Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

[Average_Bear]

Who shall separate us from the  :HeartThrob: love  :HeartThrob: of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35-39)

Greetings to all at the Tent  :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:
I just love this portion of scripture, and all of chapter eight. It's such a powerful promise. Paul was thoroughly convinced that nothing, no really - NOTHING can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rest in this wonderful promise.

But I'm writing this to vent, as I have no one to talk with about such things. Comments are welcome.  I've mentioned in earlier post that I still attend an AG church for reasons that I won't go into right now. Anyway, for obvious reasons it's very difficult for me to be the lone believer in a succesful Savior (you know - the Savior of the world who really did save the world) When everyone says "Amen", I say, "that can't be right!!!"  But I keep my mouth shut - for now.   :msealed: The worse thing is that AG churches don't just believe in ET, they emphasize it and preach it. We are constantly threatened with eternal hell for not saying the Sinner's Prayer We are also threatened with instant death "You could walk out of here and get hit by a truck!!"  :omg:  (As if Almighty God has no control over what happens to you) When I attended a Baptist church and grace-type church the subject of hell rarely even came up, and when it did, you got the feeling that the folks there only believed in hell in an academic/doctrinal sense.

This is what happened this past Sunday. Well, two things - first the pastor said something like, "God will never go against your free will" I immediately thought of Paul getting knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and Jonah, whose "free will" wanted to take him to Taursus. Then, Peter, whose was quick to tell Jesus, "I'll never deny you (because it's my free will not to deny you)" Also Pharoh, who the Lord raised up to fulfill His plan, and so on. I also thought about how every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord - and the traditional interpretation that most of them will be "forced to do it - and then cast into the Lake of Fire!!!" (So God won't oppose our free will when it will save us, but He will force us to worship Him against our will when it's too late???? :dontknow: )

But I'm used to hearing stuff like that. What really bothered me was this. The pastor read part of the scripture I quoted above and then added. "There is something that can separate you from the love of God - it's your free will"  :Yeahright: So let me get this straight - you say that something can separate us from the love of God, and Paul says that nothing can separate us from the love of God? Hmmm....who should I believe, the Bible or the preacher? By adding to the word, the preacher completely negated and contradicted everything Paul wrote in Romans chapter eight.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but this is really bothering me. All day long I've been saying to myself "How could he say that?"

[Nathan]

The ego wants you to believe it's more powerful than God.  That's basically what your Pastor is saying.  My mind can over-ride the power of the cross . . .that's just sad. 

We obviously do have freedom to choose, just not our eternal end, that has already been "predestined".  Funny you'll hear about people having a "divine appointment" which means that as they look back, they can see how God orchestrated things in their life that connected them with another person . . .God can do that, but you can't accept predestination for your eternal end?

And why would your Pastor feel the need to tack on "oh, there is actually "one" thing that can separate you . . . unless it's to keep the continuity of his church intact by instigating fear of the wrath of God coming down on you if you walk away from . . .THEIR VERSION of God.

I still say the church is one of the main players in creating the terrorism in us today.  Men who embrace their natural reasoning over the Spirit of Truth . .but still call it "God" which diffuses most people from searching their own hearts . . .testing the spirits as they say.

This has been briefly touched on in other threads on this forum . . . there is a fear connected with the idea that it's not a terrible thing to let go of that weakness which you struggle with so much.  If we'd just stop focusing on our struggle of the flesh and turn to the things of Christ . . .we'd find that the Bible really means what it says . .the battle isn't mine, it's the Lord's. 

But the Pastors would never tell you that from the pulpit . .it would be religiuos suicide to suggest such a thing.  It would mean letting go of the control that we weren't supposed to have in the first place, and letting people's personalities come out and blend in with the Spirit of truth . .rather than be conformed by a cookie-cutter religion where everyone is more of a clone than a follower of freedom in Christ.

