Is Marriage Needed?

[WhiteWings]

And off-topic question to reformer (mods delete at will)

Is marriage needed?
The way I understand it....
Marriage as in the wedding ceremony is just an act of man.
When two people have sex(ual acts/feeling) God marries their spirits.
So simply put the one that takes your virginity is the one you are married to by God.
So sex outside of 'human marriage' is no issue. The issue starts when you break up and have sex with another person. So I would say a more correct action would be marry instead of breaking up.
Your first sex act is your marriage act.

Ok, I've bought an asbestos suite; so people "Flame on!"  :laughing7:

[Nathan]

I agree in that there seems to be a spiritual transfer between two people to share this union of intimacy together . . .It also helps me understand sometimes the problems people experience in relationship matters with their current spouse/partner.  At the same time, I also believe there is a healthy application of grace that must be applied as well.  To expect the indivual who lost their virginity (which usually is when they're quite young) to now marry that other person . . . it would more than likely create more problems than solutions.

Righteousness doesn't come through acting out good morals . . . good morals actually are birthed through righteousness.  But to turn around and try to now enforce a life-long committment with the two individuals, you've in your attempt to be righteous, have reverted to living by law. 

Just thinking out loud

[WhiteWings]

Nathan I was just explaining how I read it in the Bible. Not even my personal discovery. Knowledge from some article that I checked out and seems to match up with how I read the verses.
I would be a hypocrite when i said that's how I live or how my views of marriage are.
To be perfectly honest with you I still don't see the slightest problem with for example a daily (gay) orgy. :sigh:
So when I quote a Bible verse, even a relavant one, that doesn't always mean I agree with it.
I wouldn't be suprised I know more English rude language than many of the UK/US people here. But that just doesn't fit in this forum. I (try to) play by the rules and only show my religious side on this forum.
Lets say honesty is one of my few virtue's....

My search on the topic of marriage/virginity started not for myself. I can't go into details because its not my own personal life. But still I would like your or anyones elses view on the topic. I know the daugther of a collegue of mine. Nothing sexual at all I must add. Mainly by Bible related e-mail chats. She had a few boyfriends. She had a 8 year depressing period after her mother died of cancer when she was quite young but still very aware about death. Someone said 'why not try to pray'. She did and she claims that she prayed before going to sleep and at morning all here past sorrows where gone. She's thankful and wants to show that by living more Biblical.
Now she has a boyfriend she likes. Sex is also a way of showing love. So she struggles with having sex and having a Bible (outside marriage). Needless to say that I, as someone that doesn't even need to know someones name to have sex,  am not the best to give advice on this matter. The best I can do is honestly look up some quotes. But I ain't exactly skilled in the Bible :laughing7:

[Nathan]

Okay, let's tackle this . . .all religiousness put aside . . . Let me share my own experience with this topic.  About 2 years ago . .maybe a little longer, I had a niece attending my church . . .I was very adamant about letting go of the law and turning to life, pursuing Christ, let the Spirit do what Scripture says it does in others and refrain from inflicting my standards on them . . .I was doing great with this until I learned that this niece was sexually active with her boyfriend . . . every time I wanted to pull her aside and tell her that this was a dangerous game to play . . .a question would arise . .the same one every time. 

If she quit or continued, would it make her righteous?  In the flesh, it's the best experience this side of heaven . . .but at the same time, it's also a big problem.  It's a big problem in that it can lead to unexpected pregnancy, it can become abusive, it can be the "only" think keeping two people, who shouldn't be together, together.  Then there is the heightened oppotunity for diseases . . .but yet, none of those things are spiritually related.  Paul said I can do anything I want to do . . .I have the freedom to choose whatever I want . . .but on the other side, there may be things that I choose to do that are not benificial to me.

If it were me personally, I would highly advise against it . . .and that's all I could do.  Quoting Scripture . . .you've seen these forums . . . I could quote a Scripture supporting the fact that it's not going to affect her end result . . .and I could quote Scriptures telling you it's an abomination.  But if there is no conviction within her, there is no use trying to become the Holy Spirit . . . only the spirit can convict, all people do is condemn.

