The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[laren]

Here's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?

It's for growing faith to perfection--



1From James, a servant of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ.
   Greetings to the twelve tribes scattered all over the world.

2My friends, be glad, even if you have a lot of trouble. 3You know that you learn to endure by having your faith tested. 4But you must learn to endure everything, so that you will be completely mature and not lacking in anything.

--James 1

yeah, i see that.  Would you Molly call "that fire that grows faith to perfection the lake of fire/second death??" 

[Nathan]

It still feels like many are looking at this outwardly rather than inwardly.  Tribulation is what we all go through . .Jesus said himself in this "world" you will have trials and tribulation . .but . .be of good cheer I have overcome the world.  So, even though I go through tribulation, whether or not I succeed in this tribulation, Christ has already over come it . . .we tend to look at it as "I gain my salvation according to overcoming my tribulation."  What Jesus is saying to me here is, my tribulation has already been overcome by him . . .not by me.  

I don't think the tribulation actually is the same as the LOF due to the fact that tribulation's purpose is different than the LOF.  Tribulation is a tool used to strengthen us in Christ.  To build our faith, trust, even relationship.  Tribulation is my natural experiences on this earth.

The lake of fire on the other hand, is not to build up or give me character, it's to purify, to purge the nature in me that can not survive spiritually.  It's not a natural place, it's a spiritual place . .and not really even a "place" but more like a realm as well.  The thing about the lake of fire ... is that those who have come into the grace of God through faith in Christ . . .will not enter into it because the cross has already done what the lake of fire does.

Did Jesus go through the lake of fire?  Dude . . .Jesus IS the lake of fire!  We, in our carnal minds, see it as a place . . .it's not a place, it's a realm, a dimension . . .and a person.  The spirit realm is Christ . . .when you are in the Spirit, you are in Christ.  You can be saved and still be spiritually blind . . .this wide gate versus narrow gate . . . it's not about going to hell . .it's about entering into the kingdom NOW!  It's reproducing after our own kind here . . .which is not I, but Christ in me . . we're to become reproductive after Christ.

Many Christians enter through the wide gate . .yes their still Christians . .and you've talked with many of them, they are comfortable where they are, they don't want to get into the meat of truth, they're very happy living on milk.  The destruction you read in Scripture is not the distruction of people . .it's the destruction of MY MIND . .that's why we need to lay our traditional studying of Scripture down and let it be transformed with the rest of us.  Reading Scripture spiritually is simply taking it internal . . .instead of seeing "people" going through the wide gate, it's my vain thoughts, my carnality, my fleshly nature that goes through the wide gate . . .and my spirit is what's called into the narrow gate . .but it's easier to cater to the flesh than take captive those thoughts by the Spirit.

It's not what your mind understands . .it's what your spirit sees.  Walk in the spirit, it doesn't know how to read, it only hears the voice and sees the sound.  There is a sound beneath the passages we quote that only the spirit can hear . . .you see it all around you in the natural . .there are so many sounds your natural ears can't hear . . .even dogs can hear sounds we can't here . . .that should be humbling in and of itself.

Even Balaam's donkey could see things this great prophet riding him couldn't see . . .we can't trust what our eyes tell us, we need to let go of that stuff and listen for the sound of what Scripture is saying . . .it's beneath the noise of doctrine.

Making any sense?

[Taffy]

Here's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?



I think what some here are saying, is that to come to faith, is through fire; and that fire is the lake of fire/second death.   

For me we in the flesh are drawn to repent- CHANGE(Rom 2:4\Hbr 6:1)....He is the fire which renews the HEAVENS( mind) and the EARTH( body)..



Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


Mat 3:12  Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ( is that not our FLESH)

The unbelieving Laren for mine are those Under LAW, ...those who believest NOT, be them Under the law or without.

[laren]

. . .instead of seeing "people" going through the wide gate, it's my vain thoughts, my carnality, my fleshly nature that goes through the wide gate . . .and my spirit is what's called into the narrow gate . .but it's easier to cater to the flesh than take captive those thoughts by the Spirit.

Making any sense?

