Tentmaker Forum

QuoteAs for Hell... well that is an emotional subject, I understand how you would feel that way. It seems harsh that God would do that. But it is my understanding that God does not take a person and just cast them into the flame. It is by that individuals actions throughout their lives, that they send themselves to hell. If a person rejects Jesus, God cannot allow them to enter into His kingdom. If He just let anyone in, He wouldn't really be much of a God would He? If everyone, no matter how they had lived on the earth, got to come to heaven, there would have been no point in sending Jesus down to earth to pay the debt for sin. What Jesus did was not an excuse for us to just run a muck and do whatever. It was a symbol of His love for us, and by His death and resurrection, we are granted salvation- all we have to do is accept it by believing in Jesus. If we don't do that then effectually we are rejecting salvation and condemning ourselves. We are saved by faith alone, not by what we do, or how good we are, and this is Gods promise to everyone.

Arm yourself with the Truth of the Word, and rely on Gods promises whether you feel them or not. Things will change I promise. Maybe not overnight, but they will change. And remember, anything that is wholesome before His eyes that you ask for, He will give it to you. If you pray for patience, He will give you situations in your life which test your patience, If you pray for strength, you will find circumstances in your life which will make you strong if you endure through them.

However this doesn't explain WHY an Omnipotent, All knowing God would create people that as was so eloquently put, "they send themselves to hell"

I believe God is all powerful and all knowing, there is no such thing as "free will"

Am checking out http://bible-truths.com/ (http://bible-truths.com/) (Ray Smith's site)

"Choosing" :BangHead: :Shoot: to send yourself seems absolutely ridiculous now, especially as one didn't even choose to be born in the first place

Thank goodness I don't see things the same way anymore, it's always seemed so preposterous to me that one can CHOOSE to send oneself to hell, my goodness, even the calvinist view makes more sense :mblush:

In other words: Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved 'cause what the Bible actually means is that Jesus came to seek and to save the pious.

Just because people are dumb, stupid sheep that readily march off of the cliff into Gehenna while they're grazing doesn't mean that the Shepherd is less obligated.  It makes Him more obligated to each of them.

QuoteIn other words: Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved 'cause what the Bible actually means is that Jesus came to seek and to save the pious.

Either the lost have absolute free will to choose their salvation or God has the absolute free will. Most churches say that the lost have the absolute free will, but this is a direct contradiction with verses like "nobody can come to me unless the heavenly father draws him" or something like that.

I don't know of any parents that are worth anything as parents who have little kids that have the free will to take in a whole bottle of pills and to wash it down with some bleach.  Free will is between what you're going to wear today, when you're going to the bathroom, and what you'll do with the temporal promises of the Word that effect your here and now.  It's not the privelege of eternally disabling yourself from the Presence of Father.

You are so right, Martin! If your child tries to do something bad, you will stop him! This man-made God looks like a parent who will allow his children to commit suicide.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 11, 2008, 12:11:11 AM
Free will is between what you're going to wear today, when you're going to the bathroom, and what you'll do with the temporal promises of the Word that effect your here and now. 

I'll have to disagree with the second thing on this list. There are times when the 'time' is not the time I would ever choose, like in my car stuck in a traffic jam while suffering from a bug which makes the time come suddenly. I really can't see how my free will comes into play on this one. Did I choose to get sick? To create a traffic jam? Did I choose the hours I had to be at work?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

blessings,
- Byron

Quote from: firstborn888 on August 11, 2008, 12:49:44 AM
I'll have to disagree with the second thing on this list. There are times when the 'time' is not the time I would ever choose, like in my car stuck in a traffic jam while suffering from a bug which makes the time come suddenly. I really can't see how my free will comes into play on this one.

:laugh2: LOL! Whoops! Point taken. It's been a few years since that's happened to me. But you just strengthened my point, Byron, that if we can scarcely choose "the day and hour" of when we're about to burst on the highway, then how on God's green earth are we sooo easily capable of damning ourselves for eternity??  Even if we could with the ease that we might accidentally damn our pants until we could throw those into a washer, Father would still have to be willing to sign off on the eternal burning plan and I don't see Him ever doing that from what I know of Him from my relationship with Him.

It is an oxymoron to say that we have no free-will and Jesus came to save the LOST. If God is all powerful and all knowing, then if any were lost, then God is not all powerful, and if any were lost, then God is not all knowing. But Jesus came to save the lost, that means everyone has free-will, they just do not have final word on their destination keeping God as all-powerful and all-knowing and we are lost.

Free-will does not mean all-powerful. Free-will does not mean all-knowing. Free-will means you have choices and the will to take those options no matter how difficult or easy the choice is. It is not self-determination, it is not omnipotence, or omniscience.

If anytime someone says, "Did I choose to get stuck in traffic," or any other such reasons to prove we don't have free-will because we did not choose to be there, they do not know what free-will is. If you get stuck in traffic here is your free-will: take out a crowbar and bash the guy next to you; try to take the next off-road ramp to the next traffic lane; sit there patiently plus a dozen or hundreds of other courses of action you can take when you find yourself stuck in traffic, you are free to make those choices. If you knew the destination of that choice would be getting stuck in traffic, you would not have choose it but since you have free-will and the inability to know everything including if your choice would get you where you want, you made the choice and got stuck in traffic, you should have taken the train.

Free-will means as a farmer you have 10 different variety of seed to plant and that is the plant you intend to grow. Whether the weather, soil, etc. allows the seed to grow, does not change the fact he had 10 different variety of seed to plant. If he plants an apple seed hoping for a orchard of grapes, that still did not change the fact he had 10 different variety of seed to plant even if he planted the wrong seed and go the wrong crop than he desired.

Free-will does not mean you know or have the power of your destination, it means you have choices on the journey.

:2c:

God knows the choices that we will make in all the situations we find ourselves in. He causes all the situations we find ourselves in. There's no doubt we have a will, but God makes us willingly do whatever is his purpose for the time. Look at the conversion of Paul. He made him willingly submit to Him by his spirit. Thus "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess" willingly, by the spirit of God. We grow in Christ by the ordained ordeals God causes to happen, already knowing the outcomes of how we respond to them. If I had free will to come to Christ, I would not need the Spirirt of God. But the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, so it's not by me I get and understand spirirtual things, but by him making me understand.

God Bless

Hi Shadow,


From my biblical perspective there is no scriptural backing for man choosing to go to hell.   There is also no scriptural backing that directly says man has  free-will.  Now, don't get me wrong, I know that not every concept in scripture has to be spoken directly for it to be there, but my main point is that we must continue to study those concepts that we may agree with now, in case our collection of scriptures to make a point are not being used quite correctly.

Me and SOtW disagree a bit on how free we really are and admittedly maybe it is just a terminology thing, but we do agree that there are not any scriptural explanations for man being in charge of his or her own eternal destiny that do not cause a contradiction.  The work around to the contradiction will always add or subtract from the scriptural wording.   A disagreement from that point on will result in a nice gesture that they hope you are listening to the Holy Spirit.   :icon_joker:    :laughing7:

In america we are free people,  but we are still bound by law,  but the difference is that American Law is not what is the guiding light unto our spiritual path and feet. 


Paul explains a bit of this controversy, in my opinion.


Ro 7:15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing.

I think Paul indeed struggled with the perception of our control while realizing the very lack of it.   Many things in scripture are relative explanations to our perspective.

We can appear to be Lost, thats how it seems,  but from how I view scripture, we are not in spiritual reality LOST, this is a path in a journey.  For how can we be Lost if God knows exactly where we are at and is directing our Feet (Proverbs 16:9)?

Paul explains the "cause" of his dilemma, even if even he may have not understood entirely the scope of our own will.

Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.  

Despite disagreements on free-will,  I believe it is safe to say that modern watered down Christianity teaches the gospel of the Magic Genie.  If you rub the lamp just right, you will be ok, but if you don't then thats your tough luck and not knowing how is never an excuse.

:)

Quote from: aspiring son on August 12, 2008, 04:48:58 AM


God knows the choices that we will make in all the situations we find ourselves in. He causes all the situations we find ourselves in. There's no doubt we have a will, but God makes us willingly do whatever is his purpose for the time. Look at the conversion of Paul. He made him willingly submit to Him by his spirit. Thus "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess" willingly, by the spirit of God. We grow in Christ by the ordained ordeals God causes to happen, already knowing the outcomes of how we respond to them. If I had free will to come to Christ, I would not need the Spirirt of God. But the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, so it's not by me I get and understand spirirtual things, but by him making me understand.

