The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[bobf]

The reason I asked you to answer with a different possibility is because of your sub-question in Q1 and the especially the answer in Q4, do not support your conclusion and make your conclusion redundant.

I don't see how they contradict my conclusion either.  I don't see any problem with Q4.  I don't think aborted babies went into LOF in this life, nor do I think they entered God's wrath & judgment in this life.  I'm not saying what Willie is saying, that this life IS the LOF.  I'm saying that the LOF & second death is a symbol for judgment whether in this life or in the next life.

Similarity does not mean they are the same, that is a Undistributed Middle, and Hasty Generalization.  Three things markedly similar but different.

Yes, but things that are different have a difference you can point to.  I don't see any differences.  If everything I can learn from scripture regarding LOF and judgment are the same, that leads me to believe they might be the same.

[pneuma]

Not going to say much here as this topic always seems to turn into a mud fest.

For me, if you want to know what the lake of fire is read the 10 commandments, they are a lake/body of fire, the ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.

So we see those in death being lead to God how? by the schoolmaster and once they keep the commandments they have right to the tree of life Rev.20

And His commandments cover this age we live in, the ages past and the ages to come.

God bless

[Craig]

The reason I asked you to answer with a different possibility is because of your sub-question in Q1 and the especially the answer in Q4, do not support your conclusion and make your conclusion redundant.

I don't see how they contradict my conclusion either.  I don't see any problem with Q4.  I don't think aborted babies went into LOF in this life, nor do I think they entered God's wrath & judgment in this life.  Keep in mind, I'm not saying what Willie is saying, that this life IS the LOF.  I'm saying that the LOF & second death is (or may be) a symbol of God's wrath and judgment which can occur in this life or in the next life.

Similarity does not mean they are the same, that is a Undistributed Middle, and Hasty Generalization.  Three things markedly similar but different.

Yes, but things that are different have a difference you can point to.  I know of no such difference.  I'm pretty sure Leviticus 26 is an example of 'judgment of God' and 'wrath of God' even though the chapter does not actually use those terms.  Would I be making a hasty generalization to refer to it by those words?  At some point, when things look the same in all known essentials, one starts to wonder if they are the same.

They don't have any difference you can point to, unless you know the details. The more you know about it, the more you are able to see the difference.

A child being disciplined to not do wrong, looks also like a child who is being punished for doing wrong.

[joyful1]

This is the way that I see it...

The fire in this life is the same type of fire that is in the Lake of Fire = The Truth/The Word of God.

This is what "burns" a person when they know that they are doing wrong. The Father chastens every son that He receives... no one gets excluded as a "bastard." Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. When Saul/Paul was confronted with the Truth on the road to Damascus, he immediately fell down and called Him LORD. The Fire is pure, and frightening, and painful at first, but afterwards, yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

You can have fiery trials now--
or you can get immersed later--

but everyone will have to go through this process to learn righteousness--and once everyone has learned righteousness--we can, at last, have the peace that comes from God alone. We will actually be at PEACE and be ONE with all of humanity--IMHO.

I am filled with Expectation and HOPE! :icon_flower: :cloud9:
Joyce :)

[Craig]

You can have fiery trials now--
or you can get immersed later--

That is exactly how it is, Scripture is very clear concerning this process everywhere. The ones who are saved the Lake of Fire are those who kept their robes clean by the blood of the Lamb. It doesn't matter if the fire is the same fire, people keep making this an issue when it isn't. The Lake of Fire is not the fiery trails we endure, it is the last resort to those who after being washed, need their robes destroyed. (Leviticus 14, Numbers 19, Isaiah 4, Revelation 7)

[bobf]

They don't have any difference you can point to, unless you know the details. The more you know about it, the more you are able to see the difference.

I was hoping for an example from scripture pointing out the difference.

A child being disciplined to not do wrong, looks also like a child who is being punished for doing wrong.

So you think judgment is discipline while the LOF is punishment?  What is the difference between punishment and discipline?  Both are painful, though probably to different degrees.  Discipline's purpose is to correct.  That seems to leave the punishment / LOF in the category of non-corrective inflicting of pain or pure torment.

I can think of one scripture that seems to support a difference.

