A typical response to a person asking about hell

[Shadow]

As for Hell... well that is an emotional subject, I understand how you would feel that way. It seems harsh that God would do that. But it is my understanding that God does not take a person and just cast them into the flame. It is by that individuals actions throughout their lives, that they send themselves to hell. If a person rejects Jesus, God cannot allow them to enter into His kingdom. If He just let anyone in, He wouldn't really be much of a God would He? If everyone, no matter how they had lived on the earth, got to come to heaven, there would have been no point in sending Jesus down to earth to pay the debt for sin. What Jesus did was not an excuse for us to just run a muck and do whatever. It was a symbol of His love for us, and by His death and resurrection, we are granted salvation- all we have to do is accept it by believing in Jesus. If we don't do that then effectually we are rejecting salvation and condemning ourselves. We are saved by faith alone, not by what we do, or how good we are, and this is Gods promise to everyone.

Arm yourself with the Truth of the Word, and rely on Gods promises whether you feel them or not. Things will change I promise. Maybe not overnight, but they will change. And remember, anything that is wholesome before His eyes that you ask for, He will give it to you. If you pray for patience, He will give you situations in your life which test your patience, If you pray for strength, you will find circumstances in your life which will make you strong if you endure through them.

However this doesn't explain WHY an Omnipotent, All knowing God would create people that as was so eloquently put, "they send themselves to hell"

I believe God is all powerful and all knowing, there is no such thing as "free will"

Am checking out http://bible-truths.com/ (Ray Smith's site)

"Choosing" :BangHead: :Shoot: to send yourself seems absolutely ridiculous now, especially as one didn't even choose to be born in the first place

Thank goodness I don't see things the same way anymore, it's always seemed so preposterous to me that one can CHOOSE to send oneself to hell, my goodness, even the calvinist view makes more sense :mblush:

[martincisneros]

In other words: Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved 'cause what the Bible actually means is that Jesus came to seek and to save the pious.

Just because people are dumb, stupid sheep that readily march off of the cliff into Gehenna while they're grazing doesn't mean that the Shepherd is less obligated.  It makes Him more obligated to each of them.

[B_T]

In other words: Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, but those that are lost in the fullest sense of the word will never be saved 'cause what the Bible actually means is that Jesus came to seek and to save the pious.

Either the lost have absolute free will to choose their salvation or God has the absolute free will. Most churches say that the lost have the absolute free will, but this is a direct contradiction with verses like "nobody can come to me unless the heavenly father draws him" or something like that.

[martincisneros]

I don't know of any parents that are worth anything as parents who have little kids that have the free will to take in a whole bottle of pills and to wash it down with some bleach.  Free will is between what you're going to wear today, when you're going to the bathroom, and what you'll do with the temporal promises of the Word that effect your here and now.  It's not the privelege of eternally disabling yourself from the Presence of Father.

[B_T]

You are so right, Martin! If your child tries to do something bad, you will stop him! This man-made God looks like a parent who will allow his children to commit suicide.

[firstborn888]

Free will is between what you're going to wear today, when you're going to the bathroom, and what you'll do with the temporal promises of the Word that effect your here and now. 

I'll have to disagree with the second thing on this list. There are times when the 'time' is not the time I would ever choose, like in my car stuck in a traffic jam while suffering from a bug which makes the time come suddenly. I really can't see how my free will comes into play on this one. Did I choose to get sick? To create a traffic jam? Did I choose the hours I had to be at work?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

blessings,
- Byron

[martincisneros]

I'll have to disagree with the second thing on this list. There are times when the 'time' is not the time I would ever choose, like in my car stuck in a traffic jam while suffering from a bug which makes the time come suddenly. I really can't see how my free will comes into play on this one.

:laugh2: LOL! Whoops! Point taken. It's been a few years since that's happened to me. But you just strengthened my point, Byron, that if we can scarcely choose "the day and hour" of when we're about to burst on the highway, then how on God's green earth are we sooo easily capable of damning ourselves for eternity??  Even if we could with the ease that we might accidentally damn our pants until we could throw those into a washer, Father would still have to be willing to sign off on the eternal burning plan and I don't see Him ever doing that from what I know of Him from my relationship with Him.

