Let's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.
(A) Continue to believe in the Bible
(B) Reject the Bible
I addressed this in another thread. I will always believe in God, I am convinced at this point that the bible is the word of God. If I truly believe that ET is Gods plan then I will ask him to allow me to be with the lost as I have helped some of them get there and if there is no hope for someone that I helped attain that position, then I will not enter heaven.
If ET is true under the assumption that God has predestined who will be in either place, then it isn't going to matter what I pretend to believe. God doesn't sell fire insurance.
Quote from: Paul on August 27, 2008, 06:17:12 PM
Let's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.
(A) Continue to believe in the Bible
(B) Reject the Bible
As one who from the off never believed in ET, even in those early days when everything was new to me, therefore these questions are not applicable.
A God of Love who burns 90%+ of his creation just never made sence, therefore ,who ever preached it ,I never even considered it..Tis true... :icon_flower:
In my personal life, the way I see it, it shouldn't matter whether it's in the Bible or not . .. I would continue to let Christ live in me. Whether Saddam is there or not is really of no consequence to me. I believe if he isn't yet, he will be in the end. . .but whether or not the Bible supported it . . .I would continue pursuing Christ. Hopefully, it's the same with all of the belief's that are out there. Whether or not one is right or another is wrong . . . It shouldn't affect our quest for our own relationship of a perfected heart in Christ.
QuoteLet's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.
(A) Continue to believe in the Bible
Yes, the only reason I know of UR was through a vision given to me by God. There is a case for UR, He shown me this in three days and that is when reading Scripture changed. There is only one way to read Scripture, and that is by the nature of the One who inspired it, and that is "Love".
Quote(B) Reject the Bible
I am not some ignorant fool who would lean on my own understanding of how things should be compared to what things actually say. If there was no case for UR in the Bible, I would need to consider if the Bible was ever inspired by God, and Christianity the Truth or submit that UR was a fanciful idea but I just completely didn't understand the nuances of why infinite torment of a finite individual for his finite actions could be true. I would be like an SDA, and believe in annihilationism.
Quote from: Craig
I would be like an SDA, and believe in annihilationism.
Before coming to believe in the salvation of all I believed in annihilation, it made more sense than ET to me and there are more scriptures to support it than ET.
If you think about it, there are scriptures to support ET, annihilation, and UR, it all depends on how you want to interpret them.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on August 27, 2008, 07:24:39 PM
If you think about it, there are scriptures to support ET, annihilation, and UR, it all depends on how you want to interpret them.
CHB
I agree. For me, it was from a place of brokeness, that I was able to see that LOVE never FAILS.
Quote from: CHB on August 27, 2008, 07:24:39 PM
If you think about it, there are scriptures to support ET, annihilation, and UR, it all depends on how you want to interpret them.
More important is in what doctrine all scripures fit.
If 99% can be read as ET and UR and 1% only as UR then UR is proven.
Simply because a contradiction would mean either God was lying or mistaking.
I wrote the below study some years ago, AJ.
===========================================
THE IMPLICATIONS of our BELIEFS -
What if the view the Ultimate Salvation and Reconciliation of all Mankind is wrong?
Matt 12:36 - "Men will have to give account on the Day of Judgment for every careless word spoken."
Those who hold to the view of UR,
will someday be held accountable before God:
(1.) For accepting, that our Sovereign God who is all powerful and that he is well able to perform that which is necessary, to fulfill all his will for the saving of all mankind.
(1 Tim 4:10)
(2.) For accepting, that our omniscient God is all wise, foreseeing every problem and then creating a solution, thereby reconciling all mankind unto Himself and oneanother.
(3.) For accepting, that our God will reconcile unto himself everyone, as the Scripture states he will. (Col 1:20)
(4.) For accepting, that the blood of Christ Jesus, that was spilled at Calvary, not only provided salvation for all men,
but is great enough to liberate and eventually, redeem and ransom all mankind that are lost. (2 Cor. 5:15, 1 Tim. 2:6)
(5.) For accepting, that Satan (our flesh) was unable to forever damn even one soul.
(1 John 3:8 )
(6.) For accepting, that none of God's plans were thwarted.
(1 Tim. 2:4, Isa. 46:10)
(7.) For accepting, that God's mercy truly does endure forever, for everyone.
(8.) For accepting, that there is wonderful hope for all mankind, through the 'glorious gospel' of peace to all men.
(2 Cor. 4:4)
Well now, what if I am wrong?
What if it somehow - isn't God's intentions to save ALL mankind?
The WORST thing that could happen with me, for holding the view that 'GOD WILL SAVE and
RECONCILE ALL of MANKIND' - is that I will have to apologize to God because I thought He
was better then preachers were trying to tell me He was.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Likewise - what if the views ET - Eternal Torment or ED - Annihilation for the LOST is wrong?
Matt 12:36 -" Men will have to give account on the Day of Judgment for every careless word spoken."
Those who hold to these views, ET / ED
will someday be held accountable before God for accepting:
(1.) That the Almighty God, is being defeated, when taught that myriad of unsaved ones, would go away unto
Eternal Punishment or Eternal Death, because The Sovereign God would not be capable of redeeming them.
(in otherwords the creature,.... whom God had created, has become as strong willed as the Creator.
and the Creator can do nothing about it...... - this is ridiculous)
(2.) That the all omniscient and wise God was not smart enough to provide a redemption plan around
the stubbornness of some men.
