Jesus brother Jude.

[Mickiel]

Jesus had a brother called Jude, who some have called Judas or Jacob, and he was an interesting man with some keen insights. I wanted to look at the book of Jude and examine this mans words, some of which are the most severe in the N.T. Jude dealt with Apostacy in the church, and it was the Holy Spirit itself that prompted Jude to write what he did. He urged the believers to contend for the Faith and gives some keen insight into false teachings, which I think will be of intrest to understand.

In vs.3 Jude talks about " Our Common Salvation." How it was " Once", for All, delivered to the saints. This is interesting because it shows salvation to be " Common and for All." Salvation is not complicated, its a general thing, simplification. And what is generality? When you render General to its root base, its simply abstract Universalism. Its the collective thought, broad and widespread, common means Universal. Common Salvation means Universal Salvation, can you see that? To think in general is to think common, or to think Universal.

So Jude expresses how Universal Salvation was " Once", " Delivered for All." Notice in vs.2 he states," May Mercy and Peace and Love " Be Multiplied to you." Interesting, when you multiply Mercy and Peace and Love, whatelse but Universalism could that equal? And I want to look further into this.

Peace.

[Raggedy Anne]

Mickiel,

Interesting points.  Never thought about that before.  I do agree that the book of Jude is one of the "severe" sounding books in the NT.  I heard a Universalist message on it a long time ago that was talking about how some men/women are going to "play a very evil role" in this present world (which seems apparent).  But that they will be 'corrected' in the resurrection.   I certainly don't understand it all.  Oftentimes everything just seems way too complicated to me.

Good to see you here.

Anne

[Mickiel]

Mickiel,

Interesting points.  Never thought about that before.  I do agree that the book of Jude is one of the "severe" sounding books in the NT.  I heard a Universalist message on it a long time ago that was talking about how some men/women are going to "play a very evil role" in this present world (which seems apparent).  But that they will be 'corrected' in the resurrection.   I certainly don't understand it all.  Oftentimes everything just seems way too complicated to me.

Good to see you here.


Well they get too complicated for me as well, so I just keep pressing the prayer for understanding on God, its about all I know to do. He does respond to us, and gives a little here and there , and we need every bit of it and more. In one sense, God is " Addicting Us to his Spirit of Understanding", creating Spiritual Addicts who are in constant need of him. This Word of God can be way too much if we overdose on it, it can blow our minds if we try to gulp it down. We have the advantage of time, and shouldnot rush this thing into ourselves. I am considering doing a peice on that, " Gulping Down Gods Word", as if its junk food, and how that can actually junk it up from our greed. Too much of it can have adverse reaction, and I think that could be one reason why God slow feeds it. You can hurt a baby by feeding it too much, because the natural reaction is to want more.

In Jude 4 it mentions certain persons who have crept into Gods flock who have turned the Grace of God into " Licentiousness". This is when a believer feels " Its their Right to Understand Gods Word", so they take the prerogative to authorize their understanding, as being Gods understanding. And this is the root of the " Name it claim it aittitude and movement." The belief that God has given you a " Prescription to the Truth" and that you have been entitled to it. It then no longer is an act of giving grace by God, but God allowing you to understand because you somehow deserve it. And from this an aittitude of boldness is born and one could slip into even denying Christ, or changing Christ meanings and converting what he has said, into your own meanings.

Look at Jude 5," Now I desire to remind you, though you know All Things once for All." This again is Universalism, or one having the Knowledge before hand that all others do not yet have. This is what having the " Oracles of the Truth " means. What we know, is not for ourselves, but for all of mankind. So its good and humble to understand that you do not know and complerttely understand all this stuff, it can be complicated. Because on the other hand a person could react to this by swelling their head and pride in their knowledge. God is good at being a " Speed Bump" and he knows when and how to slow us down for our own good.

