Hebrews 12:29 - PUR

[WhiteWings]

Yes, just coincidence.  :laughing7:

What about the Catholic PURgatory? I know it's seen as unbiblical by many; but I think it's the biggest mainstream church that has a concept of a purifying fire. (=UR)

[Nathan]

I see that as similar but not the same.  If I'm correct, they believe your prayers will shorten the time of the individual's stay . .and the place they're in, the holding tank, so to speak, is not one of pain and suffering, but just a waiting place, a pleasant waiting place that you're in before going to heaven.

I see the lake of fire . . .as a place that is as unpleasant as it is complete.  But if it's instantaneous as some imply, then pain may not be a factor . . .but for me, the baptism of fire that we go through now, is nothing like the baptism of spirit.  One is of great power and release, whereas the other is of much personal sacrifice and tribulation of our ego as it becomes a captive to our spirit.  Kind of like a breaking of a mindset . . .in most cases, it doesn't just happen in a couple minutes and then you're different.  Many mind-controling issues become that way over the course of time . .it becomes a deep part of our nature and as we humble ourselves and let the spirit of the Lord do the deep cleaning . . .it's not a comfortable place to be in . . .our ego is always wanting to control and understand . . .but in the spirit realm, it's all about faith and freedom.

[WhiteWings]

I, my parents have a Catholic background. No hell and damnation preachers BTW.
But I, well I got infant baptism, did communion. Am I a Catholic? By tradition at best.
Yes prayers make the suffering less bad. Also for the dead. In the dark ages you could 'buy time' from a church person so he would pray for your salvation. His prof. prayers are listened to better by God. Just linining their pagan pockets IMO. Purgatory as I know it has real flames. Not as hot as the real deal and there is a way out.
Even some story of a ladder that you can sneak out without God noticing. Knowing the pope you probly have to sell your soul for that ladder... I want to make clear this is not an attach against Catholists on this board. But more against it's (IMO) corrupt leaders.
"baptism of fire that we go through now" you mean we live in hell right now? People in Africa that starve to death. Could be seen as Hell. But the hell of the rothschilds of this world is quite plesant...

[Michele]

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

It is interesting that First comes water, but beyond this there is an even greater baptism awaiting us....Christ baptizes us with His Spirit of Fire.  His Spirit of Fire/Love is breathed into us......and we become an all consuming Fire just like Him....

[WhiteWings]

What exactly are you saying SG?

The HS won't come to you if you aren't baptized first?
I'm kinda confused on the topic of baptism. But I think it's a subject not to be discussed here because it has nothing to do with UR. ?

[Nathan]

Actually, the baptism topic is one of the several listed in Hebrews six when dealing with the milk versus meat of the Word.  In the days of labor, being spirit baptized was one of the highest priorities of the pentecostal and Charismatic churches.  It was their meat . . .but now, we're finding it's not the depth of truth at all . . .I don't want to take away from it's importance . . . I pray and sing in words my mind doesn't understand also . . . the baptism part is not about following a ritual as communion has also fallen into that same bucket.  But it's really  . .the water part, is an outward proclamation of what has already happened inwardly.

The spirit baptism is different in that it's what I'd consider to be your 2nd dimension experience . .it's an equipping of power to be a witness.  We've always attached it with talking in "tongues".  I think there still may be "some" truth to that . .but I see many people react to our "revelating" in the same manner as one would if they'd heard you speak a foreign language in the middle of a church service.

Zechariah 4 is really a perch of mine . . . it speaks about the tabernacle, but not Moses and not Solomon's . . .but the "true" tabernacle the others were patterned after.  In this place, there is a picture of your lampstand with the bowls filled with oil, but the difference here is, there are golden pipes that are connected to the lampstand and to two trees through which the oil is constantly flowing . . .in my eyes, this is the completed temple . . .with no required labor of man.  The prophecy of God in Genesis 6 about no longer striving with man . . .has come to pass.

