Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

[WhiteWings]

But what exactly does 'draw' mean.

God can pull with the force of a hundred elephants. That's irresistible. A command.
God can also pull with the force of a hamster. Easy to withstand; but still drawing. A suggestion.

Sorry to be a cut and paster, but I believe that all flesh of the whole human race shall be resurrected (of life or damnation), all shall bend their knee and call Jesus Christ Lord. And there shall really be no choice in the matter, it just shall be. But, as Irenaeus, I believe that after that, is when the judgement takes place, it is important to keep everything in order:

I'm not questioning "every knee shall bow"
Neither am I questioning the 'draw'
I'm just asking about the force of the draw during life.
Unescapeble or just a friendly suggestion?

[Nathan]

I will read what you wrote with care, but I wanted to comment on this.   My point about scripture isn't about my flavor.  After I read what you have pasted, do you think it wise that I take you at your word that it is scripturally correct?

No, trust no one . .that's what Jesus taught . .don't walk according to what you can't see . .only according to what you can.  Walking in faith?  That was just a distraction.

[martincisneros]

Ever wonder why Baptist churches don't break out in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues???

Many have and are, as the outpouring is intensifying leading up to the millenium.  And you're right about the evidence, inspite of what arcticmonster2003 said about 1Corinthians 12:30  "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

because that Scripture is talking about ministry operations.  Not all operate in gifts of healings or in the speaking of other tongues and interpretation of tongues for the edification of an assembly.  But people want to make the baptism in their own image these days rather than to take Acts and St. Paul's epistles at face value and rightly divide where the gifts are concerned.  Most haven't scrutinized the epistles closely enough to realize that St. Paul had as much or more to say about the gifts as he did about our redemption.  There's not a gift of the Spirit that was manifested in his ministry that he didn't teach exactly how to function in it, including his leave the body in the dungeon and visit the Churches I'm responsible for anyway(!!) type of escapades.

The Holy Spirit is not a fruit barer.  The Holy Spirit's not going to be scrutinized in that Day.  The Holy Spirit's already perfect and feels zero pressure from persecution, needs, etc. The manifestation of love and the fruit of the recreated human spirit aren't evidences of the baptism with the Holy Spirit even though it's popular to try to say that unScriptural assertion.  Love and whatever else are simply evidence of a healthy spiritual life that's partaking richly of the Word daily, being a doer of the Word and not a hearer only, and is in a context of fellowship where the Word of God is being spoken with richness moment by moment, and the Bread and Cup are being partaken of as often as is possible.  You can be healthy spiritually and progressively yeilding more and more of your life to the Word and still not be baptized with the Holy Spirit which was always about supernatural power for service.  Quite a few throughout Church history have received the baptism without having been the least bit willing to speak in other tongues, though they did anyway, but they were so submitted to the Word or to the Bread and Cup (as the historical context would indicate, case by case) that Jesus in His High Priestly ministry just pulled them forward into everything that they needed to meet the needs of as many people as their hearts and their faith had capacity for, as well as to be able to endure persecution when it came from loved ones or others with the biggest smile and with their words seasoned with grace because they were fortunate enough to be able to partake in the fellowship of His sufferings.

But the power to endure wasn't the baptism, and it wasn't the Holy Spirit's fruit.  It was the Kingdom within them that was being nurtured daily in their worship time and in their encounters with the living Jesus.  The power is separate and distinct.  It's the power to meet any need.  A believer doesn't live on the power of the Holy Spirit.  Through the Word of God and the Bread and Cup they're supposed to be living on their own fruit as they're bringing crops to harvest with the seed of the Kingdom being in their heart and in their mouth.  The power of the Kingdom, as evidenced by speaking in other tongues, is about helping others in every way that would please our heavenly Father for you to be able to help them that day, from insight to making sure they're eating and clothed today even when in the natural perspective you wouldn't have it to give to them.  The power is always about multiplying resources, whether it's resources of wisdom and knowledge of the Kingdom or the multiplication of healing, bread, and money.

