The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Craig]

With most of what Taffy post, I am also in agreement, some parts I am not.

I submit Taffy made an issue of contention where there is none, when he made the points of agreement clumped into the points of disagreement creating a straw man which stated I disagreed about everything he presented and thus resulting in a spin out of the discussion. It is of my opinion Taffy rejected the details of how, what, where and why and just is satisfied that it is, which in itself is not wrong; except, whether he knew it or not, the how, what, where and why was what this discussion was about.

Unable to reconcile the contradictions of his explanation I presented or the mutual misunderstandings of each other's position, this resulted in another side issue which usually comes up between Taffy and myself.

Perhaps it reply is pointless, because the ones whom it is intended don't read it or understand what I just said anyways.

[martincisneros]

As far as I'm concerned, where the tongues are being confused, God is at work.  And where guests to the forum are each hearing the wonderful works of God in their own languages, as they read these threads, then that's God at work as well.

[Taffy]

Just wanted to say amen bro, (we do see this much alike) before bowing out of this thread.

God bless

Along with a few others who see a like Scott.....
Blessings Bro :icon_flower:
Taffy

[rosered]

 
Great mods!
  taff and Martin
I am a lurker  more these days 
and get much from the Heat /Winds  and tongues of Fire   :laughing7:

  I have noted that alot of  great things comes "shining through"   and
is ministering ,  before I saw them as fruitless ,a poor perception really ,
   I was  sooo wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!  I had the wrong Ideas of  blessed is the peacemakers they shall be called the children of God , it has its Place 
as all things do  in time ...
the End is peace in  Christ , I know this now 
but the firey  trials , are not such a strange thing to me now ...


And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.  

br 1:7  And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.  

  Just read  Psalms 104  and now i get it    hee hee ...

no worries  Nate and Craig

  Paul was given  many of revelations in Christ  , but they were NOT  without 
buffeting


Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Buffet

1  Strong's Number: 2852 Greek: kolaphizo
signifies "to strike with clenched hands, to buffet with the fist" (kolaphos, "a fist"), Mat 26:67; Mar 14:65; 1Cr 4:11; 2Cr 12:7; 1Pe 2:20. 2  Strong's Number: 5299 Greek: hupopiazo
lit., "to strike under the eye" (from hupopion, "the part of the face below the eye;" hupo, "under," ops, "an eye"), hence, to beat the face black and blue (to give a black eye), is used metaphorically, and translated "buffet" in 1Cr 9:27 (AV, "keep under"), of Paul's suppressive treatment of his body, in order to keep himself spiritually fit (RV marg., "bruise"); so RV marg. in Luk 18:5, of the persistent widow, text, "wear out" (AV, "weary"). See KEEP, WEAR, WEARY.



  just remember we love you both  and

  the Lord JESUS  chastens and rebukes whom he loves  :icon_king:  .... rose

[CHB]

Rose,

You said exactly what I was thinking. I see God's hand in all things
including disagreements. I learn even from them sometimes. I do more reading here than I do posting. I don't learn a lot from posting, unless I am asking the questions.

:happy3: :cloud9:
CHB

[rosered]

Rose,

You said exactly what I was thinking. I see God's hand in all things
including disagreements. I learn even from them sometimes. I do more reading here than I do posting. I don't learn a lot from posting, unless I am asking the questions.

:happy3: :cloud9:
CHB

  Bless your heart sis ,  I see God's hand in all things
me too , I learn more being quiet 
  and so  read    both/many  points  taken 
   I dont always ''see'' clearly though .... hee hee 
love yas sista thanks for the confirmation  ... rr 

[willieH]

willieH: Greetinz! :hithere:

Subjects:   :swordfight:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 
(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"? 
(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?
(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

We read in Genesis, that GOD placed a tree in the midst of the Garden.  And notified of its location, and commanded it be avoided.  Had there been no such tree... would Adam & Eve still SINNED?