1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

[martincisneros]

So you think judgment is discipline while the LOF is punishment?  What is the difference between punishment and discipline?  Both are painful, though probably to different degrees.  Discipline's purpose is to correct.  That seems to leave the punishment / LOF in the category of non-corrective inflicting of pain or pure torment.

1Corinthians 11:32 is actually in the context of judging yourself.  That's the understood subject.  When we judge ourselves, we open the door to a type of God's anointing that'll train the flesh to discern the difference between good and evil, according to Hebrews 5:12-14.

But I'm wondering where this is going too, if Craig is interpreting the LOF as either punitive justice or retributive punishment rather than as directly and initially from first to last the process of transformation that many around here understand it to be.  KJV renders a passage in Hebrews 10 "how much sorer punishment do you suppose will he be thought worthy who has trodden underfoot the Blood of the Son of God..." and the word "punishment" in that passage is essentially the same word, though spelled a little differently and gramatically used differently without implying a change in meaning (i.e. sentence construction issue), to a word translated twice in Acts as "persecution."  Hebrews 10 is just saying that you lose your protection from the Lord and are open to the persecutions of this world, of the religious, and of the devil.  But I know that the issues of retribution and other types of punishment don't hang on that one passage.

[WhiteWings]

Please guys I'm not trying to stir up the coals here but...
If I look at all posts in this thread from a distance I see a part of agreement between Craig and Willie.
Both believe that there is a LoF right now. The difference is that Willie thinks all of us are in it right now. (put there by God)
While Craig thinks some stepped in it during this lifetime on volunterely(=religious) basis and so avoid the LoF after death.

[Craig]

They don't have any difference you can point to, unless you know the details. The more you know about it, the more you are able to see the difference.

Discipline's purpose is to correct.  That seems to leave the punishment / LOF in the category of non-corrective inflicting of pain or pure torment.
I can think of one scripture that seems to support a difference.
1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Bob, I am puzzled why why you are resorting to an ET mindset with concerning punishment. As I said, the LOF is far more complex than a simple answer. So remove the idea that it is non-corrective, and that it is purposely inflicting pain and torment.

A child being punished for doing wrong, is still corrective but a different method of discipline is being employed and it isn't there to just inflict pain and torture, in fact the pain and torture is subjective.

Here is the difference on a small scale, one is preventive discipline, the other is corrective punishment. Preventive discipline educates a person correcting their mindset. Corrective punishment is when they do wrong, correcting their actions.

Each person is treated independently of each other, God knows the heart of everyone and will judge each person accordingly, what works for one person will not work for another, this is not a general sweep. The Lake of Fire is a directly effective and efficient correction which is not unnecessary in nature if one is subject to it, but is the Lake of Fire is not necessary for those who have endured and overcome the trials and tribulations of life.

Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:"Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever.   Amen!"

Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Now pay attention:
2 Chronicles 23:19
He also stationed doorkeepers at the gates of the LORD's temple so that no one who was in any way unclean might enter.
Genesis 3:24
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Leviticus 13:46
"He shall remain unclean all the days during which he has the infection; he is unclean. He shall live alone; his dwelling shall be outside the camp.
Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13
"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter the new city, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

You say, "So how can everyone be saved?"

Mark 10:26-28
The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Did Jesus just stay in Jerusalem? Did he not go to the Samaritan and give her living water? Did he not go to the leper and he heal the sick? Those who are outside cannot come in until they are declared clean!

Now let us read Revelation 21-22 in context....

Revelation 21:22-27, Revelation 22:1-7
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Do you believe what Scripture is saying? It says that those on the outside will be brought back in. Nothing unclean will ever enter the city because they will be made clean! We are not secluded to the city, we go out and heal the nations outside the walls (the Lake of Fire) with the leaves from the tree of life. The river of life flows out from the city, the river is not dammed! The doors are always open! The people described in Revelation 22, are not the same people of Revelation 7. Those in Revelation 7 were never subjected to the Lake of Fire, but the people in Revelation 22 ere are those who were in the Lake of Fire and have been brought into the Kingdom.

Whatever happens in the Resurrection of the Dead, those who have kept themselves pure by the washing of the blood of Christ, will reign with God to heal those who did not. The wicked who died in their wickedness, the sinner who died in their sin, will be raised to life outside the City of God and there they will remain until they are healed.

This is the 'simple' view, because although I explain it this way, it is not exactly how it is but for understanding the concept of what is to come, that is what Scripture has said.

