Tentmaker Forum

And off-topic question to reformer (mods delete at will)

Is marriage needed?
The way I understand it....
Marriage as in the wedding ceremony is just an act of man.
When two people have sex(ual acts/feeling) God marries their spirits.
So simply put the one that takes your virginity is the one you are married to by God.
So sex outside of 'human marriage' is no issue. The issue starts when you break up and have sex with another person. So I would say a more correct action would be marry instead of breaking up.
Your first sex act is your marriage act.

Ok, I've bought an asbestos suite; so people "Flame on!"  :laughing7:

I agree in that there seems to be a spiritual transfer between two people to share this union of intimacy together . . .It also helps me understand sometimes the problems people experience in relationship matters with their current spouse/partner.  At the same time, I also believe there is a healthy application of grace that must be applied as well.  To expect the indivual who lost their virginity (which usually is when they're quite young) to now marry that other person . . . it would more than likely create more problems than solutions.

Righteousness doesn't come through acting out good morals . . . good morals actually are birthed through righteousness.  But to turn around and try to now enforce a life-long committment with the two individuals, you've in your attempt to be righteous, have reverted to living by law. 

Just thinking out loud

Nathan I was just explaining how I read it in the Bible. Not even my personal discovery. Knowledge from some article that I checked out and seems to match up with how I read the verses.
I would be a hypocrite when i said that's how I live or how my views of marriage are.
To be perfectly honest with you I still don't see the slightest problem with for example a daily (gay) orgy. :sigh:
So when I quote a Bible verse, even a relavant one, that doesn't always mean I agree with it.
I wouldn't be suprised I know more English rude language than many of the UK/US people here. But that just doesn't fit in this forum. I (try to) play by the rules and only show my religious side on this forum.
Lets say honesty is one of my few virtue's....

My search on the topic of marriage/virginity started not for myself. I can't go into details because its not my own personal life. But still I would like your or anyones elses view on the topic. I know the daugther of a collegue of mine. Nothing sexual at all I must add. Mainly by Bible related e-mail chats. She had a few boyfriends. She had a 8 year depressing period after her mother died of cancer when she was quite young but still very aware about death. Someone said 'why not try to pray'. She did and she claims that she prayed before going to sleep and at morning all here past sorrows where gone. She's thankful and wants to show that by living more Biblical.
Now she has a boyfriend she likes. Sex is also a way of showing love. So she struggles with having sex and having a Bible (outside marriage). Needless to say that I, as someone that doesn't even need to know someones name to have sex,  am not the best to give advice on this matter. The best I can do is honestly look up some quotes. But I ain't exactly skilled in the Bible :laughing7:

Okay, let's tackle this . . .all religiousness put aside . . . Let me share my own experience with this topic.  About 2 years ago . .maybe a little longer, I had a niece attending my church . . .I was very adamant about letting go of the law and turning to life, pursuing Christ, let the Spirit do what Scripture says it does in others and refrain from inflicting my standards on them . . .I was doing great with this until I learned that this niece was sexually active with her boyfriend . . . every time I wanted to pull her aside and tell her that this was a dangerous game to play . . .a question would arise . .the same one every time. 

If she quit or continued, would it make her righteous?  In the flesh, it's the best experience this side of heaven . . .but at the same time, it's also a big problem.  It's a big problem in that it can lead to unexpected pregnancy, it can become abusive, it can be the "only" think keeping two people, who shouldn't be together, together.  Then there is the heightened oppotunity for diseases . . .but yet, none of those things are spiritually related.  Paul said I can do anything I want to do . . .I have the freedom to choose whatever I want . . .but on the other side, there may be things that I choose to do that are not benificial to me.

If it were me personally, I would highly advise against it . . .and that's all I could do.  Quoting Scripture . . .you've seen these forums . . . I could quote a Scripture supporting the fact that it's not going to affect her end result . . .and I could quote Scriptures telling you it's an abomination.  But if there is no conviction within her, there is no use trying to become the Holy Spirit . . . only the spirit can convict, all people do is condemn.

I would however, tell you what my supervisor told me in the early stages of my trying to live by what I preach . . . just love on them.  If you try to take matters in your own hands, you're just inflicting the very law that we're to be free from.  And here is the misunderstanding of this message.  People will take it to mean that you can do anything you want and God will ignore it because of grace.  I'm not saying that, I'm saying pursue Christ, and love on her . . .let Christ change her, that's what he does best.

If she continues to have intimacy with her boyfriend . . . if we live in grace and not law, love on her just the same with no condemnation or control.  Our goal is not to get her to quit sleeping with the boyfriend . . .our goal is to have her experience true grace in Christ.  When she does that, Christ will take care of her thought life . .and love life.  If I go to her and tell her I know what she's doing and it's wrong and she should quit . . .say she does . .then what?  Is she more righteous?

We want to measure our relationship with God by our works . .because people use passages about knowing who the disciples are by their fruit . . .but most over look the fact that Jesus wasn't giving us a free license to judge each other .  . he was actually referring to those who were false teachers and such . . .you will know the truth in them by the fruit they bear . . .if they bear sour fruit, you'll know of what man they are from . .and rather than approach them and condemn them . . .all he's saying is . . .don't receive from them.

Remember how Jesus handled the woman in adultery . . .if there ever was an opportunity for Jesus to hand down pious judgment, that was it . .but yet, instead of judging her, he set her free . . ."YA . .AND TOLD HER NOT TO SIN ANYMORE . . ."  yeah, he said that . .you think that if she did it again he wouldn't forgive her again?  Grace is much more powerful than the church gives it credit for.

I also believe . .now that you opened the can of worms, God loves and forgives a gay person just as quickly as he forgives this friend of yours.

Incidentally, I find it interesting that you feel it's okay to be gay .  .but yet you're concerned for this girl sleeping with her boyfriend . .or did I read that wrong?

Blessings.

Thanks for the quick, clear an lengthy answer Nathan :thumbsup:

QuoteI could quote a Scripture supporting the fact that it's not going to affect her end result . . .and I could quote Scriptures telling you it's an abomination.  But if there is no conviction within her, there is no use trying to become the Holy Spirit . . . only the spirit can convict, all people do is condemn.

Please quote some verses. Personally I'm interessed in it too. Especially the 'not affect' ones.
If not to much trouble please quote 3-5 of each.
And only the very to the point ones because she and I aren't Bible gurus.

QuoteIncidentally, I find it interesting that you feel it's okay to be gay .  .but yet you're concerned for this girl sleeping with her boyfriend . .or did I read that wrong?

Though questions. Let me say it turns my stomach when i think of male gay acts (not the lesbian ones) But still I wish them all the happiness in their (sexual) life.
I ask you because I'm curious and because I feel I must answer her as fully as I can.
As I made clear I'm not exactly religious. And if ET exists I'm really am toast. (and not in the outer circles of Dantes hell) But that doesn't mean I want to drag her down with me.... So when she asks for 'advise' I want to give a Biblical advice. My mortal advice would be "Also try with another woman and man at the same time.' See what you like best before making a final commitment."

I hope that clears up your question. If not ask! :bgdance:

Romans 13 says that God respects and acknowledges the rights of civil authority.  In the Gospel of John chapter 2 it says that the first miracle that Jesus ever performed was at a wedding.  Many people today have believed in their hearts that their marriage was the first miracle Christ performed in their lives as well.  In the Gospel of John chapter 4 Jesus very specifically busted someone living with a man that He emphatically said was not her husband.  So, according to Jesus, a lustful deed without going through the socially acknowledged commitment process isn't a marriage.  1Corinthians 7 specifically says that marriage is not a sin, implying that St. Paul's sexual immorality comments and related comments about not inheriting the Kingdom apply to everything outside of a genuine marriage.  Hebrews 13:4 says that marriage is honorable and the marriage bed undefiled, but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.  I've fornicated before in a so-called committed to someone context and I've been married, and there is a glaring difference spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, and in every other way.  The actual marriage experience isn't worth missing out on when Father God brings that special one into your life.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2008, 08:30:04 AM
And off-topic question to reformer (mods delete at will)

Is marriage needed?
The way I understand it....
Marriage as in the wedding ceremony is just an act of man.
When two people have sex(ual acts/feeling) God marries their spirits.
So simply put the one that takes your virginity is the one you are married to by God.
So sex outside of 'human marriage' is no issue. The issue starts when you break up and have sex with another person. So I would say a more correct action would be marry instead of breaking up.
Your first sex act is your marriage act.

Ok, I've bought an asbestos suite; so people "Flame on!"  :laughing7:

I would make the point that marriage in an of itself is meaningless if it's an act to just appease guilt or from religious pressure.

From a common sense standpoint,  we can see the results in our country of not seeking someone to love and spend your life with first for that is a more secure and peaceful way no matter what someone wants to talk about morally.   The spiritual aspect is for God to work out.   


In fact,  a "religious" ceremony doesn't mean squat for the inter workings of the two people who got married as seen in the religious community that doesn't have a significantly better stance with their track record to back them up.

I know personally two people that had the most religiously influenced ceremony you could ever imagine right down to scripture being read at every change of routine.   They are now divorced and the wife was almost beaten to death by her husband.   The ceremony was meaningless.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 22, 2008, 02:31:10 AM
I would make the point that marriage in an of itself is meaningless if it's an act to just appease guilt or from religious pressure.