He stated there that from then on, man would only live to be 120 years . . but yet, there is only one person that I know of, who lived to be 120 when he died . .and that was Moses.  Moses is patterned after the law as he's the one God used to establish it in a nation.  Law is connected to labor.  This is really a very telling key in how God views time.  He measures it according to the SON.  Jesus is the Sabbath . . .the first year following the end of 7 sabbath years . . .a sabbath year came every 7 years, same as a Sabbath day . . .so after 49 years, the 50th year, everything would be returned back to the original owner.  It was a year of restoration for the nation of Israel.

If you take 120 and multiply it by a Sabbath year . . .50, you'll come to the end of the labor of man . . .6,000 . . .it's been 6,000 years from Adam to now . . .generally . . .there's a year or two give or take when comparing Jewish calendars with ours, but regardless it doesn't take away from where we are right now . ..the striving with God has come to an end and we've been called into the place of rest . .Sabbath rest.  It's not an act, it's a person.  So . . .if you come into rest, you also come into the baptism of truth.

In just a couple verses in Zechariah after this picture is reveal, it was delcared that upon this mountain . . .the cry "Grace, Grace" is being trumpeted . . .it's the message of all who are UR .  .and will soon be the cry of every denomination that let's God transform their thinking.

[Nathan]

Zechariah 4
1And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
7Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

What does this have to do with the baptism of fire?  For me, if you can't see the realm of rest in this passage, you can't hear the message of grace is now being decreed and proclaimed.  The "reason" one "can" and "does" enter into this realm is because they "have" been baptized by fire . . the carnal belief systems are being burned away from us . . .our minds  . .or our egos put up a defense . . .the fire of purity clashes with the logic of man and this is where you get your thunderings from . .and earthquakes.  God's realm is beginning to manifest in ours, creating a change of atmosphere within us.

It still boggles my mind to see that through these forums, I've found there are people out there that have been in this for decades . . . even now, it's exciting and lonely at the same time.  Being "under" a denomination, I don't know what it feels like for many of you who are not bound by doctrinal orgainizations.  I know, I can easily step down but there are two things that are holding me back from that . .one is . . .I have a wife and four children . .two are teenagers, two are twin toddlers.  The house we live in is the church's . .if I step down, we become homeless. 

But I've already counted the cost on that one early on when I began to realize my message has become one of denominational heresy.  The other thing holding me back is my purpose for being where I am.  I don't think God has finished his purpose with me at the moment, so until he releases me, I'm staying. 

I'm just saying . . as much as we do have freedom in the house on any given service . . .there is still this cloud of wonderment of what my superiors would do if I tried to extend this freedom message to them . . .I have an overnight reservation with our district pastors in a couple weeks . . .they're wanting each of us to share . .good grief . . . you guys know how this works . . .once you start . . . things take on a life of their own and the next thing you know, your whole field is on fire.

Either way, I love where God has me . . . I wouldn't change a thing.

[WhiteWings]

He stated there that from then on, man would only live to be 120 years . . but yet, there is only one person that I know of, who lived to be 120 when he died . .and that was Moses. 

Even today people live to that age I think. But they are always 'worldnews'. You know oldest man/woman articles.
IIRC blood is constantly renewed. Such a regeneration cycle of all blood takes some time and has a max. of regenerations.
Total 120 years.

[Taffy]

It still boggles my mind to see that through these forums, I've found there are people out there that have been in this for decades . . . even now, it's exciting and lonely at the same time.  Being "under" a denomination, I don't know what it feels like for many of you who are not bound by doctrinal orgainizations.  I know, I can easily step down but there are two things that are holding me back from that . .one is . . .I have a wife and four children . .two are teenagers, two are twin toddlers.  The house we live in is the church's . .if I step down, we become homeless. 

But I've already counted the cost on that one early on when I began to realize my message has become one of denominational heresy.  The other thing holding me back is my purpose for being where I am.  I don't think God has finished his purpose with me at the moment, so until he releases me, I'm staying. 

I'm just saying . . as much as we do have freedom in the house on any given service . . .there is still this cloud of wonderment of what my superiors would do if I tried to extend this freedom message to them . . .I have an overnight reservation with our district pastors in a couple weeks . . .they're wanting each of us to share . .good grief . . . you guys know how this works . . .once you start . . . things take on a life of their own and the next thing you know, your whole field is on fire.

