A typical response to a person asking about hell

[Craig]

I have the freedom to live for, or against God . . .I do not have the freedom to choose my eternal end.  I can forgo the lake of fire by "choosing" to let Christ transform me now.  I can walk out of God's will . . .but never out of his plan.

Correct. Free-will in tact, self-determination and free moral agent is destroyed.

Correction is best applied when given in tenderness as opposed to firmness.

Correct again. However there was no need for that comment.

I gave it in what I thought, believed, and felt was tenderness because this is not the first time it was corrected. She did not feel so, so I apologized and re-emphesized it to recognize it was out of tenderness. 

You are showing yourself to be rather suspicious in how you gain favor, Nathan. If you had been fair, you would have also added there are also people who do not like to be corrected no matter how it is done.

[Nathan]

Correcting a correction . . .you're killing me!!! :laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

We can also find instances where tenderness is not always the proper application of correction.

[Craig]

We can also find instances where tenderness is not always the proper application of correction.

Thank-you Paul for the voice of reason.

[Average_Bear]

My problem is I'm not entirely convinced of universal salvation, although wish with all my heart that it's true (My main reason being I'm not unconvinced about ET)

I'm getting there though, there are a few things I don't believe in anymore (thanks to Ray's teaching on bible-truths mainly free will


Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few chosen.

Joh 15:16  You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you.

Act 9:15  And the Lord said to him, Go, for this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.


BTW that article came from an ET site which believes in free will - You must choose God and Christ (This particular site, has a whole page dedicated to exposing false teachers, ironically most of those ministries being criticized believe in ET themselves)

However if universal salvation isn't true what are the alternatives

Calvinism
Arminianism

Which ever way you look at it, you can't escape the fact that God in His Sovereignty foreknew everything that would happen, before the world was ever created so he would have known who would have accepted Christ long before they were ever born

If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

I will continue to search for the truth, as logically universalism makes the most sense, I just hope its right :HeartThrob:

Shadow - have you been reading my mind??  :thinking: These exact thoughts go through my mind sometimes. I've been into UR for almost a year now. Like you, I want it to be true, but some days I do have doubts. When those doubts come, my train of thought goes something like yours. This morning I was thinking if ET is true, then I'll have to believe in some version of Calvinism or Armenianism and that's where ET falls apart. I have found that the "pillars" of hell are much easier to disprove than hell itself. Once you remove the pillars (free will, age of accoutability, predestined to be damned, errouneous translations, immortal soul, etc.), then hell is left sitting on very thin ice.

[firstborn888]

:mshock: :mshock: :angry1: :angry1: :angry1: :eek: :eek: :eek: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum:

This is one of the cool-est set/order of emoticons I have ever seen. Wow.

[CHB]

I have the freedom to live for, or against God . . .I do not have the freedom to choose my eternal end.  I can forgo the lake of fire by "choosing" to let Christ transform me now.  I can walk out of God's will . . .but never out of his plan.

Nathan,

You say you "have the freedom to live for, or against God". How did you gain this freedom? Did this freedom come from yourself or was it God working in you that caused you to choose? If this freedom came from you and had nothing to do with God, then you have free will but if God had anything to do with you choosing then you do not have free will. 

What do you mean you "can walk out of God's will?"  If this is true, then doesn't that make you more powerful than God? I thought everything that was done was within God's will?   

CHB   :happy3:

[Paul Hazelwood]

ok, rather than trying to argue over terms I have a couple of questions just so I can learn to understand this point of view a little better.  I have not had reason to question my own as of yet,  so far it is a view of terms that gets in the way.

I am going to ask the question using the term free will because I cannot think of any other way to ask it.

If we do not have a choice to determine our eternal end, then what exactly takes place that keeps this free-will concerning our choices intact when God decides our eternal end despite our will.

[Nathan]

Hmmm . . .now you're making me think . . .I hate that.  Okay . . . as far as the freedom to choose to live for or against God . . .Scripture states that God is working in me both to will and to do his good pleasure . . . but if I "rebel" then I "can" walk out of his will.  How many people have we seen come to Christ, have a religious experience and then eventually, quit going to church, quit reading the Bible, quit growing in the Lord . . . is God working in them still?  Or did they begin walking according to their flesh rather than their spirit.