(3.) That some of God's plans and purposes will indeed be thwarted.
(this is contrary to Isa 45:10 - that states that NONE of God's plans will every be thwarted)
(4.) That Satan (our flesh) was victorious through deception, thereby condemning millions of men to an endless
anguish of burning hell.
(an utter error - Isa 25:8 & 1 Jn 3:8 - because Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.)
(5.) That the blood of Jesus Christ was spilled in vain for those he was unable to redeem.
this is a lie - (2 Cor. 5:15, 1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus tasted death for Every man, and Jesus is a ransom for All men.)
(6.) That there are limits to God's love, mercy and forgiveness.
(7.) That some men will teach 'a different gospel' - it's only a so called good news,...... that also imposes fear and
intimidation upon lost men, ...... of such a nature that lost men, must receive their words, or .....it is said,
that they will be sure to be tormented and fried for eternity.
(8.) That man's eternal destiny is sealed at his death, and if he dies as lost, then he is hopelessly lost for forever.
(The following verse is future tense, therefore, there is hope for all mankind .......Phil 2:9 - Every knee
will bow and Every tongue will confess righteousness and strength in the Lord.)
Please consider now, my friend, what if YOU are wrong?
What if God's DOES reconcile ALL, just as He states He will?
What do you suppose will happen to you,....on that day of judgment..... for holding the view that 'GOD'S IS UNABLE TO SAVE ALL', - when in fact and indeed He does?
Perhaps a little weeping and wailing - when you finally realized that you've been slandering your Savior all your life?
Until now, dear one, perhaps you could claim ignorance on this issue,...... but no more,.... you can no longer plead ignorant. You already know to much for that.
Quote from: AJ on August 27, 2008, 09:03:32 PM
Perhaps a little weeping and wailing - when you finally realized that you've been slandering your Savior all your life?
Does the same apply if UR isn't true?
ETers always said it was just fine to send people to hell.
However UR folks say God would ve worse than satan for doing so.
Also slander and/or trying control God.
Or we could find out that because we believed in a God we will reincarnate into something like a horse fly and upon discovering what a crappy deal that was you see the bug zapper when it's too late. :laughing7:
Re: What would you guys do if the Bible did really contain the concept of ET?
My answer.....simple....I would still keep the greater hope within my heart, and the belief that God is good, and He has the power to carry out His will!
I was personally asked this very question before.
I didn't give an answer at the time because it made me feel very pressured. The question was springing from fear and a belief that I wasn't obeying the Bible.
Some time after this question was asked of me, I had a question of my own that I could have asked him:
What if you found out that the Bible "said" you should kill your wife and children? Would you obey the Bible or just ignore it?
What a stupid and unfair question.
Quote from: hopeful on August 28, 2008, 03:25:02 PM
What if you found out that the Bible "said" you should kill your wife and children? Would you obey the Bible or just ignore it?
What a stupid and unfair question.
I think the answer is one would obey it. Think about the time when God commanded Moses to sacrifice his son.
Quote from: Paul on August 28, 2008, 03:30:04 PM
Quote from: hopeful on August 28, 2008, 03:25:02 PM
What if you found out that the Bible "said" you should kill your wife and children? Would you obey the Bible or just ignore it?
What a stupid and unfair question.
I think the answer is one would obey it. Think about the time when God commanded Moses to sacrifice his son.
Hi Paul...do you mean Abraham......I don't remember God commanding Moses to sacrifice his son?
I believe that God spoke to Abraham's heart/spirit/mind.....whatever you want to call it. God speaks to us the same way today...this is the same way that God can speak to us when we read the scriptures, or when we are simply taking a walk outside, driving....or talking with friends or family, etc........
All Christians believe in the story of Abraham.
I wonder what the same Christians would think if their neighbor killed his children on command of God.
Would they think the neighbor is:
a] Insane.
b] Just a murderer.
c] Blessed because of his close relation with God.
d] Fooled by satan.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2008, 06:55:27 PM
All Christians believe in the story of Abraham.
I wonder what the same Christians would think if their neighbor killed his children on command of God.
Would they think the neighbor is:
a] Insane.
b] Just a murderer.
c] Blessed because of his close relation with God.
d] Fooled by satan.
Insane murderer fooled by Satan. :)
NUTS Whitewings you beat me to it!
This has been a platform of mine lately. I'm in a different place with the Word than I have been in the recent past. Actually, it's a lot like other areas in my life . . . I see things that I can't fully explain, but I know there's a change in the atmosphere as to how it's to be taken. Then later understanding does eventually come . .so long as I don't reject the original seed of it in the beginning.
Reading the Word . .literally . .applying it . .literally . .is no longer effective as it once was . . .because God is leading us into the person of rest . . .away from our days of works and labor. Same Word, same outcome, different process. When revelating in Truth, we're to see what lies beneath. Scripture never says Goliath is the carnal man and the cutting off of his head is to resemble how we're to come to Christ . . .headless . . . and it "won't" say it. People . . .on this forum even . .have come against our efforts to share on a revelatory manner due to the fact that we're not proving ourselves with Scripture and verse of everything we're seeing.