God Bless

I notice a problem that people have, they think in limited understanding by leaning on their own understanding of how things should go. It makes sense right, God is in control, He knows every choice we are going to make therefore it was the only choice we were going to make. That is linear thinking that only an finite mind can understand. People think that we have no choice, that the path we took is only an illusion of choice because that was what we were going to do anyway.

Does it boggle people's mind to think that God thinks in quantum and God knows EVERY choice to EVERY situation He has presented regardless if that choice and situation ever came up? In otherwords, God has provision for left and right, up and down, inward, outward, and beyond choice we possibly could have made or will make and that it is not set in stone until we actually have made the choice? Does it boggle people's mind that with all those organic choices that have EVERY path possible, that God knows all things in order to guide our steps?

Proverbs 5:21

For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and He examines all his paths.

Ecclesiastes 11:9

Be happy, young man, while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and whatever your eyes see, but know that for all these things God will bring you to judgment.

1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

He knows all things, including the things that are not and never will be but could have been. The reason we cannot get what we think we are choosing, is not because we are not choosing it, it is because despite all the choices and what could have nothing we can do, choose or say can bring us to that next step because first there will always be someone smarter, stronger, and wiser than us who can overrule what we chose in accordance to our will, and there are things God has not allowed us to go beyond. This is difficult, we have free-will in the habitation and boundary that we were setting in, but beyond that habitation and boundary, we have no power, no choice, only God.

Romans 8:19-21

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Hence the futility of life.

Ecclesiastes 6:1-12

There is an evil which I have seen under the sun and it is prevalent among men--a man to whom God has given riches and wealth and honor so that his soul lacks nothing of all that he desires; yet God has not empowered him to eat from them, for a foreigner enjoys them. This is vanity and a severe affliction.

All a man's labor is for his mouth and yet the appetite is not satisfied. For what advantage does the wise man have over the fool? What advantage does the poor man have, knowing how to walk before the living?

What the eyes see is better than what the soul desires this too is futility and a striving after wind.

Whatever exists has already been named, and it is known what man is; for he cannot dispute with him who is stronger than he is.

For there are many words which increase futility. What then is the advantage to a man?

For who knows what is good for a man during his lifetime, during the few years of his futile life? He will spend them like a shadow. For who can tell a man what will be after him under the sun?

Nobody willingly chooses to take the path to death, they don't realize that where they are death is inevitable and the choices we thought brought life, can actually bring death prematurely but we all have choices we are just not knowledgable and powerful enough to recognize if that was the right choice, only God is right and good.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 12, 2008, 05:51:01 AM
Hi Shadow,


From my biblical perspective there is no scriptural backing for man choosing to go to hell.   There is also no scriptural backing that directly says man has  free-will.  Now, don't get me wrong, I know that not every concept in scripture has to be spoken directly for it to be there, but my main point is that we must continue to study those concepts that we may agree with now, in case our collection of scriptures to make a point are not being used quite correctly.

Me and SOtW disagree a bit on how free we really are and admittedly maybe it is just a terminology thing, but we do agree that there are not any scriptural explanations for man being in charge of his or her own eternal destiny that do not cause a contradiction.  The work around to the contradiction will always add or subtract from the scriptural wording.   A disagreement from that point on will result in a nice gesture that they hope you are listening to the Holy Spirit.   :icon_joker:    :laughing7:

In america we are free people,  but we are still bound by law,  but the difference is that American Law is not what is the guiding light unto our spiritual path and feet. 


Paul explains a bit of this controversy, in my opinion.


Ro 7:15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing.

I think Paul indeed struggled with the perception of our control while realizing the very lack of it.   Many things in scripture are relative explanations to our perspective.

We can appear to be Lost, thats how it seems,  but from how I view scripture, we are not in spiritual reality LOST, this is a path in a journey.  For how can we be Lost if God knows exactly where we are at and is directing our Feet (Proverbs 16:9)?

Paul explains the "cause" of his dilemma, even if even he may have not understood entirely the scope of our own will.

Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.  

Despite disagreements on free-will,  I believe it is safe to say that modern watered down Christianity teaches the gospel of the Magic Genie.  If you rub the lamp just right, you will be ok, but if you don't then thats your tough luck and not knowing how is never an excuse.

:)

I agree, Paul. Sometimes debtates are simply over terms more than topics. I know God's way of thinking is far above ours. However you want to put it, my point is that it is biblically proven that man does not choose hell, just like we did not CHOOSE Him. And that's the main basis of the christendom argument on why God sends poeple to hell.

Here's yet another extremely selfish response to the question

Why did God create man if He knew some would go to hell?

QuotePreface

This provocative question comes from a Christian who is training to be a missionary. It was good to ponder this issue about my Lord Jesus Who created everything--

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

Why Were We Created?

This is a good starting point. Why were we created? Look at us--dust. What could we possibly offer God Almighty? Solomon said that the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him--He's too big, too awesome, too fantastic to be contained. We are like grasshoppers in His sight. What is man that God is mindful of him? Our answer lies in the Bible which is God's word. Let Him explain why He created us:

    ...thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Revelation 4:11

We were created for God's pleasure! Don't you know that God loves you and wants you? It was His whole purpose in creating mankind.

The Bible draws an analogy between our relationship with our earthly parents and God, our heavenly Father. Let us therefore consider why a man and his wife desire to have children: the joy of a little child, to replicate themselves through creation, to have fellowship with that little kid, to have life. God uses the family relationship to illustrate our relationship to Him, our Father in heaven.

But What About Hell?

Know ye not that hell was not created for people? God tells us who it was created for:

    ...everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Matthew 25:41

Hell was created for the devil and his angels. It was not created for man! God doesn't want anybody to go there, it was not His purpose for men to go there. God knew that we would sin so He made provision for us by coming to this earth in the form of a man and paying the penalty for our sins with His own blood.

Nonetheless, humans do indeed go there because many say as the citizens in the parable of the nobleman in Luke 19, "We will not have Him to reign over us." When such people are cast in hell, it is literally what they asked for. Nonetheless, God is not pleased that they should perish:

    For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Jeremiah 29:11

    As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die...?

Ezekiel 33:11

    The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 But Was it Fair to Create Us?

This is the bottom line in my mind--it would not have been fair for Him NOT to create us. God knew that many people would be cast in hellfire for their rebellion towards Him, but He also knew that there would be a multitude that would bask in His glory and love Him and want to be with Him forever.

Would it have been fair for me, Tracy, to miss out on knowing Jesus Christ because of the actions of the wicked? Would it have been fair for me to have been aborted of the opportunity to know my God and His pleasures forevermore? Would it have been fair for me to not have known love and bliss?

I say a resounding NO!!!! If God, in His Sovereignty had said, "There are going to be too many evil people, so I will not create man," He would have been overcome with evil! Evil would have dictated what He was going to do, would have denied life to the righteous and it would have stripped Him of His power as Lord of the Universe. Read what the scriptures say:

    Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12:21

If God had not created us, He would have been overcome with evil, for it would have dictated that the righteous would never have an opportunity to love and be loved by the One who is everlasting and full of pleasures forevermore. If the righteous were to miss out on the Magnificent God, would that be fair? That would be folly.

HOW UTTERLY SELFISH, just so YOU don't have to miss out


:mshock: :mshock: :angry1: :angry1: :angry1: :eek: :eek: :eek: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum:

Well I'd rather be annihilated than go to heaven if that's what it will be like, I don't think I could stomach the likes of you and all the others there just like you :eeew:

QuoteWould it have been fair for me, Tracy, to miss out on knowing Jesus Christ because of the actions of the wicked? Would it have been fair for me to have been aborted of the opportunity to know my God and His pleasures forevermore? Would it have been fair for me to not have known love and bliss?

I say a resounding NO!!!! If God, in His Sovereignty had said, "There are going to be too many evil people, so I will not create man," He would have been overcome with evil! Evil would have dictated what He was going to do, would have denied life to the righteous and it would have stripped Him of His power as Lord of the Universe. Read what the scriptures say:

    Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12:21
If God had not created us, He would have been overcome with evil, for it would have dictated that the righteous would never have an opportunity to love and be loved by the One who is everlasting and full of pleasures forevermore.

