What would you guys do if the Bible did really contain the concept of ET?

[Nathan]

Is it a fair question to even ask?  Both sides are adamant about their stance on the topic, meaning both already believe the Bible is affirming their understanding . .but in this instance . . .someone is inaccurate in their conclusion.  One has a hell that is eternal damnation, the other has life for every man.

I remember when I was in the ET belief and I even said to others "if you can live a worldly life and still go to heaven . .that isn't fair to all of those who chose to live godly lives.  If heaven is full of the cheaters, I want a second opinion."


My thinking was totally selfish.  I didn't "want" ungodly people to experience this same grace that has redeemed me.  I claim to live by grace, but I believed a lie . .I didn't live by grace, I chose grace for myself, and eternal damnation for those that I judged to have missed their chance at life.  How much God has grown since those days.  The more I understand Him, the bigger he gets.  The perimeters of his grace are just unimaginable.  I love that!!

Bottom line to the original question, we walk by faith in knowing that just as all who were born of the first Adam were born into the fallen nature, even moreso, are those redeemed by the second Adam because of his regenerating nature of resurrection and life.  My mind can not deter what's already been done.  All it does is, activate what's been done to manifest in my now.  And that is saying a plenty!!

[ChuckK3]

Personally, I would question God's character in the event that ET was absolutely true and biblically supported.

If God were one to do the ultimate evil, then He would also be guilty of other atrocities, like child molestation, rape, tyranny, and the list goes on and on.

I would futher demand to know why He even made me, if that were true at all.

I would defintely think the concept of "The Love of God" would be an outright lie, and that God and Satan were one and the same.

But thankfully, the ET concept was invented by men who want to do nothing but dominate and control people.  I'm sure they will answer as to why they associate God with their sick beliefs.

Chuck

[Nathan]

Or . . .will they come to know the same grace as we have?

[Taffy]

Chuck

you will find that No where In scripture ,that UNDERSTANDING UR is a Pre-requisite to being BEING saved...

Im sure you Know the scrips in Eph...by Grace, faith.....

If ya do find something to the contrary...pray inform me Bro :icon_flower:

Blessed are those INDEED, :icon_flower: who come to see Salvation FOR ALL.  :icon_flower:

Taffy

[Michele]

It just sounds to me like Chuck is upset with those who have the mind of the "Pharisee" also know by Jesus as "brood of Vipers or white-washed tombs"......the one thing Jesus seems to hate the most.....if there ever was something Jesus hates...that was it -- the cowardly yet prideful hypocrite.  This mindset most certainly is one of death and of the spiritual blind, but there is hope for even these although it may appear that Satan has removed all Light within them.

[Nathan]

The Phariseedic nature that I see most frustrating is the one that stands at the gate of truth, he himself won't enter in as it conflicts with everything he's convinced himself to understand, and yet he  goes out of his way to deter others from entering in as well.

[sparrow]

Let's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.

(A) Continue to believe in the Bible

(B) Reject the Bible

Reject.

[Sarah]

Let's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.

(A) Continue to believe in the Bible

(B) Reject the Bible

To me this question sounds like this...

Let's pretend that their wasn't a case for a God loving in the Bible,

would you still....?

(A) Continue to believe in the Bible

(B) Reject the Bible


If I had to answer this hypothetical question then my choice would be B.  If someone answered A, then either their god is the bible, or they truly believe it out of fear and not choice.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Let's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.

(A) Continue to believe in the Bible

(B) Reject the Bible

To me this question sounds like this...

Let's pretend that their wasn't a case for a God loving in the Bible,

would you still....?

(A) Continue to believe in the Bible

(B) Reject the Bible


If I had to answer this hypothetical question then my choice would be B.  If someone answered A, then either their god is the bible, or they truly believe it out of fear and not choice.

Hypothetically I stick with the answer I gave.   Realistically,  if the bible contained the ET message and the bible was truly the inspired word of God, then believing or not believing would not change a thing.

We might reject the bible, and therefore condemn ourselves to punishment forever.


Furthermore, just nitpicking the whole idea of it all now.  :laughing7:   

Which ET message would the bible truly contain?  Real torment in real flames where our flesh and nerves would continually regenerate so that we would not be burnt up and continue to feel the pain.   

Or would there be various levels of torment depending upon how bad we was?  Would there be the first class section for the "Good" people of the world and the coach seats with the most horrible searing torment for a nazi gaurd who abused and killed prisoners, and fueled the ovens.

Maybe it's just the Deep Sorrow view,  that one might make it even easier to reject the bible, doesn't sound all that bad.