Few marriages are because of guilt or because of religious pressure, unless they're arranged marriages among the wealthy where the needs of the two young people involved aren't taken into account, but social standing and whatever else is being bartered over one or two rings.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 22, 2008, 02:31:10 AM
I know personally two people that had the most religiously influenced ceremony you could ever imagine right down to scripture being read at every change of routine.   They are now divorced and the wife was almost beaten to death by her husband.   The ceremony was meaningless.

It's regrettable that many, many marriages do end this way.  Too many of them don't end in "at death do us part."  But the ceremony was what made them married.  Speaking from experience here and not just "letter of the law."  If they weren't living the Word prior to the ceremony, then obviously it was little more than self-deceptive that they were hearers of the Word and not doers of it.  But that was a pre-existant rebellion in their souls to the Word that had nothing to do with the marriage process.  Some could argue that the sex was meaningless that brought about a kid that grew up to be a mass murderer.  No, the sex was the process that brought the child into the world, just as the ceremony was the process of bringing the marriage into the world.  It's what they did with that afterwards that for the biggest part determined whether they were people of their word and of the Word or just people of the world, even if they claimed to be Christians.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 22, 2008, 03:19:17 AM
Few marriages are because of guilt or because of religious pressure, unless they're arranged marriages among the wealthy where the needs of the two young people involved aren't taken into account, but social standing and whatever else is being bartered over one or two rings.

Within religion I would have to say that there is an overtone of marriage being the greater focus than two people being together.   I knew a pastor that married two people only because of them living together, no counseling,  even though we knew them and knew they had no business being married and it would of been easier on them both if they found this out while living together and not married because of the legal BS that goes along with it.

Quote
No, the sex was the process that brought the child into the world, just as the ceremony was the process of bringing the marriage into the world.  It's what they did with that afterwards that for the biggest part determined whether they were people of their word and of the Word or just people of the world, even if they claimed to be Christians.

The marriage ceremony is culturally driven as a symbol of comittment, but it has no bearing on the reality.   Me and my wife were married long before the ceremony because our hearts and souls were bound as one in comittment long before ever being in the physical ritual.  To some we were not living "in the word" but thats because religion equates rituals to spirituality and that is not truth.  We would have been together the same amount of time if we never walked down the isle.

Thats why the focus on the sanctity of marriage is about a ritual, not really about hearts.

For me a good relationship is founded on 3 pillars.
Trust, friendship and sex. And as statistics show bad sex accounts for a huge percentage of failed relationships.
As we say you also testdrive a new car before buying. That may sound rude but look at it this way.
The friendship (and trust) part is based on common ground. Just as all the friends you have in your life have some common ground with you.
Fans of the same sportsclub for example. A relationship stretches that concept to the extreme.
Don't get me wrong, sex with someone you love adds an extra dimension. But what if after long years of waiting you unwrap your wedding present so to speak and the two partners aren't sexually compatible?

Going off-topic now in my own thread.
How long does a marriage last in the eyes of God?
Does it automatically end at death?

Are there marriages after death? (in Heaven)
If yes are they new marriages?
I ask because of the following.
Suppose a loving husband remarried 2 times because both his previous wives died in a accident.
(not at the same time...)
Once arrived in Heaven there are 3 woman wearing a wedding ring they got from that man.
How is that situation handled? Does he have to drink a lot of energy drinks? Or worse does he have 3 mothers-in-law :)
How is that situation handled?

Through previous conversations with you, my friend, a voice has been softly speaking in the back of my heart since this thread started.  I don't want to come off sounding religious myself . . . but the truth is, what you are looking for, we can give you words, but until you have a personal experience with the Spirit of truth in your own heart, these are just going to remain merely words.

Having said that, you're latest question, marriage between a man and a woman is not feesible in heaven.  For one, "we" are the bride and "Christ" is the groom.  That is the only marriage happening in the spirit.  What we do here on earth is again, patterned after what Christ is to us in the spirit.  All things happening naturally, including our attempts to understand scripture with our "natural" logic, are all temporary.  They are not eternal.  My marriage of 20 years with my wife will no longer be when my breath leaves this body of flesh.  There is a transformation of body, and soul at the transition between the death of this natural life, and the life in spirit following.  To the natural mind, it's still very much a mystery.  But there will be no marrying in the spirit realm with anyone other than Christ.

Third,
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

In the spirit, there is no longer a differentiation between male and female . .we are spirit.

Lastly,
Matthew 22
23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

27And last of all the woman died also.

28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven

Quote from: Nathan on August 22, 2008, 03:28:29 PM
Through previous conversations with you, my friend, a voice has been softly speaking in the back of my heart since this thread started.  I don't want to come off sounding religious myself . . . but the truth is, what you are looking for, we can give you words, but until you have a personal experience with the Spirit of truth in your own heart, these are just going to remain merely words.

I've made very aware of that by the 1000s of posts on this board. But still I think words are a good start.
Even if I only understand 10% of them it's a 10%  gain...
And why there is a Bible? Only words too.
Or are you saying if the HS has a plan to visit met November 10th 2011. It comes at that date no matter what by behavior is right then?

Words are seed . . .when the aligment is right within us, then life will grow.  The alignment is that we are spirit first, soul second, body third.  When we walk according to our soul (mind) we cut off the abiltity to reproduce life in us . .spiritually speaking.  Of course, words are important . . .but like everything else . . .Jesus spoke words .. . but they didn't understand a word he said . .because they had not yet received the outpouring of the spirit on all flesh to illuminate what the words were saying.

To be honest . . .you say you're here asking questions on behalf of someone else . . .I think God has been calling you . .nothing is by cooincidence.  And the knowledge you have was never meant for you to keep, but to share . . you have a wealth of truth in you . . .God wants to anoint that and set you free from yourself . . . keep playing around on these forums and you could just find yourself transformed before you realize it :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

Hi again Nathan.

Life will grow if the alignment is correct. But my alignment never will be correct because I'm thinking with my soul.
The famous chicken an egg story...

I can assure you I ask the question on behalf of someone else. Not that I'm asked to do so in a direct or indirect way. And yes it's also for my own understanding. I just remembered her question of 2-3 months ago and thought it was a good question to ask. But I guess your answer is that God has 'set me up'
Makes me remember the verse I've read 10 minutes ago.
Genesis 50:19-20  And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

And for the HS visiting me.... I don't know the saying in English but some people won't even recognise an elephant when it's standing on their toes...  :laughing7:
Surely I hope for a visit but I'm more certain I will win the lottery twice in a row to be honest. The HS can spend its time more effective elsewhere. Defrosting my cold  :HeartThrob: is a tought job. Even for the HS I fear.
But that said. And all my jokes and sarcasm put aside I really am here to learn something. Not to tease so Christians. Or mock the Bible.

Yeah . . .God's setting you up all right.  No condemnation against you for admitting you live by your head . . . but the draw back to that is, the dimensional stuff will be a struggle for you to grasp.  Even now, you're mind doesn't know, or recognize the voice of the spirit . . .you think these are just words for your head . .when we've made it as clear as we could, these are not words of knowledge, but words of revelation . . not that one person here is above any others . .it's all by grace that we see what we see.

You'll be much more effective to your friend by sharing with her a personal experience in truth, rather than relaying to her information that you yourself have not fully received.  The door there is open . . .and you're already peering into it, just step in it . .believe with your heart . who cares what your head thinks at this point .  . . I gotta tell ya, I've never had so much fun in all my life in the things of God than I've had these last few years since he has led me to this church to lead it away from the church . . .what a hoot!!

Nathan, your words are very good and refreshing to me. I sense a kindred spirit of a sort, I mean above and beyond the spirit relationship we have in Christ......OK, that doesn't sound right either as the relationship in Christ is the ultimate but you get my drift.

To WW, I want to say that I believe Jesus, via the Spirit tells us we are the world that God so loves and within this world is the Kingdom of God.lk17.21 Also within this world, WW, within you, are your enemies. Jesus said the enemies are those of his own household.mt10.36

So, the way I see it, within you there is a battle going on. IMO in the Old Testement all the battles and wars and bloodshed and so forth are showing us what is going on within us at any given moment.

I don't want to get too complicated or 'way out there' but I think this lines up too with what Jesus teaches about the Kingdom of Heaven being like a man sowing seed.

WW, in you seed has been sown and it may be dormant from your view but your very interest in the things of the spirit, however little, are signs that the seed maybe is sprouting. The seed is the word of God and it is spread into the world.

If any of this helps WW, I will continue but maybe it's just donkey fodder to you right now so I'll stop.

Hang in there.

cp

Oh, I forgot something. This may sound corny but as I read all the stuff about marriage I couldn't help thinking about Forrest Gump. An old movie but I watched it recently so it is stuck in my mind. I was thinking how he loved Jenny unconditionally. How, from one point of view, they were married. All the others that she had sex with were not even close to her husband. Now Forrest's love so worked that an actual marriage took place which I think is a very good thing. We humans need structure while in the flesh.

Forrest too is such a great picture of unconditional love. Strength in innocence.

Anyway, just my additional 2 cents worth.

cp

This is basically what I believe:

QuoteThe couple, on the other hand, who love not their lives unto the death of the self nature, who have learned the art of submission, and who truly love their spouse enough to die for them, will find a veritable heaven on earth in the one life which the two have become. And the two become one only when both partakers of the covenant are dead. As it is in the spiritual, so it is in the natural. Marriage, then, is not so much a matter of "until death do we part," as it is "until death do we JOIN!"

