the Kingdom of God

[Amie]

I've been away a while, but I never forget this forum!  I love the diversity!

I read in a recent article that "Pantelists" never address how they could believe that this is the new heavens and earth and things like the Holocaust happen.  As one who falls under that label (among many), I'm interested in sharing.  I wrote an article a short time ago that I think would serve as a great opener to how I see things at present:  http://www.womenbeyond.com/?c=127&a=1176

It's titled, "The Knowledge of Good and Overdue Chores"< lol!

I'll check in later on - I'm off to work!

Amie

[Nathan]

I read your article . . . it would seem you're answering your own question . . .very good answers.  I like the currency thing . . . when dealing with the things of God . . your money is no good here.  You can't buy spiritual truth with currency made from natural reasoning. For those who want the answer to questions like "Why do bad things happen to good people . . ."  It's almost like . . .you're trying to buy an answer with the wrong currency. 

God is good . . .his creation is perfect.  "We" are the ones with our natural reasoning that categorize what is "right" what is "wrong".  But God created both so that one could be strengthen by the other . .and the other could bring balance to the one.  Before life can come, death must manifest first.  But if all we do is focus on the death, we become distracted and miss the life all together.  But on the other hand, if you pursue life, you will find it . .and when you find it . . .death will then be of no affect.

Matthew 6
22 "Your eye is a lamp that provides light for your body. When your eye is good, your whole body is filled with light. 23 But when your eye is bad, your whole body is filled with darkness. And if the light you think you have is actually darkness, how deep that darkness is!


It's all in one's perspective.  I pursue life, I will see life in everything.  If I pursue law, I will see everything as a law broken.  One relinquishes control to the Father, the other embraces control never intended for me to have.

He who the Son sets free . . .is free indeed!!  HOOOORAH!

[Amie]

Wow Nathan! 

I found this profound:   

It's almost like . . .you're trying to buy an answer with the wrong currency.

I loved your whole post.  I think that love contains good and evil and probably is that balance that you mentioned. 

I saw that interview with Jeffrey Dahmer's dad.  His love for his son was untouched, though he believed like everyone, that his son should be stopped from being able to hurt anyone anymore. 

We can look with the eyes of love and see "evil" as an opportunity.  Why is a person "evil"?  What can we do to prevent children growing into that?  What can we do for people now?  (Not that I'm advocating to do so to the neglect of those who have been hurt  )

I think that love is inclusive.  The Pharisees might have said, ".. but look Jesus, they're sinners!"  Jesus will have said, "I will lay down my life for the smallest."

Amie

[Nathan]

When my wife and I had our first child, we were elated.  She was a perfect baby, she never fussed, never whined she was beautiful in every way.  Her skin was ivory and her hair was jet black . . .she really looked like a beautiful China doll.  So when the second child came, we were just as elated.  Also another girl.  But Miranda had a different personality than Steph.  Miranda had a much more outgoing personality, she was much more tomboyish and she loved her sister.  We had a perfect little family.

My wife's sister also started having children and she had two boys about the same age as our two girls.  But her boys were always fussing, always fighting, always demanding . . . after visiting them, I'd go home and just hug my girls just because they were nothing like their cousins!  And their mother had a saying that always rubbed my wife and I both the wrong way . . "Boys will be boys . . ."  Ugh!  We HATED hearing that from her all the time.  We felt it had everything to do with the upbringing than it did anything else.

Thirteen years went by . . .and we were blessed doubly with the surprise of life in our lives once again.  This time around, twin boys . . . and even though we're the same parents . .they are NOT the same as their sisters were!!!  Oh, my gosh!!  The bed has so much more appreciation at night now than it has ever had before.  Both theirs and ours . . .its' amazing how fast the house quiets down when they take their nap or go to bed at night.  It's totally changed our perspectives on raising kids.  The worse thing we could ever do though, is try to conform them to be like their sisters were when they were that age.

I believe that's just what religion does, it conforms you to be something that you just aren't.  In the end, the true you will surface regardless because that's the personality that God has given you at birth.  I think that's one of the reasons why I embrace this time in Christ so much . . . I love freedom.  I can't stand conformity . .especially when it comes from the standards of others.  I don't believe God ever intended for us as spirits to be earth dwelling people.  We were born to fly whether or minds believe that or not.

