wages of sin is death and the second DEATH is prepared for the DEVIL and his ANGELS, thus a good reference to them also being sinners and paying the wages of sin.

Again Scott, this is evidence that you maintain a measure of traditional views... I do not demean you for it... I just contend that you are yet veiled concerning ANGELS of GOD...

What it comes down to, is that you view...

The "devil and HIS angels" as LITERAL "angelic beings"... and draw said reference from a book of SYMBOLISM, ...then promptly note LITERAL perspective concerning the SYMBOLS of the "devil and his angels",  and the "2nd death"... 

The truth (which you shall disagree with), is that the DEVIL is ADVERSITY in MAN... and "ITS" angels... are the HUMAN messengers which continue to bring their TRADITIONAL (Matt 15:6 / Mk 7:13) message of ADVERSITY to the WORLD... making the Word of GOD of NONE EFFECT...  :sigh:  (Jude 6) -- Bound in CHAINS under DARKNESS (of that tradition) ...

Teaching that GOD shall TORMENT His creatures (and ANGELS) in an UNGODLY and UNFORGIVING way, or alternatively, ...that He shall just KILL them...  :thumbdown: 

NO ANGELS of GOD, ...ever have or ever will... DIE!  :teaching:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

:hithere: Hi Willie  :HeartThrob:

ANGELS of GOD are NOT created beings... they have ALWAYS BEEN... Please name any reference in Scripture which speaks of their CREATION

We had a little clash about 'always been' at the start of this thread. Then you just ignored why I said (asked)
Now you bring it up again so here am I again  :laughing7:
One thing first when I speak of the age of God that's just for making explanation easier (for me) So I agree with you He is of unlimted age. Or as you say just "IS" or "always been". Ok?

So you are saying that the angles are of the same age as God? => angles have "always been" just like God.
If your answer is no the the angles must have come into existance at some point.
No I can not state a verse claiming that. But that's perhaps the Bible is mainly about what happens on earth.
And even a selection from that.
In all the time 'God is' with His Son around and according to you also the angles there sure have be some interaction/conversation between them in that unlimited 'time'
I think you agree with me that let's call it the 'history of God' can't be decribed in the few thousand pages the Bible has.
So perhaps some info isn't in the Bible because God deemed it not relavant.

[WhiteWings]

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

the "angels" which kept not their "first estate" are MEN... not ANGELIC beings which once were part of the PERFECT and UNDEFILED Domain of YHVH...

According to Strong Angel means messenger (of God). So a being that lets call it acts as a postman between God and people. With that I sorta debunk the few lines I will write below; but perhaps in a way they make even sense to you  :laughing7:

The Garden of Eden was a undefiled place. Adam and Eve where good people too.
Until the sepent changed all that.
Adam and Eve fell (as in fallen) to sin.
The Garden got defilled with sin.
Adam and Eve got kicked out their "first estate"

[CHB]

Hi All,

This verse comes to mind when talking about sinning angels and a fall. 

(Heb.9:23) it was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

What need would there be for sacrifices for the heavens if there was no sin there?

Also, it says that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels  when he took on human flesh. If angels don't exist how do you explain this?


(Job 4:18) Behold he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.

(Job 15:15) Behold he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Also, it says in (Col. 1:16:20) that ALL THINGS were created by him whether they be things in heaven or things on earth, visible and invisible. He will reconcile all things unto himself, whether they are things in earth or things in heaven. 

If there are no angels in heaven what is God going to reconcile unto himself?

I believe everything here on earth is a pattern of things in heaven. Maybe we have angels that look like us? Remember Peter knocking at the door and the disciples thought the woman had seen his angel (Acts 12:15). Why would they say "it is his angel"? Also Saul calling up samuel? This being looked like Samuel, but it couldn't have been for samuel was dead. (Heb. 8:5) Moses was given a pattern to make the tabernacle. (Heb. 9:23) mentions the "patterns of things in the heavens". (Ex. 25:40) "make them after their pattern". (Num. 8:4) "according unto the pattern shewed thee".

I do believe there are spirit beings and each of us has an angel that may look just like us. (Matt. 18:10) That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(Acts 23:8) For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees confess both.

Just my  :2c:

CHB

[pneuma]

willieH: Hi brother Scott...

I must continue to disagree with you bro... but, please know that I do have deep respect for your knowledge and your deep dedication to GOD and the truth...

I just think there is something new for you to learn here...

Hi Willie, what you put forth here is not new to me brother, I also have contemplated that the angels which kept not there first estate was in reference to MAN but that does not bear out in scripture IMO.

Quote from: willieH
(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

Quote from: pneuma on September 29, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
The angels that kept not thier first estate scripture comes to mind and of course the book of Enoch speaks of them falling but will not use it as reference because you already said it won't count to you.

You are correct in this assumption... I do NOT hold the book of Enoch as Scripture, and therefore its writings have no bearing on what IS Scripture...

This is a traditional viewpoint... and you do not stand alone... on the contrary... It is I which find few that might see this differently Scott...

Not all tradition is in error bro, you yourself stand on tradition concerning the canon of 66 books.

the "angels" which kept not their "first estate" are MEN... not ANGELIC beings which once were part of the PERFECT and UNDEFILED Domain of YHVH...

You have yet to show anywhere in scripture that the angelic are or were PERFECT Willie, until you can show me this by scripture it is just conjecture on your part.

If you read in the context in which JUDE mentions these "angels" ...did AS did those in Sodom & Gomorrah, gave themselves over to STRANGE FLESH (not spirit), doing likewise (Jude 7 & 8)

Jude 6-8 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hat reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day... even AS Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them IN LIKE MANNER, ...giving themselves OVER to FORNICATION, and GOING AFTER STRANGE FLESH, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengence of eternal fire... Likewise also these dreamers DEFILE THE FLESH, despise dominion and speak evil of dignities... (the bearers of truth)

ANGELS do not give themselves over to FLESH, nor FORNICATION, strange or otherwise...

A couple of things here Willie that need to be pointed out is that is says of these angels is that they kept not their FIRST ESTATE but left their own HABITATION.