My husband and I sometimes remark to each other how we feel we are one person who was split into two people.

my mother and father were this way, too.

I believe there is a great mystery...
I believe some find their other half while on this earth and others will be reunited with them when they leave this earth.

Either THAT or my husband will be my absolute closest, best friend in heaven...
I'm ok with that, too.

But I DEFINITELY believe that we will still be close with those whom we loved.

Quote from: claypot on August 22, 2008, 11:31:23 PM
We humans need structure while in the flesh. Forrest too is such a great picture of unconditional love. Strength in innocence.

Yup!

Quote from: martincisneros on August 22, 2008, 01:53:45 AM
Romans 13 says that God respects and acknowledges the rights of civil authority.  In the Gospel of John chapter 2 it says that the first miracle that Jesus ever performed was at a wedding.  Many people today have believed in their hearts that their marriage was the first miracle Christ performed in their lives as well.  In the Gospel of John chapter 4 Jesus very specifically busted someone living with a man that He emphatically said was not her husband.  So, according to Jesus, a lustful deed without going through the socially acknowledged commitment process isn't a marriage.  1 Corinthians 7 specifically says that marriage is not a sin, implying that St. Paul's sexual immorality comments and related comments about not inheriting the Kingdom apply to everything outside of a genuine marriage.  Hebrews 13:4 says that marriage is honorable and the marriage bed undefiled, but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

This is another topic about which many books have already been written.  What Martin wrote in post #5 quoted above is very good and well expresses my belief too.  One thing I would add is marriage is not only before God, but in the midst of human community.  We not only marry in the eyes of God, but in the sight of other men. Normally, we expect to produce the fruit of our union, children, for which we are responsible and that we bequeath to the human community.  Our marriage is a public statement of our recognition of responsibility to those around us for what we produce in a child.  It also conscripts society around us to take care of the offspring we produce should something happen to us so we can't fulfill our obligation.

I don't agree it doesn't matter what we do here, it will all be the same in the end.  Yes all are included in God's great house ultimately; but, there will be ranks or orders, not all in the same glory or intimacy with God.  "...even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified (made alive.)  Yet each in his own class (order:) the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation (end)..." (1 Cor 15:2-4)  Different seeds (including things said and done here in this veil of flesh) have differing fruit.  Various areas of specialization in the Divine nature will produce great variety among God's forever family.  Each seems to have at least a physical and a spiritual body, with all differing.  There also are differing splendors.

1 Corinthians 15:35-41 (Young's Literal Translation):
35 But some one will say, `How do the dead rise?
36 unwise! thou--what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die;
37 and that which thou dost sow, not the body that shall be dost thou sow, but bare grain, it may be of wheat, or of some one of the others,
38 and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;
40 and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
41 one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.

You would do well to even re-read 1 Cor 15 in CLV if you can and meditate on it.

(I don't feel I have even achieved an introduction to some of what I want to say here.  Hopefully later, when there's more time.)

your brother, James M Rohde

Quote from: reFORMer on August 23, 2008, 07:13:24 AM
Yes all are included in God's great house ultimately; but, there will be ranks or orders, not all in the same glory or intimacy with God...Different seeds (including things said and done here in this veil of flesh) have differing fruit.  Various areas of specialization in the Divine nature will produce great variety among God's forever family.  Each seems to have at least a physical and a spiritual body, with all differing.  There also are differing splendors.

I'm after being a part of the highest order that shines with the brightest splendor.  St. Paul was terrified by the idea of not competing according to the rules, missing the gold medal, and being just average in the coming world.  That's where I've been at for nearly 20 years.  There isn't anything that I won't do within the framework of the Biblical rules to win.  When I bump into Christians that get testy with me that it doesn't take all of that, I already know what their future is going to be.  For me, it's water off of a duck's back.  I don't have time to listen to it.   There were a couple of Gentiles in the 4 Gospels that Jesus was totally blown away by their faith.  I work daily to startle Him in that regard more than they ever did.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 23, 2008, 08:16:47 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on August 23, 2008, 07:13:24 AM
Yes all are included in God's great house ultimately; but, there will be ranks or orders, not all in the same glory or intimacy with God...Different seeds (including things said and done here in this veil of flesh) have differing fruit.  Various areas of specialization in the Divine nature will produce great variety among God's forever family.  Each seems to have at least a physical and a spiritual body, with all differing.  There also are differing splendors.

I'm after being a part of the highest order that shines with the brightest splendor. St. Paul was terrified by the idea of not competing according to the rules, missing the gold medal, and being just average in the coming world.  That's where I've been at for nearly 20 years.  There isn't anything that I won't do within the framework of the Biblical rules to win. When I bump into Christians that get testy with me that it doesn't take all of that, I already know what their future is going to be.  For me, it's water off of a duck's back.  I don't have time to listen to it.   There were a couple of Gentiles in the 4 Gospels that Jesus was totally blown away by their faith.  I work daily to startle Him in that regard more than they ever did.

seriously, Martin? This is what it's about for you?

Quote from: sparrow on August 23, 2008, 08:23:42 AM
seriously, Martin? This is what it's about for you?

How else would one be servant of all there, if one weren't servant of all here?

Quote from: martincisneros on August 23, 2008, 09:25:14 AM

Quote from: sparrow on August 23, 2008, 08:23:42 AM
seriously, Martin? This is what it's about for you?

How else would one be servant of all there, if one weren't servant of all here?

Not sure how that answers my question?
How are you being a servant here if you see this as a contest to "win" out over others?
I don't get what you're saying, can you please clarify?

In Philippians 3 Paul talks about being in a race.  In accordance with the goal he says, "...am I pursuing into the prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus." (vs.15)  If it must be for a time you seek, waiting on God, then the path is passive reception; but, he's not lying in a porch at the pool of Bethesda hoping someone will come along and help.  He is aggressively apprehending.  Just prior to describing toward what he aspires with active stretching out to a prize in a competition, a prize defined as being summoned by God into a higher dimension in Christ, he speaks of his target as, "...attaining into the out resurrection that is out from among the dead." (vs.11)  After calling it a prize in a race he says "...our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (vs.20-22)  This prize is physical metamorphosis, the salvation of our bodies.  It is overcoming our mortality.  The liberation of the Glory frees the created aspect from the slavery of corruption. (cf., Rom 8:21)  The Lord's spirit present in our body metamorphoses it, by an out raying of glory into greater glory. (cf., 2 Cor 3:17-18)

What the Authorized Version translates with the word "perfect" also means "mature" and "finished" in Greek.  The "finish" line in this race is where our "maturity" is brought to "perfection."  The issue is to beat death.  We seek to obtain being so possessed of God, to grasp for what God has grasped us, (cp., vs. 12) that we arrive at sufficient "maturity" to be out of whatever is dead.  Rather than being aged by the dying or mortal processes we would be matured by Christ into deathlessness, immortality and incorruptible life.  "Corruption [is not] enjoying the allotment (inheritance) of incorruption." (1 Cor 15:50)  Whatever of the body is a decaying (or corrupting) corpse it cannot obtain incorruption.  The same is said in that passage of flesh and blood not obtaining the kingdom of God.  The mystery is we shall not all sleep (in death,) "...yet we all shall be changed."  This metamorphosis is the mystery we must be shown, we must see.  Whatever impact our devotion may have had on our entrance into the Divine nature, there is ultimately no choice, "For this corruptible MUST put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality."  Not the mortified which means already dead, but the mortal, those dying with the aging processes, this is who must put on deathlessness or immortality."  Those appointed royal priests in whom this grace strives now apprehend to impart to others what they have obtained.  Any getting there ahead of anybody else is only to bring the others in.

It is a contest.  The race is against death.  "The wages of sin is death."  That the principle manifestation of the Adversary is through humans seems incontrovertible.  But it is not only what within ourselves operates in the realm of death which is the sphere in which sin reigns, (cf., Rom 5:21) it is through others affecting us also.  Our "battle is not with flesh and blood," our own or others', yet the immature readily mistake it for such.  The truly carnal commit to prove it in actual battles with physical weapons against their misidentified opponents.  Well, by this time they may well be actual co-deceived opponents.  But the victory over death is achieved in another war.  It is in the liberty from God's presence, by, "...uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory...being transformed into the same image, from glory into glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit." (2 Cor 4:14)  "For if you are living in accord with flesh, you are about to be dying.  Yet if, in spirit, you are putting the practices of the body to death, you will be living." (Rom 8:13)  "...we are suffering together [with Christ,] that we should be glorified together also." (Rom 8:17)  So, to be clothed with glory, "I am...deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ, and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ (His faith,) the righteousness which is out from God on faith:  to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death, if somehow I should be attaining into the out resurrection that is out from among the dead." (Philp 3:8-11)


your brother, James M. Rohde

Forgive me.  I know sparrow was asking Martin the question; but, I just had to answer.  I've been wanting to write out "This Metamorphosis:  the Race Against Death" for a while.  I repeated it as a seperate post initiating a new thread.  Any getting there ahead of anybody else is to bring the others in.

Quote from: sparrow on August 23, 2008, 03:46:25 PM
Not sure how that answers my question?
How are you being a servant here if you see this as a contest to "win" out over others?
I don't get what you're saying, can you please clarify?