1 John 3:1-3
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

Unfortunately, fear has kept people from understanding what Scripture is actually saying.

So quick recap, this life is not Second Death, this life is the Tribulation. There is two types of people who come out of the Tribulation those who were raised first and those who were raised last. Those who raised first were not subjected to the Lake of Fire and those who are raised last are in the Lake of Fire. The first shall serve the last. As those who reign with Christ in the first resurrection of the dead shall go out into the Lake of Fire and it will not hurt them, as they bring the Water of Life and the leaves to heal to those who are in the Lake of Fire. From there, they give life and heal them, and bring them into the Kingdom of God. The Lake of Fire literally is the Second Death that these people come out of.

[Nathan]

Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb

You think this is still yet to happen?

Isaiah 45
22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have (It's already been decreed) sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Paul refers to this . . .in his context
Romans 14
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God

This is not to learn whether or not you're going to heaven . . .this I believe, is where that which we have built is tested by fire . . God is "the" consuming fire.

1 Corinthians 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


John is seeing the "now" in the spirit.  No wonder Revelation was used as a hymnal, they were of the UR mindset in the middle of their great tribulation.  Can you imagine for a moment, in the middle of all of the autrosities that took place in that time frame, how many "beleivers" were not only being tortured and mutilated, but to add to the physical pain and suffering, would be the emotional pain of thinking that their family members who were not of the same faith were going to hell besides?  What a great relief this would be to them to see that ALL are standing at the throne, serving God in the eternal realm.


And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
This is, to me, pointing to the fact that our memory of pain will be transformed as well.  Our memory of the curse, sin, death . . our time here on earth is all included into that.

[Craig]

Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb

Revelation 7:9-17 speaks of those who are going through Tribulation, not a Lake of Fire or Second Death.

The angel asked, " "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from? These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So where did these in white robes come from? They came from every nation, tribe, people and language.

Read Isaiah 4:2-6
In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.  Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem. The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire. Then the LORD will create over all of Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow of flaming fire by night; over all the glory will be a canopy. It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.

Now reread Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:"Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever.   Amen!"

Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

These are those who survived the great Tribulation! The issue of UR/CU is not who survived the great Tribulation! Most almost  everyone's issue in UR/CU is what happened to those who did not survive and whether or not if they or someone they love did not survive what happens to them!

[Nathan]

So again, you're saying that not all will survive?  That not "every knee" will bow . .only those that, by your rendition, have survived the tribulation will bow?  What if this tribulation is the same as the lake of fire . . .I mean, what if it's the same place?

[Craig]

I re-read what I presented it in no way comes to the conclusion where you have to ask 'again am I saying not all will survive?' There is so much presumption in that question it is difficult for me to hold back the many words I have to refute it.

what if this tribulation is the same as the lake of fire . . .I mean, what if it's the same place?

There is no what if, because it is not the same. Not only is there no Scriptural support for this, but that reasoning neglects the Resurrection of the Dead. Revelation makes it clear what the Lake of Fire is, it also makes it clear that the Tribulation is what happens prior to the Lake of Fire. This is consistently found in repetition throughout Scripture.

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. This is not an issue of survial, whether one survived or not, your question neglects the Resurrection of the Dead. This happens AFTER the resurrection of the dead.

So Nathan, what happens to the wicked in this life? Do they get the same thing that you and I get? I mean, if it is true that all that happens is that they wake up and find themselves in heaven ashamed, well you just openned the door to never doing good in the first place because who cares if I am ashamed, what is there to be ashame about? That is what believing Lake of Fire is this life gets you.

As long as people stop confusing the Tribulation for the Lake of Fire, this life for the Lake of Fire, it makes sense.

[bobf]

1Corinthians 11:32 is actually in the context of judging yourself.  That's the understood subject.  When we judge ourselves, we open the door to a type of God's anointing that'll train the flesh to discern the difference between good and evil, according to Hebrews 5:12-14.

My point was addressing whether there a difference between LOF judgment and in-this-lifetime judgment.  I was focusing on what happens when we don't obey that passage by judging ourselves.  In that case we are "judged" so that we will not be "down-judged" with the world.  Therefore "judged" and "down-judged" (LOF judgment) are not equal.

