Elect or no elect?

[WhiteWings]

The elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, are all those who choose Jesus as their Saviour in obedience to God's plan of redemption for the human race through Christ's death and resurrection (CP 1 Pe 1:3-12, 18-20 with Jn 3:14-17; Ro 3:21-26; Eph 1:3-13; 2:4-10; 3:1-12; 2 Th 2:13-14; Tit 1:1-3; 2:11-14; He 2:9-14). For a more detailed study on this subject see also comments on Mt 13:10-11, 20:16, Jn 3:36, 6:37, 12:37-40, Ac 13:48, 28:23-29, Ro 8:28-30, 9:7, 9:10-13, 9:14-18, 9:19-21, 11:2, Eph 1:3-6, 1 Jn 2:2.

I don't understand why there is an elect. To me it seems a bit unfair that "Only those drawn by the Father can come to Jesus"
So those that aren't been drawn end up in 'hell' for purifying; because no matter how hard they try they can't reach Jesus.

Little feedback please.

[martincisneros]

The elect are those elected to an office.  We're elected to work with Christ in the delivery of the rest of mankind via 1Timothy chpt 2 prayers for all men, whether living or deceased.  1Timothy 2 does start out saying that prayers, supplications, intercessions, and givings of thanks should be unceasingly made for all men and for kings and those in authority so that the Church can have peace.  Christ simply delegated some of the responsibility.  I mean this reverently, oh so reverently, but when you're in a delegation situation such as with our having all authority and power in the earth via the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the whole New Testament, Bread, and Cup in our mouths at all times, it's still Jesus's tail with the Father if a single individual didn't come in on Father's time-table.  It's God's game, God's rules, God's outcome.  Hmmm... You're right.  It's not fair.  It's grace :Sparkletooth:

[Molly]

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

--Mat 7



Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Mat 5:9

[Dallas]

The elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, are all those who choose Jesus as their Saviour in obedience to God's plan of redemption for the human race through Christ's death and resurrection

Those who are chosen by God, the elect, are those who chose God?

To be elected by God means He appointed, He chose! How can His choice be someone elses?

In God's foreknowledge He selected some, He elected some before the foundations of the world! How is this in anyway even reotley tied up in man's choice?

IMO- You are misreading some scripture....

John- "You did not choose me, I have choosen you!"
"I am the truth the life and the way, no come to the Father except through ME."
"Now come to the Son unless the Father first draw Him."
"And I, if I am lifted up, I will draw all me unto me."

Ya...some choice.

[Dallas]

2 Corinthians 5

"He died for all therefore all have died, and He was raised on thier behalf."

Ephesians 2

"1And you were (A)dead in your trespasses and sins,

   2in which you (B)formerly walked according to the course of (C)this world, according to (D)the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in (E)the sons of disobedience.

   3Among them we too all (F)formerly lived in (G)the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were (H)by nature (I)children of wrath, (J)even as the rest.

   4But God, being (K)rich in mercy, because of (L)His great love with which He loved us,

   5even when we were (M)dead in our transgressions, made us alive together [a]with Christ ((N)by grace you have been saved),

   6and (O)raised us up with Him, and (P)seated us with Him in (Q)the heavenly places in (R)Christ Jesus,

   7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing (S)riches of His grace in (T)kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

   8For (U)by grace you have been saved (V)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (W)the gift of God;



The elect is all people, all were dead in sin, all were made dad in christ, all were made alive in christ... through His foreknowledge, all people were elected to come into His glory through the sacrifice of the cross.

[martincisneros]

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

--Mat 7

It's not of him who wills or of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.  The narrow road that leads to life and the few that have found it are Jesus Christ alone, or one might include the prophets who foretold His coming.  Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" or in other words: the outer court, the inner court, and the Holy of Holies.  And the only reason Jesus found life was to be the dispenser of it to those on the road leading to destruction.  Some are on the road to destruction, and some are on the road to life.  100% true.  But are the few finding life merely on a life boat floating away from a sinking Titanic, or are they being trained as Navy Seals to go back and rescue everybody else?  Is God the Creator of duality or the reconciler of all things?

[Mickiel]

Well I must say I hold a different view of the Elect. God has drawn a line, and every human is in that line, the elect are just the first in line. And God does NOT need them to help him do anything, that belief is a human determination. The Elect are NOT called to help God teach this world anything, that Job is totally covered by the Holy Spirit. Its just a line, an order of nessecerary position, somebody has to be first in line.

The Line was drawn, or predestined human history, and each human selected, was selected because God wants this line to start somewhere. The calling of God is situational and historical. If and when he begins this line, those placed in it , are ONLY placed in it because they were born into that time and history, there is no other meaningful reason for God to select a human, outside of this. Unless you would like to gloryfy the human, and claim God called them because of their characther.