And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. (Mark 9:35)
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:28)
14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. (John 13:14-17)
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40)
12 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. (John 14:12)
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth; (1Peter 2:19-22)

All of life is a contest to see who can be the greatest servant!  Those who grumble and complain about doing things for others are already disqualifying themselves for the prize.  It's those who do the Word and aren't just hearers that'll be praised in their deeds.  Reigning with Christ is washing feet with Christ.  The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Servants.  Life is a race to destroy the most yokes and to remove the most burdens.  By the end of my life, I'll have done something really significant, in the Name of Jesus, for each man, woman, child, animal, and spirit on the whole planet.  Perhaps I'll have done even more than even that, but I won't get into specifics here of what's going on.  There are no limits when it's really about others :cloud9:

Quote from: martincisneros on August 23, 2008, 09:13:47 PM
All of life is a contest to see who can be the greatest servant!  Those who grumble and complain about doing things for others are already disqualifying themselves for the prize.  It's those who do the Word and aren't just hearers that'll be praised in their deeds.  Reigning with Christ is washing feet with Christ.  The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Servants.  Life is a race to destroy the most yokes and to remove the most burdens.  By the end of my life, I'll have done something really significant, in the Name of Jesus, for each man, woman, child, animal, and spirit on the whole planet.  Perhaps I'll have done even more than even that, but I won't get into specifics here of what's going on. There are no limits when it's really about others :cloud9:

How come? you don't have to answer if you don't want to... but ya put it out there, it's mean to leave me hanging like this... :laughing7:

What is Marriage?

Marriage ceremonies have developed over the centuries and vary from culture to culture, but at the most primitive level, once you slept with someone, they became your spouse.
Having a legal bit of paper and a ceremony is fine, but God does not work according to bits of paper.

If you sleep with someone, either it is adultary, or it is marriage.
If you are thinking of sleeping with someone, consider this.
For one night sex, are you prepared to pay the price in terms of responsibility, and life long commitment as described in Ephesians as to husbands and wives commitment to each other?

-----------
I don't think sex is as much a moral issue as we humans make of it. God is not as offended or shocked as many of us humans are by what others of us do sexually.
(e.g. Sampson's "illegal" choice of a wife "was of the Lord"; David's adultery lead to the birth of Solomon, etc.)

In the OT God seems to work with whatever social arrangement was in vogue (polygamy, marriage of relatives, virginity a salable commodity, women as property).
The rules he made about the sexual conduct of the Israelites, with particular reference to the Levites, were not based on morality, but simply a means of separating between Israel and the Nations. They are rules of ceremonial, or ritual, cleanliness.

Just as there is no chapter and verse for the sex=marriage scenario, so there is no chapter and verse for God's universal law of marriage.
Of course, there is the ideal, one man and one woman, joined in youth, for life. But since Adam's time, the lives of us all are less than the ideal.
Marriage, and divorce, are civil laws, written to accomodate our weakness.

------------
Actually in the OT marital sex and extra-marital sex are treated differently.

Adultery was a capital offense.
Rape was a capital offense.

Consentual sex by two unmarried people was NOT a capital offense.
It was punished by forced marriage (if the girl's father approved), or by a fine.
In the O.T. culture virginity was not a moral issue.
In that culture a wife was considered property, and a virgin daughter was a financial commodity, purchased by dowry.
Multiple marriage was approved. So there's nothing intrinsically immoral with multiple sex partners.

As regulated in the OT, adultery is not being unfaithful to your own wife, but having a sexual relation with comeone else's wife.
The sin of adultery is not against your wife, but against your neighbor, whose property you have violated.

------------

The Bible refers to marriage as a covenant:

Malachi 2:14 - You ask, "Why?" It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

A covenant is a legal attachment, and much more than that -- with a covenant, we receive blessings from God, but if we break that covenant, we will not see the full blessings of it.

-------------

A Chaplain friend of mine, inquired before the LORD about what constitutes a marriage.
After sometime in prayer, he felt he received the following verse as what God considers as necessary to fulfill a marriage contract.

2Cor 13:1 - "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

Therefore, when a couple are willing make their vows before 2 or 3 witnesses, THEY BECOME MARRIED.
Considering that marriage is essentially a contract between two people, before God, I would think that a "formal" ceremony is not necessary. God knows what's in the heart, and sex between people who are spiritually married need not have a "formal" contract from your local seminary graduate.

Not withstanding........one might want to be in compliances with the laws of the land also.......so get a marriage license & a preacher and make it official.(Rom 13:7).

.

The concept that you're married to the first person you have sex with is legalistic and in my opinion unscriptural. Even in the law, sex outside of marriage was punishable by death-- if the act of sex married a couple, why punish them (further, ha ha ha)? Why not just accept them as a married couple?

And what about the hundreds of thousands of women who are raped? Are they married to their rapists?

But to answer your question-- or at least what I feel about it as a 38 year old single man who has never been married. I believe God joins hearts, and the ceremony should merely be a recognition of what has happened. There was a time when I wanted to marry. I'm not too sure about that anymore-- even if I met and fell deeply in love with the right girl. When a couples' hearts are joined, ceremony is superfluous. The best a person can hope for in the male/female equation is to join hearts, and if that happens, nothing can stand in the way of it. If it doesn't, nothing in the world, including a ceremony or sex or both, can make it a marriage.

don't think sex is as much a moral issue as we humans make of it. God is not as offended or shocked as many of us humans are by what others of us do sexually.

I think you're much closer to truth than most on this issue, but let me push the envelope and say that I don't think God is as interested in the sin in us nearly as much as we are.  Even Paul states that I can do what ever I want . . it's just that not everything I do is benificial.

The emphasis shouldn't be on me doing whatever I want . .it should be . . .to me . ..it should be the pursuit of Christ.  Now, I know that may sound piously religious, but what I'm trying to say is, if I pursue Christ, the process of my pursuit will be also that which purges my fleshly desires out of me at the same time.  I'm not perfect, I still screw up, have a bad attitude with some things . . .and there've been those times where I've even thrown myself at the mercy of God begging him to remove these areas where I fall down most often . . .only to come to realize . .again . . .he's not nearly as concerned about my shortcomings as much as I am.  It's back to the tares and wheat . . . I am not the wheat, nor am I the tares . . I am the field.  When the wheat in me comes to maturity, God will harvest me . . .spiritually, and as the wheat is loosely tossed into the air, the wind does the separating . . .as I feel like I'm freefalling sometimes . . .in that state, there is a sifting of flesh and spirit taking place.

I've found that there are a lot of issues that I really struggled over . .that when I just let go . . .and if . .this may sound very controversial, but it's how it happened with me .  .when I gave into the temptation and continued to pursue Christ without the guilt and shame . .it wasn't long before that which I thought controlled me . . .LEFT ME.  But it didn't happen until I quit trying to defeat the problem.  And this is really what manifested in me later . . .God isn't nearly as concerned about your bad habits as much as you are.  When you let go . . .then God will let it go from you.  The key is, don't stop pursuing Christ.

You have a history of sleeping around?  Pursue Christ . . ."he'll" change your desire . .don't try to force it yourself . . .you'll only become frustrated and depressed.  Let go of it . . .pursue Christ . . .and God will let it go from you.

Quote from: nathanIt's back to the tares and wheat . . . I am not the wheat, nor am I the tares . . I am the field.

Are you also the world?


Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mmmmzzz, if sex is no big deal why got people stoned to death for it? Why not, say, 3 whiplashes?

Because they didn't understand grace . . .the law is what gives sin it's strength.  Remember the woman caught in the act?  Did Jesus respond your way? 

Molly, we are the field, he is the gardener, we are the world, we are trees, we are turbulant seas, we are clouds, we are also clouds without water . . .we are branches, we are fruit . . .we are in every parable, depending on the story or context.  We are the lost son, we are the elder son, we are eagles, we are worms . . . we are the blind, the deaf, we are the seeing.  We are Peter, we are the Pharisees . . . the list is really endless.

Nathan,

I'm totally confused by your post.

QuoteEven Paul states that I can do what ever I want . . it's just that not everything I do is benificial.

Indeed a 1000 extra years in the oven isn't beneficial.

QuoteThe emphasis shouldn't be on me doing whatever I want . .it should be . . .to me . ..it should be the pursuit of Christ.

Isn't the pursuit of Christ trying not to sin? I know I deserve to get slapped now because I mix up faith with works. And that God controls me. I should repent of my sins etc.
It's very hard for me to repent for something I see no harm in. For me there are only 2 sexual sins. Forced sex and cheating.
When reading about the other sexual sins I just think "And? What's the big deal if all participants enjoy?"
For me it's like saying "I'm a Bible scolar" When asked how long my study took I answer "Well to be honest with you I didn't unwrap my Bible yet. But I *do* have the intention!"
Being in pursuit is an activity. Not just doing nothing or even worse do things that are against the whole goal or pursuit.

QuoteRemember the woman caught in the act?  Did Jesus respond your way?

Please give me a verse number.

Dude, I warned you about this . . until you experience Truth for yourself rather than just observe it from the banks . . .it will be frustrating for you to grasp.  I'm not condemning you, I'm just sayin this is how it is.

Pursuing Christ has nothing to do with trying not to sin.  Jesus is not sin-conscious, we are.  But by pursuing Christ, that "breaks" us free from becoming sin conscious. 

Having said that . . .it does worry me a little about your repeated acceptance of sexual encounters . .. but again, I'm not your holy Spirit . .but you'll know when God speaks to you . . .cuz chances are, you won't like it . . .I know there've been many times I didn't either . .and I ended up in more trouble for ignoring Him when I should have been embracing him.