FIRST: This CANNOT be speaking of man for mans FIRST ESTATE is one of corruption according to Paul. 1Co.15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The natural is sown in corruption then raised in incorruption.

Therefore we know MANS FIRST ESTATE is one of corruption.

We also can see this in Gen. in that MAN was not created IN the GARDEN but OUTSIDE of the GARDEN and then put INTO the GARDEN. Gen.2:8,15 & Gen.3:23

Thus showing MANS FIRST ESTATE was NOT of the GARDEN but of the EARTH EARTHY.

SECOND: Not all FLESH is the SAME FLESH, for there are celestial and terrestrial BODIES. Thus for one to go after STRANGE FLESH would be one who had a celestial body going after one who had a terrestrial body and vice versa. Fornication does not mean just sexual intercourse but is also in reference to IDOLATRY, thus we see the angelic giving IDOL-A-TRY or giving idol worship a try  :bigGrin:,worshiping the creature instead of the creator.

Quote from: willieH
(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"?

Quote from: pneuma on September 29, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
They either fell before the recreation of the world or after, not sure myself, but God did not make the earth void, yet in Gen.1:1 it says the earth was(which is also translated BECAME) void.

The word Hebrew word (#H922 strongs) BOHUW which is translated into the english word,VOID in Gen 1:1 simply means EMPTINESS or VACUITY (as OUTER SPACE is yet found for the MOST PART - material is RARE in the UNIVERSE... VOID is COMMON)... in other words, until EARTH was SPOKEN of by GOD... it was in a state of EMPTINESS, just as does remain ...MOST of the UNIVERSE...

I think you missed my point bro. Genesis 1:1 states
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Thus in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. There is NOTHING stated here about the earth being without form and void. So how did the earth become without form and void? When Is.45:18 states that God did NOT CREATE IT IN VAIN or WITHOUT FORM. So what happened between verse 1 and 2 that made the earth WITHOUT FORM?

Then verse two say

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

The word WAS is also translated BECAME so it can also be read

And the earth BECAME without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

The translation BECAME seem to match up better with Is.45:18 which state God did NOT create the earth WITHOUT FORM.

So if God did not create the earth WITHOUT FORM then something must have happened to the earth to make it that way. What happened?

Like I said I am not sure myself, but what if the angelic inhabited the earth before man did and on their account the earth BECAME WITHOUT FORM. Would this also not help to account for the age of the earth?

The reason that nothing is said in the Bible about Salvation for ANGELS, is because they never FELL into "sin" and are therefore, not in need of salvation...

Ephesians 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The manifold wisdom of God is to be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places Willie so to what end is it to be made known unto them? So that they also might come into the realisation that the blood of Christ is also applicable to them.

These principalities and powers cannot be something to do with mans carnal mind bro for the carnal mind CANNOT be reconciled, CANNOT understand spiritual things, and is NOT subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be. So how in the world is the manifold wisdom of God made known to it?

Quote from: willieH
(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?

Quote from: pneuma on September 29, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
In that Christ died for the WORLD which is kosmos and incases everything He created, not just the earth.

ANGELS of GOD are NOT created beings... they have ALWAYS BEEN... Please name any reference in Scripture which speaks of their CREATION,

Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Seems to me ALL THINGS in heaven and earth both visible and invisible were created by HIM, for by Him do all things consists.

If the angelic have always been bro then not all things were created by Him. So you would have to show me a scripture that states not all things were made by Him to prove your point of the angelic always being.

Therefore, CHRIST did not DIE for ANGELS, He died for CREATION... All living entities which have found DEATH, have done so because of the SIN which was brought upon CREATION by MAN... Not ANGELS...

Jesus blood was shed for ALL of His creation brother and scripture testifies to that effect time and time again.

This is why there is an ABSENCE of notation in Scripture about the "CREATION" of ANGELS, and an equal ABSENCE of notation of SALVATION concerning ANGELIC beings.

I have given you scripture Willie, but you see the principalities and powers in heavenly places as being something to do with our carnal minds, and as I pointed out that CANNOT be the case for the carnal mind CANNOT be reconciled by the blood of Christ.

But here are a few more that state the angelic were created by God.

Psalm 148:2-5
2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 

Nehemiah 9:6
6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

That they sin and are in need of salvation


Job 4:18-19
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:  19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

Makes the distinction of the angelic and those who dwell in houses of clay (man)

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

You will note if you keep reading that the order in 2Pet. Is in chronological order, the angelic sinned first then the days of Noah and then of Sodom and Gomorrah, seems to hint at what I said earlier about the angelic being the ones to cause the earth to become without form.

Quote from: willieH
(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

Quote from: pneuma on September 29, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
But Willie the angelic do die, for the wages of sin is death and the second DEATH is prepared for the DEVIL and his ANGELS, thus a good reference to them also being sinners and paying the wages of sin.

Again Scott, this is evidence that you maintain a measure of traditional views... I do not demean you for it... I just contend that you are yet veiled concerning ANGELS of GOD...

What it comes down to, is that you view...

The "devil and HIS angels" as LITERAL "angelic beings"... and draw said reference from a book of SYMBOLISM, ...then promptly note LITERAL perspective concerning the SYMBOLS of the "devil and his angels", and the "2nd death"...

The truth (which you shall disagree with), is that the DEVIL is ADVERSITY in MAN... and "ITS" angels... are the HUMAN messengers which continue to bring their TRADITIONAL (Matt 15:6 / Mk 7:13) message of ADVERSITY to the WORLD... making the Word of GOD of NONE EFFECT... (Jude 6) -- Bound in CHAINS under DARKNESS (of that tradition) ...

Teaching that GOD shall TORMENT His creatures (and ANGELS) in an UNGODLY and UNFORGIVING way, or alternatively, ...that He shall just KILL them...

NO ANGELS of GOD, ...ever have or ever will... DIE!

Willie I have seen to much of the devil and his angels to believe they are the creation of mans mind, they have names, they have personalities and they are cast out by the word of God, you might think I am standing on tradition bro but I am going by what I have seen and no one can tell me that what I have seen is just my imagination of something I made up in my carnal mind.