Churches are like eating a rice cake . .their brittle, hollow puffed up pieces of a poor excuse for rice that were soft at one time, but only so they could be crammed into a unified shape to be able to get as many as possible into a dark, airless box.  With no flavor . . .and we pretend we like them because they also have no calories . . .you can eat a whole box of them and your body feels full . . .even though it's actually not.

Yup, churches are like rice cakes . . .sigh . . . .Quaker makes those ya know . . .just thought I'd throw that in there.  I work at Quaker.  It's actually their computer that I write all my stuff from . .so I gotta give them a plug now and then.

Frankly . .HA . .right now, I'm setting here with an empty box of Honey Graham Life cereal.  Plain Cap'n Crunch is my all time favorite though . . .How spiritual is that!!

[martincisneros]

All I can say is to intercede against the spirit of fear in that Church.

[arcticmonster2003]

While I don't believe in UR, yet I would agree, that no matter where a soul finds themselves, whether that be in hell, or the lake of fire, that there is only one place to look, that is to Jesus Christ. One of my issues is that what I see is that many do not want Jesus Christ, right here, right now, and so I'm not sure they will in the future either, because I see those seeking after Jesus Christ and being his servant increasing in good things (spiritually) and the wicked people getting more wicked.

quote average_bear

Paul getting knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and Jonah, whose "free will" wanted to take him to Taursus. Then, Peter, whose was quick to tell Jesus, "I'll never deny you (because it's my free will not to deny you)"

It could possibly be a mistake, to single out these men as a proof of God acting against free will, mainly because they were all born into the old covenant, and God, knowing the hearts and deeds, chose these men for certain things. Even though Paul persecuted christians, yet he did so ignorantly, as he his states, and he was very zealous in the Law, which was, as far as he knew, the path to God (not knowing the Messiah had came).

Its kind of like Cornelius. God sees the hearts guys, just like Cornelius, there was a very specific reason God sent Peter to him, because he had a good heart, he prayed often and gave alms. Now these deed do not justify him, yet, there is a reason they were mentioned. This (our hearts) may have a huge impact on whom he chooses to draw unto the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is not enough to point out evil people whom were converted, cause God may have known that they were really good hearted people whom just got caught up, or were born into some bad stuff. Just sayin. God knows.

Acts 10:3  He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4  And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi average_bear,

Your not over reacting.  I sat in many of a service listening to people share how much they please God by their actions.  How they tithed and God blessed them, how someone was not blessed because they didn't sacrifice and trust in the Lord and give their money to God.   

I listened to the analogy of a gift that a person offered you but unless you choose of your own free will to accept it, you will die and go to hell.

I listen to whole groups of people worship themselves by saying they decided to rise up and enter into Gods grace and the poor poor souls that never will do such a thing because they all hate God.

I listened to people point at others behavior and say  "there is no way they could be saved if they did something that bad".   Oh so now we are not saved based on just comitting "little" sins.

I couldn't take it anymore, I had to leave,  I couldn't sit there and be associated with that.   

But as disgusted as I felt after every sermon,  I was also co-dependant on the fellowship of the people there,  it took 3 years for me to work things through enough to believe I could walk away without balling up into the fetal position in anguish.   Amazing of all the things I have been through in my life,  I'd rather have gone back to school and gotten the hell beat out of me all over again instead of going through that.

But I made it,  it still is not easy, but I could never go back for I know that eventually I would have to go through it all over again.  No thank you.

[Craig]

This is what happened this past Sunday. Well, two things - first the pastor said something like, "God will never go against your free will" I immediately thought of Paul getting knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and Jonah, whose "free will" wanted to take him to Taursus. Then, Peter, whose was quick to tell Jesus, "I'll never deny you (because it's my free will not to deny you)" Also Pharoh, who the Lord raised up to fulfill His plan, and so on. I also thought about how every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord - and the traditional interpretation that most of them will be "forced to do it - and then cast into the Lake of Fire!!!" (So God won't oppose our free will when it will save us, but He will force us to worship Him against our will when it's too late???? :dontknow: )

I believe God did not go against Paul's free-will, but He actually uses our free-will to His own benefit [That is the fun part about being an all-powerful, all-knowing God and He are places Himself in the life of a weak and ignorant man... ...not much of a contest on what the result is going to be, he already knows my choices and where they would take me even prior to me even knowing I had that choice to begin with]. Paul still had a choice to submit to the vision or reject it but Paul, being the religious man he was, knew this was God.