At any rate . . . you asked for a passage . . .

John 8
1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Your right Nathan. I still don't understand it. So I leave it at this.
Anyway thanks for the help :thumbsup:

Quote from: Nathan on August 25, 2008, 06:13:13 PM
Because they didn't understand grace . . .the law is what gives sin it's strength.  Remember the woman caught in the act?  Did Jesus respond your way? 

Molly, we are the field, he is the gardener, we are the world, we are trees, we are turbulant seas, we are clouds, we are also clouds without water . . .we are branches, we are fruit . . .we are in every parable, depending on the story or context.  We are the lost son, we are the elder son, we are eagles, we are worms . . . we are the blind, the deaf, we are the seeing.  We are Peter, we are the Pharisees . . . the list is really endless.

I'm not sure I'm ready to wildly mix metaphors.

Jesus himself tells us that the field is the world.

Do you have other scripture that says the field in this parable is each of us individually, as you claim?

I don't want to get too sloppy here.

Quote9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience,...

This is evidence that God had already at that time written his laws on their hearts and minds.

This means that they already know what is right and what is wrong in God's eyes, because they have the internal witness of their own conscience, so to disregard it, from here on, is to be in open rebellion to God.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2008, 06:52:35 PM
Your right Nathan. I still don't understand it. So I leave it at this.
Anyway thanks for the help :thumbsup:

What I see is that God doesn't react the same way a Christian would who was deeply offended to find out someone they knew was having sexual relations outside of marriage.

If someone says that sex is not something important to consider then they are a fool.   The orphanages are a good example, STD's are another,  and Aids.   

I would imagine the context of the bible is keeping a community free of disease and making the best deterrant possibly available.  I think humans probably learned of the horrible deaths that can occur from untreated STD's which they likely had no treatment at all for unlike today. 

Those that critisize this aspect of punishment in the bible are only looking at it from a more modern standpoint.   Many STD's was a death sentence at one time and why let someone spread it around?

With that said,  the spiritual side of things is equally important, not to mention the emotional aspects far too many people are in denial of.

The point is, the knee jerk reactions of hearing about it needs to stop and take a more reasonable approach to information and education.

What has happened is the fight against the ridiculous stance religion has about sex is countered by a view that is equally as ridiculous and actually more dangerous emotionally and physically over all.

Both sides bear the scars,  neither side will admit it causes any.

Molly,
I know I'm going to sound like a broken record on all of this, but I really don't mind that.  What would be great is if we come to these forums and are set free from our own limited understanding and come to experience the true freedom Jesus brought to them, and brings to us.  

The key to seeing things spiritually is to receive them inwardly, take them to be addressing my personal nature within me..  To read things religiously, is to read them outwardly, taking them to mean "other people".  This is the differences between the old and the new.  The Word is the same, it's our perspective that has changed.

The thinking "what applies to them, applies to us because God's Word never changes" is really a bit boligerant.  John the Baptist didn't say "we" must decrease so He may increase . . .he said "I" . .not "my ministry", but ME . . .MY thinking, MY reasoning . . .MY logic . .he made it personal.

The Rock that Jesus' built his kingdom on was this very concept.  "Who do YOU say that I am?"  Note that when Peter answered that question, the answer was not one of the answers he'd already given.  The reason was because none of the other answers were from God . .they were all man's opinions of who Jesus was.  And Jesus didn't ask Peter who's side was he on . . .which of those opinions was he in agreement with . . .he asked him "Who do YOU say I am" . . .in other words "What do YOU see".  And what Peter saw was out of context from all the other answers . .which by the way, derived from Scripture also . .it's just that men made their own conclusions as to how Jesus lined up with what they knew Scriptures said.

Did it change Peter?  Spiritually, yes, it changed his spiritual nature, and as a result, Jesus changed his name.  But unfortunately, Peter was still an infant in this change and just as soon as Jesus acknowledged that now things were coming by way of revelation rather than religious reasoning (flesh and blood), Peter turns around and becomes an adversary in the very next breath he takes.

I get asked this a lot "What's your Scriptural base for what you're saying?"  It's the same as "Give us a sign to prove you are who you say you are . . ."

What I see and what I say is not intended to be "proved" by Scritpure.  Scripture has "led" me to where I am . . .and I still read the Bible . . .I still dig up meanings  of words . . .but I don't "rely" solely on the pages before me.  Even Jesus said to the Pharisees, "You search the Scriptures because you think they have all the answers . .and in them, they all point to me"  Jesus is not Scripture, he is spirit.  When you see him from the Scripture TAKE THE LEAP and walk in the spirit from there.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


I'm not saying this to condemn anyone.  I'm saying this so you can be set free from you're limited understanding of what every verse is saying.  I'm not saying my understanding is not limited either . . .I'm in the same boat as you . . .I'm not trying to raise myself above anyone on these forums . .what I'm trying to say is, when you let go of the literal word . . .there is a world of freedom there we never knew we had.

We have come to our Jubilee when we walk in the Spirit of Truth.  God is giving back to us everything the enemy has stolen.  The remarkable piece to this is, we're getting back things we never even knew we had because they'd been stolen so long ago.  So now it "appears" new . ."there is nothing new under the sun"  Yeah, I know that . . .but what about 'Behold, I will make all things new"?  It's the same "word" but now, it's been made "new" and with that newness comes . .not bondage or more walls . .but pure FREEDOM . .the kind that makes you want to stand up and shout, even though you understand only about 20% of what's being said . . .but that's the beauty of this . . .it's not my head that needs to get it . . .it's my HEART.

As to your caution . . .the river is only at it's best when  the bottom goes out from under you.

But I will add . . .read up on the 4 soils . . . I am the field.  And in another place, perhaps the one you're referring to . . .you're right . . .the field is the world and I am the seed . . . . . .There is so much rising up in me . .I don't know which channel in the river to take . . just be glad it's still "one" river.


For you Molly . . ..
Matthew 13
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now, what is the field here?  It says it in the very first verse.

Paul, just read your last comment . . .
I'm struggling with your take on other people's opinions.  You come off sounding judgmental and offensive.  Jesus himself was the most liberal Christian out there.  I think your take on the physical setbacks of careless intimacy is right on.  It's what I mentioned about Paul . . .we can do what ever we want . .but what we want may not always be benificial.

I can't make any sense of you comment "knee jerk reactions of hearing about it need to stop"

The last part of that sentence may be why we're seldom on the same page, you embrace education and information . . .I embrace revelation through relationship.

If people don't have any convictions about their sexual preferences . . . do we really think "we" can control them for them?  I don't think the reason for it was to keep people disease free . . .I think the disease comes from the evidence that they are not walking in truth in the first place . .but that's just me.

Here's one that ought to sting your ears . . .my flesh still wrestles with it . . . You can be gay and still pursue Christ.  (gasp!!!)  It's true!  You don't have to quit being gay when you come to Christ.  Just pursue Christ  . .for real . .and . . .you'll find his nature will change your desire to want to do things that are not of God's will in your life.  I can not change people from the inside out . . .and that's the only way this works. . from the inside out.

Yet we want to turn on these people and tell them they need to change their outside so God will accept their inside.  So . . .you tell a guy God hates gays . .and he doesn't want God to hate him . . .so he quits being gay . . .now what?  Did that make him righteous?  The season for nightwings to change has not yet come . . .but don't condemn him for that.  You can't expect people with out flashlights to see they way around the dark . . .nor would you expect people to become condemning toward them because they can't see.  If you have a light .  . . let them see with the light you have.  You do no one any good by hitting them over the head with your light.

Quote from: Nathanwe can do what ever we want . .but what we want may not always be benificial.

In what context is this meant?  Does it mean I can go on a spree robbing banks and shooting people and still be right with God?

But, believe it--there are people who think like this.  I saw a minister who had murdered and dismembered his wife, hid her body, told her children and everyone else that she had run away,  say from his jail cell smugly that he is forgiven by God.

I think to throw this idea around can be a very dangerous thing.

On a smaller level, what if we go to a priest every week and confess our sins, and then leave the confessional, and continue doing the same thing?  Millions of Christians live this way.  I can do what I want and go to confession and say a few hail mary's and then go out and continue doing what I want.

Is this what God is telling us?  No, he is telling us this--

1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I understand what you are saying that people have to change, become convicted, from the inside, but that won't happen unless they stay in Christ and stay in the word.   And, if the word is saying one thing--who am I to say it's saying something totally different?

I understand the spiritual component, but that doesn't mean I can make up my own religion--although people do it all the time.   So, I'm trying to stick as close to the meaning as I can--and test everything with scripture.

In this case, Jesus tells us the field is the world--so who am I to say otherwise?

Jesus spends a lot of time warning us against false shepherds.  He's not warning me against myself--he's warning me against those who would lead me astray.  And, we look out in the world and see them everywhere, leading people so far astray that God is no longer recognizable in what they teach.

Hi Nathan,

I am going to ignore your personal comments to me until a time you wish to be specific enough for me to be bothered with the thought that it might matter.

Quote
I can't make any sense of you comment "knee jerk reactions of hearing about it need to stop"

And I am always glad to clarify when asked.
Religious people all to often just react emotionally when they hear of instances of sexual immorality.  It is black and white, no thought of the circumstance, only their reaction of disgust and the condemnation of whoever is doing it.   This will never help solve the problem or lead people to see a loving God.