I love the fact that Jesus said the kingdom is consisted of children and not old people.  I remember on my 18th birthday, I don't remember who I was talking to, but I remember saying it clearly, that regardless of my age, I never wanted to grow old.  I knew I would have to grow up eventually, but I never wanted to grow old.  And I personally think that's why so many people, like the ones on these forums, have issues with attending churches . . .they can feel the age of religion creeping in and they're not ready to get old just yet.  You can become mature without worrying about getting old.

The church taught us that once you come to Christ, you need to give up all your friends and only have friends that go to church and believe what you believe.  How many kids did you grow up with that loved going to church?  yeah . . .me and my sisters and that wasnt' because we loved church . . .we didn't have a choice.  But my friends at school . .the ones going to hell and I was to save . .yeah those, they never understood the purpose or necessity of church and neither did I and I grew up in it.  But the church doesn't want your natural personality to manifest . .they want their religious one to be on you so you advertise for them.  They call it God, but it isn't . .it's man's standard of who God is . . a far cry from the True God.

This is all stemming from your question about keeping your children from evil . . .the only thing that can overcome is love.  Love your children regardless of the STUPID decsions (yeah, I have two teenaged daugters now . . .stupid decisions are made regularly in my house . .and those are just the ones "I" make . . .I wouldn't know where to begin in explaining some of theirs . ..)

Bottom line for me is . .let their personalities mature at their own pace without laying on the conformities of religious standards.  They'll fall just like me, they'll get up just like me, and they'll learn from their bad choices . .just like me.  We're here to basically be their guardians for a temporary amount of time.  The only thing that can influence evil is the love of God . . .so . . . just love on them.  Give them the wisdom God has graced you with, let them know their options as to what may happen in the choices they make, nudge them here, guide them there and let the Holy Spirit form in them his idea of a mature youth.  I'm sure God's wisdom is much more effective than mine anyway.

[Amie]

Truly Nathan,

The world has been delivered from evil and hearts like yours glorify that.  I am at a loss for words (which is unusual).  I appreciate your response a great deal.  It is so great to know that there are parents like you in the world -- and who can relate to the struggle of parenting that's just a part of being a parent, ya know?  Freedom is a beautiful thing and something dear to me as well, but freedom isn't always easy.

Amie

[Nathan]

Freedom was the essence of Christ.  He obviously knew the Word, but because the spirit was in him . . .he knew the original intent and purpose of the word as well.  He didn't preach the Word  . . . he used it against those who thought they had a monopoly on it, but to the rest, he proclaimed his freedom through manifesting love and preaching principles.  Huge difference.

When my head is convinced it understands the Word, I, as a wineskin become brittle and unflexible toward others.  Christ never did that, he was always forgiving, showing grace before judgment.  It's a tough thing to do when trying to apply that to each other, let alone your kids.  But that's what walking in the spirit is all about.  We gotta walk in the faith of knowing that even though on the surface, our kids may believe they rebel against us at times, there is a spirit seed that has passed from us into them that will manifest out of them through spiritual germination.

You have wonderful and refreshing kind words, I appreciate that, and I join with you in thanksgiving to God that there are many around us who have not bent their knees to Baal as God says to Elijah.  Sometimes we lose sight of the bigger picture and our minds convince us we're the only ones experiencing the things we do.  But truth is, there is an army out there, not of war, but of rest and that's the change that the body is going through . .just as one goes from infancy to toddlerdom, to adolesence, to adulthood . .it comes in phases, so the church is as well. 

The latest phase God is leading the body through is from applying the Word as a weapon of warfare, to one of a plowshare.  Rather than argue with each other about what we believe to be right or wrong, we're being transformed into seed planters . . .we plant a seed that was planted in us . . .we move on . . .if the soil is not recieving the seed . . .it's not the season . .and we move on.  If we try to force it in, it becomes spiritual rape . .and there's been enough of that going on in the churches as it is . . .let us leave the things of our childhood behind and press on to the mature things that God has for us .  . . a child is to high-strung to find rest . . .rest can only come to those who can lay down their childish ways . .

just thinking out loud

[Molly]

Nice post, Nathan!