So he claims God will be overpowered by evil humans. (not even a trillion of the worst demons would make a scrath on God armor)
Anyhow he won't get in Heaven either then; because vanity is also a sin. (thinking he's among the cream of humanity)

English is not my first language (yeah wise guys I know it shows...  :laughing7: ) but doesn't overcome, means getting superiority or overwelm someone instead of simply destoying? Meaning He just forces His way of thinking on the one overwelmed.

"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Actually means:
"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with torment and hatred."
Make peace; send the nukes  :Shoot:

Quote from: SOtW on August 12, 2008, 06:09:32 AM
This is difficult, we have free-will in the habitation and boundary that we were setting in, but beyond that habitation and boundary, we have no power, no choice, only God.

If I may add, it becomes difficult because this freedom is not told to us so precisely in scripture it is interpreted.  I have to disagree that beyond the boundry we have no choice, because it will be God that causes those choices. It appears Saul made a free-will choice, but I suggest that the choice was the only possibility based upon how God designed Saul to react to "cause".

I do not see anything that prevents God from causing all choices.   If we equate choice to free, that is not accurate.  I do not see it so much as people that have a problem thinking about free will, it our will wants control when it really isn't there.

I think what may be over looked is that our will is also designed by God, no one else designed it.  He designed us each unique and each for a different purpose and we are designed to respond a certain way.  That responce will be a choice.

Paul understood this by knowing that he did things while knowing he shouldn't be doing them but he was doing them anyway. Like proverbs 16:9 says, our will can devise ways, and God knows all those ways,  but our choices are what get us somewhere, so if God directs our feet then the choices within some perceived boundry are our responces to Gods causes.

If God created the circumstances, then what prevents God from having designed our will to respond exactly how he intended for us to respond and our will allows us to be aware, learn and understand how God wants .

I will try not to argue with you over the word free, I just do not see that freedom in the same sense. So thats why I am writing more about the mechanism.   So to other readers if it's called free-will accuratly, so be it, I just do not perceive the mechanism of our will that way, sorry.   It is not about misunderstanding what it actually is, it is reasonable differences of opinion on how our will operates biblically.   

This lack of control is actually our freedom from  spiritually perishing.  God can cause all choices so as to be perfect in teaching us everything he intends to teach is and not having a will that is free is not bad, nor does it biblically make us robots and puppets as we think of them.



I believe you made the comment once that people could choose something that may cause them to die prematurely.  I would have to ask prematurely to what?   God had a different time for that person to die and the person chose something that God did not intend?

Quote from: Shadow on August 19, 2008, 11:27:58 PM
Here's yet another extremely selfish response to the question

Why did God create man if He knew some would go to hell?

Actually we have to be cautious in responding that way.   This is an appeal to emotion,  it is to suggest that this loving God can be subject to our feelings on the matter.  I personally have been guilty of that and have realized that many Christians are hoping that question gets asked because you will get boxed into a corner very easily.

That is why it really is more important to make the biblical case for HELL not being eternal or "from now on".   A person can discuss "what" hell is apart from the length of time that one might be there.  The two are mutually exclusive.

If God defines Love, then who are we to make Gods love what love means to us?  We will not have any control over the truth of that.  Because as humans we can disagree on what Love actually is.


The truth is,  if God actually has created some of mankind to be in hell eternally, then what difference will it make if we like it or not?   

And actually a day would come where the tears in our eyes would be wiped away because we would understand what Gods loved means and that understanding would bring Joy.


Yes, that sounds rather twisted thinking we can have Joy while people are suffering, but like I said, removing the emotion and dilegently studying scripture and translations , hebrew and greek usage and the history of those languages  is the most productive way to battle that.

Would it help if we then said . . .you can choose to be out of God's will . . .but you're never out of God's PLAN.??  You have the freedom to make all the personal choices you desire . .even ones that stunt your growth and affect your testimony to others, but no matter what choices you make, you'll always be forever "in" God's plan . . which is that every knee will bow . . .every tongue confess . . .

I'm curious now where our traditions came up with the idea that it's only during this short time on earth that we have the opportunity to make an eternal decision for life.  I thought this was the ONLY way to see truth . .but now that I understand UR . . . I can't remember what it was that convinced me of the traditional belief.

Quote from: Nathan on August 20, 2008, 05:36:05 PM
Would it help if we then said . . .you can choose to be out of God's will . . .but you're never out of God's PLAN.??  You have the freedom to make all the personal choices you desire . .even ones that stunt your growth and affect your testimony to others, but no matter what choices you make, you'll always be forever "in" God's plan . . which is that every knee will bow . . .every tongue confess . . .

It is a good way of putting it, but I don't know if it helps. There are people who believe that we were pre-scripted to act, behave, think and speak like we are and that we are not rational sentient beings, but clay animation set up by God.

QuoteI'm curious now where our traditions came up with the idea that it's only during this short time on earth that we have the opportunity to make an eternal decision for life.  I thought this was the ONLY way to see truth . .but now that I understand UR . . . I can't remember what it was that convinced me of the traditional belief.

I was reading some debates from 200 AD by a bunch of the early church father's. Some of the traditions they discussed at length, really have nothing to do with Christianity today but in their day it was somehow important. Like if eating meat sacrificed to the Roman gods, was acceptable practice among Christians. When I decided to read what eating meat sacrificed to gods meant to these guys, it is similar to the practice that Jews and Muslims do concerning their meat, draining it of all blood and praying over it. So is it acceptable for a Christian to eat ceremoniously clean foods prepared by Jews or Muslims? They came up with really crazy problems which could come out of doing so, that absolutely don't have any relevance to Christianity at all.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 20, 2008, 01:05:17 AM

Quote from: Shadow on August 19, 2008, 11:27:58 PM
Here's yet another extremely selfish response to the question

Why did God create man if He knew some would go to hell?

Actually we have to be cautious in responding that way.   This is an appeal to emotion,  it is to suggest that this loving God can be subject to our feelings on the matter.  I personally have been guilty of that and have realized that many Christians are hoping that question gets asked because you will get boxed into a corner very easily.

I understand what you wrote Paul. I even agree with it. But I think it's an incomplete truth. The Bible is partly about direct worship of God. But also partly about kind behavior toward fellow humans. And by that you inderectly worship God too.
Jesus thaught it was ok to save a goat from drowning on Sabbath. Only goats? Or also humans and other animals?
Personally I believe Jesus was talking about saving every living creature from drowning. Is that extra-Biblical?
God made it clear He's against sex with animals. Would you even bother to reply if I would say in Hell God forces us to have sex with animals? Do you think there is a possibility that God has sex with animals? I guess not. But why? Can you point me to a verse that states God doesn't do that? I think you can't. But indirectly it's very clear God wouldn't even consider that. So if God keeps going on and on about love to everything on this planet can't we conclude from that that God won't torture? IMHO the Bible is about learning a peaceful state of mind. Not a competition on stating verses.

I hope the above makes sense to at least 1 person  :laughing7:

You make sense. That is the two commandments: "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself." So many people get so caught up in the first commandment that they neglect the second commandment.

Quote from: SOtW on August 20, 2008, 06:08:43 PM
You make sense. That is the two commandments: "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself." So many people get so caught up in the first commandment that they neglect the second commandment.

Or they'll consider the first as their moral obligation to break the second one.

hence neglecting the second.

Indeed Craig.

Someone could argue God is better/greater/etc/etc so love towards Him overrules the one toward humans.
But both are equal. Not meaning God is equal to humans. But both rules are equally important because both are from God. Like I wrote elsewhere if someone has problems combining two verses they should rethink their doctrine because they are accusing God of inperfect writing.

Hi, Whitewings


I can't disagree with most of what you wrote on what we should try to find in the bible, but what I am saying is that the emotional point does not define truth. Sure as we learn and grow we understand that there is more than memorizing, comparing and listing scripture.

However, learning to believe that scripture depicts a God who will not allow anyone to be in hell does need some level of scriptural knowledge.  When you have that knowledge you do not have to play with people who pull out the emotion card about Gods righteousness.


Once you enter the emotional arena, if you do not have the necessary scripture, you cannot really say that eternity in hell is unjust.    Love they neighbor as thyself.   This really has no bearing on the hell argument because Christians divide the bible between  "unbelievers"  and those who choose of their own free-will to believe.

So my post has to do with the counter arguments towards the way Christians divide and interpret the bible,  not how we as universalists may discuss the love of God which typically is different than the way ETers will view it.

