Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
I can't find any direct links in either the Bible or commentaries but perhaps someone can explain. :thumbsup:
Fire is Pur in Greek.
There are a lot of English words using pur.
PURe, PURify, PURge, etc
Is it a coincidence that all those words mean 'cleaning'?
The verse is in a way saying God is a cleaner (of sins)
So although pur simply translates into fire my question is if there is some 'hidden link' to 'cleaning'?
Afteral those 'pur words' aren't just random letter that happen to spell pur.
If yes, then the verse would get a (even stronger) UR meaning.
Yes, just coincidence. :laughing7: There is two ways to be made clean in Scripture, technically three. Water, Blood and Fire, they are not the same and fire is always the last resort and involves destruction. If after seven days, you are clean, then you do not need fire; but after the seven days and you are still not clean, your garments are destroyed in fire and you must stay outside the camp of the Lord until the priests declare you are clean.
Revelation 7:15; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:8
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Fire is not just for purification and cleaning, it is used to keep warm in the cold and a light in the darkness, most modern day Christians (and a good handful of Universalists) over look this and continue to believe that both believer and unbeliever go through a purifying fire. So when Jesus said we are salted with fire, does not mean we are being cleansed by it this fire, it means we are being ignited by it to be a light in the darkness. The fire of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentacost, were tongues of fire resting on their head, not consuming their body.
Since the second death is the Lake of Fire, and it has no power over those who trust in the Lord, that means it has no power to do anything. The fire cannot cleanse, hurt or destroy you because it has no power over you. So how is one in Christ cleansed? They are cleansed by the water and the blood.
Quote from: SOtW on August 19, 2008, 04:21:14 PM
Yes, just coincidence. :laughing7:
Pitty pitty....
Could have the words where somehow derived from the Greek.
Anyway it was after reading this article that I got the idea.
http://www.godfire.net/VoiceofSon66.html
Quote from: Anna on August 19, 2008, 05:19:03 PM
Craig ... "cleansed by water and blood"
I've always been curious about several verses and have been attempting to connect them into a meaningful and, of course, a Scriptural truth. Can you help?
1John 5:7-8
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
and
Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word
Colossians 1: 20
And by Him ro reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Thanks.
Anna
For mine,,, Anna.
The Church was BORN through the spilling of HIS BLOOD and WATER on the Cross..cleansing US OF SIN..., thus ,enabling HIS CHURCH to be BORN of Spirit..The SPIRIT OF TRUTH...the THREE bearing witness of HIM """"in""""the EARTH, meaning within us.
Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth
Hbr 9:1-28 shows us the first Covenant and the PATTERNS which FOLLOW
The regulations of the Law concerning ceremoniously clean, actually clean, ceremoniously unclean, and actually unclean, are found particularly in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
There is two ways of cleansing, technically three. Water, Fire and Blood. The reason I say technically is that two ways of cleansing apply to the same thing, while the third is completely different. In order not to be complicated, I will simplify and generalize.
If a thing is unclean, water is used to cleanse it. If that thing is clean after being washed by water, then that thing is clean. If that thing remains unclean even after being washed by water, then it is cleansed again but this time the detergent changes from water to fire.
Fire is the last resort for the things which have not been cleansed by water because it cleanses not by washing but destruction.
Here is the propositions:
1) Not every thing is cleansed by water, some things are cleansed by fire.
2) Not every thing is cleansed by fire, some things are cleansed by water.
In regards to the third, blood, it is used differently. Blood cleanses through propitiation, not direct washing, it is substitutionary atonement. It cleanses both the past and future generations of guilt and sin depending on the priest who presents it by faith.
Here is the propositions:
1) Every thing is cleansed by blood.
Remember this is a simplified generalization of the three cleansing agents. The thing I need everyone to understand is that fire is reserved only for the thing that persists to remain unclean and not every thing persists to remain unclean.
Applying this to the New Testament, people begin to confuse cause and effect and just make hasty generalizations and confuse how each things is applied in a spiritual sense. Jesus is the High Priest. Jesus is the Water. Jesus is the Blood. Jesus baptizes with Spirit. Jesus baptizes with Fire. etc.
Quote from: SOtW on August 19, 2008, 06:45:24 PM
The regulations of the Law concerning ceremoniously clean, actually clean, ceremoniously unclean, and actually unclean, are found particularly in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
There is two ways of cleansing, technically three. Water, Fire and Blood. The reason I say technically is that two ways of cleansing apply to the same thing, while the third is completely different. In order not to be complicated, I will simplify and generalize.
If a thing is unclean, water is used to cleanse it. If that thing is clean after being washed by water, then that thing is clean. If that thing remains unclean even after being washed by water, then it is cleansed again but this time the detergent changes from water to fire.
