Rich man and Lazarus

[WhiteWings]

A parable explains a 'hidden' concept by using an everyday example.
Like the farmer sowing grain on 3 types of soil. Farmers, grain and soil all exits.

But what about the Lazarus and the rich man?
If it's not a parable then hell exists with real fire.
If it is a parable then it tells a story with the real flames of hell as a wel now example.

Can someone please tell me a little more about this type of parable?

[firstborn888]

This is the main 'proof' of a literal hell that some preachers love to use.

But the main problem with an understanding that Jesus is simply referring to what happens to 'lost' and 'saved' people in the afterlife in this parable is that NO MENTION is made about faith in God at all - only that the one man was rich and had a good life and the other was poor and had a terrible life.

The next big clue that it is a parable and not a literal story is the term used: 'Hades' which is the best Greek could do for the Hebrew 'Sheol' (AKA: the grave, the unseen, ie: the generic state of death)

Throughout scripture it is taught that there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in pagan mythology.

The idea of 'two compartments in Sheol' and 'instant reward/punishment' theory did not originally come from the Hebrews or their scriptures at all, but the Pharisees had such a doctrine - probably picked up while the Jews were in captivity to pagan nations. In the Pharisees version - the rich, who were (in their eyes) obviously blessed by God would be carried by angels (also un-scriptural) to their reward in the 'bosom of Abraham' (also a one time mention) while the poor beggars who were (in their eyes) obviously cursed by God were sent into instant fiery torments.

Jesus simply turned their OWN false doctrine upside down on them to show their hypocrisy.

Some have also pointed out that the the name "Lazarus" it is the equivalent of the Hebrew "Eliezer" whom Abraham wished to be the heir of all his riches but he (a gentile) was left out and only got the crumbs. The pharisees identified with the tribe of Judah's kingly stature (hence the purple robe) and riches and considered the gentiles cursed 'dogs' so they KNEW what the parable was about - THEM. In Christ the gentiles received the promises of Abraham and the 'children of the kingdom' were temporarily cast out till the fulness of the gentiles had come in.

[martincisneros]

I've been feeling very strongly for a while that there's only one Lazarus in the 4 Gospels, so that when you've got the raising of Lazarus from the dead in John chapter 11 that you've got the reason over here in this parable in Luke's Gospel.  Although Abraham couldn't do anything about the rich man's cry while he was in torments, he still had a higher authority to consult since all of the families of the earth were to be blessed through him and his Seed.  So, Jesus said what was going on to the particular crowd that would wind up seeing the death of the particular rich man in town and Lazarus. 

Again, being a parable, Lazarus' begging at the rich man's gate didn't have to be literal.  His sores could have been symbolic of life's stress.  The dogs being the only ones having any sympathy could have been neighboring Gentiles, since that was the Jewish Fundamentalist view of Gentiles back then.  Perhaps that was representative of some debt, or some favor that the rich man could give but wouldn't.  And when the two men died, Jesus was mysteriously gone for 4 days for a number of reasons, including dramatic effect of letting His Words really get spread around the community about the situation.  And voila!  Lazarus is raised from the dead 4 days later, and it's a testimony to the elder brothers of where their lives were heading, perhaps literally but definitely figuratively. 

One thing to keep in mind is 2Peter 3 that all things don't continue as they were from the foundation of the world.  There's no reason to believe that if the parable of the rich man and Lazarus needed to be taken literally by the people that Jesus was speaking to, that that same "Hell" would necessarily still be around 'cause of all of the Scriptures that indicate that Jesus emptied out the underworld and has prepared a new heavens and a new earth.  So, something horrific might have been on the horrizon for the rich man's brothers if they died before Jesus died.  And as firstborn888 pointed out, it's also a parable that indicates the taking of the Kingdom of God from the Jews of that day that were unfaithful to the Word and it being given to the Gentiles.