They will say that the love thy neighbor as thyself only applies to believers and unbelievers are refusing God so God loves them, but the unbeliever must "choose" that love to be a part of Gods plan, and for that reason hell is just.

I hope that helps understand where I was coming from better.

I agree emotional appeals are not reasons for anything. Appeals to Emotion for the truth are as appeals to imagination for the truth. They are not reliable or accurate even if there are elements of truth in emotion and imagination.

Paul,

I fully understand. Even at my first reply.
Yes ETs understand thinks differently. So you can indeed refute them with verses. That's the most direct way. But reading pneuma's thread (Matt Slick) that doesn't seem to work either.

For me the 10 commandments are not "This is my law and I want you to keep to it."
No it is "This is my personality and I would love if you would do the same."
So the Bible is a lawbook but also Gods autobiography.

That said I fully understand the practical problems of using what I wrote in a discussion.

Quote from: SOtW on August 21, 2008, 12:27:45 AM
I agree emotional appeals are not reasons for anything. Appeals to Emotion for the truth are as appeals to imagination for the truth. They are not reliable or accurate even if there are elements of truth in emotion and imagination.

Do you have personal emotions Craig?
Or are the just given to you by God/HS? If yes aren't your emotions derived from the word of God?
That said it's extremely hard to make a point based on emotions because they can't be proved. An oppossing emotion is also an emotion.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2008, 12:38:53 AM

Quote from: SOtW on August 21, 2008, 12:27:45 AM
I agree emotional appeals are not reasons for anything. Appeals to Emotion for the truth are as appeals to imagination for the truth. They are not reliable or accurate even if there are elements of truth in emotion and imagination.

Do you have personal emotions Craig?

Yes. However, my personal emotions are subjectively based on my personal interpretations. If my emotions are subjective, then my personal emotions are not always in line with what is objectively true. Therefore, to make a conclusion on what is true based on personal emotion may or may not be objectively true. Therefore in order to know what is true, we are to go beyond our emotion and to something deeper, unity in the faith and knowledge of the Truth.

QuoteOr are the just given to you by God/HS? If yes aren't your emotions derived from the word of God?

.

If my emotions are given to me by God/HS, then they will have other witnesses to the Truth than just the emotions I am feeling. When my emotions are derived from the Word of God, then I did not come to the conclusion based on my emotions, I came to the conclusion based on the Word of God, which prompted me emotionally because of the truthful conclusion.

QuoteThat said it's extremely hard to make a point based on emotions because they can't be proved. An oppossing emotion is also an emotion.

Emotion is not the assurance things hoped for, nor is it the conviction of things not seen. That is faith. Yet, so many Christians live by emotion, not faith, and therefore continually remain infants being thrown to and fro by every circumstance, doctrine, belief and every evil scheme of man, and we are not to be infants any longer, but mature men acquainted with the teachings of righteousness able to discern and distinguish between good and evil and in fact be teachers of it. When we were infants we thought as infants, but when I became a man, I put the childish things behind me. (Ephesians 4:14, 1 Corinthians 13:11, Hebrews 5:12-14)

So yes, I have personal emotion, I am passionate and have much zeal. My personal emotion does not dictate what is true, my passion does not dictate what is true, my zeal does not dictate what is true. It is not good to have emotion, passion, zeal without knowledge because even if I have emotion, passion, zeal for God, if it is not based on knowledge, I will begin to wander and lose the way and establish my own righteousness which is not God's. (Psalms 19:2, Romans 10:1-3)

Remember Love is not an emotion ;)

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 20, 2008, 01:05:17 AM


Actually we have to be cautious in responding that way.   This is an appeal to emotion,  it is to suggest that this loving God can be subject to our feelings on the matter.  I personally have been guilty of that and have realized that many Christians are hoping that question gets asked because you will get boxed into a corner very easily.

That is why it really is more important to make the biblical case for HELL not being eternal or "from now on".   A person can discuss "what" hell is apart from the length of time that one might be there.  The two are mutually exclusive.

If God defines Love, then who are we to make Gods love what love means to us?  We will not have any control over the truth of that.  Because as humans we can disagree on what Love actually is.


The truth is,  if God actually has created some of mankind to be in hell eternally, then what difference will it make if we like it or not?   

And actually a day would come where the tears in our eyes would be wiped away because we would understand what Gods loved means and that understanding would bring Joy.


Yes, that sounds rather twisted thinking we can have Joy while people are suffering, but like I said, removing the emotion and dilegently studying scripture and translations , hebrew and greek usage and the history of those languages  is the most productive way to battle that.

Yes you are quite right, I shouldn't have been so emotional about it :mblush:

My problem is I'm not entirely convinced of universal salvation, although wish with all my heart that it's true (My main reason being I'm not unconvinced about ET)

I'm getting there though, there are a few things I don't believe in anymore (thanks to Ray's teaching on bible-truths mainly free will


Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few chosen.

Joh 15:16  You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you.

Act 9:15  And the Lord said to him, Go, for this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.


BTW that article came from an ET site which believes in free will - You must choose God and Christ (This particular site, has a whole page dedicated to exposing false teachers, ironically most of those ministries being criticized believe in ET themselves)

However if universal salvation isn't true what are the alternatives

Calvinism
Arminianism

Which ever way you look at it, you can't escape the fact that God in His Sovereignty foreknew everything that would happen, before the world was ever created so he would have known who would have accepted Christ long before they were ever born

If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

I will continue to search for the truth, as logically universalism makes the most sense, I just hope its right :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2008, 09:08:28 PM

Yes you are quite right, I shouldn't have been so emotional about it :mblush:

Forgive me if that came across as harsh.   I did not intend for my words to say that you were "being" emotional in a negative sense.  I only meant that the path that line of reasoning takes appears logical but still is rooted in how we feel about something.     I feel things about all of this,  but that does not make it true or untrue.

I really have a hard time myself with universalism from time to time.   I am a very self reflective person for whatever reason and I do revisit my beliefs.  I do often contemplate, what if ET is true, then am I indeed leading people into hell and myself as well?   Or am I leading more into hell only to one day understand the justice of it?  hmmmmm 

I have resolved that if ET is true, and if I am the master of where I go and can indeed choose Hell, then I choose it this day.   I do not care about saving myself as if I am guilty of leading people to a place of eternal torture where a God offers no hope then I will suffer with my brothers and sisters that I helped put there.

Otherwise, though,  I have studied scripture,  its specific wording, and the meanings and usages of greek and hebrew within those scriptures enough to be confident that Gods Character will not allow anyone to remain apart from him forever.   I also realize and see the path that got me here and I did not choose of my free-will to get here.  I was literally dragged and my testamony verifies it.

Quote

However if universal salvation isn't true what are the alternatives

Calvinism
Arminianism

From a biblical perspective,  thats about it.

Quote
If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

Sometimes trying to resolve something that appears illogical indeed ends up being that way from scriptural fact.  :)

Quote
I will continue to search for the truth, as logically universalism makes the most sense, I just hope its right :HeartThrob:

Thats all I am after,   truth.   Rock on.   :)

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 22, 2008, 06:31:16 AM

Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2008, 09:08:28 PM
I will continue to search for the truth, as logically universalism makes the most sense, I just hope its right :HeartThrob:

Thats all I am after,   truth.   Rock on.   :)

Amen!

Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2008, 09:08:28 PM
My problem is I'm not entirely convinced of universal salvation, although wish with all my heart that it's true (My main reason being I'm not unconvinced about ET)

I got a revelation of UR in 2001, and I started preaching and teaching it that year, both offline and online.  Took three and a half years to finally get rid of all of the ET from my thinking and my emotions to where at last there was no other possible outcome except for the Universal Restoration.  I blew through books on it during that time period the way that chain smokers blow through cigarettes.  For me, it was a process because I'd had ET crammed into my system since my prenatal year. (I wasn't just bottle fed ET.  It went further back than that to be as full of that as I was!)  Just focus on every promise in the Bible regarding it and spend time each day reading 'em aloud as a part of your devotional/prayer time.  It's based on specific promises of the Word and not just proving the correct translation of certain passages in the KJV or other translations where the eternal negative is usually derived by uninformed ministries.  Hebrews 6 says that His counsel is unchangeable.  He swore by Himself and He's not going to be a hypocrite in taking His own Name in vain by proving to be a fraud where this is concerned.  His Name is on the line, as well as the Body and Blood of Christ that this oath was sworn in. 

