Who shall separate us from the :HeartThrob: love :HeartThrob: of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35-39)
Greetings to all at the Tent :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:
I just love this portion of scripture, and all of chapter eight. It's such a powerful promise. Paul was thoroughly convinced that nothing, no really - NOTHING can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rest in this wonderful promise.
But I'm writing this to vent, as I have no one to talk with about such things. Comments are welcome. I've mentioned in earlier post that I still attend an AG church for reasons that I won't go into right now. Anyway, for obvious reasons it's very difficult for me to be the lone believer in a succesful Savior (you know - the Savior of the world who really did save the world) When everyone says "Amen", I say, "that can't be right!!!" But I keep my mouth shut - for now. :msealed: The worse thing is that AG churches don't just believe in ET, they emphasize it and preach it. We are constantly threatened with eternal hell for not saying the Sinner's Prayer We are also threatened with instant death "You could walk out of here and get hit by a truck!!" :omg: (As if Almighty God has no control over what happens to you) When I attended a Baptist church and grace-type church the subject of hell rarely even came up, and when it did, you got the feeling that the folks there only believed in hell in an academic/doctrinal sense.
This is what happened this past Sunday. Well, two things - first the pastor said something like, "God will never go against your free will" I immediately thought of Paul getting knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and Jonah, whose "free will" wanted to take him to Taursus. Then, Peter, whose was quick to tell Jesus, "I'll never deny you (because it's my free will not to deny you)" Also Pharoh, who the Lord raised up to fulfill His plan, and so on. I also thought about how every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord - and the traditional interpretation that most of them will be "forced to do it - and then cast into the Lake of Fire!!!" (So God won't oppose our free will when it will save us, but He will force us to worship Him against our will when it's too late???? :dontknow: )
But I'm used to hearing stuff like that. What really bothered me was this. The pastor read part of the scripture I quoted above and then added. "There is something that can separate you from the love of God - it's your free will" :Yeahright: So let me get this straight - you say that something can separate us from the love of God, and Paul says that nothing can separate us from the love of God? Hmmm....who should I believe, the Bible or the preacher? By adding to the word, the preacher completely negated and contradicted everything Paul wrote in Romans chapter eight.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but this is really bothering me. All day long I've been saying to myself "How could he say that?"
The ego wants you to believe it's more powerful than God. That's basically what your Pastor is saying. My mind can over-ride the power of the cross . . .that's just sad.
We obviously do have freedom to choose, just not our eternal end, that has already been "predestined". Funny you'll hear about people having a "divine appointment" which means that as they look back, they can see how God orchestrated things in their life that connected them with another person . . .God can do that, but you can't accept predestination for your eternal end?
And why would your Pastor feel the need to tack on "oh, there is actually "one" thing that can separate you . . . unless it's to keep the continuity of his church intact by instigating fear of the wrath of God coming down on you if you walk away from . . .THEIR VERSION of God.
I still say the church is one of the main players in creating the terrorism in us today. Men who embrace their natural reasoning over the Spirit of Truth . .but still call it "God" which diffuses most people from searching their own hearts . . .testing the spirits as they say.
This has been briefly touched on in other threads on this forum . . . there is a fear connected with the idea that it's not a terrible thing to let go of that weakness which you struggle with so much. If we'd just stop focusing on our struggle of the flesh and turn to the things of Christ . . .we'd find that the Bible really means what it says . .the battle isn't mine, it's the Lord's.
But the Pastors would never tell you that from the pulpit . .it would be religiuos suicide to suggest such a thing. It would mean letting go of the control that we weren't supposed to have in the first place, and letting people's personalities come out and blend in with the Spirit of truth . .rather than be conformed by a cookie-cutter religion where everyone is more of a clone than a follower of freedom in Christ.
Churches are like eating a rice cake . .their brittle, hollow puffed up pieces of a poor excuse for rice that were soft at one time, but only so they could be crammed into a unified shape to be able to get as many as possible into a dark, airless box. With no flavor . . .and we pretend we like them because they also have no calories . . .you can eat a whole box of them and your body feels full . . .even though it's actually not.
Yup, churches are like rice cakes . . .sigh . . . .Quaker makes those ya know . . .just thought I'd throw that in there. I work at Quaker. It's actually their computer that I write all my stuff from . .so I gotta give them a plug now and then.
Frankly . .HA . .right now, I'm setting here with an empty box of Honey Graham Life cereal. Plain Cap'n Crunch is my all time favorite though . . .How spiritual is that!!
All I can say is to intercede against the spirit of fear in that Church.
While I don't believe in UR, yet I would agree, that no matter where a soul finds themselves, whether that be in hell, or the lake of fire, that there is only one place to look, that is to Jesus Christ. One of my issues is that what I see is that many do not want Jesus Christ, right here, right now, and so I'm not sure they will in the future either, because I see those seeking after Jesus Christ and being his servant increasing in good things (spiritually) and the wicked people getting more wicked.
quote average_bear
QuotePaul getting knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and Jonah, whose "free will" wanted to take him to Taursus. Then, Peter, whose was quick to tell Jesus, "I'll never deny you (because it's my free will not to deny you)"
It could possibly be a mistake, to single out these men as a proof of God acting against free will, mainly because they were all born into the old covenant, and God, knowing the hearts and deeds, chose these men for certain things. Even though Paul persecuted christians, yet he did so ignorantly, as he his states, and he was very zealous in the Law, which was, as far as he knew, the path to God (not knowing the Messiah had came).
Its kind of like Cornelius. God sees the hearts guys, just like Cornelius, there was a very specific reason God sent Peter to him, because he had a good heart, he prayed often and gave alms. Now these deed do not justify him, yet, there is a reason they were mentioned.