If it's not in the Bible . .then it's probably not of God . . .or at least that's the implication. But yet it was CLEAR in the days of Abraham that men were never to sacrifice another man . . . But yet God came to Abraham and asked him to do the very thing that men were not to do . .and Abraham never argued it . .never hesitated and wondered "is that God?". He never based his relationship on what was written, but on what he heard. God didn't speak to Adam through the law, but through his heart. Abraham obviously knew the law, that's why he was sacrificing in the first place. But when the Word came and instructed him to do something against the law . . .he didn't hesitate.
I'm also reminded of Peter . . .God lowered the sheet . . .told Peter to break his law, Peter refused . . . But once Peter realized the truth, he obeyed and as a result, the Spirit was poured out to the Gentile race.
The Word without the Spirit will just make you old and brittle. But when the Spirit illumates the Word . . ."then" light and life will illuminate through you. Someone said on another thread that even Jesus had to be "anointed" by God before he went into ministry. That's a powerful revelation in and of itself.
Sotw . .did you understand his question? Or did I misunderstand it.
Quote from: Nathan on August 28, 2008, 08:36:48 PM
NUTS Whitewings you beat me to it!
This has been a platform of mine lately. I'm in a different place with the Word than I have been in the recent past. Actually, it's a lot like other areas in my life . . . I see things that I can't fully explain, but I know there's a change in the atmosphere as to how it's to be taken. Then later understanding does eventually come . .so long as I don't reject the original seed of it in the beginning.
Reading the Word . .literally . .applying it . .literally . .is no longer effective as it once was . . .because God is leading us into the person of rest . . .away from our days of works and labor. Same Word, same outcome, different process. When revelating in Truth, we're to see what lies beneath. Scripture never says Goliath is the carnal man and the cutting off of his head is to resemble how we're to come to Christ . . .headless . . . and it "won't" say it. People . . .on this forum even . .have come against our efforts to share on a revelatory manner due to the fact that we're not proving ourselves with Scripture and verse of everything we're seeing.
If it's not in the Bible . .then it's probably not of God . . .or at least that's the implication. But yet it was CLEAR in the days of Abraham that men were never to sacrifice another man . . . But yet God came to Abraham and asked him to do the very thing that men were not to do . .and Abraham never argued it . .never hesitated and wondered "is that God?". He never based his relationship on what was written, but on what he heard. God didn't speak to Adam through the law, but through his heart. Abraham obviously knew the law, that's why he was sacrificing in the first place. But when the Word came and instructed him to do something against the law . . .he didn't hesitate.
I'm also reminded of Peter . . .God lowered the sheet . . .told Peter to break his law, Peter refused . . . But once Peter realized the truth, he obeyed and as a result, the Spirit was poured out to the Gentile race.
The Word without the Spirit will just make you old and brittle. But when the Spirit illumates the Word . . ."then" light and life will illuminate through you. Someone said on another thread that even Jesus had to be "anointed" by God before he went into ministry. That's a powerful revelation in and of itself.
That is powerful......great post Nathan! Much to think about.....
Suppose I re-read the Bible in Greek and concluded that it's over-all message involves eternal torment for some-- I would immediately reject the Bible as the most diabolical work in all of human literature. I would wage a personal war against faith in the Bible, trying to convince everyone to reject the Bible and embrace a more humane vision of God, humanity, and the universe.
That being said, I love the Bible, and I love Jesus even more. It just doesn't teach ET-- nor did he.
Quote from: rhellis on September 03, 2008, 09:27:34 AM
Suppose I re-read the Bible in Greek and concluded that it's over-all message involves eternal torment for some-- I would immediately reject the Bible as the most diabolical work in all of human literature. I would wage a personal war against faith in the Bible, trying to convince everyone to reject the Bible and embrace a more humane vision of God, humanity, and the universe.
That being said, I love the Bible, and I love Jesus even more. It just doesn't teach ET-- nor did he.
Going along those same lines, the bible clearly showing ET would mean that God was very contradictory with His own words (forgive 77 times 7.....) and the fruits of the spirit would be such things as hate, vengence, etc... Aren't the fruits of the spirit the God's character? If all this were true, love would be an enemy of the God of the Bible.
QuoteWhat would you guys do if the Bible did really contain the concept of ET?
No matter what it contains, I will continue to believe in Universal salvation.
Ok, so you'd be rejecting the Bible. If you rejected the Bible, you wouldn't believe any of it: God, Jesus...
Quote from: Paul on September 07, 2008, 10:04:04 PM
Ok, so you'd be rejecting the Bible. If you rejected the Bible, you wouldn't believe any of it: God, Jesus...
Probably you are right... But that way I will have a bigger chance to enter heaven.Imagine trying to love God because you have to ... this would be a hypocrisy.
Is it a fair question to even ask? Both sides are adamant about their stance on the topic, meaning both already believe the Bible is affirming their understanding . .but in this instance . . .someone is inaccurate in their conclusion. One has a hell that is eternal damnation, the other has life for every man.
I remember when I was in the ET belief and I even said to others "if you can live a worldly life and still go to heaven . .that isn't fair to all of those who chose to live godly lives. If heaven is full of the cheaters, I want a second opinion."
My thinking was totally selfish. I didn't "want" ungodly people to experience this same grace that has redeemed me. I claim to live by grace, but I believed a lie . .I didn't live by grace, I chose grace for myself, and eternal damnation for those that I judged to have missed their chance at life. How much God has grown since those days. The more I understand Him, the bigger he gets. The perimeters of his grace are just unimaginable. I love that!!