Quote
If people don't have any convictions about their sexual preferences . . . do we really think "we" can control them for them?  I don't think the reason for it was to keep people disease free . . .I think the disease comes from the evidence that they are not walking in truth in the first place . .but that's just me.

I have no illusions of controlling anything, but that is no excuse not to provide true information about what happens physically and emotionally.  Is that the "only" solution?  No, of course not,  but it is a part of it that should not be ignored.

Your point concerning disease  could be true, but doesn't explain people who engage in sex outside of marriage including homosexual activity that do not get diseases.   But, we cannot also point to those who do not in order to make it appear more safe than it actually is.

Quote

Here's one that ought to sting your ears . . .my flesh still wrestles with it . . . You can be gay and still pursue Christ.  (gasp!!!)  It's true!  You don't have to quit being gay when you come to Christ.  Just pursue Christ  . .for real . .and . . .you'll find his nature will change your desire to want to do things that are not of God's will in your life.  I can not change people from the inside out . . .and that's the only way this works. . from the inside out.

Why ought it sting my ears?   Your flesh should not wrestle with it, if you understand that you are indeed seeking christ while in sin yourself.  We all are, and pointing fingers at someone you think is worse is the product of the carnal mind denying ones own sin.
I say that not "towards" you but for the purpose of a reminder as we all fall into that trap.


I mainly want to turn people to the Love of God and  that love will save all mankind, period.   But, I also know that there is information and education about our physical world that is useful and will not detract or hinder the progress of spirituality and in many cases can help it.

I would like to apologize if some of my words today had a stinging sensation with them.  I've not been very diligent in staying on the high road in other conversations and it may have rubbed off with other things I wrote.  I shall try harder in the future to be more of a builder than a demo worker.

Paul, in this last conversation, it would appear we are seeing the same thing, or at least have the same desires.

Nathan,

I can testify to the truth of what you are saying-- when you are absolutely free to do what you want, yes sex included, that which controls you stops controlling you. By walking in love, I have gained victory over things I once thought I would never conquer.

Just this past weekend, I had a woman give me some vibe. She's going through a divorce, got a lot of problems, and for lack of a better word, easy. I know that I am at liberty, but I could NOT bring myself to take advantage of the situation though my flesh sincerely wanted to. It's so frustrating, dang it, but love is winning in my life. 

THAT is what a conqueror is!  You stop trying to control your nature, give it up . . .the hardest thing for my religious to do is, give up on trying to quit sinning.  Because that's all my mind wants to focus on . .what is right and what is wrong . .and the more I focus on that kind of thinking, the more it consumes me.  But when I turn it over to God . . . and pursue Christ. . .whitewings . . .you mentioned that the act of pursuing doesn't do anything . . .but there are things happening that my natural eyes and understanding can not see.

My pursuing Christ is changing my direction . .my attention is no longer on the shackles . .it's no longer about what I can and can not do.  I quit worrying about that.  Drinking does not send you to hell . . .smoking does not send you to hell . . .you controlled by them?  Let go of them. . .seriously, smoke away . . .  I can just see some of you guys as you read that.  You're not very agreeable to the idea. 

The one thing law did was, it proved you can't fulfill it.  You break one, you've broken them all.  So many comments on these threads are from those who "want" judgment to fall on everyone who doesn't live according to "their" standards.  Is that really Christ shining through?  Did Jesus really come and die for the whole world . .so that he could turn around and bring damnation on them?  Or did he do it to set us FREE from ourselves?

"But you just said if you have lust of any kind, that it's okay to give into it . . ."  What I said was . . .pursue Christ.  And in the process of your pursuit . . .stop trying to force your outside to conform until your inside has been transformed first.  When you do this, you'll find out just what rhellis experienced . . .when you let go and let God . . .you realize that the addictions you had are not as powerful over you as you thought.  But there first must be a "spiritual" transformation.  I'm in wonderment that so many have been led into UR and yet struggle so much in spiritual matters.

Jesus said "My yoke is EASY and my burden is LIGHT"  All who are WEARY come unto me and I will give you REST." 

That's not being mystic, that's just taking Jesus for his word.  I want rest just as much as the next guy . . .but I never found it by living according to the laws of judgment.  It wasn't until I threw myself with  abandon into the intimacy of God and things begin to change in how I read Scripture and in how I see others.  Rhellis, I'm excited for you.  How awesome that you've experienced victory in these areas that once ruled over you.  Don't let the waterless clouds of others take away from what God has given you.

Blessings.

Nathan,
I never denied there are things that defy logic. Love for example.
For the rest of what you wrote; most likely I'm the only one on this board that doesn't understand it. Sad but true.
I just see one big contradiction in your post.

If I'm a sinning atheist the advise it to become a Christian. When I try to be a Christian I can continue sinning. Or at least don't worry like it. Just like when I was an atheist. Then i didn't worry about it either. That's what many in my country call a 'paper Christian'.
Meaning officially you are a Christian but you can't even spell God so to speak.
If I quit worrying about it guess what happens.

I guess the answer with contain things like, carnal mind, spiritual thinking, etc
No matter how true you words are; you speak a foreign language....

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 25, 2008, 07:55:02 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2008, 06:52:35 PM
Your right Nathan. I still don't understand it. So I leave it at this.
Anyway thanks for the help :thumbsup:

What I see is that God doesn't react the same way a Christian would who was deeply offended to find out someone they knew was having sexual relations outside of marriage.

If someone says that sex is not something important to consider then they are a fool.   The orphanages are a good example, STD's are another,  and Aids.   

But that's when you practice unsafe sex.
BTW I'm not sure what you mean by having sex outside of marriage. Just all sex or cheating?
If cheating I would say stone him/her.

BTW I'm not claiming I do all those things myself. I'm just saying if there is an agreement between all parties involved then I have no problems with it. Neither am I in even the slightest way a monogamius relationship can't be perfect for many people.

Alas, speaking in tongues isn't just about your tongue, but it's what comes out of your heart.  It is the Spirit that is foreign to the carnal nature.

You are a perfect example of what I'm saying.  You have professed from the beginning that you choose to live by your reasoning . . . I'm again, not condemning you, I just think that you are a perfect example to all those religious people who read these posts.  Take note of what's been shared here . . .even a person who has openly professed his faith in his logic . . .can not understand the spiritual light.  

The mind of reason does not have the capacity to understand the spirit of God.  I didn't say this . . .Romans says it.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The law of God is not religious conformity . . .it is love.  And Love is as big as grace.  

When "I" force myself to quit smoking (for example) . .God didn't help me . .I did it.  But if I just pursue Christ . . .fill my head with spiritual truth, talk to him . .talk about him . .sing . .worship . .set my thoughts on things above . . . in the process of this, these addictions will run their course and come to an end.  You've read the testimony yourself . . .I'm not making this up.

You've been bound in religious thinking long enough, I'm just trying to help you find freedom that Scripture professes . . .don't hear much about freedom from the religious, they're to busy trying to follow their list of do's and don'ts.  It's not about "me" . .never was.  It's always about Christ and He is Spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY.

Quote
But that's when you practice unsafe sex.

I certainly do not intend to blow something out of proportion, my comments are in the context of promiscuity.  I realize that "safe sex" certainly should be used and it does lessen the risk, so keep in mind that I know that as you read the rest.

My comment about Christians knee jerking would be in any instance of sex with anyone when not married to them, homosexual activity and cheating.

I would say if we follow the logic of who cares about sex, cheating is irrevalent.  If we are going to dance around proper behavior,  then if someone is not sexually fulfilled in their marriage, what difference does it make if they seek to fulfill that?  And certainly if someone is just dating, there is no such thing as cheating because there is no real comittment yet, right?  And if they practice safely then that makes it even better.


All parties in agreement is not the point.  It is a society that wants this illusion built to mask over what their behavior is doing.

I am not going to judge someone who has whatever sex they want to have, more power to them, but lets at least keep our senses and know that safe sex in the context of promiscuity will not eliminate pregnancy or disease. It doesn't stop pregnancy in monogamous relationships.   Who came up with that nonsense?

Lessen the risk,  yes,   but lets imagine a society where  all this runs rampant (all parties consenting) without regaurd to practices mainly because there is no practices for safety because no one cares. Let alone the technology to lessen the risk of the physical consequenses doesn't exist yet. And we have not even got to the emotional damage that can occur even with all parties consenting.


The biblical context of this is to know that a society would be destroyed under those circumstances.  What is our modern context since we think we have this control over the consequenses?  The self worth of people are being destroyed by the millions.

I do not expect you to agree, the point is not to condemn people and judge them, it is to love them, so that they can see where that behavior takes their spirit.

Quote from: Nathan on August 26, 2008, 06:29:28 PM
THAT is what a conqueror is!  You stop trying to control your nature, give it up . . .the hardest thing for my religious to do is, give up on trying to quit sinning.  Because that's all my mind wants to focus on . .what is right and what is wrong . .and the more I focus on that kind of thinking, the more it consumes me.  But when I turn it over to God . . . and pursue Christ. . .whitewings . . .you mentioned that the act of pursuing doesn't do anything . . .but there are things happening that my natural eyes and understanding can not see.

My pursuing Christ is changing my direction . .my attention is no longer on the shackles . .it's no longer about what I can and can not do.  I quit worrying about that.  Drinking does not send you to hell . . .smoking does not send you to hell . . .you controlled by them?  Let go of them. . .seriously, smoke away . . .  I can just see some of you guys as you read that.  You're not very agreeable to the idea. 