And Jude does get severe in his explicid examples, notice latter part of verse 5, " Subsequently  destroyed those who didnot believe." This is a severe saying, its relating a God who destroys for not believing in him. This could give the wrong picture of God, " Well if you don't believe in me, then I'll kill you." Because God didnot destroy them BECAUSE of their unbelief, he destroyed them because they were in the way of the believers. God wanted history to go on in a predestined manner, and just willnot allow anything to get in that path and block his will. Why should God kill people for not believing in him? Who needs his Salvation more, believers or unbelievers? I think unbelievers need it far more.

What Jude is doing is giving historical examples of unbelief and rebellion, and I want to get into that.  Peace.

Anne

[Raggedy Anne]

Mickiel,

Thanks for those insights into Jude.  I was greatly mislead for many years by listening to many men who use God's Word improperly - who 'run ahead' of Him, as it were.  I have only myself to blame for relying on men, being too afraid to go to God for understanding.   I used to 'tune in' to all sorts of bible teachers on television years ago.  What is amazing to me is that they're still in the business of peddling God's word after having done so for decades and devouring the flock.

It has been a joy to watch you grow in grace since I first crossed paths with you.   I was just thinking about another thing God showed you a while back, about how much sarcasm has taken root in our society - a very bitter root.  And when I read that, I knew it was so, but hadn't quite been able to put my finger on it.   

I've been off any Christian boards for a good while now and have grown pretty luke warm, which I'm not happy about.   It's a privilege to have a computer and be able to log on and find a little bit of fellowship with a brother. 

Bless you.
Anne

[Mickiel]

Mickiel,

Thanks for those insights into Jude.  I was greatly mislead for many years by listening to many men who use God's Word improperly - who 'run ahead' of Him, as it were.  I have only myself to blame for relying on men, being too afraid to go to God for understanding.   I used to 'tune in' to all sorts of bible teachers on television years ago.  What is amazing to me is that they're still in the business of peddling God's word after having done so for decades and devouring the flock.

It has been a joy to watch you grow in grace since I first crossed paths with you.   I was just thinking about another thing God showed you a while back, about how much sarcasm has taken root in our society - a very bitter root.  And when I read that, I knew it was so, but hadn't quite been able to put my finger on it.   

I've been off any Christian boards for a good while now and have grown pretty luke warm, which I'm not happy about.   It's a privilege to have a computer and be able to log on and find a little bit of fellowship with a brother. 

Bless you.
Anne

Well thank you, I recall the peice on sarcasm but I never save anything I write. Sarcasm is part of satans ingrained feeding of the human physce, and he uses it to train up his influence in the way that he wants it to go. He wants the world to have and maintain as much of a negative outlook as he can draw into them. One fruit of Gods Spirit, or one of the charactheristics of God himself, is Joy. God is always happy, always positive and holds a very good outlook on things, so he predestines that outlook into reality, so reality will match himself. Well evil is just the oppisite, it looks to predestine a dim and negative outlook on things. In Jude 6, this is part of what it means for angels who didnot keep their proper abode and they abandoned their own domain. Theirs is the negative existence, theirs is the ugly sarcasm, their domain is evil and they want to spread it outside of themselves and put it into humanity. Humanity is not the domain of the darkness, but the darkness has left its domain, its unruly existance, and has come into the domain of men.

Earth is the proper abode of humanity, the darkness is the proper abode of these angels of the darkness. Jude says that God has kept them in " Eternal Bonds" under darkness for the judgement of the Great Day. Now to me, this signifys just how great a force such as their evil really is. ALL the damage and influence wrecked upon humanity has been committed by these angels who are " Actually Restrained!" Think what they could do if they were loosed and unrestrained. And that time is comming, the bible speaks of them being let loose in Revelations. Thank goodness it will be for only a short, Godly monitored time.

So then being restrained as they are, they look to do damage by " Influence of the human mind." They mess with our aittitudes, our pathology, which ties into our moods and infects how we communicate. Sarcasm is one of the " Surgical implants" that they incorporate into how we think and communicate, and it really expresses how these angels feel and think, and communicate with each other. I mean THEY are in Hell NOW, as we speak, hell is really created for them, not us, its their domain, 2Pet.2:4. They are actually there now, and its one reason why they are projecting hell belief into humanity, they want us to join their misery.