Bottom line to the original question, we walk by faith in knowing that just as all who were born of the first Adam were born into the fallen nature, even moreso, are those redeemed by the second Adam because of his regenerating nature of resurrection and life. My mind can not deter what's already been done. All it does is, activate what's been done to manifest in my now. And that is saying a plenty!!
Personally, I would question God's character in the event that ET was absolutely true and biblically supported.
If God were one to do the ultimate evil, then He would also be guilty of other atrocities, like child molestation, rape, tyranny, and the list goes on and on.
I would futher demand to know why He even made me, if that were true at all.
I would defintely think the concept of "The Love of God" would be an outright lie, and that God and Satan were one and the same.
But thankfully, the ET concept was invented by men who want to do nothing but dominate and control people. I'm sure they will answer as to why they associate God with their sick beliefs.
Chuck
Or . . .will they come to know the same grace as we have?
Chuck
you will find that No where In scripture ,that UNDERSTANDING UR is a Pre-requisite to being BEING saved...
Im sure you Know the scrips in Eph...by Grace, faith.....
If ya do find something to the contrary...pray inform me Bro :icon_flower:
Blessed are those INDEED, :icon_flower: who come to see Salvation FOR ALL. :icon_flower:
Taffy
It just sounds to me like Chuck is upset with those who have the mind of the "Pharisee" also know by Jesus as "brood of Vipers or white-washed tombs"......the one thing Jesus seems to hate the most.....if there ever was something Jesus hates...that was it -- the cowardly yet prideful hypocrite. This mindset most certainly is one of death and of the spiritual blind, but there is hope for even these although it may appear that Satan has removed all Light within them.
The Phariseedic nature that I see most frustrating is the one that stands at the gate of truth, he himself won't enter in as it conflicts with everything he's convinced himself to understand, and yet he goes out of his way to deter others from entering in as well.
Quote from: Paul on August 27, 2008, 06:17:12 PM
Let's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.
(A) Continue to believe in the Bible
(B) Reject the Bible
Reject.
QuoteLet's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.
(A) Continue to believe in the Bible
(B) Reject the Bible
To me this question sounds like this...
Let's pretend that their wasn't a case for a God loving in the Bible,
would you still....?
(A) Continue to believe in the Bible
(B) Reject the Bible
If I
had to answer this hypothetical question then my choice would be B. If someone answered A, then either their god is the bible, or they truly believe it out of fear and not choice.
Quote from: Sarah on September 17, 2008, 03:31:09 AM
QuoteLet's pretend there really wasn't a case for UR.
(A) Continue to believe in the Bible
(B) Reject the Bible
To me this question sounds like this...
Let's pretend that their wasn't a case for a God loving in the Bible,
would you still....?
(A) Continue to believe in the Bible
(B) Reject the Bible
If I had to answer this hypothetical question then my choice would be B. If someone answered A, then either their god is the bible, or they truly believe it out of fear and not choice.
Hypothetically I stick with the answer I gave. Realistically, if the bible contained the ET message and the bible was truly the inspired word of God, then believing or not believing would not change a thing.
We might reject the bible, and therefore condemn ourselves to punishment forever.
Furthermore, just nitpicking the whole idea of it all now. :laughing7:
Which ET message would the bible truly contain? Real torment in real flames where our flesh and nerves would continually regenerate so that we would not be burnt up and continue to feel the pain.
Or would there be various levels of torment depending upon how bad we was? Would there be the first class section for the "Good" people of the world and the coach seats with the most horrible searing torment for a nazi gaurd who abused and killed prisoners, and fueled the ovens.
Maybe it's just the Deep Sorrow view, that one might make it even easier to reject the bible, doesn't sound all that bad.
It feels like some of this creates unnecessary arguments when dealing with something that doesn't exist . .to us anyway. Obviously ET people feel that the Bible does indeed affirm thier point of view on this. It's odd how we can have the exact same Word, the exact same translation, and yet be at totally different ends when it comes to what the translation is saying.
May the light shining in and through us continue to be "The" Light from the Father of lights rather than a light cultivated by our natural reasoning.
QuoteRealistically, if the bible contained the ET message and the bible was truly the inspired word of God, then believing or not believing would not change a thing.
We might reject the bible, and therefore condemn ourselves to punishment forever.
Yes, the original question does leave some to the imagination when considering a response. If it is an absolute that the bible is true and eternal torment is true, well then either (A), I'm choosing to manipulate myself and God so I can get a ticket into heaven along with those I love, or (B) realizing the absurdity of it and giving the finger to God until the afterlife. In that light, in my heart I may be doing B, but acting out A.
But if the bible taught eternal torment in certainty, I would reject it's validity. The very idea of it isn't even natural, nor does it line up with my experiences with God. I suppose I would have to choose that any of God's past dealings in the bible with me were just His mercy meeting me where I was.
Quote from: Nathan on September 17, 2008, 01:28:04 AM
The Phariseedic nature that I see most frustrating is the one that stands at the gate of truth, he himself won't enter in as it conflicts with everything he's convinced himself to understand, and yet he goes out of his way to deter others from entering in as well.
Yeah.....I agree Nathan.
Quote from: Taffy on September 16, 2008, 10:35:16 PM
Chuck
you will find that No where In scripture ,that UNDERSTANDING UR is a Pre-requisite to being BEING saved...