When Israel was about to go after the promised land, I believe that it's Deuteronomy chapter 1 that says that the seed of Abraham were already at that time as the sand by the sea and as the stars of heaven in number, but Moses spoke a thousand-fold blessing -- which surely has to include every other nation either becoming Abraham's seed or being blessed by Abraham's seed.  The book of Hebrews says that the New Testament is a better covenant established upon better promises.  Better than a thousand-fold blessing of those that were already as the sand by the sea and as the stars of heaven in multitude?  Whatever else that means, additionally, it doesn't include the loss of a single person you've ever known in person or by reputation!

I sometimes wonder how those who say to believe 100% in UR are under pressure.
(for now just ignore the following isn't Biblically correct)

I picture the White Throne Judgement. Jesus/God sitting in an immense courtroom and all humanity waiting in line to be judged. Some have to stand in line for months and see 90% being kicked into the pit of doom.
I wonder how many UR people can still hold 100% to their belief?
"Did Jesus really gave us a free ride? Isn't ET right because the most precious things have the highest price."
"Was WhiteWings rightfully confused by all the riddles in the Bible?"
"Was the S of the HS I always talked with the S of Spirit or the S of Satan? Was I decieved?"

There is a passage in Scripture that talks about one who puts their hand to the plow, to not look back . . . Let me encourage you . . .I'm as new to UR as you are, but let me encourage you . . don't look back.  There is a softness of spirit in this belief . . . people who have given themselves wholly over to the idea of UR have found a greater love for others and more grace with others, than those who are firmly in ET (which by the way, I know what group of people that is, just not aware of what the acronym means).

Jesus is in the deep, calling what is deep within us . . .we're not to cautiously wade in the shallows until our minds are secure in "knowing" this is the right direction.  This is not faith.  You've heard a sound that is different from the noise. . .follow that sound.  It brought you here . . .it'll get you there . . . but when you embrace this and then look back in wonder, it affects your ability to grow in this.  It creates a double-mindedness in you that is of no value to anyone. 

Your mind wants every question answered before you commit.  God wants you to commit before he answers every question.  And you gotta know by now . . . this arena is vast, there are no outer limits here like there were in the other belief system.  It's not just UR . .  it's beyond UR.  There's to much that I see that I know I was wrong on, to think that "parts" of what I used to believe may be still right.  Let go of all of it  . . .and let God rebuild you from the ground up.  It's not your spirit that is warning you that this may lead you into a cult . .it's your religious mind . . . Christ has set you free . . not just free . .but FREE INDEED. . . . live in the freedom . . .know that religion has lied to you about pretty much everything. 

Pursue Christ and don't look back.

Quotethan those who are firmly in ET (which by the way, I know what group of people that is, just not aware of what the acronym means).

ET= Eternal Torment

You might be as new to UR as I'm but somehow I think your Biblical foundation is far far more solid than mine.

If you are my brother in Christ, the Word in you is as solid as the Word in me :grin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2008, 08:56:25 AM
I sometimes wonder how those who say to believe 100% in UR are under pressure.
(for now just ignore the following isn't Biblically correct)

I picture the White Throne Judgement. Jesus/God sitting in an immense courtroom and all humanity waiting in line to be judged. Some have to stand in line for months and see 90% being kicked into the pit of doom.
I wonder how many UR people can still hold 100% to their belief?
"Did Jesus really gave us a free ride? Isn't ET right because the most precious things have the highest price."
"Was WhiteWings rightfully confused by all the riddles in the Bible?"
"Was the S of the HS I always talked with the S of Spirit or the S of Satan? Was I decieved?"

Could you clarify what your trying to say here?  What pressure are you talking about?

I am not sure how to respond to your analogy.   Not because I do not picture what you wrote,  but because of being asked to ignore whether it is biblical or not.

If I ask you: "Paul, are you 100% convinced of UR?" your answer likely will be a clear yes.

You die and stand before Gods throne. Your are number 5 billion in line to be judged.
You see that God is angry towards teh majority of people and throws them into the fire.
Would you think "Wow, I can't wait before God sends me to heaven"
Or would you think "Am I really elected? Perhaps Matt Slick was right afterall"

I said not Biblical because God will likely judge billions in a microsecond. It won't take him months or years to complet that task.

I hope this clears it up a little.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2008, 06:37:15 PM
If I ask you: "Paul, are you 100% convinced of UR?" your answer likely will be a clear yes.

You die and stand before Gods throne. Your are number 5 billion in line to be judged.
You see that God is angry towards teh majority of people and throws them into the fire.
Would you think "Wow, I can't wait before God sends me to heaven"
Or would you think "Am I really elected? Perhaps Matt Slick was right afterall"

I said not Biblical because God will likely judge billions in a microsecond. It won't take him months or years to complet that task.

I hope this clears it up a little.

I am convinced of UR, I am not convinced that we avoid judgment.   I do not really argue the specifics of where or when that judgment happens because it doesn't really matter.   Will knowing when it happens change me?   I already know something may happen, yet that is not motivation for my to change my ways.  Fear was never one either.  Usually when I change I can look back and see the sequence of events to see that God changed me.   So, when I see other people that reject Jesus now, why would they really be different.  Do they have to make the choice within a certain religious time frame, but God drags me around so that my choices to believe are caused?    I think its just not their time yet. 

I fully expect to die with some kind of sin / deception / evil within my heart because I cannot and/or don't want to follow ALL the commandments.

So likely my thoughts standing in line in your specific scenario would be,  oh boy, this is gonna sting a little.   

Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2008, 09:08:28 PM
If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

Another "Bingo"

Emotions aside, how the Father treats us is the biggest indicator to how He treats (and thinks of) everyone else. Since I was not 'saved' in church and not dangled over hell then I have no clue to how that is supposed to genuinely lead someone to knowing God (which is salvation). 

I had no clue what 'repentence' was. He came to me and revealed His overwhelming love and knowledge of abundant life and it was over - I was just stunned.

I did immediately see my selfishness and longed to be more like Him but it was clear that He had the same good intentions toward me before and after.  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: firstborn888 on August 25, 2008, 07:36:40 AM

Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2008, 09:08:28 PM
If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

Another "Bingo"

Hey, wait a minute, you say "if universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever". Where did you get that from? I'll tell you, your getting that from the scriptures aren't you, that few will find the gate and the way which leads to life, cause otherwise, you would say something like "if universalism isn't true, then how many are going to be saved" or something like that. Just sayin...think long and hard on what you said there. :Whistle:

Matthew 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 25, 2008, 11:18:32 AM



Hey, wait a minute, you say "if universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever". Where did you get that from? I'll tell you, your getting that from the scriptures aren't you, that few will find the gate and the way which leads to life, cause otherwise, you would say something like "if universalism isn't true, then how many are going to be saved" or something like that. Just sayin...think long and hard on what you said there. :Whistle:

Matthew 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You partly answered your own question with the scripture you quoted

Also

Rev 13:7  And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them." And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21
Rev 13:8  And all those dwelling in the earth will worship it, those of whom the names had not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb having been slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9  If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10  If anyone gathers captivity, into captivity he goes. If anyone will kill by a sword, by a sword he must be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If universal salvation isn't true then it's irrelevant whether predestination or free will is the truth when you read Rev 13.8 to Rev 13.10, if hell is true then it can only mean this

Predestination – God didn't want everyone to be saved, only an elect few

Self-Destination – God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their own free will

Which ever way you look at it though, Rev 13.8 - 13.10  clearly states that the final outcome is clearly known by God and cannot be changed

Conclusion: if universal salvation isn't true then God didn't love or care about all mankind to save them all

Quote from: Shadow on August 25, 2008, 11:56:07 AM

Conclusion: if universal salvation isn't true then God didn't love or care about all mankind to save them all

There you go again. You just keep hitting the nail square on the head over and over...

QuoteFree will – God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their own free will

That is not what free-will means, so your conclusion is not true. Free-will does not mean self-determination, or self-destination, if that be the case there would be no phrase called, 'self-determination' of 'self-destination' in the first place. Free-will is the ability to make choices when they are present and choose between them, nobody has the ability to choose what has already been done for them. So stop polluting it the same way some Christian pollute it, start using it correctly and say what is true.

This is how your parody should have been phrased.

Self-Determination - God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their free will.

Or

Self-Destination - God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their free will.