And I want to go further in Jesus brother Judes stimulating unorthodox letter.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Jude in  5-7 goes through historical examples of unbelief and rebellion. Even using Sodom and Gomorrah and how gross immorality gripped them and subsequently, as an example, God destroyed them by fire. Jude called that the " Punishment of Eternal Fire". The residents of the city are not currently burning in this fire, it was a one time judgement from God. I tend to view this fire, or judgement,  as Malachi views it in 4:1 The Fire burns like a furnance and leaves nothing but chaff, which is worthless lightweight matter, or ashes. It was an undergoing of Judgement that God "exhibited in example", or it was an exhibition meant to be seen, not an eternal ongoing penalty that no one will ever see again. The Consumming Fire that Isaiah 29:6 speaks of, reflects also Gods Judgement. The Judgement itself is not ongoing, it consumes or dissipates, wears away and God is done with it. Gods business with it is dispenced, done with, not reserved for more of the same.

Eternal lasting punishment would exhaust Gods patience, he would grow tired of the tedium and yawn at the boredom of his energy being misused by the misery. And people don't understand this about God, many of his judgements are for examples to humanity AND examples to Angels. And Jude wavers back and forth, interphaseing his dialog between humans and angels. He kind of projects," Let God handle this stuff", his judgements will secure humanity, which is what he meant in vs.9 when he wrote about Michael the Archangel, " The Lord rebuke you", or God will judge you, not me. Eternal fire is Gods expression, Gods Judgements, Gods move, Gods authority, Gods wisdom and Gods mercy, its all GODS! But when we humans try to discern Gods Judgements , which we truly do not understand, then we misjudge what God has done and will do. Thus we do not discern his Fire.

Jude 10;"But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they " Know by instinct", like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed." Unreasoning animals, or a being with no consciousness, or no consciousness of Spiritually discerned things. We reason the punishment of eternal fire by our own instinct, or human reasonings. Anytime we examine a judgement from God, with human reasoning, WE revile the Judgement automatically, we profane our own perception, because its Gods judgements, not our understanding of them. Gods judgements are issued from a standpoint of HIS Holiness and cannot be correctly understood by a human, they just cannot. God has to manifest the example to our minds, or explain himself to us. Something done out of sacred righteousness, requires those who would understand it to have some of that in them too! And thats why we don't understand.

Without God lifting up our understanding, we are likened to unreasoning animals, holding no counscious of the truth. The fire in Sodom and Gomorrah is no longer burning, its out. The JUDGEMENT God passed on them is OVER and done with. Because the Fire came from God, Jude called it eternal, because it came from an eternal. Eternal fire would have to be commisioned by God, and ONLY used by God, it is not commisioned by our understand of this. If God makes an " Eternal Judgement", that would be a " Railing Judgement" and I don't personally believe that either we humans or Angels are even privy to understanding if and when God does that. Even Michael in vs. 9 wouldnot " DARE" pronounce a railing judgement against the devil. A railing judgement is to cause a result which could include punishment. The punishment is not elevated and could be enclosed to human understanding. Only God can utter such a thing, use such language followed by a type of curse. Biblical writers cannot pronounce curses. And that needs to be understood. These men were moved to say these things. And we need not try to speak these judgements on the world. Yet we have preachers doing it everyday, dareing to pronounce Gods judgements on others. Rebuking others and so on. They revile the things they really do not understand.

They see the phrase " Eternal Fire or punishment" in the bible and its as if a hell light goes off in their head, which tells THEM to rebuke sinners.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

In Jude 11, " Woe to them, for they have gone the way of Cain, and for " Pay", have rushed head long into the error of Balaam." Or doing what you think was right. Here God is communicating with you, but your zeal is so stubborn, that you just do your own thing. And I want to go into this " Error of Balaam", or the complications of self righteousness.  Peace.

[Mickiel]

In Jude 11, " Woe to them, for they have gone the way of Cain, and for " Pay", have rushed head long into the error of Balaam." Or doing what you think was right. Here God is communicating with you, but your zeal is so stubborn, that you just do your own thing. And I want to go into this " Error of Balaam", or the complications of self righteousness.  Peace.