I understand what you are saying, and do look inward, but; for me;

as i've stated before; I don't believe the new tesatment writers were talking/writing of an "inward" application.  Paul was not saying my flesh part will go through the LOF, and the spirit part of me given by God won't.  He was literally (which had a huge spiritual application (literal doesn't mean it's not spiriutal imo) talking about Old Covenant law zealot jews who were not willing to give up their mindset of "law" to be righteous; and they would see there house come crashing down.

God through Christ (the head and body=Jesus and first fruits saints) were the means by which this happened.  Through the church's mercy, they (the OC law mindset people) would be given mercy too.  What did the receivng of them mean?  LIFE from the dead. 

Life from the dead means to me, God completed reconciliation. 

What does that mean now, "working out what is already completed".

Again, I see your application; and actually agree with it now, but I personally don't see how this can apply today if one is still in the mindset of we are living now in the same age as the first century church. 

That is again why I lean toward a preterist view.  I believe God "literally" (which has huge spiriutal application) worked out his plan of redemption with "HIS people" (Israel under law).  The second coming occurred, destruction came upon them.  The spiritual application is huge for us NOW.

[laren]

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


Mat 3:12  Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ( is that not our FLESH)

But, I don't think that was what Paul, John, Peter etc. were saying.  They imo, were seeing a destruction coming upon those in the flesh (those who were not willing to repent).  Paul was imo, was referring to those under law, stuck in the old mindest as "the flesh". 

Where I disagree with you is that you still see the old covenant as in place, using this verse

Joh 2:10  And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

I don't believe the "now" in that verse is the same as "now" today.  The old covenant world was destroyed imo during the first century.  God made it known to "His people" that he was no longer in covenant with man via law, but now the world was reconciled through Jesus. 


But if we "now" continue to have a false/ignorant "mindset" of being under law; the inward/spiritual application is very much along the lines of what you have outlined.

Hope I make sense Graham.


blessings friend

Laren

[Molly]

It's not what your mind understands . .it's what your spirit sees.  Walk in the spirit, it doesn't know how to read, it only hears the voice and sees the sound.  There is a sound beneath the passages we quote that only the spirit can hear . . .you see it all around you in the natural . .there are so many sounds your natural ears can't hear . . .even dogs can hear sounds we can't here . . .that should be humbling in and of itself.

Even Balaam's donkey could see things this great prophet riding him couldn't see . . .we can't trust what our eyes tell us, we need to let go of that stuff and listen for the sound of what Scripture is saying . . .it's beneath the noise of doctrine.

Making any sense?

Yes, sound is vibration.  God spoke the world into existence.  He upholds all things by the word of his power.

I like the way you put this--a sound that only the spirit can hear--

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

[Molly]

The old covenant world was destroyed imo during the first century.  God made it known to "His people" that he was no longer in covenant with man via law, but now the world was reconciled through Jesus. 


But if we "now" continue to have a false/ignorant "mindset" of being under law; the inward/spiritual application is very much along the lines of what you have outlined.

Paul said that which is obsolete will soon pass away.  And, it did.

Yet, there are still Christians who demand an eye for an eye (or worse, 10,000 eyes for an eye,) and think that is right because it is in the Bible.  It's like they never heard Jesus say,--


43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

--Mat 5

[Taffy]

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


Mat 3:12  Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ( is that not our FLESH)

But, I don't think that was what Paul, John, Peter etc. were saying.  They imo, were seeing a destruction coming upon those in the flesh (those who were not willing to repent).  Paul was imo, was referring to those under law, stuck in the old mindest as "the flesh". 

Where I disagree with you is that you still see the old covenant as in place, using this verse

Joh 2:10  And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

I don't believe the "now" in that verse is the same as "now" today.  The old covenant world was destroyed imo during the first century.  God made it known to "His people" that he was no longer in covenant with man via law, but now the world was reconciled through Jesus. 


But if we "now" continue to have a false/ignorant "mindset" of being under law; the inward/spiritual application is very much along the lines of what you have outlined.

Hope I make sense Graham.


blessings friend

Laren

I agree ont he first paragraph Laren, I think we touch on this a few weeks back , the the literal Destruction of the Temple 70AD etc...and I agree, but still shows a spirtual Understanding.