You are also correct they are very contradictory aren't they? I always found it confusing as they imagine God like a sword fighter in a duel, until God has defeated them and then places his foot on the head of the opposing duelist and places the sword on his temple and says, "Who's your daddy?" Then just because they wouldn't yield and it is obvious his enemy is subdued and could not harm a fly, He strikes the sword through his temple and kills him just after they mumble, "your the daddy."

[Taffy]

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hi AB..

Our Free will ( or choice is a word I prefer to use) Is only Free within the peremiters set before us in this life, what ever choices we make will ultimately conclude to the same END, THIS END being HIM ,when that appointed time comes, BE IT IN THIS LIFE OR THE NEXT...WE CAN MOVE but we cant run away, we can Hide But we will be found, we can DIE but we will LIVE, so HE maybe Glorified and Have MERCY ON ALL.

Its obvious your pastor is Blind to Love and the Power of God which Is Christ Jesus In us,

For me, Christ lies in the HEART of ALL men ,be it  those who sleep( still dead to Him) and those who are awakened to Him BY FAITH, throu the tearing of the veil OF OUR HEARTS.

Christ is this LOVE in us, which for many lays dormant until that DAY of awakening,...therefore nothing can seperate this LOVE IN US.....

mm, do I believe Paul or some Pastor ...who Limits this LOVE to a selected few...PERFECT LOVE=Christ in US ....CASTS OUT FEAR, AND THOSE WHO  DWELL IN Fear ,do not KNOW THIS LOVE.

Blessings
Taffy

[CHB]

"You could walk out of here and get hit by a truck!!"    (As if Almighty God has no control over what happens to you) When I attended a Baptist church and grace-type church the subject of hell rarely even came up, and when it did, you got the feeling that the folks there only believed in hell in an academic/doctrinal sense.

This is what happened this past Sunday. Well, two things - first the pastor said something like, "God will never go against your free will" I immediately thought of Paul getting knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and Jonah, whose "free will" wanted to take him to Taursus. Then, Peter, whose was quick to tell Jesus, "I'll never deny you (because it's my free will not to deny you)" Also Pharoh, who the Lord raised up to fulfill His plan, and so on. I also thought about how every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord - and the traditional interpretation that most of them will be "forced to do it - and then cast into the Lake of Fire!!!" (So God won't oppose our free will when it will save us, but He will force us to worship Him against our will when it's too late????  )

Man' this sounds so familiar. I have heard this so much from preachers it makes me want to shake them and say, "wake up" but I know it is within God's own time that this wake up will happen.

They also make sure they point out these two verses that say, "search the scriptures, for in them "ye thinkye have eternal life".  Also, "that the world through Him might be saved."  I have heard them say "according to these two verses there is no guarantee for any one.

I would like for someone to show me one person who accepted Christ on their own free will,... which we don't have by the way. It plainly says "no one can come to me except it be given to him of the Father".

Here is a quote from L Ray Smith.

L. Ray Smith: When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. NEVERTHELESS, SOMETHING STILL CAUSED THAT CHOICE, WHETHER ONE SEES OF FEELS ITS PRESENCE OR NOT. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter - the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. MAN'S WILL IS NOT INDEPENDENT FROM HIS CREATOR (Philippians 2:13).

By Jeff Priddy.

"People have been arguing about human free will for centuries. Are human beings free to do what they want, or are they controlled by God? Obviously, and I hope you realize this, both can't be true. A controlled will is not free, and a free will is not controlled".