Fire is the last resort for the things which have not been cleansed by water because it cleanses not by washing but destruction.
Here is the propositions:
1) Not every thing is cleansed by water, some things are cleansed by fire.
2) Not every thing is cleansed by fire, some things are cleansed by water.
In regards to the third, blood, it is used differently. Blood cleanses through propitiation, not direct washing, it is substitutionary atonement. It cleanses both the past and future generations of guilt and sin depending on the priest who presents it by faith.
Here is the propositions:
1) Every thing is cleansed by blood.
Remember this is a simplified generalization of the three cleansing agents. The thing I need everyone to understand is that fire is reserved only for the thing that persists to remain unclean. Not everything persists to remain unclean.
:icon_flower:
But EVERY THING IS CLEANSED :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:..cool egh!
Craig I like your ability to explain things in simple terms :thumbsup:
Somewhere I read that fire and brimstone was used to (symbolically) purify temples.
QuoteRemember this is a simplified generalization of the three cleansing agents. The thing I need everyone to understand is that fire is reserved only for the thing that persists to remain unclean. Not everything persists to remain unclean.
Does that also apply to the afterlife? So for some hell is being cleaned by water and for other fire is used?
QuoteBut EVERY THING IS CLEANSED :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:..cool egh!
Don't be to shure of that Taffy. I don't know about you but I start to sweat near a fire. So I stay dirty.
Maybe we stop sweating if we are extra crispy :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2008, 06:59:08 PM
QuoteBut EVERY THING IS CLEANSED :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:..cool egh!
Don't be to shure of that Taffy. I don't know about you but I start to sweat near a fire. So I stay dirty.
Maybe we stop sweating if we are extra crispy :laughing7:
he ha WW.... :icon_flower: nothing like GOOD sauna to clean out the impurites matey, :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2008, 06:56:33 PM
Craig I like your ability to explain things in simple terms :thumbsup:
Somewhere I read that fire and brimstone was used to (symbolically) purify temples.
Scripture, both New and Old Testament, actually say that everything is purified by blood.
Hebrews 9:21-22a And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood and according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood...
I do not find anywhere in Scripture that the Temple was purified by fire except when the Israel rejected God, that is when the Temple was rejected by God, and it was destroyed by fire.
Brimstone was used because it symbolically represents blood and water. In it's solid state it is gold, in it's liquid state it is blood red, and in it's gaseous state it is ocean blue. In order for brimstone to appear as blood and water, the two purifying agents cleansed, it is needed to be revealed by fire. (Exodus 3:2; Ezekiel 1:13; 1 Corinthians 3:13, 2 Thessalonian 1:7)
It wasn't a Bible quote Craig. Just something I've read in some Christian article/book.
I googled a bit and found a article you might like. Or not :winkgrin:
QuoteThe "lake of fire and brimstone" into which Death and Hades is placed, in the Greek would be grammatically correct to translate as the "lake of fire and divinity", or even "the lake of divine fire".
Quote.It is interesting to examine the Greek word for "divine", it is from the Greek "theion", which could also mean "divine being", but also means "sulfur', or in Old English "brimstone"
QuoteClearly, this "burning stone" was a divine substance, and as such, it was simply called "divinity. It was burned within a new temple to "purify" it before consecration, presumably when this burning stone released it's divinity, it causes all evil things to flee from the temple, and thus was the temple readied for worship.Yet the word 'theion' is translated as "brimstone" or "sulfur" in Luke 17:29, Rev. 9:17, 14:10, 20:10, 21:8, which is where 'fire and brimstone' comes out of heaven, but it is equally interchange with the words "divine fire".
http://www.forumishqiptar.com/archive/index.php/t-34272.html
QuoteOnce the fire of Christ came, and that age ended (at the siege of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.) the fire in the temple ceased to bum, as did the flames in the Valley of Hinnom.
http://www.angelfire.com/nm/ThePathfinder/66Brimstone.html
Is there a deeper meaning in the above?
Hinnom is closely related to hell. And it stopped burning.
Okay you are going to need to slow down. There are fires that have nothing to do with purification, but were symbols of God's wrath, or judgment. The Jews also had extra-Levitical practices, which are not found in the Law of God given to Israel. So, not everything the Jews did and believed were commandments given to them by God to do and believe. That is why Jesus called them children of the devil and serpents.
There is the alter of incense, in which they burned brimstone (it was considered fragrant). This was not for purification, but was symbolic of the intercession, prayers on behalf of those who were atoned or going through atonement. The incense was to burn perpetually to represent the perpetual intercession between God and men. So although identified in the purification process, it is not the purification process.