THIS is basically the proposal of FALLEN ANGELS...  That even though no "TREE" was placed in their proximity, and though no NOTIFICATION of LOCATION of that "tree" was made, and NO COMMAND made to AVOID it... Innumerable ANGELS (not just 2 as with humans) still, ...somehow found a way to "FALL" to SIN... anyway... :rolleye:


thoughts?   :JCThink:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi-de-hi... Hi-de-ho... :hithere:

Here are some of my prior views:

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

(1)  NO!  There is no ORIGIN noted for ANGELS... and ALL they have and ARE, come from GOD (Rom 13:1)  GOD provided ALL they have and are, along with prior knowledge of ALL they would DO...

(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"?

(2)  Please provide Biblical evidence that any being (angelic or otherwise) in the DOMAIN of GOD, ever rebelled or sinned, ...and where it is stated  that GOD set upon this earth, those literally innumerable DEMONIC ANGELS (which "fell") as our opposers on this earth. (having left their "1st estate")

(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?

(3)  CHRIST took away the SIN of the WORLD (John 1:29), ...nothing is said of Him taking away SIN which is asserted by some, to have taken place IN HEAVEN... :mnah:

(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

(4)  ANGELS do not DIE, because they never SINNED, neither do they need reconciliation... 

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?
I'm not even sure Heaven always existed? Perhaps God created it at some point in time.
I guess that last because if we always have been in Heaven and Heaven always existed we are as old as God Himself...
Anyway God is in Heaven now and every baby born has part of Gods 'breath of life'
So in that way you can say we where in Heaven.
But was there also a indivdual Willie walking around there?

[WhiteWings]

We read in Genesis, that GOD placed a tree in the midst of the Garden.  And notified of its location, and commanded it be avoided.  Had there been no such tree... would Adam & Eve still SINNED?

a] The fact that they didn't avoid tree means they has a sinful nature before they even knew about the tree.
b] Everything God does has a reason. So planting that tree also has a reason. If it was not planted the plans of God would be different than now I guess.
c] Even before Adam and Eve where created God knew they would sin by eating from the tree. Still God choose to plant the tree. That must had have a good reason.
d] God also could have choosen to create a Adam and Eve that are as resistant to Sin as Father and Son.
e] God also could have choosen to allow eating from that tree.

So all-in-all I think all went according to plan.
And if the tree wasn't planted.... well I can think of a billion if questions but only that one choice by God is relavant.

[rosered]

 Hi willie and WW ,

 what of these ?

Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:(1) error from an unused noun (apparently from H1984) meaning bluster/sin error , go astray
How much less [in] them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation [is] in the dust, [which] are crushed before the moth?They are destroyed from morning to evening:

they perish for ever without any regarding [it].

Doth not their excellency [which is] in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.

   1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ/ Annointed  the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 I am not disputing you , just   wanting to know what you make of this ?
 thanks ..rose  

[rosered]

I'm not even sure Heaven always existed? Perhaps God created it at some point in time.

  the Promise is a New heaven and earth the old is  fading/passing  away
  Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:


Isa 50:9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who [is] he [that] shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.



Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

 
just a few verses about this work of God though Jesus Christ 

  I want to know just what the MOTH is ? hummmm... peace rose

[martincisneros]

It comes down to how you interpret principalities and powers in the heavenlies in Colossians 1, Ephesians 3, and in 1Peter 3.  It also partially depends on how you interpret exorcisms, because if these are literally animalistic spiritual parasites of some type then obviously their ultimate fate comes into question, where they went when they were cast into the pigs by Christ when He introduced the world to deviled ham, etc.  That they were cast into literal pigs that committed suicide keeps me from thinking that these were just harmed elements of the human psyche based upon wrong paradigms and alienation from God.  To me this alienation is personified if it can be cast into animals rather than to the dry place to seek for rest and find none, according to Jesus elsewhere.  I've personally seen these creatures and not just their effects.  Church history is littered with others with similar experiences to mine.  Here's a useful link with an anecdote and a very brief extract from Andrew Jukes on the subject:  http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com/Jukes.html

Again, it comes down to what you do with exorcisms, references to principalities and powers, references to the devil and to Satan in both Testaments, and the reference to the Creation entering into the liberties of the Children of God, some of these creatures being mentioned for us in the last two verses of Romans 8.  Some people think that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are important to this subject, but I personally don't. 