God built the characther, he didNOT select according to their self built esteem.

Oh but those who think themselves called or selected, will naturally think they were called because of THEIR ways. So they interpit this accordingly.

Peace.

[Molly]

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

--Mat 7

It's not of him who wills or of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.  The narrow road that leads to life and the few that have found it are Jesus Christ alone, or one might include the prophets who foretold His coming.  Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" or in other words: the outer court, the inner court, and the Holy of Holies.  And the only reason Jesus found life was to be the dispenser of it to those on the road leading to destruction.  Some are on the road to destruction, and some are on the road to life.  100% true.  But are the few finding life merely on a life boat floating away from a sinking Titanic, or are they being trained as Navy Seals to go back and rescue everybody else?  Is God the Creator of duality or the reconciler of all things?

The few are finding the narrow road because they are searching for it.


And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

--Jeremiah 29:13


The few are meant to represent Christ to us, as we build the kingdom of God on this earth.

In mem.  Mon. Oscar Romero

[martincisneros]

The few are finding the narrow road because they are searching for it.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

--Jeremiah 29:13

But what is on that narrow road?  Self preservation or the recovery of all?  When we find Him, what are we finding?  An Implacable Judge or the Saviour of all who saves by judging what's evil and removing it forever from His Creation?  He's the destruction of evil, and the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe.  Same word "especially" as when St. Paul's asking for his stuff to be brought to him, especially his parchments so that he could devote much of the time in the days before his martyrdom to reading.  He's the Saviour of all men, not exclusively of those that believe, but especially of those that believe.  If He's the Saviour of all men, how much more is He going to save those that believe?  But what is their belief?  A self preservation belief?  Or a belief in the Saviour of all men??  Our politicians, our doctors, our philosophers, our entertainers, and our grocery managers are incapable of removing the evil and suffering of the world, but there's One Who can, Who will, and Who has declared that He must for His own Name's sake.  After all of these evils, we're promised in Ezekiel, those who've been His enemies during the eons are going to KNOW that He's YHVH.  There's something so precious, tender, and holy in that, that His knowledge is promised even to His enemies; that His Son of righteousness will arise with healing in his talith even for His enemies.  Jesus said that this was because He was perfect.  Jesus said that we're to love our enemies and to do good to them so that we'd be like our Father in heaven.

[Mickiel]

Dealing with the calling of God, pride in that calling leaves no room for understanding of what election really is. 1 Pet.2:7," This precious value, then is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, ( Or those NOT called) The stone which the builders rejected, THIS BECAME the very cornerstone." People didnot believe even Christ was called, THAT disbelief BECAME the cornerstone, or MOST important part OF the calling of God. The most important part of the calling of God, ARE  those NOT called! THEY are the unseen importance of God, not those called.

If you elevate those who are first in line, then you miss the foundation of the building of Salvation. We are NOT called to teach the world, but to SUPPORT the world, and be a cornerstone of Salvation, not a glorification of our calling, or our position. And people who elevate themselves will stumble on this.

Heres a question I would ask of anybody who considers themselves called of God, or elected by him. And I doubt I will get an answer.

Why did God call you? Explain to me why you consider yourself elected?

I think we should be able to explain ourselves. Now, why did God elect you.

Explain that please.

Peace.

[martincisneros]

I'm not sure if it's so much pride as short-sightedness.  I'm fully aware of my calling, election, anointing, etc., etc., but I stand beside St. Paul in saying that all that that does is offer me as proof of God's commitment to reclaiming all life everywhere.  I'm just proof that He's after all of 'em.  I'm curious on anyone's perspective on this one regarding 'election': 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (2Peter 1:10 KJV)  Is it the "half truth" of Arminianism that to what degree the Holy Spirit is able to operate in your life is dependent upon a certain amount of the atmosphere that you create?  Perhaps had I quoted the whole chapter, it would have helped to muddy the waters further, but most of the people who visit his website have a Bible.  Every translation I've seen so far does seem to present a grocery list of things related to inheriting the promises.  Some would interpret that as relating specifically to the promises related specifically to this life that aren't necessarily directly related to the Universal Restoration.  But what do you think about this passage on making your calling and election sure??  Does it relate exclusively to this life rather than "the next?"

[Mickiel]

I'm not sure if it's so much pride as short-sightedness.  I'm fully aware of my calling, election, anointing, etc., etc., but I stand beside St. Paul in saying that all that that does is offer me as proof of God's commitment to reclaiming all life everywhere.  I'm just proof that He's after all of 'em. ?"

