Is Marriage Needed?

[reFORMer]

In Philippians 3 Paul talks about being in a race.  In accordance with the goal he says, "...am I pursuing into the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus." (vs.15)  If it must be for a time you seek, waiting on God, then the path is passive reception; but, he's not lying in a porch at the pool of Bethesda hoping someone will come along and help.  He is aggressively apprehending.  Just prior to describing toward what he aspires with active stretching out to a prize in a competition, a prize defined as being summoned by God into a higher dimension in Christ, he speaks of his target as, "...attaining into the out resurrection that is out from among the dead." (vs.11)  After calling it a prize in a race he says "...our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (vs.20-22)  This prize is physical metamorphosis, the salvation of our bodies.  It is overcoming our mortality.  The liberation of the Glory frees the created aspect from the slavery of corruption. (cf., Rom 8:21)  The Lord's spirit present in our body metamorphoses it, by an out raying of glory into greater glory. (cf., 2 Cor 3:17-18)

What the Authorized Version translates with the word "perfect" also means "mature" and "finished" in Greek.  The "finish" line in this race is where our "maturity" is brought to "perfection."  The issue is to beat death.  We seek to obtain being so possessed of God, to grasp for what God has grasped us, (cp., vs. 12) that we arrive at sufficient "maturity" to be out of whatever is dead.  Rather than being aged by the dying or mortal processes we would be matured by Christ into deathlessness, immortality and incorruptible life.  "Corruption [is not] enjoying the allotment (inheritance) of incorruption." (1 Cor 15:50)  Whatever of the body is a decaying (or corrupting) corpse it cannot obtain incorruption.  The same is said in that passage of flesh and blood not obtaining the kingdom of God.  The mystery is we shall not all sleep (in death,) "...yet we all shall be changed."  This metamorphosis is the mystery we must be shown, we must see.  Whatever impact our devotion may have had on our entrance into the Divine nature, there is ultimately no choice, "For this corruptible MUST put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."  Not the mortified which means already dead, but the mortal, those dying with the aging processes, this is who must put on deathlessness or immortality."  Those appointed royal priests in whom this grace strives now apprehend to impart to others what they have obtained.  Any getting there ahead of anybody else is only to bring the others in.

It is a contest.  The race is against death.  "The wages of sin is death."  That the principle manifestation of the Adversary is through humans seems incontrovertible.  But it is not only what within ourselves operates in the realm of death which is the sphere in which sin reigns, (cf., Rom 5:21) it is through others affecting us also.  Our "battle is not with flesh and blood," our own or others', yet the immature readily mistake it for such.  The truly carnal commit to prove it in actual battles with physical weapons against their misidentified opponents.  Well, by this time they may well be actual co-deceived opponents.  But the victory over death is achieved in another war.  It is in the liberty from God's presence, by, "...uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory...being transformed into the same image, from glory into glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit." (2 Cor 4:14)  "For if you are living in accord with flesh, you are about to be dying.  Yet if, in spirit, you are putting the practices of the body to death, you will be living." (Rom 8:13)  "...we are suffering together [with Christ,] that we should be glorified together also." (Rom 8:17)  So, to be clothed with glory, "I am...deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ, and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ (His faith,) the righteousness which is out from God on faith:  to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death, if somehow I should be attaining into the out resurrection that is out from among the dead." (Philp 3:8-11)


your brother, James M. Rohde

[reFORMer]

Forgive me.  I know sparrow was asking Martin the question; but, I just had to answer.  I've been wanting to write out "This Metamorphosis:  the Race Against Death" for a while.  I repeated it as a seperate post initiating a new thread.  Any getting there ahead of anybody else is to bring the others in.

[martincisneros]

Not sure how that answers my question?
How are you being a servant here if you see this as a contest to "win" out over others?
I don't get what you're saying, can you please clarify?