Balaam was a typical hireling Prophet, seeking only to make a market of his gift. This is " The Way of Balaam" ( 2 Pet.2:15). Having a heart trained in greed, making a profession of preaching and teaching. One of the charactheristics of false teaching is that they can only see the " Natural Morality", and cannot discern the deeper things of God. They are ignorant of the Higher Morality of Vicarious Universal Atonement, by which God could be just and yet still justify the unbelieving sinner. Spiritually Balaamism in teaching never rises above natural reasonings, in practice, and its easy world-conformity. Its people who believe in and want to serve God, Balaam tried to do that. I read his story and it seemed that way to me, but somewhere along the line, Balaam let the offers of money get to him. Other teachers of God used him as an example of some negative things, yet he was a Prophet of God. His prophecies are rather  interesting, I think.

It seems to me that in Balaams prophecys, God testifies " On Behalf" of his people, rather than speaking " To Them", which I view as very interesting. A people can be morally bad, but God will speak things from a " Discipline point of view", which can be confused with a " Judgemental point of view." Balaam wanted God to curse the people of Israel, and make that money, but God wouldnot let him. The preachers of today are pushing and peddleing that curse of hell, and are tapping into that money. The hell message makes  money, its a market for it, and people pay to hear it, and pay to support it.

Thats an influence, with many arms branching out from it. Look at Rev. 2:14 God told Balaam not to curse Israel, so he taught Balak ways to corrupt the people instead. This is what ministers are doing today, teaching doctrines that are actually corrupting the people, and getting paied to do it.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Jesus had his brother Jude tackle certain issues. I think this is significant, Jude had to be very close to Jesus. He was his own brother, and positioned to be very keen on whats really going on in Gods mind. A family of Spiritual privledge, and a writer inspired by the Spirit to invest in the further advancement of Gods views. God manipulated Marys womb beyond Christ, AND before Christ, not just her own birth of Christ. Jesus was placed INTO a family heritage, selected and preordained by God himself, so the life of Jude was manipulated, and very much so. What Jude has to say is from a unique point of view, and shouldnot be viewed as if he is just thrown into the last statement before the book of Revelations, as if he is somewhat meaningless.

For example, Jude 12;" These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, " Doubly Dead", uprooted." Oh, oh how deadly discerned and very well spoken. The churchs of this world are having a feast day on the word of God, and these self motivated preachers are " Without fear", self confident that God is talking to them, and we often care more for what they are saying than what Gods word has to say. But they ARE clouds, they are perceived as IF they are delivering the rain, or Gods truth, yet really they are devoid of it. But the congregations think and react as if they are full of Gods water. And their getting rained on seriously and carried along by this perceived rush of the Spirit!

Jude says they ARE trees , they ARE ministers, but just not really holding the true fruit of God, like Balaam! You cannot tell the people that they are NOT ministers of God, in one serious sense, they are, just like Balaam was. They are just " Dead ministers of God!" Called to deliver a dead message, BUT STILL called of God!

And I want to share something that may really shock you. Nonetheless its true. How some of YOU are actually missing a very important message in all of this, and contribute to ignorance by thinking these ARE NOT ministers of God!

Peace.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=Mickiel link=
And I want to share something that may really shock you. Nonetheless its true. How some of YOU are actually missing a very important message in all of this, and contribute to ignorance by thinking these ARE NOT ministers of God!

Peace.
[/quote]



Well YES, certain worldly ministers ARE actually ministers of God! You maynot like this, but its nonetheless very true. AND, God may well inspire them to be and do certain things! And he willnot let you, who believe yourself inspired by him, to get in their way! You may want  to believe God is trying to get you to tear down what they have built, but your actually going against, working against his will in these situations. And in doing this, our righteousness is trying to exceed Gods righteousness and Holy purpose. Because we excert ourselves in trying to get the truth out, and often navigate into Gods Waters. Thinking God has his stamp on you, YOU neglect the power of God by assuming his stamp IS NOT on them, because of their deception! And many actual truth bearers are doing this unaware.