Paul even stated that there is a battle within him constantly to try to do that which is right . .but he can't . . .and not to do what is bad . . .and he does . . .is "that" God working in Paul?  God does give man the ability to choose, the ability to make a conscious decsion as to which voice to listen to.  He desires we follow the voice of the Spirit, but he doesn't force us to when we choose otherwise.  It's not that God "can't" it's that God "let's" us choose our path, but as far as us choosing our end . .no, that we don't have because if it were left up to us . .we'd screw that up to.

It's like taking your dog to Africa . . .and turning him loose . . .he'd run and run for a while . . and no matter how far he went or what direction he chose, he'd still be in Africa.

God has turned man loose on this earth.  We have the freedom to decide if we want to cover as much ground as possible, or if we set up camp and stay in one place the entire time.  If we pursue Christ in Truth, or if we're content with where we aren't.  But in the end, Grace abounds.

To me, walking out of God's will doesn't make you more powerful, it just makes your life more painful.  It's not saying your mind is more powerful than God at all.  God's "will" is his desire, but he doesn't enforce his desires on us if we're not willing.

Looking at the four soils again . .they are the Word of God . . They are God's will . .but only one of them comes into the fulfilled purpose, the other three were discarded by the choices of men . . .but that doesn't make men stronger than God.  Make any sense?

[Craig]

Hmmm . . .now you're making me think . . .I hate that.  Okay . . . as far as the freedom to choose to live for or against God . . .Scripture states that God is working in me both to will and to do his good pleasure . . . but if I "rebel" then I "can" walk out of his will.  How many people have we seen come to Christ, have a religious experience and then eventually, quit going to church, quit reading the Bible, quit growing in the Lord . . . is God working in them still?  Or did they begin walking according to their flesh rather than their spirit.

Paul even stated that there is a battle within him constantly to try to do that which is right . .but he can't . . .and not to do what is bad . . .and he does . . .is "that" God working in Paul?  God does give man the ability to choose, the ability to make a conscious decsion as to which voice to listen to.  He desires we follow the voice of the Spirit, but he doesn't force us to when we choose otherwise.  It's not that God "can't" it's that God "let's" us choose our path, but as far as us choosing our end . .no, that we don't have because if it were left up to us . .we'd screw that up to.

It's like taking your dog to Africa . . .and turning him loose . . .he'd run and run for a while . . and no matter how far he went or what direction he chose, he'd still be in Africa.

God has turned man loose on this earth.  We have the freedom to decide if we want to cover as much ground as possible, or if we set up camp and stay in one place the entire time.  If we pursue Christ in Truth, or if we're content with where we aren't.  But in the end, Grace abounds.

To me, walking out of God's will doesn't make you more powerful, it just makes your life more painful.  It's not saying your mind is more powerful than God at all.  God's "will" is his desire, but he doesn't enforce his desires on us if we're not willing.

Looking at the four soils again . .they are the Word of God . . They are God's will . .but only one of them comes into the fulfilled purpose, the other three were discarded by the choices of men . . .but that doesn't make men stronger than God.  Make any sense?

See this is what we agree on.

[Craig]

ok, rather than trying to argue over terms I have a couple of questions just so I can learn to understand this point of view a little better.  I have not had reason to question my own as of yet,  so far it is a view of terms that gets in the way.

I am going to ask the question using the term free will because I cannot think of any other way to ask it.

If we do not have a choice to determine our eternal end, then what exactly takes place that keeps this free-will concerning our choices intact when God decides our eternal end despite our will.

The boundaries of our habitation. I drew this up last night knowing it would come up. Click on the image below

So let me explain the image:
The Blue Square is your life.
The Blue Square is your boundary and habitation that God has placed you.
Free-will exists only in the blue square.
You are a star in the middle, you can only move outward towards the end of the blue square.
God's Sovereignty is over all, the blue square and the white square.


Now you are born within the boundaries and habitation in which God has placed you. Beyond these boundaries, you have no choice, regardless of your path, whether up, down, left, or right, you always end up at the end of the boundary and habitation in which God placed you. You have no choice in the blue square in which you were put, it also doesn't matter where in the square you go, you always end up where God wants you at the end. Upon growing to the end of your boundary and habitation, you will still exit the blue square, and enter the white square where God wants you.