What you would have me believe is that Jesus was talking to himself when he was tempted of the devil, which would mean Jesus had a carnal mind.

[pneuma]

Adam and Eve got kicked out their "first estate"

problem with that is Adams FIRST ESTATE was NOT IN the garden.

Read my reply to Willie

[pneuma]

Hi All,

This verse comes to mind when talking about sinning angels and a fall. 

(Heb.9:23) it was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

What need would there be for sacrifices for the heavens if there was no sin there?

Also, it says that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels  when he took on human flesh. If angels don't exist how do you explain this?


(Job 4:18) Behold he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.

(Job 15:15) Behold he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Also, it says in (Col. 1:16:20) that ALL THINGS were created by him whether they be things in heaven or things on earth, visible and invisible. He will reconcile all things unto himself, whether they are things in earth or things in heaven. 

If there are no angels in heaven what is God going to reconcile unto himself?

I believe everything here on earth is a pattern of things in heaven. Maybe we have angels that look like us? Remember Peter knocking at the door and the disciples thought the woman had seen his angel (Acts 12:15). Why would they say "it is his angel"? Also Saul calling up samuel? This being looked like Samuel, but it couldn't have been for samuel was dead. (Heb. 8:5) Moses was given a pattern to make the tabernacle. (Heb. 9:23) mentions the "patterns of things in the heavens". (Ex. 25:40) "make them after their pattern". (Num. 8:4) "according unto the pattern shewed thee".

I do believe there are spirit beings and each of us has an angel that may look just like us. (Matt. 18:10) That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(Acts 23:8) For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees confess both.

Just my  :2c:

CHB

:thumbsup:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW!!  :cloud9:

:hithere: Hi Willie  :HeartThrob:

ANGELS of GOD are NOT created beings... they have ALWAYS BEEN... Please name any reference in Scripture which speaks of their CREATION

A hearty  :HeartThrob: HELLO to you as well bro!

We had a little clash about 'always been' at the start of this thread. Then you just ignored why I said (asked)

Sorry bro,  :doh: ...I must have missed your question, I did not mean to ignore you!  :mblush:

Now you bring it up again so here am I again  :laughing7:
One thing first when I speak of the age of God that's just for making explanation easier (for me) So I agree with you He is of unlimted age. Or as you say just "IS" or "always been". Ok?

Let me clarify my view of GOD... GOD is OUTSIDE of TIME, and TIME has no bearing on Him whatsoever!  He is NOT old or young or any other connotation which TIME demands upon beings WITHIN it's realm...

So "unlimited age" is inaccurate from where I view Him... AGE is NOT APPLICABLE to Him... He has no beginning or end, and only things with these attributes can an "AGE" be attached...

So you are saying that the angles are of the same age as God? => angles have "always been" just like God.

AGE is not a relevant factor in the HEAVENLY/ETERNAL realm...

Not only do I assert that ANGELS have ALWAYS BEEN, but so have the SONS of GOD. (of which WE are numbered)...  :HeartThrob:

If your answer is no the the angles must have come into existance at some point.

My answer was not "no"...  :cloud9:

No I can not state a verse claiming that. But that's perhaps the Bible is mainly about what happens on earth.
And even a selection from that.

Agreed... and BECAUSE the Bible is about mainly what happens on earth, we have so little information to establish that HEAVEN has been brought into a supposed SIN scenario... and WHY "Heavenly SIN" is a poor and (IMO false) arguement with little to establish it...

What ...I... propose, is that the "things IN HEAVEN" which are in need of RECONCILIATION is the BODY of CHRIST and TEMPLE of YHVH, which NEVER changes...  WE are that BODY and TEMPLE... (not "will be" or "were", but ARE)...

In all the time 'God is' with His Son around and according to you also the angles there sure have be some interaction/conversation between them in that unlimited 'time'

Again bro... TIME was created at the BEGINNING of EARTHLY things... it was NOT, is NOT, and NEVER WILL BE, present in the HEAVENLY realm where ETERNAL things exist ETERNALLY...  :dontknow:

ETERNITY is NOT "unlimited time"... it is PERPETUAL existence WITHOUT beginning or end...

I think you agree with me that let's call it the 'history of God' can't be decribed in the few thousand pages the Bible has.
So perhaps some info isn't in the Bible because God deemed it not relavant.

I do not think there is such a thing as the "history of GOD"... for HISTORY marks TIME, and is that which REtraces the PAST... That which has NO PAST or FUTURE (again, parameters found of and in, TIME), has NO "HISTORY"...

I DO agree with you that HEAVENLY existence is IRRELEVANT to FINITE beings... as much as COLOR is NOT RELEVANT to a BLIND man... 

It is NOT part of our ability to COMPREHEND Heavenly things which is WHY CHRIST found it IRRELEVANT and UNFRUITFUL to expound upon them, (John 3:12) ...nor does its existent DOINGS "fit in" with that which transpires in TIME...

Basically, the only thing RELEVANT to us from HEAVENLY perspective is the RECONCILING work of the Word of GOD which delivers us from this FINITE realm of DEATH due to SIN (within the gaining of the knowledge of Good and Evil)... BACK to the LIFE of ETERNITY...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

Sorry bro,  :doh: ...I must have missed your question, I did not mean to ignore you!  :mblush:

And again you get upset about 'age' while I clearly stated that I just use it for ease of explanation...
I even said you should read "is"
But still you waste half of your post on it. It clarifies nothing. On the contrary it just makes the remaining answers harder to read. Or should I say harder to find :happy3:
Bad baaaaad doggy!  :laughing7:

No I can not state a verse claiming that. But that's perhaps the Bible is mainly about what happens on earth.
And even a selection from that.

Agreed... and BECAUSE the Bible is about mainly what happens on earth, we have so little information to establish that HEAVEN has been brought into a supposed SIN scenario... and WHY "Heavenly SIN" is a poor and (IMO false) arguement with little to establish it...

Little can be enough. I/we need just one verse.