The presumption of Self-Determination and Self-Destination in Free-will should not be applied to Free-Will. Free-Will is just the description of the type of will human's have. We are rational, emotional beings with the capacity to learn and expand through the choices we make, that is what Free-Will means.

So once again, if you wanted to be communicating what is true, this should have been your objection.

QuotePredestination – God didn't want everyone to be saved, only an elect few.

Self-destination– God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their own free will.

Which ever way you look at it though, Rev 13.8 - 13.10  clearly states that the final outcome is clearly known by God and cannot be changed

Conclusion: if universal salvation isn't true then God didn't love or care about all mankind to save them all

This is not a contention on words, this correcting the usage of words. Just like we correct the usage of the word "Aionios" from being perpetual without end to age-abiding.

I was answering it in the context as in the Free-will (Armininism) doctrine, which says that God made man a "free moral agent" where people have to "choose" Christ in order to be saved, In other words You send yourselves to hell by not "choosing" Christ

The point I was trying to make was God is Totally Sovereign and has complete foreknowledge of everything, long before it ever happens

QuoteSo stop polluting it the same way some Christian pollute it, start using it correctly and say what is true.

You could put that in a far more diplomatic way, as I was not intentionally polluting it as you say, I'm just trying to point out that the outcome is the same if you believe in ET whether you believe in predestination or free will

I have corrected the previous post I made, and won't be making any further posts until I know more about UR, maybe I should never have started this topic :sigh:

Quote from: Shadow
The point I was trying to make was God is Totally Sovereign and has complete foreknowledge of everything, long before it ever happens

I agree completely. We humans do not have free will, it is impossible.

CHB

Shadow,

QuoteI have corrected the previous post I made, and won't be making any further posts until I know more about UR, maybe I should never have started this topic

Don't stop posting.

I thought, felt, and believed I was more than diplomatic about words being used incorrectly, my apologies if it was short of this.Words being used incorrectly cause confusion and bring into contention what is true. If you took offense, I apologize but this is the second time in this thread I had witness incorrect usage of free-will.

Using 'Free Moral Agent', or 'Self-Determination' or 'Self-Destination' in which our free-will is a means to this end, is the  correct communication, substituting these ends with free-will pollutes the word and causes confusion. In other words, "Free Moral Agent" says our destination is determined by Free-Will. Self-determination says our destination is determined by Free-Will. Neither Free Moral Agent, nor Self-Determination is Free-will because it is a logical fallacy, it is like saying, tools is the process of building a house using tools when in fact you meant, construction.

That is all. There is confusion already in the word Free-Will, it is best not repeat the confusion by using the Presupposition of Free-Will in place with the proposition of Free-Will, that is all.

Quote from: CHB on August 25, 2008, 08:19:22 PM

Quote from: Shadow
The point I was trying to make was God is Totally Sovereign and has complete foreknowledge of everything, long before it ever happens

I agree completely. We humans do not have free will, it is impossible.

CHB

We do have free-will, we do not have Free Moral Agency or Self Determination. If I am going to correct Shadow, I have to correct you as well. :P

I personally think there is a big difference between foreknowledge and predestination.

I have the freedom to live for, or against God . . .I do not have the freedom to choose my eternal end.  I can forgo the lake of fire by "choosing" to let Christ transform me now.  I can walk out of God's will . . .but never out of his plan.


Correction is best applied when given in tenderness as opposed to firmness.

Quote from: Nathan on August 25, 2008, 09:37:00 PM
I have the freedom to live for, or against God . . .I do not have the freedom to choose my eternal end.  I can forgo the lake of fire by "choosing" to let Christ transform me now.  I can walk out of God's will . . .but never out of his plan.

Correct. Free-will in tact, self-determination and free moral agent is destroyed.

Quote
Correction is best applied when given in tenderness as opposed to firmness.

Correct again. However there was no need for that comment.

I gave it in what I thought, believed, and felt was tenderness because this is not the first time it was corrected. She did not feel so, so I apologized and re-emphesized it to recognize it was out of tenderness. 

You are showing yourself to be rather suspicious in how you gain favor, Nathan. If you had been fair, you would have also added there are also people who do not like to be corrected no matter how it is done.

Correcting a correction . . .you're killing me!!! :laughing7:

We can also find instances where tenderness is not always the proper application of correction.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 25, 2008, 10:12:57 PM
We can also find instances where tenderness is not always the proper application of correction.

Thank-you Paul for the voice of reason.

Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2008, 09:08:28 PM


My problem is I'm not entirely convinced of universal salvation, although wish with all my heart that it's true (My main reason being I'm not unconvinced about ET)

I'm getting there though, there are a few things I don't believe in anymore (thanks to Ray's teaching on bible-truths mainly free will


Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few chosen.

Joh 15:16  You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you.

Act 9:15  And the Lord said to him, Go, for this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.


BTW that article came from an ET site which believes in free will - You must choose God and Christ (This particular site, has a whole page dedicated to exposing false teachers, ironically most of those ministries being criticized believe in ET themselves)

However if universal salvation isn't true what are the alternatives

Calvinism
Arminianism

Which ever way you look at it, you can't escape the fact that God in His Sovereignty foreknew everything that would happen, before the world was ever created so he would have known who would have accepted Christ long before they were ever born

If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

I will continue to search for the truth, as logically universalism makes the most sense, I just hope its right :HeartThrob:

Shadow - have you been reading my mind??  :thinking: These exact thoughts go through my mind sometimes. I've been into UR for almost a year now. Like you, I want it to be true, but some days I do have doubts. When those doubts come, my train of thought goes something like yours. This morning I was thinking if ET is true, then I'll have to believe in some version of Calvinism or Armenianism and that's where ET falls apart. I have found that the "pillars" of hell are much easier to disprove than hell itself. Once you remove the pillars (free will, age of accoutability, predestined to be damned, errouneous translations, immortal soul, etc.), then hell is left sitting on very thin ice.

Quote from: Shadow on August 19, 2008, 11:27:58 PM

:mshock: :mshock: :angry1: :angry1: :angry1: :eek: :eek: :eek: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum:

This is one of the cool-est set/order of emoticons I have ever seen. Wow.

Quote from: Nathan
I have the freedom to live for, or against God . . .I do not have the freedom to choose my eternal end.  I can forgo the lake of fire by "choosing" to let Christ transform me now.  I can walk out of God's will . . .but never out of his plan.

Nathan,

You say you "have the freedom to live for, or against God". How did you gain this freedom? Did this freedom come from yourself or was it God working in you that caused you to choose? If this freedom came from you and had nothing to do with God, then you have free will but if God had anything to do with you choosing then you do not have free will. 

What do you mean you "can walk out of God's will?"  If this is true, then doesn't that make you more powerful than God? I thought everything that was done was within God's will?   

CHB   :happy3:

ok, rather than trying to argue over terms I have a couple of questions just so I can learn to understand this point of view a little better.  I have not had reason to question my own as of yet,  so far it is a view of terms that gets in the way.

I am going to ask the question using the term free will because I cannot think of any other way to ask it.

If we do not have a choice to determine our eternal end, then what exactly takes place that keeps this free-will concerning our choices intact when God decides our eternal end despite our will.

Hmmm . . .now you're making me think . . .I hate that.  Okay . . . as far as the freedom to choose to live for or against God . . .Scripture states that God is working in me both to will and to do his good pleasure . . . but if I "rebel" then I "can" walk out of his will.  How many people have we seen come to Christ, have a religious experience and then eventually, quit going to church, quit reading the Bible, quit growing in the Lord . . . is God working in them still?  Or did they begin walking according to their flesh rather than their spirit.

Paul even stated that there is a battle within him constantly to try to do that which is right . .but he can't . . .and not to do what is bad . . .and he does . . .is "that" God working in Paul?  God does give man the ability to choose, the ability to make a conscious decsion as to which voice to listen to.  He desires we follow the voice of the Spirit, but he doesn't force us to when we choose otherwise.  It's not that God "can't" it's that God "let's" us choose our path, but as far as us choosing our end . .no, that we don't have because if it were left up to us . .we'd screw that up to.

It's like taking your dog to Africa . . .and turning him loose . . .he'd run and run for a while . . and no matter how far he went or what direction he chose, he'd still be in Africa.

God has turned man loose on this earth.  We have the freedom to decide if we want to cover as much ground as possible, or if we set up camp and stay in one place the entire time.  If we pursue Christ in Truth, or if we're content with where we aren't.  But in the end, Grace abounds.