By saying that it's the fruit of our recreated spirit rather than the Holy Spirit's fruit, I'm not negating God's part in it because one plants, another waters, and it's God that gives the increase.  Jesus in His High Priestly ministry, according to 2Corinthians 9 still gives the multiplied fruits of your righteousness by speaking His Word of blessing right over your growing fruit as it's approaching time for harvest so that all of your needs are met and so you can continue to invest into the Kingdom's operations where other people are concerned.  The fruit and the gifts easily run parallel in a lot of ways, to where I can understand the confusion for some people, but the Scriptures do distinctly divide the two.  Like the "gift of faith" for instance.  That's not the same as the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.  That's Jesus in His High Priestly ministry adding His faith to yours to complete a transaction where some area of the miraculous is needed in a given situation to minister to others, or to fully step through into your own personal Jubilee as the old man is being put off and the new man is being put on -- along with all of his resources.  Given enough time and enough knowledge, your own faith would have done it on it's own, because there's not a single promise of the Word whose substance hasn't already been invested in you when you were born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed.  Jesus just used His jumper cables to speed things along in His grace and mercy, because nothing can ever separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'm really leery of the idea of there being no free will, because without free will there is no such thing as honor, integrity, worship, and an offering to the Lord.  God's not going to force you to be honest with me.  Free will as far as I'm concerned comes down to honor and integrity too easily 97% of the time.  There's lots of room for discussing how far our power of choice extends, and the fact that it definitively doesn't include the power to self damn or to damn others throughout all of eternity.

[martincisneros]

I'm not questioning "every knee shall bow"
Neither am I questioning the 'draw'
I'm just asking about the force of the draw during life.
Unescapeble or just a friendly suggestion?

The Greek word for "draw" where Jesus said "And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth will draw all men to Myself" actually means to "drag."  There are many names for God in the Old Testament Hebrew text that often just pass into English as God, including the idea of God the warrior and related ideas.  Interesting how every knee bows and every tongue confesses that the Anointed Saviour is Lord to the glory of God the Father.  When every knee bows and every tongue confesses, they're essentially saying to Christ "you're my only Saviour!!"  They're not admitting to having been defeated, or shamed, or vanquished as in the Calvinist idea about it.  They're simply fulfilling the prophecy in Isaiah where all will admit that in the Lord alone they have righteousness and strength.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm really leery of the idea of there being no free will, because without free will there is no such thing as honor, integrity, worship, and an offering to the Lord.  God's not going to force you to be honest with me.  Free will as far as I'm concerned comes down to honor and integrity too easily 97% of the time.  There's lots of room for discussing how far our power of choice extends, and the fact that it definitively doesn't include the power to self damn or to damn others throughout all of eternity.

The idea of free-will within those who believe it is possible to be eternally separated / damned/ tortured, etc has  to do with the concept of our human interaction.  They are really saying that we can only truly love God if we choose undetermined by anything but ourselves to accept Christ as Savior.


For instance,   Buying friends,  someone has a lot of money, they spend money on people and they call that person friend.  He wants to believe that if they really are friends then it would not matter of you had a dime to your name.  So He wants friends who of their own free will come to call Him friend and not due to what you have to offer them monetarily.   But then is it only monetary things.  Emotional co dependance is another.  A friend calls someone a friend, but is only considered a friend because they can always give advise at every crisis,  what happens when that person can no longer offer advise that can help?


So,  if man is not self determinate according to the end result of what God is going to do, then does it really matter in the end that in the middle we can point out all this freedom?

What honor and integrity is really of ourselves if God is not allowing us self determination?

I am not saying we cannot have honor and integrity without a free will, I am saying we can, due to the will that we have been given by God,  just not by our standards.

[WhiteWings]

I know the word drag; but I'm not sure I know teh full meaning of it (in this context)

Does it mean that the one being dragged resists?
In aviation drag is a force that pulls the plane backward. Some sort of resistance.