By Jeff priddy.
"Can anyone be independent of God? God. Hello? I'm talking about God here. The omnipotent, omniscient One Who gives people breath? Who makes their hearts beat? Scripture says, "He gives to all life and breath and all" (Acts 17:25). My version of that is: He gives everybody everything. That's pretty easy to remember, it's fairly inclusive, and it's Scriptural. No one can be independent of God. Otherwise, they'd be dead."

CHB

[WhiteWings]

I would go as far that my free will is not only restricted by God but also by my parents.
My parents did an exelent job. Ok I misunderstood several things...  :laughing7:
They engraved a set of parameters in my mind.
All my free will is within those parameters.
A lot like the Craigs 'free will box' in another thread.

[Nathan]

Ever wonder why Baptist churches don't break out in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues???

[CHB]

Because they are not Pentecostals.   :laugh: :rolllol: :sohappy:

CHB

[Average_Bear]

Thanks all for your insights, they have helped. I wouldn't dogmatically state that we have no free will, but I agree with the sentiments of most (and scripture) that whatever measure of freedom God gives us, it is always limited by the paramiters He has set for us. We obviously have the ability to make choices, for better or for worse, but no choice is free from outside and internal causes. When it comes to spiritual matters, where in scripture did anyone "choose to come to Christ"? Is it not God who calls, draws, chooses, predestines, and saves? I know why they push the idea of free will in some churches. It's because they are not Calvinist, and they want you to know if you go to hell it's your fault, your choice, your free will, your sin that sent you there. But salvation is by grace through faith and even that faith is from God, not our free will. If it were our choice, or free will, without the drawing of Christ, and the calling of God, then we would have some reason to boast. We having nothing to boast in but Christ. Here is perhaps the most important passage in the N.T.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)
[/color]
Peace

[Taffy]

AB...

EVERYTHING is Of HIM...EVERY good Gift Comes from HIM...that indeed,..... NO MAN can Boast.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring

Now take that to your Pastor... :icon_flower:

T

[arcticmonster2003]

Ever wonder why Baptist churches don't break out in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues???

Yeah, I'd have to say Nathan, that you may not realize this, but, when you say "with the evidence of speaking in tongues" you have shown us all that you, at least, have a pentecostal background (at least I think). Not that I think there is a thing wrong with that. The thing is, in my opinion, that we shouldn't be able to recognize that so easily, cause we are all reading out of the same scriptures (I'm not defending other denominations by the way, they are just as easy to spot with their extrabiblical "key phrases"). That slogan, "with evidence of speaking in tongues" is not in the scriptures. Have all received tongues? No. Then why would anyone turn that into a doctrine. I don't know :dontknow:. Just sayin, not trying to pick on you. :happygrin:

1 Corinthians 12:16  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

Its important not to have a congregation of ears, (or tongues). :happygrin:

1 Corinthians 12:30  Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

While most interpret 1 Corinthians 12:30 as Paul speaking on the fact that all, whom have the Holy Spirit, do not have the same gifts of the Spirit. I can only assume, based on pentecostal doctrines that the pentecostal awnser to his question posed is: YES. :mshock:

I think a much better way has been given to us, that we may each hold as evidence:

2 Corinthians 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

In my opinion the presence of the Holy Spirit is better marked by the evidence of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, however, there are different stages that the Holy Spirit takes us through, and only the mature plants start producing the fruit, in the younger plants, the root, stem and the leaf are still forming, so let them examine their own selves and prove their own selves, as should all of us. And we, whom possess the Holy Spirit, all possess the Holy Spirit by measure, and so we always hope for a greater, or fuller measure. It is in this manner that we are different than Jesus Christ, because he did not possess the Holy Spirit in measure, but he possesses the Holy Spirit without measure.