And listen, this is a " Spirit discerned thing", not to be taken lightly. How can YOU move a wall of God? You assume God has NOT built the wall, so off you go to tear it down. When it does not come down, you, from your own self righteousness, formulate reasonings that support YOUR view, and think God is not quite ready to tear YOUR wall down. Because your " Right" , you know, its got to be a wall that God wants to dismantle. Romans 10:3 then in this light;" For not knowing about Gods righteousness, you seek to establish your own!" The walls your truth and understanding does not tear down, ARE walls of God! Thats WHY they cannot be torn down, and the people do not understand you.

You need to listen to this, it can eliminate much of your frustrations and lack of understanding. And I want to show you somethingelse that is VERY surprising, but will be VERY helpful to you.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Notice  then Romans 9:22," What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with MUCH patience VESSELS of wrath PREPARED for destruction?" Understand that God endures things BECAUSE he HAS willed them to be! Whyelse would he  endure them? He endures misinterpitation of HIS word, BECAUSE it IS his will! The thoughts we hold about the concepts of hell and eternal punishment ARE the will of God! God HAS PREPARED them! HE prepared the scriptures on hell, HE prepared the bible message on eternal punishment, HE prepared this!

So WE seek to change his will by our interpitation of these things, and we try to prove this to the world at large, or just our contact friends who seem to listen. We then grapple with the scriptures on eternal punishment, and change them. We seek the  " Out", the other understanding in our explination.

Listen, the writers of the bible wrote according to Gods will. Even Jesus words are along Gods line of reasonings in all matters. If its IN THERE, its supposed to be in there, not explained away to fit our belief. Our belief IS NOT  Gods purpose, its just our belief. And God is NOT constrained by human belief, or the bible!

And I want to get into a most misconceived thing that this has done to our belief.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=Mickiel link
Listen, the writers of the bible wrote according to Gods will. Even Jesus words are along Gods line of reasonings in all matters. If its IN THERE, its supposed to be in there, not explained away to fit our belief. Our belief IS NOT  Gods purpose, its just our belief. And God is NOT constrained by human belief, or the bible!

And I want to get into a most misconceived thing that this has done to our belief.

Peace.
[/quote]

You ever wonder why people are confused about which translation of the bible to read? Because they have yet to enter into the area where it no longers matters which translation to read. If the Spirit of God is your translator, what difference does it really make? You get all these different translations, because you search  for things already discerned, and hold no confidence in the Spirit leading. Its because you have little real experience in the Spirit leading. With the Spirit on your mind, it just does not matter what you are reading.

And I want to detour into that.

Peace.

[jabcat]

Jesus had a brother called Jude, who some have called Judas or Jacob, and he was an interesting man with some keen insights. I wanted to look at the book of Jude and examine this mans words, some of which are the most severe in the N.T. Jude dealt with Apostacy in the church, and it was the Holy Spirit itself that prompted Jude to write what he did. He urged the believers to contend for the Faith and gives some keen insight into false teachings, which I think will be of intrest to understand.

In vs.3 Jude talks about " Our Common Salvation." How it was " Once", for All, delivered to the saints. This is interesting because it shows salvation to be " Common and for All." Salvation is not complicated, its a general thing, simplification. And what is generality? When you render General to its root base, its simply abstract Universalism. Its the collective thought, broad and widespread, common means Universal. Common Salvation means Universal Salvation, can you see that? To think in general is to think common, or to think Universal.

So Jude expresses how Universal Salvation was " Once", " Delivered for All." Notice in vs.2 he states," May Mercy and Peace and Love " Be Multiplied to you." Interesting, when you multiply Mercy and Peace and Love, whatelse but Universalism could that equal? And I want to look further into this.

Peace.

I really like this...good insight, thanks.  God's blessing, James.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Mickiel:
I am enjoying this thread!
Praise God, we have all been forgiven!
One thing I feel the Lord is showing me, quite in line with you wrote earlier:
"And God is NOT constrained by human belief, or the bible!"

