The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[laren]

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction (LOF imo) , and many there be which go in thereat:


Mat 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way (by grace through faith=chastisement/suffering/fiery trial of one's faith), which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


And those that go through the narrow gate (first fruits, children of promise, via faith), through them the nations will be blessed.

[Molly]

Main Entry: re·fine
Function: verb
Pronunciation: ri-'fīn
Inflected Form(s): re·fined ; re·fin·ing
transitive senses
1 : to free (as metal, sugar, or oil) from impurities or unwanted material
2 : to free from moral imperfection : ELEVATE
3 : to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing <refine a poetic style>
4 : to reduce in vigor or intensity
5 : to free from what is coarse, vulgar, or uncouth
intransitive senses
1 : to become pure or perfected
2 : to make improvement by introducing subtleties or distinctions
- re·fin·er noun


A priest is an appointed function that acts as a mediator between man and God.

But there is only one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

This is why many of the current [unrefined] priesthood present themselves as Christ.

But only the Melchizedek priesthood could be this, a priesthood made by oath of God, eternal, a priest forever, the right hand of God.


Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[laren]

Hi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??


and what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[laren]

Main Entry: re·fine
Function: verb
Pronunciation: ri-'fīn
Inflected Form(s): re·fined ; re·fin·ing
transitive senses
1 : to free (as metal, sugar, or oil) from impurities or unwanted material
2 : to free from moral imperfection : ELEVATE
3 : to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing <refine a poetic style>
4 : to reduce in vigor or intensity
5 : to free from what is coarse, vulgar, or uncouth
intransitive senses
1 : to become pure or perfected
2 : to make improvement by introducing subtleties or distinctions
- re·fin·er noun


A priest is an appointed function that acts as a mediator between man and God.

But there is only one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

This is why many of the current [unrefined] priesthood present themselves as Christ.

But only the Melchizedek priesthood could be this, a priesthood made by oath of God, eternal, a priest forever, the right hand of God.

but, as the body of Christ, aren't those "given eyes to see, ears to hear, grace via faith" also a priest, a mediator. 

Jesus Christ=head plus body


Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

[Molly]

Yes, --

That is why he is perfecting us to be a living sacrifice wholly acceptable to God.

That is why we are translated to eternal as soon as we believe.

Maybe one could say we are priests in training...

I consider Moses a Melchizedek priest, as well as Joshua and the prophets.

We are becoming Benjamin, son of the right hand.

[martincisneros]

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If I may speak up on this verse, it appears to be the same situation as "never hath forgiveness" where "never" is actually "aion" 'cause the Concordant Literal New Testament puts in the phrase "for the eon."  It's evidently not the longer, more comprehensive eon between now and 1Corinthians 15:28 that we can understand other Scriptures to be saying 'cause in John 6 Jesus says that if you eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, then you'll have life for the eon and He'll raise you up at the last day.  Perhaps this confirms my previous observations on Matthew 25:46 about both eonian life and eonian punishment coming to an end.  I'd previously said that both come to an end.  The believer has life for as long as there is death, and when death is abolished, then what else can there be but life for all?  John 6 seems to add the close to eonian life by saying you'll have it from eating His Flesh and Blood, but then He'll still have to raise you from the dead in the last Day.

[laren]

Main Entry: re·fine
Function: verb
Pronunciation: ri-'fīn
Inflected Form(s): re·fined ; re·fin·ing
transitive senses
1 : to free (as metal, sugar, or oil) from impurities or unwanted material
2 : to free from moral imperfection : ELEVATE
3 : to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing <refine a poetic style>
4 : to reduce in vigor or intensity
5 : to free from what is coarse, vulgar, or uncouth
intransitive senses
1 : to become pure or perfected
2 : to make improvement by introducing subtleties or distinctions
- re·fin·er noun


A priest is an appointed function that acts as a mediator between man and God.

But there is only one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

This is why many of the current [unrefined] priesthood present themselves as Christ.

But only the Melchizedek priesthood could be this, a priesthood made by oath of God, eternal, a priest forever, the right hand of God.


Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Gal 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4  Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Gal 3:5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:6  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.