[Craig]

It is an oxymoron to say that we have no free-will and Jesus came to save the LOST. If God is all powerful and all knowing, then if any were lost, then God is not all powerful, and if any were lost, then God is not all knowing. But Jesus came to save the lost, that means everyone has free-will, they just do not have final word on their destination keeping God as all-powerful and all-knowing and we are lost.

Free-will does not mean all-powerful. Free-will does not mean all-knowing. Free-will means you have choices and the will to take those options no matter how difficult or easy the choice is. It is not self-determination, it is not omnipotence, or omniscience.

If anytime someone says, "Did I choose to get stuck in traffic," or any other such reasons to prove we don't have free-will because we did not choose to be there, they do not know what free-will is. If you get stuck in traffic here is your free-will: take out a crowbar and bash the guy next to you; try to take the next off-road ramp to the next traffic lane; sit there patiently plus a dozen or hundreds of other courses of action you can take when you find yourself stuck in traffic, you are free to make those choices. If you knew the destination of that choice would be getting stuck in traffic, you would not have choose it but since you have free-will and the inability to know everything including if your choice would get you where you want, you made the choice and got stuck in traffic, you should have taken the train.

Free-will means as a farmer you have 10 different variety of seed to plant and that is the plant you intend to grow. Whether the weather, soil, etc. allows the seed to grow, does not change the fact he had 10 different variety of seed to plant. If he plants an apple seed hoping for a orchard of grapes, that still did not change the fact he had 10 different variety of seed to plant even if he planted the wrong seed and go the wrong crop than he desired.

Free-will does not mean you know or have the power of your destination, it means you have choices on the journey.

:2c:

[aspiring son]

God knows the choices that we will make in all the situations we find ourselves in. He causes all the situations we find ourselves in. There's no doubt we have a will, but God makes us willingly do whatever is his purpose for the time. Look at the conversion of Paul. He made him willingly submit to Him by his spirit. Thus "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess" willingly, by the spirit of God. We grow in Christ by the ordained ordeals God causes to happen, already knowing the outcomes of how we respond to them. If I had free will to come to Christ, I would not need the Spirirt of God. But the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, so it's not by me I get and understand spirirtual things, but by him making me understand.

God Bless

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Shadow,


From my biblical perspective there is no scriptural backing for man choosing to go to hell.   There is also no scriptural backing that directly says man has  free-will.  Now, don't get me wrong, I know that not every concept in scripture has to be spoken directly for it to be there, but my main point is that we must continue to study those concepts that we may agree with now, in case our collection of scriptures to make a point are not being used quite correctly.

Me and SOtW disagree a bit on how free we really are and admittedly maybe it is just a terminology thing, but we do agree that there are not any scriptural explanations for man being in charge of his or her own eternal destiny that do not cause a contradiction.  The work around to the contradiction will always add or subtract from the scriptural wording.   A disagreement from that point on will result in a nice gesture that they hope you are listening to the Holy Spirit.   :icon_joker:    :laughing7:

In america we are free people,  but we are still bound by law,  but the difference is that American Law is not what is the guiding light unto our spiritual path and feet. 


Paul explains a bit of this controversy, in my opinion.


Ro 7:15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing.

I think Paul indeed struggled with the perception of our control while realizing the very lack of it.   Many things in scripture are relative explanations to our perspective.

We can appear to be Lost, thats how it seems,  but from how I view scripture, we are not in spiritual reality LOST, this is a path in a journey.  For how can we be Lost if God knows exactly where we are at and is directing our Feet (Proverbs 16:9)?

Paul explains the "cause" of his dilemma, even if even he may have not understood entirely the scope of our own will.

Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Despite disagreements on free-will,  I believe it is safe to say that modern watered down Christianity teaches the gospel of the Magic Genie.  If you rub the lamp just right, you will be ok, but if you don't then thats your tough luck and not knowing how is never an excuse.

:)

[Craig]

God knows the choices that we will make in all the situations we find ourselves in. He causes all the situations we find ourselves in. There's no doubt we have a will, but God makes us willingly do whatever is his purpose for the time. Look at the conversion of Paul. He made him willingly submit to Him by his spirit. Thus "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess" willingly, by the spirit of God. We grow in Christ by the ordained ordeals God causes to happen, already knowing the outcomes of how we respond to them. If I had free will to come to Christ, I would not need the Spirirt of God. But the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, so it's not by me I get and understand spirirtual things, but by him making me understand.