And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. (Mark 9:35)
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:28)
14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. (John 13:14-17)
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40)
12 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. (John 14:12)
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth; (1Peter 2:19-22)

All of life is a contest to see who can be the greatest servant!  Those who grumble and complain about doing things for others are already disqualifying themselves for the prize.  It's those who do the Word and aren't just hearers that'll be praised in their deeds.  Reigning with Christ is washing feet with Christ.  The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Servants.  Life is a race to destroy the most yokes and to remove the most burdens.  By the end of my life, I'll have done something really significant, in the Name of Jesus, for each man, woman, child, animal, and spirit on the whole planet.  Perhaps I'll have done even more than even that, but I won't get into specifics here of what's going on.  There are no limits when it's really about others :cloud9:

[sparrow]

All of life is a contest to see who can be the greatest servant!  Those who grumble and complain about doing things for others are already disqualifying themselves for the prize.  It's those who do the Word and aren't just hearers that'll be praised in their deeds.  Reigning with Christ is washing feet with Christ.  The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Servants.  Life is a race to destroy the most yokes and to remove the most burdens.  By the end of my life, I'll have done something really significant, in the Name of Jesus, for each man, woman, child, animal, and spirit on the whole planet.  Perhaps I'll have done even more than even that, but I won't get into specifics here of what's going on. There are no limits when it's really about others :cloud9:

How come? you don't have to answer if you don't want to... but ya put it out there, it's mean to leave me hanging like this... :laughing7:

[AJ]

What is Marriage?

Marriage ceremonies have developed over the centuries and vary from culture to culture, but at the most primitive level, once you slept with someone, they became your spouse.
Having a legal bit of paper and a ceremony is fine, but God does not work according to bits of paper.

If you sleep with someone, either it is adultary, or it is marriage.
If you are thinking of sleeping with someone, consider this.
For one night sex, are you prepared to pay the price in terms of responsibility, and life long commitment as described in Ephesians as to husbands and wives commitment to each other?

-----------
I don't think sex is as much a moral issue as we humans make of it. God is not as offended or shocked as many of us humans are by what others of us do sexually.
(e.g. Sampson's "illegal" choice of a wife "was of the Lord"; David's adultery lead to the birth of Solomon, etc.)

In the OT God seems to work with whatever social arrangement was in vogue (polygamy, marriage of relatives, virginity a salable commodity, women as property).
The rules he made about the sexual conduct of the Israelites, with particular reference to the Levites, were not based on morality, but simply a means of separating between Israel and the Nations. They are rules of ceremonial, or ritual, cleanliness.

Just as there is no chapter and verse for the sex=marriage scenario, so there is no chapter and verse for God's universal law of marriage.
Of course, there is the ideal, one man and one woman, joined in youth, for life. But since Adam's time, the lives of us all are less than the ideal.
Marriage, and divorce, are civil laws, written to accomodate our weakness.

------------
Actually in the OT marital sex and extra-marital sex are treated differently.

Adultery was a capital offense.
Rape was a capital offense.

Consentual sex by two unmarried people was NOT a capital offense.
It was punished by forced marriage (if the girl's father approved), or by a fine.
In the O.T. culture virginity was not a moral issue.
In that culture a wife was considered property, and a virgin daughter was a financial commodity, purchased by dowry.
Multiple marriage was approved. So there's nothing intrinsically immoral with multiple sex partners.

As regulated in the OT, adultery is not being unfaithful to your own wife, but having a sexual relation with comeone else's wife.
The sin of adultery is not against your wife, but against your neighbor, whose property you have violated.

------------

The Bible refers to marriage as a covenant:

Malachi 2:14 - You ask, "Why?" It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

A covenant is a legal attachment, and much more than that -- with a covenant, we receive blessings from God, but if we break that covenant, we will not see the full blessings of it.

-------------

A Chaplain friend of mine, inquired before the LORD about what constitutes a marriage.
After sometime in prayer, he felt he received the following verse as what God considers as necessary to fulfill a marriage contract.

2Cor 13:1 - "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

Therefore, when a couple are willing make their vows before 2 or 3 witnesses, THEY BECOME MARRIED.
Considering that marriage is essentially a contract between two people, before God, I would think that a "formal" ceremony is not necessary. God knows what's in the heart, and sex between people who are spiritually married need not have a "formal" contract from your local seminary graduate.

Not withstanding........one might want to be in compliances with the laws of the land also.......so get a marriage license & a preacher and make it official.(Rom 13:7).

.

[rhellis]

The concept that you're married to the first person you have sex with is legalistic and in my opinion unscriptural. Even in the law, sex outside of marriage was punishable by death-- if the act of sex married a couple, why punish them (further, ha ha ha)? Why not just accept them as a married couple?

And what about the hundreds of thousands of women who are raped? Are they married to their rapists?