The one thing law did was, it proved you can't fulfill it.  You break one, you've broken them all.  So many comments on these threads are from those who "want" judgment to fall on everyone who doesn't live according to "their" standards.  Is that really Christ shining through?  Did Jesus really come and die for the whole world . .so that he could turn around and bring damnation on them?  Or did he do it to set us FREE from ourselves?

"But you just said if you have lust of any kind, that it's okay to give into it . . ."  What I said was . . .pursue Christ.  And in the process of your pursuit . . .stop trying to force your outside to conform until your inside has been transformed first.  When you do this, you'll find out just what rhellis experienced . . .when you let go and let God . . .you realize that the addictions you had are not as powerful over you as you thought.  But there first must be a "spiritual" transformation.  I'm in wonderment that so many have been led into UR and yet struggle so much in spiritual matters.

Jesus said "My yoke is EASY and my burden is LIGHT"  All who are WEARY come unto me and I will give you REST." 

That's not being mystic, that's just taking Jesus for his word.  I want rest just as much as the next guy . . .but I never found it by living according to the laws of judgment.  It wasn't until I threw myself with  abandon into the intimacy of God and things begin to change in how I read Scripture and in how I see others.  Rhellis, I'm excited for you.  How awesome that you've experienced victory in these areas that once ruled over you.  Don't let the waterless clouds of others take away from what God has given you.

Blessings.

Focus on Christ, not on sin.

The greatest golfers know that when you are swinging into a water trap, you focus on the flag, not the water.

If you focus on the water, the body will move the ball towards the water with its swing.

For golfers it's a mental discipline, --for us, too.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 26, 2008, 07:20:09 PM
My comment about Christians knee jerking

I don't know that expression...

Quotethen if someone is not sexually fulfilled in their marriage, what difference does it make if they seek to fulfill that?

Trick question. If both see it as a solution to the 'problem' then there is not much of  a problem.
If there is no agreement then they should re-evaluate their marriage and see if they perhaps should split up.
(no cheating)

QuoteAnd certainly if someone is just dating, there is no such thing as cheating because there is no real comittment yet, right?

Also depends on the the mutual agreements. For me dating can be a very real commitment. For me agreements are a very important aspect of life. I, for example, hate it when people show up late for an appointment.

QuoteI am not going to judge someone who has whatever sex they want to have, more power to them, but lets at least keep our senses and know that safe sex in the context of promiscuity will not eliminate pregnancy or disease. It doesn't stop pregnancy in monogamous relationships.   Who came up with that nonsense?

About the diseases...well nothing is without danger. So don't moan if things go wrong.
For those practicing such free relationships abortion is no issue.

QuoteThe biblical context of this is to know that a society would be destroyed under those circumstances.  What is our modern context since we think we have this control over the consequenses?  The self worth of people are being destroyed by the millions.

I don't have stats on that.... But for many sex is a consumer article. Just as obvious as going to the movies.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying you can't project your own self worth in such a situation on theirs.
Just because they have a completly diffrent mental makeup.

QuoteI do not expect you to agree, the point is not to condemn people and judge them, it is to love them, so that they can see where that behavior takes their spirit.

I talk freely about sex. (therefore most inhere probably think I have 5 wives) Never had problems with it. And as said it's not that I do all those things. You won't see me mountainclimbing. But that doesn't mean I'm going to forbid mountainclimbers their passion because once in a while they get accidents. I don't smoke. It stinks and spoils you taste. But who am I to forbid a smoker their plesure? Same with sex. I'm not homosexual. Actually it makes me shiver. But who am I to deny their happyness.
BTW gay marriages have a higher succesrate than hetrosexual marriages. Lesbian marriges have the lowest succesrate.
Another proof women cause most of the trouble. Whoops  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2008, 08:08:28 PM
Trick question. If both see it as a solution to the 'problem' then there is not much of  a problem.
If there is no agreement then they should re-evaluate their marriage and see if they perhaps should split up.
(no cheating)

Why?   What if the sexual fulfillment is separate from the comfort that a companion brings?  I mean isn't that how the flesh rationalizes this stuff?   I sure do not see anyhting of the spirit along these lines, correct me if you see it.

Quote
Also depends on the the mutual agreements. For me dating can be a very real commitment. For me agreements are a very important aspect of life. I, for example, hate it when people show up late for an appointment.

But then we are expecting others to live like us, so agreements are irrevalent under this mindset of live and let live.   An agreement can be broken because the circumstances can be different than when the agreement was made.  Who are we to judge?

Quote
About the diseases...well nothing is without danger. So don't moan if things go wrong.
For those practicing such free relationships abortion is no issue.

But people do moan while they pretend to be oblivious about it.

Quote
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying you can't project your own self worth in such a situation on theirs.
Just because they have a completly diffrent mental makeup.

Thats just a denial that sex actually can be some commodity no different than going to the movies.   It can't and it is not about judging it right or wrong from my perspective, it is seeing that people know less and less what love is as behavior becomes less and less important.  Just because no one acknowledges it or admits it doesn't mean anything.


My point is not necessarily to stand on a soap box expecting others to act a certain way.  This forum post is certainly not about preaching out to the world that everyone had better straighten up and try to convince people of things that aren't going to listen that way.

It is explaining real aspects of behavior so when we encounter someone needing help understanding things in their life we can possibly help them understand that if they are promiscuous  (EVEN if it is only in their thoughts) it may very well be a factor in the trouble they have.

I once encountered a man who believed his wife did not find him sexual attractive, he started taking an interest in another woman,  this man and this woman never engaged in any physical activity and spoke to one another as friends through the whole course of this.   The mans emotions went haywire and he started having vivid fantasies of having sex with her,  this actually caused some terrible emotional trouble for the man. He then started having vivid dreams beyond his direct control of hoping his wife would die so then he could be free to explore his desires physically.  The dreams weren;t particularly disturbing to him because his fantasies were ruling his emotions.   While he felt that maybe the fantasies were harmless the last thing he thought could happen was a desire that his wife would die.  It took a long time for him to get over this, not only did he think he loved his woman friend, he was haunted by the dreams he had about his wife.

If we do not define those real aspects of human behavior, then who can help who with anything if its just anything goes?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 26, 2008, 08:54:40 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2008, 08:08:28 PM
Trick question. If both see it as a solution to the 'problem' then there is not much of  a problem.
If there is no agreement then they should re-evaluate their marriage and see if they perhaps should split up.
(no cheating)

Why?   What if the sexual fulfillment is separate from the comfort that a companion brings?  I mean isn't that how the flesh rationalizes this stuff?   I sure do not see anyhting of the spirit along these lines, correct me if you see it.

I'm not sure I understand your question. But let me say I'm in no way meaning sex is the only thing  a relation is about.
But if things go sexually wrong and it starts make the married couple unhappy in a unsolveble way splitting up may be one of the solutions.

Quote

Quote
Also depends on the the mutual agreements. For me dating can be a very real commitment. For me agreements are a very important aspect of life. I, for example, hate it when people show up late for an appointment.

But then we are expecting others to live like us, so agreements are irrevalent under this mindset of live and let live.   An agreement can be broken because the circumstances can be different than when the agreement was made.  Who are we to judge?

I can best explain this with an example.
If I meet new friends and they don't keep themselfs to agreements they very soon will be ex-friends.
I don't force my views on anyone. But I won't hangout with those who don't hold roughtly the same values as I do.
Live and let live is only if 'the others' don't bother me with it.

Quote

Quote
About the diseases...well nothing is without danger. So don't moan if things go wrong.
For those practicing such free relationships abortion is no issue.

But people do moan while they pretend to be oblivious about it.

You are right about that Paul. Translated from Dutch "Repentance comes after sin."
First of all I'm not promoting anything here.
Secondly I'm not saying it's perfect or even near perfect.
I'm just saying it's a choice.

Quote

Quote
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying you can't project your own self worth in such a situation on theirs.
Just because they have a completly diffrent mental makeup.

Thats just a denial that sex actually can be some commodity no different than going to the movies.   It can't and it is not about judging it right or wrong from my perspective, it is seeing that people know less and less what love is as behavior becomes less and less important.  Just because no one acknowledges it or admits it doesn't mean anything.

It's a bit unfair to let me speak for whole humanity. I can't.
The only thing I can say that some people can feel real love and still are sexual free/immoral/deranged (whatever term you like)
For some sex is extremely connected with love. For others it's a seperate entity. But even for those love+sex often exceeds the sum of the parts.
People like to put others in boxes. I never forget a female college once came to me and said: "Hey, Tony. I was walking in the park and say a fully dressed up Metal couple that seemed to be extremely in love with their baby."
Understand what I said?

QuoteMy point is not necessarily to stand on a soap box expecting others to act a certain way.  This forum post is certainly not about preaching out to the world that everyone had better straighten up and try to convince people of things that aren't going to listen that way.

Paul, I do not see it as preaching. I also see a lot of truth in your words. I'm also very sure you are very happy in your relationship the way you have it. The only thing I say 6 billion people. 6 billion idea's. Putting people in boxes is one of the greater evils of humanity. To name one racism.

QuoteIt is explaining real aspects of behavior so when we encounter someone needing help understanding things in their life we can possibly help them understand that if they are promiscuous  (EVEN if it is only in their thoughts) it may very well be a factor in the trouble they have.