God Bless

I notice a problem that people have, they think in limited understanding by leaning on their own understanding of how things should go. It makes sense right, God is in control, He knows every choice we are going to make therefore it was the only choice we were going to make. That is linear thinking that only an finite mind can understand. People think that we have no choice, that the path we took is only an illusion of choice because that was what we were going to do anyway.

Does it boggle people's mind to think that God thinks in quantum and God knows EVERY choice to EVERY situation He has presented regardless if that choice and situation ever came up? In otherwords, God has provision for left and right, up and down, inward, outward, and beyond choice we possibly could have made or will make and that it is not set in stone until we actually have made the choice? Does it boggle people's mind that with all those organic choices that have EVERY path possible, that God knows all things in order to guide our steps?

Proverbs 5:21

For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and He examines all his paths.

Ecclesiastes 11:9

Be happy, young man, while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and whatever your eyes see, but know that for all these things God will bring you to judgment.

1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

He knows all things, including the things that are not and never will be but could have been. The reason we cannot get what we think we are choosing, is not because we are not choosing it, it is because despite all the choices and what could have nothing we can do, choose or say can bring us to that next step because first there will always be someone smarter, stronger, and wiser than us who can overrule what we chose in accordance to our will, and there are things God has not allowed us to go beyond. This is difficult, we have free-will in the habitation and boundary that we were setting in, but beyond that habitation and boundary, we have no power, no choice, only God.

Romans 8:19-21

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Hence the futility of life.

Ecclesiastes 6:1-12

There is an evil which I have seen under the sun and it is prevalent among men--a man to whom God has given riches and wealth and honor so that his soul lacks nothing of all that he desires; yet God has not empowered him to eat from them, for a foreigner enjoys them. This is vanity and a severe affliction.

All a man's labor is for his mouth and yet the appetite is not satisfied. For what advantage does the wise man have over the fool? What advantage does the poor man have, knowing how to walk before the living?

What the eyes see is better than what the soul desires this too is futility and a striving after wind.

Whatever exists has already been named, and it is known what man is; for he cannot dispute with him who is stronger than he is.

For there are many words which increase futility. What then is the advantage to a man?

For who knows what is good for a man during his lifetime, during the few years of his futile life? He will spend them like a shadow. For who can tell a man what will be after him under the sun?

Nobody willingly chooses to take the path to death, they don't realize that where they are death is inevitable and the choices we thought brought life, can actually bring death prematurely but we all have choices we are just not knowledgable and powerful enough to recognize if that was the right choice, only God is right and good.

[aspiring son]

Hi Shadow,


From my biblical perspective there is no scriptural backing for man choosing to go to hell.   There is also no scriptural backing that directly says man has  free-will.  Now, don't get me wrong, I know that not every concept in scripture has to be spoken directly for it to be there, but my main point is that we must continue to study those concepts that we may agree with now, in case our collection of scriptures to make a point are not being used quite correctly.

Me and SOtW disagree a bit on how free we really are and admittedly maybe it is just a terminology thing, but we do agree that there are not any scriptural explanations for man being in charge of his or her own eternal destiny that do not cause a contradiction.  The work around to the contradiction will always add or subtract from the scriptural wording.   A disagreement from that point on will result in a nice gesture that they hope you are listening to the Holy Spirit.   :icon_joker:    :laughing7:

In america we are free people,  but we are still bound by law,  but the difference is that American Law is not what is the guiding light unto our spiritual path and feet. 


Paul explains a bit of this controversy, in my opinion.


Ro 7:15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing.

I think Paul indeed struggled with the perception of our control while realizing the very lack of it.   Many things in scripture are relative explanations to our perspective.

We can appear to be Lost, thats how it seems,  but from how I view scripture, we are not in spiritual reality LOST, this is a path in a journey.  For how can we be Lost if God knows exactly where we are at and is directing our Feet (Proverbs 16:9)?

Paul explains the "cause" of his dilemma, even if even he may have not understood entirely the scope of our own will.

Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Despite disagreements on free-will,  I believe it is safe to say that modern watered down Christianity teaches the gospel of the Magic Genie.  If you rub the lamp just right, you will be ok, but if you don't then thats your tough luck and not knowing how is never an excuse.