QuoteOnce the fire of Christ came, and that age ended (at the siege of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.) the fire in the temple ceased to burn, as did the flames in the Valley of Hinnom.
Well, that is because Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple were destroyed. So everything from the temple to the Valley of Hinnom were no more. This is because the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple is called the Judgment of Gehenna. This judgment was executed, just like Jesus said to the Pharisee in Matthew 23 to this generation.
Why did the fire go out of the Temple? God had not been in the Temple since 33 AD, when the presence of God left and the curtain was torn from top to bottom. The perpetual flame died that day and the fire in the Temple of foreign. The destruction of the Temple began in 33 AD and without God to protect it, the Temple was destroyed in 70AD just as Jesus had warned would happen to that generation.
Why did the fire go out in the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna)? Because the fire lit by King Josiah originally to remind Israel of the impending judgment which was coming because of their disobedience and unfaithfulness to God. With the judgment of Gehenna, as prophesied by Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah began in 0 AD at the birth of Christ and ended in 70 AD at the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple, there was no reason or need for a reminder of the impending judgment since it had ended.
P.S. The judgment actually started with birth of Jesus and John the Baptist and so the Tribulation of Israel actually occurred though a 70 year period, Israel, Jerusalem were desolate for 70 years as Scripture said it would be. The first 35 years the birth to the death/resurrection of Jesus Christ and the last 35 years to the destruction of Israel in full by Rome. Break the "Seven Years of Tribulation" and mirror it to the birth of Jesus, death/resurrection of Jesus and the destruction of Israel/Jerusalem/Temple. What you will see is not a coincidence.
Quote from: SOtW on August 19, 2008, 08:36:43 PM
Okay you are going to need to slow down. There are fires that have nothing to do with purification, but were symbols of God's wrath, or judgment. The Jews also had extra-Levitical practices, which are not found in the Law of God given to Israel. So, not everything the Jews did and believed were commandments given to them by God to do and believe. That is why Jesus called them children of the devil and serpents.
There is the alter of incense, in which they burned brimstone (it was considered fragrant). This was not for purification, but was symbolic of the intercession, prayers on behalf of those who were atoned or going through atonement. The incense was to burn perpetually to represent the perpetual intercession between God and men. So although identified in the purification process, it is not the purification process.
QuoteOnce the fire of Christ came, and that age ended (at the siege of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.) the fire in the temple ceased to burn, as did the flames in the Valley of Hinnom.
Well, that is because Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple were destroyed. So everything from the temple to the Valley of Hinnom were no more. This is because the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple is called the Judgment of Gehenna. This judgment was executed, just like Jesus said to the Pharisee in Matthew 23 to this generation.
Why did the fire go out of the Temple? God had not been in the Temple since 33 AD, when the presence of God left and the curtain was torn from top to bottom. The perpetual flame died that day and the fire in the Temple of foreign. The destruction of the Temple began in 33 AD and without God to protect it, the Temple was destroyed in 70AD just as Jesus had warned would happen to that generation.
Why did the fire go out in the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna)? Because the fire lit by King Josiah originally to remind Israel of the impending judgment which was coming because of their disobedience and unfaithfulness to God. With the judgment of Gehenna, as prophesied by Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah began in 0 AD at the birth of Christ and ended in 70 AD at the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple, there was no reason or need for a reminder of the impending judgment since it had ended.
P.S. The judgment actually started with birth of Jesus and John the Baptist and so the Tribulation of Israel actually occurred though a 70 year period, Israel, Jerusalem were desolate for 70 years as Scripture said it would be. The first 35 years the birth to the death/resurrection of Jesus Christ and the last 35 years to the destruction of Israel in full by Rome. Break the "Seven Years of Tribulation" and mirror it to the birth of Jesus, death/resurrection of Jesus and the destruction of Israel/Jerusalem/Temple. What you will see is not a coincidence.
Hi Craig,
so are you partial preterist in thinking/belief??
The book of Esther talks about the "days" of PUR.
Toward the last of the book. I study a lot from KJV
and there is reference in the center column that PUR
means LOT. I know that LOT means w/o man's choice
or will, and has to do with our INHERITANCE. Perhaps
this bit of info will fill in for some of your studying.
Blessings.
Quoteso are you partial preterist in thinking/belief??
I believe what was and is and is to come. :cloud9:
Quote from: SOtW on August 19, 2008, 11:24:10 PM
Quoteso are you partial preterist in thinking/belief??
I believe what was and is and is to come. :cloud9:
So i'm trying to put together your thoughts on gehenna and "now". do you see gehenna as "is and is to come" too? if i'm sidetracking the thread, u can pm me too. thanks
Yes and No.
Gehenna was the judgment that cut Israel off because of their unbelief and the Gentiles grafted in. Paul warns that if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare the wild ones grafted in, should they do as Israel did.
