The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Molly]

Molly, I have addressed the rootword fallacy concerning lake. It is a lake, not a safe harbor. However, you make a good point. If God is the Lake of Fire, why was it not called the Ocean of Fire or the Sea of Fire, because that would represent God better than a lake.

Yes, why a lake?  It also means 'pond.'  A small body of water.  Lakes are/can be cozy, compared to a huge body of water like the ocean.

Could it be something --personal?

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out your position on it--which I understand so far to not pertain to believers,-- and happens after death to nonbelievers?

[Craig]

I have stated my position many times. The Lake of Fire is the judgment which happens at physical death for the wicked. It is corrective punishment which is reserved for the persistent wicked so that they may enter the Kingdom of God. It is the Day of Light which reveals each man's work, the righteous receive their reward because the fire has no power over them nor does it hurt them, but for the wicked they lose everything and are near cursed but are saved but like one through fire. We as believers have already access to the Tree of Life, even while we live; but those who are outside must go through the fire that blocks the way.

[Molly]

Oh!  This fire:

23 So the Lord God drove the man out of the Garden of Eden to work the ground he had been made out of. 24 The Lord God drove him out and then placed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden. He also placed a flaming sword there. It flashed back and forth. The cherubim and the sword guarded the way to the tree of life.

--Gen 3

[Craig]

Right, there are more than that reference in regarding to what this fire is in Old Testament. It is far more difficult to explain than some simple explanation. As Martin said, WillieH's position seems (I believe it is) an over-simplification, people want answers quickly and in a simple package. These questions are far more complex to answer but because people are fearful, there is also a constant interference with fearful reasonings created by emotionalism, slippery slopes, straw men, and other constant fallacy. There is no simple answer to what the Lake of Fire is, and how it works.

[Molly]

Cool! I got it. :girlheart:

[WhiteWings]

I knew Jesus from the day I could comprehend that I was alive,

Me, too.  But I have friends who are only starting to know him recently, well into adulthood.

So, are you saying that the wrath of God is the default position for those who don't know Jesus?

And, those who do know Jesus are judged in this life? (which is more a case of being guided?)

Then,what happens to both groups after death?

Why is it a lake?  I'm sure you've noticed the Greek word--limne--meaning 'by nearness to shore', from the root word meaning 'safe harbor.'

I am not saying that at all. That is what WillieH is claiming by saying that we are in the Lake of Fire now. Notice how I am accused of not answering questions, yet always address and answer them when I can; but when I present questions and dilemma's WillieH does not address or answer them. Ask WillieH if he believes that the wrath of God is the default position for those who don't know Jesus.

Molly, I have addressed the rootword fallacy concerning lake. It is a lake, not a safe harbor. However, you make a good point. If God is the Lake of Fire, why was it not called the Ocean of Fire or the Sea of Fire, because that would represent God better than a lake.

When I combine your (Craig) and Mollies statement I have come to my own personal conclusion lake is a better word.
Sure God is big as a ocean. But the lake is punishment/correction. A lake can be quite big. But you see the shore. The end of punishment. And perhaps Jesus is the shore (Mollies safe harbor). When lost in the middle of the Atlantic ocean there is no hope. When lost in a lake you see the shore and have hope you can reach the shore where Jesus is waiting with a towel and bathrobe.
In a way lake=UR, ocean=ET

BTW I'm not picking a fight.

[martincisneros]

Why is it a lake?  I'm sure you've noticed the Greek word--limne--meaning 'by nearness to shore', from the root word meaning 'safe harbor.'

Interesting.  I had an odd quickening from that, that my mind would have ordinarily blown off, that I'll have to pray out until I've got the interpretation, or the point of why that registered on my gut.  Nothing to add right now.  Just "hmmm...."  I'd heard it before though.  Not sure if it was from Preston Eby or from whom.

...why a lake?  It also means 'pond.'  A small body of water.  Lakes are/can be cozy, compared to a huge body of water like the ocean.  Could it be something --personal?

Hmmm.... Again, nothing intelligent to add...yet...  I'm sincerely wondering what the usage of that word would be like in either the Septuignt or in other areas of ancient Greek.

[Molly]

Craig--a little more here--

So the flaming sword is the Word, which is Jesus--the one who baptises with Spirit and fire?

I am the way--no one gets to the Father but by me--we have to go through Jesus to get to the Father, that is, to get [back] into the garden?