I think you agree with me that let's call it the 'history of God' can't be decribed in the few thousand pages the Bible has.
So perhaps some info isn't in the Bible because God deemed it not relavant.

I do not think there is such a thing as the "history of GOD"... for HISTORY marks TIME,

Another 'time answer'
Sorry Willie I give up. This only lead to high blood pressure and a bad  :HeartThrob:

Take care :friendstu: ,

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott!  :hithere:

:omg:  Whoa!  :heat: ...I thought my answer was long!  I realize you had to refer, as will I, ...but I suggest you better grab a lunch bro!!!  ...  :ok:

This answer will be in TWO PARTS:

PART ONE:

willieH: Hi brother Scott...

I must continue to disagree with you bro... but, please know that I do have deep respect for your knowledge and your deep dedication to GOD and the truth...

I just think there is something new for you to learn here...

Hi Willie, what you put forth here is not new to me brother, I also have contemplated that the angels which kept not there first estate was in reference to MAN but that does not bear out in scripture IMO.

Carry on...  :dontknow:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

Quote from: pneuma on September 29, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
The angels that kept not thier first estate scripture comes to mind and of course the book of Enoch speaks of them falling but will not use it as reference because you already said it won't count to you.

You are correct in this assumption... I do NOT hold the book of Enoch as Scripture, and therefore its writings have no bearing on what IS Scripture...

This is a traditional viewpoint... and you do not stand alone... on the contrary... It is I which find few that might see this differently Scott...

Not all tradition is in error bro, you yourself stand on tradition concerning the canon of 66 books.

Tradition is that which deters the EFFECTIVENESS of the WORD... I see this as a straw man arguement, for  within it's proposal, it deduces that ANY observance of ANY set of SCRIPTURES is TRADITIONAL...  If that were so, the ANY observance of ANY set of SCRIPTURES would render the WORD ...INEFFECTIVE...  :dontknow:

the "angels" which kept not their "first estate" are MEN... not ANGELIC beings which once were part of the PERFECT and UNDEFILED Domain of YHVH...

You have yet to show anywhere in scripture that the angelic are or were PERFECT Willie, until you can show me this by scripture it is just conjecture on your part.

Again, an evasive straw man answer... In your own ASSERTION, do you prove PERFECTION concerning ANGELIC BEINGS in the HEAVENLY realm... YOU assert that ANGELS FELL in SIN... therefore it is ON YOU to prove this occured... furthermore... THEY had to be in a PERFECT (incorruptible) state in order to FALL FROM IT... (corruptible)

RECONCILIATION is from an IMPERFECT state to an PERFECT state:  (1 Cor 15:42, 49-54)

If you read in the context in which JUDE mentions these "angels" ...did AS did those in Sodom & Gomorrah, gave themselves over to STRANGE FLESH (not spirit), doing likewise (Jude 7 & 8)

Jude 6-8 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hat reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day... even AS Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them IN LIKE MANNER, ...giving themselves OVER to FORNICATION, and GOING AFTER STRANGE FLESH, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengence of eternal fire... Likewise also these dreamers DEFILE THE FLESH, despise dominion and speak evil of dignities... (the bearers of truth)

ANGELS do not give themselves over to FLESH, nor FORNICATION, strange or otherwise...

A couple of things here Willie that need to be pointed out is that is says of these angels is that they kept not their FIRST ESTATE but left their own HABITATION.

FIRST: This CANNOT be speaking of man for mans FIRST ESTATE is one of corruption according to Paul. 1Co.15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The natural is sown in corruption then raised in incorruption.

Let me address this first... When a BABY is born, is he a SINNER?  Has he yet MISSED THE MARK (sin)?   It is when a CONSCIOUS decision to DISOBEY the command of GOD is made, that a Human being "puts on" corruption... prior to that, it is in an UNDEFILED state...

ALL have sinned (which notes that baby's destiny in time)... but until it DOES... it has no need of RECONCILIATION... thereby LEAVING his FIRST estate which was NOT corrupted...

Therefore we know MANS FIRST ESTATE is one of corruption.

We also can see this in Gen. in that MAN was not created IN the GARDEN but OUTSIDE of the GARDEN and then put INTO the GARDEN. Gen.2:8,15 & Gen.3:23

Thus showing MANS FIRST ESTATE was NOT of the GARDEN but of the EARTH EARTHY.

If man was OUTSIDE the "earthy", then His FIRST ESTATE is prior to that "EARTHY", is it not?  That his "geographical" location was changed had nothing to do with the STATE of his being... For before ADAM sinned, He was SINLESS... meaning his "FIRST ESTATE" was SINLESSNESS... which is INCORRUPTION, Scott...

SECOND: Not all FLESH is the SAME FLESH, for there are celestial and terrestrial BODIES. Thus for one to go after STRANGE FLESH would be one who had a celestial body going after one who had a terrestrial body and vice versa. Fornication does not mean just sexual intercourse but is also in reference to IDOLATRY, thus we see the angelic giving IDOL-A-TRY or giving idol worship a try  :bigGrin:,worshiping the creature instead of the creator.

You SIDESTEP the "AS", Scott... JUDE said "Even AS... Sodom and Gomorrah"...

The fact is that, Sodom & Gomorrah did not go after STRANGE Celestial FLESH... it went after STRANGE Terrestrial FLESH...  :dontknow:  And if these "angels" did AS Sodom & Gomorrah... then this same scenario is applicable to them...

(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"?

Quote from: pneuma on September 29, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
They either fell before the recreation of the world or after, not sure myself, but God did not make the earth void, yet in Gen.1:1 it says the earth was(which is also translated BECAME) void.

The word Hebrew word (#H922 strongs) BOHUW which is translated into the english word,VOID in Gen 1:1 simply means EMPTINESS or VACUITY (as OUTER SPACE is yet found for the MOST PART - material is RARE in the UNIVERSE... VOID is COMMON)... in other words, until EARTH was SPOKEN of by GOD... it was in a state of EMPTINESS, just as does remain ...MOST of the UNIVERSE...