Ever notice how Christian circles usually tend to believe only what's in the Bible?
If the Jews only believed the Old Testament, they would have discredited Jesus when He was 5 years old!!!! Because He was saying NEW things; He was saying things that were TRUTHFUL, even if they were contrary to the old law.
Some Jews were able to hear that truth, and discern it, and believe it.
Others couldn't accept it because it didn't "fit in" with the old law they had studied so hard.

Oh, that we would focus on Truth wherever it may be found! Because God is alive, and working, and able to do a new thing any day He wishes!
And we can either listen for His voice, or ignore it..
That's why He is the Cloud that moves, and the manna that's new every day.

Blessings to you!

Love to all,
Bri

[Mickiel]

I have written so much about how I do not believe the Spirit is in people, but only " With" certain people some of the time. And I have endured the dislike of many for saying this, but I view it nonetheless very true. And this is the message that Jude was relaying from Jesus. Jude breaks down into one very heavy stern reality, believing people think and do, as they are doing, because they really do not have Gods Spirit inside of them. Jude 19;" These are the ones who really cause divisions, worldly minded and Devoid of the Spirit." Its the people who we view as our leaders who are really able to blend their views into the body of believers, and Gods Spirit has not blended into them. They convince others that they have Gods Spirit, because they are convinced themselves about it.

What Jude warned of was a whole era of self convinced Spirit believing people, carried along by their own belief in themselves as having Gods Spirit. And this is why many of them are mockers, mocking even Gods Word, Mocking having his Spirit, vs.18. Mocking Gods Spirit means that you are deceived into thinking that you have it constantly inside of you, and I have NEVER met a believer in God who does NOT do this! Its the number one imitation of Spiritual Life! One of the most powerful deceptions of pride that I have ever been aware of. Its counterfeit downright stubborn illusion. It is vain fraudulent contemptible pretense which mocks Gods Spirit on a daily basics. It is my personal view that all are quilty of this. All have become spiritual mocking birds, and sing this claim to God.

This is why we need God to keep us from stumbling, because far too many of us are " Stumbling Over God", getting tripped up not by the things of satan, but the things of God. Instead of the word of God being a light, it itself has become a hinderance, because of how WE are trying to use it, trying to see it.

And I want to get into that.  Peace.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=Mickiel
This is why we need God to keep us from stumbling, because far too many of us are " Stumbling Over God", getting tripped up not by the things of satan, but the things of God. Instead of the word of God being a light, it itself has become a hinderance, because of how WE are trying to use it, trying to see it.

And I want to get into that.  Peace.
[/quote]


We are believers in God, thats what we are. But like babys, we stumble over topics and issues, even the word of God itself. You ever watch a baby trying to walk on its own. Its not doing anything wrong, its trying to progress and use its legs. This is what many are doing with their experience with God. They know Salvation is " Theirs", and they are walking toward it, trying to obtain it in their understanding. 1 Pet. 2:2;" Like newborn babes, long for the pure milk in the Word, that by it you may " Grow in Respect to Salvation." This is why there are a growing number of Universalist, with big heads and troubled hearts, they view themselves as having tasted this milk, and instead of becomming mature in their legs and body, their heads have swelled from all the milk their gulping down, and their stumbling from it.

Walking through life with this big head, having consumed all this knowledge, yet the Body of Christ is not formed. You can't form a church with a bunch of big headed people, their just going to head butt each other. And keep stumbling on those underdevloped legs. Not trying to do wrong, but just not knowing how to handle this milk, and believing they are ready for meat.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

I want to give a personal confession. My greatest strength, is also my greatest problem. When Gods Spirit vist me, it always gives and does very good things for me. BUT, he  willnot give me his Holy Spirit, no matter how much I ask for it, and that conversely is my greatest problem. I KNOW, and I know that I know, if I had Gods Holy Spirit inside of me perminently, it would be exactly all that I need. Everything would just change. In Jude 24, " Now to him " Who is ABLE to keep you from stumbling." If I had Gods Spirit, I would never stumble again.

Or would I?