Taffy,
People like US will have to answer even though we understand UR. Besides, I never said that they had to understand UR as a pre-requisite for salvation, only that they would have to answer as to why they employed terrorizing doctrine in the name of God.
I'm sure nobody is going to get off willy-nilly just because everyone will eventually be saved. Besides, we are going to be judged according to our own standards of judgement in a manner of speaking. (A person who believes in ET will at least get the impression that this is what's going to happen to him, even though he will eventually get relief from it. Even Jesus used a little psychology on the Pharisees, using their own ideologies against them. Kinda like giving them a taste of their own medicine.)
Chuck
I'm still not 100% convinced that all will be saved just yet. Needless to say, this means that I can accurately tell you how I react to ET. Well, I'm depressed. And angry. And I feel like I'm dying spiritually. Enough said?
This kind of reminds me of when I was reading up on what the Bible had to say about animal souls. One guy, without any Biblical support, had the gall to say that because animals weren't shaped from the earth, their souls must logically be of a lesser quality. While they eat, feel, etc. their souls don't live on. Needless to say, I disagreed. The response? "We do know that God is just and that when we get to Heaven we will find ourselves in complete agreement with His decision on this issue, whatever it may be."
This is the answer I got most when I would ask about my loved ones who were supposedly in Hell. In the end, people act as though it doesn't matter, even if we must be decieved into happiness in the end. It's that kind of response that burdens my soul, plagues my mind with uholy thoughts and feelings, and drives me to what I can only describe as utter madness.
I've been aware of this thread since it started, but I really wanted to think through my answer 'cause I only vaguely remember that I used to believe ET because my mind has been so renewed to the truth of the Scriptures since I first saw UR with the first steps of clarity in 2001. I was a Word of Faith minister for 9 years prior to seeing UR. I suppose I'd still be doing what I had been doing up until that time with just focusing on the rights, priveleges, and responsibilities of the firstborn of redemption where Christ-derived wisdom, peace, love, faith, health, protection, and riches in all areas of life are concerned with the end-goal in mind of being blessed in order to be a blessing to all of the families of the earth.
The Abrahamic Covenant never was a missing part of the equation for me and for those that have taught like I have along those lines. It's just whether or not it'll ultimately completely restore absolutely all of humanity to God permanently that was the part that was veiled to me and to others who teach along those lines because of the pesky "forevers" in the KJV and other equally as rushed, presumptuous translations/paraphrases that are used by the mainstream.
The message of UR is genuinely in the Scriptures. And so is the blindness to it among Christians that think that they're standing firm in absolute truths. UR is unquestionably mainstream by the 2020s, on Christian television, in Word Churches, and elsewhere. I have total, completely assurance of that.
Martin,
You got me thinking about when that was my way of belief and I am not saying everyone is like me of course, but I really thought through the way I used to discuss the topic.
I then realized that while I was believing in ET I did one of two things primarily.
I parroted the explanations I was told and when I would study i would study within the acceptable material that I was told was accepted by Christians.
As I look back, I can see where God started to move me apart from that. It when I started taking my arguments to the online world. I started this before there was really an internet. Anyone remember local BBS's that you would call with your dial up modem?
I realized that up until that point, primarily I was sheltered from other points of view, sure amongst Christians there was debate like there is here, but no one argued about the more important issue and that was eternal punishment.
It was as automatic an assumption as Jesus being a Savior was. So no one ever questioned it within the circles I was in. Out in the world, even though there are unbelievers, primarily the unbelievers argue about the judgmentalism of Christians saying they are going to burn forever for being who they are.
I think when the light bulb turned on that i was just a parrot was from the last church I was in and through an exchange with the worship leader there.
It was a fight within my own spirit mostly, I said some things I regret through that dialog, but in the end I realized that I was being judged through not measuring up and perceicved failure and this was displeasing to God. I rejected that I failed just because I did not measure up to the leadership goals of the church and it was then I threw off the gloves and dug deep into scripture, searching out how to analyze the greek and hebrew.
It was then I discovered the meaning to "seek and ye shall find" It was also then I discovered the meaning to (proverbs 16:9). When I was drawn deep in my heart to know what God really thought of me, he showed me. I really did not expect to see Hell not being eternal, I had a mission to prove someone that got under my skin wrong.
In the end, I discovered the parts this worship leader was right about, along with the incorrect application of judgement on me and discovered one of the greatest messages I had ever seen.
So in the end, I am thankful for my trip through religion as it probably was necessary for me to learn what I learned and caused a thirst that has yet to be quenched.
Quote from: martincisneros on October 10, 2008, 09:43:18 AMThe message of UR is genuinely in the Scriptures. And so is the blindness to it among Christians that think that they're standing firm in absolute truths. UR is unquestionably mainstream by the 2020s, on Christian television, in Word Churches, and elsewhere. I have total, completely assurance of that.
I UR really becoming that mainstream? It's taboo in my community yet!
Is textual criticism allowed?