Romans 11:17-21
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Don't worry about sidetracking the thread Laren.
I got my answer (unless other have something to add)
For me everything is new so every discussion is a learning point.
:banana: :banana: :banana: :friendstu: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Romans 11:17-21
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either
I'm seeing this a little differently. I don't know that I could attach this to the destruction of Israel due to the fact that this was written before the destruction took place. For me, it also fits in with another difference I see with the take of the 70 weeks of Daniel implied also in an earlier post. The idea the the 70th week is dealing with a 70 year period of time sort of goes against the previous 69 weeks in that they are weaks of years . . not weeks of decades.
The 70 weeks of Daniel . . .to me . . .were actually 490 years where there was a great deal of preparation for the Jews to birth Christ as a nation, and accept Christ as their redeemer. When Jesus came . . .originally, his message was to Jews only. The coming of Jesus to the nation of Israel was an exclamation point of the 70 weeks. Jesus came in the last week of those set aside for Israel. Not in the middle as you propose. I see his ministry . . . which lasted 3 and 1/2 years . . .to be the back half of the last week of the 70 set aside. The turning point came when the first martyred soul took place.
Everything is in patterns. Everything that is said, spoken, even body language. The opening verses in Matthew 24 Jesus body actions were specifically recorded for a purpose. It states there that Jesus "left the temple". He disconnected himself from the religious. The disciples . . .still feeling their flesh sting from the rebuke Jesus just belted the Pharisees with in the previous chapter, they tried to soften things up by getting Jesus to admire the buildings, the work, the dedication required for such impressive structures to be errected. Jesus would have none of it . . .not one stone would be left on top of the other . . . Jesus left the temple behind.
Just as that was a huge key, so is the key of whether one is standing, or when one is sitting. Note when this next verse was recorded. . .
Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
When did this happen? At the resurrection. Jesus passed back from natural into the spirit realm where he took his position of rest. Right? Okay . . somewhere between there and the stoning of Stephen, something changes . . .because . .well, you read it.
Acts 7
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Jesus stood up. He was seated, but here, he stood up . . .why? I believe it's because it was a testament that this stoning of Stephen was the end of the prophetic frame of time set aside for the Jews. After this event, the emphasis of the Gospel changed direction and went to the Gentiles through the ministry of Paul. "This" is what I think Romans was referring to . . .about the cutting off and grafting in . .. not about the destruction of A.D. 70.
Romans 11, was not talking about 70 A.D., it was part of it. Jesus said the house of Israel was left desolate even in Matthew 23, even before His death and resurrection. Israel was rejected far before the stoning of Stephen.
Oh, I agree, there were MANY references to what was coming . . .but I'm just saying, I don't see the connection of the 70 weeks being a time period of 70 years "and" Paul's message was not really about the coming devastation . . .it was about not taking the gift of grafting for granted . . .again . .to me that's what I'm seeing . .I'm sure others see different things.
Quote from: Nathan on August 20, 2008, 06:29:22 PM
Oh, I agree, there were MANY references to what was coming . . .but I'm just saying, I don't see the connection of the 70 weeks being a time period of 70 years "and" Paul's message was not really about the coming devastation . . .it was about not taking the gift of grafting for granted . . .again . .to me that's what I'm seeing . .I'm sure others see different things.
The coming devastation is what Jesus talked about, but Paul was talking about that Israel is desolate, which Jesus also talked about. I see your division is artificial. There is much more going on in the what I was relating, then the devastation of Israel.
I see your division is artificial. There is much more going on in the what I was relating, then the devastation of Israel
Artificial . . .not sure I follow . .you're saying the discussion is under fake pretense?
I am saying that the division does not mean exclusion. If I blind someone in the eye, doesn't mean they are blind, it means they are blind in one eye and can see perfectly in the other. I cannot formulate the problem articulately, but on a map, in an acre of land there is dirt trails, forests, lakes, rivers, and highways. Just because a person canoes across the acre on the river, another takes a dirt trail, another takes a hike through the forest and another takes the highway, does not mean they were not going through the same acre.
Quote from: SOtW on August 19, 2008, 04:21:14 PM
Yes, just coincidence. :laughing7:
What about the Catholic PURgatory? I know it's seen as unbiblical by many; but I think it's the biggest mainstream church that has a concept of a purifying fire. (=UR)
I see that as similar but not the same. If I'm correct, they believe your prayers will shorten the time of the individual's stay . .and the place they're in, the holding tank, so to speak, is not one of pain and suffering, but just a waiting place, a pleasant waiting place that you're in before going to heaven.