This (our hearts) may have a huge impact on whom he chooses to draw unto the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is not enough to point out evil people whom were converted, cause God may have known that they were really good hearted people whom just got caught up, or were born into some bad stuff. Just sayin. God knows.
Acts 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him,
Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Hi average_bear,
Your not over reacting. I sat in many of a service listening to people share how much they please God by their actions. How they tithed and God blessed them, how someone was not blessed because they didn't sacrifice and trust in the Lord and give their money to God.
I listened to the analogy of a gift that a person offered you but unless you choose of your own free will to accept it, you will die and go to hell.
I listen to whole groups of people worship themselves by saying they decided to rise up and enter into Gods grace and the poor poor souls that never will do such a thing because they all hate God.
I listened to people point at others behavior and say "there is no way they could be saved if they did something that bad". Oh so now we are not saved based on just comitting "little" sins.
I couldn't take it anymore, I had to leave, I couldn't sit there and be associated with that.
But as disgusted as I felt after every sermon, I was also co-dependant on the fellowship of the people there, it took 3 years for me to work things through enough to believe I could walk away without balling up into the fetal position in anguish. Amazing of all the things I have been through in my life, I'd rather have gone back to school and gotten the hell beat out of me all over again instead of going through that.
But I made it, it still is not easy, but I could never go back for I know that eventually I would have to go through it all over again. No thank you.
QuoteThis is what happened this past Sunday. Well, two things - first the pastor said something like, "God will never go against your free will" I immediately thought of Paul getting knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and Jonah, whose "free will" wanted to take him to Taursus. Then, Peter, whose was quick to tell Jesus, "I'll never deny you (because it's my free will not to deny you)" Also Pharoh, who the Lord raised up to fulfill His plan, and so on. I also thought about how every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord - and the traditional interpretation that most of them will be "forced to do it - and then cast into the Lake of Fire!!!" (So God won't oppose our free will when it will save us, but He will force us to worship Him against our will when it's too late???? :dontknow: )
I believe God did not go against Paul's free-will, but He actually uses our free-will to His own benefit [That is the fun part about being an all-powerful, all-knowing God and He are places Himself in the life of a weak and ignorant man... ...not much of a contest on what the result is going to be, he already knows my choices and where they would take me even prior to me even knowing I had that choice to begin with]. Paul still had a choice to submit to the vision or reject it but Paul, being the religious man he was, knew this was God.
You are also correct they are very contradictory aren't they? I always found it confusing as they imagine God like a sword fighter in a duel, until God has defeated them and then places his foot on the head of the opposing duelist and places the sword on his temple and says, "Who's your daddy?" Then just because they wouldn't yield and it is obvious his enemy is subdued and could not harm a fly, He strikes the sword through his temple and kills him just after they mumble, "your the daddy."
QuoteFor I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hi AB..
Our Free will ( or choice is a word I prefer to use) Is only Free within the peremiters set before us in this life, what ever choices we make will ultimately conclude to the same END, THIS END being HIM ,when that appointed time comes, BE IT IN THIS LIFE OR THE NEXT...WE CAN MOVE but we cant run away, we can Hide But we will be found, we can DIE but we will LIVE, so HE maybe Glorified and Have MERCY ON ALL.
Its obvious your pastor is Blind to
Love and the Power of God which Is
Christ Jesus In us,
For me, Christ lies in the HEART of ALL men ,be it those who sleep( still dead to Him) and those who are awakened to Him BY FAITH, throu the tearing of the veil OF OUR HEARTS.
Christ is this LOVE in us, which for many
lays dormant until that
DAY of awakening,...therefore nothing can
seperate this LOVE IN US.....
mm, do I believe Paul or some Pastor ...who Limits this LOVE to a selected few...PERFECT LOVE=Christ in US ....CASTS OUT FEAR, AND THOSE WHO DWELL IN Fear ,do not KNOW THIS LOVE.
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Average_BEAR
"You could walk out of here and get hit by a truck!!" (As if Almighty God has no control over what happens to you) When I attended a Baptist church and grace-type church the subject of hell rarely even came up, and when it did, you got the feeling that the folks there only believed in hell in an academic/doctrinal sense.
This is what happened this past Sunday. Well, two things - first the pastor said something like, "God will never go against your free will" I immediately thought of Paul getting knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and Jonah, whose "free will" wanted to take him to Taursus. Then, Peter, whose was quick to tell Jesus, "I'll never deny you (because it's my free will not to deny you)" Also Pharoh, who the Lord raised up to fulfill His plan, and so on. I also thought about how every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord - and the traditional interpretation that most of them will be "forced to do it - and then cast into the Lake of Fire!!!" (So God won't oppose our free will when it will save us, but He will force us to worship Him against our will when it's too late???? )
Man' this sounds so familiar. I have heard this so much from preachers it makes me want to shake them and say, "wake up" but I know it is within God's own time that this wake up will happen.
They also make sure they point out these two verses that say, "search the scriptures, for in them "ye
thinkye have eternal life". Also, "that the world through Him
might be saved." I have heard them say "according to these two verses there is no guarantee for any one.
I would like for someone to show me one person who accepted Christ on their own free will,... which we don't have by the way. It plainly says "no one can come to me except it be given to him of the Father".
Here is a quote from L Ray Smith.
L. Ray Smith: When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. NEVERTHELESS, SOMETHING STILL CAUSED THAT CHOICE, WHETHER ONE SEES OF FEELS ITS PRESENCE OR NOT. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter - the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. MAN'S WILL IS NOT INDEPENDENT FROM HIS CREATOR (Philippians 2:13).
By Jeff Priddy.
"People have been arguing about human free will for centuries. Are human beings free to do what they want, or are they controlled by God? Obviously, and I hope you realize this, both can't be true. A controlled will is not free, and a free will is not controlled".
By Jeff priddy.