I think you missed my point bro. Genesis 1:1 states
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Thus in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. There is NOTHING stated here about the earth being without form and void. So how did the earth become without form and void? When Is.45:18 states that God did NOT CREATE IT IN VAIN or WITHOUT FORM. So what happened between verse 1 and 2 that made the earth WITHOUT FORM?

You observe Gen 1:1, as do many which observe this verse trying to prove the DINOSAURS lived in a TIME other (prior) than the Biblical History indicates MAN has lived...

That Earth or MAN or Beasts or ANYTHING has not been pronounced to BE, it is found VOID or EMPTY... as I previously noted about OUTER SPACE... those vast distances of NOTHING are VOID of SOMETHING, just as the EARTH was prior to the CREATIVE power of the WORD of GOD, when SPOKEN...

I think YOU miss the point dear bro... GOD did not "CREATE the Earth" without FORM and VOID... It was IN that state until the WORD pronounced it otherwise...

The SPIRIT of GOD moved upon the face of the DEEP waters... which notes that WATER was first to EXIST... but the EARTH was yet to "surface" from the depths of the WATERS....

Then verse two say

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

The word WAS is also translated BECAME so it can also be read

And the earth BECAME without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

The translation BECAME seem to match up better with Is.45:18 which state God did NOT create the earth WITHOUT FORM.

So if God did not create the earth WITHOUT FORM then something must have happened to the earth to make it that way. What happened?

More "reaching"... When the FLOOD of Noah happened, the WATERS buried the Earth... until GOD called them to RECEDE... this is the picture of the Beginning Scott... not that the EARTH went through some prior AGE in which Dinosaurs and/or cave men existed...

If there was such an age, then the BEGINNING was not the BEGINNING, and the FIRST DAY was NOT the FIRST DAY...  :dontknow:

Like I said I am not sure myself, but what if the angelic inhabited the earth before man did and on their account the earth BECAME WITHOUT FORM. Would this also not help to account for the age of the earth?

Now YOU resort to CONJECTURE in order to attempt to establish PERFECT BEINGS (angelic within the realm of GOD), "falling" within that PERFECT scenario...

What Hebrew word is translated BECAME Scott?  And is it ABSOLUTELY ONLY "BECAME" exclusively?  I see the shadow of fallacy in your proposal...

The reason that nothing is said in the Bible about Salvation for ANGELS, is because they never FELL into "sin" and are therefore, not in need of salvation...

Ephesians 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The manifold wisdom of God is to be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places Willie so to what end is it to be made known unto them? So that they also might come into the realisation that the blood of Christ is also applicable to them.

The principalities in HEAVENLY PLACES Scott, are the minds and hearts of MEN, which ARE the BODY and TEMPLE of GOD... (1 Cor 12:27 / 1 Cor 6:19) ...Not ANGELS which "fell" while in a PERFECT domain/scenario...

These principalities and powers cannot be something to do with mans carnal mind bro for the carnal mind CANNOT be reconciled, CANNOT understand spiritual things, and is NOT subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be. So how in the world is the manifold wisdom of God made known to it?

FIRST brother S... ALL POWER is of GOD... (Rom 13:1), including what you mistakenly percieve as your "free will"... ALL have been CONCLUDED as sinners BY GOD... (Rom 11:32)

Whatsoever is NOT of FAITH (unbelief) IS SIN! (Rom 14:23)

Wow!  I cannot believe you actually said what you just said Scott... stumbling within your own words and desire to be correct, you miss the WHOLE POINT that is transpiring in all this Earthly suffering, bro!

The carnal mind (missing the mark=sin) RECONCILED, ...IS, the MIND of CHRIST bro! (hitting the mark=WILL of GOD)

The EARTHLY, SINFUL mind is (RE)MADE NEW bro!  As CHRIST is REVEALED from within it... (2 Cor 5:17)

ALL THINGS are OF GOD Scott... Including the process of EVIL in us as we SIN, to our conclusion in CHRIST...

He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our FAITH bro... which means He is the ALPHA and OMEGA of that Faith, which is CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF... by HIM -- to BEGIN with!

end of PART ONE...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

PART TWO: 

(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?

Quote from: pneuma on September 29, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
In that Christ died for the WORLD which is kosmos and incases everything He created, not just the earth.

ANGELS of GOD are NOT created beings... they have ALWAYS BEEN... Please name any reference in Scripture which speaks of their CREATION,

Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Seems to me ALL THINGS in heaven and earth both visible and invisible were created by HIM, for by Him do all things consists.

What a difference a WORD makes... all CREATED things bro... the "created" things IN HEAVEN are the EARTHLY, TIME BOUND, beings GOD called MEN, and placed upon the EARTH which by your own words noted that were NOT on the Earth to begin with... their FIRST ESTATE being an "elsewhere" (Gen 2:8) which was (is) in the HEAVENLY realm... the SONS of GOD, which each in turn, became MEN in ADAM, and are CONCLUDED ...SONS... IN CHRIST...

And which "SONS" are also KNOWN as the BODY and TEMPLE of GOD... which has ALWAYS BEEN...  According to you, GOD was "HOMELESS" and CHRIST was a HEAD without a "BODY", prior to the Creation of the Earth and TIME... Please! :rolleye:

You (IMO) continue to arrange words in a recipe which produces in part,  TRADITION which in turn, defeats the TRUTH ...and thereby keeps those who embrace it, within the CHAINS under DARKNESS... (Jude 6)

If the angelic have always been bro then not all things were created by Him. So you would have to show me a scripture that states not all things were made by Him to prove your point of the angelic always being.

Again... you fail to note where and when ANGELS were CREATED or had a BEGINNING, Scott...

GOD never, in any way changes... Neither does CHRIST... so we are left with the BODY and TEMPLE...  You believe that the INCORRUPT "HEAD" was "body-less" and in the HEAVENLY scenario, created Itself a BODY which is CORRUPT... then transformed that BODY into something INCORRUPT which is a deduction of CHANGE... rendering the Scriptures which state that YHVH and CHRIST do not VARY in any way, as incorrect or false...