[martincisneros]

Does it mean that the one being dragged resists?
In aviation drag is a force that pulls the plane backward. Some sort of resistance.

Don't we all, at least emotionally, resist what we don't understand?  In our own eyes, we're so often just little ants by comparison to Him.  And here's infinite love approaching year after year saying "I'm really not going to step on you! I love you, I need you, and I've prepared a place for you alongside of Me."  After the resurrection of Jesus, in St. Paul's epistles our resistance, our rebellion, and our wickedness is our system of thinking.  2Corinthians 4, Ephesians 2, Ephesians 4, etc., etc., etc.  It's so often what's going on in our heads that's having to be cast down and brought to the obedience of Christ, according to 2Corinthians 10.  It's so often our minds that are so easily lacking in peace and rest, according to Philippians 4 and 1Peter 5.  His warfare right now is with every system of thinking that's not His own.  And as you know, on certain subjects, people can get nasty about how right they think that they are! :laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I know the word drag; but I'm not sure I know teh full meaning of it (in this context)

Does it mean that the one being dragged resists?
In aviation drag is a force that pulls the plane backward. Some sort of resistance.

The potter and the clay.

The potter encounters resistance when forming an object ,  the potter will make it into a wonder of beauty despite that resistance.    The potter literally drags the clay where it needs to go.  The resistance is a necessary part of the formation of the object.


My personal view of our will is its ability to understand and accept the object we are being formed into and to retain that shape.    In this case I cannot say I can really back that up with scripture yet.  Just making sure that is known.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Martincisneros

The manifestation of love and the fruit of the recreated human spirit aren't evidences of the baptism with the Holy Spirit even though it's popular to try to say that unScriptural assertion.

I wish you wouldn't say that showing the fruits of the Holy Spirit as evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit is unscriptural, though you completely took that statement and turned it into a different statement saying instead the recreated human spirit showing fruits, thus confusing what I am even trying to write here, because to me it is (the fruits of the Holy Spirit show as evidence of the Holy Spirit) scriptural. We disagree on much in the scriputures, including on the matter of universalism. :Sparkletooth:

However, I do understand that I often, also, state my views on the scriptures as facts, calling other peoples views on them unscriptural, thats what I did in my earlier post to Nathan in a way, so maybe I'm just getting it back a little. :sigh:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Nathan,

I have read what you wrote, I would like to clarify what seems to be a wall between us when it comes to what we expect from others.

I have done very well on other forums connecting a gap between those who reject the bible, but believe there is a God.  I have not done this on my own, this is a place where I have never been before in my travels with God.  God through that has caused a few people to rethink their theology, has caused them to crack open a bible and take a peek.

I challenge traditional Christianity because I believe it has become a place where people learn to worship themselves while believing they honor God at the same time.  I believe that error of their ways has clouded almost any doctrine they preach with the exception of Jesus being our Savior.   But beyond that, human power and self determination clouds anything else they try to say, even the manner in which Christ is our Savior.


I challenge the people who believe they have disproved God only to reveal that they have disproved the religious traditions of men as nonsense and nothing more.   I challenge the mystics that they deal more in emotion than sense.

I have done this without quoting one scripture, but I do not hide the fact that the bible is my guiding light.  We have to be careful in this manner, we have to continually make sure we do not contradict.   Do we need scripture to tell us that contradiction brings question to the validity of an idea?  No.   It is a very tough road for me to do this, because I am used to verifying and posting the spiritual relationship to the literal word.  So I have to study even more to make sure that as I try to inspire the Love of God in people I am not reliquishing my responsibility of correctness to appeal to someone who doesn't want to read the bible in the first place.   I do not challenge people who do not read the bible to demonstrate their ideas with scripture.  However, it is not unreasonable to expect those who agree that the whole bible is the inspired word of God to demonstrate their ideas through scripture.  It is however, unreasonable, in my opinion, for those same people to declare that they can be scripturally correct without a scriptural demonstration of the same.