"Can anyone be independent of God? God. Hello? I'm talking about God here. The omnipotent, omniscient One Who gives people breath? Who makes their hearts beat? Scripture says, "He gives to all life and breath and all" (Acts 17:25). My version of that is: He gives everybody everything. That's pretty easy to remember, it's fairly inclusive, and it's Scriptural. No one can be independent of God. Otherwise, they'd be dead."
CHB
I would go as far that my free will is not only restricted by God but also by my parents.
My parents did an exelent job. Ok I misunderstood several things... :laughing7:
They engraved a set of parameters in my mind.
All my free will is within those parameters.
A lot like the Craigs 'free will box' in another thread.
Ever wonder why Baptist churches don't break out in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues???
Because they are not Pentecostals. :laugh: :rolllol: :sohappy:
CHB
Thanks all for your insights, they have helped. I wouldn't dogmatically state that we have no free will, but I agree with the sentiments of most (and scripture) that whatever measure of freedom God gives us, it is always limited by the paramiters He has set for us. We obviously have the ability to make choices, for better or for worse, but no choice is free from outside and internal causes. When it comes to spiritual matters, where in scripture did anyone "choose to come to Christ"? Is it not God who calls, draws, chooses, predestines, and saves? I know why they push the idea of free will in some churches. It's because they are not Calvinist, and they want you to know if you go to hell it's your fault, your choice, your free will, your sin that sent you there. But salvation is by grace through faith and even that faith is from God, not our free will. If it were our choice, or free will, without the drawing of Christ, and the calling of God, then we would have some reason to boast. We having nothing to boast in but Christ. Here is perhaps the most important passage in the N.T.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)
[/color]
Peace
AB...
EVERYTHING is Of HIM...EVERY good Gift Comes from HIM...that indeed,..... NO MAN can Boast.
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring
Now take that to your Pastor... :icon_flower:
T
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:01:03 PM
Ever wonder why Baptist churches don't break out in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues???
Yeah, I'd have to say Nathan, that you may not realize this, but, when you say "with the evidence of speaking in tongues" you have shown us all that you, at least, have a pentecostal background (at least I think). Not that I think there is a thing wrong with that. The thing is, in my opinion, that we shouldn't be able to recognize that so easily, cause we are all reading out of the same scriptures (I'm not defending other denominations by the way, they are just as easy to spot with their extrabiblical "key phrases"). That slogan, "with evidence of speaking in tongues" is not in the scriptures. Have all received tongues? No. Then why would anyone turn that into a doctrine. I don't know :dontknow:. Just sayin, not trying to pick on you. :happygrin:
1 Corinthians 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
Its important not to have a congregation of ears, (or tongues). :happygrin:
1 Corinthians 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
While most interpret 1 Corinthians 12:30 as Paul speaking on the fact that all, whom have the Holy Spirit, do not have the same gifts of the Spirit. I can only assume, based on pentecostal doctrines that the pentecostal awnser to his question posed is: YES. :mshock:
I think a much better way has been given to us, that we may each hold as evidence:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
In my opinion the presence of the Holy Spirit is better marked by the evidence of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, however, there are different stages that the Holy Spirit takes us through, and only the mature plants start producing the fruit, in the younger plants, the root, stem and the leaf are still forming, so let them examine their own selves and prove their own selves, as should all of us. And we, whom possess the Holy Spirit, all possess the Holy Spirit by measure, and so we always hope for a greater, or fuller measure. It is in this manner that we are different than Jesus Christ, because he did not possess the Holy Spirit in measure, but he possesses the Holy Spirit without measure.
John 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The only reason I say something, is because it feels like it kills the mood or quenches the Spirit when someone says joyfully "I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit!!!" loud and joyfully, and then, in a much quieter, much faster voice, adds on a manmade doctrine "by evidence in speaking in tongues". Just sayin. :dontknow: That how I feel anyway.
Ok, sorry to pick on you. I love you brother. :happygrin:
No, no . . .I did that on purpose and you picked up on it nicely. And yes, that was my background . .another good call. But there are two points to that . .one is . . as Pentecostals go in my neck of the woods . . .you weren't baptized in the Holy Ghost unless you spoke in other tongues. They always emphasized that. And that's why I worded it like that . .it was a tongue-in-cheek quote.
The other point I was trying to make was, God honors our choices. He does not force himself on you if you don't want him to. The Jews right now are really bent on getting their temple built in the same place where the Dome currently sits. They believe God will honor them when they take it by force . . .God never took anyone by force against their will. Yes, Paul was thrown down, but his desire was to pursue Christ, the problem was, his perception of who Christ was, was terribly deformed due to his up-bringing.
It is the human perception of force that causes difficulty in believing that we actually have to give God permission to work in our lives. He does not require our permission. Nor does he only work in us and through us at our discretion.
John 6:44
G1670 helkuo hel-koo'-o
or helko hel'-ko;
probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. Compare
G1667.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
How are you seeing this verse to say that God doesn't require your permission?
Secondly, I never said that God doesn't require it, I said that God honors our choices. If we reject him, he leaves us up to our own devices. If we receive him, we are "submitting" ourselves to him (to give permission) to do his will in our lives. If I gave my life to him when I was 8 and the older I got, the less I was engaged in his truths . . . to the point to where I pretty much just lived by my own reasoning in every way. . . .and then God began creating a series of circumstances that would bring me to my knees again . . . "that" is different than never experiencing him at all and never wanting to.
He'll call to those who reject him . . .but he won't force himself on them. But those that "did" respond to his call, he "may" just manipulate things to realign them because to him, a covenant is never broken . . . When you ask Christ in your heart, you're letting him be Lord of your life . . . so 20 years from now, that covenant is still active in God's eyes. And he may very well "let" you live according to your mind for a time, but "as" the Lord of you're life, there will come a time when he sets you up to knock yourself over . . .so that he can once again "be" the Lord of your life as you agreed to it years ago.