I view this process differently than do you Scott... For example:  I see this as my HEAD having a knowledge of DRIVING... because my HEAD has read a BOOK on driving... but my BODY has not EXPERIENCED DRIVING, so it does NOT ...KNOW... HOW to DRIVE...

This is what has transpired between the HEAD (CHRIST) in the Heavenly places, and the BODY (sons)... the HEAD ...KNOWS... Good and Evil... the BODY has NOT yet EXPERIENCED what the HEAD KNOWS... the HEAD therefore CREATES a scenario in which the BODY might LEARN what the HEAD KNOWS... (am I going to fast?)

As with many of our interactions Scott... this one, most likely shall end in disagreement, and that is fine with me...  I do not post to convince you or anyone else, of anything... I post that which GOD has given me, and for my brothers and sisters to consider... KNOWING that there are places within those views that are yet to be completed, as CHRIST who AUTHORED my faith, ...continues to mold the clay (me)...

Therefore, CHRIST did not DIE for ANGELS, He died for CREATION... All living entities which have found DEATH, have done so because of the SIN which was brought upon CREATION by MAN... Not ANGELS...

Jesus blood was shed for ALL of His creation brother and scripture testifies to that effect time and time again.

And again I am found REPEATING myself to you... His blood was shed for CREATION, which means all things that were CREATED... not for those things which have ALWAYS BEEN, one of which are the HOLY ANGELS of GOD...

This is why there is an ABSENCE of notation in Scripture about the "CREATION" of ANGELS, and an equal ABSENCE of notation of SALVATION concerning ANGELIC beings.

I have given you scripture Willie, but you see the principalities and powers in heavenly places as being something to do with our carnal minds, and as I pointed out that CANNOT be the case for the carnal mind CANNOT be reconciled by the blood of Christ.

And the redundant merry-go-round makes yet another revolution... :rolleye:

But here are a few more that state the angelic were created by God.

Psalm 148:2-5
2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

The word translated "ANGEL" in this passage is MALAK Scott (H4397 strongs) which is translated almost as many times as MESSENGER in the OT... (this is done with aggelos - G32 in Greek -- in the NT as well)... and does not conclude that ANGELS spoken of here are of the HOLY ANGELIC compliment...

Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The word HOST here is TSABA (H6635-strongs) ...and means many persons amassed, or "soldiers awaiting a war"...  This is again TOTALLY applicable to MEN, for MEN are they which are in the battle... fighting the ADVERSITY within themselves (carnality) which gropes for the INNER MAN of CHRIST to be CONCLUSIVELY revealed within that struggle, and, GAINS the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil in the process... 

Nehemiah 9:6
6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

REPEATING again:

HOST = TSABA (H6635-strongs) again means persons amassed... or soldiers preparing for war... NOT ANGELS...

That they sin and are in need of salvation

Inconclusive... continuing to display GOD as NOT in control of His beings or His plan... having to "recreate" because of misbehaviors which did not find their origin in HIM, rather were self invented MYSTERIOUSLY ...by ANGELIC beings in the PERFECT and COMPLETE, ...HEAVENLY realm...

I see this as a platform to DOUBT that when MAN and/or/possibly ANGELS are reconciled to this PERFECT and COMPLETE realm... that the same process will not REPEAT somewhere along the line...

Instead I see THIS Earth and TIME as a PURPOSED classroom, in which the CHILDREN of GOD (which are His Body and Temple), are given the ONE THING they did not have... that being the (experiential) knowledge of GOOD and EVIL and thereby YHVH and HIS WORD, are found PERMEATING completely that BODY and TEMPLE as ALL in ALL...

Believe it if you wish Scott... I find it preposterous and a bit blasphemous to a degree... seeya at the end... NONE of us "KNOWS it ALL"...  :dontknow:

Job 4:18-19
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:  19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

Makes the distinction of the angelic and those who dwell in houses of clay (man)

This is the BEST verse presented, and argueably does the most to prove your point... However, there are problems with it...

Seems GOD "TRUSTS" no one if this verse is read as you believe it to be... WHO are the "SERVANTS" Scott?

He (1) doesnt "TRUST" His "servants", ...(2) charges His "angels" (malak) with "folly", and (3) demeans those in houses of clay as even less...

I find the "servants", the cog in the works here... You CAN make an arguement with Malak as ANGELIC beings, and that MAN are those in the "houses of clay"... but WHO are the "SERVANTS" that YHVH doesn't TRUST, Scott?

I believe them all to be one and the SAME... (1) The SERVANTS God doesn't "TRUST" are MEN... (2) the ANGELS (malak/messengers) charged with FOLLY are MEN... (3) those LESS in houses of "clay",  are MEN...

If GOD charged His MESSENGERS with FOLLY... it means that the message they brought was FALSE... What ANGEL is shown to bear this FALSE MESSAGE Scott?  Is it NOT MEN?

If ANGELS, then how can we be sure the message which ANGELS bore in the OT, or in the NT, was a TRUTHFUL one? 

Did GOD "make these ANGELS" capable of DISOBEDIENCE, and if so, did He not show RESPECT of PERSONS, by making "ANGELS" which did NOT disobey?  Somehow giving them MORE than the others?

If GOD misTRUSTED His SERVANTS... who might they be Scott?  I think it is MEN, who unfaithfully "SERVE"...

The context is speaking of MORTAL MAN... and as it follows these verses, concludes DEATH and that they are DESTROYED from morning to evening...

I will say this is the best verse you have presented thus far... but it does have problems, which I shall seek GOD in the time to come, to better answer than I have here...  :mblush:

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

This is BY FAR, the weakest of all the Scriptures you have presented to prove ANGELIC beings, SINNED...

What ANGEL (spirit being) has been cast into a GRAVE?  Please bro... you need more than these verses to establish IMPERFECTION occuring, in the PERFECT scenario of HEAVEN...

Personally, I see this type of teaching is as dangerous as ET... for it opens the door to believing that somehow, GOD,  is not able to handle His Created beings...