But to answer your question-- or at least what I feel about it as a 38 year old single man who has never been married. I believe God joins hearts, and the ceremony should merely be a recognition of what has happened. There was a time when I wanted to marry. I'm not too sure about that anymore-- even if I met and fell deeply in love with the right girl. When a couples' hearts are joined, ceremony is superfluous. The best a person can hope for in the male/female equation is to join hearts, and if that happens, nothing can stand in the way of it. If it doesn't, nothing in the world, including a ceremony or sex or both, can make it a marriage.

[Nathan]

don't think sex is as much a moral issue as we humans make of it. God is not as offended or shocked as many of us humans are by what others of us do sexually.

I think you're much closer to truth than most on this issue, but let me push the envelope and say that I don't think God is as interested in the sin in us nearly as much as we are.  Even Paul states that I can do what ever I want . . it's just that not everything I do is benificial.

The emphasis shouldn't be on me doing whatever I want . .it should be . . .to me . ..it should be the pursuit of Christ.  Now, I know that may sound piously religious, but what I'm trying to say is, if I pursue Christ, the process of my pursuit will be also that which purges my fleshly desires out of me at the same time.  I'm not perfect, I still screw up, have a bad attitude with some things . . .and there've been those times where I've even thrown myself at the mercy of God begging him to remove these areas where I fall down most often . . .only to come to realize . .again . . .he's not nearly as concerned about my shortcomings as much as I am.  It's back to the tares and wheat . . . I am not the wheat, nor am I the tares . . I am the field.  When the wheat in me comes to maturity, God will harvest me . . .spiritually, and as the wheat is loosely tossed into the air, the wind does the separating . . .as I feel like I'm freefalling sometimes . . .in that state, there is a sifting of flesh and spirit taking place.

I've found that there are a lot of issues that I really struggled over . .that when I just let go . . .and if . .this may sound very controversial, but it's how it happened with me .  .when I gave into the temptation and continued to pursue Christ without the guilt and shame . .it wasn't long before that which I thought controlled me . . .LEFT ME.  But it didn't happen until I quit trying to defeat the problem.  And this is really what manifested in me later . . .God isn't nearly as concerned about your bad habits as much as you are.  When you let go . . .then God will let it go from you.  The key is, don't stop pursuing Christ.

You have a history of sleeping around?  Pursue Christ . . ."he'll" change your desire . .don't try to force it yourself . . .you'll only become frustrated and depressed.  Let go of it . . .pursue Christ . . .and God will let it go from you.

[Molly]

It's back to the tares and wheat . . . I am not the wheat, nor am I the tares . . I am the field.

Are you also the world?


Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

[WhiteWings]

Mmmmzzz, if sex is no big deal why got people stoned to death for it? Why not, say, 3 whiplashes?

[Nathan]

Because they didn't understand grace . . .the law is what gives sin it's strength.  Remember the woman caught in the act?  Did Jesus respond your way? 

Molly, we are the field, he is the gardener, we are the world, we are trees, we are turbulant seas, we are clouds, we are also clouds without water . . .we are branches, we are fruit . . .we are in every parable, depending on the story or context.  We are the lost son, we are the elder son, we are eagles, we are worms . . . we are the blind, the deaf, we are the seeing.  We are Peter, we are the Pharisees . . . the list is really endless.

[WhiteWings]

Nathan,

I'm totally confused by your post.

Even Paul states that I can do what ever I want . . it's just that not everything I do is benificial.

Indeed a 1000 extra years in the oven isn't beneficial.

The emphasis shouldn't be on me doing whatever I want . .it should be . . .to me . ..it should be the pursuit of Christ.

Isn't the pursuit of Christ trying not to sin? I know I deserve to get slapped now because I mix up faith with works. And that God controls me. I should repent of my sins etc.
It's very hard for me to repent for something I see no harm in. For me there are only 2 sexual sins. Forced sex and cheating.
When reading about the other sexual sins I just think "And? What's the big deal if all participants enjoy?"
For me it's like saying "I'm a Bible scolar" When asked how long my study took I answer "Well to be honest with you I didn't unwrap my Bible yet. But I *do* have the intention!"
Being in pursuit is an activity. Not just doing nothing or even worse do things that are against the whole goal or pursuit.

Remember the woman caught in the act?  Did Jesus respond your way?

Please give me a verse number.

