23 Minutes in hell, a witness or no?

[WhiteWings]

In the natural, we have seen the end of the 6th day . . .we are 6,000 years from Adam.  And we are on the verge of being a witness to the rising of the Sun on the Sabbath day.  The whole earth . .all creation is being exposed to this new day, just as all men were exposed to the previous 6 days . . .But on the 7th . . .the last day of the last days, it was just two days ago when Jesus stated that he would "rebuild" the temple religious men had torn down . . .this is that day.

Are we near?
AFAIK the Hebrew calendar is at the year 5768.
And there are some speaking of '300 lost years' bringing it up to the year 6068.
So when have to wait quite a while or we are past the date??? :dontknow:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here are some passages that can be the rule of thumb for anyone claiming to even get close to predicting end times type of stuff. 


Matthew 24:42-44

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore, be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not  the Son of man cometh."




This puts an end to the "season" theory.  When will we know the season?

When it is upon us.

Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noah , so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[Pleroo]

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning..."

You knew someone had to bring that up, right?   :grin:

I brought that up a few weeks back.
fear is a bad translation I was told.
Should be 'awe'
The way I read it as a Dutchy
"The utmost respect (of things around me) of the Lord is the beginning..."

Hi White Wings :)

I'm from German stock and fear of authority definitely meant more than just respect.  An [un]healthy dose of abject terror was the order of the day.  :grin:

Well, I no longer think of the Father as the old man in the sky ready to use the belt on us at any given moment, and I was being a bit flippant when I posted that passage.  But Nathan was talking about God not instigating fear ... but He knows full well how we will react to Him in the "natural".  To us, He, in the holiness of His love and goodness, is terrifying.  When He first comes looking for us (like He did with Adam & Eve), He obviously knows that fear is going to play a major role, and I believe He uses that to start us on our journey to wisdom and full knowledge of Him. 

[Nathan]

Yet another example of why we need to let the way we read Scripture be transformed as well . . .we tend to take things out of context . .as is done here.  Matthew 24 is not about "end time events" it's about the destruction of Israel's identity as a nation and as a religion.  The reason . .to me, the son of man didn't know the hour was because, if you follow the history . .it was the religious leaders that imploded on each other.  Jesus knew it was going to happen, he knew the plan of God . .but men played a role as to the actual time it would take place.

Noah means rest . . .as it was in the days of "rest" which is the same thing I was eluding to . . .we are entering into a day of rest . . .we have entered into it.  as far as the calendar off-sets . .I am aware that natural days in our calander don't match up the "Jewish" . .but who says God is going by the Jewish for one thing . .and another . . .even though the sun rises at 6:00 a.m.  . . . darkness is long gone before the sun itself is actually seen.  This is why I say we are in the beginning of it, we are pioneers . .the first fruits . . . it's also why I don't really think that the natural calendar days really matter as much.  

I sense this thing God is doing has already begun . . .and as most everything else he does, it's a process.  Whether it was 8 years ago, or 300 years from now, the light of this has already had an effect on the darkness of many and it will only continue.

It's not about the end of the world on this earth. . .it's about the dawning of the Sabbath in "my" earth.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nathan ,  your reply is actually another example that scriptural context is not very well understood.


Context means nothing if you just make a summary of opinion without a solid scriptural point that puts those passages in that context.   You are however entitled to your opinion.   

The scriptural context is a rebuttle against the notion that a Christian can predict the return of Jesus Christ.   

Think what you want,  any Christian that believes they have the holy spirits annointing and can predict the return of Jesus is deceived. 


Your point about Noah meaning rest is refuted by the reference to the "flood" in the scripture that I quoted.   It is indeed talking about the coming of the flood being the same manner in which Jesus will return.  we will not know, cannot know, until it is upon us.

I will let the words of scripture be my opinion.

[WhiteWings]

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning..."

You knew someone had to bring that up, right?   :grin:

I brought that up a few weeks back.
fear is a bad translation I was told.
Should be 'awe'
The way I read it as a Dutchy
"The utmost respect (of things around me) of the Lord is the beginning..."