I would however, tell you what my supervisor told me in the early stages of my trying to live by what I preach . . . just love on them.  If you try to take matters in your own hands, you're just inflicting the very law that we're to be free from.  And here is the misunderstanding of this message.  People will take it to mean that you can do anything you want and God will ignore it because of grace.  I'm not saying that, I'm saying pursue Christ, and love on her . . .let Christ change her, that's what he does best.

If she continues to have intimacy with her boyfriend . . . if we live in grace and not law, love on her just the same with no condemnation or control.  Our goal is not to get her to quit sleeping with the boyfriend . . .our goal is to have her experience true grace in Christ.  When she does that, Christ will take care of her thought life . .and love life.  If I go to her and tell her I know what she's doing and it's wrong and she should quit . . .say she does . .then what?  Is she more righteous?

We want to measure our relationship with God by our works . .because people use passages about knowing who the disciples are by their fruit . . .but most over look the fact that Jesus wasn't giving us a free license to judge each other .  . he was actually referring to those who were false teachers and such . . .you will know the truth in them by the fruit they bear . . .if they bear sour fruit, you'll know of what man they are from . .and rather than approach them and condemn them . . .all he's saying is . . .don't receive from them.

Remember how Jesus handled the woman in adultery . . .if there ever was an opportunity for Jesus to hand down pious judgment, that was it . .but yet, instead of judging her, he set her free . . ."YA . .AND TOLD HER NOT TO SIN ANYMORE . . ."  yeah, he said that . .you think that if she did it again he wouldn't forgive her again?  Grace is much more powerful than the church gives it credit for.

I also believe . .now that you opened the can of worms, God loves and forgives a gay person just as quickly as he forgives this friend of yours.

Incidentally, I find it interesting that you feel it's okay to be gay .  .but yet you're concerned for this girl sleeping with her boyfriend . .or did I read that wrong?

Blessings.

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for the quick, clear an lengthy answer Nathan :thumbsup:

I could quote a Scripture supporting the fact that it's not going to affect her end result . . .and I could quote Scriptures telling you it's an abomination.  But if there is no conviction within her, there is no use trying to become the Holy Spirit . . . only the spirit can convict, all people do is condemn.

Please quote some verses. Personally I'm interessed in it too. Especially the 'not affect' ones.
If not to much trouble please quote 3-5 of each.
And only the very to the point ones because she and I aren't Bible gurus.

Incidentally, I find it interesting that you feel it's okay to be gay .  .but yet you're concerned for this girl sleeping with her boyfriend . .or did I read that wrong?

Though questions. Let me say it turns my stomach when i think of male gay acts (not the lesbian ones) But still I wish them all the happiness in their (sexual) life.
I ask you because I'm curious and because I feel I must answer her as fully as I can.
As I made clear I'm not exactly religious. And if ET exists I'm really am toast. (and not in the outer circles of Dantes hell) But that doesn't mean I want to drag her down with me.... So when she asks for 'advise' I want to give a Biblical advice. My mortal advice would be "Also try with another woman and man at the same time.' See what you like best before making a final commitment."

I hope that clears up your question. If not ask! :bgdance:

[martincisneros]

Romans 13 says that God respects and acknowledges the rights of civil authority.  In the Gospel of John chapter 2 it says that the first miracle that Jesus ever performed was at a wedding.  Many people today have believed in their hearts that their marriage was the first miracle Christ performed in their lives as well.  In the Gospel of John chapter 4 Jesus very specifically busted someone living with a man that He emphatically said was not her husband.  So, according to Jesus, a lustful deed without going through the socially acknowledged commitment process isn't a marriage.  1Corinthians 7 specifically says that marriage is not a sin, implying that St. Paul's sexual immorality comments and related comments about not inheriting the Kingdom apply to everything outside of a genuine marriage.  Hebrews 13:4 says that marriage is honorable and the marriage bed undefiled, but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.  I've fornicated before in a so-called committed to someone context and I've been married, and there is a glaring difference spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, and in every other way.  The actual marriage experience isn't worth missing out on when Father God brings that special one into your life.