[Nathan]

It feels like some of this creates unnecessary arguments when dealing with something that doesn't exist . .to us anyway.  Obviously ET people feel that the Bible does indeed affirm thier point of view on this.  It's odd how we can have the exact same Word, the exact same translation, and yet be at totally different ends when it comes to what the translation is saying.

May the light shining in and through us continue to be "The" Light from the Father of lights rather than a light cultivated by our natural reasoning.

[Sarah]

Realistically,  if the bible contained the ET message and the bible was truly the inspired word of God, then believing or not believing would not change a thing.

We might reject the bible, and therefore condemn ourselves to punishment forever.

Yes, the original question does leave some to the imagination when considering a response. If it is an absolute that the bible is true and eternal torment is true, well then either (A), I'm choosing to manipulate myself and God so I can get a ticket into heaven along with those I love, or (B) realizing the absurdity of it and giving the finger to God until the afterlife. In that light, in my heart I may be doing B, but acting out A.

But if the bible taught eternal torment in certainty, I would reject it's validity. The very idea of it isn't even natural, nor does it line up with my experiences with God. I suppose I would have to choose that any of God's past dealings in the bible with me were just His mercy meeting me where I was.

[Michele]

The Phariseedic nature that I see most frustrating is the one that stands at the gate of truth, he himself won't enter in as it conflicts with everything he's convinced himself to understand, and yet he  goes out of his way to deter others from entering in as well.

Yeah.....I agree Nathan.

[ChuckK3]

Chuck

you will find that No where In scripture ,that UNDERSTANDING UR is a Pre-requisite to being BEING saved...

Taffy,

    People like US will have to answer even though we understand UR.  Besides, I never said that they had to understand UR as a pre-requisite for salvation, only that they would have to answer as to why they employed terrorizing doctrine in the name of God.

     I'm sure nobody is going to get off willy-nilly just because everyone will eventually be saved.  Besides, we are going to be judged according to our own standards of judgement in a manner of speaking. (A person who believes in ET will at least get the impression that this is what's going to happen to him, even though he will eventually get relief from it.  Even Jesus used a little psychology on the Pharisees, using their own ideologies against them.  Kinda like giving them a taste of their own medicine.)

Chuck

[Akira Takahashi]

I'm still not 100% convinced that all will be saved just yet.  Needless to say, this means that I can accurately tell you how I react to ET.  Well, I'm depressed.  And angry.  And I feel like I'm dying spiritually.  Enough said?

This kind of reminds me of when I was reading up on what the Bible had to say about animal souls.  One guy, without any Biblical support, had the gall to say that because animals weren't shaped from the earth, their souls must logically be of a lesser quality.  While they eat, feel, etc. their souls don't live on.  Needless to say, I disagreed.  The response?  "We do know that God is just and that when we get to Heaven we will find ourselves in complete agreement with His decision on this issue, whatever it may be."

This is the answer I got most when I would ask about my loved ones who were supposedly in Hell.  In the end, people act as though it doesn't matter, even if we must be decieved into happiness in the end.  It's that kind of response that burdens my soul, plagues my mind with uholy thoughts and feelings, and drives me to what I can only describe as utter madness.

[martincisneros]

I've been aware of this thread since it started, but I really wanted to think through my answer 'cause I only vaguely remember that I used to believe ET because my mind has been so renewed to the truth of the Scriptures since I first saw UR with the first steps of clarity in 2001.  I was a Word of Faith minister for 9 years prior to seeing UR.  I suppose I'd still be doing what I had been doing up until that time with just focusing on the rights, priveleges, and responsibilities of the firstborn of redemption where Christ-derived wisdom, peace, love, faith, health, protection, and riches in all areas of life are concerned with the end-goal in mind of being blessed in order to be a blessing to all of the families of the earth. 

The Abrahamic Covenant never was a missing part of the equation for me and for those that have taught like I have along those lines.  It's just whether or not it'll ultimately completely restore absolutely all of humanity to God permanently that was the part that was veiled to me and to others who teach along those lines because of the pesky "forevers" in the KJV and other equally as rushed, presumptuous translations/paraphrases that are used by the mainstream. 

The message of UR is genuinely in the Scriptures.  And so is the blindness to it among Christians that think that they're standing firm in absolute truths.  UR is unquestionably mainstream by the 2020s, on Christian television, in Word Churches, and elsewhere.  I have total, completely assurance of that.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Martin,

You got me thinking about when that was my way of belief and I am not saying everyone is like me of course, but I really thought through the way I used to discuss the topic.

I then realized that while I was believing in ET I did one of two things primarily.