Hi White Wings :)

I'm from German stock and fear of authority definitely meant more than just respect.  An [un]healthy dose of abject terror was the order of the day.  :grin:

Well, I no longer think of the Father as the old man in the sky ready to use the belt on us at any given moment, and I was being a bit flippant when I posted that passage.  But Nathan was talking about God not instigating fear ... but He knows full well how we will react to Him in the "natural".  To us, He, in the holiness of His love and goodness, is terrifying.  When He first comes looking for us (like He did with Adam & Eve), He obviously knows that fear is going to play a major role, and I believe He uses that to start us on our journey to wisdom and full knowledge of Him. 

Respect isn't always about authority.
I also have respect (=awe) for nature. You know a small forest lake, trees, birds and a frog on a floating leave.
That's also awe for me. Much more btw than all those descriptions of heaven about gold and gems.

The kind of repect your speak about is fear. So I guess there are two kind of repect. I hope the repect you have for your parents isn't (only) based on fear...?

[Pleroo]

Respect isn't always about authority.
I also have respect (=awe) for nature. You know a small forest lake, trees, birds and a frog on a floating leave.
That's also awe for me. Much more btw than all those descriptions of heaven about gold and gems.

Right, but doesn't even awe of nature include some fear?  I mean, put someone out in a boat on a lake in the middle of a thunderstorm or on a mountain in the middle of a snowstorm or at the beach during a hurricane and all those places that once engendered awe of their beauty and the mastery of their Maker, now engender fear of the power of nature and perhaps of it's Creator.

The kind of repect your speak about is fear. So I guess there are two kind of repect. I hope the repect you have for your parents isn't (only) based on fear...?

:grin:  I would say that I respect my father inspite of fearing him, not because of it.  But, as a child, the two were definitely intertwined.

[WhiteWings]

Right, but doesn't even awe of nature include some fear?  I mean, put someone out in a boat on a lake in the middle of a thunderstorm or on a mountain in the middle of a snowstorm or at the beach during a hurricane and all those places that once engendered awe of their beauty and the mastery of their Maker, now engender fear of the power of nature and perhaps of it's Creator.

Good example. Let me carry on with it. I'm not such a sea lover but I'll use is because of its simplicity.
I like being in a small boat an 'hear' the piece and quiet. That's awe#1
And yes you are right awe#2, a hurricane on that same sea, is what I try to avoid.

So the question from me to you is; is the verse you quoted awe#1 or awe#2 ?

Personally I think awe#1 because I see a certain timeline
awe#1 => Knowledge => peace in your heart => love (for God)

Isn't that the Bible in a nutshell?
But awe#2 never can lead to love. Obedience yes. But not love....

[Pleroo]

Intersting question, WW.  I don't know if it can be separated into neat little packages like that.  If fear of God can bring obedience then it must be in some way tied to God's love, because we cannot obey apart from that love.  The Scripture says that those who love Him, obey Him and we love only because we have first experienced His love.

I just happen to think that we, in our "natural" state, will often see God's love as a fearful thing.  The same love seen (experienced) from different vantage points engenders different emotions.  Does that make sense?

[Nathan]

Nathan ,  your reply is actually another example that scriptural context is not very well understood.

Context means nothing if you just make a summary of opinion without a solid scriptural point that puts those passages in that context.   You are however entitled to your opinion.   

The scriptural context is a rebuttle against the notion that a Christian can predict the return of Jesus Christ.   

Think what you want,  any Christian that believes they have the holy spirits annointing and can predict the return of Jesus is deceived. 

Your point about Noah meaning rest is refuted by the reference to the "flood" in the scripture that I quoted.   It is indeed talking about the coming of the flood being the same manner in which Jesus will return.  we will not know, cannot know, until it is upon us.