Jude and 2Peter refer to the disrobing of angelic beings to participate in sin, so whatever this disrobing means, whether a transformation into a bodily form or a putting off of what they were created to be, I'm not going to dogmatize about.  1Corinthians 15 says that we'll "put on" immortality and incorruption, so perhaps immortality and incorruption is some type of ethereal garment.  1Corinthians 15:39-40 refers to celestial bodies and contrasts them with terrestrial bodies in the context where he's describing the different types of flesh that there will be in the various resurrections.  I'm personally not the least bit satisfied with any of the alternative interpretations that I've heard on Revelation 12, so perhaps that third of the stars that were swept down to the earth or to the natural realm or to the carnal mental realm were angelic.

The author of the webpage that I've given a link to above, evidently, didn't know how to transliterate the Greek from Jukes's book.  Basically, you can fill in the blanks with this info:

It is not generally known that an older reading is, "that He should taste death for all excepting God"; "choris Theou" instead of "chariti Theou."

"chariti Theou" is the Greek in that passage in Hebrews that gets into all of our translations these days, but Origen and quite a few others of the early Church Fathers quote the passage in Hebrews [a little differently] as "choris Theou," which changes the passage in Hebrews 2 to more closely follow St. Paul's writing with a reading that He should taste death for all, "except for God."

So, for those of you with a copy of Jukes's book "Restitution of all things," you can pencil in the above info either above the text or in the margin with an arrow to the appropriate places in the blanks given by the above link.  Elhanan Winchester, in the late 1700s, refers to the same EARLIER reading in Hebrews in his book "The Universal Restoration" towards the end of the first Dialogue.  It's a handy point when you're dealing with people who want to argue against a complete restoration of all of the Creation through Jesus Christ.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

I'm not even sure Heaven always existed?

No way to prove that to you bro... you either KNOW it, or you do not...

Perhaps God created it at some point in time.

He never "created" it, ...it has always been... or better worded, ALWAYS IS.

I guess that last because if we always have been in Heaven and Heaven always existed we are as old as God Himself...

GOD, dear friend is not OLD or YOUNG... He is EVERLASTING... OUTSIDE the limitations and boundaries which TIME represents... and which FINITE boundaries denote AGE and YOUTH...

Anyway God is in Heaven now and every baby born has part of Gods 'breath of life'
So in that way you can say we where in Heaven.

You are on the right track here... That the BREATH of GOD is in each man, notes a PORTION of Himself to be present in each man... which is that which gives us LIFE.

I personally believe that portion which animates US in this Physical realm as individuals (living men), is actually the portion of the the BODY of CHRIST that we (SONS) are of the SPIRIT in the Heavenly realm... which is WHY each returns to GOD... YHVH is NEVER without ANY PORTION of HIMSELF...

But was there also a indivdual Willie walking around there?

"willieH" is a MAN bro... a temporal member of the FINITE human race...

The SON of GOD (part) of which "willieH" (*and WW & all others) is numbered, is named, CHRIST... No individual named "willieH", just a part of the WHOLE "body" of the SON of GOD... JESUS CHRIST...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rose... :hithere:

Hi willie and WW ,

 what of these ?

Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:(1) error from an unused noun (apparently from H1984) meaning bluster/sin error , go astray
How much less [in] them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation [is] in the dust, [which] are crushed before the moth?They are destroyed from morning to evening:

they perish for ever without any regarding [it].

Doth not their excellency [which is] in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.

   1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ/ Annointed  the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 I am not disputing you , just   wanting to know what you make of this ?
 thanks ..rose  

ALL have sinned (lacked wisdom) and come short of the Glory of GOD... (Rom 3:23)...

Though men are given wisdom in part, they continue to battle the portion of themselves [flesh] which continues to wax UNWISE Rose... (Rom 7:23)

As I wrote this, I turned in my Bible to the EXACT PAGE upon which this verse rested (this happens daily)... thank you Father for your guidance...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: :hithere:

I will be leaving in the morning for a week long trip... so if any reply to this thread, I am not ignoring it, just will not access the board for a time...