I parroted the explanations I was told and when I would study i would study within the acceptable material that I was told was accepted by Christians.


As I look back, I can see where God started to move me apart from that.   It when I started taking my arguments to the online world.   I started this before there was really an internet.  Anyone remember local BBS's that you would call with your dial up modem?

I realized that up until that point, primarily I was sheltered from other points of view,  sure amongst Christians there was debate like there is here,  but no one argued about the more important issue and that was eternal punishment.   

It was as automatic an assumption as Jesus being a Savior was.   So no one ever questioned it within the circles I was in.   Out in the world, even though there are unbelievers, primarily the unbelievers argue about the judgmentalism of Christians saying they are going to burn forever for being who they are.

I think when the light bulb turned on that i was just a parrot was from the last church I was in and through an exchange with the worship leader there.

It was a fight within my own spirit mostly,  I said some things I regret through that dialog, but in the end I realized that I was being judged through not measuring up and perceicved failure and this was displeasing to God.  I rejected that I failed just because I did not measure up to the leadership goals of the church and it was then I threw off the gloves and dug deep into scripture, searching out how to analyze the greek and hebrew.

It was then I discovered the meaning to "seek and ye shall find"  It was also then I discovered the meaning to (proverbs 16:9).  When I was drawn deep in my heart to know what God really thought of me, he showed me.   I really did not expect to see Hell not being eternal,   I had a mission to prove someone that got under my skin wrong.

In the end,  I discovered the parts this worship leader was right about, along with the incorrect application of judgement on me and discovered one of the greatest messages I had ever seen.

So in the end,  I am thankful for my trip through religion as it probably was necessary for me to learn what I learned and caused a thirst that has yet to be quenched.

[Akira Takahashi]

The message of UR is genuinely in the Scriptures.  And so is the blindness to it among Christians that think that they're standing firm in absolute truths.  UR is unquestionably mainstream by the 2020s, on Christian television, in Word Churches, and elsewhere.  I have total, completely assurance of that.

I UR really becoming that mainstream?  It's taboo in my community yet!

[jabcat]

Is textual criticism allowed?

[Paul Hazelwood]

The question isn't silly at all.  I don't believe the Bible is needed when the Holy Spirit of God is an active agent in this world.  Perhaps the Bible would be needed to to know that such a person exists, but the facts, or everything contained in the man compiled 66 books wouldn't need to be entirely 100% accurate.  I mean, it isn't 100% accurate anyway due translation.  Again, I have made this point before - it does nothing to believe it is 100% the Word of God in greek if you can't translate it 100% in another language.  It is just a gymnastic type set of hoops that Christian's jump through in order to admit that there are errors in the Bible while at the same time saying it is the 100% Word of God. That is the silly part... It is just one huge mind game for many Christian's.  Then there are those who believe the KJV 1611 is word for word the Word of God...  I tell you, people want a map (Bible) because they are scared to trust in Christ to be their map.

Hi Gabe,

Your issue with the bible is irrevalent to the work of the holy spirit.

[jabcat]

Hi Gabe,

Your issue with the bible is irrevalent to the work of the holy spirit.

Good point Paul.   I doubt few if any here are KJV-only, or even believe that we have any 100% accurate translations.  [self-edited, could have been more gentle] My apologies, James.

[martincisneros]

Is textual criticism allowed?

No, Jabcat, stoning the Bible on Tentmaker isn't allowed.

[Gabe Grinstead]

I am sorry that you feel I am stoning the Bible by making my position clear.  I don't play the game anymore.  I believe in Christ, have doubts that the 66 books compiled are correct and translated properly. I don't consider that an attack on anyone, at least not anymore than the two posts that attacked me after my response. If someone wants to come out and saying something, just say it.

BTW - If you guys delete my post, but leave it quoted and allow another to reply what purpose does it serve? Seems silly if you ask me.  So if you are censoring this forum from anyone who deviates from your viewpoint, at least be consistant with it - please.

[martincisneros]