So--in a sense--aren't we believers doing this in our lifetime?  So maybe you and Willie are both right?

Pick up your cross and follow me--we are walking in the footsteps of Christ, now--following him through the fire into the garden.  Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death...Thou art with me...

Judgment begins at the house of God...

We are being purified now by the Word...

[martincisneros]

Craig--...maybe you and Willie are both right?

:omg: I sincerely hope you don't get clobbered by both of them for that statement :rolllol: :mrflo:

[Molly]

Craig--...maybe you and Willie are both right?

:omg: I sincerely hope you don't get clobbered by both of them for that statement :rolllol: :mrflo:

LOL thereby proving myself right.

[WhiteWings]

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:
Sorry that my post was not clear to you... I did not mean to go over anyone's head... guess I could've simplified... sorry...  :mblush:

I'm still clueless. Not only about what you wrote btw. About most/all answers in this thread.
The concept is above my head. I'm likey to new to this. I'll just keep monitoring this thread as I do with most other threads.
Anyway thanks trying to re-explain.
(btw strong opposing views in a discussion are a good learning point for me too. So guys and gals sharpen your  :swordfight: of  :HeartThrob: )

[Molly]

 Running wild here...


Psalm 110:4
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


An eternal priesthood on the order of  Melchizedek--priest of the most high God...

Priest and King [of Salem =peace/ Jerusalem--city of peace]

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Eternal kings and priests unto the Most High God..





9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

--Rev 14



"angels"=prophets, priests, and kings...teachers..

[martincisneros]

There's no harm in letting this thread stop here for the time being.  No one has to "prove" anything.  Lots of other threads to reply to and to start.  If emotions are starting to run high, then just try to leave it alone for now, unless Paul Hazelwood or anybody else has anything to either contribute or to specifically ask.  Sometimes threads like this die for a week or two, or even a month or two and either a newbie or just someone that hasn't been around in a while will give it fresh warm blood and get it out of it's rut.  Of the threads on the Lake of Fire that have thus far been done at these boards, I do feel as though this has been one of the more enlightening ones whatever the rest of you decide to do from this point forward.

[laren]

Mar 13:14  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:

flee:

G5343
φεύγω
pheugō
fyoo'-go
Apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication to shun; by analogy to vanish: - escape, flee (away).

[laren]

Mar 13:16  And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.


turn back

G1994
ἐπιστρέφω
epistrephō
ep-ee-stref'-o
From G1909 and G4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).


garment

G2440
ἱμάτιον
himation
him-at'-ee-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of ἕννυμι hennumi (to put on); a dress (inner or outer): - apparel, cloke, clothes, garment, raiment, robe, vesture.


Luk 16:19  There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

[Taffy]

HI bRO

Where/what  I personally struggle with, is today are we still having two sets of "people", one's hardened, and ones shown mercy just as in the New testament times,

or is it all fulfilled, and the working out of the NEW in us can be viewed as a "wheat/tares" in us, with one part being burned, and one part Living (which would be along the lines of Taffy, Willie, and Pneuma).

or are there many many layers that scripture can be interpreted and all "right".

YeS matey..i came to my undertanding as you Know by LAW being the shadow,seeing TWO types everywhere...like the Pharisees being one type the Church the other...outward that is...BUT, that too tellS me of the In ward working process..its like it bears witness to it..get what I mean...hence the Wheat and the Tares.....the Tares the FLESH grow with the Hidden man, BUT when the HARVEST is ready,the tares( flesh) are Burnt....


you sort to see outwardly but also applied inwardly...,
Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Cr 4:7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Cr 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ both ((died, and rose)), and ((revived)), that he might be Lord BOTH of the **dead** and **living**.

T..

[laren]

you sort to see outwardly but also applied inwardly...,
Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Cr 4:7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Cr 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ both ((died, and rose)), and ((revived)), that he might be Lord BOTH of the **dead** and **living**.

T..

Yeah G,

I do see it as both, and I do see your view and appreciate it.  Christ is always glorified, and the Fathers unconditional love is foremost. 

:grin:

[Molly]

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Is this the tree of life?

[Taffy]

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Is this the tree of life?

:bigGrin:

[willieH]

willieH: Howdy bros  :icon_king: & sistiz  :icon_queen:

The proposal of VENGENCE beyond this life, be it HELL or be it another version of it that is proposed (by such as CRAIG - sotw) of the "Lake of Fire"...  is simply proposing that GOD in fact, resorts to the "EYE for EYE" brand of "justice" that is in the Natural... which CHRIST plainly taught as REMOVED by GRACE...