Enjoy the discussion while I'm gone!  :bgdance:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[rosered]

  Hi Willie ,
Yes, all Lack Wisdom  :laughing7: praying for more of Him
   Have a wonderful week , will be missing you bro !
  Peace Rose

[pneuma]

Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:(1) error from an unused noun (apparently from H1984) meaning bluster/sin error , go astray
How much less [in] them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation [is] in the dust, [which] are crushed before the moth?They are destroyed from morning to evening:

Great scriptures Rose, and they show a difference between the angelic and those who dwell in houses of clay (man)

[pneuma]

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

The angels that kept not thier first estate scripture comes to mind and of course the book of Enoch speaks of them falling but will not use it as reference because you already said it won't count to you.

(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"?

They either fell before the recreation of the world or after, not sure myself, but God did not make the earth void, yet in Gen.1:1 it says the earth was(which is also translated BECAME) void.

(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?

In that Christ died for the WORLD which is kosmos and incases everything He created, not just the earth.

(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

But Willie the angelic do die, for the wages of sin is death and the second DEATH is prepared for the DEVIL and his ANGELS, thus a good reference to them also being sinners and paying the wages of sin.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The application of the "fall" creates more contradictions which means the scriptures used to say angels can rebel in heaven are not understood properly.

Satan was a murderer from the beginning.   

Beginning of what?

This raises the possibility that murderers reside in heaven.    If there is no possibility of a murder residing in heaven, then you have to reconcile how and when this rebellion came about that did not start in the heart of an angel while in heaven. 

The mormon bible contains a description of this fall, oh such sadness in heaven it says existed.  Really????  Wow, sadness in heaven?   And so, this heaven will be a much better place than earth?  Heck in heaven I guess God didn't weed out the riff raff after all.   

So between the mormon doctrine and the book of enoch,  the contradiction here should be able to be resolved.

[Molly]

I think it would be possible for sadness in heaven, given it is possible for joy.  I always think of the great cloud of witnesses we have, as mentioned by Paul,  and I do think they grieve over us as well as jump for joy over us.  Well, that's just me--I never feel 'alone.'




Isaiah 49:13
Shout for joy, O heavens; rejoice, O earth; burst into song, O mountains! For the LORD comforts his people and will have compassion on his afflicted ones.


Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.


As to the angels falling, well--let's just say they were thrown out....


Rev 12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Interesting, this war in revelation has already taken place?

[Molly]

Interesting, this war in revelation has already taken place?

How far out on the limb should I go?  I suppose since Willie is on vacation, I could take the chance.

Michael and his angels are fighting the war against the devil and his angels.  Jesus says,-- past tense,-- I saw satan fall from heaven like lightning.  This is when the disciples come to him and announce they are now able to trample serpents and scorpions underfoot.

So who is fighting the battle here?  We are!  The body of Christ is fighting the battle.  Satan is thrown out of heaven, and now he must be put under our feet.


Luke 20:43
Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


"Michael"

H4317
מיכאל
mîykâ'êl
me-kaw-ale'
From H4310 and (the prefixed derivation from) H3588 and H410; who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: - Michael.



Romans 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Why ask me how far out on a limb to go? 

Which heaven?  Genesis depicts a plural.

See, when this issue gets talked about there is always heaven in the singular, in every church I have ever been in it has been heaven in the singular.   But there is heavens created in the scriptural nature of things.  Thats why this standard stuff of fallen angels from heaven is very scripturally weak in its general form. 

So, there is more to it and we must determine if angels actually fell  or if a spiritual realm was intended to be created with Satan and his messengers made  precisely for the purpose of what Scripture talks about (sifting us as grain).

The relative vs the absolute must also be seen.  The bible depicts things so that as infants we are introduced to the concept then grow to see the absolute of things.

Such as the supposed contradiction where the bible tells us to seek, but God says no one is seeking.  We believe "we" are seeking but John 6:44 is the absolute nature of how it is.

Lets work a bit to see the plural nature of heaven and let religion have their folly.


Ever wonder if that battle takes place in our spirit as we ascend?   So is the sadness in heaven where the angels reside, or where we reside now?   

Is there heaven on earth?

Something to think about.   

[rosered]

2Cr 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

  what of the 3 part ?