[Nathan]

Dude, I warned you about this . . until you experience Truth for yourself rather than just observe it from the banks . . .it will be frustrating for you to grasp.  I'm not condemning you, I'm just sayin this is how it is.

Pursuing Christ has nothing to do with trying not to sin.  Jesus is not sin-conscious, we are.  But by pursuing Christ, that "breaks" us free from becoming sin conscious. 

Having said that . . .it does worry me a little about your repeated acceptance of sexual encounters . .. but again, I'm not your holy Spirit . .but you'll know when God speaks to you . . .cuz chances are, you won't like it . . .I know there've been many times I didn't either . .and I ended up in more trouble for ignoring Him when I should have been embracing him.

At any rate . . . you asked for a passage . . .

John 8
1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

[WhiteWings]

Your right Nathan. I still don't understand it. So I leave it at this.
Anyway thanks for the help :thumbsup:

[Molly]

Because they didn't understand grace . . .the law is what gives sin it's strength.  Remember the woman caught in the act?  Did Jesus respond your way? 

Molly, we are the field, he is the gardener, we are the world, we are trees, we are turbulant seas, we are clouds, we are also clouds without water . . .we are branches, we are fruit . . .we are in every parable, depending on the story or context.  We are the lost son, we are the elder son, we are eagles, we are worms . . . we are the blind, the deaf, we are the seeing.  We are Peter, we are the Pharisees . . . the list is really endless.

I'm not sure I'm ready to wildly mix metaphors.

Jesus himself tells us that the field is the world.

Do you have other scripture that says the field in this parable is each of us individually, as you claim?

I don't want to get too sloppy here.

[Molly]

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience,...

This is evidence that God had already at that time written his laws on their hearts and minds.

This means that they already know what is right and what is wrong in God's eyes, because they have the internal witness of their own conscience, so to disregard it, from here on, is to be in open rebellion to God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Your right Nathan. I still don't understand it. So I leave it at this.
Anyway thanks for the help :thumbsup:

What I see is that God doesn't react the same way a Christian would who was deeply offended to find out someone they knew was having sexual relations outside of marriage.

If someone says that sex is not something important to consider then they are a fool.   The orphanages are a good example, STD's are another,  and Aids.   

I would imagine the context of the bible is keeping a community free of disease and making the best deterrant possibly available.  I think humans probably learned of the horrible deaths that can occur from untreated STD's which they likely had no treatment at all for unlike today. 

Those that critisize this aspect of punishment in the bible are only looking at it from a more modern standpoint.   Many STD's was a death sentence at one time and why let someone spread it around?

With that said,  the spiritual side of things is equally important, not to mention the emotional aspects far too many people are in denial of.

The point is, the knee jerk reactions of hearing about it needs to stop and take a more reasonable approach to information and education.

What has happened is the fight against the ridiculous stance religion has about sex is countered by a view that is equally as ridiculous and actually more dangerous emotionally and physically over all.

Both sides bear the scars,  neither side will admit it causes any.

[Nathan]

Molly,
I know I'm going to sound like a broken record on all of this, but I really don't mind that.  What would be great is if we come to these forums and are set free from our own limited understanding and come to experience the true freedom Jesus brought to them, and brings to us.  

The key to seeing things spiritually is to receive them inwardly, take them to be addressing my personal nature within me..  To read things religiously, is to read them outwardly, taking them to mean "other people".  This is the differences between the old and the new.  The Word is the same, it's our perspective that has changed.

The thinking "what applies to them, applies to us because God's Word never changes" is really a bit boligerant.  John the Baptist didn't say "we" must decrease so He may increase . . .he said "I" . .not "my ministry", but ME . . .MY thinking, MY reasoning . . .MY logic . .he made it personal.

The Rock that Jesus' built his kingdom on was this very concept.  "Who do YOU say that I am?"  Note that when Peter answered that question, the answer was not one of the answers he'd already given.  The reason was because none of the other answers were from God . .they were all man's opinions of who Jesus was.  And Jesus didn't ask Peter who's side was he on . . .which of those opinions was he in agreement with . . .he asked him "Who do YOU say I am" . . .in other words "What do YOU see".  And what Peter saw was out of context from all the other answers . .which by the way, derived from Scripture also . .it's just that men made their own conclusions as to how Jesus lined up with what they knew Scriptures said.