This is all just my opinion . . . nothing more.
But what exactly does 'draw' mean.
God can pull with the force of a hundred elephants. That's irresistible. A command.
God can also pull with the force of a hamster. Easy to withstand; but still drawing. A suggestion.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2008, 06:59:29 PM
But what exactly does 'draw' mean.
God can pull with the force of a hundred elephants. That's irresistible. A command.
God can also pull with the force of a hamster. Easy to withstand; but still drawing. A suggestion.
Ro 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
Nathan, no worrys dude, your always entitled your opinion, if I misunderstood a post you made about permission, my apologies.
There are a lot of great opinions that make us think, but this idea that God sits around waiting for us to come to him of our own free will is not very solid in scripture. It sounds nice because we can still think we are in control.
Proverbs 16:9 contradicts the notion. Yeah, we devise our ways, but what difference does that make? If God directs our feet despite that, he's not waiting or honoring our choices. He's saying, "Great, thats what you think, here is what I'm going to do, thank you." :laughing7:
You can work it out using the logic of human analogy, but it isn't supported very well when you have to rely on scripture to lock it down.
QuoteProverbs 16:9 contradicts the notion. Yeah, we devise our ways, but what difference does that make? If God directs our feet despite that, he's not waiting or honoring our choices. He's saying, "Great, thats what you think, here is what I'm going to do, thank you."
God is actually waiting and honoring our choices, but the choices we have are the ones He presented to us in the first place. So we are going to where He drags us, voluntarily.
Now Craig THAT I understand.
Thanks.
Paul, I posted this on another thread, I'm assuming everyone sort of keeps up to speed on most of the new posts . . .but your last comment about "locking down" with Scripture . . . I think this is very relevant to that. Before I paste, please understand that what I see . .actually comes from reading Scripture . . .just because I don't always quote your flavor, doesn't necessarily mean it's not of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This has been a platform of mine lately. I'm in a different place with the Word than I have been in the recent past. Actually, it's a lot like other areas in my life . . . I see things that I can't fully explain, but I know there's a change in the atmosphere as to how it's to be taken. Then later understanding does eventually come . .so long as I don't reject the original seed of it in the beginning.
Reading the Word . .literally . .applying it . .literally . .is no longer effective as it once was . . .because God is leading us into the person of rest . . .away from our days of works and labor. Same Word, same outcome, different process. When revelating in Truth, we're to see what lies beneath. Scripture never says Goliath is the carnal man and the cutting off of his head is to resemble how we're to come to Christ . . .headless . . . and it "won't" say it. People . . .on this forum even . .have come against our efforts to share on a revelatory manner due to the fact that we're not proving ourselves with Scripture and verse of everything we're seeing.
If it's not in the Bible . .then it's probably not of God . . .or at least that's the implication. But yet it was CLEAR in the days of Abraham that men were never to sacrifice another man . . . But yet God came to Abraham and asked him to do the very thing that men were not to do . .and Abraham never argued it . .never hesitated and wondered "is that God?". He never based his relationship on what was written, but on what he heard. God didn't speak to Adam through the law, but through his heart. Abraham obviously knew the law, that's why he was sacrificing in the first place. But when the Word came and instructed him to do something against the law . . .he didn't hesitate.
I'm also reminded of Peter . . .God lowered the sheet . . .told Peter to break his law, Peter refused . . . But once Peter realized the truth, he obeyed and as a result, the Spirit was poured out to the Gentile race.
The Word without the Spirit will just make you old and brittle. But when the Spirit illumates the Word . . ."then" light and life will illuminate through you. Someone said on another thread that even Jesus had to be "anointed" by God before he went into ministry. That's a powerful revelation in and of itself.
Quote from: SOtW on August 28, 2008, 09:07:36 PM
QuoteProverbs 16:9 contradicts the notion. Yeah, we devise our ways, but what difference does that make? If God directs our feet despite that, he's not waiting or honoring our choices. He's saying, "Great, thats what you think, here is what I'm going to do, thank you."
God is actually waiting and honoring our choices, but the choices we have are the ones He presented to us in the first place. So we are going to where He drags us, voluntarily.
Then he really isn't "waiting", for he knows the choice he needs to present to direct our feet despite what we think the choice will do.
But I get your point.
.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2008, 06:59:29 PM
But what exactly does 'draw' mean.
God can pull with the force of a hundred elephants. That's irresistible. A command.
God can also pull with the force of a hamster. Easy to withstand; but still drawing. A suggestion.
Sorry to be a cut and paster, but I believe that all flesh of the whole human race shall be resurrected (of life or damnation), all shall bend their knee and call Jesus Christ Lord. And there shall really be no choice in the matter, it just shall be. But, as Irenaeus, I believe that
after that, is when the judgement takes place, it is important to keep everything in order:
quote Irenaeus:
QuoteChapter X.—Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth,
has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father
Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ
Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who
proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a
virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the
flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation
from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one,"and to raise up anew
all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and
Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every
tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just
judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed
and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among
men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous,
and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some
from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and
may surround them with everlasting glory.
Quote from: Nathan on August 28, 2008, 09:56:23 PM
Before I paste, please understand that what I see . .actually comes from reading Scripture . . .just because I don't always quote your flavor, doesn't necessarily mean it's not of God.
I will read what you wrote with care, but I wanted to comment on this. My point about scripture isn't about my flavor. After I read what you have pasted, do you think it wise that I take you at your word that it is scripturally correct?
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 28, 2008, 10:15:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2008, 06:59:29 PM
But what exactly does 'draw' mean.
God can pull with the force of a hundred elephants. That's irresistible. A command.
God can also pull with the force of a hamster. Easy to withstand; but still drawing. A suggestion.