:)

I agree, Paul. Sometimes debtates are simply over terms more than topics. I know God's way of thinking is far above ours. However you want to put it, my point is that it is biblically proven that man does not choose hell, just like we did not CHOOSE Him. And that's the main basis of the christendom argument on why God sends poeple to hell.

[Shadow]

Here's yet another extremely selfish response to the question

Why did God create man if He knew some would go to hell?

Preface

This provocative question comes from a Christian who is training to be a missionary. It was good to ponder this issue about my Lord Jesus Who created everything--

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

Why Were We Created?

This is a good starting point. Why were we created? Look at us--dust. What could we possibly offer God Almighty? Solomon said that the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him--He's too big, too awesome, too fantastic to be contained. We are like grasshoppers in His sight. What is man that God is mindful of him? Our answer lies in the Bible which is God's word. Let Him explain why He created us:

    ...thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Revelation 4:11

We were created for God's pleasure! Don't you know that God loves you and wants you? It was His whole purpose in creating mankind.

The Bible draws an analogy between our relationship with our earthly parents and God, our heavenly Father. Let us therefore consider why a man and his wife desire to have children: the joy of a little child, to replicate themselves through creation, to have fellowship with that little kid, to have life. God uses the family relationship to illustrate our relationship to Him, our Father in heaven.

But What About Hell?

Know ye not that hell was not created for people? God tells us who it was created for:

    ...everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Matthew 25:41

Hell was created for the devil and his angels. It was not created for man! God doesn't want anybody to go there, it was not His purpose for men to go there. God knew that we would sin so He made provision for us by coming to this earth in the form of a man and paying the penalty for our sins with His own blood.

Nonetheless, humans do indeed go there because many say as the citizens in the parable of the nobleman in Luke 19, "We will not have Him to reign over us." When such people are cast in hell, it is literally what they asked for. Nonetheless, God is not pleased that they should perish:

    For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Jeremiah 29:11

    As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die...?

Ezekiel 33:11

    The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 But Was it Fair to Create Us?

This is the bottom line in my mind--it would not have been fair for Him NOT to create us. God knew that many people would be cast in hellfire for their rebellion towards Him, but He also knew that there would be a multitude that would bask in His glory and love Him and want to be with Him forever.

Would it have been fair for me, Tracy, to miss out on knowing Jesus Christ because of the actions of the wicked? Would it have been fair for me to have been aborted of the opportunity to know my God and His pleasures forevermore? Would it have been fair for me to not have known love and bliss?

I say a resounding NO!!!! If God, in His Sovereignty had said, "There are going to be too many evil people, so I will not create man," He would have been overcome with evil! Evil would have dictated what He was going to do, would have denied life to the righteous and it would have stripped Him of His power as Lord of the Universe. Read what the scriptures say:

    Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12:21

If God had not created us, He would have been overcome with evil, for it would have dictated that the righteous would never have an opportunity to love and be loved by the One who is everlasting and full of pleasures forevermore. If the righteous were to miss out on the Magnificent God, would that be fair? That would be folly.

HOW UTTERLY SELFISH, just so YOU don't have to miss out


:mshock: :mshock: :angry1: :angry1: :angry1: :eek: :eek: :eek: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :thewife: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :talkangry: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :swordfight: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum: :btantrum:

Well I'd rather be annihilated than go to heaven if that's what it will be like, I don't think I could stomach the likes of you and all the others there just like you :eeew:

[WhiteWings]

Would it have been fair for me, Tracy, to miss out on knowing Jesus Christ because of the actions of the wicked? Would it have been fair for me to have been aborted of the opportunity to know my God and His pleasures forevermore? Would it have been fair for me to not have known love and bliss?

I say a resounding NO!!!! If God, in His Sovereignty had said, "There are going to be too many evil people, so I will not create man," He would have been overcome with evil! Evil would have dictated what He was going to do, would have denied life to the righteous and it would have stripped Him of His power as Lord of the Universe. Read what the scriptures say:

    Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12:21
If God had not created us, He would have been overcome with evil, for it would have dictated that the righteous would never have an opportunity to love and be loved by the One who is everlasting and full of pleasures forevermore.