Quote from: Gabe Grinstead on October 27, 2008, 01:12:13 AM
The question isn't silly at all. I don't believe the Bible is needed when the Holy Spirit of God is an active agent in this world. Perhaps the Bible would be needed to to know that such a person exists, but the facts, or everything contained in the man compiled 66 books wouldn't need to be entirely 100% accurate. I mean, it isn't 100% accurate anyway due translation. Again, I have made this point before - it does nothing to believe it is 100% the Word of God in greek if you can't translate it 100% in another language. It is just a gymnastic type set of hoops that Christian's jump through in order to admit that there are errors in the Bible while at the same time saying it is the 100% Word of God. That is the silly part... It is just one huge mind game for many Christian's. Then there are those who believe the KJV 1611 is word for word the Word of God... I tell you, people want a map (Bible) because they are scared to trust in Christ to be their map.
Hi Gabe,
Your issue with the bible is irrevalent to the work of the holy spirit.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2008, 01:28:31 AM
Hi Gabe,
Your issue with the bible is irrevalent to the work of the holy spirit.
Good point Paul. I doubt few if any here are KJV-only, or even believe that we have any 100% accurate translations. [self-edited, could have been more gentle] My apologies, James.
Quote from: jabcat on October 27, 2008, 01:18:02 AM
Is textual criticism allowed?
No, Jabcat, stoning the Bible on Tentmaker isn't allowed.
I am sorry that you feel I am stoning the Bible by making my position clear. I don't play the game anymore. I believe in Christ, have doubts that the 66 books compiled are correct and translated properly. I don't consider that an attack on anyone, at least not anymore than the two posts that attacked me after my response. If someone wants to come out and saying something, just say it.
BTW - If you guys delete my post, but leave it quoted and allow another to reply what purpose does it serve? Seems silly if you ask me. So if you are censoring this forum from anyone who deviates from your viewpoint, at least be consistant with it - please.
The Bible isn't what's adulterated anyone's relationship with Lord Jesus and our heavenly Father. It's been the traditions of men that have made the Word of God of none effect, going so far as to even mess with printings of the Bible. But the Bible isn't difficult to translate in any important doctrinal matter. It has some enigmatic passages. No one here disputes that, though they might word it differently. But over 90% of the doctrines of any Church aren't based upon the riddles in the Bible. It's all of the nonsense about Christ having come to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved. It's all of this crap about Him being there for people every time but the last time, or in the end He's only as faithful as you were that has people on medication or becoming deists, agnostics, and atheists. It's not the riddles in the Bible that have people questioning His Lordship, where we're heading, why there's suffering in the world, etc. It's all of the confusion in Churches that our free will was given to us to eternally damn our souls rather than as a tool for our instruction, for our relating to one another, and for our learning what not to do. That's the traditions of men rather than the Scriptures. The Scriptures teach us as we're able to bare it. They take us as far as we're ready to go and no further. The Scriptures are complete when it comes to what God has provided for making us wise unto salvation through Jesus Christ. It's not a matter of trying the Scriptures and finding them in error, it's a matter of the Scriptures trying us and finding us in error. It's not that the Book doesn't work, it's that so often we don't. I don't mean that as an attack. Jesus Himself sticks by the Book. He didn't launch His attack against the devil with His baptism with the Holy Spirit, with His sinless life, or with His preexistence or whatever. "It is written" got Him through then just the same as it'll get us through today. Otherwise, life 7 sons of sceva's us!
Quote from: martincisneros on October 27, 2008, 03:03:34 AM
The Bible isn't what's adulterated anyone's relationship with Lord Jesus and our heavenly Father. It's been the traditions of men that have made the Word of God of none effect, going so far as to even mess with printings of the Bible. But the Bible isn't difficult to translate in any important doctrinal matter. It has some enigmatic passages. No one here disputes that, though they might word it differently. But over 90% of the doctrines of any Church aren't based upon the riddles in the Bible. It's all of the nonsense about Christ having come to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved. It's all of this crap about Him being there for people every time but the last time, or in the end He's only as faithful as you were that has people on medication or becoming deists, agnostics, and atheists. It's not the riddles in the Bible that have people questioning His Lordship, where we're heading, why there's suffering in the world, etc. It's all of the confusion in Churches that our free will was given to us to eternally damn our souls rather than as a tool for our instruction, for our relating to one another, and for our learning what not to do. That's the traditions of men rather than the Scriptures. The Scriptures teach us as we're able to bare it. They take us as far as we're ready to go and no further. The Scriptures are complete when it comes to what God has provided for making us wise unto salvation through Jesus Christ. It's not a matter of trying the Scriptures and finding them in error, it's a matter of the Scriptures trying us and finding us in error. It's not that the Book doesn't work, it's that so often we don't. I don't mean that as an attack. Jesus Himself sticks by the Book. He didn't launch His attack against the devil with His baptism with the Holy Spirit, with His sinless life, or with His preexistence or whatever. "It is written" got Him through then just the same as it'll get us through today. Otherwise, life 7 sons of sceva's us!
I can't say I really dissagree with your assessment, but that is your just perspective. However, I am totally lost here as we were just told not to debate these issues and here you are giving a rebuttal. I don't consider this fair and consistant moderation. IMO, I believe you should delete all posts regarding this, every last one of them in this thread, (including, Jab, Paul's and yous, as well as mine) and I will part ways. Otherwise, put my post back please and allow me to discuss and clarify further.
Quote from: jabcat on October 27, 2008, 01:46:27 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2008, 01:28:31 AM
Hi Gabe,
Your issue with the bible is irrevalent to the work of the holy spirit.