At any time, God can alter the shape of the blue square, thus limiting the choices you have, at any time God can pick you up and put you somewhere else in the blue square, this is because God is sovereign over all things and is in view of all your paths within the blue square. Having limited choices and being moved to one side to the other, does not negate free-will within the blue square, it just limits the amount of choices you have to travel in that blue square.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So, would it be reasonable to say that God knows exactly how to cause our choices to willingly conform to his will?

[Craig]

So, would it be reasonable to say that God knows exactly how to cause our choices to willingly conform to his will?

[As I was pondering how to answer you Paul, I just felt the Spirit of God and just began to write. Take it or leave it, this is what resulted.]

I affirm that God is all knowing, all present, all seeing and all powerful. Therefore it is possible that God knows exactly how to cause our choices to willingly conform to His will. To have the ability to make choices and learn from them, which is called the freedom of will (free-will), does not make us all knowing, all present, all seeing and all powerful. Therefore, since we do not always know where our choices lead us, any choice set before us is accepted by faith that it was the right choice for the situation. At the same time because we do not always know where our choices lead us, if there was one who was all powerful and all knowing, He could direct the path to His desired destination. This gives the illusion of self-determination, in which one chooses the path they are on; and since no man knows the future, he could never say he did not choose to be there. In fact, he did chose it but it did not go as he expected at the time he had chose.

This is the purest truth which both logically Calvinists and Armenians believe and the folly of their conclusions. The Armenian say the person choose the path they are on, while the Calvinist say God is the one who chose their path, one believes in self-determination and other in predestination. Both the Armenian and Calvinist deny God's providence in both cases. If you include God's providence over all mankind, then you naturally have no other conclusion than to be a Christian Univeralist.

Now this system God has designed at a glance does not address evil and those who during and at the end of their life, end in evil. The reason the Armenian believes in self-determination and the Calvinist believes in dual predestination is because there are men who have chosen or become very evil and do very evil things without any sign of change or repentance. The Armenian says evil is a result of man's self-determination, series of choices contrary to what is good leads men who choses evil has chosen his evil destination; the Calvinist says that this is due to God predestination that some shall be evil and so arrive at their evil destination. In fact, this is some of the biggest hurdles for a Christian Universalist to explain.

For a Christian Universalist, this problem of evil presents an even greater concern since it is obvious that there are evil people doing evil things who die in their sin and in the evil that they have done. If by God's providence all mankind is being guided to salvation and eternal life, then it can assumed that Christian Univeralism is wrong in his belief and either Armenianism or Calvinism is correct; that is of course, is only if our hope is only for this life we live. There is something more beyond this life and it's choices which are within God's providence, it is the resurrection of the dead. This is a literal second life after judgment for all mankind, aionios zoe for the righteous and reign with God and aionios kolasis for the wicked who are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The duties and work of a believer does not end at their physical death, in fact they into full measure. As a royal priesthood reigning on thrones next to God, they are not just absent observers, but active workers and servants of the Kingdom and of God. The duties of the priesthood and of co-heirs and rulers with Christ, they are given authority and power to rule with him. The priests serve those who are in need and operate priestly duties to and for God; to ruler with Christ means there is something to rule over.

For the Armenian and the Calvinist, they are quite oblivious to this fact. Some live in the false notion that once this life is over, as co-heirs with Christ, that they will be treated as God by God Who would serve them day and night. It is however, the complete opposite, the believer serves God day and night. God is not in need of anything. The only service He requires is that they love Him with their entire being, love their neighbor and a third, love one another as Christ loves them.  So the most Armenian and Calvinists believe they would be serving one another in Kingdom of Heaven as their reward, while those outside the walls are tormented and tortured perpetually as their reward. Since both the Armenian and the Calvinist deny God's providence over all mankind, they are led to assume in their imagination great evils being paid back to those who committed evils, a perpetual torment of fire without end and no hope. For the Christian Universalist who beileves in God's providence over all mankind, the picture is far different.

For the Christian Univeralist, the priesthood duty is to serve those who are in need, while those who rule rule no greater than Christ ruled. This means aionios kolasis for the wicked is administered by love by those whom the wicked rejected; that is they are being served by ministering flames. In fact, the Kingdom of God includes those nations which are outside it's walls, where the wicked were raised because all nations shall live by it's Light. Therefore, for the Christian Universalist the Lake of Fire is not a picture of perpetual torment of fire, but the army of priests, co-heirs and rulers with Christ administrating healing to the nations and bringing their glory into the walls.