1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

[laren]

Yes, --

That is why he is perfecting us to be a living sacrifice wholly acceptable to God.

That is why we are translated to eternal as soon as we believe.

Maybe one could say we are priests in training...

I consider Moses a Melchizedek priest, as well as Joshua and the prophets.

We are becoming Benjamin, son of the right hand.

so do you see this training/becoming priests as the lake of fire??

[Molly]

so do you see this training/becoming priests as the lake of fire??

Well, Craig doesn't want to call it the lake of fire--he is saying these priests will be the lake of fire I think, or at least be part of it.

But, someone earlier called it fiery trials--the trying of our faith--that is part of the refining process--like what someone called a spiritual stairmaster.  It is a type of fire, for sure.  James tells us to count it all joy when we experience this.

[laren]

so do you see this training/becoming priests as the lake of fire??

Well, Craig doesn't want to call it the lake of fire--he is saying these priests will be the lake of fire I think.

But, someone earlier called it fiery trials--the trying of our faith--that is part of the refining process--like what someone called a spiritual stairmaster.  It is a type of fire, for sure.  James tells us to count it all joy when we experience this.

again, for me; there is a difference between fiery trial of one's faith

and

lake of fire. 



one leaves one clothed, not ashamed

Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.



one leaves one naked/shamed

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

[bobf]

Hi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Hi Laren,

The wide gate is building your house on the sand which is calling Jesus "Lord, Lord" but not doing what Christ says.  Christ always did the Fathers will.  So no, Jesus did not go through the wide gate, ever.

But God put all the penalty of our sin on Him, even though He did no sin, so yes to Christ endured the destruction part of the wide gate.

John 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That takes place when the redeemed of the Lord turn to the Lord with all their heart.  God circumcises their heart, God fashions them as His workmanship and ordains them to good works.  They enter the narrow gate that leads to life, and they never die.

[laren]

John 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That takes place when the redeemed of the Lord turn to the Lord with all their heart.  God circumcises their heart, God fashions them as His workmanship and ordains them to good works.  They enter the narrow gate that leads to life, and they never die.

to me, these are the same

Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed (ie: never die).

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

[laren]

Hi again bob

you have me thinking about you earlier post:

are you basically saying, all go through the wide gait to destruction (LOF), and then some from there build their house on the rock and receive reward, and some refuse, and go through LOF again?

as in two LOF's??

[laren]

Psa 7:5  Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honor in the dust. Selah.

Psa 7:6  Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.

Psa 7:7  So shall the congregation of the people compass thee about: for their sakes therefore return thou on high.

Psa 7:8  The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

Psa 7:9  Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Psa 7:10  My defense is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

Psa 7:11  God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psa 7:12  If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

Psa 7:13  He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

Psa 7:14  Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.

Psa 7:15  He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

Psa 7:16  His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Psa 7:17  I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.

[bobf]

Hi again bob

you have me thinking about you earlier post:  are you basically saying, all go through the wide gait to destruction (LOF), and then some from their build there house on the rock and receive reward, and some refuse, and go through LOF again?

as in two LOF's??

Short question but very tricky as it gets into the soveriegnity of God vs man's choices.

First of all, I believe salvation is 100% from God and that if God decides to elect say Paul to be saved in his lifetime, then Paul is going to be in the first resurrection, even though Paul will still be making choices according to his will at all times.  But Paul's salvation ultimately does not depend on Paul's will.  God chooses before a person before he is born, not according to the person's running or willing.

So it's not like God is putting all mankind through a LOF judgment now and then waiting to see which ones will repent and enter the narrow gate and then putting the rest through a LOF again, with God hoping that it will succeed the second time!!.  I think that's backwards.  God is not waiting to see whose will is 'good enough' to enter the narrow gate.  There is none good.  God saves in spite of man's will.  God causes the one's He chooses to enter the narrow gate.

If the LOF is a historic event, then it would be silly for multiple LOF's.  But the LOF as simply a symbol for God's judgment when God decides to visit judgment on a person for not doing what Christ says, then I think yes, there can be multiple reapings of judgment in this life-time.

[Molly]

THE WIDE GATE:

Psalm 9:13
Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

14That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.



John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.