John 3:31  He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32  And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33  He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34  For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The only reason I say something, is because it feels like it kills the mood or quenches the Spirit when someone says joyfully "I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit!!!" loud and joyfully, and then, in a much quieter, much faster voice, adds on a manmade doctrine "by evidence in speaking in tongues". Just sayin. :dontknow: That how I feel anyway.

Ok, sorry to pick on you. I love you brother. :happygrin:

[Nathan]

No, no . . .I did that on purpose and you picked up on it nicely.  And yes, that was my background . .another good call.  But there are two points to that . .one is . . as Pentecostals go in my  neck of the woods . . .you weren't baptized in the Holy Ghost unless you spoke in other tongues.  They always emphasized that.  And that's why I worded it like that . .it was a tongue-in-cheek quote.

The other point I was trying to make was, God honors our choices.  He does not force himself on you if you don't want him to.  The Jews right now are really bent on getting their temple built in the same place where the Dome currently sits.  They believe God will honor them when they take it by force . . .God never took anyone by force against their will.  Yes, Paul was thrown down, but his desire was to pursue Christ, the problem was, his perception of who Christ was, was terribly deformed due to his up-bringing.

[Paul Hazelwood]

It is the human perception of force that causes difficulty in believing that we actually have to give God permission to work in our lives.   He does not require our permission.  Nor does he only work in us and through us at our discretion.

John 6:44

G1670  helkuo  hel-koo'-o

or helko hel'-ko;

probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. Compare
G1667.

[Nathan]

 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

How are you seeing this verse to say that God doesn't require your permission?

Secondly, I never said that God doesn't require it, I said that God honors our choices.  If we reject him, he leaves us up to our own devices.  If we receive him, we are "submitting" ourselves to him (to give permission) to do his will in our lives.  If I gave my life to him when I was 8 and the older I got, the less I was engaged in his truths . . . to the point to where I pretty much just lived by my own reasoning in every way. . . .and then God began creating a series of circumstances that would bring me to my knees again . . . "that" is different than never experiencing him at all and never wanting to.

He'll call to those who reject him . . .but he won't force himself on them.  But those that "did" respond to his call, he "may" just manipulate things to realign them because to him, a covenant is never broken . . . When you ask Christ in your heart, you're letting him be Lord of your life . . . so 20 years from now, that covenant is still active in God's eyes.  And he may very well "let" you live according to your mind for a time, but "as" the Lord of you're life, there will come a time when he sets you up to knock yourself over . . .so that he can once again "be" the Lord of your life as you agreed to it years ago.

This is all just my opinion . . . nothing more.

[WhiteWings]

But what exactly does 'draw' mean.

God can pull with the force of a hundred elephants. That's irresistible. A command.
God can also pull with the force of a hamster. Easy to withstand; but still drawing. A suggestion.

[Paul Hazelwood]

But what exactly does 'draw' mean.

God can pull with the force of a hundred elephants. That's irresistible. A command.
God can also pull with the force of a hamster. Easy to withstand; but still drawing. A suggestion.

Ro 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then,  "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"

Nathan, no worrys dude, your always entitled your opinion, if I misunderstood a post you made about permission,  my apologies.   

There are a lot of great opinions that make us think, but this idea that God sits around waiting for us to come to him of our own free will is not very solid in scripture.  It sounds nice because we can still think we are in control.

Proverbs 16:9 contradicts the notion.  Yeah, we devise our ways, but what difference does that make? If God directs our feet despite that, he's not waiting or honoring our choices.  He's saying, "Great, thats what you think, here is what I'm going to do,  thank you."    :laughing7:


You can work it out using the logic of human analogy, but it isn't supported very well when you have to rely on scripture to lock it down.

[Craig]

Proverbs 16:9 contradicts the notion.  Yeah, we devise our ways, but what difference does that make? If God directs our feet despite that, he's not waiting or honoring our choices.  He's saying, "Great, thats what you think, here is what I'm going to do,  thank you."

God is actually waiting and honoring our choices, but the choices we have are the ones He presented to us in the first place. So we are going to where He drags us, voluntarily.