First, stating He blew it with the ANGELS (somewhere between Gen 1:1 & Gen 1:2), then came His MAN "project" and it failed as well...

And through all this, we are supposed to believe that He shall not have problems in an ETERNITY that has already shown (angels falling) to develop problems...

I don't buy it... I believe that GOD is IN CONTROL, and that NO HOLY ANGEL ever FELL, nor ever WILL... because... BECAUSE GOD is IN CONTROL... and KNOWS what He is DOING.  Not a "tinkering" Creator, that just can't seem to "get it right"... :mnah:

You will note if you keep reading that the order in 2Pet. Is in chronological order, the angelic sinned first then the days of Noah and then of Sodom and Gomorrah, seems to hint at what I said earlier about the angelic being the ones to cause the earth to become without form.

More REACHING, ...conjecture Scott... don't buy it... The OLD WORLD which preceeded Noah was that which he was SAVED FROM bro...

(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

Quote from: pneuma on September 29, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
But Willie the angelic do die, for the wages of sin is death and the second DEATH is prepared for the DEVIL and his ANGELS, thus a good reference to them also being sinners and paying the wages of sin.

Again Scott, this is evidence that you maintain a measure of traditional views... I do not demean you for it... I just contend that you are yet veiled concerning ANGELS of GOD...

What it comes down to, is that you view...

The "devil and HIS angels" as LITERAL "angelic beings"... and draw said reference from a book of SYMBOLISM, ...then promptly note LITERAL perspective concerning the SYMBOLS of the "devil and his angels", and the "2nd death"...

The truth (which you shall disagree with), is that the DEVIL is ADVERSITY in MAN... and "ITS" angels... are the HUMAN messengers which continue to bring their TRADITIONAL (Matt 15:6 / Mk 7:13) message of ADVERSITY to the WORLD... making the Word of GOD of NONE EFFECT... (Jude 6) -- Bound in CHAINS under DARKNESS (of that tradition) ...

Teaching that GOD shall TORMENT His creatures (and ANGELS) in an UNGODLY and UNFORGIVING way, or alternatively, ...that He shall just KILL them...

NO ANGELS of GOD, ...ever have or ever will... DIE!

Willie I have seen to much of the devil and his angels to believe they are the creation of mans mind, they have names, they have personalities and they are cast out by the word of God

What "NAMES" Scott?  What "PERSONALITIES"?  Be SPECIFIC!  Can you back up this statement?  With verses which note VARYING PERSONALITIES of devils, or note the VARIOUS NAMES they have?

you might think I am standing on tradition bro but I am going by what I have seen and no one can tell me that what I have seen is just my imagination of something I made up in my carnal mind.

Well that is not a new thing bro... ALL men are stubborn to a degree... and TRADITION is of the most ADDICTIVE things in existence... doesnt surprise me that you find it hard to let go...

What you would have me believe is that Jesus was talking to himself when he was tempted of the devil, which would mean Jesus had a carnal mind.

JESUS had to have a mind which could DISOBEY, otherwise, His whole thing was a sham... If there was NOT truly, FLESHLY temptation, then He was NOT tempted as are WE... Draw your own conclusions bro...

Scripture says that:  JESUS was a MAN (1 Tim 2:5)... ALL MEN are TEMPTED in the SAME WAY (James 1:14) ...Again bro, draw your own conclusions...

When you are tempted Scott (JESUS was TEMPTED in ALL POINTS ...AS... are we - Heb 4:15),   ...Does some "red guy" -- with a pitchfork come up to you and suggest to you such as: "Hey Scott, check out that hot chick" ????  Or is this temptation emerging from and OF, YOUR FLESH and IN your MIND?  ...needing no "red guy" or anyone else, ...to prompt you at all...  It is in the NATURE of FLESH to be TEMPTED... OF and BY, ITSELF...

And as that temptation awaits its answer, do you not WITHIN YOURSELF, ..."say" NO to it?  :dontknow:  Are you found thereby, ...TALKING to YOURSELF Scott?  :laughing7:

It was the depleted FLESH of CHRIST calling out to be SERVED... you dont see it... that's fine with me...  :cloud9:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW...  :cloud9:

This answer is for the most part, very cryptic to me:

Sorry bro,  :doh: ...I must have missed your question, I did not mean to ignore you!  :mblush:

And again you get upset about 'age' while I clearly stated that I just use it for ease of explanation...
I even said you should read "is"
But still you waste half of your post on it. It clarifies nothing. On the contrary it just makes the remaining answers harder to read. Or should I say harder to find :happy3:
Bad baaaaad doggy!  :laughing7:

I really do not understand this post at all???  :dontknow: 

First might I say, that I am NOT, and never have been "upset" with you...  :dontknow:

I made a sincere apology for missing your earlier question and you reply with a (even jokingly) reprimand of me?  :sigh:

I was just trying to note to you that as I see it, TIME is an IRRELVANT thing to GOD... therefore AGES do not apply to Him... nor does HISTORY (which marks time) find relevance concerning Him and Eternity.

You are more than welcome to disagree with these things as you will, I have no problem with it...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[pneuma]

willieH: Hi Scott! 

   Whoa!   ...I thought my answer was long!  I realize you had to refer, as will I, ...but I suggest you better grab a lunch bro!!!  ... 

This answer will be in TWO PARTS:

Hi Willie, your right I'll need a lunch and supper in order to answer your two posts.

hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to do so, just stopped by to let you know I seen your post.

[Molly]

What you would have me believe is that Jesus was talking to himself when he was tempted of the devil, which would mean Jesus had a carnal mind.

Good point.

The carnal mind is at enmity with God.