ANY proposals of teaching that we offer along with the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel and Reconciliation of ALL, must ALIGN with that GOOD NEWS... If not, the HOUSE is found DIVIDED...  and the message if scrutinized, is seen to be TWO FACED, and HYPOCRITICAL...

If, as such as CRAIG (sotw) teaches, ...that the LAKE of FIRE is a place of TORMENT in ANY WAY, and that SUFFERING is to be given out for SIN in ANY WAY... then these verses (among many others) are COMPROMISED:

2 Cor 5:19   The TRESPASSES are yet HELD against those of the WORLD...

Rom 5:18-20  The JUSTIFICATION is seen as CONDITIONAL and dependent upon OBEDIENCE, not upon GRACE...

John 1:29  The SIN in fact was NOT "taken away" for it remains a PUNISHABLE obligation...

Acts 10:34  God IS shown to be a RESPECTER of PERSONS, for OVERCOMING and being IN CHRIST, is not dependent upon our efforts at all...

So any left OUTSIDE CHRIST to be further PUNISHED, are found, DIS-RESPECTED by comparison, ...concerning the GRACE which relieves Christians from "punishment" for sin...

When JESUS stated the following He changed the observation, use and, practice of NATURAL [LAW/fleshly] JUSTICE which is EYE for EYE, to

DIVINE [SPIRITUAL/Grace] JUSTICE which is GRACE... for the LAW which REQUIRED and "EYE for and EYE", had been FULFILLED by Him for ALL:

(Luke 6:26) LOVE your enemies... BLESS them that CURSE you...

And this which states MERCY:

(Luke 6:32-36 / )  What "thank" have ye? ...be MERCIFUL as YOUR FATHER is MERCIFUL -- How is FATHER MERCIFUL? By LOVING the UNLOVEABLE, Forgiving the UNFORGIVEABLE... etc...

And this which states such, ...is PERFECTION:

(Matt 5:44-48) Be PEFECT as your FATHER is PERFECT... How?  By LOVING your enemies, BLESSING the ones that CURSE you... etc.

And this in which He pled to YHVH GOD on ALL of our behalfs:

(Luke 23:34)  Father FORGIVE them, for they KNOW NOT what they DO...


Furthermore... DIVINE JUDGMENT is not about doling out PUNISHMENT, as CRAIG (sotw) falsely teaches... it is about TEACHING RIGHTEOUSNESS:

(Is 26:9) ...When the JUDGMENT of GOD is IN the EARTH... RIGHTEOUSNESS is TAUGHT and thereby LEARNED...

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[bobf]

Craig,

My view is tentative and has been for some time.

I believe the LOF is a symbol for wrath & judgment of God.  Second death is death and hades being cast into in the LOF and therefore pictures the destruction of death and hades power over the wicked.  The purpose is slaying of the old man.

I don't know if reaping wrath & judgment now can be rightly referred to by 'LOF' and 'second death', but my tentative belief is that whether it can be referred to by those words or not, judgment now has the same quality and purpose as LOF and second death.  It's bad stuff intended to destroy stuff in man's will.  It's the removal of 'stony heart'.  It's Nebuchadnezzars 'abased pride' in Dan ch 4.  And I suspect that when Christ told the Zebedee bros. they would drink His cup, it was again the same.

Q1. How can it be said that those who are raised in Christ that the second death has no power over them.
A1. Because it doesn't.  Those who are in Christ have lost their life, given up their life for Christ.  There is no life to lose and nothing to judge and nothing to reap.  But they will have their faith tried in fire, but not of the 'snare' sort.  My own sub-Q to my own answer would be: What about when those who have risen in Christ fall back to the point where they must reap some more?  Do they re-enter the LOF or it's equivalent??  Well, I certainly think they will re-enter judgment, by whatever name you call it.  Ezekiel 18 comes to mind.

Q2. What happens to those who don't repent in this life?  When do they reap what they sow.
A2. They will be raised in the 2nd resurrection to be judged in the LOF and die the second death.  That's when they reap.  So you could say that I believe that only God's elect enter the LOF or it's equivalent now.

Q3. Craig would be an exception.
A3. It's kind of hard to address someone's personal experience.  Knowing Jesus and following Jesus are two different things.  I can know Jesus, know true doctrine, know His nature, know what He want's from me, and still not follow Him.  That's actually worse than not knowing!  Many stripes.  No one is an exception to 'there is none good, none seeking God' therefore I believe that all have or will incur the wrath of God.