Either way, I love where God has me . . . I wouldn't change a thing. 

Hi Nathan
again Bro, thanks for sharin some.

you are where you are because for now thats where your to be..dont sweat it.....heha..and ive sure been to that place where your whole eild on fire..but that was some 14 yrs back bud.

Ill be thinking of you and yours

Blessings
T

[Michele]

What exactly are you saying SG?

The HS won't come to you if you aren't baptized first?
I'm kinda confused on the topic of baptism. But I think it's a subject not to be discussed here because it has nothing to do with UR. ?

Thanks for your reply WhiteWings......IMHO water baptism has everything to do with UR.  It is a symbol of our Spiritual death burial and resurrection in Him.  To be born of water is the beginning.......but to be born of the Spirit/Fire is the ultimate reconciliation.......it is the end.  He gives us His Spirit with Fire.......it is much the same as how the union of Fire and Sand (dust of the earth) make Glass.  Glass must be "Clean" in order for His light to shine through. 

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:12)

[WhiteWings]

But Baptism is also part of ET. So what I was actually trying to say it has nothing to do with how UR differs from ET.
Isn't that what this site is about. At least that is what I understood from Martin when he occasionally states that this board has be cut down in size by request of Gary.

StainedGlass....  sure you get clean someday  :thumbsup:

But since the topic is allowed I'll ask my question.
I was born Catholic. I had infant baptism. Two drops of water on my forehead. After that I was 2 times in curch as a figure of speech.
Does that count as baptism. Firstly there was no commitment from my side. I see it no more as a thanks from my parents toward God. (or just social pressure)
And sprinkling doesn't even look like a water grave.

Is it an insult to God when you get baptised when you are not really commited. You know "If it doesn't work it won't harm either."

[Nathan]

As a pastor, I've had a couple people from time to time come and ask if I would sprinkle or bless their babies . . .there was a time when I would almost smirk at the idea and explain to them no way no how.  But now, I still explain to them the meaning of what water baptism is, and like you say, it does require the participant to not only have a say, but have an experience, and in most cases, once you explain that to them . .they give you a look like . . ."you're kidding!  Why didn't anyone tell us this!"  And then they've changed their minds about it.  I also have told them if they would like us to do a baby dedication, it's about the same thing to us . . .it's just the church family testifying they receive the new life into their family as God's gift to all of us kind of thing.

Having said that . . .I'm not against the sprinkling either, if the parents or grandparents insist, I'm learning that to be effective in being Christ to others, that also sometimes means that my beliefs really aren't as important as letting these people feel the warmth of God's grace on them.  So . . .bring on the baby . .we'll baptize it for ya, the church knows there's no actual baptism happening, but they also know that if we say no, the people will become offended and we've lost our opportunity to be Christ to someone.

The flesh will still wrestle with this sometimes . . . which may be why I like to watch shows like "ultimate fighter" on tv . . .teaches me how to use submission holds on my head. :bgdance:

[Taffy]

.teaches me how to use submission holds on my head.

:mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo: :LH:

[WhiteWings]

Okay you are going to need to slow down. There are fires that have nothing to do with purification, but were symbols of God's wrath, or judgment.

I guess this verse qualifies as wrath:
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Strong:
1614 tyrIp.G" gophriyth {gof-reeth'}
Meaning:  1) brimstone 1a) of judgment (fig.) 1b) of Jehovah's breath (fig.)

This verse is about purification:
Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
2303 qei/on theion {thi'-on}
Meaning:  1) brimstone 1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease

I'm aware the topic was fire and not brimstone; but because fire and brimstone so often appear together I used brimstone to link fire.
So reading the Englisg translation the red word seem to say that judgement=purification.
The blue word reminds me of Genesis 2:7 about the breath of life.
Can the same breath be destructive and life giving?