In conclusion, God providence is over all mankind regardless of the choices they make because He has reconciled all mankind to Himself through the death of His Son. He does not take into account the sins of the world but rather has always provided an escape even to those who have died in their sins a unrepentant sinner. The Lake of Fire is a picture of Jesus alongside the Saints who continue the Work of God which they were created to do, healing the sick and restoring the Nations. A believer can by faith, walk in that future promise in the present reality accessing the same rights and privileges which are promised to them in the age to come by the Holy Spirit. Literally, there is no difference between the believer's duties on earth then there is in heaven, healing the sick, restoring the nations, and spreading the Good News to all mankind whether on earth, under the earth or in heaven. In the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of the Father by their own volition as a result of their free-will; meaning everyone would have both been self-determined and predestined into the Kingdom of God with no violation to either the will of man, or the will of God.

[WhiteWings]

Hi Craig,

So, according to your box, UR is some sort of mix between Armenism and Calvinism.
We have free will to choose our own path within the box; but God pushes the box over His predestined path.

I don't know much about whatever type of Christianity; so the following is no argument. More a question.
Providence is divine guide and protection. Correct? If so how can any Christian deny providence?
The whole OT is about God protecting, punishing, leading, teaching the Jewish people....

[CHB]

So, would it be reasonable to say that God knows exactly how to cause our choices to willingly conform to his will?

Absolutely!!! Nothing can be done outside the will of God. Whatever we do it is God's will or else we would not do it.

CHB

[CHB]

Therefore, since we do not always know where our choices lead us, any choice set before us is accepted by faith that it was the right choice for the situation.

If you have free will you would know where your choices lead you. Wouldn't you say God has free will? Doesn't he know ALL things? We can only chose what is set before us. And who sets these things before us, and determines what is set before us? It is God, it is ALL, to, for from, and about God. Not I, you, we, us.

CHB

[Craig]

Mainstream Christianity teaches that the wicked remain wicked and perpetually burn for the wages of their sin. Such conclusion neglects God's providence over all mankind and only over those who chose Him (Armenian) or were chosen by Him (Calvinist), while the rest are abandoned (Armenian) or never care for to begin with (Calvinist). These are the two theories in which an individual participates in salvation while staying within biblical Judeo-Christian prepositions with precedence.

Christian Universalism establishes that both God chose us, and we chose Him while His providence always remains guiding always, regardless of our bad choices, back into His Will and at the same also be the will of him who is being guided.

[Taffy]

Mainstream Christianity teaches that the wicked remain wicked and perpetually burn for the wages of their sin.

agh..such deception, for indeed the wicked Burn ,and the  wicked die, tis their "PART "in the lake...the PART being the flesh which is destroyed so the SPIRIT SHALL LIVE..

Shame Craig ,that they dont understand the the purpose of DEATH. AND WHAT ACTUALLY dies(destroyed) :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Nothing can be done outside the will of God. Whatever we do it is God's will or else we would not do it.

Care to share how you've come to this conclusion?

[WhiteWings]

Mainstream Christianity teaches that the wicked remain wicked and perpetually burn for the wages of their sin. Such conclusion neglects God's providence over all mankind and only over those who chose Him (Armenian) or were chosen by Him (Calvinist), while the rest are abandoned (Armenian) or never care for to begin with (Calvinist). These are the two theories in which an individual participates in salvation while staying within biblical Judeo-Christian prepositions with precedence.

Christian Universalism establishes that both God chose us, and we chose Him while His providence always remains guiding always, regardless of our bad choices, back into His Will and at the same also be the will of him who is being guided.

Lets keep it a bit simple. The whole Bible is a big guidebook with (indirect) words from God.
Can't we see the Bible as a lifelong guiding of God? (=providence)
What's the use of being a Calvinist? I mean a practicing Calvinist. If you are chosen you're saved whatever you do?
And why try to convert people to Calvinism if the electing is purely Gods act. Afterall the elect is already elect and the wicked are so wicked they will never listen and/or be elected anyway.

[Craig]

Therefore, since we do not always know where our choices lead us, any choice set before us is accepted by faith that it was the right choice for the situation.

If you have free will you would know where your choices lead you. Wouldn't you say God has free will? Doesn't he know ALL things? We can only chose what is set before us. And who sets these things before us, and determines what is set before us? It is God, it is ALL, to, for from, and about God. Not I, you, we, us.