Since you are proof, then explain why I am to believe you are elected. Also explain to me why God called you. Why? You should at least know why, since you have claimed it as proof.  What makes you aware of what God has done? Not withstanding only you, but any of you who claim this? You easily make a list of scripture  to explain yourselves to others, will you then give me a list of reasons you know God has called you?

I am egar to hear this, and examine your proof of your calling. Am I to take your word for this, and that be good enough? Whats good enough for you, is not good enough for me. Prove all these things, or do you feel it needs to be viewed in another manner?

And I offer this to any of you, all of you who have taken the throne of being a firstfruit.

Because I see differently.

Peace.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Mickiel,


You bring up a very good point.   I sometimes wonder about myself what I am doing at times.  I sometimes get goose bumps as I read something,  get some insight on a scripture, then in the next breath I can bark at my son because he did something annoying.  I can contemplate the anger I have for someone that hurt my feelings and then see what a hypocrite I am when I look at the things I do, think, want and the carnal things, horrible things, I might entertain.

Some believe, because they say they believe and think they get some great insight from God that they are the elect.   I wonder, do we really know who the elect is?

What makes someone the elect and has God given us the right to declare it for ourselves?

While I do not fear Hell,  I am leary to boast of my spirituality,  I may be confident in an argumental stance in a forum, but when I look in the mirror and read Jesus words about the heart........

I know the score.

[Mickiel]

Mickiel,


You bring up a very good point.   I sometimes wonder about myself what I am doing at times.  I sometimes get goose bumps as I read something,  get some insight on a scripture, then in the next breath I can bark at my son because he did something annoying.  I can contemplate the anger I have for someone that hurt my feelings and then see what a hypocrite I am when I look at the things I do, think, want and the carnal things, horrible things, I might entertain.

Some believe, because they say they believe and think they get some great insight from God that they are the elect.   I wonder, do we really know who the elect is?

What makes someone the elect and has God given us the right to declare it for ourselves?

While I do not fear Hell,  I am leary to boast of my spirituality,  I may be confident in an argumental stance in a forum, but when I look in the mirror and read Jesus words about the heart........

I know the score.

Well yes, its easy to make such assumption. By the power of self, we claim the things of God and will even consider our own words as holy. We then think about nothingelse other than how holy we are. Someone comes along and ask for evidence of the holiness, and we dismiss that and bend back  into ourselves.  I want to show you something, and use this place as example, since they feel themselves as examples of Gods Holiness. I can tell by their claims, that they depend on their claims, which taste good to them. Oh but God has a definte way of establishment, it is described in Jobs life,. but not in theirs.

Seeping with pride, they establish themselves, but their is no escape from the truth. God communicates in his way, but the way of man is deeply rooted in himself. The people who view themselves as elected, are deeply rooted in strong standards of self, thinking them ways of God. It does not bother me, they have their heels into themselves.

None of them can make an announcement outside of themselves, none will respond.

Because if they do, the truth will be made known.

The suggestion was made that the topics on board were dull, you think that Gods Spirit will relax and get dull? 

No, no, the hearing of the people is dull.  And Jude gets into  that, which I will show.

Peace.

[martincisneros]