Christianity poses this particular problem as I have noticed it in the last 5 years of my time in the church.   A minister gives his summation and point about something.  I see it consistantly as follows, 

1.Statement,  backing scripture"
2."Statement, backing scripture"
3."Statement, backing scripture"
4. "The climax of the point which is almost always about  mans power of self determination...  No backing scripture"

It is deception whether by design or ignorance, I do not care, These minsters seem to believe that being scripturally solid up to the final point causes that point to inherantly not require validation.   

With that said, I will focus upon something specific in your writing.

Reading the Word . .literally . .applying it . .literally . .is no longer effective as it once was . . .because God is leading us into the person of rest . . .away from our days of works and labor.  Same Word, same outcome, different process.  When revelating in Truth, we're to see what lies beneath.  Scripture never says Goliath is the carnal man and the cutting off of his head is to resemble how we're to come to Christ . . .headless . . .  and it "won't" say it.  People . . .on this forum even . .have come against our efforts to share on a revelatory manner due to the fact that we're not proving ourselves with Scripture and verse of everything we're seeing.

While I do know that we can know things beyond  the literal scriptural word.  Asking someone to verify this with scripture is something we should be able to do.   It does not matter if the person sees what you see, it is a verification that your point of view attempts to not contradict.

For instance,  Isaiah 45:7  It really doesn't matter the deeper and greater spiritual meaning that is unspoken in the literal word.  The spiritual depth of knowledge will still not change the fact that God says he created evil.   There is nothing deeper that will make it say, God did not create evil.   

I have also related things of science in relationship to scripture, but not in the sense of Creation.  In the sense of what spirit is.   I have related energy to the spirit of God.  This has gotten both Atheists and Christians alike to show real fits of anger as the atheists seemed to hate that I was using their platform to deny God as a demonstration of Him and Christians because I used a so called invention of man instead of scripture.   I will not detail it in this thread, but my analogies are as well thought out as anyone could I suppose and I parallel them with scripture as best I could possibly know before implementing those things in what I write.

Nathan,  if I am one who,  to you,  seems to try to suppress someone expressing deeper and more spiritual meanings to the literal word, that is not my intention.

However, please understand that I hold two scriptures sacred for taking the path to build gaps between those who are spiritual and those who rely on the word for the sake of communication and expressing Love for the savior.

1. Titus 1:9 upholding the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able to entreat with sound teaching as well as to expose those who contradict.

2.Peter 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear

I do not say this with any intention of slighting you or to deter you from speaking your mind or your heart.  I say this as a brother with a reminder to gaurd against straying from the word.  To gaurd against believing that there is anything spiritual that will come to us from God that will change, alter, add or subtract from the written word God has preserved for us in this age of life.   I am CERTAIN that the bible does not contain all there is to know about God, I am also certain that in this life of physical carnal existance that we will not ascend to a higher level of learning that will make the bible of no use.

The real danger of the so called "new age" movement is the belief that spirituality is something that can be modernized by young people with new ideas that could possibly make the written word of God less useful under the guise of its age and the culture that it was written in.   It is placing ones own desire to be credited with an idea above the scriptural path it should take to glorify God.


I ask you take this in a manner of Good will which is it's intention.  My apologies if I was inadequate in my attempt.


Paul

[Molly]

It is the human perception of force that causes difficulty in believing that we actually have to give God permission to work in our lives.   He does not require our permission.  Nor does he only work in us and through us at our discretion.

John 6:44

G1670  helkuo  hel-koo'-o

or helko hel'-ko;

probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. Compare
G1667.

well, but here--when Jesus is going about healing people--look what he does--




47And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.

48And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.

49And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.

50And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.

51And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
--Mark 10



Why would Jesus ask a blind man what he wanted if not to require the man to state his petition?  The blind man has to ask specifically for what he wants, and then his faith heals him.

It's an interesting interaction, almost as if Jesus can do nothing for this particular blind man unless the man asks to receive his sight.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have also found it interesting that the account of the man with the unclean spirits that Jesus honored the request of the demons.