I see the lake of fire . . .as a place that is as unpleasant as it is complete. But if it's instantaneous as some imply, then pain may not be a factor . . .but for me, the baptism of fire that we go through now, is nothing like the baptism of spirit. One is of great power and release, whereas the other is of much personal sacrifice and tribulation of our ego as it becomes a captive to our spirit. Kind of like a breaking of a mindset . . .in most cases, it doesn't just happen in a couple minutes and then you're different. Many mind-controling issues become that way over the course of time . .it becomes a deep part of our nature and as we humble ourselves and let the spirit of the Lord do the deep cleaning . . .it's not a comfortable place to be in . . .our ego is always wanting to control and understand . . .but in the spirit realm, it's all about faith and freedom.
I, my parents have a Catholic background. No hell and damnation preachers BTW.
But I, well I got infant baptism, did communion. Am I a Catholic? By tradition at best.
Yes prayers make the suffering less bad. Also for the dead. In the dark ages you could 'buy time' from a church person so he would pray for your salvation. His prof. prayers are listened to better by God. Just linining their pagan pockets IMO. Purgatory as I know it has real flames. Not as hot as the real deal and there is a way out.
Even some story of a ladder that you can sneak out without God noticing. Knowing the pope you probly have to sell your soul for that ladder... I want to make clear this is not an attach against Catholists on this board. But more against it's (IMO) corrupt leaders.
"baptism of fire that we go through now" you mean we live in hell right now? People in Africa that starve to death. Could be seen as Hell. But the hell of the rothschilds of this world is quite plesant...
Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
It is interesting that First comes water, but beyond this there is an even greater baptism awaiting us....Christ baptizes us with His Spirit of Fire. His Spirit of Fire/Love is breathed into us......and we become an all consuming Fire just like Him....
What exactly are you saying SG?
The HS won't come to you if you aren't baptized first?
I'm kinda confused on the topic of baptism. But I think it's a subject not to be discussed here because it has nothing to do with UR. ?
Actually, the baptism topic is one of the several listed in Hebrews six when dealing with the milk versus meat of the Word. In the days of labor, being spirit baptized was one of the highest priorities of the pentecostal and Charismatic churches. It was their meat . . .but now, we're finding it's not the depth of truth at all . . .I don't want to take away from it's importance . . . I pray and sing in words my mind doesn't understand also . . . the baptism part is not about following a ritual as communion has also fallen into that same bucket. But it's really . .the water part, is an outward proclamation of what has already happened inwardly.
The spirit baptism is different in that it's what I'd consider to be your 2nd dimension experience . .it's an equipping of power to be a witness. We've always attached it with talking in "tongues". I think there still may be "some" truth to that . .but I see many people react to our "revelating" in the same manner as one would if they'd heard you speak a foreign language in the middle of a church service.
Zechariah 4 is really a perch of mine . . . it speaks about the tabernacle, but not Moses and not Solomon's . . .but the "true" tabernacle the others were patterned after. In this place, there is a picture of your lampstand with the bowls filled with oil, but the difference here is, there are golden pipes that are connected to the lampstand and to two trees through which the oil is constantly flowing . . .in my eyes, this is the completed temple . . .with no required labor of man. The prophecy of God in Genesis 6 about no longer striving with man . . .has come to pass.
He stated there that from then on, man would only live to be 120 years . . but yet, there is only one person that I know of, who lived to be 120 when he died . .and that was Moses. Moses is patterned after the law as he's the one God used to establish it in a nation. Law is connected to labor. This is really a very telling key in how God views time. He measures it according to the SON. Jesus is the Sabbath . . .the first year following the end of 7 sabbath years . . .a sabbath year came every 7 years, same as a Sabbath day . . .so after 49 years, the 50th year, everything would be returned back to the original owner. It was a year of restoration for the nation of Israel.
If you take 120 and multiply it by a Sabbath year . . .50, you'll come to the end of the labor of man . . .6,000 . . .it's been 6,000 years from Adam to now . . .generally . . .there's a year or two give or take when comparing Jewish calendars with ours, but regardless it doesn't take away from where we are right now . ..the striving with God has come to an end and we've been called into the place of rest . .Sabbath rest. It's not an act, it's a person. So . . .if you come into rest, you also come into the baptism of truth.
In just a couple verses in Zechariah after this picture is reveal, it was delcared that upon this mountain . . .the cry "Grace, Grace" is being trumpeted . . .it's the message of all who are UR . .and will soon be the cry of every denomination that let's God transform their thinking.
Zechariah 4
1And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
7Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
What does this have to do with the baptism of fire? For me, if you can't see the realm of rest in this passage, you can't hear the message of grace is now being decreed and proclaimed. The "reason" one "can" and "does" enter into this realm is because they "have" been baptized by fire . . the carnal belief systems are being burned away from us . . .our minds . .or our egos put up a defense . . .the fire of purity clashes with the logic of man and this is where you get your thunderings from . .and earthquakes. God's realm is beginning to manifest in ours, creating a change of atmosphere within us.