I will let the words of scripture be my opinion

You're not seeing what I'm saying.  I never said anything about your issue on the returning of Christ . . .frankly because you're not looking at it from a spiritual perspective.  You're bent on pushing the logical reasoning more than the spiritually edifying.  And this is why so many of our arguments take form.  We have people who see things spiritually, everything is a pattern of something else, and we have people who see everything as literal . . ."I'll let the Words of Scripture be my opinion" . . .Yikes bro . . . The problem isn't in the Scripture . . .it's in our perspectives of what it's saying.

I'll let the Word of Scripture be my opinion as well . . .but that doesn't change anything.  I'm not even sure what your argument is.  You don't think anyone can predict the coming of the Lord?  Well guess what . . .if you're still waiting . . .you missed it.  He's already been here . . .he continues to be here . . .and he'll be here tomorrow.

Who was it that showed up in the upper room?  Unless you're a divider of nations, "that" was the return of Christ.  A.D. 70???  Yup, that was him to.  Heck, Paul had him show up all the time . . just which return are ya trying to pin me on here?  He's showing up right now on this earth . . .IN US.

Not sure you had much to chew me out on before . . .but you probably have  a bit now.

Oh, and the flood . . .sheesh, it's not going to matter, until you see the spiritual piece of these things, all we're going to do is beat on each other with our wonderful personalities.

But the flood removed the defiled.  As it was in the days of rest, so shall the coming of the son of man be IN US. 

There is a passage that speaks about the knowledge of the Lord will be on the earth as the waters cover the see . .that sounds to me like a flood.

You want me to verify what I see by quoting a Scripture . . . it's another paradigm that you'll disagree with . . .but Scripture is not meant to be used as a defense of anything.  There are to many variables for me to stand here and quote stuff to you when all I'm quoting is a translation.  Adam walked with God in the cool of the Day . . .anyone ever look that up?  It has nothing to do with what we think it does.

A man who looks at his natural face in a mirror and walks away, forgets what kind of man he is . . .ever look that up?  I'm not here to quote a translation that isn't all that accurate in the first place.  My pursuit is to find where the eagles are gathered together . . .oooh . . that's another one . . .most translations try to tell you that it's supposed to be vultures. 

No, I've been through the days of biblical sparring and nobody gains anything from that.  If you don't receive the seed I throw out, fine, no offense, no harm, no foul.  The season isn't right and I'm okay with that.  But I've chosen to follow the spirit of truth . . .doesn't mean I understand everything.  In fact, there are actually times where I'm to shut up because when the Spirit speaks, my head can't hear it.  But when you want me to "confirm" by way of a passage . .that's not for your heart . .that's for your head.  And if your head can confirm it, then you'll accept it . . that's just all backwards.

It's the Peter experience.  It's why some of these conversations are frustrating.  This other post about silver and such that ended up getting locked up. . . the key with the Peter thing is . . .J . . .. here, let's throw in some context (I didn't say I don't use Scripture, I just don't judge everything by it literally)

Matthew 16
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Look at the pattern.  "Hey Peter, how do men see me?"  It is from the "big picture" that this thing started.  The Bible is a "big picture" book.  It has a "big picture" dimension to it, I'll agree, but that big picture dimension is just the surface level of what's being said.  The key to seeing it spiritual is bringing it from the outward . .the big picture, to inward . . .take the big out and you'll see the picture is always of Christ and his redemption to you.  Jesus made it personal.  "Okay, now that you have heard of all of men's opinions of what "they" think Scripture says of me . . .what do "you" see?

That's why there are so many differences between these two groups of people.  Seeing it spiritually, you're seeing it by way of personal revelation.  Jesus really doesn't care what people's opinions of him are, he cares about what "you" see.  And what we're to see is not what Scripture states us to see, but we're to see what God reveals to us to see.  And he'll use Scripture to reveal, but not to defend or prove.

Adam and Eve . . .big picture, the origin of man.  Spiritually?  They are my mind and spirit.  David and Goliath?  My spirit and . .oooh . .big surprise . . .my carnal mind! (6 fingers, 6 toes, spear weight 6 cubics . .clothed in brass . . .