[Nathan]

 :mblush:

[Molly]

When my head is convinced it understands the Word, I, as a wineskin become brittle and unflexible toward others.  Christ never did that, he was always forgiving, showing grace before judgment.  It's a tough thing to do when trying to apply that to each other, let alone your kids.  But that's what walking in the spirit is all about.  We gotta walk in the faith of knowing that even though on the surface, our kids may believe they rebel against us at times, there is a spirit seed that has passed from us into them that will manifest out of them through spiritual germination.

I especially liked this part.  It is so true.  The shepherd uses the staff to guide the sheep, not beat them over the head.  He uses his rod to beat off the wolves and predators, not to beat the sheep.

The shepherd loves his sheep and gives his life for them--leading me to my favorite psalm about our good Shepherd.

1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

--Psalm23

[Nathan]

To me, this is the picture that was being portrayed when Peter cut the hear off of the servant of the high priest.  Peter seems to always have been over-stepping the purpose of Christ.  He did it when his name was changed, and he did it again when what Jesus prophesied at the time he changed his name, happened in the garden.  The focus was on the sword so much that there wasn't much thought put into the purpose for the sword.

Peter felt it was his calling to defend Truth . . .and he was rebuked for it every time.  When Christ told them to sell whatever they had to go out and buy a sword, he was speaking of the sword of the Spirit . . .

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

When I sell all I own, I am dying to myself so that He may live in me.  He told the disciples to sell what they had and buy a sword, they saw this as preparation for war, he was speaking spiritually, they were receiving logically . . .it just never works when you mix spirit with natural reasoning.  So when the time came, Jesus was to go, Peter decided to take it upon himself to fight against what his natural reasoning convinced him that what was about to happen to Jesus was wrong, and he stepped in front of Jesus swinging away with his sword.

It's the same thing seen on these forums . . .we weld our knowledge of the sword at each other, cutting down anything in our path, all the while, we ourselves have once again become satan against the purpose of Christ.  Satan simply means adversary.  It's why Jesus called that to Peter, because in the process of defending Jesus, Peter became the adversary of the very thing he thought he was defending.  In both cases, the place where Jesus just changed his name and again in the garden.  So then, Jesus, in the garden, stated what I have also preached to others in my church . .put your sword away.

Why?  Because it was never intended to be used to defend Christ, prove Christ, or to cut anyone to pieces with.  But my head gets in the way of that still, and I want to give in to the urge to quote Scripture after Scripture and tell you why you're wrong and I'm right . .but the voice just continues . .put the sword away until you learn how to use it appropriately.  My head just doesn't get it.  But I'm learning now, it was never intended for my head to "get" because all my head wants to do is, control something that it has completely no understanding of. 

The Word is not for my head, it's for my Spirit.  When applied to my spirit, the sword then can become the plowshare as it's purpose is to plant life in others as I continue to let it be a sword "in me".  It's purpose is to divide spirit from soul . . . illuminate life over knowledge . .and once it's been illuminated, it's up to me to choose what realm I wish to live in . . .life, or law. . .I chose life.

In choosing life, grace then goes into affect in the areas in me that have not yet come into their maturity in Christ.  The tares in me, are not my responsibility to separate, again, that's the purpose of the sword, it is the angel . . .original definition, "messenger".  It is the truth in the message of the Spirit that removes the tares upon my wheat's maturing.  Until then, I live in the weakness of the flesh and it's okay . .because in my weakness, my dependancy then is forced to be upon Him . . .at which point, I am not weak, but I become strong.  Yes?

[onlytruth]

thats good nathan-God is going to do what hes gonna do ,so we shouldn't get in the way :icon_king:

[Molly]

I understand what you're saying, Nathan.  You can't teach anyone, the Spirit has to show them.  Like you said, it doesn't always make sense to the mind.

On the other hand, God's word never comes back void.  So I don't think it's a useless exercise to keep reading scripture, even if you don't yet understand it.