It still boggles my mind to see that through these forums, I've found there are people out there that have been in this for decades . . . even now, it's exciting and lonely at the same time. Being "under" a denomination, I don't know what it feels like for many of you who are not bound by doctrinal orgainizations. I know, I can easily step down but there are two things that are holding me back from that . .one is . . .I have a wife and four children . .two are teenagers, two are twin toddlers. The house we live in is the church's . .if I step down, we become homeless.
But I've already counted the cost on that one early on when I began to realize my message has become one of denominational heresy. The other thing holding me back is my purpose for being where I am. I don't think God has finished his purpose with me at the moment, so until he releases me, I'm staying.
I'm just saying . . as much as we do have freedom in the house on any given service . . .there is still this cloud of wonderment of what my superiors would do if I tried to extend this freedom message to them . . .I have an overnight reservation with our district pastors in a couple weeks . . .they're wanting each of us to share . .good grief . . . you guys know how this works . . .once you start . . . things take on a life of their own and the next thing you know, your whole field is on fire.
Either way, I love where God has me . . . I wouldn't change a thing.
Quote from: Nathan on August 21, 2008, 04:18:16 PM
He stated there that from then on, man would only live to be 120 years . . but yet, there is only one person that I know of, who lived to be 120 when he died . .and that was Moses.
Even today people live to that age I think. But they are always 'worldnews'. You know oldest man/woman articles.
IIRC blood is constantly renewed. Such a regeneration cycle of all blood takes some time and has a max. of regenerations.
Total 120 years.
QuoteIt still boggles my mind to see that through these forums, I've found there are people out there that have been in this for decades . . . even now, it's exciting and lonely at the same time. Being "under" a denomination, I don't know what it feels like for many of you who are not bound by doctrinal orgainizations. I know, I can easily step down but there are two things that are holding me back from that . .one is . . .I have a wife and four children . .two are teenagers, two are twin toddlers. The house we live in is the church's . .if I step down, we become homeless.
But I've already counted the cost on that one early on when I began to realize my message has become one of denominational heresy. The other thing holding me back is my purpose for being where I am. I don't think God has finished his purpose with me at the moment, so until he releases me, I'm staying.
I'm just saying . . as much as we do have freedom in the house on any given service . . .there is still this cloud of wonderment of what my superiors would do if I tried to extend this freedom message to them . . .I have an overnight reservation with our district pastors in a couple weeks . . .they're wanting each of us to share . .good grief . . . you guys know how this works . . .once you start . . . things take on a life of their own and the next thing you know, your whole field is on fire.
Either way, I love where God has me . . . I wouldn't change a thing.
Hi Nathan
again Bro, thanks for sharin some.
you are where you are because for now thats where your to be..dont sweat it.....heha..and ive sure been to that place where your whole eild on fire..but that was some 14 yrs back bud.
Ill be thinking of you and yours
Blessings
T
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2008, 11:52:19 PM
What exactly are you saying SG?
The HS won't come to you if you aren't baptized first?
I'm kinda confused on the topic of baptism. But I think it's a subject not to be discussed here because it has nothing to do with UR. ?
Thanks for your reply WhiteWings......IMHO water baptism has everything to do with UR. It is a symbol of our Spiritual death burial and resurrection in Him. To be born of water is the beginning.......but to be born of the Spirit/Fire is the ultimate reconciliation.......it is the end. He gives us His Spirit with Fire.......it is much the same as how the union of Fire and Sand (dust of the earth) make Glass. Glass must be "Clean" in order for His light to shine through.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:12)
But Baptism is also part of ET. So what I was actually trying to say it has nothing to do with how UR differs from ET.
Isn't that what this site is about. At least that is what I understood from Martin when he occasionally states that this board has be cut down in size by request of Gary.
StainedGlass.... sure you get clean someday :thumbsup:
But since the topic is allowed I'll ask my question.
I was born Catholic. I had infant baptism. Two drops of water on my forehead. After that I was 2 times in curch as a figure of speech.
Does that count as baptism. Firstly there was no commitment from my side. I see it no more as a thanks from my parents toward God. (or just social pressure)
And sprinkling doesn't even look like a water grave.
Is it an insult to God when you get baptised when you are not really commited. You know "If it doesn't work it won't harm either."