I gotta tell you . . .Scripture is way more fun reading now because it no longer is requiring me to perform or conform . . .it actually has transformed.  And if others disagree . . . got no issues with that.  Just don't ask me to prove what I see . . .I'll try to explain it, but I'll leave the proving up to the spirit.  You let the words of Scripture be your opinion?  I'll let the revelation of the Spirit be mine.  I couldn't explain all of it half the time anyway.  I'm glad Jesus states his sheep would know his voice . . .I can recognize the sound.  I'm glad he didn't say his sheep will know him by his Scriptures  . . that'd only add more fuel to a fire that's unnecessary to begin with.

[Taffy]

.Scripture is way more fun reading now because it no longer is requiring me to perform or conform . . .it actually has transformed.

Amen There bro,,great fun it is toooooooooooooooo. :icon_flower:



continue  Nat, to speak as you do, because for mine,..I love it........... :icon_flower:

T

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi nathan,

You've completely made my comments into something that was not an intention on my part.   I simply used scripture to point out that if someone believes they can predict the end times,  they are decieved.

You may believe Jesus is already returned and you may be correct, my argument was not about that.  It was about those who would disagree with you on the matter and say that he has not returned and can predict even an approximation of when that will be.

If you are correct that Jesus is already here, then you did not predict it either, you did exactly what I said scripture points out.  You realized it may be upon us now.

My point still stands in that regaurd.

And true, we can beat each other with our personalities which is why I will not address any more of your post.

[firstborn888]

No, I've been through the days of biblical sparring and nobody gains anything from that.  If you don't receive the seed I throw out, fine, no offense, no harm, no foul.  The season isn't right and I'm okay with that.  But I've chosen to follow the spirit of truth . . .doesn't mean I understand everything.  In fact, there are actually times where I'm to shut up because when the Spirit speaks, my head can't hear it.  But when you want me to "confirm" by way of a passage . .that's not for your heart . .that's for your head.  And if your head can confirm it, then you'll accept it . . that's just all backwards.

Nathan, your speech here resonates w/me. I'm a bit curious as to your background - you seem to be a young man? (or are you just young at heart?).

I also think the spirit of these discussions have been very good, hats off to all the contributors for keeping it civil and informative.  :Sparkletooth:

AM, I'm impressed by your humility and willingness to question. I hope I do not put anyone off by an apparent overconfidence in some areas. There are areas I am very weak in but in this area I speak with a lot of confidence for spiritual reasons. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

AM, I'm impressed by your humility and willingness to question. I hope I do not put anyone off by an apparent overconfidence in some areas. There are areas I am very weak in but in this area I speak with a lot of confidence for spiritual reasons. 

I am never put off by confidence and will engage in discussion with anyone and deal with whatever comments are made as best I can.   I am not perfect and my personality does get in the way at times.

I am confident in areas in the sense that I am not timid in putting my point of view out there and am not concerned that it is scrutinized.   But if confidence blinds one to correction then it is not good and I speak for myself as well as anyone that might speak to.

What makes a discussion tedious is the claims that one is walking greater in the spirit because they feel they have a much more correct and/or spiritual perspective than someone else.  The feeling of this spirituality has nothing to do with truth.  The announcement of such does not either and is like a clanging bell.   ;)

[firstborn888]

AM, I'm impressed by your humility and willingness to question. I hope I do not put anyone off by an apparent overconfidence in some areas. There are areas I am very weak in but in this area I speak with a lot of confidence for spiritual reasons. 

I am never put off by confidence and will engage in discussion with anyone and deal with whatever comments are made as best I can.   I am not perfect and my personality does get in the way at times.

I am confident in areas in the sense that I am not timid in putting my point of view out there and am not concerned that it is scrutinized. 

Good points. I love to have everything challenged. Anything which can be shaken will be shaken, right?

[reFORMer]

Some claim to have seen visions of "hell," yet most of those receiving them refuse even the most brief and introductory remarks concerning Bible facts rather than the words or traditions of men. Consider what Jeremiah 23:16 says: "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD." Don't misunderstand. I very much believe in dreams and visions from God.