Sorry to be a cut and paster, but I believe that all flesh of the whole human race shall be resurrected (of life or damnation), all shall bend their knee and call Jesus Christ Lord. And there shall really be no choice in the matter, it just shall be. But, as Irenaeus, I believe that after that, is when the judgement takes place, it is important to keep everything in order:
I'm not questioning "every knee shall bow"
Neither am I questioning the 'draw'
I'm just asking about the force of the draw during life.
Unescapeble or just a friendly suggestion?
I will read what you wrote with care, but I wanted to comment on this. My point about scripture isn't about my flavor. After I read what you have pasted, do you think it wise that I take you at your word that it is scripturally correct?
No, trust no one . .that's what Jesus taught . .don't walk according to what you can't see . .only according to what you can. Walking in faith? That was just a distraction.
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:01:03 PM
Ever wonder why Baptist churches don't break out in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues???
Many have and are, as the outpouring is intensifying leading up to the millenium. And you're right about the evidence, inspite of what arcticmonster2003 said about 1Corinthians 12:30 "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"
because that Scripture is talking about ministry operations. Not all operate in gifts of healings or in the speaking of other tongues and interpretation of tongues for the edification of an assembly. But people want to make the baptism in their own image these days rather than to take Acts and St. Paul's epistles at face value and rightly divide where the gifts are concerned. Most haven't scrutinized the epistles closely enough to realize that St. Paul had as much or more to say about the gifts as he did about our redemption. There's not a gift of the Spirit that was manifested in his ministry that he didn't teach exactly how to function in it, including his leave the body in the dungeon and visit the Churches I'm responsible for anyway(!!) type of escapades.
The Holy Spirit is not a fruit barer. The Holy Spirit's not going to be scrutinized in that Day. The Holy Spirit's already perfect and feels zero pressure from persecution, needs, etc. The manifestation of love and the fruit of the recreated human spirit aren't evidences of the baptism with the Holy Spirit even though it's popular to try to say that unScriptural assertion. Love and whatever else are simply evidence of a healthy spiritual life that's partaking richly of the Word daily, being a doer of the Word and not a hearer only, and is in a context of fellowship where the Word of God is being spoken with richness moment by moment, and the Bread and Cup are being partaken of as often as is possible. You can be healthy spiritually and progressively yeilding more and more of your life to the Word and still not be baptized with the Holy Spirit which was always about supernatural power for service. Quite a few throughout Church history have received the baptism without having been the least bit willing to speak in other tongues, though they did anyway, but they were so submitted to the Word or to the Bread and Cup (as the historical context would indicate, case by case) that Jesus in His High Priestly ministry just pulled them forward into everything that they needed to meet the needs of as many people as their hearts and their faith had capacity for, as well as to be able to endure persecution when it came from loved ones or others with the biggest smile and with their words seasoned with grace because they were fortunate enough to be able to partake in the fellowship of His sufferings.
But the power to endure wasn't the baptism, and it wasn't the Holy Spirit's fruit. It was the Kingdom within them that was being nurtured daily in their worship time and in their encounters with the living Jesus. The power is separate and distinct. It's the power to meet any need. A believer doesn't live on the power of the Holy Spirit. Through the Word of God and the Bread and Cup they're supposed to be living on their own fruit as they're bringing crops to harvest with the seed of the Kingdom being in their heart and in their mouth. The power of the Kingdom, as evidenced by speaking in other tongues, is about helping others in every way that would please our heavenly Father for you to be able to help them that day, from insight to making sure they're eating and clothed today even when in the natural perspective you wouldn't have it to give to them. The power is always about multiplying resources, whether it's resources of wisdom and knowledge of the Kingdom or the multiplication of healing, bread, and money.
By saying that it's the fruit of our recreated spirit rather than the Holy Spirit's fruit, I'm not negating God's part in it because one plants, another waters, and it's God that gives the increase. Jesus in His High Priestly ministry, according to 2Corinthians 9 still gives the multiplied fruits of your righteousness by speaking His Word of blessing right over your growing fruit as it's approaching time for harvest so that all of your needs are met and so you can continue to invest into the Kingdom's operations where other people are concerned. The fruit and the gifts easily run parallel in a lot of ways, to where I can understand the confusion for some people, but the Scriptures do distinctly divide the two. Like the "gift of faith" for instance. That's not the same as the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. That's Jesus in His High Priestly ministry adding His faith to yours to complete a transaction where some area of the miraculous is needed in a given situation to minister to others, or to fully step through into your own personal Jubilee as the old man is being put off and the new man is being put on -- along with all of his resources. Given enough time and enough knowledge, your own faith would have done it on it's own, because there's not a single promise of the Word whose substance hasn't already been invested in you when you were born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed. Jesus just used His jumper cables to speed things along in His grace and mercy, because nothing can ever separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I'm really leery of the idea of there being no free will, because without free will there is no such thing as honor, integrity, worship, and an offering to the Lord. God's not going to force you to be honest with me. Free will as far as I'm concerned comes down to honor and integrity too easily 97% of the time. There's lots of room for discussing how far our power of choice extends, and the fact that it definitively doesn't include the power to self damn or to damn others throughout all of eternity.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2008, 10:33:04 PM
I'm not questioning "every knee shall bow"
Neither am I questioning the 'draw'
I'm just asking about the force of the draw during life.
Unescapeble or just a friendly suggestion?
The Greek word for "draw" where Jesus said "And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth will draw all men to Myself" actually means to "drag." There are many names for God in the Old Testament Hebrew text that often just pass into English as God, including the idea of God the warrior and related ideas. Interesting how every knee bows and every tongue confesses that the Anointed Saviour is Lord to the glory of God the Father. When every knee bows and every tongue confesses, they're essentially saying to Christ "you're my only Saviour!!" They're not admitting to having been defeated, or shamed, or vanquished as in the Calvinist idea about it. They're simply fulfilling the prophecy in Isaiah where all will admit that in the Lord alone they have righteousness and strength.
