A typical response to a person asking about hell

[WhiteWings]

Paul,

I fully understand. Even at my first reply.
Yes ETs understand thinks differently. So you can indeed refute them with verses. That's the most direct way. But reading pneuma's thread (Matt Slick) that doesn't seem to work either.

For me the 10 commandments are not "This is my law and I want you to keep to it."
No it is "This is my personality and I would love if you would do the same."
So the Bible is a lawbook but also Gods autobiography.

That said I fully understand the practical problems of using what I wrote in a discussion.

[WhiteWings]

I agree emotional appeals are not reasons for anything. Appeals to Emotion for the truth are as appeals to imagination for the truth. They are not reliable or accurate even if there are elements of truth in emotion and imagination.

Do you have personal emotions Craig?
Or are the just given to you by God/HS? If yes aren't your emotions derived from the word of God?
That said it's extremely hard to make a point based on emotions because they can't be proved. An oppossing emotion is also an emotion.

[Craig]

I agree emotional appeals are not reasons for anything. Appeals to Emotion for the truth are as appeals to imagination for the truth. They are not reliable or accurate even if there are elements of truth in emotion and imagination.

Do you have personal emotions Craig?

Yes. However, my personal emotions are subjectively based on my personal interpretations. If my emotions are subjective, then my personal emotions are not always in line with what is objectively true. Therefore, to make a conclusion on what is true based on personal emotion may or may not be objectively true. Therefore in order to know what is true, we are to go beyond our emotion and to something deeper, unity in the faith and knowledge of the Truth.

Or are the just given to you by God/HS? If yes aren't your emotions derived from the word of God?

.

If my emotions are given to me by God/HS, then they will have other witnesses to the Truth than just the emotions I am feeling. When my emotions are derived from the Word of God, then I did not come to the conclusion based on my emotions, I came to the conclusion based on the Word of God, which prompted me emotionally because of the truthful conclusion.

That said it's extremely hard to make a point based on emotions because they can't be proved. An oppossing emotion is also an emotion.

Emotion is not the assurance things hoped for, nor is it the conviction of things not seen. That is faith. Yet, so many Christians live by emotion, not faith, and therefore continually remain infants being thrown to and fro by every circumstance, doctrine, belief and every evil scheme of man, and we are not to be infants any longer, but mature men acquainted with the teachings of righteousness able to discern and distinguish between good and evil and in fact be teachers of it. When we were infants we thought as infants, but when I became a man, I put the childish things behind me. (Ephesians 4:14, 1 Corinthians 13:11, Hebrews 5:12-14)

So yes, I have personal emotion, I am passionate and have much zeal. My personal emotion does not dictate what is true, my passion does not dictate what is true, my zeal does not dictate what is true. It is not good to have emotion, passion, zeal without knowledge because even if I have emotion, passion, zeal for God, if it is not based on knowledge, I will begin to wander and lose the way and establish my own righteousness which is not God's. (Psalms 19:2, Romans 10:1-3)

Remember Love is not an emotion ;)

[Shadow]

Actually we have to be cautious in responding that way.   This is an appeal to emotion,  it is to suggest that this loving God can be subject to our feelings on the matter.  I personally have been guilty of that and have realized that many Christians are hoping that question gets asked because you will get boxed into a corner very easily.

That is why it really is more important to make the biblical case for HELL not being eternal or "from now on".   A person can discuss "what" hell is apart from the length of time that one might be there.  The two are mutually exclusive.

If God defines Love, then who are we to make Gods love what love means to us?  We will not have any control over the truth of that.  Because as humans we can disagree on what Love actually is.


The truth is,  if God actually has created some of mankind to be in hell eternally, then what difference will it make if we like it or not?   

And actually a day would come where the tears in our eyes would be wiped away because we would understand what Gods loved means and that understanding would bring Joy.


Yes, that sounds rather twisted thinking we can have Joy while people are suffering, but like I said, removing the emotion and dilegently studying scripture and translations , hebrew and greek usage and the history of those languages  is the most productive way to battle that.

Yes you are quite right, I shouldn't have been so emotional about it :mblush:

My problem is I'm not entirely convinced of universal salvation, although wish with all my heart that it's true (My main reason being I'm not unconvinced about ET)

I'm getting there though, there are a few things I don't believe in anymore (thanks to Ray's teaching on bible-truths mainly free will


Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few chosen.

Joh 15:16  You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you.

Act 9:15  And the Lord said to him, Go, for this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.


BTW that article came from an ET site which believes in free will - You must choose God and Christ (This particular site, has a whole page dedicated to exposing false teachers, ironically most of those ministries being criticized believe in ET themselves)

However if universal salvation isn't true what are the alternatives

Calvinism
Arminianism

Which ever way you look at it, you can't escape the fact that God in His Sovereignty foreknew everything that would happen, before the world was ever created so he would have known who would have accepted Christ long before they were ever born

If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

I will continue to search for the truth, as logically universalism makes the most sense, I just hope its right :HeartThrob:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yes you are quite right, I shouldn't have been so emotional about it :mblush:

Forgive me if that came across as harsh.   I did not intend for my words to say that you were "being" emotional in a negative sense.  I only meant that the path that line of reasoning takes appears logical but still is rooted in how we feel about something.     I feel things about all of this,  but that does not make it true or untrue.

I really have a hard time myself with universalism from time to time.   I am a very self reflective person for whatever reason and I do revisit my beliefs.  I do often contemplate, what if ET is true, then am I indeed leading people into hell and myself as well?   Or am I leading more into hell only to one day understand the justice of it?  hmmmmm 

I have resolved that if ET is true, and if I am the master of where I go and can indeed choose Hell, then I choose it this day.   I do not care about saving myself as if I am guilty of leading people to a place of eternal torture where a God offers no hope then I will suffer with my brothers and sisters that I helped put there.

Otherwise, though,  I have studied scripture,  its specific wording, and the meanings and usages of greek and hebrew within those scriptures enough to be confident that Gods Character will not allow anyone to remain apart from him forever.   I also realize and see the path that got me here and I did not choose of my free-will to get here.  I was literally dragged and my testamony verifies it.

However if universal salvation isn't true what are the alternatives

Calvinism
Arminianism

From a biblical perspective,  thats about it.

If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

Sometimes trying to resolve something that appears illogical indeed ends up being that way from scriptural fact.  :)

I will continue to search for the truth, as logically universalism makes the most sense, I just hope its right :HeartThrob:

Thats all I am after,   truth.   Rock on.   :)

[Craig]

I will continue to search for the truth, as logically universalism makes the most sense, I just hope its right :HeartThrob:

Thats all I am after,   truth.   Rock on.   :)

Amen!

[martincisneros]

My problem is I'm not entirely convinced of universal salvation, although wish with all my heart that it's true (My main reason being I'm not unconvinced about ET)

I got a revelation of UR in 2001, and I started preaching and teaching it that year, both offline and online.  Took three and a half years to finally get rid of all of the ET from my thinking and my emotions to where at last there was no other possible outcome except for the Universal Restoration.  I blew through books on it during that time period the way that chain smokers blow through cigarettes.  For me, it was a process because I'd had ET crammed into my system since my prenatal year. (I wasn't just bottle fed ET.  It went further back than that to be as full of that as I was!)  Just focus on every promise in the Bible regarding it and spend time each day reading 'em aloud as a part of your devotional/prayer time.  It's based on specific promises of the Word and not just proving the correct translation of certain passages in the KJV or other translations where the eternal negative is usually derived by uninformed ministries.  Hebrews 6 says that His counsel is unchangeable.  He swore by Himself and He's not going to be a hypocrite in taking His own Name in vain by proving to be a fraud where this is concerned.  His Name is on the line, as well as the Body and Blood of Christ that this oath was sworn in. 

When Israel was about to go after the promised land, I believe that it's Deuteronomy chapter 1 that says that the seed of Abraham were already at that time as the sand by the sea and as the stars of heaven in number, but Moses spoke a thousand-fold blessing -- which surely has to include every other nation either becoming Abraham's seed or being blessed by Abraham's seed.  The book of Hebrews says that the New Testament is a better covenant established upon better promises.  Better than a thousand-fold blessing of those that were already as the sand by the sea and as the stars of heaven in multitude?  Whatever else that means, additionally, it doesn't include the loss of a single person you've ever known in person or by reputation!

[WhiteWings]

I sometimes wonder how those who say to believe 100% in UR are under pressure.
(for now just ignore the following isn't Biblically correct)

I picture the White Throne Judgement. Jesus/God sitting in an immense courtroom and all humanity waiting in line to be judged. Some have to stand in line for months and see 90% being kicked into the pit of doom.
I wonder how many UR people can still hold 100% to their belief?
"Did Jesus really gave us a free ride? Isn't ET right because the most precious things have the highest price."
"Was WhiteWings rightfully confused by all the riddles in the Bible?"
"Was the S of the HS I always talked with the S of Spirit or the S of Satan? Was I decieved?"

[Nathan]

There is a passage in Scripture that talks about one who puts their hand to the plow, to not look back . . . Let me encourage you . . .I'm as new to UR as you are, but let me encourage you . . don't look back.  There is a softness of spirit in this belief . . . people who have given themselves wholly over to the idea of UR have found a greater love for others and more grace with others, than those who are firmly in ET (which by the way, I know what group of people that is, just not aware of what the acronym means).

Jesus is in the deep, calling what is deep within us . . .we're not to cautiously wade in the shallows until our minds are secure in "knowing" this is the right direction.  This is not faith.  You've heard a sound that is different from the noise. . .follow that sound.  It brought you here . . .it'll get you there . . . but when you embrace this and then look back in wonder, it affects your ability to grow in this.  It creates a double-mindedness in you that is of no value to anyone. 

Your mind wants every question answered before you commit.  God wants you to commit before he answers every question.  And you gotta know by now . . . this arena is vast, there are no outer limits here like there were in the other belief system.  It's not just UR . .  it's beyond UR.  There's to much that I see that I know I was wrong on, to think that "parts" of what I used to believe may be still right.  Let go of all of it  . . .and let God rebuild you from the ground up.  It's not your spirit that is warning you that this may lead you into a cult . .it's your religious mind . . . Christ has set you free . . not just free . .but FREE INDEED. . . . live in the freedom . . .know that religion has lied to you about pretty much everything. 

Pursue Christ and don't look back.

[WhiteWings]

than those who are firmly in ET (which by the way, I know what group of people that is, just not aware of what the acronym means).

ET= Eternal Torment

You might be as new to UR as I'm but somehow I think your Biblical foundation is far far more solid than mine.

[Nathan]

If you are my brother in Christ, the Word in you is as solid as the Word in me :grin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I sometimes wonder how those who say to believe 100% in UR are under pressure.
(for now just ignore the following isn't Biblically correct)

I picture the White Throne Judgement. Jesus/God sitting in an immense courtroom and all humanity waiting in line to be judged. Some have to stand in line for months and see 90% being kicked into the pit of doom.
I wonder how many UR people can still hold 100% to their belief?
"Did Jesus really gave us a free ride? Isn't ET right because the most precious things have the highest price."
"Was WhiteWings rightfully confused by all the riddles in the Bible?"
"Was the S of the HS I always talked with the S of Spirit or the S of Satan? Was I decieved?"

Could you clarify what your trying to say here?  What pressure are you talking about?

I am not sure how to respond to your analogy.   Not because I do not picture what you wrote,  but because of being asked to ignore whether it is biblical or not.

[WhiteWings]

If I ask you: "Paul, are you 100% convinced of UR?" your answer likely will be a clear yes.

You die and stand before Gods throne. Your are number 5 billion in line to be judged.
You see that God is angry towards teh majority of people and throws them into the fire.
Would you think "Wow, I can't wait before God sends me to heaven"
Or would you think "Am I really elected? Perhaps Matt Slick was right afterall"

I said not Biblical because God will likely judge billions in a microsecond. It won't take him months or years to complet that task.

I hope this clears it up a little.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If I ask you: "Paul, are you 100% convinced of UR?" your answer likely will be a clear yes.

You die and stand before Gods throne. Your are number 5 billion in line to be judged.
You see that God is angry towards teh majority of people and throws them into the fire.
Would you think "Wow, I can't wait before God sends me to heaven"
Or would you think "Am I really elected? Perhaps Matt Slick was right afterall"

I said not Biblical because God will likely judge billions in a microsecond. It won't take him months or years to complet that task.

I hope this clears it up a little.

I am convinced of UR, I am not convinced that we avoid judgment.   I do not really argue the specifics of where or when that judgment happens because it doesn't really matter.   Will knowing when it happens change me?   I already know something may happen, yet that is not motivation for my to change my ways.  Fear was never one either.  Usually when I change I can look back and see the sequence of events to see that God changed me.   So, when I see other people that reject Jesus now, why would they really be different.  Do they have to make the choice within a certain religious time frame, but God drags me around so that my choices to believe are caused?    I think its just not their time yet. 

I fully expect to die with some kind of sin / deception / evil within my heart because I cannot and/or don't want to follow ALL the commandments.

So likely my thoughts standing in line in your specific scenario would be,  oh boy, this is gonna sting a little.   

[firstborn888]

If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

Another "Bingo"

Emotions aside, how the Father treats us is the biggest indicator to how He treats (and thinks of) everyone else. Since I was not 'saved' in church and not dangled over hell then I have no clue to how that is supposed to genuinely lead someone to knowing God (which is salvation). 

I had no clue what 'repentence' was. He came to me and revealed His overwhelming love and knowledge of abundant life and it was over - I was just stunned.

I did immediately see my selfishness and longed to be more like Him but it was clear that He had the same good intentions toward me before and after.  :Sparkletooth:

[arcticmonster2003]

If universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever except for those lucky few that God in his Foreknowledge have predestined to salvation

Another "Bingo"

Hey, wait a minute, you say "if universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever". Where did you get that from? I'll tell you, your getting that from the scriptures aren't you, that few will find the gate and the way which leads to life, cause otherwise, you would say something like "if universalism isn't true, then how many are going to be saved" or something like that. Just sayin...think long and hard on what you said there. :Whistle:

Matthew 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[Shadow]

Hey, wait a minute, you say "if universalism isn't true, then most of mankind is doomed forever". Where did you get that from? I'll tell you, your getting that from the scriptures aren't you, that few will find the gate and the way which leads to life, cause otherwise, you would say something like "if universalism isn't true, then how many are going to be saved" or something like that. Just sayin...think long and hard on what you said there. :Whistle:

Matthew 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You partly answered your own question with the scripture you quoted

Also

Rev 13:7  And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them." And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21
Rev 13:8  And all those dwelling in the earth will worship it, those of whom the names had not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb having been slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9  If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10  If anyone gathers captivity, into captivity he goes. If anyone will kill by a sword, by a sword he must be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If universal salvation isn't true then it's irrelevant whether predestination or free will is the truth when you read Rev 13.8 to Rev 13.10, if hell is true then it can only mean this

Predestination – God didn't want everyone to be saved, only an elect few

Self-Destination – God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their own free will

Which ever way you look at it though, Rev 13.8 - 13.10  clearly states that the final outcome is clearly known by God and cannot be changed

Conclusion: if universal salvation isn't true then God didn't love or care about all mankind to save them all

[firstborn888]

Conclusion: if universal salvation isn't true then God didn't love or care about all mankind to save them all

There you go again. You just keep hitting the nail square on the head over and over...

[Craig]

Free will – God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their own free will

That is not what free-will means, so your conclusion is not true. Free-will does not mean self-determination, or self-destination, if that be the case there would be no phrase called, 'self-determination' of 'self-destination' in the first place. Free-will is the ability to make choices when they are present and choose between them, nobody has the ability to choose what has already been done for them. So stop polluting it the same way some Christian pollute it, start using it correctly and say what is true.

This is how your parody should have been phrased.

Self-Determination - God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their free will.

Or

Self-Destination - God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their free will.

The presumption of Self-Determination and Self-Destination in Free-will should not be applied to Free-Will. Free-Will is just the description of the type of will human's have. We are rational, emotional beings with the capacity to learn and expand through the choices we make, that is what Free-Will means.

So once again, if you wanted to be communicating what is true, this should have been your objection.

Predestination – God didn't want everyone to be saved, only an elect few.

Self-destination– God didn't care enough to save everyone as he just let mankind go blindly to their fate, by their own free will.

Which ever way you look at it though, Rev 13.8 - 13.10  clearly states that the final outcome is clearly known by God and cannot be changed

Conclusion: if universal salvation isn't true then God didn't love or care about all mankind to save them all

This is not a contention on words, this correcting the usage of words. Just like we correct the usage of the word "Aionios" from being perpetual without end to age-abiding.

[Shadow]

I was answering it in the context as in the Free-will (Armininism) doctrine, which says that God made man a "free moral agent" where people have to "choose" Christ in order to be saved, In other words You send yourselves to hell by not "choosing" Christ

The point I was trying to make was God is Totally Sovereign and has complete foreknowledge of everything, long before it ever happens

So stop polluting it the same way some Christian pollute it, start using it correctly and say what is true.

You could put that in a far more diplomatic way, as I was not intentionally polluting it as you say, I'm just trying to point out that the outcome is the same if you believe in ET whether you believe in predestination or free will

I have corrected the previous post I made, and won't be making any further posts until I know more about UR, maybe I should never have started this topic :sigh:

[CHB]

The point I was trying to make was God is Totally Sovereign and has complete foreknowledge of everything, long before it ever happens

I agree completely. We humans do not have free will, it is impossible.

CHB

[Craig]

Shadow,

I have corrected the previous post I made, and won't be making any further posts until I know more about UR, maybe I should never have started this topic

Don't stop posting.

I thought, felt, and believed I was more than diplomatic about words being used incorrectly, my apologies if it was short of this.Words being used incorrectly cause confusion and bring into contention what is true. If you took offense, I apologize but this is the second time in this thread I had witness incorrect usage of free-will.

Using 'Free Moral Agent', or 'Self-Determination' or 'Self-Destination' in which our free-will is a means to this end, is the  correct communication, substituting these ends with free-will pollutes the word and causes confusion. In other words, "Free Moral Agent" says our destination is determined by Free-Will. Self-determination says our destination is determined by Free-Will. Neither Free Moral Agent, nor Self-Determination is Free-will because it is a logical fallacy, it is like saying, tools is the process of building a house using tools when in fact you meant, construction.

That is all. There is confusion already in the word Free-Will, it is best not repeat the confusion by using the Presupposition of Free-Will in place with the proposition of Free-Will, that is all.

[Craig]

The point I was trying to make was God is Totally Sovereign and has complete foreknowledge of everything, long before it ever happens

I agree completely. We humans do not have free will, it is impossible.

CHB

We do have free-will, we do not have Free Moral Agency or Self Determination. If I am going to correct Shadow, I have to correct you as well. :P

[arcticmonster2003]

I personally think there is a big difference between foreknowledge and predestination.

[Nathan]

I have the freedom to live for, or against God . . .I do not have the freedom to choose my eternal end.  I can forgo the lake of fire by "choosing" to let Christ transform me now.  I can walk out of God's will . . .but never out of his plan.


Correction is best applied when given in tenderness as opposed to firmness.