The Bible isn't what's adulterated anyone's relationship with Lord Jesus and our heavenly Father.  It's been the traditions of men that have made the Word of God of none effect, going so far as to even mess with printings of the Bible.  But the Bible isn't difficult to translate in any important doctrinal matter.  It has some enigmatic passages.  No one here disputes that, though they might word it differently.  But over 90% of the doctrines of any Church aren't based upon the riddles in the Bible.  It's all of the nonsense about Christ having come to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved. It's all of this crap about Him being there for people every time but the last time, or in the end He's only as faithful as you were that has people on medication or becoming deists, agnostics, and atheists.  It's not the riddles in the Bible that have people questioning His Lordship, where we're heading, why there's suffering in the world, etc. It's all of the confusion in Churches that our free will was given to us to eternally damn our souls rather than as a tool for our instruction, for our relating to one another, and for our learning what not to do.  That's the traditions of men rather than the Scriptures.  The Scriptures teach us as we're able to bare it.  They take us as far as we're ready to go and no further.  The Scriptures are complete when it comes to what God has provided for making us wise unto salvation through Jesus Christ.  It's not a matter of trying the Scriptures and finding them in error, it's a matter of the Scriptures trying us and finding us in error.  It's not that the Book doesn't work, it's that so often we don't.  I don't mean that as an attack.  Jesus Himself sticks by the Book.  He didn't launch His attack against the devil with His baptism with the Holy Spirit, with His sinless life, or with His preexistence or whatever.  "It is written" got Him through then just the same as it'll get us through today.  Otherwise, life 7 sons of sceva's us!

[Gabe Grinstead]

The Bible isn't what's adulterated anyone's relationship with Lord Jesus and our heavenly Father.  It's been the traditions of men that have made the Word of God of none effect, going so far as to even mess with printings of the Bible.  But the Bible isn't difficult to translate in any important doctrinal matter.  It has some enigmatic passages.  No one here disputes that, though they might word it differently.  But over 90% of the doctrines of any Church aren't based upon the riddles in the Bible.  It's all of the nonsense about Christ having come to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved. It's all of this crap about Him being there for people every time but the last time, or in the end He's only as faithful as you were that has people on medication or becoming deists, agnostics, and atheists.  It's not the riddles in the Bible that have people questioning His Lordship, where we're heading, why there's suffering in the world, etc. It's all of the confusion in Churches that our free will was given to us to eternally damn our souls rather than as a tool for our instruction, for our relating to one another, and for our learning what not to do.  That's the traditions of men rather than the Scriptures.  The Scriptures teach us as we're able to bare it.  They take us as far as we're ready to go and no further.  The Scriptures are complete when it comes to what God has provided for making us wise unto salvation through Jesus Christ.  It's not a matter of trying the Scriptures and finding them in error, it's a matter of the Scriptures trying us and finding us in error.  It's not that the Book doesn't work, it's that so often we don't.  I don't mean that as an attack.  Jesus Himself sticks by the Book.  He didn't launch His attack against the devil with His baptism with the Holy Spirit, with His sinless life, or with His preexistence or whatever.  "It is written" got Him through then just the same as it'll get us through today.  Otherwise, life 7 sons of sceva's us!

I can't say I really dissagree with your assessment, but that is your just perspective. However, I am totally lost here as we were just told not to debate these issues and here you are giving a rebuttal.  I don't consider this fair and consistant moderation.  IMO, I believe you should delete all posts regarding this, every last one of them in this thread, (including, Jab, Paul's and yous, as well as mine) and I will part ways.  Otherwise, put my post back please and allow me to discuss and clarify further.

[Gabe Grinstead]

Hi Gabe,

Your issue with the bible is irrevalent to the work of the holy spirit.

Good point Paul.  This is old stuff from the Bible trashing days here, filled with supposition and IMO, inaccuracies...including, that I doubt few if any here are KJV-only, or even believe that we have any 100% accurate translations.  Even the pretext of the suppositions are off point and inaccurate, but that's bothing new, just not recent.  James.

A few things here

1) Nowhere did I say anyone here believes that the King James 1611 AV version was the Word of God.

2) This isn't old stuff from the Bible trashing days because I don't trash the Bible.  I have doubts, legitimate doubts that many, including the past Administrator at tenkmaker would also share.

3) I find it ironic that you state no one here believes that we have 100% accurate translations, yet that is essentially the same thing you use to accuse me of stoning the Bible.

The subject in and of itself is hypothetical in the first place.  Since the Bible doesn't go against UR (At least, most in this thread have stated this) then it is a moot point anyway. So the hypothetical answer to the question would be the reject the Bible, in my viewpoint.  Luckily, I do not have to outright reject the Bible, but that sure doesn't mean I consider it to be 100% perfect, without error.  I have doubts on the authenticity, not of the individual books, but of the ones chosen for the 'compiled' book, since I have read many different canons before the official canon.

Edit ** Also, as I was posted in the prayer section, I realized that my tone over typing may not be what I desire.  This is due to the irritation of my inflamed prostate. So please excuse any type of negative tone that you may detect in posts. I do not desire conflict, and I regard you all as my friends and fellow brothers and sisters.  Please keep in mind, while I hold different views, I respect each and everyone one of you. Thankyou - Gabe