Back to brimstone.
I'm well aware brimstone is translated from 2 different words. Hebrew and Greek. Do they have exactly the same meaning?
Does the meaning of brimstone vary between Greek and Hebrew?
I would like some explanation/thoughts on that.
1614 tyrIp.G" gophriyth {gof-reeth'}
2303 qei/on theion {thi'-on}

[rosered]

 

  I love it , Thanks Whitewings , for this thread  , I am finally starting to ''getit '' a few things anyways
  now to just be able to   type  a simple thought  lol  without being   all over the place lol
I  have been so close to  knowing  what the Lake of Fire is  , within my heart an excitment of  bing , the light went on

  and here is what  drew me so close  in an in depth study one day 
I saw that the angels [ messengers ]  of God  sent  to  teach , preach  speak the very Words of God  and the   Lord made them   flames of fire [pur]   or not these being the messengers angels/ spirits of satan adversity 
and  with a few verses   show that the Lake is NOW   burning as many gather   for or against the LORDS WILL / DESIRE


Psa 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire. 

  That garment in psalms is Jesus Christ / blood covering from the foundation of the world , just very well hidden  till the Time / Cross 
but was  always in effect      Gods Grace is  and was  always
here in Hebrews   its proven lol ..

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
[Who] laid the foundations of the earth, [that] it should not be removed for ever.But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
  the place that  really made me  think and dig in is when Peter    went a warmed himself by the fire !!     big clue  in that  little piece  .

now  of the Fire of adversity /wrath  anger  etc .. was showing  the  tongue as the little member that Kindles  the course of hell , this was the time Peter  was denying Christ !     Him being sifted like wheat by satan /adversary ........
I put them  descriptions  down below  for refernces to'' kindle'' ,   to fasten to  /to'' join in with'' to me  for more descriptive understanding , gettin it lol
  so I see that Gods wrath does still abide/ dwell in the disobedient   contrary , and  them not even knowing/gettin it !   anger  wrath  verses/sides with  or   love grace kindness etc..

Pro 26:21 [As] coals [are] to burning coals, and wood to fire; so [is] a contentious man to kindle strife.

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke. 
  men are as trees  [ to  they are symbolic of   either the tree of knowledge of good and evil  [both within] or the tree of life  that is a FIRE /PURITY LIGHT KNOWLDGE OF GOD     , GOD IS A COMSUMING FIRE

Isa 10:16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire. Isa 30:33 For Tophet[meaning Tophet or Topheth = "place of fire"!!the same as 8611 .topheth
.1) act of spitting, spit

1) a place in the southeast end of the valley of the son of Hinnom south of Jerusalem. Same as 08613
WORLDLY  Tophet: a drum; betraying

] [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

  to me this place/worldly  below  the  burning  is still going on .......
and can be  concidered  a very good or bad thing , just depending on ones thinking  of it
  Isaiah  speaks of who can  dwell in the continual burnings ? firey trials ? maybe   Peter said dont think it strange  to go through them
  I see them as  metaphorically  speaking  our  constant times of  enduring or overcoming  or even failing the Fire /trials  of faith bro !

Mar 14:54 And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.



Luk 22:55 And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were set down together, Peter sat down among them.

a heated discussion to me / not so  much a literal fire  lol   but so many see it as literal still that carnal mind is all they got  to think with  ya know ! till the Lord comes to them and changes/working with  them  to  become spiritual beings

Jhn 18:18 And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself. Kindle1  Strong's Number: 681 Greek: hapto
properly, "to fasten to," is used in Act 28:2 (in the most authentic mss., some mss. have No. 3), of "kindling a fire." See No. 2. Note: Hapto is used of "lighting a lamp," in Luk 8:16; 11:33; 15:8. For the Middle Voice see TOUCH. 2  Strong's Number: 4012 681 Greek: periapto
properly, "to tie about, attach" (peri, "around," and No. 1), is used of "lighting" a fire in the midst of a court in Luk 22:55 (some mss. have No. 1). 3  Strong's Number: 381 Greek: anapto
"to light up" (ana, "up," and No. 1), is used (a) literally, in Jam 3:5, "kindleth;" (b) metaphorically, in the Passive Voice, in Luk 12:49, of the "kindling" of the fire of hostility; see FIRE, A (f). For Act 28:2, see No. 1, above.