[Nathan]

Now Craig THAT I understand. 

Thanks.

[Nathan]

Paul, I posted this on another thread, I'm assuming everyone sort of keeps up to speed on most of the new posts . . .but your last comment about "locking down" with Scripture   . . . I think this is very relevant to that.  Before I paste, please understand that what I see . .actually comes from reading Scripture . . .just because I don't always quote your flavor, doesn't necessarily mean it's not of God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This has been a platform of mine lately.  I'm in a different place with the Word than I have been in the recent past.  Actually, it's a lot like other areas in my life . . . I see things that I can't fully explain, but I know there's a change in the atmosphere as to how it's to be taken.  Then later understanding does eventually come . .so long as I don't reject the original seed of it in the beginning.

Reading the Word . .literally . .applying it . .literally . .is no longer effective as it once was . . .because God is leading us into the person of rest . . .away from our days of works and labor.  Same Word, same outcome, different process.  When revelating in Truth, we're to see what lies beneath.  Scripture never says Goliath is the carnal man and the cutting off of his head is to resemble how we're to come to Christ . . .headless . . .  and it "won't" say it.  People . . .on this forum even . .have come against our efforts to share on a revelatory manner due to the fact that we're not proving ourselves with Scripture and verse of everything we're seeing.

If it's not in the Bible . .then it's probably not of God . . .or at least that's the implication.  But yet it was CLEAR in the days of Abraham that men were never to sacrifice another man . . . But yet God came to Abraham and asked him to do the very thing that men were not to do . .and Abraham never argued it . .never hesitated and wondered "is that God?".  He never based his relationship on what was written, but on what he heard.  God didn't speak to Adam through the law, but through his heart.  Abraham obviously knew the law, that's why he was sacrificing in the first place.  But when the Word came and instructed him to do something against the law . . .he didn't hesitate.

I'm also reminded of Peter . . .God lowered the sheet . . .told Peter to break his law, Peter refused . . . But once Peter realized the truth, he obeyed and as a result, the Spirit was poured out to the Gentile race.

The Word without the Spirit will just make you old and brittle.  But when the Spirit illumates the Word . . ."then" light and life will illuminate through you.  Someone said on another thread that even Jesus had to be "anointed" by God before he went into ministry.  That's a powerful revelation in and of itself.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Proverbs 16:9 contradicts the notion.  Yeah, we devise our ways, but what difference does that make? If God directs our feet despite that, he's not waiting or honoring our choices.  He's saying, "Great, thats what you think, here is what I'm going to do,  thank you."

God is actually waiting and honoring our choices, but the choices we have are the ones He presented to us in the first place. So we are going to where He drags us, voluntarily.

Then he really isn't "waiting",   for he knows the choice he needs to present to direct our feet despite what we think the choice will do. 

But I get your point.

.   

[arcticmonster2003]

But what exactly does 'draw' mean.

God can pull with the force of a hundred elephants. That's irresistible. A command.
God can also pull with the force of a hamster. Easy to withstand; but still drawing. A suggestion.

Sorry to be a cut and paster, but I believe that all flesh of the whole human race shall be resurrected (of life or damnation), all shall bend their knee and call Jesus Christ Lord. And there shall really be no choice in the matter, it just shall be. But, as Irenaeus, I believe that after that, is when the judgement takes place, it is important to keep everything in order:

quote Irenaeus:

Chapter X.—Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth,
has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father
Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ
Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who
proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a
virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the
flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation
from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one,"and to raise up anew
all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and
Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every
tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just
judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed
and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among
men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous,
and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some
from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and
may surround them with everlasting glory.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Before I paste, please understand that what I see . .actually comes from reading Scripture . . .just because I don't always quote your flavor, doesn't necessarily mean it's not of God.

I will read what you wrote with care, but I wanted to comment on this.   My point about scripture isn't about my flavor.  After I read what you have pasted, do you think it wise that I take you at your word that it is scripturally correct?