Good point Paul. This is old stuff from the Bible trashing days here, filled with supposition and IMO, inaccuracies...including, that I doubt few if any here are KJV-only, or even believe that we have any 100% accurate translations. Even the pretext of the suppositions are off point and inaccurate, but that's bothing new, just not recent. James.
A few things here
1) Nowhere did I say anyone
here believes that the King James 1611 AV version was the Word of God.
2) This isn't old stuff from the Bible trashing days because I don't trash the Bible. I have doubts, legitimate doubts that many, including the past Administrator at tenkmaker would also share.
3) I find it ironic that you state no one here believes that we have 100% accurate translations, yet that is essentially the same thing you use to accuse me of stoning the Bible.
The subject in and of itself is hypothetical in the first place. Since the Bible doesn't go against UR (At least, most in this thread have stated this) then it is a moot point anyway. So the hypothetical answer to the question would be the reject the Bible, in my viewpoint. Luckily, I do not have to outright reject the Bible, but that sure doesn't mean I consider it to be 100% perfect, without error. I have doubts on the authenticity, not of the individual books, but of the ones chosen for the 'compiled' book, since I have read many different canons before the official canon.
Edit ** Also, as I was posted in the prayer section, I realized that my tone over typing may not be what I desire. This is due to the irritation of my inflamed prostate. So please excuse any type of negative tone that you may detect in posts. I do not desire conflict, and I regard you all as my friends and fellow brothers and sisters. Please keep in mind, while I hold different views, I respect each and everyone one of you. Thankyou - Gabe
Take care of that medical issue. I know it's a real aggravation. I'll remember to pray for you. James.
Quote from: martincisneros on October 27, 2008, 03:03:34 AM
The Bible isn't what's adulterated anyone's relationship with Lord Jesus and our heavenly Father. It's been the traditions of men that have made the Word of God of none effect, going so far as to even mess with printings of the Bible. But the Bible isn't difficult to translate in any important doctrinal matter. It has some enigmatic passages. No one here disputes that, though they might word it differently. But over 90% of the doctrines of any Church aren't based upon the riddles in the Bible. It's all of the nonsense about Christ having come to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved. It's all of this crap about Him being there for people every time but the last time, or in the end He's only as faithful as you were that has people on medication or becoming deists, agnostics, and atheists. It's not the riddles in the Bible that have people questioning His Lordship, where we're heading, why there's suffering in the world, etc. It's all of the confusion in Churches that our free will was given to us to eternally damn our souls rather than as a tool for our instruction, for our relating to one another, and for our learning what not to do. That's the traditions of men rather than the Scriptures. The Scriptures teach us as we're able to bare it. They take us as far as we're ready to go and no further. The Scriptures are complete when it comes to what God has provided for making us wise unto salvation through Jesus Christ. It's not a matter of trying the Scriptures and finding them in error, it's a matter of the Scriptures trying us and finding us in error. It's not that the Book doesn't work, it's that so often we don't. I don't mean that as an attack. Jesus Himself sticks by the Book. He didn't launch His attack against the devil with His baptism with the Holy Spirit, with His sinless life, or with His preexistence or whatever. "It is written" got Him through then just the same as it'll get us through today. Otherwise, life 7 sons of sceva's us!
Excellent. :thumbsup: The "free" will point is interesting. I believe in more of a limited "free" will, but I appreciate your thoughts on this...more a matter of our growth/maturity...part of the ability to choose within the scope God
does give us. God's blessing, James.
To answer the OP question...I'd believe scripture, as the Spirit and the Word agree. Thankfully! I see UR all through the scriptures. :bowing:.
Hi all :girlheart:
You know I am starting to see more and more of the Bible supporting UR 2. I am not that into it yet tho.
A thought that still scares me immensely tho is this. Bare with me pls. All sins will be forgiven men except one - according to the bible. We all know what that sin is since it it mentioned in three Gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke) - okay now I fully understand the concept of "this age or the next", but 2 of the 3 passages just end with something like "not be forgiven" fullstop - no reference to when or where or ages or anything (one or two of them not sure now). Okay now the thoughts I keep having about that is, what is the chances that Jesus was talking that everyone in the world will be saved - all sins shall be forgiven but one - EXCEPT the blasphemy of the H.S - What if blasphemy is exactly what it says it is - tongue sins and not rejection (like some people believe it is).
Is it possible that Christ did die for all the sins of the whole world except one. That everyone will eventually be saved after repentance and/or cleansing in the "next life" - except those that did the one thing that he warned not to do. That is a bible passage that makes for many debates between ET supporters and UR believers. Could both in a sense be right? Could the "unforgivable" sinners just possibly die never to be reconciled? Or could they be the only ones destined for ET?.......
Please be honest in your opinions and answers - remember its just a concern of mine and I am really not meaning to push anyones buttons with this.
Much Much love in Christ
Dee
DD,
QuoteLuke 12:10 PNT1745 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that to come,
The above is from the only translation I have that that adds "age" to the end of the verse.
The Ethiopic version also adds at the close of this verse, as in Matthew, "neither in this world, nor in that which is to come".
QuoteMark 3:29 Rotherham But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin:
QuoteMatthew 12:32 Rotherham And, whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him,—but, whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or the coming.
But I do see your point.
If the verses contradict you found a major mistake in the Bible!
The contradiction would not only be between the mentioned verses but between many verses.