THE NARROW GATE:


24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

--Gen 3


Ezekiel 43:4
And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.


2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.



Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.



John 10:2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.



John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.



John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.



"door"

G2374
θύρα
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare "door"); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.

[aspiring son]

THE WIDE GATE:

Psalm 9:13
Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

14That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.



John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.




THE NARROW GATE:


24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

--Gen 3


Ezekiel 43:4
And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.


2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.



Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.



John 10:2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.



John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.



John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.



"door"

G2374
θύρα
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare "door"); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.

And the narrow door for the saints (the elect) means that the lake of fire is in their earthly lifetime...

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ..." 1 Pet 1-7

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water: but one mightier than I comes, the latchet on whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with Fire...."Luke 3-16

"Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yeilds the peaceble fruit ot the righteousness unot them which are exercised thereby... "Heb 12-11

I wish I had time but there are many others

God Bless

[pneuma]

Hi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Hi laren, I know you asked Bob this , but I hope you don't mind if I answer it also.

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

and what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can you show me where in the lake of fire/2nd death it says people die?

For when I read about the lake of fire, those in it are alive and suffer torment.

[laren]

Hi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Hi laren, I know you asked Bob this , but I hope you don't mind if I answer it also.

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

and what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can you show me where in the lake of fire/2nd death it says people die?

For when I read about the lake of fire, those in it are alive and suffer torment.

Hi Scott,

I think I get what you are saying from the first part of your response.  Jesus went through te lake of fire, but it didn't "harm" him, as he walked by faith.  Just as the saints go through the fire, but are protected by the "ark" and don't get "wet".  The lake of fire doesn't harm them.  It has no power over them.  So anyone living by faith of Jesus will go through the fire, but not be "hurt" of the fire.  If that is what u are saying, then I agree. 

Where I personally disagree is if people are saying that you need to be "torched" by the fire, "hurt" by the fire; so that id purifies you.  If the lake of fire is to purify, then by all means we should be hurt by it, as that's the only way to be made whole. 


as to the second part, I believe the lake of fire is not literal physical death, but "die in your sins", perish, destruction of the flesh. 

I believe that's why it is "second death". 

I got to go for now, but i'll look up some verses later that i think speak of LOF being "death".

blessings

[Taffy]

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

:thumbsup:

Its the Death of what causes Death ( M.O.D), and all those under IT,Through Death LIFE LIVES.

Each will HAVE THEIR""""""""""""PART""""""""""""""""""in the Lake, this part being the Flesh ...either way ALL Flesh( the carnality of Man) dies......

T

[laren]

Hi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Hi laren, I know you asked Bob this , but I hope you don't mind if I answer it also.

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

and what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can you show me where in the lake of fire/2nd death it says people die?

For when I read about the lake of fire, those in it are alive and suffer torment.

Hi Scott again,

I just reread your post, and I really like the way you worded that.  I think after all these years of listening and participating in these second death/lof discussions; I all along misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying "all" need to be hurt by the LOF in order to be purified.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.   

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

but for those walking by the spirit, perfect love casts out all fear. 

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

"never die", to me; speaks of "never falling from grace" and experiencing being left unclothed in our shame.  We are clothed with His rightesouness.

[laren]

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

:thumbsup:

Its the Death of what causes Death ( M.O.D), and all those under IT,Through Death LIFE LIVES.

Each will HAVE THEIR""""""""""""PART""""""""""""""""""in the Lake, this part being the Flesh ...either way ALL Flesh( the carnality of Man) dies......

T

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Gal 3:7  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He thatshall not overcometh   shall not be hurt of the second death.

[laren]

Here's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?



I think what some here are saying, is that to come to faith, is through fire; and that fire is the lake of fire/second death.   

[Molly]

24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

26Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

27And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

28Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

29Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.

30Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the province of Babylon.

--Daniel 3

[Molly]

Here's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?

It's for growing faith to perfection--



1From James, a servant of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ.
   Greetings to the twelve tribes scattered all over the world.

2My friends, be glad, even if you have a lot of trouble. 3You know that you learn to endure by having your faith tested. 4But you must learn to endure everything, so that you will be completely mature and not lacking in anything.

--James 1