To me, walking out of God's will doesn't make you more powerful, it just makes your life more painful.  It's not saying your mind is more powerful than God at all.  God's "will" is his desire, but he doesn't enforce his desires on us if we're not willing.

Looking at the four soils again . .they are the Word of God . . They are God's will . .but only one of them comes into the fulfilled purpose, the other three were discarded by the choices of men . . .but that doesn't make men stronger than God.  Make any sense?

Quote from: Nathan on August 26, 2008, 01:57:03 AM
Hmmm . . .now you're making me think . . .I hate that.  Okay . . . as far as the freedom to choose to live for or against God . . .Scripture states that God is working in me both to will and to do his good pleasure . . . but if I "rebel" then I "can" walk out of his will.  How many people have we seen come to Christ, have a religious experience and then eventually, quit going to church, quit reading the Bible, quit growing in the Lord . . . is God working in them still?  Or did they begin walking according to their flesh rather than their spirit.

Paul even stated that there is a battle within him constantly to try to do that which is right . .but he can't . . .and not to do what is bad . . .and he does . . .is "that" God working in Paul?  God does give man the ability to choose, the ability to make a conscious decsion as to which voice to listen to.  He desires we follow the voice of the Spirit, but he doesn't force us to when we choose otherwise.  It's not that God "can't" it's that God "let's" us choose our path, but as far as us choosing our end . .no, that we don't have because if it were left up to us . .we'd screw that up to.

It's like taking your dog to Africa . . .and turning him loose . . .he'd run and run for a while . . and no matter how far he went or what direction he chose, he'd still be in Africa.

God has turned man loose on this earth.  We have the freedom to decide if we want to cover as much ground as possible, or if we set up camp and stay in one place the entire time.  If we pursue Christ in Truth, or if we're content with where we aren't.  But in the end, Grace abounds.

To me, walking out of God's will doesn't make you more powerful, it just makes your life more painful.  It's not saying your mind is more powerful than God at all.  God's "will" is his desire, but he doesn't enforce his desires on us if we're not willing.

Looking at the four soils again . .they are the Word of God . . They are God's will . .but only one of them comes into the fulfilled purpose, the other three were discarded by the choices of men . . .but that doesn't make men stronger than God.  Make any sense?

See this is what we agree on.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 26, 2008, 01:45:00 AM

ok, rather than trying to argue over terms I have a couple of questions just so I can learn to understand this point of view a little better.  I have not had reason to question my own as of yet,  so far it is a view of terms that gets in the way.

I am going to ask the question using the term free will because I cannot think of any other way to ask it.

If we do not have a choice to determine our eternal end, then what exactly takes place that keeps this free-will concerning our choices intact when God decides our eternal end despite our will.

The boundaries of our habitation. I drew this up last night knowing it would come up. Click on the image below

So let me explain the image:
The Blue Square is your life.
The Blue Square is your boundary and habitation that God has placed you.
Free-will exists only in the blue square.
You are a star in the middle, you can only move outward towards the end of the blue square.
God's Sovereignty is over all, the blue square and the white square.


Now you are born within the boundaries and habitation in which God has placed you. Beyond these boundaries, you have no choice, regardless of your path, whether up, down, left, or right, you always end up at the end of the boundary and habitation in which God placed you. You have no choice in the blue square in which you were put, it also doesn't matter where in the square you go, you always end up where God wants you at the end. Upon growing to the end of your boundary and habitation, you will still exit the blue square, and enter the white square where God wants you.

At any time, God can alter the shape of the blue square, thus limiting the choices you have, at any time God can pick you up and put you somewhere else in the blue square, this is because God is sovereign over all things and is in view of all your paths within the blue square. Having limited choices and being moved to one side to the other, does not negate free-will within the blue square, it just limits the amount of choices you have to travel in that blue square.

So, would it be reasonable to say that God knows exactly how to cause our choices to willingly conform to his will?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 26, 2008, 04:56:41 AM
So, would it be reasonable to say that God knows exactly how to cause our choices to willingly conform to his will?

[As I was pondering how to answer you Paul, I just felt the Spirit of God and just began to write. Take it or leave it, this is what resulted.]

I affirm that God is all knowing, all present, all seeing and all powerful. Therefore it is possible that God knows exactly how to cause our choices to willingly conform to His will. To have the ability to make choices and learn from them, which is called the freedom of will (free-will), does not make us all knowing, all present, all seeing and all powerful. Therefore, since we do not always know where our choices lead us, any choice set before us is accepted by faith that it was the right choice for the situation. At the same time because we do not always know where our choices lead us, if there was one who was all powerful and all knowing, He could direct the path to His desired destination. This gives the illusion of self-determination, in which one chooses the path they are on; and since no man knows the future, he could never say he did not choose to be there. In fact, he did chose it but it did not go as he expected at the time he had chose.

This is the purest truth which both logically Calvinists and Armenians believe and the folly of their conclusions. The Armenian say the person choose the path they are on, while the Calvinist say God is the one who chose their path, one believes in self-determination and other in predestination. Both the Armenian and Calvinist deny God's providence in both cases. If you include God's providence over all mankind, then you naturally have no other conclusion than to be a Christian Univeralist.

Now this system God has designed at a glance does not address evil and those who during and at the end of their life, end in evil. The reason the Armenian believes in self-determination and the Calvinist believes in dual predestination is because there are men who have chosen or become very evil and do very evil things without any sign of change or repentance. The Armenian says evil is a result of man's self-determination, series of choices contrary to what is good leads men who choses evil has chosen his evil destination; the Calvinist says that this is due to God predestination that some shall be evil and so arrive at their evil destination. In fact, this is some of the biggest hurdles for a Christian Universalist to explain.

For a Christian Universalist, this problem of evil presents an even greater concern since it is obvious that there are evil people doing evil things who die in their sin and in the evil that they have done. If by God's providence all mankind is being guided to salvation and eternal life, then it can assumed that Christian Univeralism is wrong in his belief and either Armenianism or Calvinism is correct; that is of course, is only if our hope is only for this life we live. There is something more beyond this life and it's choices which are within God's providence, it is the resurrection of the dead. This is a literal second life after judgment for all mankind, aionios zoe for the righteous and reign with God and aionios kolasis for the wicked who are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The duties and work of a believer does not end at their physical death, in fact they into full measure. As a royal priesthood reigning on thrones next to God, they are not just absent observers, but active workers and servants of the Kingdom and of God. The duties of the priesthood and of co-heirs and rulers with Christ, they are given authority and power to rule with him. The priests serve those who are in need and operate priestly duties to and for God; to ruler with Christ means there is something to rule over.

For the Armenian and the Calvinist, they are quite oblivious to this fact. Some live in the false notion that once this life is over, as co-heirs with Christ, that they will be treated as God by God Who would serve them day and night. It is however, the complete opposite, the believer serves God day and night. God is not in need of anything. The only service He requires is that they love Him with their entire being, love their neighbor and a third, love one another as Christ loves them.  So the most Armenian and Calvinists believe they would be serving one another in Kingdom of Heaven as their reward, while those outside the walls are tormented and tortured perpetually as their reward. Since both the Armenian and the Calvinist deny God's providence over all mankind, they are led to assume in their imagination great evils being paid back to those who committed evils, a perpetual torment of fire without end and no hope. For the Christian Universalist who beileves in God's providence over all mankind, the picture is far different.

For the Christian Univeralist, the priesthood duty is to serve those who are in need, while those who rule rule no greater than Christ ruled. This means aionios kolasis for the wicked is administered by love by those whom the wicked rejected; that is they are being served by ministering flames. In fact, the Kingdom of God includes those nations which are outside it's walls, where the wicked were raised because all nations shall live by it's Light. Therefore, for the Christian Universalist the Lake of Fire is not a picture of perpetual torment of fire, but the army of priests, co-heirs and rulers with Christ administrating healing to the nations and bringing their glory into the walls.

In conclusion, God providence is over all mankind regardless of the choices they make because He has reconciled all mankind to Himself through the death of His Son. He does not take into account the sins of the world but rather has always provided an escape even to those who have died in their sins a unrepentant sinner. The Lake of Fire is a picture of Jesus alongside the Saints who continue the Work of God which they were created to do, healing the sick and restoring the Nations. A believer can by faith, walk in that future promise in the present reality accessing the same rights and privileges which are promised to them in the age to come by the Holy Spirit. Literally, there is no difference between the believer's duties on earth then there is in heaven, healing the sick, restoring the nations, and spreading the Good News to all mankind whether on earth, under the earth or in heaven. In the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of the Father by their own volition as a result of their free-will; meaning everyone would have both been self-determined and predestined into the Kingdom of God with no violation to either the will of man, or the will of God.