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Jude 13;"Wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam, wandering stars,  for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever." Here jude gets cold blooded, stern and strict, which just has to be done some time. Hes lamenting on these people who are leading others spiritually, the Preist and Popes and preachers of the world. They are wandering stars, or moving around in the darkness of the space of deception. Space is dark, not light. The universe is enclosed in darkness, the light comes from the sun. When God makes an example of things, some of those things, not all of them, last forever. God has not willed that the darkness of space last forever, but if you consider that he will end forever the effects and results of sin and evil, then that has been reserved forever. He forever will end this human way of misleading each other.

And this is how we need to view Gods word, not change it, but understand it. Why would God reserve darkness forever? For what? God is making points, and when he makes perminent points, it needs to be understood in that perminence. For example, Goodness is a perminent point of God. He wants it to always be,  and its very easy to assume why. Just consider the benefits of it, then you are making room in your belief for the thinking of God. Now if you conversely consider the perminence of darkness, then you have to make room for that in your belief. And this is the human way of making room for things that we think God is considering. WE consider the darkness in the context of what WE think God will give eternity to. Gods mind is on the verge of wipeing out the Darkness complettely, which IS perminence, it is an eternal judgement, it simply will no longer be. Its a curse, this darkness, and there will no longer be any curses.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Have you ever misunderstood something? Just didnot see it, can't get too it? Well thats the darkness. Why would God want us to be like that forever? Why forever be contained in this? Is that the Tree of Life? Why grow a misunderstanding? Why have eternal growth of darkness? Why should God invest in any misery for eternity? To consider God in this light, is a consideration that is really in the darkness, which is attractive to the human concept of sticking your hand in the cookie jar, or messing with things that you think you can handle.

Let me go into the Darkness just a bit, which I do not like doing but I want you to see something in this.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

/quote]

In Phil.3:15;" Let us therefore, as many as are Perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different aittitude, God will reveal that also to you." The ONLY way to navigate through the darkness, is to have some Light, or some prior knowledge about where you need to go. To  deal with the Darkness you  have to understand the darkness, or be led through it by some understanding that you do not possess. We read the bible as if we are being led, thinking no darkness is involved. We try to navigate through its teachings ourselves, thinking we will not encounter the Darkness within the pages of the bible. Because we think we have a perfect defense to the Darkness. We don't see the " Black Ice", the Mirage that we slip on, and misunderstandings so often comes from this. Human misunderstanding is a direct result of the Darkness.

The Darkness is PROOF that God IS involved! Your Sin is PROOF of God being involved, and I would challange any teaching otherwise than this.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Consider again Jesus own words in Rev.22:16;" I , Jesus, have sent my angels to testify to you these things FOR the churchs; I AM the root and offspring of David, the Bright and Mourning Star." Do you realize how much Sin and Evil hit David? How he was engrossed into it and manipulated by it? David said he was " Maid to lie down in green pastures", conversely just as forced to lie in those not so green, its still the same equalibrium in the Spirit. He was " Made" to to walk THROUGH the valley of the shadow of Death, or to live IN the Darkness! Jesus is the root of this, ALL things were created, or begun by him! Jesus is the offspring of the Darkness, he is the one who took Job and David through it. He knows it, because he created it. He knows how much of it we can endure, because he created us too! Jesus created David, yet he is the root AND offspring of David. He then creates the Darkness and becomes Sin for all of us, he IS the root, and OFFSPRING of this darkness! AND, the offspring of the LIght.

And WE TOO, follow this set predestined route. We ARE the root AND offspring of it too. Yet the Darkness is not our destiny, but it is a part of the equation of Gods prenatal plan.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Jude says to keep yourselves in the Love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. And have mercy on thouse who doubt this, save others, snatching them out of the Fire, and on some have mercy with fear,  hating even the " Garment Polluted by the Flesh." Interesting quotes, and the Darkness  is certainly part of the Garment Polluted  by the Flesh. The Darkness is the garment humans must wear, and its toxins have polluted us all. We Live and have our being, but we must breathe the toxins in the air, so the air is a part of us. We take in our environment, and we cannot move and have our being without it. So it is with the Darkness, we are what we are and the Darkness is simply a part of that. It then becomes " Natural" for a human to be centered on self, prone to sin and opposed to God.