So he claims God will be overpowered by evil humans. (not even a trillion of the worst demons would make a scrath on God armor)
Anyhow he won't get in Heaven either then; because vanity is also a sin. (thinking he's among the cream of humanity)

English is not my first language (yeah wise guys I know it shows...  :laughing7: ) but doesn't overcome, means getting superiority or overwelm someone instead of simply destoying? Meaning He just forces His way of thinking on the one overwelmed.

"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Actually means:
"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with torment and hatred."
Make peace; send the nukes  :Shoot:

[Paul Hazelwood]

This is difficult, we have free-will in the habitation and boundary that we were setting in, but beyond that habitation and boundary, we have no power, no choice, only God.

If I may add, it becomes difficult because this freedom is not told to us so precisely in scripture it is interpreted.  I have to disagree that beyond the boundry we have no choice, because it will be God that causes those choices. It appears Saul made a free-will choice, but I suggest that the choice was the only possibility based upon how God designed Saul to react to "cause".

I do not see anything that prevents God from causing all choices.   If we equate choice to free, that is not accurate.  I do not see it so much as people that have a problem thinking about free will, it our will wants control when it really isn't there.

I think what may be over looked is that our will is also designed by God, no one else designed it.  He designed us each unique and each for a different purpose and we are designed to respond a certain way.  That responce will be a choice.

Paul understood this by knowing that he did things while knowing he shouldn't be doing them but he was doing them anyway. Like proverbs 16:9 says, our will can devise ways, and God knows all those ways,  but our choices are what get us somewhere, so if God directs our feet then the choices within some perceived boundry are our responces to Gods causes.

If God created the circumstances, then what prevents God from having designed our will to respond exactly how he intended for us to respond and our will allows us to be aware, learn and understand how God wants .

I will try not to argue with you over the word free, I just do not see that freedom in the same sense. So thats why I am writing more about the mechanism.   So to other readers if it's called free-will accuratly, so be it, I just do not perceive the mechanism of our will that way, sorry.   It is not about misunderstanding what it actually is, it is reasonable differences of opinion on how our will operates biblically.   

This lack of control is actually our freedom from  spiritually perishing.  God can cause all choices so as to be perfect in teaching us everything he intends to teach is and not having a will that is free is not bad, nor does it biblically make us robots and puppets as we think of them.



I believe you made the comment once that people could choose something that may cause them to die prematurely.  I would have to ask prematurely to what?   God had a different time for that person to die and the person chose something that God did not intend?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here's yet another extremely selfish response to the question

Why did God create man if He knew some would go to hell?

Actually we have to be cautious in responding that way.   This is an appeal to emotion,  it is to suggest that this loving God can be subject to our feelings on the matter.  I personally have been guilty of that and have realized that many Christians are hoping that question gets asked because you will get boxed into a corner very easily.

That is why it really is more important to make the biblical case for HELL not being eternal or "from now on".   A person can discuss "what" hell is apart from the length of time that one might be there.  The two are mutually exclusive.

If God defines Love, then who are we to make Gods love what love means to us?  We will not have any control over the truth of that.  Because as humans we can disagree on what Love actually is.


The truth is,  if God actually has created some of mankind to be in hell eternally, then what difference will it make if we like it or not?   

And actually a day would come where the tears in our eyes would be wiped away because we would understand what Gods loved means and that understanding would bring Joy.


Yes, that sounds rather twisted thinking we can have Joy while people are suffering, but like I said, removing the emotion and dilegently studying scripture and translations , hebrew and greek usage and the history of those languages  is the most productive way to battle that.

[Nathan]

Would it help if we then said . . .you can choose to be out of God's will . . .but you're never out of God's PLAN.??  You have the freedom to make all the personal choices you desire . .even ones that stunt your growth and affect your testimony to others, but no matter what choices you make, you'll always be forever "in" God's plan . . which is that every knee will bow . . .every tongue confess . . .

I'm curious now where our traditions came up with the idea that it's only during this short time on earth that we have the opportunity to make an eternal decision for life.  I thought this was the ONLY way to see truth . .but now that I understand UR . . . I can't remember what it was that convinced me of the traditional belief.

[Craig]

Would it help if we then said . . .you can choose to be out of God's will . . .but you're never out of God's PLAN.??  You have the freedom to make all the personal choices you desire . .even ones that stunt your growth and affect your testimony to others, but no matter what choices you make, you'll always be forever "in" God's plan . . which is that every knee will bow . . .every tongue confess . . .