I honestly have not come to a complete conclusion to what this means.  I think the message here is broader than just a blind man receiving sight.  The literal Greek says, "your faith has saved you"   We know that God gives us faith through grace, not of ourselves.

Is Jesus question really a statement of asking or is it an emphasis of the obvious?   Doesn't mankind the blind, the broken, the angry, everyone, no matter how much someone says they hate God,  do we all not want to be whole?   To be saved in hope of this wretched world?

How is this to come about?

[CHB]

I honestly have not come to a complete conclusion to what this means.  I think the message here is broader than just a blind man receiving sight.  The literal Greek says, "your faith has saved you"   We know that God gives us faith through grace, not of ourselves.

Hi Paul,

This is just the way I see this, nothing concrete.

At the time, the world had no savior and Israel was under the law, I believe this is the answer. After Christ was crucified things changed, it was no longer our faith but Christ's faith that saved us.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

Thanks CHB,  I will take that into consideration.

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

I have read what you wrote, I would like to clarify what seems to be a wall between us when it comes to what we expect from others.

I have done very well on other forums connecting a gap between those who reject the bible, but believe there is a God.  I have not done this on my own, this is a place where I have never been before in my travels with God.  God through that has caused a few people to rethink their theology, has caused them to crack open a bible and take a peek.

I challenge traditional Christianity because I believe it has become a place where people learn to worship themselves while believing they honor God at the same time.  I believe that error of their ways has clouded almost any doctrine they preach with the exception of Jesus being our Savior.   But beyond that, human power and self determination clouds anything else they try to say, even the manner in which Christ is our Savior.


I challenge the people who believe they have disproved God only to reveal that they have disproved the religious traditions of men as nonsense and nothing more.   I challenge the mystics that they deal more in emotion than sense.

I have done this without quoting one scripture, but I do not hide the fact that the bible is my guiding light.  We have to be careful in this manner, we have to continually make sure we do not contradict.   Do we need scripture to tell us that contradiction brings question to the validity of an idea?  No.   It is a very tough road for me to do this, because I am used to verifying and posting the spiritual relationship to the literal word.  So I have to study even more to make sure that as I try to inspire the Love of God in people I am not reliquishing my responsibility of correctness to appeal to someone who doesn't want to read the bible in the first place.   I do not challenge people who do not read the bible to demonstrate their ideas with scripture.  However, it is not unreasonable to expect those who agree that the whole bible is the inspired word of God to demonstrate their ideas through scripture.  It is however, unreasonable, in my opinion, for those same people to declare that they can be scripturally correct without a scriptural demonstration of the same.

Christianity poses this particular problem as I have noticed it in the last 5 years of my time in the church.   A minister gives his summation and point about something.  I see it consistantly as follows, 

1.Statement,  backing scripture"
2."Statement, backing scripture"
3."Statement, backing scripture"
4. "The climax of the point which is almost always about  mans power of self determination...  No backing scripture"

It is deception whether by design or ignorance, I do not care, These minsters seem to believe that being scripturally solid up to the final point causes that point to inherantly not require validation.   

With that said, I will focus upon something specific in your writing.

Reading the Word . .literally . .applying it . .literally . .is no longer effective as it once was . . .because God is leading us into the person of rest . . .away from our days of works and labor.  Same Word, same outcome, different process.  When revelating in Truth, we're to see what lies beneath.  Scripture never says Goliath is the carnal man and the cutting off of his head is to resemble how we're to come to Christ . . .headless . . .  and it "won't" say it.  People . . .on this forum even . .have come against our efforts to share on a revelatory manner due to the fact that we're not proving ourselves with Scripture and verse of everything we're seeing.

While I do know that we can know things beyond  the literal scriptural word.  Asking someone to verify this with scripture is something we should be able to do.   It does not matter if the person sees what you see, it is a verification that your point of view attempts to not contradict.

For instance,  Isaiah 45:7  It really doesn't matter the deeper and greater spiritual meaning that is unspoken in the literal word.  The spiritual depth of knowledge will still not change the fact that God says he created evil.   There is nothing deeper that will make it say, God did not create evil.   