I know I'm elected in the same way that Enoch, Noah, Abraham, David, Isaiah, or anybody else would know.  Difficult to get into specifics of my life without coming across to somebody as a pompous donkey's behind, which I'm not.  But these threads never go away short of another board crash, and this is one of the boards that's open to anybody wandering by for a read.  It's not hard, and neither is it some deep mystery.  Jesus said that if you'd do what He told you, then you'd be His disciple indeed and you'd know the truth and the truth would make you free.  I personally don't see how anybody could be a disciple without being elected.  Perhaps in some strange Calvinistic doctrine somewhere that might be possible, but with the Bible that I read everyday I've not found the distinction within it's pages.  The elect would have to have the Holy Spirit, according to all that St. Paul said regarding the seal of the Spirit and the covenant cut of circumcision that's not made with hands and that's not in the physical body.  1John says that we know that we know that we know certain things through the Holy Spirit that He's given to us.  There's not a single thing that I could do or say to prove to another human being that I'm among the elect.  I'm not worried about that. I'm only bothering to reply to this lest someone else that's elect, but young in the Lord were to ever stumble through what Mickiel has said here, as though there weren't any real way of knowing, when that's preposterous because of what the Scripture that I'd previously cited says from 2Peter chapter 1, verse 10.  You can make your calling and election sure by keeping the commandment of love -- which is the bottomline of 2Peter 1.  He said that you can be established in the present truth by doing these things.  I can't conceive of someone being established in the truth of the Gospel that's not among the elect.  Again, election isn't an opportunity for "I thank God that I am not as other men," which Jesus specifically denounced.  It's so that you'd take your part alongside of Him in setting the rest of Creation free.  And I'm daily active in fulfilling all of the particulars that our Lord has assigned to me personally where my portion of His commission is concerned.  Salvation is by grace through faith, according to Ephesians 2.  2Peter 1 indicates that being elected is by being grounded in the Word and living out the lifestyle of Jesus Christ as a participant of the divine nature.  That's why St. Paul could say in Romans 9-11 that not all are of Israel who are giving lip service to it, because they were rejecting Jesus and then later St. Paul's ministry in His Name.  They were the elect by birth, but they were selling their birthright in his day to appease the Romans and their religious authorities.  It wasn't convenient to be associated with Jesus Christ.  So, St. Paul said that they stumbled at the stumbling stone, but not so as to fall beyond recovery.  We shouldn't boast of our election, according to those 3 chapters in Romans because if God didn't spare them their falling away because of their obstinance, then neither will He allow us to stand without faith.  We stand by faith in our election, therefore as both 2Peter 1 and Romans 9-11 would declare to us.  Romans 10 says that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.  So, I keep hearing and hearing in the realization that faith doesn't come from having heard.  I don't want anything from a penny in my pocket to the health of my body if it's produced by anything other than the Word of God.  If the Word won't produce it, I won't have it in my life.  Plain and simple.  I live by the Book.  If the Book's unreliable then none of us have been found by God yet.  Plain and simple, though we'd be of all men the most miserable 'cause it's the Book that assures us of the resurrection.  Election's not hard.  His yoke is easy and His burden is light.  The moment it's not easy and light any more, then you're drowning in something else, either human, carnal reasoning or something else, religion or whatever.

[Molly]

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?  It is God that justifieth.

--Romans 8:33

[Mickiel]

Well I certainly disagree that the elect would have to have Gods Spirit, I sure disagree with that. The elect are being built up in preperation of receiving Gods Spirit, and must spend an awful lot of time without it. And thats why they stumble, because they do not have it. The calling of God, is not the election of God, because many are called but few of them are elected. One could lead to the other, but its the presumption of this thing that confuses the many called. The called of God, assume to themselves that they are elected, because they know they are called. They are Kings before their time.

Now I can't push anyone off of that prideful throne, but God is able to. Why should I try to take back an election that someonelse has taken. People take elections all the time, and then try to rule as if they were elected. And they will fight to keep that throne.

This is what I see the people doing, and they are people of God. They are called. They are experiencing vistation from the Spirit, but they can't come to grips with the Spirit of truth about their calling. They claim election, because they are not able to discern Gods Spirit good enough to humble themselves and understand they do not have it constantly. Its the emperors robe all through and through. They believe they are clothed with Gods Spirit, but really they are naked.

Its so easy to see nakedness in peoples Spirit, and so like us to claim we are not naked. Who told you that you were naked? Telling someone that they are naked, is like telling someone they do not have Gods Spirit. They get offended.

I am not looking to cause offense, Martin thought the board was boring so HE looked to shake it up. If I wanted to do that same thing, it would be quite different, and people would be hurt.

I am not looking to hurt, only to share.

Peace.

[WhiteWings]

Well I must say I hold a different view of the Elect. God has drawn a line, and every human is in that line, the elect are just the first in line. And God does NOT need them to help him do anything, that belief is a human determination. The Elect are NOT called to help God teach this world anything, that Job is totally covered by the Holy Spirit.

God indeed doesn't need any help with anything. But He can make a choice that He wants help.
Wasn't Jesus helping God? And the apostles helping Jesus and God?
Is the TentMaker site helping God? I think it is. But perhaps God 'manipulated' the mind of the site owner to start the site....

The Line was drawn, or predestined human history, and each human selected, was selected because God wants this line to start somewhere. The calling of God is situational and historical. If and when he begins this line, those placed in it , are ONLY placed in it because they were born into that time and history,

There where many people born before before the Gospel came available world wide. If you haven't heard of the Gospel you can be elected either is my guess.

WhiteWings, the newbie, isn't sure about the following but everyone that's not in the first wave of elect is getting an 'age of correction in hell'
It almost sounds like God draws a few number out of his hat full of lottery tickets; and who doesn't get elect is gets 'hell'.
Can things really be that random?


BTW are the elect the 144,000 mentioned in the Bible?

[reFORMer]

It's easier and clearer to quit using the transliterated word "elect" from (if I remember) Greek electoi.  It means "chosen."  Too many doctrines of men surround the meaning of the "elect."