[Nathan]

Oh my goodness no . . .keep reading by all means . .it's a spiritual seed that IS SUPPOSED to bypass your mind, and received into your spirit.  That's why seeing your spirit as your man and your soul as your woman is so key.  The woman in you is to submit to the man in you . . . it's the act of intimacy, the woman must "allow" the man to plant the life seed within her womb (mind) and from there, the seed of truth takes on a life of it's own . . .it's all about order.  This is never to say your mind is evil and all of that . .the mind is only a problem when it's being led by the ego instead of the spirit.  But when the mind is in the proper alignment, life is conceived with in it and THEN understanding begins to take root.

If the man forces this seed with out the woman's consent, it's spiritual rape.  There must be submission on the woman's part . . .that's why women are to be silent in the church (what?  Know ye not "you" are the temple. . . .?)  When your mind is silent, your spirit can then receive.  But when your mind demands control . . . the life becomes a stillborn and is aborted.  "Take captive your thoughts . . .2 Corinthians 10"  It's not about control, but instead, it's order that allows us to fulfill that which we've been commissioned to do (reproduce after your own kind)  Reproduction is for the same as rest . .only the mature are to reproduce.

So often, babes lay with the wrong things and are not mature enough to parent that which they give birth to.  We have the ability to give birth, but not the wisdom.  It's no different spiritually.  I sense a momentum happening here . . .pretty cool.  'out of your bellies shall flow RIVERS"  these things just keep flowing more and more, as we continue to walk in the original order more and more. 

There are seasons we go through personal floods . . .the spirit comes in and goes way beyond our established boundaries and his presence washes out all of the deadwood that we've accumulated over time and once the water recedes . . . by God's order, not ours, then our banks are once again are clear to all others to approach our rivers without any obstacles in our nature and personalities . . . may we enter into the room beyond the nurseries and into the masters chamber room where he wishes to become one with his bride so that she may bring forth a sonship through the intimacy with the Son of truth.

Sorry, I get carried away sometimes . . but yes, by all means, never stop reading the Word . . .the spirit "will" bring it to life in us.  It's not a matter of "if" but "when".  God truly longs to reveal the Son to the bride to be.  We simply need to let our original order in him manifest in us . . Spirit, soul, then body.

[Amie]

Nathan (and everyone),

I believe that because of the cross, the authority of the adversary began passing and eventually completely passed, away.  I think that was the system associated with the temple which validated, as you say, "natural reasoning".  It didn't do so like we might find in some churches or religious gatherings, but as an authorized voice of God.  It stood in contrast, as "light bearer" to the truth and was "cast down".

I think that in itself changed reality and henceforth humanity is responding to that new reality.  Without authority, people can claim higher standing, but who is able to part the Red Sea to demonstrate that?  They can only claim it.  They can spiritually abuse others with that "weapon of warfare" yet the only thing revealed of it is the harm itself.  That's because it is a resistance to reality, to the truth, to love imv.

Love has the highest authority, and the promise that the law would be placed in the hearts of humanity that all men may know him has been kept.  (Mind you, I'm just sharing my perspective so that we can get to know one another, not to open an argument or prove anything.) 

I suspect that maybe the metaphor of the "plow shares" was for Israel, in that she labored and toiled until the "seed" (Jesus - the Word of God) was sown.  Jesus being resurrected was identified as "first fruit", as were the body of Christ in the bible.  The purpose of the first fruit offering in the old testament was so the entire harvest would be accepted and blessed by God.  The fire consuming the offering was considered "fire from heaven".  If nothing was left of it, the offering was considered accepted. 

Anyhow, farmers burn their fields to cause the ground to be more fertile as well.  All of that imagry was used in the new testament concerning the burning of the tares and the harvesting of the wheat. 

The first fruits offering was made in a bundle, called a "sheaf". The early church, in whom Jesus literally dwelled and through whom he literally spoke, was bundled with Jesus and also called "first fruits". 

What I'm saying in a very long winded way, lol, is that I think that maybe we are the "leaves for the healing of the nations" - the ground having been tilled, sown, the weeds burned and first fruits accepted by God. 

Just some thoughts,

Amie