KJV renders a passage in Hebrews 10 "how much sorer punishment do you suppose will he be thought worthy who has trodden underfoot the Blood of the Son of God..." and the word "punishment" in that passage is essentially the same word, though spelled a little differently and gramatically used differently without implying a change in meaning (i.e. sentence construction issue), to a word translated twice in Acts as "persecution."  Hebrews 10 is just saying that you lose your protection from the Lord and are open to the persecutions of this world, of the religious, and of the devil.  But I know that the issues of retribution and other types of punishment don't hang on that one passage.

If you take a look at verse 30 and then check the Deuteronomy passage being quoted, the purpose of that punishment & vengeance is still corrective:  God is waiting to see that their "power is gone" then God "repents" of the judgment.

Hebrews 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Deuteronomy 32:35  To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36  For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

[Craig]

Again, if this life is the Lake of Fire.
The question remains, what happens to the wicked who die in their sin, who do not repent or change heart prior to their death.


Because so far, nobody has brought any logic to why this would be the Lake of Fire.

Ecclesiastes 4:8-18
If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still. The increase from the land is taken by all; the king himself profits from the fields.

Whoever loves money never has money enough;
       whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income.
       This too is meaningless.

As goods increase,
       so do those who consume them.
       And what benefit are they to the owner
       except to feast his eyes on them?

The sleep of a laborer is sweet,
       whether he eats little or much,
       but the abundance of a rich man
       permits him no sleep.

I have seen a grievous evil under the sun:
       wealth hoarded to the harm of its owner,

or wealth lost through some misfortune,
       so that when he has a son
       there is nothing left for him.

Naked a man comes from his mother's womb,
       and as he comes, so he departs.
       He takes nothing from his labor
       that he can carry in his hand.

This too is a grievous evil:
       As a man comes, so he departs,
       and what does he gain,
       since he toils for the wind?

All his days he eats in darkness,
       with great frustration, affliction and anger.

Then I realized that it is good and proper for a man to eat and drink, and to find satisfaction in his toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given him—for this is his lot. Moreover, when God gives any man wealth and possessions, and enables him to enjoy them, to accept his lot and be happy in his work—this is a gift of God. He seldom reflects on the days of his life, because God keeps him occupied with gladness of heart.

How many can you say that you have wealth from God and enjoy it? How many of you accept his lot and happy in his work? How many of you reflect on the days of your life, and you are unhappy?

I talked to a few of my wealthy friends, and they are content and spend lots of time with family and well off and happy. They don't believe in Jesus, they don't even believe in God. In fact, one said, his life is great, he doesn't need God. Wow, what a way to go through the Lake of Fire, totally opposite to what God said would happen. Opposite to what Jesus said should happen.

Believing that this life is the Lake of Fire, brings no hope to anyone especially when they see the wicked prosper in this life. It actually encourages people to be discouraged and go out and sin, so that they too can be in the position of power and wealth over another. Success in this world relies that you don't care about those around you, you have to lie, you have to cheat, but the reward is great.

So did Jesus just come to give false hope to the poor? You are poor, you don't have much, but don't worry if you live a life to God, you will be rewarded in the life to come while those who did not live to God have received their reward in full, with a happy life, big family, huge wealth, good health.

That is what saying this life is the Lake of Fire constitutes, everything is a hoax, there is no hope, you are what you are and there is nothing more, when you die even the wicked guy will be there with you, he suffers nothing but a bit of embarrassment when he realizes oops I guess there was a God.

[autoimmune]

One of the best understandings of the Lake of Fire/God as Consuming Love that I have seen yet comes from Pope Benedict XVI's recent encyclical "Spe Salvi":


47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation "as through fire". But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the "duration" of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming "moment" of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart's time, it is the time of "passage" to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation "with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our "advocate", or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).




Considering a recent talk he gave honoring Origen, I think Benedict XVI may be a "closet URer" :)

Mary Ellen

[laren]

Again, if this life is the Lake of Fire.
The question remains, what happens to the wicked who die in their sin, who do not repent or change heart prior to their death.

I agree, because we are saved by grace through faith,

and if the lake of fire is now, then those who go to their grave without faith, don't access grace/chastisement; and therefore are not saved. 

unless one is willing to see two different ways of being saved,

one by grace through faith and mercy,

and one by/through fire for lack of faith

[bobf]

Bob, I am puzzled why why you are resorting to an ET mindset with concerning punishment. As I said, the LOF is far more complex than a simple answer. So remove the idea that it is non-corrective, and that it is purposely inflicting pain and torment.