I so hope this was not to confusing or scattered all over the place 
I try , but  I  still fail  at explaining  what I am trying to say 
God help :(

[WhiteWings]

Hi my favorite house!  :reachout:
(the house wasn't really evil. It was sick of adultary..)

I love it , Thanks Whitewings , for this thread  , I am finally starting to "getit " a few things anyways
  now to just be able to   type  a simple thought  lol  without being   all over the place lol
I  have been so close to  knowing  what the Lake of Fire is  , within my heart an excitment of  bing , the light went on

Same here. If you aren't already doing that I would advise you to look up the meaning of the key words. It helped me a lot understanding things. And especially linking verses. Far from perfect. But it feels like a start.

Psa 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.

Dividing His angels?

3852 hb'h'l, lehabah {leh-aw-baw'} or tb,h,l; lahebeth {lah-eh'-beth}
Meaning:  1) flame 2) tip of weapon, point, head of spear

Perhaps to far fetched but I think 'spear head(ing)' is a military term for a certain tactic breaking enemy lines.
And there is some sort of war between good (spear) and evil (enemy lines)
The angels are the weapons of God.

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
[Who] laid the foundations of the earth, [that] it should not be removed for ever.But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
  the place that  really made me  think and dig in is when Peter    went a warmed himself by the fire !!     big clue  in that  little piece  .

Can you give me the verse about warming by the fire Rose?

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke. 
  men are as trees  [ to  they are symbolic of   either the tree of knowledge of good and evil  [both within] or the tree of life  that is a FIRE /PURITY LIGHT KNOWLDGE OF GOD     , GOD IS A COMSUMING FIRE

I read it slightly different.
An example. PURe coincidence of names.... :laughing7:
If a rose is thrown in the fire only the thorns (evil) is burned.
The beautiful flower (good) is preserved.
briers, thorns and thickets are all bad things in the forrest (good) of God.
Genesis 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Thorns are part of the curse(d earth)
So simply put the fire burn, purifies, cleans away the bad elements and leaves the sinles part untouched.

I so hope this was not to confusing or scattered all over the place 
I try , but  I  still fail  at explaining  what I am trying to say 

Sometime it's hard for a theacher to reach down to the :dsunny: student

[WhiteWings]

I  have been so close to  knowing  what the Lake of Fire is

There are whole sites on that topic but here is what I 'collected'
Some of the verses are a shortend. Every verse is about God. My conclusion is that the lake of fire is God.
The devine washing machine.

Fire breaks down complex elements (religion/doctrines) to the most basic elements (childlike faith)
Purifying.
Genesis 15:17  ....  behold a smoking furnace (God), and a burning lamp (God) that passed between those pieces (cut up sacrificial animals).
Deuteronomy 4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Ezekiel 1:27  And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, ....  saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about ....
Psalm 104:4  Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Hebrews 1:7  And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Isaiah 4:4  .... and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isaiah 4:5  ....  a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
Malachi 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Acts 7:30  And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
Judges 6:21  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
1 Chronicles 21:26  And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.
2 Kings 6:17  And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Psalm 18:8  There went up a smoke out of his (God) nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
Matthew 3:11  .... whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mark 9:49 - 10:1  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
1 Corinthians 3:13  .... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Romans 12:20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him (=love); if he thirst, give him drink (=love): for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire (=love) on his head.
1 Peter 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
James 3:5  Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

[rosered]

 
  Hi WW , 
Isis put them verses about peter warming himself by the fire 
Mar 14:54 And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.


Luk 22:55 And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were set down together, Peter sat down among them.

a heated discussion to me / not so  much a literal fire  lol   

   so glad you get me  WW!   I was not going to say a thing lol,

  great verses about the fires  amen! 
and I have looked into the  greek and hebrew   and the strongs  etc , and your so right it does make a difference  :happygrin:
  God love ya ! rose