The angel accompanying a vision I had years ago said, "The song of the Damned." I heard the sound as of many waters from the many voices of multitudes in something like a sun. I wanted to see it closer and I immediately did. There was a man rolling in the fire crying out a long wavering groan. Nothing was said to me about this being permanent or what or where it was. Some years later I realized that a guy who had visited our fellowship was that man in the fire. Shortly after, on a rainy day in an intersection his motorcycle slid out from under him and he was run over twice in the middle by a very heavy beverage truck. He at that moment rose up, turning to look into my eyes where I stood on the nearby curb holding a large Bible. He sunk to the pavement and died a little later.

[Nathan]

ReFORMer, interesting experience.  I also am one that does approach the dreams and visions cautiously, I got an email from a lady who is very much one who searches out these prophetic people and she's apparently on several mailing lists of their yearly predictions of what God is apparently going to do . . . in one of these there was a letter to the president requesting a meeting with him to "discuss" the things God has told this prophet . . .one of the things that stuck out was a warning . . .he stated that he saw Obama being assasinated and Hilary was seen to be replacement for the leader of America . . .and now we find out . . .she's not even in the running at all . . .

Like anything else for me, when God "does" give me a vision or dream . .and to my knowledge, this has only happened once, but I kept it in my mind, but only on the back burner... It's like if someone wanted to get new carpeting and they needed to compare the colors, they'd get  a swatch of the new and bring it home to see how the rest of their house matched it . . . the visions and dreams to me are swatches . . .I'll keep them around until I enter a room spiritually, where it matches up and go from there.  Until then, I really don't give them that much thought.

Firstborn888,
I'm voting for "young at heart".  I'm 47, been in the church since birth, mainly in the assemblies.  My Dad is very strong in his beliefs, even though he always seemed to be the only one that saw things a certain way.  I myself, drifted in and out of church in the middle years . . .I stayed in mostly due to singing in the choir . .. always been a worshiper at heart . . .met my wife in church, got married, then quit for a couple years.  Had two girls . . .at my wife's prompting, we started going back . . .wanted to establish some religion in the girls as they were still young.

But when we returned, the church had been very deeply affected by the Florida, Brownsville revival . . .and in that, I, even though I never made the trip to Florida, I did have a life-changing experience through that and haven't looked back since.  6 years ago, I did have my own vision and led me to becoming the Pastor of the church I'm currently in.  One year into this pastorship, I doctrinally left the traditional understanding for the kingdom perspectives.  I've been keeping a fairly low profile when around my peers in the denomination . . .not out of fear, just out of respect for the seasons of others. 

I quit preparing sermons, quit preaching denominational stuff, even quit singing current contemporary songs . .not because we're against them, it's just God has been giving us our own things to sing that are much more relevant to what he's been teaching us . . . "But then the day had come, God sent a new song, words my mind had never sung, but my spirit has known all along . . .it's not about knowledge or increasing understanding, it's flying in the spirit without worrying about the landing . . ."

it's a hoot.


Paul:
I did start my response to you off by stating I wasn't seeing clearly what your argument was . . .and the points I laid out were dealing with other things you had stated about how I took things out of context . .and that you would let the Bible be your opinion . .those are the comments I was addressing.  I think you and I agree on the idea of people trying to put a literal time-line to Scripture . .however . .the other point I was stating there was the fact that this coming of the Lord isn't even an accurate understanding either . . .again, these things are just where I'm at and what I see today . .thing's continue to move as we live and have our being in Christ.  Not offended or frustrated.  Just laying out my own perspective on some of the things that were said.

For me, truth isn't about who's right or who's wrong . . . If anything, I see Truth as the illuminating factor in "who's One."

[firstborn888]

Firstborn888,
I'm voting for "young at heart".  I'm 47, been in the church since birth, mainly in the assemblies.  My Dad is very strong in his beliefs, even though he always seemed to be the only one that saw things a certain way.  I myself, drifted in and out of church in the middle years . . .I stayed in mostly due to singing in the choir . .. always been a worshiper at heart . . .met my wife in church, got married, then quit for a couple years.  Had two girls . . .