I have also related things of science in relationship to scripture, but not in the sense of Creation.  In the sense of what spirit is.   I have related energy to the spirit of God.  This has gotten both Atheists and Christians alike to show real fits of anger as the atheists seemed to hate that I was using their platform to deny God as a demonstration of Him and Christians because I used a so called invention of man instead of scripture.   I will not detail it in this thread, but my analogies are as well thought out as anyone could I suppose and I parallel them with scripture as best I could possibly know before implementing those things in what I write.

Nathan,  if I am one who,  to you,  seems to try to suppress someone expressing deeper and more spiritual meanings to the literal word, that is not my intention.

However, please understand that I hold two scriptures sacred for taking the path to build gaps between those who are spiritual and those who rely on the word for the sake of communication and expressing Love for the savior.

1. Titus 1:9 upholding the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able to entreat with sound teaching as well as to expose those who contradict.

2.Peter 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear

I do not say this with any intention of slighting you or to deter you from speaking your mind or your heart.  I say this as a brother with a reminder to gaurd against straying from the word.  To gaurd against believing that there is anything spiritual that will come to us from God that will change, alter, add or subtract from the written word God has preserved for us in this age of life.   I am CERTAIN that the bible does not contain all there is to know about God, I am also certain that in this life of physical carnal existance that we will not ascend to a higher level of learning that will make the bible of no use.

The real danger of the so called "new age" movement is the belief that spirituality is something that can be modernized by young people with new ideas that could possibly make the written word of God less useful under the guise of its age and the culture that it was written in.   It is placing ones own desire to be credited with an idea above the scriptural path it should take to glorify God.


I ask you take this in a manner of Good will which is it's intention.  My apologies if I was inadequate in my attempt.


Paul

Wow.  Paul this is the best explanation you could possibly give.  Thank you and I appreciate your heart.  I have been distracted and emotionally irritated by the distraction of others that it's possibly affected my attitude when reading other responses.  Once you get bit by a Mosquito, you almost swing at anything that moves . .thinking it to is a mosquito.  You're post was most humbling.  I'll lay the fly-swatter down now.  If you haven't already, take a stroll over to the other thread I put out . . .I'm not all that proud of the second response I wrote, but my heart is in the first.

My style is one of freedom . .never used to be . . .I was just as religious and conforming as the next guy . .but I found myself standing with John in Revelation . . .God was revealing Jesus Christ to him . .but he was facing the wrong way.  I had been facing the wrong way for years. .I lived by the letter of the Word for years.  People do conclude from time to time as you have, that I am saying the Bible has lost it's truth.  But that couldn't be further from the Truth.  I still embrace the Word . . .but not at the surface of what's being said.  Jesus said his words are "spirit".  If that's the case, then I can't continue to embrace what's on the surface, but still, I need to read the surface in order to identify what lies beneath.

Revelation comes "through" the Word.  But only when you're willing to let go of your "knowledge" of the Word and pursue the spiritual understanding.  Otherwise, it's no different than the manna of old . . . it's just yesterday's bread that now is rotten and has maggots . . .which is a sign of death and decay.

This is why I sound like I do and say what I do . . .we are no longer of a levitical priesthood . .but we are of a "royal" priesthood.  And yet so many continue to embrace the Bible from a Levitical perspective.  The people it was written to were essentially, spiritual infants.  So, when I embrace it now . . . literally as it was written to them, I am embracing the inability to mature into spiritual adulthood.  We want to go deeper in Christ but won't let go of the surface of his Word.

Sorry . .didn't mean to preach.  I thank you for your heart bro, I am truly impressed by your post.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Nathan,  thank you for your explanation.  I personally agree with what you wrote and will work to keep in the direction of edification as bothers.   

[Molly]

The blind man in the above story (Mark 10) is both called and chosen.


Called--

49And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.



Chosen--

And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole.


He's now able to follow Jesus--


And, immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.