Ok, I misunderstood the contrast you were drawing between discipline and punishment.  To me all corrective punishment is discipline.  I certainly believe the LOF is corrective punishment too.

A child being punished for doing wrong, is still corrective but a different method of discipline is being employed and it isn't there to just inflict pain and torture, in fact the pain and torture is subjective.  Here is the difference on a small scale, one is preventive discipline, the other is corrective punishment. Preventive discipline educates a person correcting their mindset. Corrective punishment is when they do wrong, correcting their actions.

Ok, I see what you meant now.

Each person is treated independently of each other, God knows the heart of everyone and will judge each person accordingly, what works for one person will not work for another, this is not a general sweep.

I agree with that.

The Lake of Fire is a directly effective and efficient correction which is not unnecessary in nature if one is subject to it, but is the Lake of Fire is not necessary for those who have endured and overcome the trials and tribulations of life.

I think the scriptures show that all overcomers previously rebelled against God's word and reaped corrective judgment.

There are two kinds of 'trouble' God sends:
1. fiery snares - for the ungodly
2. fiery trials of our faith - for the godly

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth 6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psalm 107 repeatedly describes path of 'The redeemed of the Lord' as:
1. God gives them His word
2. They rebel against God's word (so they are wicked)
3. God judges them (rains snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest)
4. They turn to God
5. God saves them

Psalm 107:2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy; 3  And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.

Psalm 107:10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; 11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: 12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. 13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. 15 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

Implicit in the above sequence is that fiery trials can not take place until after #4 because prior to that there is no faith to try.

So the overcomers in Revelation 7, who are seen coming out of faith-trying tribulation, at one time "rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High" and were subject to God "raining snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup" on them.  It is THAT LAST QUOTED PART ONLY (which is #3 in the above sequence) that I see the LOF symbolizing.  I definitely do not say that the LOF and Second Death are 'this life'.

Did Jesus just stay in Jerusalem? Did he not go to the Samaritan and give her living water? Did he not go to the leper and he heal the sick? Those who are outside cannot come in until they are declared clean!

Now let us read Revelation 21-22 in context....

Do you believe what Scripture is saying? It says that those on the outside will be brought back in. Nothing unclean will ever enter the city because they will be made clean! We are not secluded to the city, we go out and heal the nations outside the walls (the Lake of Fire) with the leaves from the tree of life. The river of life flows out from the city, the river is not dammed! The doors are always open!

Absolutely.  I also see this in Isaiah 60 and Ezekiel 47.

The people described in Revelation 22, are not the same people of Revelation 7.

Agree. Revelation 22 = the many, Revelation 7 = the few chosen.

Those in Revelation 7 were never subjected to the Lake of Fire, but the people in Revelation 22 ere are those who were in the Lake of Fire and have been brought into the Kingdom.

I agree that those in Revelation 7 are not subjected to the LOF along with the people in Revelation 21.  But I don't think you've proved that they never went through to the LOF.

1. If the LOF is a singular event in history, then Rev 21 decribes that event, and only those in the 2nd resurrection go through it, and those in Rev 7 didn't go through it.  So in that case I'd agree with you.
2. But if the LOF is a symbol for a spiritual event then
a) Revelation 21 would only be an example of that spiritual event for those in the 2nd resurrection.
b) The same spiritual event could take place in pre-overcomers when they were rebelling against God's word.

Whatever happens in the Resurrection of the Dead, those who have kept themselves pure by the washing of the blood of Christ, will reign with God to heal those who did not. The wicked who died in their wickedness, the sinner who died in their sin, will be raised to life outside the City of God and there they will remain until they are healed.

Agree 100%.

So quick recap, this life is not Second Death, this life is the Tribulation. There is two types of people who come out of the Tribulation those who were raised first and those who were raised last. Those who raised first were not subjected to the Lake of Fire and those who are raised last are in the Lake of Fire. The first shall serve the last. As those who reign with Christ in the first resurrection of the dead shall go out into the Lake of Fire and it will not hurt them, as they bring the Water of Life and the leaves to heal to those who are in the Lake of Fire. From there, they give life and heal them, and bring them into the Kingdom of God. The Lake of Fire literally is the Second Death that these people come out of.