[Paul Hazelwood]

And off-topic question to reformer (mods delete at will)

Is marriage needed?
The way I understand it....
Marriage as in the wedding ceremony is just an act of man.
When two people have sex(ual acts/feeling) God marries their spirits.
So simply put the one that takes your virginity is the one you are married to by God.
So sex outside of 'human marriage' is no issue. The issue starts when you break up and have sex with another person. So I would say a more correct action would be marry instead of breaking up.
Your first sex act is your marriage act.

Ok, I've bought an asbestos suite; so people "Flame on!"  :laughing7:

I would make the point that marriage in an of itself is meaningless if it's an act to just appease guilt or from religious pressure.

From a common sense standpoint,  we can see the results in our country of not seeking someone to love and spend your life with first for that is a more secure and peaceful way no matter what someone wants to talk about morally.   The spiritual aspect is for God to work out.   


In fact,  a "religious" ceremony doesn't mean squat for the inter workings of the two people who got married as seen in the religious community that doesn't have a significantly better stance with their track record to back them up.

I know personally two people that had the most religiously influenced ceremony you could ever imagine right down to scripture being read at every change of routine.   They are now divorced and the wife was almost beaten to death by her husband.   The ceremony was meaningless.

[martincisneros]

I would make the point that marriage in an of itself is meaningless if it's an act to just appease guilt or from religious pressure.

Few marriages are because of guilt or because of religious pressure, unless they're arranged marriages among the wealthy where the needs of the two young people involved aren't taken into account, but social standing and whatever else is being bartered over one or two rings.

I know personally two people that had the most religiously influenced ceremony you could ever imagine right down to scripture being read at every change of routine.   They are now divorced and the wife was almost beaten to death by her husband.   The ceremony was meaningless.

It's regrettable that many, many marriages do end this way.  Too many of them don't end in "at death do us part."  But the ceremony was what made them married.  Speaking from experience here and not just "letter of the law."  If they weren't living the Word prior to the ceremony, then obviously it was little more than self-deceptive that they were hearers of the Word and not doers of it.  But that was a pre-existant rebellion in their souls to the Word that had nothing to do with the marriage process.  Some could argue that the sex was meaningless that brought about a kid that grew up to be a mass murderer.  No, the sex was the process that brought the child into the world, just as the ceremony was the process of bringing the marriage into the world.  It's what they did with that afterwards that for the biggest part determined whether they were people of their word and of the Word or just people of the world, even if they claimed to be Christians.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Few marriages are because of guilt or because of religious pressure, unless they're arranged marriages among the wealthy where the needs of the two young people involved aren't taken into account, but social standing and whatever else is being bartered over one or two rings.

Within religion I would have to say that there is an overtone of marriage being the greater focus than two people being together.   I knew a pastor that married two people only because of them living together, no counseling,  even though we knew them and knew they had no business being married and it would of been easier on them both if they found this out while living together and not married because of the legal BS that goes along with it.

No, the sex was the process that brought the child into the world, just as the ceremony was the process of bringing the marriage into the world.  It's what they did with that afterwards that for the biggest part determined whether they were people of their word and of the Word or just people of the world, even if they claimed to be Christians.

The marriage ceremony is culturally driven as a symbol of comittment, but it has no bearing on the reality.   Me and my wife were married long before the ceremony because our hearts and souls were bound as one in comittment long before ever being in the physical ritual.  To some we were not living "in the word" but thats because religion equates rituals to spirituality and that is not truth.  We would have been together the same amount of time if we never walked down the isle.

Thats why the focus on the sanctity of marriage is about a ritual, not really about hearts.

[WhiteWings]

For me a good relationship is founded on 3 pillars.
Trust, friendship and sex. And as statistics show bad sex accounts for a huge percentage of failed relationships.
As we say you also testdrive a new car before buying. That may sound rude but look at it this way.
The friendship (and trust) part is based on common ground. Just as all the friends you have in your life have some common ground with you.
Fans of the same sportsclub for example. A relationship stretches that concept to the extreme.
Don't get me wrong, sex with someone you love adds an extra dimension. But what if after long years of waiting you unwrap your wedding present so to speak and the two partners aren't sexually compatible?