All I can think of right now is that Luke was speaking about the present....?
Looking forward for input from those who have found more info on this!
(iii) It tells us of the unforgivable sin, which is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Both Matthew and Mark record that Jesus spoke about this sin immediately after the scribes and Pharisees had attributed his cures to the prince of devils instead of to God (Matt 12:31-32; Mk 3:28-29). These men could look at the very grace and power of God and call it the work of the devil. To understand this we must remember that Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit as the Jews understood that conception, not in the full Christian sense, about which his audience at that time obviously knew nothing.
To a Jew, God's Spirit had two great functions. Through the Spirit he told his truth to men, and it was by the action of the Spirit in a man's mind and heart that he could recognize and grasp God's truth. Now, if a man for long enough refuses to use a faculty he will lose it. If we refuse to use any part of the body long enough it atrophies. Darwin tells how when he was a young man he loved poetry and music; but he so devoted himself to biology that he completely neglected them. The consequence was that in later life poetry meant nothing to him and music was only a noise, and he said that if he had his life to live over again he would see to it that he would read poetry and listen to music so that he would not lose the faculty of enjoying them.
Just so we can lose the faculty of recognizing God. By repeatedly refusing God's word, by repeatedly taking our own way, by repeatedly shutting our eyes to God and closing our ears to him, we can come to a stage when we do not recognize him when we see him, when to us evil becomes good and good becomes evil. That is what happened to the scribes and Pharisees. They had so blinded and deafened themselves to God that when he came they called him the devil.
Why is that the unforgivable sin? Because in such a state repentance is impossible. If a man does not even realize that he is sinning, if goodness no longer makes any appeal to him, he cannot repent. God has not shut him out; by his repeated refusals he has shut himself out. That means that the one man who can never have committed the unforgivable sin is the man who fears that he has, for once a man has committed it, he is so dead to God that he is conscious of no sin at all.
(iv) It tells us of the rewarded loyalty. The reward of loyalty is no material thing. It is that in heaven Jesus will say of us, "This was my man. Well done!"
(v) It tells us of the help of the Holy Spirit. In the fourth Gospel the favourite title of the Holy Spirit is the Paraclete. Parakletos (<G3875>) means someone who stands by to help. It can be used of a witness, or an advocate to plead our cause. In the day of trouble there need be no fear, for no less a person than the Holy Spirit of God stands by to help
24 sn Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit probably refers to a total rejection of the testimony that the Spirit gives to Jesus and the plan of God. This is not so much a sin of the moment as of one's entire life, an obstinate rejection of God's message and testimony. Cf.
But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit (tōi de eis to hagion pneuma blasphēmēsanti). This unpardonable sin is given by Mar_3:28.; Mat_12:31. immediately after the charge that Jesus was in league with Beelzebub. Luke here separates it from the same charge made in Judea (Luk_11:15-20). As frequently said, there is no sound reason for saying that Jesus only spoke his memorable sayings once. Luke apparently finds a different environment here. Note the use of eis here in the sense of "against."
Not a full answer to your question/fear; but I think especially the blue text should give you a good night sleep.
Basicly is says: Who worries most of the unforgiveble sin is the one who needs to worry least.
Thanks WhiteWings
Does anyone else have any views on this? Is it a possibility?
I was thinking about you today DeeDee and I actually became angry. I became angry because I know the goodness of Him. I know that when He died so that the world may have relationship, He did exactly that. You are reconciled to Him DeeDee. You are not so special that you have committed a crime in which His hand is no longer extended. You are not a special brand of evil. When you accept that, perhaps He will enlighten you to the full meaning of what the 'unpardonable' sin was or is. You will not be able to understand what you are seeking unless you first accept that His Love for you is unconditional.
Love, Sarah
Thanks so much Sarah. I even have tears in my eyes now.
You know I really hate my "paranoia" in this instance and it tears me up inside, It's born out of the fact that I don't ever want to be separated from Him (then again who does, that is the most awful unimaginable thing in this universe) Feels like a total nightmare sometimes when I think that there is one sin in this world that is deemed unforgivable whereas before I read of it I thought all was forgiven automatically when you repent and feel very very sorry. I know how much He loves all His children and I would never ever want to intentionally hurt Him.
That one sin in my eyes is many different things that all boil down to the same thing i.e its in a sense all the definitions that people have given it, because to me all make sense (the definitions) and all can be seen as the right definition. I know what I have done. Thats not the problem. The only issue I am still dealing with the the unforgivable part, but it's getting better every single day. Each day I feel a little less unforgivable and each day I learn to love all on this forum more and more. That can only be from one source, and that source I believe is Him.
Thanks again for all your support Sarah, you have such a good heart and your words really touch me deeply.
Blessings
Dee
QuoteIs it possible that Christ did die for all the sins of the whole world except one. That everyone will eventually be saved after repentance and/or cleansing in the "next life" - except those that did the one thing that he warned not to do. That is a bible passage that makes for many debates between ET supporters and UR believers. Could both in a sense be right? Could the "unforgivable" sinners just possibly die never to be reconciled? Or could they be the only ones destined for ET?.......
I am quoting myself above. If you look further up this thread you can read my theory. Its not so much about me as it is about wondering if this theory could hold any truth. Its an interesting topic to me. I would love some more educated theories and answers to this.
Blessings
Dee