- I agree that the LOF & second death is definitely not 'this life'.
- I don't think tribulation is 'this life' either.  Tribulation is trouble sent from God, either fiery snares for the wicked or fiery trials for the godly.
- I agree with the overall picture you presented, and the roles of the first and second groups.

[bobf]

That is what saying this life is the Lake of Fire constitutes.

I hope you didn't think that's what I was trying to say.

[Craig]

That is what saying this life is the Lake of Fire constitutes.

I hope you didn't think that's what I was trying to say.

It is what people who believe the Lake of Fire is this life are saying because they fail to see the bigger picture of what they believe. There reasons of purpose and processes of why, which are neglected.

Now watch:

1 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Is Paul lying?

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

Was Jesus lying?

How about these Scriptures? Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12; Romans 2:6; Romans 14:12; 1 Corinthians 3:13; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:25; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 22:12

Is Scripture lying?

If anyone believes that this life is the Lake of Fire, that is what they are affirming.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Does everyone take the wide gate and broad road that leads to destruction? No. Few will find the gate and narrow road that leads to life. Those who take the gate to life, do not experience destruction. Do people believe that, or is that just something Jesus said to pass the time?

Now, here is what is happening. Yes, Jesus died for all mankind.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Because He died for all mankind, all mankind is now considered dead in regards to way of the world and so they have a choice either live for him who died for them, or live for themselves.

What happens to those who live for themselves?

Hebrews 10:25-30
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

What is this Day approaching, what happens to those who have trampled the Son of God underfoot and insulted the Spirit of grace? Is it not a dreadful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God? What would you call that? The Fire after the Lake of Fire?

Of course, if you are fearful, you will misunderstand what happens on that Day. If you are fearful, then you will misunderstand what is that Fire. If you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

[Molly]

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
This is, to me, pointing to the fact that our memory of pain will be transformed as well.  Our memory of the curse, sin, death . . our time here on earth is all included into that.

51And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.

--Gen 41

"Manasseh"

H4519
מנשּׁה
menashsheh
men-ash-sheh'
From H5382; causing to forget; Menashsheh, a grandson of jacob, also the tribe descendant from him, and its territory: - Manasseh.

[laren]

If you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

[Molly]

If you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

Craig, that whole post was beautiful.  You are describing the Melchizedek priesthood.  Well, you might not agree with me lol.  But, to me, that's what it is.

That priesthood, too, will be refined and purified as silver [by fire]--I'm thinking in this life--so that they will stand when he appears.




2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

--Malachi 3

[laren]

If you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

Craig, that whole post was beautiful.  You are describing the Melchizedek priesthood.  Well, you might not agree with me lol.  But, to me, that's what it is.

That priesthood, too, will be refined and purified as silver [by fire]--I'm thinking in this life--so that they will stand when he appears.




2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

--Malachi 3

but there is a difference is there not between refiners fire, and destructive fire??

I believe there is.

I also think it would be intresting to study what a "priest/priesthood" does.  What is their function? 



refiner's fire, imo; is by grace through Faith


and destructive fire is based on "not believing", and having to perish.


whoseover believes on him shall not perish (go through LOF imo)

[bobf]

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Does everyone take the wide gate and broad road that leads to destruction? No. Few will find the gate and narrow road that leads to life. Those who take the gate to life, do not experience destruction. Do people believe that, or is that just something Jesus said to pass the time?

This is the only part I disagree with in your post.

Yes, only those who take the narrow gate find life.
Yes, few are finding the narrow gate (not "will find" else few would ever find life) .
Yes, all who enter the wide gate reap destruction.

But I believe that the few finding life, the few chosen, all entered the wide gate before entering the narrow gate.

The "survivors" are those finding the narrow gate, right?

In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.  Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem. The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

But what are they "surviving" and why did the "spirit of judgment" come upon them in the first place, to wash their filth?  Not because God was trying their faith.  Because they were filthy.

Isaiah 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: 17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts. 18  In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19  The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20  The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21 The rings, and nose jewels, 22  The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23  The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails. 24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty. 25  Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war. 26  And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.

Here are the same two gates.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48  He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

As I said in my prior post, the redeemed of the Lord before they are redeemed, first hear and rebel against God's word.  So they "do not the things which I say".