Im Not sure what ya mean By" I see the Old C still In Place"?...Both are to be Kept Laren as mentioned in an earlier post, where the two wines are presereved,, BUT LIFE is Truly found ONLY in the NEW,.CHRIST OUR VICTORY AND VICTORY FOR all in their appointed time....but ya cant be In both at the SAME TIME.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I Must admit bro, im not 100% sure what ya getting at...

I see the law very much for those Under the LAW , that God finds Them Guilty...which is everyone bar those in HIM,..

be now , then and to come....

again Im not sure what you think we are disagreeing on bro... :dontknow:

[Craig]

If you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

Craig, that whole post was beautiful.  You are describing the Melchizedek priesthood.  Well, you might not agree with me lol.  But, to me, that's what it is.

That priesthood, too, will be refined and purified as silver [by fire]--I'm thinking in this life--so that they will stand when he appears.

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

--Malachi 3

but there is a difference is there not between refiners fire, and destructive fire??

I believe there is.

I also think it would be intresting to study what a "priest/priesthood" does.  What is their function? 

refiner's fire, imo; is by grace through Faith

and destructive fire is based on "not believing", and having to perish.

whoseover believes on him shall not perish (go through LOF imo)

Right Laren. That is how Scripture describes it.

[laren]

i'll try to get back to ya taffy, got a busy day ahead.

[Craig]

so do you see this training/becoming priests as the lake of fire??

Well, Craig doesn't want to call it the lake of fire--he is saying these priests will be the lake of fire I think, or at least be part of it.

But, someone earlier called it fiery trials--the trying of our faith--that is part of the refining process--like what someone called a spiritual stairmaster.  It is a type of fire, for sure.  James tells us to count it all joy when we experience this.

Because it isn't the Lake of Fire. The coal that the priest puts to his lips, does not destroy anything, it ceremoniously purifies their lips. But the fire in which the priest throws the leper's house and clothing literally destroys everything and the leper is kicked out of the city to live outside the walls. As I said earlier in this thread, people do not know the difference between clean, unclean, ceremoniously clean and ceremoniously unclean. One is refining fire, the others is destructive fire. Whether the fire is from the same source does not matter, one purifies through faith and the other purifies through destruction.

As Laren says,

one leaves one clothed, not ashamed

That is correct. One fire which is by faith purifies and one arrives into the Kingdom fully clothed having their robes washed white in the blood of Christ.

one leaves one naked/shamed

The other purifies by destruction and that one arrives naked and beaten and outside the walls waiting for help from the ones inside the city.

Why people cannot see how obvious this pattern is in Scripture, beats me, short of condemning them for following after their imagination they still have not been able to demonstrate anything contrary to what laren and myself have presented.

[Molly]

but there is a difference is there not between refiners fire, and destructive fire??

I believe there is.

I also think it would be intresting to study what a "priest/priesthood" does.  What is their function?  

refiner's fire, imo; is by grace through Faith

and destructive fire is based on "not believing", and having to perish.

whoseover believes on him shall not perish (go through LOF imo)

Right Laren. That is how Scripture describes it.  

Just savoring a brief moment of agreement.   :icon_king:

[Craig]

I read through every 'objection', and even the inward/outward appeal and it still does not prove the Lake of Fire is in this life. This shows me a lack of knowledge concerning the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:16-19, 29-34
16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
   "Let us eat and drink,
      for tomorrow we die."[d] 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

Paul knew there was something after this life, regardless of how much he spoke of the inner man growing. The rewards of that innerman growing come at the end of the natural life in the resurrection of the dead. Otherwise as Paul said, why do we endanger ourselves every hour, why do we die every day (not taking any personal credit or gain), and if he fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what has he gained? If the dead are not raised, might as well live as I said because it doesn't matter both the righteous by faith and the wicked in unbelief share the same destiny.

I bet that those who believe in Lake of Fire is this life, do not believe in a literal (abeit spiritual) bodily resurrection of the dead, knowing that the natural must come first and then the spiritual. Everything comes back to the basic foundations of the faith, there are six of them and if one is different than another, the conclusions are different completely.

[Taffy]

Whether the fire is from the same source does not matter, one purifies through faith and the other purifies through destruction.