Quote from: martincisneros on August 28, 2008, 10:37:43 PM
I'm really leery of the idea of there being no free will, because without free will there is no such thing as honor, integrity, worship, and an offering to the Lord. God's not going to force you to be honest with me. Free will as far as I'm concerned comes down to honor and integrity too easily 97% of the time. There's lots of room for discussing how far our power of choice extends, and the fact that it definitively doesn't include the power to self damn or to damn others throughout all of eternity.
The idea of free-will within those who believe it is possible to be eternally separated / damned/ tortured, etc has to do with the concept of our human interaction. They are really saying that we can only truly love God if we choose undetermined by anything but ourselves to accept Christ as Savior.
For instance, Buying friends, someone has a lot of money, they spend money on people and they call that person friend. He wants to believe that if they really are friends then it would not matter of you had a dime to your name. So He wants friends who of their own free will come to call Him friend and not due to what you have to offer them monetarily. But then is it only monetary things. Emotional co dependance is another. A friend calls someone a friend, but is only considered a friend because they can always give advise at every crisis, what happens when that person can no longer offer advise that can help?
So, if man is not self determinate according to the end result of what God is going to do, then does it really matter in the end that in the middle we can point out all this freedom?
What honor and integrity is really of ourselves if God is not allowing us self determination?
I am not saying we cannot have honor and integrity without a free will, I am saying we can, due to the will that we have been given by God, just not by our standards.
I know the word drag; but I'm not sure I know teh full meaning of it (in this context)
Does it mean that the one being dragged resists?
In aviation drag is a force that pulls the plane backward. Some sort of resistance.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2008, 11:16:59 PM
Does it mean that the one being dragged resists?
In aviation drag is a force that pulls the plane backward. Some sort of resistance.
Don't we all, at least emotionally, resist what we don't understand?
In our own eyes, we're so often just little ants by comparison to Him. And here's infinite love approaching year after year saying "I'm really not going to step on you! I love you, I need you, and I've prepared a place for you alongside of Me." After the resurrection of Jesus, in St. Paul's epistles our resistance, our rebellion, and our wickedness is our system of thinking. 2Corinthians 4, Ephesians 2, Ephesians 4, etc., etc., etc. It's so often what's going on in our heads that's having to be cast down and brought to the obedience of Christ, according to 2Corinthians 10. It's so often our minds that are so easily lacking in peace and rest, according to Philippians 4 and 1Peter 5. His warfare right now is with every system of thinking that's not His own. And as you know, on certain subjects, people can get nasty about how right they think that they are! :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 28, 2008, 11:16:59 PM
I know the word drag; but I'm not sure I know teh full meaning of it (in this context)
Does it mean that the one being dragged resists?
In aviation drag is a force that pulls the plane backward. Some sort of resistance.
The potter and the clay.
The potter encounters resistance when forming an object , the potter will make it into a wonder of beauty despite that resistance. The potter literally drags the clay where it needs to go. The resistance is a necessary part of the formation of the object.
My personal view of our will is its ability to understand and accept the object we are being formed into and to retain that shape. In this case I cannot say I can really back that up with scripture yet. Just making sure that is known.
quote Martincisneros
QuoteThe manifestation of love and the fruit of the recreated human spirit aren't evidences of the baptism with the Holy Spirit even though it's popular to try to say that unScriptural assertion.
I wish you wouldn't say that showing the fruits of the Holy Spirit as evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit is unscriptural, though you completely took that statement and turned it into a different statement saying instead the recreated human spirit showing fruits, thus confusing what I am even trying to write here, because to me it is (the fruits of the Holy Spirit show as evidence of the Holy Spirit) scriptural. We disagree on much in the scriputures, including on the matter of universalism. :Sparkletooth:
However, I do understand that I often, also, state my views on the scriptures as facts, calling other peoples views on them unscriptural, thats what I did in my earlier post to Nathan in a way, so maybe I'm just getting it back a little. :sigh:
Hi Nathan,
I have read what you wrote, I would like to clarify what seems to be a wall between us when it comes to what we expect from others.
I have done very well on other forums connecting a gap between those who reject the bible, but believe there is a God. I have not done this on my own, this is a place where I have never been before in my travels with God. God through that has caused a few people to rethink their theology, has caused them to crack open a bible and take a peek.
I challenge traditional Christianity because I believe it has become a place where people learn to worship themselves while believing they honor God at the same time. I believe that error of their ways has clouded almost any doctrine they preach with the exception of Jesus being our Savior. But beyond that, human power and self determination clouds anything else they try to say, even the manner in which Christ is our Savior.
I challenge the people who believe they have disproved God only to reveal that they have disproved the religious traditions of men as nonsense and nothing more. I challenge the mystics that they deal more in emotion than sense.
I have done this without quoting one scripture, but I do not hide the fact that the bible is my guiding light. We have to be careful in this manner, we have to continually make sure we do not contradict. Do we need scripture to tell us that contradiction brings question to the validity of an idea? No. It is a very tough road for me to do this, because I am used to verifying and posting the spiritual relationship to the literal word. So I have to study even more to make sure that as I try to inspire the Love of God in people I am not reliquishing my responsibility of correctness to appeal to someone who doesn't want to read the bible in the first place. I do not challenge people who do not read the bible to demonstrate their ideas with scripture. However, it is not unreasonable to expect those who agree that the whole bible is the inspired word of God to demonstrate their ideas through scripture. It is however, unreasonable, in my opinion, for those same people to declare that they can be scripturally correct without a scriptural demonstration of the same.