Did it change Peter?  Spiritually, yes, it changed his spiritual nature, and as a result, Jesus changed his name.  But unfortunately, Peter was still an infant in this change and just as soon as Jesus acknowledged that now things were coming by way of revelation rather than religious reasoning (flesh and blood), Peter turns around and becomes an adversary in the very next breath he takes.

I get asked this a lot "What's your Scriptural base for what you're saying?"  It's the same as "Give us a sign to prove you are who you say you are . . ."

What I see and what I say is not intended to be "proved" by Scritpure.  Scripture has "led" me to where I am . . .and I still read the Bible . . .I still dig up meanings  of words . . .but I don't "rely" solely on the pages before me.  Even Jesus said to the Pharisees, "You search the Scriptures because you think they have all the answers . .and in them, they all point to me"  Jesus is not Scripture, he is spirit.  When you see him from the Scripture TAKE THE LEAP and walk in the spirit from there.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


I'm not saying this to condemn anyone.  I'm saying this so you can be set free from you're limited understanding of what every verse is saying.  I'm not saying my understanding is not limited either . . .I'm in the same boat as you . . .I'm not trying to raise myself above anyone on these forums . .what I'm trying to say is, when you let go of the literal word . . .there is a world of freedom there we never knew we had.

We have come to our Jubilee when we walk in the Spirit of Truth.  God is giving back to us everything the enemy has stolen.  The remarkable piece to this is, we're getting back things we never even knew we had because they'd been stolen so long ago.  So now it "appears" new . ."there is nothing new under the sun"  Yeah, I know that . . .but what about 'Behold, I will make all things new"?  It's the same "word" but now, it's been made "new" and with that newness comes . .not bondage or more walls . .but pure FREEDOM . .the kind that makes you want to stand up and shout, even though you understand only about 20% of what's being said . . .but that's the beauty of this . . .it's not my head that needs to get it . . .it's my HEART.

As to your caution . . .the river is only at it's best when  the bottom goes out from under you.

But I will add . . .read up on the 4 soils . . . I am the field.  And in another place, perhaps the one you're referring to . . .you're right . . .the field is the world and I am the seed . . . . . .There is so much rising up in me . .I don't know which channel in the river to take . . just be glad it's still "one" river.


For you Molly . . ..
Matthew 13
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now, what is the field here?  It says it in the very first verse.

Paul, just read your last comment . . .
I'm struggling with your take on other people's opinions.  You come off sounding judgmental and offensive.  Jesus himself was the most liberal Christian out there.  I think your take on the physical setbacks of careless intimacy is right on.  It's what I mentioned about Paul . . .we can do what ever we want . .but what we want may not always be benificial.

I can't make any sense of you comment "knee jerk reactions of hearing about it need to stop"

The last part of that sentence may be why we're seldom on the same page, you embrace education and information . . .I embrace revelation through relationship.

If people don't have any convictions about their sexual preferences . . . do we really think "we" can control them for them?  I don't think the reason for it was to keep people disease free . . .I think the disease comes from the evidence that they are not walking in truth in the first place . .but that's just me.

Here's one that ought to sting your ears . . .my flesh still wrestles with it . . . You can be gay and still pursue Christ.  (gasp!!!)  It's true!  You don't have to quit being gay when you come to Christ.  Just pursue Christ  . .for real . .and . . .you'll find his nature will change your desire to want to do things that are not of God's will in your life.  I can not change people from the inside out . . .and that's the only way this works. . from the inside out.

Yet we want to turn on these people and tell them they need to change their outside so God will accept their inside.  So . . .you tell a guy God hates gays . .and he doesn't want God to hate him . . .so he quits being gay . . .now what?  Did that make him righteous?  The season for nightwings to change has not yet come . . .but don't condemn him for that.  You can't expect people with out flashlights to see they way around the dark . . .nor would you expect people to become condemning toward them because they can't see.  If you have a light .  . . let them see with the light you have.  You do no one any good by hitting them over the head with your light.

[Molly]

we can do what ever we want . .but what we want may not always be benificial.

In what context is this meant?  Does it mean I can go on a spree robbing banks and shooting people and still be right with God?

But, believe it--there are people who think like this.  I saw a minister who had murdered and dismembered his wife, hid her body, told her children and everyone else that she had run away,  say from his jail cell smugly that he is forgiven by God.