Scripture says, "Many are called, but few are chosen."  The call goes out to all, but those God chose are a Royal Priesthood, endued with power from on high (Elyon) by the anointing of the Holy Spirit.  That function was what Adam abandoned.  "And the LORD God called (made a crackling [static?!] noise) unto Adam, and said unto him," Where art thou?" (Gen 3:9)  He had failed to dress and keep the garden and now was AWOL.  Men have their agendas to recover Paradise; but, Christ has already accomplished that Restoration or Salvation and more.  By the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit He has placed Paradise in His chosen to expand it into the rest of creation.  They are functioning as appointed to deliver others hiding from guilt and lost from wrong teachings to come into line with God's plan.  Those not heeding the call are working on other plans.  Because many who've begun to experience salvation by the Holy Spirit are immature, influenced by handed down error and caught in laying the foundation again and again (with religious media) they have not realized what they are "saved" for and allowed usurpers striving to bring about false utopias to occupy the place of dominion that God appointed for His chosen.

Romans 8: 6-11:
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[sparrow]

I think everyone is "elect".

[Mickiel]

I think everyone is "elect".

The elect of God are not chosen by their determination, but Gods. Now if you ask any person who thinks they are called , why God called them, what can they say? They may think about it, but thats all they can really relate to. I think its over relation on their part, not Gods. People who feel themselves elected are making a " Self determined claim", and thats how I view that. I think any person truly elected by God would NEVER claim it, and thats how I personally see it. Not the end time elected. They will not have to, the Holy Spirit will do it for them. The claim will be prepared for them, not by them.

God will determine it.

Peace.

[WhiteWings]

I know I'm elected in the same way that Enoch, Noah, Abraham, David, Isaiah, or anybody else would know.

But doesn't the Bible state that Christ says to many Christians that thought 'they made it' "Go away I never have known you!"

Why can't that 'you' mean you Martin? How can you know. Many feel also elected by satan, allah, the mashmellowman etc But are they right.....?

[WhiteWings]

Elected, selected, called, chosen, picked, apointed, etc, etc
For me that's just playing word games that don't answer my questions.
Not only in this thread but also in other threads. And to be honest, right now, it shows me clashing 'story lines' in the Bible.
I'll try to summarize that:

- I'm supposed to follow the 10 commandments (among other rules)
- But I can't because I'm a sinner.
- I only can when the Holy Spirit comes into me (or whatever the correct term is)
- So I start searching for Jesus/The Spirit/God/Bible.
- But I can't because God is supposed to call me;
- because I have no free will to search.
- So someone that breaks all the rules 100x a day in the most barbaric way just can just play the "no fee will" card as an excuse.

When I add up all the above I get:
"100% of humanity deserve age-during correction; but God picked out 2% so they can avoid that terrible correction."
or
"I, God, who created you as a sinning slave without a free will am going to punish you because you acted the way I designed you to"

[Mickiel]

I know I'm elected in the same way that Enoch, Noah, Abraham, David, Isaiah, or anybody else would know.

But doesn't the Bible state that Christ says to many Christians that thought 'they made it' "Go away I never have known you!"

Why can't that 'you' mean you Martin? How can you know. Many feel also elected by satan, allah, the mashmellowman etc But are they right.....?

Again, it does not matter who you ask, its really how they answer that is the determining factor. Those bold enough to answer, are bold enough to claim the calling. If God called me, why should I announce it to the world, or convince others of the calling. It falls to God to convince me of his calling, it will be a personal annointing. A light given, and that light will shine for itself.

Its like someone asking me am I a black man. If the obvious color of my skin does not convince them, why should I waste time in trying to? I don't care who does not accept that I am a black man. I know that I am, and its " Obvious" that I am. The election of God is MORE Obvious than this. EVERYTHING about the elected one will SHOW Gods election, it will speak for itself. Conversely, we have problems with the oppisite, we refuse to see the obvious signs that we ARE NOT elected, because the pride in the calling, is stronger than the humility of it.

Peace.

[WhiteWings]

But why may people not say they are called.
By having made over 600 post on this board you also adverstise you are a Christian.
Who cares? Why not keep it a secret?
A large part of your life is communicating with people. Don't you ever talk to the people in your neigeborhood besides "Hey, I'm black and that's all you need to know about me."
The fact that your are black is so obvious noone would argue with that fact. But many other things are not so obvious.
The fact that you stated you are black is strickly speaking of no use on this board. It would be on a KKK forum.
So I think saying you are called is relavant on a board like this. But because personally I feel absolutely zero of a link with God and because the quoted verse, I asked what I asked Martin(and others who feel called)