The only choices we really have is to carry out the desires of the flesh or to walk by the Spirit. God, who gives both Light and Darkness, is really our only hope to navigate between these two realitys. If he does not lead, then we are left to ourselves in the realm of the real human experience, a mixture of both Good and Evil, or the blending of Light and Darkness.

Many view God as comming to excute judgement according to how we have navigated ourselves through this deadly nuclear mixture. Which is simular to a human being created, then placed into water, then the creator judges them for being wet.  And I want to look at that reasoning.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

I have a question to ask. I do not question the quality of the tools God is using to do his work, but the results are going to be eternal. Thus, if the Darkness is a tool of God, then the results of it are going to be eternal. Can we view " The Eternal Darkness in this Light?"

Peace.

[Mickiel]

I have had to do some re-thinking on this subject of the Eternal Darkness. Because I think its a lot more to it than we know. I don't believe God will keep sin and misery around for Etrernity, but I do now believe that he will keep a place of Darkness, I just don't understand what this Darkness really is. Whatever it is, it is important enough to God for him to expose us to it. It is important in our creation, it is important in our human experience, and something about it has done something to tip the scales of our beginning in Life. And I am starting to believe that all of the Darkness IS NOT Evil, because the Evil comes from the beings of the Darkness, not the Darkness itself. That is if you view the " Evironmental Aspect" of the Darkness, or quote unquote, the Darkness as an environment, or a Place that exist.

I mean it could be a planet, or an asmosphere, or like the wind, just there and nebulus. It could simply be Gods power charged to the " Mysterious", or actually something God created and " Uses to create other things", as he did with humanity. I could see him keeping it around for all of eternity, simply because he will continue to create for all of eternity. I am kind of getting away from grouping all these things together, Evil, Sin and the Darkness. I think we group them together because we are prone to circumstancial learning. Our minds need certain situations and circumstances in order for us to comprehend.

And this is what is exciting about learning from God directly, because there are no learning circumstances. God has created some fantastic stuff, the Darkness is one of them. I consider Gods use of it as nothing short of extraordinary, and I want to go into a different look at the Darkness, one which seperates the Evil from it, and just consider another function, or functions of it.

Peace

[Mickiel]

Notice Jude 13;" For whom the Black Darkness has been reserved forever". This sounds erie to me, kind of like a place of nether gloom, but a definte place. 2Pet.2:17 uses this same analogy, " For whom the Black Darkness has been reserved." Jesus himself uses simular terminology in Matt.8:12, " Cast into Outer Darkness." In Matt.6:23 he calls this Darkness " Great!" In John 3:19, 8:12, 12:35 and 12:46 he refers to the Darkness and in Luke 22:53 he calls it Powerful. Now Revelations it teachs that there shall no longer be any curses, pain or death. Now if you remove these things from the Darkness, can it still exist in Eternity?

Look at Isaiah 42:16;" I will make Darkness INTO Light before them. Now Genisis 1:4, " God Divided the Light from the Darkness." Now if God removes sin and evil from the Darkness, and removes confusion from it, what would it then be? Its somethingelse about this Darkness that we just can't see. If you remove the bitter taste from most medicine, you still would have  the medicinal purpose of it in place. Its the same with the Lake of Fire, if you remove the immense heat from it, what would it then be? If you remove the nature of some animals to kill and bite, remove aggression,  what would they then be? Just a giant teddy Bear or a really big Cat. Now God is able to effect these kinds of changes, VERY capable of doing that. If you change the nature of ANY violent animal, it would become a totally different thing in our eyes. Because of the change made, we could view the same thing differently. So it is with the Lake of Fire and the Darkness. You think God is just going to change humans only?

If God uses the Darkness to create humanity, or uses it as a very real componant of our existance and as a factor in our development, why should he dispose of it? Its just a mysterious ingredient. If you eat garlic by itself, its a nasty seasoning, but if you use it correctly to flavor, it taste really good. The Darkness is something God is using, and at first taste of it, it seems very nasty, but I want to go into other ways to understand it, which will open other doors into your understanding.

Peace.