I totally agree ,I was raised on the silver being REFINED,..the dross removed...,its a fact that the refiner knows exactly the right time its purified, because apparently ,HE SEES his OWN reflection while looking into it..( face to Face)....REFINED.

But what is Refined and what Is Destroyed Craig?

[Molly]

So--

The refiner's fire versus the lake of fire looks like this?

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

[Craig]

So--

The refiner's fire versus the lake of fire looks like this?

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Yes. This is repeated throughout all Scripture from the Law, Prophets and the Psalms to the words of Jesus and the disciples. There is a difficult way which results in reward in the Kingdom, and there is the easy way which results in loss in the Kingdom. You don't need to take the easy way in order to find the difficult way. In fact, most people don't know they are on the easy path, thinking that the odd pebble on the pavement get's into their shoes and it is a very long road, means it was the difficult path. Not realizing that the ones on the difficult path, are cutting through jungles, climbing mountains, crossing rivers, and the path is just as very long. Yes, everyone heard the saying, "Work smarter not harder." but the smart one would have figured out that the easy path leads to destruction.

[Craig]

Whether the fire is from the same source does not matter, one purifies through faith and the other purifies through destruction.

I totally agree ,I was raised on the silver being REFINED,..the dross removed...,its a fact that the refiner knows exactly the right time its purified, because apparently ,HE SEES his OWN reflection while looking into it..( face to Face)....REFINED.

But what is Refined and what Is Destroyed Craig?

You keep thinking the dross is what goes into the Lake of Fire versus the silver which is being refined. Though it is technically correct, it is not at all how it is. The silver is not the dross that is being removed as part of the Refining Fire, it is not burned by fire, but the dross is.

Jeremiah 6:27-30
"I have made you a tester of metals and my people the ore, that you may observe and test their ways.
They are all hardened rebels, going about to slander. They are bronze and iron; they all act corruptly.
The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out.
They are called rejected silver, because the LORD has rejected them."

Not everyone is refined like silver, because they made of iron and bronze.

Ezekiel 22:18
Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver.

Not everyone is refined like silver, because they are made of copper tin, iron and left inside the furnace.

Isaiah 48:8-11
You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ear has not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth.
For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off.
See, I have refined you, though not as silver;  I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.

Once again, those who are treacherous and rebellious go through not Refining Fire, even though it is the same Fire they are put into the Furnace!
So the question is, what makes you silver and what makes you iron, bronze, copper, tin and left inside the furnace?

Next question is, what purpose does silver have? Well the ancients used silver to heal burns and it is still happening today.

[Taffy]

Whether the fire is from the same source does not matter, one purifies through faith and the other purifies through destruction.

I totally agree ,I was raised on the silver being REFINED,..the dross removed...,its a fact that the refiner knows exactly the right time its purified, because apparently ,HE SEES his OWN reflection while looking into it..( face to Face)....REFINED.

But what is Refined and what Is Destroyed Craig?

You keep thinking the dross is what goes into the Lake of Fire versus the silver which is being refined. That is not at all how it is. Whether the silver is being refined and the dross removed, is still part of the Refining Fire and at no time is part of the Lake of Fire.

Jeremiah 6:27-30
"I have made you a tester of metals and my people the ore, that you may observe and test their ways.
They are all hardened rebels, going about to slander. They are bronze and iron; they all act corruptly.
The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out.
They are called rejected silver, because the LORD has rejected them."

Not everyone is refined like silver, because they made of iron and bronze.

Isaiah 48:8-11
You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ear has not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth.
For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off.
See, I have refined you, though not as silver;  I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.

Once again, those who are treacherous and rebellious go through not Refining Fire, but a Furnace of Affliction...aka the Lake of Fire. Why? Because God cannot be defamed and He will not yield His glory to another.

So the question is, what makes you silver and what makes you iron and bronze?

Silver Is his Blood Craig, Tis His Blood Cleanses Purifies.....As ya Know the IRON and Brass , is for mine, relates to the carnality of Man..our flesh....

so maybe the question is...what Does His Blood purfify us of....well thats Sin isnt It?...so what SINS?...THE SPIRIT?

yes Craig the Dross is Likened to the tin, copper...isnt it...the scum removed from the Surface...
again the Same question ,as I know the properties Of Silver....