[WhiteWings]

Going off-topic now in my own thread.
How long does a marriage last in the eyes of God?
Does it automatically end at death?

Are there marriages after death? (in Heaven)
If yes are they new marriages?
I ask because of the following.
Suppose a loving husband remarried 2 times because both his previous wives died in a accident.
(not at the same time...)
Once arrived in Heaven there are 3 woman wearing a wedding ring they got from that man.
How is that situation handled? Does he have to drink a lot of energy drinks? Or worse does he have 3 mothers-in-law :)
How is that situation handled?

[Nathan]

Through previous conversations with you, my friend, a voice has been softly speaking in the back of my heart since this thread started.  I don't want to come off sounding religious myself . . . but the truth is, what you are looking for, we can give you words, but until you have a personal experience with the Spirit of truth in your own heart, these are just going to remain merely words.

Having said that, you're latest question, marriage between a man and a woman is not feesible in heaven.  For one, "we" are the bride and "Christ" is the groom.  That is the only marriage happening in the spirit.  What we do here on earth is again, patterned after what Christ is to us in the spirit.  All things happening naturally, including our attempts to understand scripture with our "natural" logic, are all temporary.  They are not eternal.  My marriage of 20 years with my wife will no longer be when my breath leaves this body of flesh.  There is a transformation of body, and soul at the transition between the death of this natural life, and the life in spirit following.  To the natural mind, it's still very much a mystery.  But there will be no marrying in the spirit realm with anyone other than Christ.

Third,
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

In the spirit, there is no longer a differentiation between male and female . .we are spirit.

Lastly,
Matthew 22
23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

27And last of all the woman died also.

28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven

[WhiteWings]

Through previous conversations with you, my friend, a voice has been softly speaking in the back of my heart since this thread started.  I don't want to come off sounding religious myself . . . but the truth is, what you are looking for, we can give you words, but until you have a personal experience with the Spirit of truth in your own heart, these are just going to remain merely words.

I've made very aware of that by the 1000s of posts on this board. But still I think words are a good start.
Even if I only understand 10% of them it's a 10%  gain...
And why there is a Bible? Only words too.
Or are you saying if the HS has a plan to visit met November 10th 2011. It comes at that date no matter what by behavior is right then?

[Nathan]

Words are seed . . .when the aligment is right within us, then life will grow.  The alignment is that we are spirit first, soul second, body third.  When we walk according to our soul (mind) we cut off the abiltity to reproduce life in us . .spiritually speaking.  Of course, words are important . . .but like everything else . . .Jesus spoke words .. . but they didn't understand a word he said . .because they had not yet received the outpouring of the spirit on all flesh to illuminate what the words were saying.

To be honest . . .you say you're here asking questions on behalf of someone else . . .I think God has been calling you . .nothing is by cooincidence.  And the knowledge you have was never meant for you to keep, but to share . . you have a wealth of truth in you . . .God wants to anoint that and set you free from yourself . . . keep playing around on these forums and you could just find yourself transformed before you realize it :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Hi again Nathan.

Life will grow if the alignment is correct. But my alignment never will be correct because I'm thinking with my soul.
The famous chicken an egg story...

I can assure you I ask the question on behalf of someone else. Not that I'm asked to do so in a direct or indirect way. And yes it's also for my own understanding. I just remembered her question of 2-3 months ago and thought it was a good question to ask. But I guess your answer is that God has 'set me up'
Makes me remember the verse I've read 10 minutes ago.
Genesis 50:19-20  And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

And for the HS visiting me.... I don't know the saying in English but some people won't even recognise an elephant when it's standing on their toes...  :laughing7:
Surely I hope for a visit but I'm more certain I will win the lottery twice in a row to be honest. The HS can spend its time more effective elsewhere. Defrosting my cold  :HeartThrob: is a tought job. Even for the HS I fear.
But that said. And all my jokes and sarcasm put aside I really am here to learn something. Not to tease so Christians. Or mock the Bible.