CHB

Where in the definition of free-will or anything that I have provided ever tell you that you actually know where your choices lead you? There is no prerequisite to free-will to know where your choices lead you, the only prerequisite is the ability to make a choice regardless of how plentiful, limited , uncontrolled or staged those choices are. So your statement has no relevance to free-will, in order to continue, there must be consensus that your presumption of knowledge concerning where a choice leads you is required in order to have free-will.

Regardless what God has set before us, we always have a choice to obey or disobey in regards to these choices. For every situation God presents in your life, you always have a choice whether to accept it or reject it; both accepting it or rejecting it is within the knowledge of God and He is able to guide you regardless of the path you have chosen and it always returns to Him. Whether you accept it or reject is not within the will of God for any to perish, God tempts no man to sin, but He will not allow let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, if you are tempted God always provides a way out.

[Nathan]

The point to salvation is, you receive the dominion of heaven here on earth.  You manifest the glory of God . .who is spirit, here on earth . . .which is flesh.  You reproduce life through you.  You still encounter tribulation, but there is an unspeakable peace within you carrying you through the trials, maturing you further and further into the truths of God.  

Man has turned it into religion.  God is returning it back to a relationship.

Just because I believe all are saved regardless as to whether their minds have acknowledged the power, doesn't mean I take my life in Christ any less serious.

Ever been a part of saving a life?  Or protecting someone from danger?  Or coming to the aid of someone who found themselves in dire straights?  The feeling of great appreciation . . all things experienced physically are only a shadow of what it's like when being Christ who is spirit.  It makes me just want to worship him more.

The idea of just giving up and doing whatever you want to do because the concept that God is going to have his will in the end . .is such natural, carnal thinking.  This isn't about living to yourself . . .this is about dying to yourself and living in Christ.

I want to get a bumper sticker that says "It's impossible to live for Jesus"  I want to put that out on our church sign . . .If I had one that you could put messages on . . . Because the truth is, it's not about "me" it's about Christ "in" me.  I can't live for him . .there's nothing I do that he wants . .he never wanted my sacrifice.  He want's "me".  So I quit trying to live "for" him and I decided to "let" him live in me. . . .I found there's so much more freedom in it this way.

No condemnation . . . realistically . . .on these forums, I'll be the first to tell you . . .disagree with people and feel their wrath .  . .even though it states "no condemnation" seldom do we live it .  .but in Christ . .it really is what it says it is . .therefore there is NOW no condemnation . ..for who?  For those IN Christ Jesus.

[Craig]

Lets keep it a bit simple. The whole Bible is a big guidebook with (indirect) words from God.
Can't we see the Bible as a lifelong guiding of God? (=providence)
What's the use of being a Calvinist? I mean a practicing Calvinist. If you are chosen you're saved whatever you do?
And why try to convert people to Calvinism if the electing is purely Gods act. Afterall the elect is already elect and the wicked are so wicked they will never listen and/or be elected anyway.

Yes, we can see Scripture, laws of creation, the laws of nature, the lifelong guiding of God. It has many examples within it of His providence towards Israel, and all of the nations. It itself has many great words of wisdom and instances we can rely on for advice in our tough situations, again proving God's providence. God's providence is obvious to those who look for it.

There are various levels of Calvinism, some extreme and some moderate. The most common belief is there are the elect and the non-elect. The non-elect are beyond salvation because they are what they are through God's election. The elect however, are found among the non-elect, and the other elect are called to find these lost sheep. So it is not a case of conversion, it is a case of finding the other elect. Why is this important? Because within the elect, there are rewards and penalties for not living a life to God and it is the responsibility of the elect of save the lost elect the agony of loss which they did not need to experience and for every time you find a lost elect and save him, you are rewarded.  It is like having green marbles and blue marbles in a bag mixed together but only the green are the chosen marble. Your only purpose with the blue marbles is to sift through them to find the green ones and you rejoice for every green marble you find.

[CHB]

Nothing can be done outside the will of God. Whatever we do it is God's will or else we would not do it.

Care to share how you've come to this conclusion?

(Rom. 9:19) who hath resisted his will? (2Chron. 20:6)  (Dan. 4:35)

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Craig,

So actually you are saying Calvinists have lost their marbles  :pointlaugh:


(thanks for the explanations)