Main Entry: en·mi·ty
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'en-m&-te
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English enmite, from Middle French enemité, from Old French enemisté, from enemi enemy
: positive, active, and typically mutual hatred or ill will
synonyms ENMITY , HOSTILITY , ANTIPATHY , ANTAGONISM , ANIMOSITY , RANCOR , ANIMUSmean deep-seated dislike or ill will. ENMITY suggests positive hatred which may be open or concealed<an unspoken enmity>. HOSTILITY suggests an enmity showing itself in attacks or aggression <hostility between the two nations>. ANTIPATHY and ANTAGONISM imply a natural or logical basis for one's hatred or dislike, ANTIPATHY suggesting repugnance, a desire to avoid or reject, and ANTAGONISM suggesting a clash of temperaments leading readily to hostility <a natural antipathy for self-seekers> <antagonism between the brothers>. ANIMOSITY suggests intense ill will and vindictiveness that threaten to kindle hostility <animosity that led to revenge>. RANCOR is especially applied to bitter brooding over a wrong <rancor filled every line of his letters>. ANIMUS adds to animosity the implication of strong prejudice <objections devoid of personal animus>.



Doesn't sound like Jesus to me.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott! 

   Whoa!   ...I thought my answer was long!  I realize you had to refer, as will I, ...but I suggest you better grab a lunch bro!!!  ... 

This answer will be in TWO PARTS:

Hi Willie, your right I'll need a lunch and supper in order to answer your two posts.

hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to do so, just stopped by to let you know I seen your post.

Bon Appetite...  :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

What you would have me believe is that Jesus was talking to himself when he was tempted of the devil, which would mean Jesus had a carnal mind.

Good point.

The carnal mind is at enmity with God.


Main Entry: en·mi·ty
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'en-m&-te
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English enmite, from Middle French enemité, from Old French enemisté, from enemi enemy
: positive, active, and typically mutual hatred or ill will
synonyms ENMITY , HOSTILITY , ANTIPATHY , ANTAGONISM , ANIMOSITY , RANCOR , ANIMUSmean deep-seated dislike or ill will. ENMITY suggests positive hatred which may be open or concealed<an unspoken enmity>. HOSTILITY suggests an enmity showing itself in attacks or aggression <hostility between the two nations>. ANTIPATHY and ANTAGONISM imply a natural or logical basis for one's hatred or dislike, ANTIPATHY suggesting repugnance, a desire to avoid or reject, and ANTAGONISM suggesting a clash of temperaments leading readily to hostility <a natural antipathy for self-seekers> <antagonism between the brothers>. ANIMOSITY suggests intense ill will and vindictiveness that threaten to kindle hostility <animosity that led to revenge>. RANCOR is especially applied to bitter brooding over a wrong <rancor filled every line of his letters>. ANIMUS adds to animosity the implication of strong prejudice <objections devoid of personal animus>.



Doesn't sound like Jesus to me.

That is irrelevant... :mnah:

Concerning the NATURAL temptation of a MAN in FLESH...

JESUS met the CARNALITY of His flesh, with the SPIRITUAL MIND of GOD...  Always following the WILL of YHVH, as the ADVERSITY of the FLESH presented itself TO HIM... which is WHY He gained VICTORY over it...

The VICTORY of any MAN is also done in this fashion ONLY... for ONLY via submission to the WILL of GOD, can any MAN overcome SIN...

If this is not so, then JESUS was NOT TEMPTED ...AS... are ALL other men...  :dontknow:

IRREGARDLESS of what ANYONE ..."thinks"...   :hihat:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

There is only one time when we see Jesus struggling with the will of God versus his will, and that is in the garden where he is facing the most brutal kind of death.  Even there, he is never at enmity with God, only struggling to fulfill a very difficult task.  He asks for the cup to be taken from him, but then resolves the issue himself.

We never see Jesus at enmity with God the Father.   Never.


Satan, on the other hand, is at constant enmity with God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Jesus had desires.   He desired not to have to go through what he knew was going to happen.  He prayed (petitioned) the father according to his desires, but was willing to see through the will of the Father.

This is where people combine things in scripture when they should be separated to get a clearer picture of what is being told to us.

The flesh, is not necessarily carnal.   Jesus in the flesh did not hate God, he has desires according to what the flesh prefers.   This is not inherantly carnal.   Jesus was limited in knowledge,  this is not inherantly carnal.

Satan tempted Jesus and Jesus without the Hatred towards God could discern through the desires of flesh as an example that Satan is not all powerful and that the Love of the Father is seen.

The serpent is apart from Satan and apart from flesh.  The serpent corrupts the flesh.   Satan tempts the flesh and if given permission can control the flesh.   The flesh is not our decision making capabilities.  Satan cannot control it,  the serpent cannot control it, but it can corrupt that which it all filters through.

We often associate "flesh" with sin.  But Jesus was in the flesh, so it cannot be inherantly sin.   This is why I reject all this singular association with everything.  The contradictions just start piling up when that is done.

Of course we can compartmentalize by topic and seemingly avoid those contradictions as long as we stay within each compartment at any given moment they go unnoticed, this was the thing that was driving me crazy in church.  Sermons researched by topic always created some contradiction with a previous lesson.  But no one cared when I pointed it out.  They would just say, well, that verse has nothing to do with the topic or the word being talked about.  It was a half truth answer, certainly the topic didn't apply to another topic.  For example: ( Gods will) Gods will seemingly has nothing to do with what we can pray for.   TRUE!!!!  However, can we "GET" what we want apart from Gods will?

This is also why I agree with SoTW view on word studies, on the surface it looks great and creates interesting material for a lesson.   But if you pay attention the contradictions start piling up between topics when such a thing is done.

[Molly]

The flesh, is not necessarily carnal.   Jesus in the flesh did not hate God, he has desires according to what the flesh prefers.   This is not inherantly carnal.   Jesus was limited in knowledge,  this is not inherantly carnal.

Satan tempted Jesus and Jesus without the Hatred towards God could discern through the desires of flesh as an example that Satan is not all powerful and that the Love of the Father is seen.

This is interesting.  Jesus overcame any limitations of the flesh, up to and including the resurrection from the dead.

The key seems to be love in accordance with God's will.....?

But on the other thread you seem to think that all men have a beast within, yet you say the flesh is not inherently carnal.  So what then is this beast?  I do not necessarily agree with you on that--a lamb is not a 'beast' in the sense of being a monster.  Yet, beast is connotative with monster.   We are sheep.

Can you talk some more about the difference you see among satan, serpent, and flesh?