Ezekiel 22:18

Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver.

whats the Dross which Is removed\BURNT?.. and what gets burnt in the FURNACE, aka lake of fire?...

could you answer these before we move on to the qualities of silver Bro

[Molly]

so maybe the question is...what Does His Blood purfify us of....well thats Sin isnt It?...so what SINS?...THE SPIRIT?

Do you think the spirit [of man] can't sin?


12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

--Eph 6

[Taffy]

He who WALKS in the SPIRIT...absoulutley NOT.

you may find the scripture you quoted to do with the SAME battle called the Covenants...., but there again Molly you may NOT

[laren]

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


Mat 3:12  Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ( is that not our FLESH)

But, I don't think that was what Paul, John, Peter etc. were saying.  They imo, were seeing a destruction coming upon those in the flesh (those who were not willing to repent).  Paul was imo, was referring to those under law, stuck in the old mindest as "the flesh". 

Where I disagree with you is that you still see the old covenant as in place, using this verse

Joh 2:10  And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

I don't believe the "now" in that verse is the same as "now" today.  The old covenant world was destroyed imo during the first century.  God made it known to "His people" that he was no longer in covenant with man via law, but now the world was reconciled through Jesus. 


But if we "now" continue to have a false/ignorant "mindset" of being under law; the inward/spiritual application is very much along the lines of what you have outlined.

Hope I make sense Graham.


blessings friend

Laren

I agree ont he first paragraph Laren, I think we touch on this a few weeks back , the the literal Destruction of the Temple 70AD etc...and I agree, but still shows a spirtual Understanding.


Im Not sure what ya mean By" I see the Old C still In Place"?...Both are to be Kept Laren as mentioned in an earlier post, where the two wines are presereved,, BUT LIFE is Truly found ONLY in the NEW,.CHRIST OUR VICTORY AND VICTORY FOR all in their appointed time....but ya cant be In both at the SAME TIME.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I Must admit bro, im not 100% sure what ya getting at...

I see the law very much for those Under the LAW , that God finds Them Guilty...which is everyone bar those in HIM,..

be now , then and to come....

again Im not sure what you think we are disagreeing on bro... :dontknow:

Ok Taffy,

I got a few minutes. 

the old covenant imo,is an agreement between God and man.  God made the agreement.

Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11  And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12  For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The old was ready to vanish away.  And it did imo; when Israel was judged. 


The old is no longer in effect.  The types and figues (temple, sacrifices, etc) were done away with.  God is no longer in old covenant with man.  it is finished.  The end of the age which vanished away imo.


So now,

if one still lives as under old covenant, it has no authority.  It imo, is done.  Man is living under a covenant that no longer exists. 

so i dont' see old and new preserved till now (meaning today) as it was done away with, vanished.


what ya think?

[pneuma]

Hi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Hi laren, I know you asked Bob this , but I hope you don't mind if I answer it also.

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

and what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can you show me where in the lake of fire/2nd death it says people die?

For when I read about the lake of fire, those in it are alive and suffer torment.

Hi Scott again,

I just reread your post, and I really like the way you worded that.  I think after all these years of listening and participating in these second death/lof discussions; I all along misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying "all" need to be hurt by the LOF in order to be purified.
Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.   

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

but for those walking by the spirit, perfect love casts out all fear. 

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

"never die", to me; speaks of "never falling from grace" and experiencing being left unclothed in our shame.  We are clothed with His rightesouness.

Hi Laren, well that misunderstanding would definitely cause confusion. You just made me glad I participated in this thread brother, even if we don't come into agreement at least a misunderstanding of what I have been saying is now cleared up.

God bless

[pneuma]

.will not enter into it because the cross has already done what the lake of fire does.

Hi Nathan, I agree that the lake of fire does the same thing the cross does, thus the lake of fire is the cross. But what is the cross, it is not some stake Jesus was nailed to, the cross is the law, when the law manifests itself it shows itself as a double edged sword, it is ordained unto LIFE but is also a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.

There is only one way God has designed for man to come unto Him by purification and that way is by the cross which is the law. The law is spiritual an if man fulfills the law death has no power over them, but when man falls from grace they walk again under the law and are thus hurt of it.