[Nathan]

Yeah . . .God's setting you up all right.  No condemnation against you for admitting you live by your head . . . but the draw back to that is, the dimensional stuff will be a struggle for you to grasp.  Even now, you're mind doesn't know, or recognize the voice of the spirit . . .you think these are just words for your head . .when we've made it as clear as we could, these are not words of knowledge, but words of revelation . . not that one person here is above any others . .it's all by grace that we see what we see.

You'll be much more effective to your friend by sharing with her a personal experience in truth, rather than relaying to her information that you yourself have not fully received.  The door there is open . . .and you're already peering into it, just step in it . .believe with your heart . who cares what your head thinks at this point .  . . I gotta tell ya, I've never had so much fun in all my life in the things of God than I've had these last few years since he has led me to this church to lead it away from the church . . .what a hoot!!

[claypot]

Nathan, your words are very good and refreshing to me. I sense a kindred spirit of a sort, I mean above and beyond the spirit relationship we have in Christ......OK, that doesn't sound right either as the relationship in Christ is the ultimate but you get my drift.

To WW, I want to say that I believe Jesus, via the Spirit tells us we are the world that God so loves and within this world is the Kingdom of God.lk17.21 Also within this world, WW, within you, are your enemies. Jesus said the enemies are those of his own household.mt10.36

So, the way I see it, within you there is a battle going on. IMO in the Old Testement all the battles and wars and bloodshed and so forth are showing us what is going on within us at any given moment.

I don't want to get too complicated or 'way out there' but I think this lines up too with what Jesus teaches about the Kingdom of Heaven being like a man sowing seed.

WW, in you seed has been sown and it may be dormant from your view but your very interest in the things of the spirit, however little, are signs that the seed maybe is sprouting. The seed is the word of God and it is spread into the world.

If any of this helps WW, I will continue but maybe it's just donkey fodder to you right now so I'll stop.

Hang in there.

cp

[claypot]

Oh, I forgot something. This may sound corny but as I read all the stuff about marriage I couldn't help thinking about Forrest Gump. An old movie but I watched it recently so it is stuck in my mind. I was thinking how he loved Jenny unconditionally. How, from one point of view, they were married. All the others that she had sex with were not even close to her husband. Now Forrest's love so worked that an actual marriage took place which I think is a very good thing. We humans need structure while in the flesh.

Forrest too is such a great picture of unconditional love. Strength in innocence.

Anyway, just my additional 2 cents worth.

cp

[sparrow]

This is basically what I believe:

The couple, on the other hand, who love not their lives unto the death of the self nature, who have learned the art of submission, and who truly love their spouse enough to die for them, will find a veritable heaven on earth in the one life which the two have become. And the two become one only when both partakers of the covenant are dead. As it is in the spiritual, so it is in the natural. Marriage, then, is not so much a matter of "until death do we part," as it is "until death do we JOIN!"

My husband and I sometimes remark to each other how we feel we are one person who was split into two people.

my mother and father were this way, too.

I believe there is a great mystery...
I believe some find their other half while on this earth and others will be reunited with them when they leave this earth.

Either THAT or my husband will be my absolute closest, best friend in heaven...
I'm ok with that, too.

But I DEFINITELY believe that we will still be close with those whom we loved.

[martincisneros]

We humans need structure while in the flesh. Forrest too is such a great picture of unconditional love. Strength in innocence.

Yup!