Wow. You have the fresh zeal/passion of a 25 year old. That's awesome. My wife was raised AG and I have 2 girls as well. I've always been at odds with the AG for various reasons even though there are some great folks and good friends there and some great worship times. I remember a 'worship concert' in the early eighties (or late 70's?) with Craig Smith (former beegees drummer) and I also went to Brownsville soon after that started.

I came to the Lord directly from atheism and it happened basically alone in my room (in '77 at the age of 20) and I came to know UR from scripture almost immediately so I carry very little religious baggage for which I am very thankful  :thumbsup: 

If anyone's interested you can read my brief testimony at Debbie Boutwell's site http://scaredofhell.com/

It's on the 'testimonies' page http://scaredofhell.com/Testimonies.html and is the third one down entitled "Byron's story"

[Average_Bear]

Here's an update:

I guess 23 minutes of fame wasn't quite enough for Mr. Weise. As I was strolling through Walmart yesterday, I noticed his book - the product of his sick little mind. No surprise, I'd seen it in Walmart before. But right next to it, there's another book - at least twice as thick - and it's his too, a sequel to his infernal series. The title was Hell, Separating Fact and Fiction, or something like that. Can you believe it? He "goes to hell" and suddenly he's an expert on hellology (did I just make up a new word?  :laughing7: ) I glanced through the table of contents and it supposedly answers the FAQs about hell, you know like Why would a loving God send people to hell?, etc. There's no need to waste your time reading it. I predict that he just repeats the same nonsense we've all been fed for centuries. Even so, there are many questions no ET believer could ever answer. Here's just one, for example: If salvation means being saved from hell, why is it never defined as such? If we're saved from hell, wouldn't that be the most important thing about it? Who cares about being saved from "our enemies", "this present evil world", if our eternal fate is in the balance? Why would Jesus waste his time healing the sick and feeding the hungry if the masses were on their way to hell?

[DeeDee]

I know Average Bear. Lots about these Heaven and Hell NDE's just don't add up to me. They are still scary none the less.

Blessings
Dee

[Andromeda_Organa]

I personally think Bill Weiss is more interested in making money than promoting God's Word. He has a second book out too- as if his first 5 seconds of fame weren't enough for him.

[firstborn888]

I personally think Bill Weiss is more interested in making money than promoting God's Word. He has a second book out too- as if his first 5 seconds of fame weren't enough for him.

I didn't know if he was profiting or not. I watched/listened to his wife's introduction and Bill's telling of the entire experience and they seemed sincere to me even though Bill's use of scripture was such a crazy stretch in almost every case he quoted it. That led to my rebuttal toward the beginning of this thread.

[Andromeda_Organa]

All I know is that when I picked up this book at a Christian bookstore, I could feel the Lord bidding me not to read it.

[DeeDee]

I personally think Bill Weiss is more interested in making money than promoting God's Word. He has a second book out too- as if his first 5 seconds of fame weren't enough for him.

I didn't know if he was profiting or not. I watched/listened to his wife's introduction and Bill's telling of the entire experience and they seemed sincere to me even though Bill's use of scripture was such a crazy stretch in almost every case he quoted it. That led to my rebuttal toward the beginning of this thread.

So you think he might have dreamt it all? As opposed to lying to try and get fame?

Blessings
Dee

[rosered]

All I know is that when I picked up this book at a Christian bookstore, I could feel the Lord bidding me not to read it.

Hi Andromeda ! 
there is alot of theings
  I dont handle  taste and touch  anylonger .. :mblush: :msealed:
   Like Paul  taught  here .
Wherefore if you e be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are you  subject to ordinances,


Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;


Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

  I had to learn whjat teaching/ doctrine of men was first! :sigh:

   Like this fellow is teaching / preaching  :thumbdown:
  But sometimes the Lord does use fear to  make us wake up out of sleep /death  mode of thinking
   Spiritually speaking here