It is a good way of putting it, but I don't know if it helps. There are people who believe that we were pre-scripted to act, behave, think and speak like we are and that we are not rational sentient beings, but clay animation set up by God.

I'm curious now where our traditions came up with the idea that it's only during this short time on earth that we have the opportunity to make an eternal decision for life.  I thought this was the ONLY way to see truth . .but now that I understand UR . . . I can't remember what it was that convinced me of the traditional belief.

I was reading some debates from 200 AD by a bunch of the early church father's. Some of the traditions they discussed at length, really have nothing to do with Christianity today but in their day it was somehow important. Like if eating meat sacrificed to the Roman gods, was acceptable practice among Christians. When I decided to read what eating meat sacrificed to gods meant to these guys, it is similar to the practice that Jews and Muslims do concerning their meat, draining it of all blood and praying over it. So is it acceptable for a Christian to eat ceremoniously clean foods prepared by Jews or Muslims? They came up with really crazy problems which could come out of doing so, that absolutely don't have any relevance to Christianity at all.

[WhiteWings]

Here's yet another extremely selfish response to the question

Why did God create man if He knew some would go to hell?

Actually we have to be cautious in responding that way.   This is an appeal to emotion,  it is to suggest that this loving God can be subject to our feelings on the matter.  I personally have been guilty of that and have realized that many Christians are hoping that question gets asked because you will get boxed into a corner very easily.

I understand what you wrote Paul. I even agree with it. But I think it's an incomplete truth. The Bible is partly about direct worship of God. But also partly about kind behavior toward fellow humans. And by that you inderectly worship God too.
Jesus thaught it was ok to save a goat from drowning on Sabbath. Only goats? Or also humans and other animals?
Personally I believe Jesus was talking about saving every living creature from drowning. Is that extra-Biblical?
God made it clear He's against sex with animals. Would you even bother to reply if I would say in Hell God forces us to have sex with animals? Do you think there is a possibility that God has sex with animals? I guess not. But why? Can you point me to a verse that states God doesn't do that? I think you can't. But indirectly it's very clear God wouldn't even consider that. So if God keeps going on and on about love to everything on this planet can't we conclude from that that God won't torture? IMHO the Bible is about learning a peaceful state of mind. Not a competition on stating verses.

I hope the above makes sense to at least 1 person  :laughing7:

[Craig]

You make sense. That is the two commandments: "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself." So many people get so caught up in the first commandment that they neglect the second commandment.

[martincisneros]

You make sense. That is the two commandments: "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself." So many people get so caught up in the first commandment that they neglect the second commandment.

Or they'll consider the first as their moral obligation to break the second one.

[Craig]

hence neglecting the second.

[WhiteWings]

Indeed Craig.

Someone could argue God is better/greater/etc/etc so love towards Him overrules the one toward humans.
But both are equal. Not meaning God is equal to humans. But both rules are equally important because both are from God. Like I wrote elsewhere if someone has problems combining two verses they should rethink their doctrine because they are accusing God of inperfect writing.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi, Whitewings


I can't disagree with most of what you wrote on what we should try to find in the bible, but what I am saying is that the emotional point does not define truth. Sure as we learn and grow we understand that there is more than memorizing, comparing and listing scripture.

However, learning to believe that scripture depicts a God who will not allow anyone to be in hell does need some level of scriptural knowledge.  When you have that knowledge you do not have to play with people who pull out the emotion card about Gods righteousness.


Once you enter the emotional arena, if you do not have the necessary scripture, you cannot really say that eternity in hell is unjust.    Love they neighbor as thyself.   This really has no bearing on the hell argument because Christians divide the bible between  "unbelievers"  and those who choose of their own free-will to believe.

So my post has to do with the counter arguments towards the way Christians divide and interpret the bible,  not how we as universalists may discuss the love of God which typically is different than the way ETers will view it.

They will say that the love thy neighbor as thyself only applies to believers and unbelievers are refusing God so God loves them, but the unbeliever must "choose" that love to be a part of Gods plan, and for that reason hell is just.

I hope that helps understand where I was coming from better.

[Craig]

I agree emotional appeals are not reasons for anything. Appeals to Emotion for the truth are as appeals to imagination for the truth. They are not reliable or accurate even if there are elements of truth in emotion and imagination.