Q4. Aborted babies
A4. Didn't go through LOF in this life.  Judged in the second resurrection.

[bobf]

The proposal of VENGENCE beyond this life, be it...

Why "beyond this life"?  If suffering beyond this life violates God's grace then so would suffering in this life.

is simply proposing that GOD in fact, resorts to the "EYE for EYE" brand of "justice" that is in the Natural... which CHRIST plainly taught as REMOVED by GRACE...

The purpose of "eye for an eye" is to get even and get rid of.  God's purpose for judgment is not like that.

ANY proposals of teaching that we offer along with the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel and Reconciliation of ALL, must ALIGN with that GOOD NEWS... If not, the HOUSE is found DIVIDED...  and the message if scrutinized, is seen to be TWO FACED, and HYPOCRITICAL...

Grace and judgment are not in opposition.  God's judgment (chastisement) yields holiness and righteousness (Hebews 12).  Grace involves chastening (Titus 2:11).

2 Cor 5:19   The TRESPASSES are yet HELD against those of the WORLD...

Sins held against would yield permanent death.  God's plan involving judgment leads to life.

The law as a schoolmaster:
1. man breaks the law
2. the law ministers death
3. man sees he is blind, naked, and dead.

Were sins held against, that would be end of story.

But
4. The law leads us to Christ and when we follow Him we are raised from death to life.

Rom 5:18-20  The JUSTIFICATION is seen as CONDITIONAL and dependent upon OBEDIENCE, not upon GRACE...

Righteousness is defined in terms of DOING.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 

But DOING is ultimately dependent on grace (Eph 2:8-20)
1. Faith is a gift from God.
2. We are His workmanship created unto good works that God ordains us to walk in.

God takes away stony heart, gives a fleshy heart, causes us to walk in His commandments (Ezek 11:19-20)

Paul labored, yet not Paul labored, but the grace of God that was in him labored.

John 1:29  The SIN in fact was NOT "taken away" for it remains a PUNISHABLE obligation...

People still sin.  Sin has not yet been taken away from the world.

Acts 10:34  God IS shown to be a RESPECTER of PERSONS, for OVERCOMING and being IN CHRIST, is not dependent upon our efforts at all...

Don't see how what I believe makes God a respector of persons.   God's choice or election is not dependant on anything about the person (his running or willing) only on how it suits God's plan.

So any left OUTSIDE CHRIST to be further PUNISHED, are found, DIS-RESPECTED by comparison, ...concerning the GRACE which relieves Christians from "punishment" for sin...

Some sooner, some later.  Same deal though.

DIVINE [SPIRITUAL/Grace] JUSTICE which is GRACE... for the LAW which REQUIRED and "EYE for and EYE", had been FULFILLED by Him for ALL:

Again, the purpose of "eye for an eye" is to get even and get rid of.  God's purpose for judgment is to do good to the person being judged.

(Luke 6:26) LOVE your enemies... BLESS them that CURSE you...

And this which states MERCY:

(Luke 6:32-36 / )  What "thank" have ye? ...be MERCIFUL as YOUR FATHER is MERCIFUL -- How is FATHER MERCIFUL? By LOVING the UNLOVEABLE, Forgiving the UNFORGIVEABLE... etc...

And this which states such, ...is PERFECTION:

(Matt 5:44-48) Be PEFECT as your FATHER is PERFECT... How?  By LOVING your enemies, BLESSING the ones that CURSE you... etc.

And this in which He pled to YHVH GOD on ALL of our behalfs:

(Luke 23:34)  Father FORGIVE them, for they KNOW NOT what they DO...

What God did to Nebuchadezzar in Daniel 4 involved torment & suffering, yet it was a loving, merciful, graceful plan by God.  In fact Nebuchadnezzar didn't say that God did something TO him, he said God had WROUGHT something TOWARD him, and spoke glowingly of what God had done.

Nebuchadnezzar's judgment was no fun, yet looking back on it, he would have wished it upon himself.  Therefore God was following the golden rule, not eye for an eye.

Furthermore... DIVINE JUDGMENT is not about doling out PUNISHMENT, as CRAIG (sotw) falsely teaches... it is about TEACHING RIGHTEOUSNESS:

Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. 11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them

God compares His chastisement to that of an earthly father (which we call punishment), and says it yields holiness and righteousness.