[reFORMer]

Romans 13 says that God respects and acknowledges the rights of civil authority.  In the Gospel of John chapter 2 it says that the first miracle that Jesus ever performed was at a wedding.  Many people today have believed in their hearts that their marriage was the first miracle Christ performed in their lives as well.  In the Gospel of John chapter 4 Jesus very specifically busted someone living with a man that He emphatically said was not her husband.  So, according to Jesus, a lustful deed without going through the socially acknowledged commitment process isn't a marriage.  1 Corinthians 7 specifically says that marriage is not a sin, implying that St. Paul's sexual immorality comments and related comments about not inheriting the Kingdom apply to everything outside of a genuine marriage.  Hebrews 13:4 says that marriage is honorable and the marriage bed undefiled, but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

This is another topic about which many books have already been written.  What Martin wrote in post #5 quoted above is very good and well expresses my belief too.  One thing I would add is marriage is not only before God, but in the midst of human community.  We not only marry in the eyes of God, but in the sight of other men. Normally, we expect to produce the fruit of our union, children, for which we are responsible and that we bequeath to the human community.  Our marriage is a public statement of our recognition of responsibility to those around us for what we produce in a child.  It also conscripts society around us to take care of the offspring we produce should something happen to us so we can't fulfill our obligation.

I don't agree it doesn't matter what we do here, it will all be the same in the end.  Yes all are included in God's great house ultimately; but, there will be ranks or orders, not all in the same glory or intimacy with God.  "...even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified (made alive.)  Yet each in his own class (order:) the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation (end)..." (1 Cor 15:2-4)  Different seeds (including things said and done here in this veil of flesh) have differing fruit.  Various areas of specialization in the Divine nature will produce great variety among God's forever family.  Each seems to have at least a physical and a spiritual body, with all differing.  There also are differing splendors.

1 Corinthians 15:35-41 (Young's Literal Translation):
35 But some one will say, `How do the dead rise?
36 unwise! thou--what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die;
37 and that which thou dost sow, not the body that shall be dost thou sow, but bare grain, it may be of wheat, or of some one of the others,
38 and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;
40 and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
41 one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.

You would do well to even re-read 1 Cor 15 in CLV if you can and meditate on it.

(I don't feel I have even achieved an introduction to some of what I want to say here.  Hopefully later, when there's more time.)

your brother, James M Rohde

[martincisneros]

Yes all are included in God's great house ultimately; but, there will be ranks or orders, not all in the same glory or intimacy with God...Different seeds (including things said and done here in this veil of flesh) have differing fruit.  Various areas of specialization in the Divine nature will produce great variety among God's forever family.  Each seems to have at least a physical and a spiritual body, with all differing.  There also are differing splendors.

I'm after being a part of the highest order that shines with the brightest splendor.  St. Paul was terrified by the idea of not competing according to the rules, missing the gold medal, and being just average in the coming world.  That's where I've been at for nearly 20 years.  There isn't anything that I won't do within the framework of the Biblical rules to win.  When I bump into Christians that get testy with me that it doesn't take all of that, I already know what their future is going to be.  For me, it's water off of a duck's back.  I don't have time to listen to it.   There were a couple of Gentiles in the 4 Gospels that Jesus was totally blown away by their faith.  I work daily to startle Him in that regard more than they ever did.

[sparrow]

Yes all are included in God's great house ultimately; but, there will be ranks or orders, not all in the same glory or intimacy with God...Different seeds (including things said and done here in this veil of flesh) have differing fruit.  Various areas of specialization in the Divine nature will produce great variety among God's forever family.  Each seems to have at least a physical and a spiritual body, with all differing.  There also are differing splendors.

I'm after being a part of the highest order that shines with the brightest splendor. St. Paul was terrified by the idea of not competing according to the rules, missing the gold medal, and being just average in the coming world.  That's where I've been at for nearly 20 years.  There isn't anything that I won't do within the framework of the Biblical rules to win. When I bump into Christians that get testy with me that it doesn't take all of that, I already know what their future is going to be.  For me, it's water off of a duck's back.  I don't have time to listen to it.   There were a couple of Gentiles in the 4 Gospels that Jesus was totally blown away by their faith.  I work daily to startle Him in that regard more than they ever did.

seriously, Martin? This is what it's about for you?

[martincisneros]

seriously, Martin? This is what it's about for you?

How else would one be servant of all there, if one weren't servant of all here?

[sparrow]

seriously, Martin? This is what it's about for you?

How else would one be servant of all there, if one weren't servant of all here?

Not sure how that answers my question?
How are you being a servant here if you see this as a contest to "win" out over others?
I don't get what you're saying, can you please clarify?