Hi Craig,

So, according to your box, UR is some sort of mix between Armenism and Calvinism.
We have free will to choose our own path within the box; but God pushes the box over His predestined path.

I don't know much about whatever type of Christianity; so the following is no argument. More a question.
Providence is divine guide and protection. Correct? If so how can any Christian deny providence?
The whole OT is about God protecting, punishing, leading, teaching the Jewish people....

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 26, 2008, 04:56:41 AM
So, would it be reasonable to say that God knows exactly how to cause our choices to willingly conform to his will?

Absolutely!!! Nothing can be done outside the will of God. Whatever we do it is God's will or else we would not do it.

CHB

Quote from: Craig
Therefore, since we do not always know where our choices lead us, any choice set before us is accepted by faith that it was the right choice for the situation.

If you have free will you would know where your choices lead you. Wouldn't you say God has free will? Doesn't he know ALL things? We can only chose what is set before us. And who sets these things before us, and determines what is set before us? It is God, it is ALL, to, for from, and about God. Not I, you, we, us.

CHB

Mainstream Christianity teaches that the wicked remain wicked and perpetually burn for the wages of their sin. Such conclusion neglects God's providence over all mankind and only over those who chose Him (Armenian) or were chosen by Him (Calvinist), while the rest are abandoned (Armenian) or never care for to begin with (Calvinist). These are the two theories in which an individual participates in salvation while staying within biblical Judeo-Christian prepositions with precedence.

Christian Universalism establishes that both God chose us, and we chose Him while His providence always remains guiding always, regardless of our bad choices, back into His Will and at the same also be the will of him who is being guided.

Quote from: CraigMainstream Christianity teaches that the wicked remain wicked and perpetually burn for the wages of their sin.

agh..such deception, for indeed the wicked Burn ,and the  wicked die, tis their "PART "in the lake...the PART being the flesh which is destroyed so the SPIRIT SHALL LIVE..

Shame Craig ,that they dont understand the the purpose of DEATH. AND WHAT ACTUALLY dies(destroyed) :icon_flower:

Nothing can be done outside the will of God. Whatever we do it is God's will or else we would not do it.

Care to share how you've come to this conclusion?

Quote from: SOtW on August 26, 2008, 08:23:36 PM
Mainstream Christianity teaches that the wicked remain wicked and perpetually burn for the wages of their sin. Such conclusion neglects God's providence over all mankind and only over those who chose Him (Armenian) or were chosen by Him (Calvinist), while the rest are abandoned (Armenian) or never care for to begin with (Calvinist). These are the two theories in which an individual participates in salvation while staying within biblical Judeo-Christian prepositions with precedence.

Christian Universalism establishes that both God chose us, and we chose Him while His providence always remains guiding always, regardless of our bad choices, back into His Will and at the same also be the will of him who is being guided.

Lets keep it a bit simple. The whole Bible is a big guidebook with (indirect) words from God.
Can't we see the Bible as a lifelong guiding of God? (=providence)
What's the use of being a Calvinist? I mean a practicing Calvinist. If you are chosen you're saved whatever you do?
And why try to convert people to Calvinism if the electing is purely Gods act. Afterall the elect is already elect and the wicked are so wicked they will never listen and/or be elected anyway.

Quote from: CHB on August 26, 2008, 08:19:43 PM

Quote from: Craig
Therefore, since we do not always know where our choices lead us, any choice set before us is accepted by faith that it was the right choice for the situation.

If you have free will you would know where your choices lead you. Wouldn't you say God has free will? Doesn't he know ALL things? We can only chose what is set before us. And who sets these things before us, and determines what is set before us? It is God, it is ALL, to, for from, and about God. Not I, you, we, us.

CHB

Where in the definition of free-will or anything that I have provided ever tell you that you actually know where your choices lead you? There is no prerequisite to free-will to know where your choices lead you, the only prerequisite is the ability to make a choice regardless of how plentiful, limited , uncontrolled or staged those choices are. So your statement has no relevance to free-will, in order to continue, there must be consensus that your presumption of knowledge concerning where a choice leads you is required in order to have free-will.

Regardless what God has set before us, we always have a choice to obey or disobey in regards to these choices. For every situation God presents in your life, you always have a choice whether to accept it or reject it; both accepting it or rejecting it is within the knowledge of God and He is able to guide you regardless of the path you have chosen and it always returns to Him. Whether you accept it or reject is not within the will of God for any to perish, God tempts no man to sin, but He will not allow let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, if you are tempted God always provides a way out.

The point to salvation is, you receive the dominion of heaven here on earth.  You manifest the glory of God . .who is spirit, here on earth . . .which is flesh.  You reproduce life through you.  You still encounter tribulation, but there is an unspeakable peace within you carrying you through the trials, maturing you further and further into the truths of God.  

Man has turned it into religion.  God is returning it back to a relationship.

Just because I believe all are saved regardless as to whether their minds have acknowledged the power, doesn't mean I take my life in Christ any less serious.

Ever been a part of saving a life?  Or protecting someone from danger?  Or coming to the aid of someone who found themselves in dire straights?  The feeling of great appreciation . . all things experienced physically are only a shadow of what it's like when being Christ who is spirit.  It makes me just want to worship him more.

The idea of just giving up and doing whatever you want to do because the concept that God is going to have his will in the end . .is such natural, carnal thinking.  This isn't about living to yourself . . .this is about dying to yourself and living in Christ.

I want to get a bumper sticker that says "It's impossible to live for Jesus"  I want to put that out on our church sign . . .If I had one that you could put messages on . . . Because the truth is, it's not about "me" it's about Christ "in" me.  I can't live for him . .there's nothing I do that he wants . .he never wanted my sacrifice.  He want's "me".  So I quit trying to live "for" him and I decided to "let" him live in me. . . .I found there's so much more freedom in it this way.

No condemnation . . . realistically . . .on these forums, I'll be the first to tell you . . .disagree with people and feel their wrath .  . .even though it states "no condemnation" seldom do we live it .  .but in Christ . .it really is what it says it is . .therefore there is NOW no condemnation . ..for who?  For those IN Christ Jesus.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2008, 08:34:17 PM
Lets keep it a bit simple. The whole Bible is a big guidebook with (indirect) words from God.
Can't we see the Bible as a lifelong guiding of God? (=providence)
What's the use of being a Calvinist? I mean a practicing Calvinist. If you are chosen you're saved whatever you do?
And why try to convert people to Calvinism if the electing is purely Gods act. Afterall the elect is already elect and the wicked are so wicked they will never listen and/or be elected anyway.

Yes, we can see Scripture, laws of creation, the laws of nature, the lifelong guiding of God. It has many examples within it of His providence towards Israel, and all of the nations. It itself has many great words of wisdom and instances we can rely on for advice in our tough situations, again proving God's providence. God's providence is obvious to those who look for it.

There are various levels of Calvinism, some extreme and some moderate. The most common belief is there are the elect and the non-elect. The non-elect are beyond salvation because they are what they are through God's election. The elect however, are found among the non-elect, and the other elect are called to find these lost sheep. So it is not a case of conversion, it is a case of finding the other elect. Why is this important? Because within the elect, there are rewards and penalties for not living a life to God and it is the responsibility of the elect of save the lost elect the agony of loss which they did not need to experience and for every time you find a lost elect and save him, you are rewarded.  It is like having green marbles and blue marbles in a bag mixed together but only the green are the chosen marble. Your only purpose with the blue marbles is to sift through them to find the green ones and you rejoice for every green marble you find.

Quote from: Nathan on August 26, 2008, 08:31:56 PM
Nothing can be done outside the will of God. Whatever we do it is God's will or else we would not do it.

Care to share how you've come to this conclusion?

(Rom. 9:19) who hath resisted his will? (2Chron. 20:6)  (Dan. 4:35)

CHB

Craig,

So actually you are saying Calvinists have lost their marbles  :pointlaugh:


(thanks for the explanations)

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2008, 09:05:37 PM
Craig,

So actually you are saying Calvinists have lost their marbles  :pointlaugh:


(thanks for the explanations)

Haha! Yes.