I think to throw this idea around can be a very dangerous thing.

On a smaller level, what if we go to a priest every week and confess our sins, and then leave the confessional, and continue doing the same thing?  Millions of Christians live this way.  I can do what I want and go to confession and say a few hail mary's and then go out and continue doing what I want.

Is this what God is telling us?  No, he is telling us this--

1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I understand what you are saying that people have to change, become convicted, from the inside, but that won't happen unless they stay in Christ and stay in the word.   And, if the word is saying one thing--who am I to say it's saying something totally different?

I understand the spiritual component, but that doesn't mean I can make up my own religion--although people do it all the time.   So, I'm trying to stick as close to the meaning as I can--and test everything with scripture.

In this case, Jesus tells us the field is the world--so who am I to say otherwise?

Jesus spends a lot of time warning us against false shepherds.  He's not warning me against myself--he's warning me against those who would lead me astray.  And, we look out in the world and see them everywhere, leading people so far astray that God is no longer recognizable in what they teach.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Nathan,

I am going to ignore your personal comments to me until a time you wish to be specific enough for me to be bothered with the thought that it might matter.

I can't make any sense of you comment "knee jerk reactions of hearing about it need to stop"

And I am always glad to clarify when asked.
Religious people all to often just react emotionally when they hear of instances of sexual immorality.  It is black and white, no thought of the circumstance, only their reaction of disgust and the condemnation of whoever is doing it.   This will never help solve the problem or lead people to see a loving God.

If people don't have any convictions about their sexual preferences . . . do we really think "we" can control them for them?  I don't think the reason for it was to keep people disease free . . .I think the disease comes from the evidence that they are not walking in truth in the first place . .but that's just me.

I have no illusions of controlling anything, but that is no excuse not to provide true information about what happens physically and emotionally.  Is that the "only" solution?  No, of course not,  but it is a part of it that should not be ignored.

Your point concerning disease  could be true, but doesn't explain people who engage in sex outside of marriage including homosexual activity that do not get diseases.   But, we cannot also point to those who do not in order to make it appear more safe than it actually is.

Here's one that ought to sting your ears . . .my flesh still wrestles with it . . . You can be gay and still pursue Christ.  (gasp!!!)  It's true!  You don't have to quit being gay when you come to Christ.  Just pursue Christ  . .for real . .and . . .you'll find his nature will change your desire to want to do things that are not of God's will in your life.  I can not change people from the inside out . . .and that's the only way this works. . from the inside out.

Why ought it sting my ears?   Your flesh should not wrestle with it, if you understand that you are indeed seeking christ while in sin yourself.  We all are, and pointing fingers at someone you think is worse is the product of the carnal mind denying ones own sin.
I say that not "towards" you but for the purpose of a reminder as we all fall into that trap.


I mainly want to turn people to the Love of God and  that love will save all mankind, period.   But, I also know that there is information and education about our physical world that is useful and will not detract or hinder the progress of spirituality and in many cases can help it.

[Nathan]

I would like to apologize if some of my words today had a stinging sensation with them.  I've not been very diligent in staying on the high road in other conversations and it may have rubbed off with other things I wrote.  I shall try harder in the future to be more of a builder than a demo worker.

Paul, in this last conversation, it would appear we are seeing the same thing, or at least have the same desires.

[rhellis]

Nathan,

I can testify to the truth of what you are saying-- when you are absolutely free to do what you want, yes sex included, that which controls you stops controlling you. By walking in love, I have gained victory over things I once thought I would never conquer.

Just this past weekend, I had a woman give me some vibe. She's going through a divorce, got a lot of problems, and for lack of a better word, easy. I know that I am at liberty, but I could NOT bring myself to take advantage of the situation though my flesh sincerely wanted to. It's so frustrating, dang it, but love is winning in my life. 

[Nathan]

THAT is what a conqueror is!  You stop trying to control your nature, give it up . . .the hardest thing for my religious to do is, give up on trying to quit sinning.  Because that's all my mind wants to focus on . .what is right and what is wrong . .and the more I focus on that kind of thinking, the more it consumes me.  But when I turn it over to God . . . and pursue Christ. . .whitewings . . .you mentioned that the act of pursuing doesn't do anything . . .but there are things happening that my natural eyes and understanding can not see.