Hebrews 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10  For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

God's judgment is not eye for an eye because it is "for our profit" unlike parents who judge "for their own pleasure".

[Craig]

Craig,

My view is tentative and has been for some time.

I believe the LOF is a symbol for wrath & judgment of God.  Second death is death and hades being cast into in the LOF and therefore pictures the destruction of death and hades power over the wicked.  The purpose is slaying of the old man.

I don't know if reaping wrath & judgment now can be rightly referred to by 'LOF' and 'second death', but my tentative belief is that whether it can be referred to by those words or not, judgment now has the same quality and purpose as LOF and second death.  It's bad stuff intended to destroy stuff in man's will.  It's the removal of 'stony heart'.  It's Nebuchadnezzars 'abased pride' in Dan ch 4.  And I suspect that when Christ told the Zebedee bros. they would drink His cup, it was again the same.

Q1. How can it be said that those who are raised in Christ that the second death has no power over them.
A1. Because it doesn't.  Those who are in Christ have lost their life, given up their life for Christ.  There is no life to lose and nothing to judge and nothing to reap.  But they will have their faith tried in fire, but not of the 'snare' sort.  My own sub-Q to my own answer would be: What about when those who have risen in Christ fall back to the point where they must reap some more?  Do they re-enter the LOF or it's equivalent??  Well, I certainly think they will re-enter judgment, by whatever name you call it.  Ezekiel 18 comes to mind.

Q2. What happens to those who don't repent in this life?  When do they reap what they sow.
A2. They will be raised in the 2nd resurrection to be judged in the LOF and die the second death.  That's when they reap.  So you could say that I believe that only God's elect enter the LOF or it's equivalent now.

Q3. Craig would be an exception.
A3. It's kind of hard to address someone's personal experience.  Knowing Jesus and following Jesus are two different things.  I can know Jesus, know true doctrine, know His nature, know what He want's from me, and still not follow Him.  That's actually worse than not knowing!  Many stripes.  No one is an exception to 'there is none good, none seeking God' therefore I believe that all have or will incur the wrath of God.

Q4. Aborted babies
A4. Didn't go through LOF in this life.  Judged in the second resurrection.

Now remove the presumption that LOF is this life, re-answer the questions with what is another possibility.

[bobf]

Now remove the presumption that LOF is this life, re-answer the question with what it the possibility.

I'm not sure I understand due to typos.

I don't think much of my answer would change.  I would simply reserve the words 'wrath & judgment' for this life and the words 'LOF & second death' for the afterlife.

The reason I consider that judgment & wrath in this life may be what the LOF & second death symbolize (along with symbolizing judgment & wrath in the afterlife) is due to the strong resemblances between the two in terms of:
1. the conditions of entrance into both
2. the purpose and effects of both
3. the conditions of exit from both

If I said that 'LOF' is only for afterlife, while 'judgment and wrath' are for this life, I'd be left with two 'things' that are markedly similar (or the same except for timing) going by different names.  For those who enter / exit X in this life, X is called 'judgment & wrath', but for those who enter / exit X in afterlife, X is called 'LOF & second death'.

Maybe if you can point to a difference between the LOF & second death, vs judgment and wrath in this life, other than timing.

[Craig]

The reason I asked you to answer with a different possibility is because of your sub-question in Q1 and the especially the answer in Q4, do not support your conclusion and make your conclusion redundant.

If I said that 'LOF' is only for afterlife, while 'judgment and wrath' are for this life, I'd be left with two 'things' that are markedly similar going by different names.  Those who enter / exit X in this life is called judgment & wrath, but those who enter / exit X in afterlife is called LOF & second death.

Similarity does not mean they are the same, that is a Undistributed Middle, and Hasty Generalization.

Example:

These two things are markedly similar but completely different.

Another example:

After lifting 50lbs of weight, Jim's muscles ache and he just keeps getting stronger.
After lifting 250lbs of weight, Jim's muscles ache but he is crippled for life.

These two things are markedly similar but completely different.

Now closer to your conditions added to another example:

1. the conditions of entrance into both
2. the purpose and effects of both
3. the conditions of exit from both

Infection in the body causes pain and leads to anti-bodies which make you live.
Infection in the body causes pain and leads to death.
Surgery in the body causes pain which leads to the removal of the infection which makes you live.

Three things markedly similar but different.