As a pastor, I've had a couple people from time to time come and ask if I would sprinkle or bless their babies . . .there was a time when I would almost smirk at the idea and explain to them no way no how. But now, I still explain to them the meaning of what water baptism is, and like you say, it does require the participant to not only have a say, but have an experience, and in most cases, once you explain that to them . .they give you a look like . . ."you're kidding! Why didn't anyone tell us this!" And then they've changed their minds about it. I also have told them if they would like us to do a baby dedication, it's about the same thing to us . . .it's just the church family testifying they receive the new life into their family as God's gift to all of us kind of thing.
Having said that . . .I'm not against the sprinkling either, if the parents or grandparents insist, I'm learning that to be effective in being Christ to others, that also sometimes means that my beliefs really aren't as important as letting these people feel the warmth of God's grace on them. So . . .bring on the baby . .we'll baptize it for ya, the church knows there's no actual baptism happening, but they also know that if we say no, the people will become offended and we've lost our opportunity to be Christ to someone.
The flesh will still wrestle with this sometimes . . . which may be why I like to watch shows like "ultimate fighter" on tv . . .teaches me how to use submission holds on my head. :bgdance:
Quote.teaches me how to use submission holds on my head.
:mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo: :LH:
Quote from: SOtW on August 19, 2008, 08:36:43 PM
Okay you are going to need to slow down. There are fires that have nothing to do with purification, but were symbols of God's wrath, or judgment.
I guess this verse qualifies as wrath:
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Strong:
1614 tyrIp.G" gophriyth {gof-reeth'}
Meaning: 1) brimstone 1a) of judgment (fig.) 1b) of Jehovah's breath (fig.)
This verse is about purification:
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
2303 qei/on theion {thi'-on}
Meaning: 1) brimstone 1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
I'm aware the topic was fire and not brimstone; but because fire and brimstone so often appear together I used brimstone to link fire.
So reading the Englisg translation the red word seem to say that judgement=purification.
The blue word reminds me of Genesis 2:7 about the breath of life.
Can the same breath be destructive and life giving?
Back to brimstone.
I'm well aware brimstone is translated from 2 different words. Hebrew and Greek. Do they have exactly the same meaning?
Does the meaning of brimstone vary between Greek and Hebrew?
I would like some explanation/thoughts on that.
1614 tyrIp.G" gophriyth {gof-reeth'}
2303 qei/on theion {thi'-on}
I love it , Thanks Whitewings , for this thread , I am finally starting to ''getit '' a few things anyways
now to just be able to type a simple thought lol without being all over the place lol
I have been so close to knowing what the Lake of Fire is , within my heart an excitment of bing , the light went on
and here is what drew me so close in an in depth study one day
I saw that the angels [ messengers ] of God sent to teach , preach speak the very Words of God and the Lord made them flames of fire [pur] or not these being the messengers angels/ spirits of satan adversity
and with a few verses show that the Lake is NOW burning as many gather for or against the LORDS WILL / DESIRE
Psa 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.
That garment in psalms is Jesus Christ / blood covering from the foundation of the world , just very well hidden till the Time / Cross
but was always in effect Gods Grace is and was always
here in Hebrews its proven lol ..
Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
[Who] laid the foundations of the earth, [that] it should not be removed for ever.But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
the place that really made me think and dig in is when Peter went a warmed himself by the fire !! big clue in that little piece .
now of the Fire of adversity /wrath anger etc .. was showing the tongue as the little member that Kindles the course of hell , this was the time Peter was denying Christ ! Him being sifted like wheat by satan /adversary ........
I put them descriptions down below for refernces to'' kindle'' , to fasten to /to'' join in with'' to me for more descriptive understanding , gettin it lol
so I see that Gods wrath does still abide/ dwell in the disobedient contrary , and them not even knowing/gettin it ! anger wrath verses/sides with or love grace kindness etc..
Pro 26:21 [As] coals [are] to burning coals, and wood to fire; so [is] a contentious man to kindle strife.
Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke.
men are as trees [ to they are symbolic of either the tree of knowledge of good and evil [both within] or the tree of life that is a FIRE /PURITY LIGHT KNOWLDGE OF GOD , GOD IS A COMSUMING FIRE
Isa 10:16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire. Isa 30:33 For Tophet[meaning Tophet or Topheth = "place of fire"!!the same as 8611 .topheth
.1) act of spitting, spit
1) a place in the southeast end of the valley of the son of Hinnom south of Jerusalem. Same as 08613
WORLDLY Tophet: a drum; betraying
] [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
to me this place/worldly below the burning is still going on .......
and can be concidered a very good or bad thing , just depending on ones thinking of it
Isaiah speaks of who can dwell in the continual burnings ? firey trials ? maybe Peter said dont think it strange to go through them
I see them as metaphorically speaking our constant times of enduring or overcoming or even failing the Fire /trials of faith bro !
Mar 14:54 And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.