My pursuing Christ is changing my direction . .my attention is no longer on the shackles . .it's no longer about what I can and can not do.  I quit worrying about that.  Drinking does not send you to hell . . .smoking does not send you to hell . . .you controlled by them?  Let go of them. . .seriously, smoke away . . .  I can just see some of you guys as you read that.  You're not very agreeable to the idea. 

The one thing law did was, it proved you can't fulfill it.  You break one, you've broken them all.  So many comments on these threads are from those who "want" judgment to fall on everyone who doesn't live according to "their" standards.  Is that really Christ shining through?  Did Jesus really come and die for the whole world . .so that he could turn around and bring damnation on them?  Or did he do it to set us FREE from ourselves?

"But you just said if you have lust of any kind, that it's okay to give into it . . ."  What I said was . . .pursue Christ.  And in the process of your pursuit . . .stop trying to force your outside to conform until your inside has been transformed first.  When you do this, you'll find out just what rhellis experienced . . .when you let go and let God . . .you realize that the addictions you had are not as powerful over you as you thought.  But there first must be a "spiritual" transformation.  I'm in wonderment that so many have been led into UR and yet struggle so much in spiritual matters.

Jesus said "My yoke is EASY and my burden is LIGHT"  All who are WEARY come unto me and I will give you REST." 

That's not being mystic, that's just taking Jesus for his word.  I want rest just as much as the next guy . . .but I never found it by living according to the laws of judgment.  It wasn't until I threw myself with  abandon into the intimacy of God and things begin to change in how I read Scripture and in how I see others.  Rhellis, I'm excited for you.  How awesome that you've experienced victory in these areas that once ruled over you.  Don't let the waterless clouds of others take away from what God has given you.

Blessings.

[WhiteWings]

Nathan,
I never denied there are things that defy logic. Love for example.
For the rest of what you wrote; most likely I'm the only one on this board that doesn't understand it. Sad but true.
I just see one big contradiction in your post.

If I'm a sinning atheist the advise it to become a Christian. When I try to be a Christian I can continue sinning. Or at least don't worry like it. Just like when I was an atheist. Then i didn't worry about it either. That's what many in my country call a 'paper Christian'.
Meaning officially you are a Christian but you can't even spell God so to speak.
If I quit worrying about it guess what happens.

I guess the answer with contain things like, carnal mind, spiritual thinking, etc
No matter how true you words are; you speak a foreign language....

[WhiteWings]

Your right Nathan. I still don't understand it. So I leave it at this.
Anyway thanks for the help :thumbsup:

What I see is that God doesn't react the same way a Christian would who was deeply offended to find out someone they knew was having sexual relations outside of marriage.

If someone says that sex is not something important to consider then they are a fool.   The orphanages are a good example, STD's are another,  and Aids.   

But that's when you practice unsafe sex.
BTW I'm not sure what you mean by having sex outside of marriage. Just all sex or cheating?
If cheating I would say stone him/her.

BTW I'm not claiming I do all those things myself. I'm just saying if there is an agreement between all parties involved then I have no problems with it. Neither am I in even the slightest way a monogamius relationship can't be perfect for many people.

[Nathan]

Alas, speaking in tongues isn't just about your tongue, but it's what comes out of your heart.  It is the Spirit that is foreign to the carnal nature.

You are a perfect example of what I'm saying.  You have professed from the beginning that you choose to live by your reasoning . . . I'm again, not condemning you, I just think that you are a perfect example to all those religious people who read these posts.  Take note of what's been shared here . . .even a person who has openly professed his faith in his logic . . .can not understand the spiritual light.  

The mind of reason does not have the capacity to understand the spirit of God.  I didn't say this . . .Romans says it.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The law of God is not religious conformity . . .it is love.  And Love is as big as grace.  

When "I" force myself to quit smoking (for example) . .God didn't help me . .I did it.  But if I just pursue Christ . . .fill my head with spiritual truth, talk to him . .talk about him . .sing . .worship . .set my thoughts on things above . . . in the process of this, these addictions will run their course and come to an end.  You've read the testimony yourself . . .I'm not making this up.

You've been bound in religious thinking long enough, I'm just trying to help you find freedom that Scripture professes . . .don't hear much about freedom from the religious, they're to busy trying to follow their list of do's and don'ts.  It's not about "me" . .never was.  It's always about Christ and He is Spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY.