They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

[Taffy]

Let me ask you this:  Do you believe that there will be a literal kingdom of Christ ruling on earth?

Molly Read it as you will but the definition is sig----nify by use of symbols

For mine Molly...THE ANSWER to your question is NO.. :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Let me ask you this:  Do you believe that there will be a literal kingdom of Christ ruling on earth?

Molly Read it as you will but the definition is sig----nify by use of symbols

For mine Molly...THE ANSWER to your question is NO.. :icon_flower:

Well ok, that answers some things.  Then how do you read Daniel 2?  What does it mean?

[Taffy]

For me Molly , for years Ive heard various interpretations..got raised on em...in that , each Kingdom is an Era to follow , then another , then another.

anyways...Briefly I cant help to begin see this as the completion of Man..4( WORLD creation)  Kingdoms which are earthy by nature, thats US MOLLY.

Its our FLESH which must be crushed so the spirit can LIVE.....EVERY ONE HAS SEASON Molly..this is US TOO

Dan 2:21   And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Dan 2:22   He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. WHO DOES HE give wisdom and Knowledge to MOLLY..HIS OWN ....HE is the wisdom of GOD,and the TRUE LIGHT of KNOWLEDGE...its Him in US Molly...the false KING is us,...and that King has to be removed for US TO WHERE HIS CROWN...

Thats the essence what I see Molly....Not as Kingdoms In the world But MEN , US the flesh.

:icon_flower:

[Molly]

Yes, I agree--the kingdom of God is within.  But, please explain these other details, because these kingdoms being described are the great civilizations of the world, are they not?:


This dream is showing what will happen in the 'latter days:'  It's showing the future of kingdoms ruling the world  to Daniel and the king.  It's describing these kingdoms all the way to the last one.  God is telling Daniel what will happen.


28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.


and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.


39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided;


While these kings are still around--God will set up his own kingdom which will never be destroyed.


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:


A stone uncut by human hands will break the other kingdoms in pieces, and also the kingdom of God will do the same.  What is the stone?  How will it smash the other kingdoms?   What are the feet of clay? And, how will God's kingdom break apart the other kingdoms? These kingdoms will be totally eradicated.  What will they be replaced with?


34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.


35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them:

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Then the stone becomes a great mountain which fills the whole earth.  What does this mean?  How does it fill the whole earth?  What is the great mountain?


and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

[Taffy]

Molly ...I wasnt looking at the Literal Kingdoms...., that was the Point. :icon_flower:..

:icon_flower:

[Molly]

But the dream is describing literal, historical kingdoms which ruled the world, including that kingdom of Daniel's time, Babylon.

Actually, it's a dream of prophecy, so starting with Babylon, the dream describes correctly the great world's kingdoms to come in the future.

You are just ignoring that?

[Taffy]

what would these Kingdoms be Molly .....First the natural the the spirtual is how it always is, Irrespective.

[Molly]

In the natural, they would be Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome.

What about the kingdom of God in the natural?  Do we see that in the ministry of Jesus and the pentecostal ministry of the apostles?

What is the stone that smashes the feet of clay?  What is the mountain that fills the whole earth?

[Taffy]

.

"What about the kingdom of God in the natural"? 

Mat 21:42   
if you will we have the shadow( physical) being the LAW (OLD C ), then the spiritual reality in The NEW,Christ is the Hearts of men

Do we see that in the ministry of Jesus and the pentecostal ministry of the apostles?

Not for mine,but im not 100% sure what your implying

What is the stone that smashes the feet of clay?  What is the mountain that fills the whole earth?

Mat 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?


Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 21:44  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder

2ND..The HOLY mountain, the one in Tibet :icon_flower:sorry had to get that In Molly.

Christ In US and Us in HIM ,Filling OUR earth Molly again I see this as OUR new Body NOT the WORLD outside as you see it.

[Molly]

Christ In US and Us in HIM ,Filling OUR earth Molly again I see this as OUR new Body NOT the WORLD outside as you see it.

Again, I have no problem with that and agree with it.

But, how is this to play out?  Just a few here and there bringing the light of Christ to a world of darkness, ruled by satan, ruled by lies, greed, and murder?

If that were so, I'd say--well, just give it up now.  Satan's won.  I don't care who or what you think satan is; he's won.

Or is Christ, the anointed spirit of truth, going to inhabit so many humans that they will rise up and crush satan's feet of clay with the truth, ushering in a new era where Christ rules the entire world?

We look at all the wonderful qualities of Jesus combined with the very capable qualities of man and ask, what would that world look like?


Isa 2
4And He shall judge between the nations and shall decide [disputes] for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Rev 21
4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."



15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Rev 19

[Peacetroll]

Do you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?
Paul wrote the following long after Jesus had ascended to the Father, His Power. He reigns in hweaven, and not on earth yet as Paul said. There is someone else in control here.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Paul certainly didn't think the day of the Lord was at hand, let alone within you.
What one who is in Christ has within is the ernest of our redemption, the Spirit of Christ, making us say Abba, Father, without fear.
I know you know what ernest is about. If you have property you want to buy, you make a down payment on it as proof that you are in ernest about the transaction. Exactly what the Holy Spirit, Jesus does, for we are bought with a price. We get the whole of His Spirit, Christ in you, at His coming. The grace of God, by His choosing, not ours.

[Molly]

Do you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?

No lol.  I think I'm the janitor now.

I think I'm that servant whose master has gone away to a far away country, leaving me charge over a few talents.

I think, I hope, I am the bride preparing myself for his return.


Philippians 1:20
According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

[Taffy]

Do you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?
Paul wrote the following long after Jesus had ascended to the Father, His Power. He reigns in hweaven, and not on earth yet as Paul said. There is someone else in control here.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Paul certainly didn't think the day of the Lord was at hand, let alone within you.
What one who is in Christ has within is the ernest of our redemption, the Spirit of Christ, making us say Abba, Father, without fear.
I know you know what ernest is about. If you have property you want to buy, you make a down payment on it as proof that you are in ernest about the transaction. Exactly what the Holy Spirit, Jesus does, for we are bought with a price. We get the whole of His Spirit, Christ in you, at His coming. The grace of God, by His choosing, not ours.

Sorry Molly...Later,

Do you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?

OK PT,
Ill answer these questions later..BUT first, what do we Reign OVER?....and what is a ROD of IRON?

answer these..Ill answer Yours OK..The we can move on to the latter part if you wish As we say Here "The balls in your Court" :icon_flower:

[Peacetroll]

 A rod of iron means absolute authority, and the power to enforce the the rule of God on earth.

Psalm 2:8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.  

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.[ The purpose of the thousand years]

The rule of the saints is all over the earth, doing then what Jesus said we would be doing to bring His salvation to all Adamic human beings..

John 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Have you ever wondered why He doesn't do what soever we ask now? Because now is not the time for this to be so, the thousand years is the time.

The saints return with Jesus to go into all the world for Him. He is the King of kings.

Obadiah 1:21
And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Malachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Matthew 13:49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

Personally, I am excited about JESUS returning to REIGN in HEAVEN... when He presents ALL to YHVH, which enable the ETERNAL permeation of Him in ALL...

He is already reigning in heaven.  He is is sitting on the right hand of God.

I agree completely that He is indeed REIGNING in HEAVEN... and that HE IS sitting on the RIGHT HAND of GOD... which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD...

I wish to apologize to ALL, ...for not being clear in my statement above... as Martin was also puzzled at my words and upon re-viewing them, I can see I was not clear in my wording of my heart...

My excitement is about CHRIST reigning OVER ALL in HEAVEN...

Not just the FEW which follow Him in this moment, ...and any given moment IN TIME...

When YHVH has placed ALL below His feet... and ALL rejoice in His KINGSHIP together...  Hope that sounds a little clearer...

Not His return to THIS WORLD, but the RETURN of ALL to HIS WORLD... HEAVEN, ...ETERNITY...

Peace...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  :icon_king:

He has picked the DAY and HOUR... it will not come one second BEFORE, nor one second AFTER the moment HE has chosen, and is irregardless of the doings of MEN... whether they be "straightened up" or not... 

Actually, I think that the day and the hour is fluid--depending on us--which is why Jesus couldn't give it.  Unlike others, I believe that we do have a role, however small it might be, in our own destiny and the destiny of the world.

You above, negate the foreknowledge of GOD... and make GOD's RECONCILIATION and JUDGMENT subject to MEN and their doings... Please...

GOD has decided the DAY and HOUR, ...it was decided by His Declaration of the END from the BEGINNING, done by HIS WORD...  not by MEN continually putting that DAY and HOUR on the "BACK BURNER", by their folly... :rolleye:

Peace...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[Taffy]

Do you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?

Yo Bro ,  ....The answer IS YES...SHALL we ponder the Scrips a Little and let them HAVE THEIR say?...

A rod of iron means absolute authority, and the power to enforce the the rule of God on earth.

Right lets get this Right...REIGNING with a Rod of IRON?..BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY DONT,

Did you KNOW paul had  THIS ROD, or was it a ROD of FRESH AIR?...but you say we dont have it NOW...it was around in Pauls time and IS now..PRAY READ the preceeding Verses...agh..but you  throw Paul out the window dont you come scripture..

1Cr 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and [in] the spirit of meekness? .

Again I ask You...what ROD is THIS,,,you say authority..I agree, ROD is WORDS of authority...TAKE YOUR pick...do I SPEAK With HARD words of authority or  do you want me to SPEAK word in the MEEKNESS of the spirit, for I can DO BOTH....sorta, the HARD way or the easy way,,get the picture PT

The rule of the saints is all over the earth, doing then what Jesus said we would be doing to bring His salvation to all Adamic human beings..

No bro yet again more of your words..

you realise that we will reign with HIM as KINGS AND PRIESTS,..im sure you agree, but scripture actually tells us what we reign over....YOU JUST may find what it says in there ,to be "DEATH"..thats right PT we Reign over DEATH IN us( WORLD= EARTH = US)

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Ephes 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light

Romans 6:4-5 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

we are KINGS crowned IN HIM and priests purified by HIS BLOOD...HIM..NOW PT,....

[Molly]

we are KINGS crowned IN HIM and priests purified by HIS BLOOD...HIM..NOW PT,....

And, what about the rest of the world? Are they just lucky to be oppressed, starved, and killed? What about those who live in cardboard boxes and use the sun for light, plunging into darkness at sundown?  What does the king and priest have to say about that?

Is there any hope for them?  Or are they just on the wrong side of the equation?  Can they be king and priest, too?  When?  Do you have anything to do about it or say about it, king?  What can you do for them?

[Taffy]

we are KINGS crowned IN HIM and priests purified by HIS BLOOD...HIM..NOW PT,....

And, what about the rest of the world? Are they just lucky to be oppressed, starved, and killed? What about those who live in cardboard boxes and use the sun for light, plunging into darkness at sundown?  What does the king and priest have to say about that?

Is there any hope for them?  Or are they just on the wrong side of the equation?  Can they be king and priest, too?  When?  Do you have anything to do about it or say about it, king?  What can you do for them?

Wowza....First disprove what Was proposed BY scripture Molly....for its scripture we are discussing.

[Molly]

well, let me ask a different way.  You said you are reigning over death.  Are you reigning over death for a reason?  Does that reason include anyone else or the world in general, or just yourself?

[Taffy]

well, let me ask a different way.  You said you are reigning over death.  Are you reigning over death for a reason?  Does that reason include anyone else or the world in general, or just yourself?

Man do actually read the scrips MOLLY....they tell you...Try again.

yes there is a reason Molly its called acKnowledging our TRUE IDENTITY.

we go back Home Molly recognising WHO we are, Thats what I see , being OUR reward NOW, THAT ETERNAL LIFE being NOW, FOR those who KNOW LIFE( Christ) LIVE IN LIFE..Its HIS plan Molly, ALL FOR HIS GLORY, not ours, we will not change on thing which he has ordained...as willie  has stated a few times...

HE will have mercy on all, but for many I do not believe it will be in this realm ,

[Molly]

yes there is a reason Molly its called acKnowledging our TRUE IDENTITY.

I'm not sure what scripts you're talking about but I wouldn't dispute this, necessarily.  However, even though this might be wonderful, it seems a little....useless...even futile.

Given the mess that's out there in the world, maybe even ...selfish.

But, Jesus was not useless.  He pressed into the crowds, healing the sick, feeding the hungry, making things better for everyone except the rulers---he was in their faces, calling them out for the vipers they were, leading to his death.  Could that be the point?  Is that our real identity?

Could reigning over death mean I could change the world because I am no longer afraid--what's the worse they can do, kill me?


Hebrews 2

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

[laren]

IMO, I think that symbolic language doesn't only refer to "inner workings" but also can refer to real literal events, that have spiritual implications (fulfilled in HIM).  This is an interesting article from a preterist site. 

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/home.htm

click on eschatology link on the left, then heaven and earth passed away

[reFORMer]

we are KINGS crowned IN HIM and priests purified by HIS BLOOD...HIM..NOW PT,....

And, what about the rest of the world? Are they just lucky to be oppressed, starved, and killed? What about those who live in cardboard boxes and use the sun for light, plunging into darkness at sundown?  What does the king and priest have to say about that?

Is there any hope for them?  Or are they just on the wrong side of the equation?  Can they be king and priest, too?  When?  Do you have anything to do about it or say about it, king?  What can you do for them?

Mostly because I want it very much, to see what it would be like, a world of people (though still fallible) worshipping God and generally doing His will, things so very much more in order, a kind of Edenic world . . . so while I believe in a yet future period on the earth when God with a metamorphosed people rule with Him over those still reproducing in Adam, His kingdom is already here in any who have the Holy Ghost.  What will come is an outer manifestation of what words about it now largely apply to an inward reality.

People in cardboard boxes?

I've been homeless several times.  This was toward the end of about a six month period of winter homelessness in the late 70's, going from New York to Chicago to Minneapolis areas.  I went on north to where I knew in about a month there would be a several gatherings of believers in their tents, RV's and the buildings of what had been a Civilian Conservation Corps camp in the earlier part of the 20th Century.  Something like old time camp meetings, 350 to 500 people worshipping Jesus and hearing great teachers (Richard Wurmbrand was there one year) an a donation basis.  It was sleeting and I had tried to lie in a ditch to rest deep in the night.  It was so uncomfortable I got up and walked on to where I saw a dirt road.  Hoping to find a barn I followed it towhat proved to be a barn.  With a rubber mat I'd found over me, I gathered straw and tucked it in around me.  I was awakened in the morning by a whining dog whose stomach I could hear was upset at my being there.  He got a fellow that asked me what I wanted.  It was an Indian boy with a rifle.  I explained how God had helped me to find a place to sleep and where I was headed, which I knew had water, though no one was there yet.  They invited me in and gave me coffee and bread while we talked about God.  Meanwhile the place kept filling up with more Indians.  I asked them why.  They told me they had never heard of a white man that lived like I did so they were coming to see me.  I invited them over to the meetings.  Free food too! in about a month.

I went on through the forest, as they directed me to go the back way.  As I went the birds flocked high up in the great trees over me, going along with me and just ahead of me.  In their little peep and chirpy voices they kept saying over and over, "The LORD goes before you.  Praise Him.  He's good. God makes a way for you.  Thank Jesus.  Jesus makes a way before you" and such like.  When I got there and raised up from getting a drink in the dinning hall there was a man there that startled me.  He said, "You can't be here."  I answered back, "How can that be since I'm already here?"  He answered, "I know that . . . what I mean is, why are you here?"  I explained and he told me I couldn't stay there.  I went on to let him know I had nowhere to go.  I was harmless.  I loved Jesus and it would be good for me to fast and seek God for a few weeks.  It would be our secret.  "Please don't tell anyone.  Just let me stay."

He said, "Come with me" and took me to a ministry that had about 35 people living on an adjacent property.  I ended up being there about a year, helping out with the three convocations at the camp, and seeking God with other brothers and sisters.

Was the kingdom of God being realized in my life?  I think so.  Yet I pray I should not have to be homeless again.  I'm so much older and it's so much harder.


---James Rohde

[Nathan]

OK . . .time to jump in . . .I've read the entire conversation from the beginning . . .took a long time . .got a little frustrated . . . felt like I was watching a grudge-match at times and through all of it, there has been a warring of words going on . . .it's a prime example of what Jesus himself was talking about.

Jesus spoke in parables . . .we all know that.  He said one thing, but meant another.  The people around him tried to take everything he said literally . . .it didn't work.  The reason it didn't work was because there is no life in the flesh . .in the natural meaning.  I'm sorry if this steps on your toes, but there is just no life in the fact that my Bible tells me it's a sin to use the Lord's name in vain so I'm going to make sure you understand why your swearing is wrong.  There is just no life at all to this type or style of conversing.  Nobody is being set free.

Freedom comes when one just lets go . . .stops trying to "do" and just "be".  You are not righteous because you spent hours of fasting and reading about righteousness . . . you are not spiritual because you pray hard and study your Thompson Chains on spirituality.

You can not mix oil with water and expect to get an even blend of the two . . .they'll never congeal  together.  You can not take a spiritual truth literally . . .it's not the intention of God to give his word life in you.  This is not opinion, your very conversation is evidence.

Taf and H . . .try as you will, explaining a spiritual truth to natural minds isn't going to get them to see any clearer.  I love what you guys have said, I respect how hard you've tried, but they've made it clear . . .even though Jesus himself would not speak literally, even though we're called to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, even though Jesus said his words are "spirit" . . .even though John 1:1 states the Word is not what's on paper, but it's Christ himself . . . until people read these things with their hearts instead of their heads . . .it's just not going to happen.  They've made it clear . .they are going to take it literal.  So . . . if their minds have chosen this route . .just love them and let them go.

Okay, Molly and others who have supported her . . .this is not about who's right or wrong . . . this is about the ability to see beyond the words on a piece of paper or in a book.  This is why many times there was a phrase "he that hath an ear . . ."  It's a call to those who see what lies beneath the surface of what's been said.  Remember when Jesus was crucified and resurrected . .he was with his disciples and they were all excited because they thought that the reason he resurrected was so that he could set up a literal kingdom on earth . . .they still thought he was going to overthrow the Romans and take back the land . . .

When Jesus got on the boat with the intent to "pass to the other side" which is another spiritual picture . .. and as he got on the boat he warned the disciples about leavened bread . . .they thought Jesus was mad they forgot the food . . and he was talking about the Pharisees . . . this isn't meant to be a rebuke, but just an observation . . .this confusion, this frustration will not clear up until you lay your head down and let your heart lead . . .receive the seed . . .you don't have to understand it . . .your mind wants that control over you . ..but your mind, my mind . . .our minds do not have the capacity to comprehend spiritual truth. 

Knowledge is not what sets you free . .it's truth.  Knowledge is not Truth.  Your Bible is not truth . . . it points to truth, but it, in and of itself is not truth.  If you choose to only accept what lies on the surface of those pages, that's fine, but you can't expect to go into the deeper things of Truth when you embrace the signs pointing to the deeper things.  They're just signs . . .the Bible . .it's a precious thing, but it's just a sign pointing to Who Truth is. 

You're using your sign to beat each other up . . .it was never meant to be used as a weapon against other saints .  .it's just a sign . .a billboard  . . Everything that Taf and H have been trying to explain to you, comes from what God had "revealed" to them "beneath" the surface of Scripture . . .everything "you" have been trying to explain to them God has revealed to you on the "surface" of Scripture.  There's nothing wrong with that . . .you need to know the surface before seeing what lies beneath. 

But the clash comes, when you establish yourself on the surface of Truth and try to grasp the things that lie beneath . .the only way you'll be able to see those things is through the grace of God . . .and . . .by letting go of the surface . . .until then, the arguing will never end.

Gotta go back to work.