Christianity poses this particular problem as I have noticed it in the last 5 years of my time in the church. A minister gives his summation and point about something. I see it consistantly as follows,
1.Statement, backing scripture"
2."Statement, backing scripture"
3."Statement, backing scripture"
4. "The climax of the point which is almost always about mans power of self determination... No backing scripture"
It is deception whether by design or ignorance, I do not care, These minsters seem to believe that being scripturally solid up to the final point causes that point to inherantly not require validation.
With that said, I will focus upon something specific in your writing.
Quote
Reading the Word . .literally . .applying it . .literally . .is no longer effective as it once was . . .because God is leading us into the person of rest . . .away from our days of works and labor. Same Word, same outcome, different process. When revelating in Truth, we're to see what lies beneath. Scripture never says Goliath is the carnal man and the cutting off of his head is to resemble how we're to come to Christ . . .headless . . . and it "won't" say it. People . . .on this forum even . .have come against our efforts to share on a revelatory manner due to the fact that we're not proving ourselves with Scripture and verse of everything we're seeing.
While I do know that we can know things beyond the literal scriptural word. Asking someone to verify this with scripture is something we should be able to do. It does not matter if the person sees what you see, it is a verification that your point of view attempts to not contradict.
For instance, Isaiah 45:7 It really doesn't matter the deeper and greater spiritual meaning that is unspoken in the literal word. The spiritual depth of knowledge will still not change the fact that God says he created evil. There is nothing deeper that will make it say, God did not create evil.
I have also related things of science in relationship to scripture, but not in the sense of Creation. In the sense of what spirit is. I have related energy to the spirit of God. This has gotten both Atheists and Christians alike to show real fits of anger as the atheists seemed to hate that I was using their platform to deny God as a demonstration of Him and Christians because I used a so called invention of man instead of scripture. I will not detail it in this thread, but my analogies are as well thought out as anyone could I suppose and I parallel them with scripture as best I could possibly know before implementing those things in what I write.
Nathan, if I am one who, to you, seems to try to suppress someone expressing deeper and more spiritual meanings to the literal word, that is not my intention.
However, please understand that I hold two scriptures sacred for taking the path to build gaps between those who are spiritual and those who rely on the word for the sake of communication and expressing Love for the savior.
1. Titus 1:9 upholding the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able to entreat with sound teaching as well as to expose those who contradict.
2.Peter 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear
I do not say this with any intention of slighting you or to deter you from speaking your mind or your heart. I say this as a brother with a reminder to gaurd against straying from the word. To gaurd against believing that there is anything spiritual that will come to us from God that will change, alter, add or subtract from the written word God has preserved for us in this age of life. I am CERTAIN that the bible does not contain all there is to know about God, I am also certain that in this life of physical carnal existance that we will not ascend to a higher level of learning that will make the bible of no use.
The real danger of the so called "new age" movement is the belief that spirituality is something that can be modernized by young people with new ideas that could possibly make the written word of God less useful under the guise of its age and the culture that it was written in. It is placing ones own desire to be credited with an idea above the scriptural path it should take to glorify God.
I ask you take this in a manner of Good will which is it's intention. My apologies if I was inadequate in my attempt.
Paul
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 28, 2008, 05:22:51 PM
It is the human perception of force that causes difficulty in believing that we actually have to give God permission to work in our lives. He does not require our permission. Nor does he only work in us and through us at our discretion.
John 6:44
G1670 helkuo hel-koo'-o
or helko hel'-ko;
probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. Compare
G1667.
well, but here--when Jesus is going about healing people--look what he does--
47And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
48And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.
49And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.
50And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.
51And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.
52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.--Mark 10
Why would Jesus ask a blind man what he wanted if not to require the man to state his petition? The blind man has to ask specifically for what he wants, and then his faith heals him.
It's an interesting interaction, almost as if Jesus can do nothing for this particular blind man unless the man asks to receive his sight.
I have also found it interesting that the account of the man with the unclean spirits that Jesus honored the request of the demons.
I honestly have not come to a complete conclusion to what this means. I think the message here is broader than just a blind man receiving sight. The literal Greek says, "your faith has saved you" We know that God gives us faith through grace, not of ourselves.
Is Jesus question really a statement of asking or is it an emphasis of the obvious? Doesn't mankind the blind, the broken, the angry, everyone, no matter how much someone says they hate God, do we all not want to be whole? To be saved in hope of this wretched world?
How is this to come about?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
I honestly have not come to a complete conclusion to what this means. I think the message here is broader than just a blind man receiving sight. The literal Greek says, "your faith has saved you" We know that God gives us faith through grace, not of ourselves.
Hi Paul,
This is just the way I see this, nothing concrete.
At the time, the world had no savior and Israel was under the law, I believe this is the answer. After Christ was crucified things changed, it was no longer our faith but Christ's faith that saved us.
CHB
Thanks CHB, I will take that into consideration.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 29, 2008, 07:18:49 AM
Hi Nathan,
I have read what you wrote, I would like to clarify what seems to be a wall between us when it comes to what we expect from others.
I have done very well on other forums connecting a gap between those who reject the bible, but believe there is a God. I have not done this on my own, this is a place where I have never been before in my travels with God. God through that has caused a few people to rethink their theology, has caused them to crack open a bible and take a peek.
I challenge traditional Christianity because I believe it has become a place where people learn to worship themselves while believing they honor God at the same time. I believe that error of their ways has clouded almost any doctrine they preach with the exception of Jesus being our Savior. But beyond that, human power and self determination clouds anything else they try to say, even the manner in which Christ is our Savior.
I challenge the people who believe they have disproved God only to reveal that they have disproved the religious traditions of men as nonsense and nothing more. I challenge the mystics that they deal more in emotion than sense.