Jesus IS the lake of fire!

Again I agree, because Jesus is the word/logos/debar, and the word/logos/debar are every commandment that comes from the mouth of God..

[Craig]

Dont put words in my Mouth Craig when Im Asking questions ...ill thanks you for that.

By your question you revealed your proposition, I already knew you thought the Silver and Dross spoke of the individual person. Though, when speaking of Silver, God was talking about mankind in general not an individual. So the silver ore is all mankind, and what it means to be purified like silver, is to separate the silver from the dross. The silver is not burned in the process, nor does it lose anything. The dross however is burned and is left in the furnace.

You don't know what is silver and what is not until the end of the process. So at the end of the process, you can now see the silver and the dross.

This is repeated by the Words of Jesus,

Matthew 13:30
'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'

When does the Lake of Fire occur? At the end, not during. Why?

Matthew 13:28-29
"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 

The same reason why both the silver ore is put whole into the Refiners Fire and not separated prior, because to chip away at silver ore, you may destroy some silver in the process. So the silver ore is put wholly in to the fire where both the silver and the dross are separated. Then the silver is taken from the fire, but the dross remains in the furnace. So whether or not it is the same fire, which it is, doesn't mean the same thing is happening. Both go through the Refiners Fire, but only one remains in the furnace.

So now for the explaination:

The silver ore is all of mankind. The refiners fire is the tribulations and trails is the world. The silver are the sons of the kingdom, while the dross is the sons of the evil one. At the end of the age, the silver and the dross are separated, the silver into the storehouse, the dross thrown into the furnace of fire, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous shall shine forth as the Sun in the Kingdom of the Father. He who has ears, let them hear.

so maybe the question is...what Does His Blood purfify us of....well thats Sin isnt It?...so what SINS?...THE SPIRIT?

That isn't a question, that is many questions. :)

I have already explained what is happening. Yes, Jesus died and reconciled the world to Himself by the cross. Everyone is considered dead to sin as a result of what Jesus had done so that they should not live for themselves but for Him who died and rose again. Yet, some people live for Him, while others continue to live for themselves.  A person cannot serve two masters. Being already dead to sin the first time through Christ, they have become slaves to it once again by not choosing to live for Him who died for them. So now, they are to be refined, but not as silver but tested in the furnace of affliction where the person will die to sin a second time because God will not yield glory to another (the other master).

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Do you believe this?

So far in this discussion I have found a few who don't believe it. They do not recognize that people will die, and some will never die. They think we will all die.

So the blood purifies those who continue to wash themselves by it.

Revelation 7:14
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is by faith, it is not literal but spiritual.

Hebrews 10:12-31
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water (metaphor for the blood of Jesus). Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Most people misunderstand this passage. Understand the reason there is no sacrifice for sins is left, is not because we have deliberately kept sinning. It is because where where sins are forgiven there is no longer a sacrifice for sin. That means the fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God is not because of sin, but because he is forgiven what he is doing must be stopped in order to save Him. His actions are being corrected because he is saved but as one through fire.

Now go back and read everything I had presented previously, to receive more answers to your questions.

Craig

[Taffy]

THE old is no longer in effect.  The types and figues (temple, sacrifices, etc) were done away with.  God is no longer in old covenant with man.  it is finished.  The end of the age which vanished away imo.


So now,

if one still lives as under old covenant, it has no authority.  It imo, is done.  Man is living under a covenant that no longer exists. 

so i dont' see old and new preserved till now (meaning today) as it was done away with, vanished.

Laren...I agree with what you in essence are trying to Convey bro...

But, the OLD is preserved unto this day, BUT, does that mean the NEW hasnt replaced it..absolutely NOT....yes bro, the DAWN of a NEW DAY, its finished..I agree.

But the Old is preserved with Jesus Christ.....as the OLD bears witness too HIM,.as with the scrips..two WINES preserved and witnessed with these two

Rosie added to post concerning it earlier..preserved meaning to ne KEPT in MIND

Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.


1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] calledMercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

iT BY THE old all men ARE BROUGHT TO JUDGMENT....

I just Hope im not confusing the issue....which would be a first :laughing7:
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