Luk 22:55 And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were set down together, Peter sat down among them.
a heated discussion to me / not so much a literal fire lol but so many see it as literal still that carnal mind is all they got to think with ya know ! till the Lord comes to them and changes/working with them to become spiritual beings
Jhn 18:18 And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself. Kindle1 Strong's Number: 681 Greek: hapto
properly, "to fasten to," is used in Act 28:2 (in the most authentic mss., some mss. have No. 3), of "kindling a fire." See No. 2. Note: Hapto is used of "lighting a lamp," in Luk 8:16; 11:33; 15:8. For the Middle Voice see TOUCH. 2 Strong's Number: 4012 681 Greek: periapto
properly, "to tie about, attach" (peri, "around," and No. 1), is used of "lighting" a fire in the midst of a court in Luk 22:55 (some mss. have No. 1). 3 Strong's Number: 381 Greek: anapto
"to light up" (ana, "up," and No. 1), is used (a) literally, in Jam 3:5, "kindleth;" (b) metaphorically, in the Passive Voice, in Luk 12:49, of the "kindling" of the fire of hostility; see FIRE, A (f). For Act 28:2, see No. 1, above.
I so hope this was not to confusing or scattered all over the place
I try , but I still fail at explaining what I am trying to say
God help :(
Quote from: rosered on October 04, 2008, 06:06:30 PM
Hi my favorite house! :reachout:
(the house wasn't really evil. It was sick of adultary..)
QuoteI love it , Thanks Whitewings , for this thread , I am finally starting to "getit " a few things anyways
now to just be able to type a simple thought lol without being all over the place lol
I have been so close to knowing what the Lake of Fire is , within my heart an excitment of bing , the light went on
Same here. If you aren't already doing that I would advise you to look up the meaning of the key words. It helped me a lot understanding things. And especially linking verses. Far from perfect. But it feels like a start.
QuotePsa 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.
Dividing His angels?
3852 hb'h'l, lehabah {leh-aw-baw'} or tb,h,l; lahebeth {lah-eh'-beth}
Meaning: 1) flame 2) tip of weapon, point, head of spear
Perhaps to far fetched but I think 'spear head(ing)' is a military term for a certain tactic breaking enemy lines.
And there is some sort of war between good (spear) and evil (enemy lines)
The angels are the weapons of God.
QuotePsa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
[Who] laid the foundations of the earth, [that] it should not be removed for ever.But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
the place that really made me think and dig in is when Peter went a warmed himself by the fire !! big clue in that little piece .
Can you give me the verse about warming by the fire Rose?
QuoteIsa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke.
men are as trees [ to they are symbolic of either the tree of knowledge of good and evil [both within] or the tree of life that is a FIRE /PURITY LIGHT KNOWLDGE OF GOD , GOD IS A COMSUMING FIRE
I read it slightly different.
An example. PURe coincidence of names.... :laughing7:
If a rose is thrown in the fire only the thorns (evil) is burned.
The beautiful flower (good) is preserved.
briers, thorns and thickets are all bad things in the forrest (good) of God.
Genesis 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Thorns are part of the curse(d earth)
So simply put the fire burn, purifies, cleans away the bad elements and leaves the sinles part untouched.
QuoteI so hope this was not to confusing or scattered all over the place
I try , but I still fail at explaining what I am trying to say
Sometime it's hard for a theacher to reach down to the :dsunny: student
Quote from: rosered on October 04, 2008, 06:06:30 PM
I have been so close to knowing what the Lake of Fire is
There are whole sites on that topic but here is what I 'collected'
Some of the verses are a shortend. Every verse is about God. My conclusion is that the lake of fire is God.
The devine washing machine.
Fire breaks down complex elements (religion/doctrines) to the most basic elements (childlike faith)
Purifying.
Genesis 15:17 .... behold a smoking furnace (God), and a burning lamp (God) that passed between those pieces (cut up sacrificial animals).
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Ezekiel 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, .... saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about ....
Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Isaiah 4:4 .... and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isaiah 4:5 .... a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
1 Chronicles 21:26 And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.
2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Psalm 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his (God) nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire
Matthew 3:11 .... whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mark 9:49 - 10:1 or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
1 Corinthians 3:13 .... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him (=love); if he thirst, give him drink (=love): for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire (=love) on his head.
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Hi WW ,
Isis put them verses about peter warming himself by the fire
Mar 14:54 And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.
Luk 22:55 And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were set down together, Peter sat down among them.
a heated discussion to me / not so much a literal fire lol
so glad you get me WW! I was not going to say a thing lol,
great verses about the fires amen!
and I have looked into the greek and hebrew and the strongs etc , and your so right it does make a difference :happygrin:
God love ya ! rose