Sure when helping people making suggestions surely is a part of the helping process (is that is what you mean)

QuoteI once encountered a man who believed his wife did not find him sexual attractive, he started taking an interest in another woman,  this man and this woman never engaged in any physical activity and spoke to one another as friends through the whole course of this.   The mans emotions went haywire and he started having vivid fantasies of having sex with her,  this actually caused some terrible emotional trouble for the man. He then started having vivid dreams beyond his direct control of hoping his wife would die so then he could be free to explore his desires physically.  The dreams weren;t particularly disturbing to him because his fantasies were ruling his emotions.   While he felt that maybe the fantasies were harmless the last thing he thought could happen was a desire that his wife would die.  It took a long time for him to get over this, not only did he think he loved his woman friend, he was haunted by the dreams he had about his wife.

I can't and won't judge someone who lives 10000 miles from me. So my reply is just a general one.
I fairly often read about women who didn't have 1 single orgasm in their 30 year marriage. A 'funny' example of such a couple was a man and wife that visited a marriage counciler. The man was depressed because it suffered from impotence.
So the doctor asked. Can you get it hard if you do such and such? The man answered that not my problem. I can't just not get my wife to get an orgasm. Long story short. The couple only 'used' one position. The man way humping her as a wild bull for an hour without taking a breath. The real problem was they never ever talked about sex.
Once again without having or wanting the background info of your friend I somehow feel it's connected to my little story.
And so nothing to do with sex but severe lack of communication. A relationship is about sharing your complete mind.
And that's not only about what color socks you like...

QuoteIf we do not define those real aspects of human behavior, then who can help who with anything if its just anything goes?

I hope from reading my above answers you now understand I never wrote, or meant, that everything goes.
Honesty, agreements, commitment are very important.
Keep in mind English is my second language and I don't master the finesses of it. So I'm well aware I'm sounding like a blunt axe  :laughing7:

Take care Paul :thumbsup:

Two words come to mind- wisdom and love.

Wisdom is just educated self-love. I am free to eat whatever, but I try to maintain a healthy, balanced diet because I love myself and I have at least some knowledge of what is good for me.

I walk in wisdom for myself and love for others-- these two forces are the strongest means of good behavior. And I am free.

Hi white wings,

I apologize for reading into your comments further than what was true.

I can also see where my comments may tend to seek to judge people with generalizations.  But that is not what I intended to do.

Quote
Sure when helping people making suggestions surely is a part of the helping process (is that is what you mean)

This is about the best way to put the whole idea of where I was coming from. 

Religion seeks to cleanse a society through law.  I think they have the idea that pharasees only existed 2000 years ago.  :laughing7:

I do not mean to point out behavioral issues to judge people. It appears that way because in the midst of saying a certain behavior is not something we should get all bent out of shape there are real people struggling with consequenses of that behavior.   I know that some do not, or at least maybe see that in their life it doesn't matter so much so they just keep on.  But I also do not like to see people overlooked because it is thought that emotional problems come from the attempt at restriction of behavior in the first place.

whitewings says:
I don't force my views on anyone. But I won't hangout with those who don't hold roughtly the same values as I do.
Live and let live is only if 'the others' don't bother me with it.
Are we to love or even just to tolerate only those who agree with us?  Jesus says:  "Love your enemies that you may be children of your Father Who is in heaven."  I'll admit that because of my desire for more of God and a greater understanding of His word I tend to end up alone without wanting to.  It's not a matter of compromise to get along with them.  I'm not interested.  When someone is in graduate school it does some really wrong things to make them hang out in kindergarten.  Of course, then you have to explain that there's nothing wrong with kids.  Love doesn't mean we have to adopt other people's views or behavior.  But when one has something really good it can sometimes not be welcomed by people who never give themselves an opportunity to even find out about it if at first exposure it seems to interfere with the temporary pleasures they are committed to pursuing.

whitewings says:
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying you can't project your own self worth in such a situation on theirs.
Just because they have a completly diffrent mental makeup.
You can grow up to the point you know the real car is more valuable than the toy car.  The little kid doesn't see it that way.  Nothing wrong with his playing.  I can't get much fellowship with him about my real car.  He can't relate to me.  While I can relate to him, for both of our well being it better not be for too long of a time though.  There are real values that the immature don't recognize.  If I gave you a name and address of a Doctor that was one of the few who would do radical surgeries on terminal cancer patients ordinary Oncologists and Surgeons wouldn't touch, just send home to die, you might find it interesting, that it was probably legitimate and of value; but, because you are busy working with other matters, it would get lost in a pile of junk mail somewhere, something you don't need.  The moment you get cancer everything changes.  I know things about Jesus like that.  He can put explanations of His secrets out in plain view for everyone to see without any worry that the wrong people will recognize and take unfair advatage with them.

whitewings says:
The only thing I can say that some people can feel real love and still are sexual free/immoral/deranged (whatever term you like)
For some sex is extremely connected with love. For others it's a seperate entity. But even for those love+sex often exceeds the sum of the parts.
People like to put others in boxes.
I was a "hippie" in Haight-Ashbury of San Francisco and hung out in Berekely in the late sixties.  "Free love" was the word.  Other than sex, I found almost no love.  I thought this was true.  Now I know it is because God has given me someone who loves me.  Sure we shouldn't discourage what little flicker of love people may have.  Religious people, Christians, drove me away.  Yet I went along with them, believing what they were saying about God, until they found out I just didn't have anything of my own.  I had nowhere that I belonged.  They didn't see anything worth it in me to take me up and help me find my way in life.  Scripture speaks of, "purifying your love by obedience to the truth."  Love, specially new love, may not be pure; but, you wouldn't throw out a lump of gold just because it had gravel in it, would you?

To give up immorality for what, marriage?  That's supposed to be a sacrifice?  What a blessing you aren't gay and sex becomes completely forbidden in order to walk pleasing to God.  If you don't experience the gift of the Holy Spirit it seems you will not be able to "take up your cross, deny yourself and follow Jesus.  You can't enter the next room until you leave the one you're in.  Even though you have natural advantages that make it so much easier for you to go God's way, you can't until the great value of pleasing the Holy Spirit is recognized by you.  People don't die for what they know to be a lie.  Without the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in my life I wouldn't know what I need to know to abandon Adam and his world and everything blessed there.  Without the rewards of His increasing freedom and approval as I come out and the gift of his grace, an active working of God in me causing me to enter this other dimension called GOD, I would stay where I was.

Commonly, people's response when you shine a light on the box they're in, is, "Don't put me in your box man!"

Paul,

Never apologize for honesty and/or a genuine opinion. Besides I'm not free from labeling people either.
"Holier than you are" attitude.
So apologies not accepted. Just because there is nothing to accept apologies for!

I'm sure religious people and their laws try to do very well. But like with anything; drive it to the extreme and it goes wrong.
Kapitalism is ok. Communism has is flair too I think. But when driven to the extreme.... Then they look pretty much the same. On one side you have the wealth witch more money than they can burn. On the other side the vast majority living a slaves.
So perhaps communism, kapitalism and Christianity are (near) perfect systems. It's just that humans are to flawed to use the systems. Focussing on Christianity now. Look at the pope/vatican. One of the (self proclaimed) leaders of Christianity. Grab a historybook and you see the vatican is drowning in blood. I bet when Jesus is in charge the same system won't turn into a mess. (btw this is not just about catholics)
"One shoe fits all?" Don't think so.
"Shot-gun wedding" No real love.
That said; I really think Christianity or just some of its value's/laws can be very beneficial for people.
Some people can't walk trough life alone. They need some sort of guide to make themselfs feel safe.

Hi Reformer,

"Are we to love or even just to tolerate only those who agree with us?"
I was just speaking of my own faulty me. Not for the whole world.
But a little later you wrote you are not interested in those who aren't on the same path to God.
Isn't that the same what I wrote? Different reasons; same result.


About your real/toy car example. All I can say I agree 100% with it. Except for the Jesus part because I never experienced Him.


"Other than sex, I found almost no love."
But the majority of seeking free sex aren't looking for love or commitment. You don't even need to know each others name to have good sex.
Such a concept will sound insane to many. But not to those involved in it. It even adds to their excitement.


For your 2nd last paragraph I have no answer. I never experienced the HS. Or the deeper feeling connected to such an experience.
So I can try to imagine what you talk about. I think I can (a little). But not enough to base any arguments either positive or negative on it.

Commonly, people's response when you shine a light on the box they're in, is, "Don't put me in your box man!"
I think that's (partly) where the Jesus splinter and wooden beam is all about.
People think they are the only ones not in a box, or the only ones in a perfect box.

Quote from: rhellis on August 26, 2008, 08:22:23 AM

Just this past weekend, I had a woman give me some vibe. She's going through a divorce, got a lot of problems, and for lack of a better word, easy. I know that I am at liberty, but I could NOT bring myself to take advantage of the situation though my flesh sincerely wanted to. It's so frustrating, dang it, but love is winning in my life. 

Rhett,

   I can see how one's flesh wants to be gratified.  Perhaps this is the reason that I myself have not so much as had a woman in my life let alone being married.  I suppose I could find any loose woman and have an affair.  However, I would want more from realtionship than merely "getting a piece".

   You showed a lot of strength in your situation.  Perhaps me on the other hand might not have been as strong, which explains why I don't seem to have those kinds of opportunities, as it's written: "God will not allow one to be tempted beyond his/her ability to resist".

Chuck