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for the answers. But I've either not understood the answers or my question was not answered.
I know Rich man and Lazarus (RAL) is supposed to be a parables. I'm not asking the meaning of the parable unless it's need for the answer.
I also gave the example of the farmer sowing seed in fertile, rocky and inbetween soil.
Because the parable itself never directly tells what it means it uses common day knowledge that can be grasped by everyone.
In this case (as I understand it) Jesus is the farmer, the seed is the gospel and the soil is how we receive His word.
Or the example of the 1 lost sheep out of a flock of 100. It's not about sheep. The numbers aren't correct either. But it is used to make a concept clear. Now I have 'explained' what all of you know for years lets go back to RAL.

RAL being a parable used common day words to explain a 'mystery'.
However the common day words here are a description of 'classic hell'
Just like that concept is as well understood as the existence of sheep and farmers.

Throughout scripture it is taught that there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in pagan mythology.

Learned something here. I noticed the contradictions but just assumed it was just my lack of understanding. So actually you are saying Jesus was using sarcasm? Jesus was using a well known lie? Part of the lie was conscious.
A little off-topic in my own topic... I've read my old and new topic of this board. If a board member or relative dies the replies often are that person is now enjoying the perfection of heaven. That does sound conscious to me...

I'm not asking an endless list of verses but is that pagan concept of consciousness in the Bible? If not may we use that to back up our claims? To be honest I find it a bit odd that to understand Christianity I first have to study pagan religion.
And the pagans personally listening to Jesus likely have thought: Another parable! Now He confirms consciousness a well know fact of hell. What is the hidden message?

So simply put I find it odd that Jesus tells lies* to explain a truth.
*= probably meant sarcastic. But the the listeners understand that or just got their pagan thoughts confirmed.

[joyful1]

Hello wabbit!
Your question does not seem to be "what is the meaning of this parable?" but rather; "WHY did Jesus speak in parables to the crowds?"

Read it for yourself:
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

Here are a few reasons why I believe that this story is a parable and not a literal historical account of anything at all....I'll leave its interpretation to others because my views may differ from some.

Abraham died--Gen. 25:8-9
Abraham still dead at the time of Jesus telling this parable--John 8:52
Abraham still dead/sleeping, awaiting the resurrection, died in FAITH but not having received YET the promises--Heb. 11
Abraham not in heaven-- John 3:13
Abraham waiting for the city having foundations, whose Artificer and Architect is God (The New Jerusalem) Heb. 11, Rev. 5:10


One of the foundational truths of UR/US is that:
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

But that resurrection has not yet occured. Paul warned about those that claimed that the resurrection had already occured.

II Tim 2:15-18
15 Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.

16 But shun profane babblings: for they will proceed further in ungodliness,

17 and their word will eat as doth a gangrene: or whom is Hymenaeus an Philetus;

18 men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.

One last thought:
I agree with what some have said here in that God does answer us according to the idols of our heart. The religious leaders being addressed had pre-conceived notions about death, hades, and the resurrection, as mentioned above.

Ezekiel 14:4
Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry.

When those idols are destroyed in their hearts, and Jesus alone sits on the throne of their heart, the truth will be made clear to them....in everything.

Luke 11:9
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

sorry for the length!  :icon_flower:
Joyce :)

[firstborn888]

Yes Joyce - a parable is an example, not a literal truth and there is precedent for using pagan stories to make a point - like when Isaiah spoke about a Babylonian king's fall:

"How art thou fallen from heaven
O day-star, son of the morning! (Helel ben Shahar)
How art thou cast down to the ground,
That didst cast lots over the nations!

The actual Hebrew text says הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar."

Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.

Helel was the god of the morning star and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning."

In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, referring the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing Babylon's own mythological accounts of the planet Venus' fall from grace from among the gods.

Obviously Isaiah did not believe in this pagan god but used the story as an example.

BTW Joyce - it would be nice to hear what you've seen in rich man and Lazarus parable.

[WhiteWings]

Hello wabbit!
Your question does not seem to be "what is the meaning of this parable?" but rather; "WHY did Jesus speak in parables to the crowds?"

Not even that.
The question is why Jesus used lies (the pagan concept is a lie) to explain something.

[joyful1]

Oh good grief, wabbit!  :laughing7:
Parables are not lies. Parables are stories. Parables are not meant to be taken literally! If they WERE meant to be taken that way....then you could say: Jesus lied.

They are not and He didn't.
Joyce :)

[WhiteWings]

I'm not saying parables are lies!
But consciousness for the dead is lie. (pagan belief) Right.
In that sense Jesus used a lie to explain/tell His parable....
Just like when He had used pink flying elephants to explain something.

Got it?  :laughing7:

[Roy Monis]

This is the main 'proof' of a literal hell that some preachers love to use.

But the main problem with an understanding that Jesus is simply referring to what happens to 'lost' and 'saved' people in the afterlife in this parable is that NO MENTION is made about faith in God at all - only that the one man was rich and had a good life and the other was poor and had a terrible life.

The next big clue that it is a parable and not a literal story is the term used: 'Hades' which is the best Greek could do for the Hebrew 'Sheol' (AKA: the grave, the unseen, ie: the generic state of death)

Throughout scripture it is taught that there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in pagan mythology.

The idea of 'two compartments in Sheol' and 'instant reward/punishment' theory did not originally come from the Hebrews or their scriptures at all, but the Pharisees had such a doctrine - probably picked up while the Jews were in captivity to pagan nations. In the Pharisees version - the rich, who were (in their eyes) obviously blessed by God would be carried by angels (also un-scriptural) to their reward in the 'bosom of Abraham' (also a one time mention) while the poor beggars who were (in their eyes) obviously cursed by God were sent into instant fiery torments.

Jesus simply turned their OWN false doctrine upside down on them to show their hypocrisy.

Some have also pointed out that the the name "Lazarus" it is the equivalent of the Hebrew "Eliezer" whom Abraham wished to be the heir of all his riches but he (a gentile) was left out and only got the crumbs. The pharisees identified with the tribe of Judah's kingly stature (hence the purple robe) and riches and considered the gentiles cursed 'dogs' so they KNEW what the parable was about - THEM. In Christ the gentiles received the promises of Abraham and the 'children of the kingdom' were temporarily cast out till the fulness of the gentiles had come in.

Some have also pointed out that the the name "Lazarus" it is the equivalent of the Hebrew "Eliezer" whom Abraham wished to be the heir of all his riches but he (a gentile) was left out and only got the crumbs. The pharisees identified with the tribe of Judah's kingly stature (hence the purple robe) and riches and considered the gentiles cursed 'dogs' so they KNEW what the parable was about - THEM. In Christ the gentiles received the promises of Abraham and the 'children of the kingdom' were temporarily cast out till the fulness of the gentiles had come in.

Hi! firstborn888

Spot on, brother, and it is a very fascinating parable to book and one of the most difficult to interpret. I could post the full interpretation here but it would be too long for an email. If it were possible to send an attachment, then it could be done, but I don't know if that facility is available here. If it is show me how and I'll post it.

Yes Lazarus is Abraham's faithful gentile servant who would have inherited his master's possessions had Ishmael or Isaac not been born seeing that both Abraham and Sarah were well past reproductive age before they were born.

Peace!

(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)
Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

A parable explains a 'hidden' concept by using an everyday example.
Like the farmer sowing grain on 3 types of soil. Farmers, grain and soil all exits.

But what about the Lazarus and the rich man?
If it's not a parable then hell exists with real fire.
If it is a parable then it tells a story with the real flames of hell as a wel now example.

Can someone please tell me a little more about this type of parable?

Hi! WhiteWings

If it will help brother, I'll try and send you the full explanation of it in a PM. Hopefully it will arrive in one piece, but it is very long. Worth a try in any case as it is very interesting.

Peace!(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)

Roy   UK

[WhiteWings]

Roy, you can upload files and then post the link here.
http://www.fast-files.com/


Altough all info is good to read my post is not about:
- If it's a parable or not
- The meaning of it.

Both Rays and Garys site (among others) have lengthy explanations on it.

[joyful1]

You've brought up a good point, actually, wabbit. I've PM'd some thoughts on the whole heaven issue. But what I'd like to address is your post that seems to say: Jesus lied by answering the religious leaders at the time according to the idols of their hearts. I've often looked at the sarcasm displayed in some of Jesus' upbraidments of the Pharisees and Sadducees as just that: sarcasm. But He may have been using phrases like "you vipers, you snakes" as alluding to the fact that He knew they'd been spiritually fathered by the serpent! I only see Jesus getting close to being in a rage when religious people hurt His flock or blasphemed His Father. But answering them the way He chose to was His prerogative. They knew the law, but didn't keep it....and yet demanded that the flock keep it!

When I would get a "smarty pants" answer from one of my kids, I'd often just put it back in their court by simply saying something like; "okay, you know it all! You are right and I am wrong!"
But my kids KNEW that I was NOT LYING to them....I was being sarcastic to get my point across and they'd run for cover after that!
I can't prove to you that this is the way Jesus was dealing with these immature men, but it might be that way. I may be missing an important point here that others see clearly, I don't know. :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

But what I'd like to address is your post that seems to say: Jesus lied by answering the religious leaders at the time according to the idols of their hearts. I've often looked at the sarcasm displayed in some of Jesus' upbraidments of the Pharisees and Sadducees as just that: sarcasm.

So Jesus also used sarcasm in His ministry? Something for me to take into account. That at least clears up things.
Actually I had to look up that word. I never heard of the concept of sarcasm....  :wink:

But He may have been using phrases like "you vipers, you snakes" as alluding to the fact that He knew they'd been spiritually fathered by the serpent!

Yes. Snake is a 'official Biblical concept'. And it are real life animals that are feared and looked negative upon.
So a good base for a parable.

When I would get a "smarty pants" answer from one of my kids, I'd often just put it back in their court by simply saying something like; "okay, you know it all! You are right and I am wrong!"

Yer very right for once mummy!  :thumbsup:  :laughing7:

[DeeDee]

Yes, I too noticed today how many ET supporting websites use this specific scripture to dismiss all UR related scripture. It is a very fascinating subject. Are there any other links here on Tentmaker to this specific topic?

[WhiteWings]

Not only to teach ET but more.

One part of that place was Paradise (=good but not as good a Heaven)
The other part is semi-hell (not as bad as the Lake of Fire)
When Jesus died he sorta instantly went to the 1 or both parts to preach.
Jesus emptied the Paradise side to taking all to Heaven.
Nowadays all good go directly to Heaven.
The others go to that hell.



I have a quite extensive .pdf about this subject.
Complete with drawings and verses to support it.
Ask if interested.

[DeeDee]

K I am interested. Pls send it to me. Thanks

Blessings
Dee

[Pierac]

There are some good articles on this site too. Here's one....

http://tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm

Paul

[rosered]

  Why did Jesus tell stories  instead of just saying it Plain ,The Truth ? 
is that what you ask bro ?   Jesus  told us that it is not for  everyone to know the mysteries bro  just certain ones , chosen by Him for a specific purpose  in God ,
   Lazurus  means whom God helps , to me  He alone has mercy on who ever He choses and hardens  those  hearts [ ground for seed sowing ]
as He sees fit , so  many arguments over the  sovereignty of Gods will 

  the thing is to me that makes me wonder the most about it , He knows our hearts  and we dont know our  hearts at all !  and it would be like entrusting  a LITTLE child with a big sword [GODS WORD ]  and they  would do more harm than good to themselves and others around them , so many do  , And do just that~~~~!!!!!!
MAKING THEM NOT ACCOUNTABLE [trUST IS A BIG DEAL WITH GOD you must prove yourself /be tested and grow in Truth and grace ]


To me very few are chosen  , and many are called , but flub up  big time , and they loose what they think  they had !  , thats scripture as well
  making Gods word true and every man a liar  :sigh:in all the stories , we see.. but dont really see HIM

Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

  we are weak and powerless  over most things  that happen in life/death

and to me it is learning to Trust  God in both life and death   that it will work out for the  best for all concerned , just as the scriptures states

  loving God first than your neighbour as yourself 
wanting them to have  what you have  too ...which is  hope and His Spirit and Life within you breathing life to others  as well

   hope this helps  you some how ?

[WhiteWings]

  Why did Jesus tell stories  instead of just saying it Plain ,The Truth ? 
is that what you ask bro ?   

Nope sis.

The parables of Jesus always contain things that really exist.
The 100 sheep and 1 sheep of them is lost.
Sheep exist.
But if the parable used 100 Gods then that would use a lie as an example. Just because there is only 1 God.
RaL uses a none existing hell as an example.
Hell is a lie.
So Jesus uses a lie to teach something.
In an earlier post it was mentioned that Jesus frequently used sarcasm. Or debunk them with their own pagan examples.
That I can accept. :thumbsup:

[rosered]

LOL ,, OK Bro ,
i know  that God  send strong delusion   that they believe a lie as well .. because they did not love the Truth /which is none other than Jesus Christ     hummmm ??and this  chapter of Job 12 is awesome  and always  comforted me some how  , now I know why   here it is 
  Job spoke with integrity  and said what is right

Job 12:16 With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his. He leadeth counsellors away spoiled, and maketh the judges fools.

in its entirety , it is to good to let pass by ............
Job 12
Job Chides His Accusers
1Then Job responded,
    2"Truly then you are the people,
         And with you wisdom will die!
    3"But I have intelligence as well as you;
         I am not inferior to you.
         And who does not know such things as these?
    4"I am a joke to my friends,
         The one who called on God and He answered him;
         The just and blameless man is a joke.
    5"He who is at ease holds calamity in contempt,
         As prepared for those whose feet slip.
    6"The tents of the destroyers prosper,
         And those who provoke God are secure,
         Whom God brings into their power.
    7"But now ask the beasts, and let them teach you;
         And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you.
    8"Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you;
         And let the fish of the sea declare to you.
    9"Who among all these does not know
         That the hand of the LORD has done this,
    10In whose hand is the life of every living thing,
         And the breath of all mankind?
    11"Does not the ear test words,
         As the palate tastes its food?
    12"Wisdom is with aged men,
         With long life is understanding.
Job Speaks of the Power of God
    13"With Him are wisdom and might;
         To Him belong counsel and understanding.
    14"Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt;
         He imprisons a man, and there can be no release.
    15"Behold, He restrains the waters, and they dry up;
         And He sends them out, and they inundate the earth.
    16"With Him are strength and sound wisdom,
         The misled and the misleader belong to Him.
    17"He makes counselors walk barefoot
         And makes fools of judges.
    18"He loosens the bond of kings
         And binds their loins with a girdle.
    19"He makes priests walk barefoot
         And overthrows the secure ones.
    20"He deprives the trusted ones of speech
         And takes away the discernment of the elders.
    21"He pours contempt on nobles
         And loosens the belt of the strong.
    22"He reveals mysteries from the darkness
         And brings the deep darkness into light.
    23"He makes the nations great, then destroys them;
         He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
    24"He deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people
         And makes them wander in a pathless waste.
    25"They grope in darkness with no light,
         And He makes them stagger like a drunken man. 

wow , its not the devil , its the Lord that makes these things BE !!!

[DeeDee]

Okay maybe I just read that pdf. wrong (that WhiteWings sent me) but to me it supports ET. In a very convincing way actually.  :dontknow:

[firstborn888]

Okay maybe I just read that pdf. wrong (that WhiteWings sent me) but to me it supports ET. In a very convincing way actually.  :dontknow:

I think what he sent you is the traditional church doctrine (two compartments in sheol etc.) That was exactly my point - they have built an entire theological structure on one parable which contradicts all we know about Hades/Sheol.

[WhiteWings]

Okay maybe I just read that pdf. wrong (that WhiteWings sent me) but to me it supports ET. In a very convincing way actually.  :dontknow:

Or takes it out of context....
But is that really true?
The document is about what happens when Jesus dies and then a few more days.
It's not mainly a ET proof.
Ok many here won't agree about the good people already being in heaven right now.
Plus a few more things like that.
The hell messages in that document are also discussed on TM
There they are lets call it debunked.

[DeeDee]

There they are lets call it debunked

What do you mean?