I have done this without quoting one scripture, but I do not hide the fact that the bible is my guiding light. We have to be careful in this manner, we have to continually make sure we do not contradict. Do we need scripture to tell us that contradiction brings question to the validity of an idea? No. It is a very tough road for me to do this, because I am used to verifying and posting the spiritual relationship to the literal word. So I have to study even more to make sure that as I try to inspire the Love of God in people I am not reliquishing my responsibility of correctness to appeal to someone who doesn't want to read the bible in the first place. I do not challenge people who do not read the bible to demonstrate their ideas with scripture. However, it is not unreasonable to expect those who agree that the whole bible is the inspired word of God to demonstrate their ideas through scripture. It is however, unreasonable, in my opinion, for those same people to declare that they can be scripturally correct without a scriptural demonstration of the same.
Christianity poses this particular problem as I have noticed it in the last 5 years of my time in the church. A minister gives his summation and point about something. I see it consistantly as follows,
1.Statement, backing scripture"
2."Statement, backing scripture"
3."Statement, backing scripture"
4. "The climax of the point which is almost always about mans power of self determination... No backing scripture"
It is deception whether by design or ignorance, I do not care, These minsters seem to believe that being scripturally solid up to the final point causes that point to inherantly not require validation.
With that said, I will focus upon something specific in your writing.
Quote
Reading the Word . .literally . .applying it . .literally . .is no longer effective as it once was . . .because God is leading us into the person of rest . . .away from our days of works and labor. Same Word, same outcome, different process. When revelating in Truth, we're to see what lies beneath. Scripture never says Goliath is the carnal man and the cutting off of his head is to resemble how we're to come to Christ . . .headless . . . and it "won't" say it. People . . .on this forum even . .have come against our efforts to share on a revelatory manner due to the fact that we're not proving ourselves with Scripture and verse of everything we're seeing.
While I do know that we can know things beyond the literal scriptural word. Asking someone to verify this with scripture is something we should be able to do. It does not matter if the person sees what you see, it is a verification that your point of view attempts to not contradict.
For instance, Isaiah 45:7 It really doesn't matter the deeper and greater spiritual meaning that is unspoken in the literal word. The spiritual depth of knowledge will still not change the fact that God says he created evil. There is nothing deeper that will make it say, God did not create evil.
I have also related things of science in relationship to scripture, but not in the sense of Creation. In the sense of what spirit is. I have related energy to the spirit of God. This has gotten both Atheists and Christians alike to show real fits of anger as the atheists seemed to hate that I was using their platform to deny God as a demonstration of Him and Christians because I used a so called invention of man instead of scripture. I will not detail it in this thread, but my analogies are as well thought out as anyone could I suppose and I parallel them with scripture as best I could possibly know before implementing those things in what I write.
Nathan, if I am one who, to you, seems to try to suppress someone expressing deeper and more spiritual meanings to the literal word, that is not my intention.
However, please understand that I hold two scriptures sacred for taking the path to build gaps between those who are spiritual and those who rely on the word for the sake of communication and expressing Love for the savior.
1. Titus 1:9 upholding the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able to entreat with sound teaching as well as to expose those who contradict.
2.Peter 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear
I do not say this with any intention of slighting you or to deter you from speaking your mind or your heart. I say this as a brother with a reminder to gaurd against straying from the word. To gaurd against believing that there is anything spiritual that will come to us from God that will change, alter, add or subtract from the written word God has preserved for us in this age of life. I am CERTAIN that the bible does not contain all there is to know about God, I am also certain that in this life of physical carnal existance that we will not ascend to a higher level of learning that will make the bible of no use.
The real danger of the so called "new age" movement is the belief that spirituality is something that can be modernized by young people with new ideas that could possibly make the written word of God less useful under the guise of its age and the culture that it was written in. It is placing ones own desire to be credited with an idea above the scriptural path it should take to glorify God.
I ask you take this in a manner of Good will which is it's intention. My apologies if I was inadequate in my attempt.
Paul
Wow. Paul this is the best explanation you could possibly give. Thank you and I appreciate your heart. I have been distracted and emotionally irritated by the distraction of others that it's possibly affected my attitude when reading other responses. Once you get bit by a Mosquito, you almost swing at anything that moves . .thinking it to is a mosquito. You're post was most humbling. I'll lay the fly-swatter down now. If you haven't already, take a stroll over to the other thread I put out . . .I'm not all that proud of the second response I wrote, but my heart is in the first.
My style is one of freedom . .never used to be . . .I was just as religious and conforming as the next guy . .but I found myself standing with John in Revelation . . .God was revealing Jesus Christ to him . .but he was facing the wrong way. I had been facing the wrong way for years. .I lived by the letter of the Word for years. People do conclude from time to time as you have, that I am saying the Bible has lost it's truth. But that couldn't be further from the Truth. I still embrace the Word . . .but not at the surface of what's being said. Jesus said his words are "spirit". If that's the case, then I can't continue to embrace what's on the surface, but still, I need to read the surface in order to identify what lies beneath.
Revelation comes "through" the Word. But only when you're willing to let go of your "knowledge" of the Word and pursue the spiritual understanding. Otherwise, it's no different than the manna of old . . . it's just yesterday's bread that now is rotten and has maggots . . .which is a sign of death and decay.
This is why I sound like I do and say what I do . . .we are no longer of a levitical priesthood . .but we are of a "royal" priesthood. And yet so many continue to embrace the Bible from a Levitical perspective. The people it was written to were essentially, spiritual infants. So, when I embrace it now . . . literally as it was written to them, I am embracing the inability to mature into spiritual adulthood. We want to go deeper in Christ but won't let go of the surface of his Word.
Sorry . .didn't mean to preach. I thank you for your heart bro, I am truly impressed by your post.
Hi Nathan, thank you for your explanation. I personally agree with what you wrote and will work to keep in the direction of edification as bothers.
The blind man in the above story (Mark 10) is both called and chosen.
Called--
49And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.
Chosen--
And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole.
He's now able to follow Jesus--
And, immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.